Tentmaker Forum

Jesus had a brother called Jude, who some have called Judas or Jacob, and he was an interesting man with some keen insights. I wanted to look at the book of Jude and examine this mans words, some of which are the most severe in the N.T. Jude dealt with Apostacy in the church, and it was the Holy Spirit itself that prompted Jude to write what he did. He urged the believers to contend for the Faith and gives some keen insight into false teachings, which I think will be of intrest to understand.

In vs.3 Jude talks about " Our Common Salvation." How it was " Once", for All, delivered to the saints. This is interesting because it shows salvation to be " Common and for All." Salvation is not complicated, its a general thing, simplification. And what is generality? When you render General to its root base, its simply abstract Universalism. Its the collective thought, broad and widespread, common means Universal. Common Salvation means Universal Salvation, can you see that? To think in general is to think common, or to think Universal.

So Jude expresses how Universal Salvation was " Once", " Delivered for All." Notice in vs.2 he states," May Mercy and Peace and Love " Be Multiplied to you." Interesting, when you multiply Mercy and Peace and Love, whatelse but Universalism could that equal? And I want to look further into this.

Peace.

Mickiel,

Interesting points.  Never thought about that before.  I do agree that the book of Jude is one of the "severe" sounding books in the NT.  I heard a Universalist message on it a long time ago that was talking about how some men/women are going to "play a very evil role" in this present world (which seems apparent).  But that they will be 'corrected' in the resurrection.   I certainly don't understand it all.  Oftentimes everything just seems way too complicated to me.

Good to see you here.

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on July 06, 2008, 07:26:40 AM
Mickiel,

Interesting points.  Never thought about that before.  I do agree that the book of Jude is one of the "severe" sounding books in the NT.  I heard a Universalist message on it a long time ago that was talking about how some men/women are going to "play a very evil role" in this present world (which seems apparent).  But that they will be 'corrected' in the resurrection.   I certainly don't understand it all.  Oftentimes everything just seems way too complicated to me.

Good to see you here.


Well they get too complicated for me as well, so I just keep pressing the prayer for understanding on God, its about all I know to do. He does respond to us, and gives a little here and there , and we need every bit of it and more. In one sense, God is " Addicting Us to his Spirit of Understanding", creating Spiritual Addicts who are in constant need of him. This Word of God can be way too much if we overdose on it, it can blow our minds if we try to gulp it down. We have the advantage of time, and shouldnot rush this thing into ourselves. I am considering doing a peice on that, " Gulping Down Gods Word", as if its junk food, and how that can actually junk it up from our greed. Too much of it can have adverse reaction, and I think that could be one reason why God slow feeds it. You can hurt a baby by feeding it too much, because the natural reaction is to want more.

In Jude 4 it mentions certain persons who have crept into Gods flock who have turned the Grace of God into " Licentiousness". This is when a believer feels " Its their Right to Understand Gods Word", so they take the prerogative to authorize their understanding, as being Gods understanding. And this is the root of the " Name it claim it aittitude and movement." The belief that God has given you a " Prescription to the Truth" and that you have been entitled to it. It then no longer is an act of giving grace by God, but God allowing you to understand because you somehow deserve it. And from this an aittitude of boldness is born and one could slip into even denying Christ, or changing Christ meanings and converting what he has said, into your own meanings.

Look at Jude 5," Now I desire to remind you, though you know All Things once for All." This again is Universalism, or one having the Knowledge before hand that all others do not yet have. This is what having the " Oracles of the Truth " means. What we know, is not for ourselves, but for all of mankind. So its good and humble to understand that you do not know and complerttely understand all this stuff, it can be complicated. Because on the other hand a person could react to this by swelling their head and pride in their knowledge. God is good at being a " Speed Bump" and he knows when and how to slow us down for our own good.

And Jude does get severe in his explicid examples, notice latter part of verse 5, " Subsequently  destroyed those who didnot believe." This is a severe saying, its relating a God who destroys for not believing in him. This could give the wrong picture of God, " Well if you don't believe in me, then I'll kill you." Because God didnot destroy them BECAUSE of their unbelief, he destroyed them because they were in the way of the believers. God wanted history to go on in a predestined manner, and just willnot allow anything to get in that path and block his will. Why should God kill people for not believing in him? Who needs his Salvation more, believers or unbelievers? I think unbelievers need it far more.

What Jude is doing is giving historical examples of unbelief and rebellion, and I want to get into that.  Peace.

Anne

Mickiel,

Thanks for those insights into Jude.  I was greatly mislead for many years by listening to many men who use God's Word improperly - who 'run ahead' of Him, as it were.  I have only myself to blame for relying on men, being too afraid to go to God for understanding.   I used to 'tune in' to all sorts of bible teachers on television years ago.  What is amazing to me is that they're still in the business of peddling God's word after having done so for decades and devouring the flock.

It has been a joy to watch you grow in grace since I first crossed paths with you.   I was just thinking about another thing God showed you a while back, about how much sarcasm has taken root in our society - a very bitter root.  And when I read that, I knew it was so, but hadn't quite been able to put my finger on it.   

I've been off any Christian boards for a good while now and have grown pretty luke warm, which I'm not happy about.   It's a privilege to have a computer and be able to log on and find a little bit of fellowship with a brother. 

Bless you.
Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on July 06, 2008, 12:09:33 PM
Mickiel,

Thanks for those insights into Jude.  I was greatly mislead for many years by listening to many men who use God's Word improperly - who 'run ahead' of Him, as it were.  I have only myself to blame for relying on men, being too afraid to go to God for understanding.   I used to 'tune in' to all sorts of bible teachers on television years ago.  What is amazing to me is that they're still in the business of peddling God's word after having done so for decades and devouring the flock.

It has been a joy to watch you grow in grace since I first crossed paths with you.   I was just thinking about another thing God showed you a while back, about how much sarcasm has taken root in our society - a very bitter root.  And when I read that, I knew it was so, but hadn't quite been able to put my finger on it.   

I've been off any Christian boards for a good while now and have grown pretty luke warm, which I'm not happy about.   It's a privilege to have a computer and be able to log on and find a little bit of fellowship with a brother. 

Bless you.
Anne

Well thank you, I recall the peice on sarcasm but I never save anything I write. Sarcasm is part of satans ingrained feeding of the human physce, and he uses it to train up his influence in the way that he wants it to go. He wants the world to have and maintain as much of a negative outlook as he can draw into them. One fruit of Gods Spirit, or one of the charactheristics of God himself, is Joy. God is always happy, always positive and holds a very good outlook on things, so he predestines that outlook into reality, so reality will match himself. Well evil is just the oppisite, it looks to predestine a dim and negative outlook on things. In Jude 6, this is part of what it means for angels who didnot keep their proper abode and they abandoned their own domain. Theirs is the negative existence, theirs is the ugly sarcasm, their domain is evil and they want to spread it outside of themselves and put it into humanity. Humanity is not the domain of the darkness, but the darkness has left its domain, its unruly existance, and has come into the domain of men.

Earth is the proper abode of humanity, the darkness is the proper abode of these angels of the darkness. Jude says that God has kept them in " Eternal Bonds" under darkness for the judgement of the Great Day. Now to me, this signifys just how great a force such as their evil really is. ALL the damage and influence wrecked upon humanity has been committed by these angels who are " Actually Restrained!" Think what they could do if they were loosed and unrestrained. And that time is comming, the bible speaks of them being let loose in Revelations. Thank goodness it will be for only a short, Godly monitored time.

So then being restrained as they are, they look to do damage by " Influence of the human mind." They mess with our aittitudes, our pathology, which ties into our moods and infects how we communicate. Sarcasm is one of the " Surgical implants" that they incorporate into how we think and communicate, and it really expresses how these angels feel and think, and communicate with each other. I mean THEY are in Hell NOW, as we speak, hell is really created for them, not us, its their domain, 2Pet.2:4. They are actually there now, and its one reason why they are projecting hell belief into humanity, they want us to join their misery.

And I want to go further in Jesus brother Judes stimulating unorthodox letter.

Peace.

Jude in  5-7 goes through historical examples of unbelief and rebellion. Even using Sodom and Gomorrah and how gross immorality gripped them and subsequently, as an example, God destroyed them by fire. Jude called that the " Punishment of Eternal Fire". The residents of the city are not currently burning in this fire, it was a one time judgement from God. I tend to view this fire, or judgement,  as Malachi views it in 4:1 The Fire burns like a furnance and leaves nothing but chaff, which is worthless lightweight matter, or ashes. It was an undergoing of Judgement that God "exhibited in example", or it was an exhibition meant to be seen, not an eternal ongoing penalty that no one will ever see again. The Consumming Fire that Isaiah 29:6 speaks of, reflects also Gods Judgement. The Judgement itself is not ongoing, it consumes or dissipates, wears away and God is done with it. Gods business with it is dispenced, done with, not reserved for more of the same.

Eternal lasting punishment would exhaust Gods patience, he would grow tired of the tedium and yawn at the boredom of his energy being misused by the misery. And people don't understand this about God, many of his judgements are for examples to humanity AND examples to Angels. And Jude wavers back and forth, interphaseing his dialog between humans and angels. He kind of projects," Let God handle this stuff", his judgements will secure humanity, which is what he meant in vs.9 when he wrote about Michael the Archangel, " The Lord rebuke you", or God will judge you, not me. Eternal fire is Gods expression, Gods Judgements, Gods move, Gods authority, Gods wisdom and Gods mercy, its all GODS! But when we humans try to discern Gods Judgements , which we truly do not understand, then we misjudge what God has done and will do. Thus we do not discern his Fire.

Jude 10;"But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they " Know by instinct", like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed." Unreasoning animals, or a being with no consciousness, or no consciousness of Spiritually discerned things. We reason the punishment of eternal fire by our own instinct, or human reasonings. Anytime we examine a judgement from God, with human reasoning, WE revile the Judgement automatically, we profane our own perception, because its Gods judgements, not our understanding of them. Gods judgements are issued from a standpoint of HIS Holiness and cannot be correctly understood by a human, they just cannot. God has to manifest the example to our minds, or explain himself to us. Something done out of sacred righteousness, requires those who would understand it to have some of that in them too! And thats why we don't understand.

Without God lifting up our understanding, we are likened to unreasoning animals, holding no counscious of the truth. The fire in Sodom and Gomorrah is no longer burning, its out. The JUDGEMENT God passed on them is OVER and done with. Because the Fire came from God, Jude called it eternal, because it came from an eternal. Eternal fire would have to be commisioned by God, and ONLY used by God, it is not commisioned by our understand of this. If God makes an " Eternal Judgement", that would be a " Railing Judgement" and I don't personally believe that either we humans or Angels are even privy to understanding if and when God does that. Even Michael in vs. 9 wouldnot " DARE" pronounce a railing judgement against the devil. A railing judgement is to cause a result which could include punishment. The punishment is not elevated and could be enclosed to human understanding. Only God can utter such a thing, use such language followed by a type of curse. Biblical writers cannot pronounce curses. And that needs to be understood. These men were moved to say these things. And we need not try to speak these judgements on the world. Yet we have preachers doing it everyday, dareing to pronounce Gods judgements on others. Rebuking others and so on. They revile the things they really do not understand.

They see the phrase " Eternal Fire or punishment" in the bible and its as if a hell light goes off in their head, which tells THEM to rebuke sinners.

Peace.

In Jude 11, " Woe to them, for they have gone the way of Cain, and for " Pay", have rushed head long into the error of Balaam." Or doing what you think was right. Here God is communicating with you, but your zeal is so stubborn, that you just do your own thing. And I want to go into this " Error of Balaam", or the complications of self righteousness.  Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on July 10, 2008, 03:16:07 AM


In Jude 11, " Woe to them, for they have gone the way of Cain, and for " Pay", have rushed head long into the error of Balaam." Or doing what you think was right. Here God is communicating with you, but your zeal is so stubborn, that you just do your own thing. And I want to go into this " Error of Balaam", or the complications of self righteousness.  Peace.

Balaam was a typical hireling Prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is " The Way of Balaam" ( 2 Pet.2:15). Having a heart trained in greed, making a profession of preaching and teaching. One of the charactheristics of false teaching is that they can only see the " Natural Morality", and cannot discern the deeper things of God. They are ignorant of the Higher Morality of Vicarious Universal Atonement, by which God could be just and yet still justify the unbelieving sinner. Spiritually Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings, in practice, and its easy world-conformity. Its people who believe in and want to serve God, Balaam tried to do that. I read his story and it seemed that way to me, but somewhere along the line, Balaam let the offers of money get to him. Other teachers of God used him as an example of some negative things, yet he was a Prophet of God. His prophecies are rather  interesting, I think.

It seems to me that in Balaams prophecys, God testifies " On Behalf" of his people, rather than speaking " To Them", which I view as very interesting. A people can be morally bad, but God will speak things from a " Discipline point of view", which can be confused with a " Judgemental point of view." Balaam wanted God to curse the people of Israel, and make that money, but God wouldnot let him. The preachers of today are pushing and peddleing that curse of hell, and are tapping into that money. The hell message makes  money, its a market for it, and people pay to hear it, and pay to support it.

Thats an influence, with many arms branching out from it. Look at Rev. 2:14 God told Balaam not to curse Israel, so he taught Balak ways to corrupt the people instead. This is what ministers are doing today, teaching doctrines that are actually corrupting the people, and getting paied to do it.

Peace.

Jesus had his brother Jude tackle certain issues. I think this is significant, Jude had to be very close to Jesus. He was his own brother, and positioned to be very keen on whats really going on in Gods mind. A family of Spiritual privledge, and a writer inspired by the Spirit to invest in the further advancement of Gods views. God manipulated Marys womb beyond Christ, AND before Christ, not just her own birth of Christ. Jesus was placed INTO a family heritage, selected and preordained by God himself, so the life of Jude was manipulated, and very much so. What Jude has to say is from a unique point of view, and shouldnot be viewed as if he is just thrown into the last statement before the book of Revelations, as if he is somewhat meaningless.

For example, Jude 12;" These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, " Doubly Dead", uprooted." Oh, oh how deadly discerned and very well spoken. The churchs of this world are having a feast day on the word of God, and these self motivated preachers are " Without fear", self confident that God is talking to them, and we often care more for what they are saying than what Gods word has to say. But they ARE clouds, they are perceived as IF they are delivering the rain, or Gods truth, yet really they are devoid of it. But the congregations think and react as if they are full of Gods water. And their getting rained on seriously and carried along by this perceived rush of the Spirit!

Jude says they ARE trees , they ARE ministers, but just not really holding the true fruit of God, like Balaam! You cannot tell the people that they are NOT ministers of God, in one serious sense, they are, just like Balaam was. They are just " Dead ministers of God!" Called to deliver a dead message, BUT STILL called of God!

And I want to share something that may really shock you. Nonetheless its true. How some of YOU are actually missing a very important message in all of this, and contribute to ignorance by thinking these ARE NOT ministers of God!

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel link=
And I want to share something that may really shock you. Nonetheless its true. How some of YOU are actually missing a very important message in all of this, and contribute to ignorance by thinking these ARE NOT ministers of God!

Peace.
[/quote]



Well YES, certain worldly ministers ARE actually ministers of God! You maynot like this, but its nonetheless very true. AND, God may well inspire them to be and do certain things! And he willnot let you, who believe yourself inspired by him, to get in their way! You may want  to believe God is trying to get you to tear down what they have built, but your actually going against, working against his will in these situations. And in doing this, our righteousness is trying to exceed Gods righteousness and Holy purpose. Because we excert ourselves in trying to get the truth out, and often navigate into Gods Waters. Thinking God has his stamp on you, YOU neglect the power of God by assuming his stamp IS NOT on them, because of their deception! And many actual truth bearers are doing this unaware.

And listen, this is a " Spirit discerned thing", not to be taken lightly. How can YOU move a wall of God? You assume God has NOT built the wall, so off you go to tear it down. When it does not come down, you, from your own self righteousness, formulate reasonings that support YOUR view, and think God is not quite ready to tear YOUR wall down. Because your " Right" , you know, its got to be a wall that God wants to dismantle. Romans 10:3 then in this light;" For not knowing about Gods righteousness, you seek to establish your own!" The walls your truth and understanding does not tear down, ARE walls of God! Thats WHY they cannot be torn down, and the people do not understand you.

You need to listen to this, it can eliminate much of your frustrations and lack of understanding. And I want to show you somethingelse that is VERY surprising, but will be VERY helpful to you.

Peace.

Notice  then Romans 9:22," What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with MUCH patience VESSELS of wrath PREPARED for destruction?" Understand that God endures things BECAUSE he HAS willed them to be! Whyelse would he  endure them? He endures misinterpitation of HIS word, BECAUSE it IS his will! The thoughts we hold about the concepts of hell and eternal punishment ARE the will of God! God HAS PREPARED them! HE prepared the scriptures on hell, HE prepared the bible message on eternal punishment, HE prepared this!

So WE seek to change his will by our interpitation of these things, and we try to prove this to the world at large, or just our contact friends who seem to listen. We then grapple with the scriptures on eternal punishment, and change them. We seek the  " Out", the other understanding in our explination.

Listen, the writers of the bible wrote according to Gods will. Even Jesus words are along Gods line of reasonings in all matters. If its IN THERE, its supposed to be in there, not explained away to fit our belief. Our belief IS NOT  Gods purpose, its just our belief. And God is NOT constrained by human belief, or the bible!

And I want to get into a most misconceived thing that this has done to our belief.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel link
Listen, the writers of the bible wrote according to Gods will. Even Jesus words are along Gods line of reasonings in all matters. If its IN THERE, its supposed to be in there, not explained away to fit our belief. Our belief IS NOT  Gods purpose, its just our belief. And God is NOT constrained by human belief, or the bible!

And I want to get into a most misconceived thing that this has done to our belief.

Peace.
[/quote]

You ever wonder why people are confused about which translation of the bible to read? Because they have yet to enter into the area where it no longers matters which translation to read. If the Spirit of God is your translator, what difference does it really make? You get all these different translations, because you search  for things already discerned, and hold no confidence in the Spirit leading. Its because you have little real experience in the Spirit leading. With the Spirit on your mind, it just does not matter what you are reading.

And I want to detour into that.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on July 06, 2008, 02:36:27 AM


Jesus had a brother called Jude, who some have called Judas or Jacob, and he was an interesting man with some keen insights. I wanted to look at the book of Jude and examine this mans words, some of which are the most severe in the N.T. Jude dealt with Apostacy in the church, and it was the Holy Spirit itself that prompted Jude to write what he did. He urged the believers to contend for the Faith and gives some keen insight into false teachings, which I think will be of intrest to understand.

In vs.3 Jude talks about " Our Common Salvation." How it was " Once", for All, delivered to the saints. This is interesting because it shows salvation to be " Common and for All." Salvation is not complicated, its a general thing, simplification. And what is generality? When you render General to its root base, its simply abstract Universalism. Its the collective thought, broad and widespread, common means Universal. Common Salvation means Universal Salvation, can you see that? To think in general is to think common, or to think Universal.

So Jude expresses how Universal Salvation was " Once", " Delivered for All." Notice in vs.2 he states," May Mercy and Peace and Love " Be Multiplied to you." Interesting, when you multiply Mercy and Peace and Love, whatelse but Universalism could that equal? And I want to look further into this.

Peace.

I really like this...good insight, thanks.  God's blessing, James.

Mickiel:
I am enjoying this thread!
Praise God, we have all been forgiven!
One thing I feel the Lord is showing me, quite in line with you wrote earlier:
"And God is NOT constrained by human belief, or the bible!"

Ever notice how Christian circles usually tend to believe only what's in the Bible?
If the Jews only believed the Old Testament, they would have discredited Jesus when He was 5 years old!!!! Because He was saying NEW things; He was saying things that were TRUTHFUL, even if they were contrary to the old law.
Some Jews were able to hear that truth, and discern it, and believe it.
Others couldn't accept it because it didn't "fit in" with the old law they had studied so hard.

Oh, that we would focus on Truth wherever it may be found! Because God is alive, and working, and able to do a new thing any day He wishes!
And we can either listen for His voice, or ignore it..
That's why He is the Cloud that moves, and the manna that's new every day.

Blessings to you!

Love to all,
Bri

I have written so much about how I do not believe the Spirit is in people, but only " With" certain people some of the time. And I have endured the dislike of many for saying this, but I view it nonetheless very true. And this is the message that Jude was relaying from Jesus. Jude breaks down into one very heavy stern reality, believing people think and do, as they are doing, because they really do not have Gods Spirit inside of them. Jude 19;" These are the ones who really cause divisions, worldly minded and Devoid of the Spirit." Its the people who we view as our leaders who are really able to blend their views into the body of believers, and Gods Spirit has not blended into them. They convince others that they have Gods Spirit, because they are convinced themselves about it.

What Jude warned of was a whole era of self convinced Spirit believing people, carried along by their own belief in themselves as having Gods Spirit. And this is why many of them are mockers, mocking even Gods Word, Mocking having his Spirit, vs.18. Mocking Gods Spirit means that you are deceived into thinking that you have it constantly inside of you, and I have NEVER met a believer in God who does NOT do this! Its the number one imitation of Spiritual Life! One of the most powerful deceptions of pride that I have ever been aware of. Its counterfeit downright stubborn illusion. It is vain fraudulent contemptible pretense which mocks Gods Spirit on a daily basics. It is my personal view that all are quilty of this. All have become spiritual mocking birds, and sing this claim to God.

This is why we need God to keep us from stumbling, because far too many of us are " Stumbling Over God", getting tripped up not by the things of satan, but the things of God. Instead of the word of God being a light, it itself has become a hinderance, because of how WE are trying to use it, trying to see it.

And I want to get into that.  Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel
This is why we need God to keep us from stumbling, because far too many of us are " Stumbling Over God", getting tripped up not by the things of satan, but the things of God. Instead of the word of God being a light, it itself has become a hinderance, because of how WE are trying to use it, trying to see it.

And I want to get into that.  Peace.
[/quote]


We are believers in God, thats what we are. But like babys, we stumble over topics and issues, even the word of God itself. You ever watch a baby trying to walk on its own. Its not doing anything wrong, its trying to progress and use its legs. This is what many are doing with their experience with God. They know Salvation is " Theirs", and they are walking toward it, trying to obtain it in their understanding. 1 Pet. 2:2;" Like newborn babes, long for the pure milk in the Word, that by it you may " Grow in Respect to Salvation." This is why there are a growing number of Universalist, with big heads and troubled hearts, they view themselves as having tasted this milk, and instead of becomming mature in their legs and body, their heads have swelled from all the milk their gulping down, and their stumbling from it.

Walking through life with this big head, having consumed all this knowledge, yet the Body of Christ is not formed. You can't form a church with a bunch of big headed people, their just going to head butt each other. And keep stumbling on those underdevloped legs. Not trying to do wrong, but just not knowing how to handle this milk, and believing they are ready for meat.

Peace.

I want to give a personal confession. My greatest strength, is also my greatest problem. When Gods Spirit vist me, it always gives and does very good things for me. BUT, he  willnot give me his Holy Spirit, no matter how much I ask for it, and that conversely is my greatest problem. I KNOW, and I know that I know, if I had Gods Holy Spirit inside of me perminently, it would be exactly all that I need. Everything would just change. In Jude 24, " Now to him " Who is ABLE to keep you from stumbling." If I had Gods Spirit, I would never stumble again.

Or would I?

Peace.

Jude 13;"Wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam, wandering stars,  for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever." Here jude gets cold blooded, stern and strict, which just has to be done some time. Hes lamenting on these people who are leading others spiritually, the Preist and Popes and preachers of the world. They are wandering stars, or moving around in the darkness of the space of deception. Space is dark, not light. The universe is enclosed in darkness, the light comes from the sun. When God makes an example of things, some of those things, not all of them, last forever. God has not willed that the darkness of space last forever, but if you consider that he will end forever the effects and results of sin and evil, then that has been reserved forever. He forever will end this human way of misleading each other.

And this is how we need to view Gods word, not change it, but understand it. Why would God reserve darkness forever? For what? God is making points, and when he makes perminent points, it needs to be understood in that perminence. For example, Goodness is a perminent point of God. He wants it to always be,  and its very easy to assume why. Just consider the benefits of it, then you are making room in your belief for the thinking of God. Now if you conversely consider the perminence of darkness, then you have to make room for that in your belief. And this is the human way of making room for things that we think God is considering. WE consider the darkness in the context of what WE think God will give eternity to. Gods mind is on the verge of wipeing out the Darkness complettely, which IS perminence, it is an eternal judgement, it simply will no longer be. Its a curse, this darkness, and there will no longer be any curses.

Peace.

Have you ever misunderstood something? Just didnot see it, can't get too it? Well thats the darkness. Why would God want us to be like that forever? Why forever be contained in this? Is that the Tree of Life? Why grow a misunderstanding? Why have eternal growth of darkness? Why should God invest in any misery for eternity? To consider God in this light, is a consideration that is really in the darkness, which is attractive to the human concept of sticking your hand in the cookie jar, or messing with things that you think you can handle.

Let me go into the Darkness just a bit, which I do not like doing but I want you to see something in this.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel link=
Let me go into the Darkness just a bit, which I do not like doing but I want you to see something in this.

Peace.
/quote]

In Phil.3:15;" Let us therefore, as many as are Perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different aittitude, God will reveal that also to you." The ONLY way to navigate through the darkness, is to have some Light, or some prior knowledge about where you need to go. To  deal with the Darkness you  have to understand the darkness, or be led through it by some understanding that you do not possess. We read the bible as if we are being led, thinking no darkness is involved. We try to navigate through its teachings ourselves, thinking we will not encounter the Darkness within the pages of the bible. Because we think we have a perfect defense to the Darkness. We don't see the " Black Ice", the Mirage that we slip on, and misunderstandings so often comes from this. Human misunderstanding is a direct result of the Darkness.

The Darkness is PROOF that God IS involved! Your Sin is PROOF of God being involved, and I would challange any teaching otherwise than this.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

Consider again Jesus own words in Rev.22:16;" I , Jesus, have sent my angels to testify to you these things FOR the churchs; I AM the root and offspring of David, the Bright and Mourning Star." Do you realize how much Sin and Evil hit David? How he was engrossed into it and manipulated by it? David said he was " Maid to lie down in green pastures", conversely just as forced to lie in those not so green, its still the same equalibrium in the Spirit. He was " Made" to to walk THROUGH the valley of the shadow of Death, or to live IN the Darkness! Jesus is the root of this, ALL things were created, or begun by him! Jesus is the offspring of the Darkness, he is the one who took Job and David through it. He knows it, because he created it. He knows how much of it we can endure, because he created us too! Jesus created David, yet he is the root AND offspring of David. He then creates the Darkness and becomes Sin for all of us, he IS the root, and OFFSPRING of this darkness! AND, the offspring of the LIght.

And WE TOO, follow this set predestined route. We ARE the root AND offspring of it too. Yet the Darkness is not our destiny, but it is a part of the equation of Gods prenatal plan.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

Jude says to keep yourselves in the Love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. And have mercy on thouse who doubt this, save others, snatching them out of the Fire, and on some have mercy with fear,  hating even the " Garment Polluted by the Flesh." Interesting quotes, and the Darkness  is certainly part of the Garment Polluted  by the Flesh. The Darkness is the garment humans must wear, and its toxins have polluted us all. We Live and have our being, but we must breathe the toxins in the air, so the air is a part of us. We take in our environment, and we cannot move and have our being without it. So it is with the Darkness, we are what we are and the Darkness is simply a part of that. It then becomes " Natural" for a human to be centered on self, prone to sin and opposed to God.

The only choices we really have is to carry out the desires of the flesh or to walk by the Spirit. God, who gives both Light and Darkness, is really our only hope to navigate between these two realitys. If he does not lead, then we are left to ourselves in the realm of the real human experience, a mixture of both Good and Evil, or the blending of Light and Darkness.

Many view God as comming to excute judgement according to how we have navigated ourselves through this deadly nuclear mixture. Which is simular to a human being created, then placed into water, then the creator judges them for being wet.  And I want to look at that reasoning.

Peace.

I have a question to ask. I do not question the quality of the tools God is using to do his work, but the results are going to be eternal. Thus, if the Darkness is a tool of God, then the results of it are going to be eternal. Can we view " The Eternal Darkness in this Light?"

Peace.

I have had to do some re-thinking on this subject of the Eternal Darkness. Because I think its a lot more to it than we know. I don't believe God will keep sin and misery around for Etrernity, but I do now believe that he will keep a place of Darkness, I just don't understand what this Darkness really is. Whatever it is, it is important enough to God for him to expose us to it. It is important in our creation, it is important in our human experience, and something about it has done something to tip the scales of our beginning in Life. And I am starting to believe that all of the Darkness IS NOT Evil, because the Evil comes from the beings of the Darkness, not the Darkness itself. That is if you view the " Evironmental Aspect" of the Darkness, or quote unquote, the Darkness as an environment, or a Place that exist.

I mean it could be a planet, or an asmosphere, or like the wind, just there and nebulus. It could simply be Gods power charged to the " Mysterious", or actually something God created and " Uses to create other things", as he did with humanity. I could see him keeping it around for all of eternity, simply because he will continue to create for all of eternity. I am kind of getting away from grouping all these things together, Evil, Sin and the Darkness. I think we group them together because we are prone to circumstancial learning. Our minds need certain situations and circumstances in order for us to comprehend.

And this is what is exciting about learning from God directly, because there are no learning circumstances. God has created some fantastic stuff, the Darkness is one of them. I consider Gods use of it as nothing short of extraordinary, and I want to go into a different look at the Darkness, one which seperates the Evil from it, and just consider another function, or functions of it.

Peace

Notice Jude 13;" For whom the Black Darkness has been reserved forever". This sounds erie to me, kind of like a place of nether gloom, but a definte place. 2Pet.2:17 uses this same analogy, " For whom the Black Darkness has been reserved." Jesus himself uses simular terminology in Matt.8:12, " Cast into Outer Darkness." In Matt.6:23 he calls this Darkness " Great!" In John 3:19, 8:12, 12:35 and 12:46 he refers to the Darkness and in Luke 22:53 he calls it Powerful. Now Revelations it teachs that there shall no longer be any curses, pain or death. Now if you remove these things from the Darkness, can it still exist in Eternity?

Look at Isaiah 42:16;" I will make Darkness INTO Light before them. Now Genisis 1:4, " God Divided the Light from the Darkness." Now if God removes sin and evil from the Darkness, and removes confusion from it, what would it then be? Its somethingelse about this Darkness that we just can't see. If you remove the bitter taste from most medicine, you still would have  the medicinal purpose of it in place. Its the same with the Lake of Fire, if you remove the immense heat from it, what would it then be? If you remove the nature of some animals to kill and bite, remove aggression,  what would they then be? Just a giant teddy Bear or a really big Cat. Now God is able to effect these kinds of changes, VERY capable of doing that. If you change the nature of ANY violent animal, it would become a totally different thing in our eyes. Because of the change made, we could view the same thing differently. So it is with the Lake of Fire and the Darkness. You think God is just going to change humans only?

If God uses the Darkness to create humanity, or uses it as a very real componant of our existance and as a factor in our development, why should he dispose of it? Its just a mysterious ingredient. If you eat garlic by itself, its a nasty seasoning, but if you use it correctly to flavor, it taste really good. The Darkness is something God is using, and at first taste of it, it seems very nasty, but I want to go into other ways to understand it, which will open other doors into your understanding.

Peace.

Consider this closely: if you look at the ingredients that a chef is using to prepare a dish, you may disagree with those ingredients and how they have used them. But the bottom line is the resulting taste of the dish isn't it? How is it going to turn out. Now God has used these ingredients in the creation of humanity; Death, Sin, Evil, Confusion, Pain, troubles and turmoil along with the Darkness. There is nothing Good about those things, BUT he has used them. We can certainly question him as to why he has done this and consider him using other ways to have prepared us. But its what he has done. THATS the thing most willnot consider about God. If he has used something, then it NEEDED to be used! That need makes the ingredient very important to him in HIS purpose.

As the writers of the bible were considering God,  they were shown ingredients and mixtures God was using to achieve Eternal results. The Darkness is an important ingredient which will yeild eternal results, but I don't think they complettely understood all of the ingredients, and many of them admitted it. God didnot need them to see through everything clearly, so  they wrote about the Eternity of the Darkness in terms of a result, not an ingredient.

The Black darkness was reserved forever in their understanding, but it is better understood as an ingredient that reserves forever. And I want to show that.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel
The Black darkness was reserved forever in their understanding, but it is better understood as an ingredient that reserves forever. And I want to show that.

Peace.
[/quote]


Again Jesus in Matt. 6:23;" But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of Darkness. If therefore the Light that is in you is Darkness, how Great is the Darkness?" There are two ways to discern this. If  your understanding is considered by you to be a light, when really it is not, then your percieved revelation is not a source from God, but from the Darkness, but the Darkness is still from God! He is the Alpha of ALL things, including the Darkness of human minds. God is the giver of Light,  or understanding, if he gives you the Darkness, it is STILL a LIght from God! Everyone bound by the Darkness are still bound by the Light! There is therefore a Holy Relationship between the Light and the Darkness, or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. A" Spiritual  Companionship" exist between the Light and the Darkness, and it really is great.

Paul spoke of how he tried to shake loose from this, but was not allowed too. Many humans will try to convince Christ that they were NOT effected by this, or somehow escaped the Darkness, and Christ says to that;" I never knew You!" Or he never knew ANY  human who could bypass a God ordained situation. The Darkness is a Law of God, and to think you have bypassed it is lawlesssness, or self righteousness.

As a human builds their resume to God, they will declare this and that, proclaim their righteousness, not knowing they have not submitted to the righteousness of God concerning the Darkness. Because we feel the need to convince God of our righteousness. This is really a lack of faith in God concerning your lack of  realizing how this Darkness really has a foothold into your reality. In Malachi 3:1, God can "clear things up", or effect the human mind to the degree that it clears things up to us. If God is using something in his creation process , then it exist to clear things up. That would be a natural result of Gods work, or him " Cooking, or Molding" his creations. Jesus in Mark 3:28;" All sins will be forgiven Men." This is Gods use of the Darkness, we hold no need to convince God of anything. We have a get out of jail free card in Christ. But Christ created the jail, and we MUST endure  our time within it.

Let me get into that some.  Peace.

If a person stood on the top of a hill and rolled a snowball, then the snowball gains momentum as it progresses down, ripping and tearing things up as it goes, then hits in a final display of destruction, the destruction must be blamed on the person who started this process, because it didnot begin on its own. Now what if the person who started this process, begins to judge people according to how they got in the path of this, and tried to manuver out of its way? What if there was no way around it? Why judge me according to how I deal with things you have started? This is no way to view what God has done, thats circumstancial judgement. God created the circumstances, why judge you according to them? No , the judgement of God is not circumstancial, its intentional. Just as the Darkness is intentional, it holds a direct purpose.

Nahum describes God as Jealous, wrathful and avenging, 1:2. Why should God get angry at the way a human has been affected by his intentional circumstances? If we fail to understand WHY the circumstances and obsticles, then we are sure to misunderstand how and why God Judges.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

Now I am sharing about understanding Gods Judgements, how and why they are formed, which may take some length, which I apologise for, but I think it will clear a lot of things up for you as the Spirit vists your understanding. First understand that your understanding is Circumstantial. Our Learning is Circumstantial. Which means it is derived from or based on things that are not absolute evidence. Our minds are based on conditions of the world of matter. We move and have our earthly being based on what we can see and experience, and our knowledge can be, and often is incidental. And much of the human knowledge of God has been based on this. So much of human understanding about God is really circumstantial evidence from which inferences can be made to try to prove that God exist, and we think in terms of these things as being facts.

Now, why would God Judge a world based on circumstantial evidence, when if punishing judgement was what he was after, that could be perfectly accomplished by direct detailed relevatory facts given to everyone in the world? Without his direct intervention into their minds, their still going to misunderstand the evidence. We cannot say that the world would respond to God if they knew the truth , or the facts. The Truth has already come and was killed by men on a Tree. So Gods true Judgement is NOT based on the response of humans, its just not! Most have not been clearly given the evidence, and most who have, still don't complettely understand the facts! So the Judgement of God is NOT based on the understanding of men, we wouldnot even understand his judgement.

And this is why people believe in eternal hell judgement, they don't know the judgements of God, ONLY because they do not know God himself. Only when God Circumstantiates our circumstances, will we have fullnesss of detail. Instead of circumstantiating them, God has Circumvented the human experience, which means to be maneuvered very craftly, or surround us with things that detour us and manipulate our experiences. And he is not judgeing us by our human response to those circumstances. He is " Depending on those circumstances to BE a part of his CREATING, not Judgement."

But you see we have blured these things together so much in our belief, we can't see any difference in Gods Judgement and his Creating. We tend to think God has created humanity, in order to judge them. So we look at what we think are the judgements of God, and we formulate from that , the reasons why he will judge. And our concepts , or the root of our reasonings are themselves then circumstantial, or incidental.

So let me get into Creation and Judgement, according to their real path, because the Judgement of God, LEAD to the creation of Man. Mans creation does not lead him into Gods Judgement.

Peace.

Again Jesus in John 12:47;" I didNOT come to judge the world, but to SAVE the WORLD." It was Gods Judgement " To Send Jesus to save the World." Its a Judgement from God for the World to be saved. Salvation " Comes FROM a Judgement of God." God made a predestined judgement to save all of humanity, but we do not understand what Gods judgement is. We think Gods judges humans based on righteousness and unrighteousness, belief and unbelief. Notice Paul in Rom.3:6;" May it never be, for otherwise, how will God Judge the World?" Gods own faith in his judgements are NEVER considered by humans who look to understand him, we rather like to believe that his judgements are a reflection of his anger. Or rooted from his wrath. That is circumstantial belief, as well as uncircumcised understanding of how God judges.

Circumstantial understanding is really uncircumcised belief. A physical look at the judgements of God, is a look by the letter, but the letter is still looked at by the human heart, so we have " A bleeding uncircumcised Heart" , falling in Love with how it perceives God to Judge. Why would God Judge someone like that? Here the person loves him, but they are uncircumcised, or a creature of circumstances. They love him, but just don't know him. Why would he condemn them for Loving him but not knowing him. Well a lawyer for satan will ask God to convict them according to the Letter.

And the world thinks thats how God has judged this world, according to the Letter, or his Laws, or the scriptures. OR, Circumstantial Evidence.

By the evidence of Gods Judgements, are " His Faith", HIS Love, HIS Mercy, HIS longsuffering, these ARE the Evidence of Gods Judgements, his OWN reasons as to WHY he has judged. AND its WHY we were created.

And I want to touch on that some.

Peace.

Now keep in mind what a Judgement is, and relate this to the creation of humanity. Concerning law, or circumstance, judgement is a setnence pronounced, a verdict that requires payment of that now pronounced debt incurred from the sentence, and this is mainly how Gods judgements are discerned. As if he is a bill collector in his stance toward his own laws. But consider judgement as the act of deciding or passing decision on something. Judgement from God is actually his good sense of wisely considering things, and THEN determining those things to be, AFTER he has judged already.

The finality of Gods judgement, is actually his already predetermined will, not his response to how we deal with circumstances. You have got to get this into your belief, you just have to. Because from that stance, you can view God in HIS predetermined circumstances, which actually make this world goes around.

And determines your circumstances in your belief.

Peace.

Hi Mickiel,

how do you get ideas like us christians not having the Holy Spirit inside of us? The bible says that we have Him. Paul writes that God put the Holy Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. He also writes to Timothy that he should fan into flame the gift of God through his (Paul's) laying on of hands.

I think God gives us Holy Spirit very liberally. It's the best gift He can give. Every christian has Him. No matter whether they (honestly, truthfully and not hypocritically) believe in ET or in UR (for which the same applies).

But it's easy to miss the Holy Spirit even when He is there. Having Holy Spirit and being with the Holy Spirit as a person in the Godhead is sometimes not the same. Sometimes the Holy Spirit shows us something, lets us experience Him, but sometimes we are busy with ourselves and ideas and other people and life that we miss out on the Holy Spirit even when we have Him.

You make a very good point in your last post though, that God does not simply react to what we do but that He is omniscient. When God interacts with us it's like a mountaintop speaks to an animal in a valley. God makes concessions all the time and does not wish to overburden us. That's why christianity in essence is very simple. Live with the Creator and trust Him and don't do evil stuff.

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 25, 2008, 09:00:19 PM
Hi Mickiel,

how do you get ideas like us christians not having the Holy Spirit inside of us? The bible says that we have Him. Paul writes that God put the Holy Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. He also writes to Timothy that he should fan into flame the gift of God through his (Paul's) laying on of hands.

Well its no big deal, not to me now, its just something I believe. I think as high as 95% of the people who claim to have Gods Spirit, simply do not. And thats just the way I am seeing it. I don't think God has chosen the time to pour out his Spirit on individuals, or on a group, I think he is waiting to do that. This is what I am seeing in scripture, and its what I am being led to believe. And I may well be alone in this belief.

But its no big deal, just ignore it.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on July 26, 2008, 12:40:09 AM

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 25, 2008, 09:00:19 PM
Hi Mickiel,

how do you get ideas like us christians not having the Holy Spirit inside of us? The bible says that we have Him. Paul writes that God put the Holy Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. He also writes to Timothy that he should fan into flame the gift of God through his (Paul's) laying on of hands.

Well its no big deal, not to me now, its just something I believe. I think as high as 95% of the people who claim to have Gods Spirit, simply do not. And thats just the way I am seeing it. I don't think God has chosen the time to pour out his Spirit on individuals, or on a group, I think he is waiting to do that. This is what I am seeing in scripture, and its what I am being led to believe. And I may well be alone in this belief.

But its no big deal, just ignore it.

Peace.

Just let me make a short comment on this, because I believe I have been very wrong in the past to try to make an issue of it. Certain things should come into our belief, and we be comfortable with it. If God gives the belief, then he should give the comfort with it also. And then we can grow into the belief. If he does not give the comfort and assurance of it, were going to have a hard time growing into it. And thats just going to take time. Some things just can't be proven to ourselves outside of human comfort zones, but God is very able to manipulate those zones. Like Spiritual zip codes, he will get his message across to you. And may take his time to deliver it.

In my view, what the world needs now is Love, Joy, Peace, Goodness and gentleness, and it just does not have enough of this. These things are the evidence of Gods Spirit being present, and I just do not see them in people. And I don't see them in myself. I simply believe the reason I do not see them, is because they are not there. But its very easy to fabricate the reasons to believe they are, espically within yourself. Because we see small levels of them, we then attribute this to be Gods level of work. And that is astounding, for one to take such small levels, and call that a work of God.

I think the Holy Spirit is " Booming", bursting with Power, and its effects are not small minded or small levels. When a lamp is lighted in the darkness, its just going to stand out and dominate the darkness, it cannot be hiddened. This is what I expect from the giving of Gods Holy Spirit, nothingless than this. When God gets in you, even your opinions about things are just going to stand out and be noticed. And you will reflect all of the fruits of that experience.

Anyhow, I want to get back to Jude.

Peace.

Something Jude states in vs. 24 is the most perplexing to me. " Now to him who is ABLE to keep you from stumbling." One climax of Gods Power is that if he wanted to, he could bring you to a point of never stumbling, or never sinning. Boy wouldn't that be something, for God to place you on a level that you would never even stumble, just walk upright like Job did. Job was so out of place in his time, that its just rediculus. He was perfect and upright, God had him where  he would never stumble. Now God could do this to anyone at any time, yet he does not, and men struggle to reach this on their own.

Now God is able to erase death, stop evil, give complette understanding, but he does not. So believers in turn try to understand this by interpiting that God is looking for us to do, what he is able to do for us. So religion has become a self improvement free will program, after all, if God does not perform, then hes looking for us to perform. And this is typical of our judgements , of Gods judgements.

Look at Romans 16:25;" Now unto him who is able to establish you." Establish means God can settle you by installing righteous behavior on a perminent basics. He could secure you with his Spirit and make you firm in his ways. Now God is most able to do this, and IF he did it, then the human would be JUST LIKE JOB was! But what people are trying to believe, is that God is now giving his Spirit, but not establishing it in a manner that would produce perfection. Because they are not perfect, they MUST water down the Power of the Spirit, by explaining their sin in another light. So that this light will allow THEM to believe they have Gods Spirit, but " Only just a little down payment of it." Oh man, thats just a weak way of trying to understand something that is VERY powerful. Now, because of YOUR claims and belief, YOUR sin, YOUR weakness, MUST be explained and compared to something that resembles the truth, a truth which will allow you to be what you claim you are.

And this reasoning has produced the most evasive deceptions that have ever existed.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Let me detour and share a personal observation. The single greatest problem that I think the called of God are experiencing, is premature election. They have climaxed too soon, because they can't handle even just the emotional content of being called. I admit that this bothers me somewhat, God has drilled this into me and I see it so much. He is able to do something about this, able to keep us from stumbling, but that IS NOT his will for now, just like I believe the giving of the Spirit is just not for now.

Let me ask you something. Why would God give you his Spirit, only to see you stumble and fall all the time? What do you think the Power of the Spirit does? You see we think the attainment of Knowledge is mostly what the Spirit does for us, and sin and weakness, well were just going to have that all the time. Thats so unture, so very untrue. When the Spirit " Comes", we are being built up, when it " Stays perminently", we are PERFECTED! And your life and mind will reflect that perfection. That perfection will be the Light of this world that cannot be hidden.

Oh I want so much to get into that, but I am learning to only go so far, and not cause offense.

Peace.

The people of God are growing in grace and Knowledge, and one demands the other. Your head is learning, but your going to need the grace because you are in preperation and your going to still rattle and reel from your lifes experiences. We are in the womb of growing in grace and knowledge, we are not yet born again. And this is how I see this, it explains everything, but many refuse this explination. Even the church is being " Established", it has not been born.

The reason why there is no one true church, is because it has NOT been born, it is still growing within its womb. YOU are still growing within a womb. You may like to believe there is a church now, that you have the Spirit now, and may well live within that illusion for years to come.

But when God establishes his church, when he really gives you his Spirit, its going to be like night and day, no more confusion. And I tell you, you just watch this in the years to come. When God gives these things, its going to be a mighty thing to behold, to be part of. These initial stages of preperation, will be NOTHING like the times of dispensation, its going to rock you, and rock this world!

God will be moving ready to end this thing, the age of man will be comming to and end. The way we disrespect his Spirit now, will then be known. And God will forgive, because thats just how he is.

Its going to be a frightening before and after. THEN you will compare yourselves amoungst yourselves, how you were when you thought you had Gods Spirit, as opposed to now that you have it. There will be no disrespect in this comparrison, you will KNOW the difference.

I am no Prophet, but if I were, this would be my prophecy.

Peace.

In Jude 20 he states that we should build ourselves up by Holy Faith, and to " Pray in the Spirit." What is praying in the Spirit? ( Eph.6:18)  I just know many will disagree with this, but there is no such thing as a human " Praying in the Spirit." In Fact we cannot pray in the Spirit. Not just yet. Praying in the Spirit is something that the " Spirit does FOR you." Romans 8:26;" And in the same way the Spirit helps our weaknesses, for we do not know( How to pray in the Spirit) to pray as we should, but the Spirit himself does the Praying.

Notice here that the Holy Spirit Prays! Do you know what this means, it means God has the Holy Spirit communicating constantly with him. Interceding and talking directly to God on our behalf. For example, I cannot pray " In the Spirit", so the Holy Spirit, which has more access to me now than God does, it knows me better. It will bring me up in its conversations with God, and explain me to God. It will tell God my needs, and God will approve or disaprove of them, and thats how this goes for us all.

So then praying in the Spirit is not what YOU are saying, its whats being said FOR YOU, by the Holy Spirit.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on July 31, 2008, 07:40:45 PM


In Jude 20 he states that we should build ourselves up by Holy Faith, and to " Pray in the Spirit." What is praying in the Spirit? ( Eph.6:18)  I just know many will disagree with this, but there is no such thing as a human " Praying in the Spirit." In Fact we cannot pray in the Spirit. Not just yet. Praying in the Spirit is something that the " Spirit does FOR you." Romans 8:26;" And in the same way the Spirit helps our weaknesses, for we do not know( How to pray in the Spirit) to pray as we should, but the Spirit himself does the Praying.

Notice here that the Holy Spirit Prays! Do you know what this means, it means God has the Holy Spirit communicating constantly with him. Interceding and talking directly to God on our behalf. For example, I cannot pray " In the Spirit", so the Holy Spirit, which has more access to me now than God does, it knows me better. It will bring me up in its conversations with God, and explain me to God. It will tell God my needs, and God will approve or disaprove of them, and thats how this goes for us all.

So then praying in the Spirit is not what YOU are saying, its whats being said FOR YOU, by the Holy Spirit.

Peace.

And this is a VITAL key in understanding God. God is really constantly communicating with the Holy Spirit, THAT is the key to whats really going on as of now. And listen, satan and demons have absolutely no access to these communications, they are Holy and private. This is the key to humanitys salvation, its how this thing is being accomplished. This is the real mapping of Salvation, its the plan in action. Its the conference table of human history, and its the discussions that breed the switch from being called by God, to being chosen by God. THIS is how God chooses who will be chosen.

Its how Spiritual gifts are given and dispenced, its how punishments are distrubited, its how revelations are given. The Holy Spirit does not debate God, it advises God, gives its imput and God makes the final decision. When the human is given the Holy Spirit directly, to constantly dwell inside of him or her, this changes things dramatcially. And I want to go into this, and show you what you are claiming when you suggest to yourself that you are in this mix.

Peace.

So many of us believe we are talking directly to God, and we will accept nothingless than this to be true, but I don't think its true at all. We think we know how to talk to God, and such is a prideful part of human gall. I already know I do not know how to talk to God, and the pressure has been taken away from me to even try, because I believe the Holy Spirit has me covered in that area. Once you have reached a point in understanding this, then your prayers hold no pressure, no failures, no shame, no need to try to generate something, as if your voice can do that anyway.

We don't even know how to talk to each other, but we think we know how to talk with God.

The Holy Spirit took the pressure off of my prayers, by showing me that it will communicate with God on my behalf, because I asked it why I cannot pray as I thought I should. I was worried about this so much. Then I realized that all the times I was not praying, I had the Spirit praying for me, and life goes on. And this is a GREAT advantage that we have, because the Holy Spirit will generally speak to God about humanity as a whole, but for it to bring you up in specifics to God, is a great honor. And its going to cover everything, in a manner that just is not possible for you to do.

Romans 8:27;" And he who searches the hearts knows what the " Mind of the Spirit is.", Because the Spirit is communcating for the Saints." From this we can KNOW that the Holy Spirit "Has a Mind." It thinks and examines, it is intelligent and reason, it has individuality and purpose. It records and builds information that God examines and discerns.

Now, when God gives a human his Holy Spirit, the human then will have ALL the abilitys of the Holy Spirit. To think and examine, to record and reason the things of God. AND speak directly with God.

And this is a very grave thing, because once you speak directly with God, oh  what that will breed into your reality.

And I don't think humans are now being breeded into this, and I want to explain why.

Peace.

So here we have a particular group, or groups of people who are claiming they have Gods Spirit, that they are talking to God, and he is talking to them. They then share things to others, and this is the root of so many mixed signals being imparted into this world. These people debate with each other, and have the gall to believe that this is evidence of God in them. As if God wants the confusion, sanctions it. The Spirit of God does not breed confusion and debate, its just the oppisite, it breeds unity and cohesion, it settles matters, it does not cause matters of confusion.

Now Look at Romans 8:10;" Now IF Christ is IN you, your body is dead, dead because of sin, but the Spirit is alive because of Righteousness." Here God looks to kill the body, which is to bring you to not master your flesh, why look to master what is being killed? Why try to compette with death? Let it die, accept it is gone. There is nothing to debate, all evidence is being destroyed. A whole new life is being created, and this is what the giving of the Holy Spirit would be like. Gods righteousness has now TAKEN control.

And there WILL be evidence of this, BECAUSE of God.

And I want to continue on with that.

Peace.

Now I am of the view that Gods Holy Spirit, given in the last days, DEMANDS that a whole group of Jobs be created! Yes, I said that, a whole group of perfect people be manufactored. Why uhser in a Kingdom, based on imperfect people? What kind of end time example is that?

Here we have God bringing things in human history to their climax, why use a group of called out people, switched to chosen, being powerfully annointed, and yet they are full of sin? And you see, we have reached that climax on our own, we think now we are perfected, which we are not, now we feel we have this annointing. And because of this, we must explain our sin and weaknesses, thus we pervert Gods calling, by trying to compensate for why we still sin. And we use scriptures to try to explain this.

So we invent the Kingdom being now within, but without the perfection it demands to be breeded.

Kings before our time.

So the advent of the Kingdom, will actually be the dismantling of pride in these Kings. God is not building an Adams family, hes building perfection.

And I want to touch on that.

Peace.

Now 1 John 4:13;" By this we know that we abide IN him and he IN us, because he has given us OF his Spirit." Can you see what OF means there. It means given us USE OF his Spirit. Don't you think God can perfect his Love in a human and cause that human to be perfect in the flesh? What makes you think that you have Gods Spirit, but yet you are not perfect? You are not living during Pauls time, your living in the end times. Why should an end time annointed person of God, be expected to live in unperfection in this corrupt world? Explain that to me.

You claim to have Gods Spirit, that claim demands that you explain your unperfection, so you search for support of that unperfection in scripture, as if you are not discerning the times your in. Is God then ignorant of the times and our NEED for the perfection?

Our explinations must then be accepted by ourselves AND this world.

And I want to get into how we cleverly try to accomplish this. AND what God is going to do about it.

Peace.

Your belief in Universalism must Overcome this world, not your belief in yourself. You have to have Faith, NOT in yourself having Gods Spirit, thats not what overcomming is. Look at 1 John 5: 4;" For whoever is Born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world, our faith." What, faith in ourselves as having been born again? You think self faith is what overcame this world? You think your claim of being annointed has overcome this world? Thats not the Faith. Our assurance of the MESSAGE IS the Faith, not our assurance of ourselves.

So then we spend time explaining how we got converted, how we had our moment of truth, and expect that to be a witness of the truth. The messenger has evolved beyond the message and become a King before their time. Your faith is really in yourself. And this is why you experience pacification in your prayers. Your talking to yourself, thinking your talking to God. Your talking to others, thinking your talking for God. Your depending on your faith, and not this message. Your prayers are pivited on yourself, and thats why they get nowhere. Then you seek to explain why this is no place to be somebody in the Lord.

No place to be somebody called. And I want to go into no place to be somebody.

Peace.

This world is no place to be somebody, and yet the personality of man looks to assert itself as being somebody, the highest form of that is to claim having Gods Spirit. Which of course is elite, Spiritual, having a form of Godliness. And these seek to announce the gospel message, as if God inspires as such. Jude suggest that we build ourselves up, and I suggest that the common belief in God, is rooted from people building themselves up in Gods word. Sprayed with themselves, they are really rooted in self interpitation, which is a form of Godliness, because God MUST deal with the self in humanity. Humans then feel the impression of the bible, because it has made its impression, and we go from there. We take off, headed in the direction of our own interpitation, we then are the alpha and omega, it looks like spirituality because we are fascinated with ourselves.

You fill a planet with these kind of people, and its no place to be somebody.

You fill a church with this, and its no place to be somebody.

You fill a mind with this and it becomes a place of its own. It looks to fill itself with priviledge and ultimately claim God is in them. It was to this approach that the 7 letters in Revelation was written.

Christ is, and is to come. But Christ was once dead. He actually died. While he was dead, much was planted by the world of evil. During that time of Christ death, an advantage was taken by satan, a chance to plant " Other things in humanity", and plant them into believers, his first concern.

The Born again mentality is taken advantage of and believers are too beefed up to listen.

They have Faith, but the faith is in themselves. This falls into such predictable evil hands, which masquerade as the hand of God.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on July 31, 2008, 11:26:15 PM


Christ is, and is to come. But Christ was once dead. He actually died. While he was dead, much was planted by the world of evil. During that time of Christ death, an advantage was taken by satan, a chance to plant " Other things in humanity", and plant them into believers, his first concern.



Notice again Jesus in John 19:11;" Jesus answered. You would have no Authority over me, unless it had been given you from above." This is the root reason why the true gospel  of Universal Reconciliation holds no Universal Power in human belief, because false Gospels have been given authority over it by God himself. Christ message holds no universal appeal, because God didnot grant that. Jesus is not believed to be the Savior of all, because God has not authorized this to be so as of this time. This is why such an overpowering truth, has been overpowered itself by lesser powerful interpitations. Its why the concept of eternal hell has overpowered the concept of eternal life for all. When ignorance overshadows revelation, and the weaker thoughts dominate the stronger thoughts, then God has granted authority to them.

Or Christ has died, and birth was given to other concepts of his death. Its like the stronger giving place to the weaker, and in this the first shall be the last, and the last shall be first. Or the dominant truth, is recended, moved to the rear, and the weaker concepts are given authority. Jesus, the most powerful human on earth, was killed by the lesser humans on earth. And this is what happened to the Gospel, it was allowed to die, and God will ressurect it in his time. Jesus was allowed to plant the Truth, start a church, but the truth and the church had to die as well. I disagree with the teachings that a church of God has always been on this planet, continued like  a bloodline from generation to generation. I believe the truth, the church, both have experienced exactly what Christ has, a death, and a ressurection.

Jesus was active while he was dead, in one sense, and so it has been with the truth and the church. They have been dead too, but things were still being done actively during their death, because God is the power behind both death and life, he can still actively deal with dead things. And I think this is misunderstood, and why many Spiritually dead people think they are Spiritually alive, because they sense God is working with them, which he may well be, but they misunderstand that he works with the dead also. You don't have to be Spiritualy or physically alive in order for God to actively work on you.

This world is Spiritually dead, yet God is actively working on it. But because God is working on it, the world may think it is alive Spiritually. Conversely , Spiritually dead people may believe they are born again because God is working on them. In their minds they are Spiritually Somebody. When the human mind and belief presupposses that it is something that it is not, the place their belief is  in, is no place to be somebody.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Misunderstanding death, is really misunderstanding Gods purpose for it. So we look to not die, or to believe we can avoid it. So we cling to Life, hope for it, and hope to not die. Again Jesus in John 12:27;" My soul has becomed troubled, and what shall I say ( To God), " Father save me from this hour? But for this purpose I came to this Hour." And this is the mentality that many hold in their belief that the truth has never experienced death on this earth, they look to preserve what God has decreed to die. Going beyond, they look to claim that they are now born again, now Spiritually alive, while God wants them dead Spiritually. They do not believe he can work with their death. And this cripples their belief so much. It really limits God. They think they have to be elevated in order for God to be actively involved with them. They sense him working, but feel the need to elevate themselves to a position that THEY think is compatible with Gods involvement. They think;" Well God is working, so I must be alive." I must have his Spirit, I must not be dead.

But for this purpose we were called, to die. And the church was called for that same purpose, to die and experience death. Then be ressurected, and THEN be given much more Power than before. The true power, comes AFTER the ressurection, after the death. Christ power is the ressurection. Our power is no different, it will come ONLY after the death of things within. But the death MUST occur! If you look to bypass the death, you cripple yourself.

What shall we say to God? Father save me from this death? This period of no conscious Spiritual understanding? Move me from the period of death, spare me from my own ignorance?

For this period we were made, for this purpose we were born.

And I want to touch on that.

Peace.

Did you know that the pride of Life, is also a Lust for Life? The pride of your calling is also a Lust for the calling. Do you know what you are lusting for? You desire this calling from God, did you know that you must die first? Before the new birth, comes death. You think you can skip the death, or manufactor your own death, your own period of sleep, or  lack of understanding? Being a King before your time, means you have manufactored your own death, or created your own cross.  Thus you create your own rebirth and now your born again in your eyes.

Again Jesus in Luke 22:42, " Father if thou art willing, remove this cup from me, yet not my will by thine be done." The Pride of Life, versus the humility of going along with Gods plan. Jesus wanted to Live, but he wanted the Truth of God much more. Human believers want to live, want to be Gods annointed so bad, want his Spirit so bad, but cannot see their death being first on Gods list. We don't want to go underground, we don't want to be seen as dead, espically  to ourselves. In Jude 18;" In the last time there shall be Mockers, following after their own ungodly lust." No believer thinks this warning is meant for them, they automatically attribute it to be for unbelievers. They cannot see that it means one can lust  for and mock Gods Spirit, claiming they have it but really do not. Vs. 19;" THESE are the ones who CAUSE divisions, worldly minded, DEVOID of the Spirit."

THATS the problem, DEVOID of the Spirit! Thats WHY you see divisions caused, because the Spirit is NOT there, but believed to be. And its why people believe they are right. And its why their rightness causes troubles.

Peace.

One of the obvious problems the Prophets of God and teachers of God had with people, is that they often wanted to exhort the people and speak words of light, but they constantly had to correct the people and deal with their distortions. And this is the true process of regeneration, you deal with what is dead first, only then can new life bud  out. The flesh is death, designed to die. You wonder what death is, the first or the second death, well humans are death. We are the walking dead, destined to die. Death was created when humans were, its intertwined destiny. The first death is your body of flesh, the second death is the destruction of your flesh. Eternal life is the removal of death, or your flesh.

And many cannot see the sheer gall of claiming the new birth while still in the flesh. Its because the word of God crisscrosses so much, phases in and out of subjects, and needs to be Spiritually discerned. We physically discern it on our own, and make assumptions on our own. And because we have made those assumptions for long years, we just think we have cornered the market of the truth.

So someone comes along and speaks the truth, and its not reconized.

And there you have the life of a prophet, or a teacher of God, wanting to exhort and shed some truth, but always confronted with the distortions of the people. And constantly having to deal with that. So Jude says in 20, " Build yourselves up by your own faith", because he knew, like all of Gods Prophets knew, he had to deal with their problems. So let them build themselves up, since he couldnot do it.

Peace.