Hello!

[joyful1]

Hello everyone!
I'm a member over at BT, have been for a couple of years learning about the "Saviour of all men..." I go by the same name over there, should you care to check out my views on various topics. I enjoy fellowshipping with like minded believers and have a thirst for The Truth.

I believe that the Kingdom of God is within, and that the spiritual universe is preminent; that everything "seen" is made from "the unseen."  However, I have a few questions in my mind about the physical universe and would like to see what you are learning about them over here, if that is ok with you.

I'm a married, 50 something mom of seven, who enjoys first and foremost reading and studying the Word of God. I'm also intrested in history, archaeology, physics, medicine and law, and how these topics relate to God's plan for the salvation of all.

So, with that all said....hello!
Joyce :)

[jabcat]

Welcome!  Hopefully you'll learn some, but it also sounds like you'll add to us here.  Thanks for coming in.  God's blessing, James.

[joyful1]

Thanks James!  :icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

Hello everyone!
I'm a member over at BT, have been for a couple of years learning about the "Saviour of all men..." I go by the same name over there, should you care to check out my views on various topics. I enjoy fellowshipping with like minded believers and have a thirst for The Truth.

I believe that the Kingdom of God is within, and that the spiritual universe is preminent; that everything "seen" is made from "the unseen."  However, I have a few questions in my mind about the physical universe and would like to see what you are learning about them over here, if that is ok with you.

I'm a married, 50 something mom of seven, who enjoys first and foremost reading and studying the Word of God. I'm also intrested in history, archaeology, physics, medicine and law, and how these topics relate to God's plan for the salvation of all.

So, with that all said....hello!
Joyce :)

A fellow polymath :cloud9:

:omg: :welcome: to Tentmaker :Urock:

[jabcat]

I guess I'm not a polymath, as I had to Google it to see what it meant   :Book:.  Duh, also, what's BT?  I'd like to check it out.

[joyful1]

Thanks for all the warm welcomes...those icons are funny!
Jabcat, Bible_Truths.com.
Joyce :)

[jabcat]

Thanks!  I'll look.

[martincisneros]

I guess I'm not a polymath, as I had to Google it to see what it meant   :Book:.  Duh, also, what's BT?  I'd like to check it out.

Don't feel so bad, Jabcat.  It's not a very common word, so I googled it before using it, just to be on the safe side that I was using the word correctly.  [Wikipedia says about polymath: The term is used rarely enough to be included in dictionaries of obscure words.]  Googling words is a personal obsession, though where I'll look up quite a few of the words that I use before I'll use them 'cause of having a bit of a perfectionist kick about my choice in wording.  The small handful of times that I've been wrong about the usage of a word over the last 20 something years, it's been about as bad and about as funny as a scene out of one of the Rush Hour movies where what's his name was trying to pretend that he knew Chinese when he emphatically didn't.  I'm usually either 100% right on the usage of a word in something I'm about to write, or it's sink in your school desk absolute humiliation with no real in-betweens.  I'm more apt to make that mistake than a lot of other folks 'cause I read a lot of older books and I don't always detect the change in meanings over the decades/centuries.  For instance, what the Founding Fathers of the United States meant by "Oligarchy" 225+ years ago is best expressed by the word "Krytocracy" these days.  Although occasionally they did mean "Oligarchy" in the modern sense of an aristocracy, so it's a bit tricky, depending on context.  And, no, I'm not tellin' how many times I googled for this post :msealed: :mblush:

[joyful1]

martincisneros, what's your take on extraterrestrials? I realize that this is a controversial subject, so if I've brought up something that you don't want discussed here, just say so! No problem!  :icon_flower:
Joyce :)

[martincisneros]

martincisneros, what's your take on extraterrestrials? I realize that this is a controversial subject, so if I've brought up something that you don't want discussed here, just say so! No problem!  :icon_flower:
Joyce :)

I don't mind briefly going there 'cause it's not the type of subject that would overpower the boards or polarize opinions too badly.  The only possible relevant questions are whether they exist, whether or not they've been here, or could have been here, and if they have some type of redemptive provision made for them in the work of Christ.  The last part of that briefly touches on the UR subject.  Because we aren't privy to the details of their spiritual needs and the level of relationship they're capable of with God, it's virtually pointless to speculate about their place in redemption other than to say that if they're tainted by sin and/or curse, then Christ is obviously their answer at whatever time He wishes to personally deal with all of that or to take us to those worlds to deal with all of that.  I believe the Scripture mentions them, but there aren't sufficient details to speculate on their whereabouts, their nature, their needs, or their intents if we came into contact with them.  So much of myth and legend could have even been true when it teetered on that subject, but it could involve descriptions of creatures that are extinct.  That's a possibility that's not often looked at by UFO enthusiasts.  Anything "out there" could have gone extinct eons ago.  Colossians 1:15-20 gives about the only possible answer as far as Christ reconciling even the things in the heavenlies with His Blood.  If they have issues that need to be addressed along those lines, then that's the provision.  Otherwise, they might be in the category of innocent animals that have been victims and prey because of either Angelic sin or Adam's sin.  Again, there aren't enough details for a reasonable hypothesis, and only speculation is possible as far as God's eternal plans where any such life would be concerned.  Other than that....

I believe that Chuck Missler said on one occasion that 13 of the Apollo astronauts had said publicly that they never went into outer space without seeing them.  A lot of it may be hoaxes, meteorites, atmospheric phenomenon, government and university experiments, and other things.  But a certain percentage of it's probably legit.  Some Christian authors point to occult ties to where their claim after doing lots of interviews is that nobody's ever seen them that hadn't dabbled in the occult.  So, an additional percentage may genuinely be demonic and/or angelic entities.  With the proliferation of sci-fi books, television, and movies, some of it could be psychosomatic where people saw something 'cause they were expecting to see something out there.

I don't have a problem with a certain percentage of it being genuine neighbors.  There's a planet that's supposed to be about 41 light-years from here, if I'm remembering right, that might possibly support life.  Obviously, this gets into scientific theory with worm holes, faster than light travel, whether black holes are emphatically destructive or whether they can in any way be manipulated to have control over space and time to any degree and/or for any particular purposes. 

I think that there are things out there that are simply a part of God's Creation, without necessarily having a malevolent intent.  Perhaps even whole planets that are nothing but beautiful aquariums.  How many worlds with intelligent life capable of getting around, I'm not sure if the Bible specifies although I do believe that it mentions them repeatedly – though I'm not sure which references might be referencing something demonic and which might just be descendants of Enoch and/or of others.  There's probably billions of worlds out there with life on them, but which planets stop at being simple bird cages with lots of plants and fish and which have something approximating what we'd consider advanced intelligence or intelligence comparable to our own, I'm not sure.  There could be a trillion worlds with life on them, but only a few thousand or a few hundred with life comparable in intelligence to ours or with advanced intelligence a bit beyond ours.

I do believe in multiple universes, which may account for where additional life would be located or the means by which they'd jump around from world to world via short-cuts, if any of them were either sufficiently intelligent enough to do so, or if any of them had that as simply a feature of how they were created in the way that some creatures on earth breathe air and others breathe water, fly, walk, etc.  Some creatures might conceivably live in outer space as though each world or asteroid they'd land on were analogous to a lily pad to a frog.  We do know that there's no such thing as space in a vaccum because of various particles, sub-atomic particules, superstrings, and other bubble-like phenomenon which probably has our data on the speed of light and other relevant data on the grossly inaccurate side or at least where it's overly simplistic to where it wouldn't take into account the dynamics of deep space travel and all that light would encounter on it's journey to us or from us.  If light coming to us from outer space is coming from the distant past, is light coming from us into outer space going into the distant future?  Is light coming from us into outer space going into the distant past to answer whatever light's come to us?  I've never seen an equation even touch that indirectly, unless any of the fields of relativity touch upon it and it went over my head.  It's an honest question on my part though.

Sooo much of life, as we know it, necessarily comes from death as both the Gospel and so many of the sciences teach us, whether you want to talk molecular biology or geology, geophysics, or various other fields.  We're assured by scientists that advanced human life is possible today because of all of the simpler life forms that have gone before us from about 3.95 billion years ago to the present, from single celled amoebas to the various chemical processes that have been their outcome in the soil, the atmosphere, etc.  From really bad storms to plate tectonics – it's  all seemingly been necessary for the preservation and furtherance of life, under the current laws of physics which are either the way that God intended them – as a framework within which to address the problem of evil – or whether they're totally the results of the fall.  (And I realize that some Christians differ by 6 zeroes, arguing for thousands instead of billions of years.  That's just more chaos or control than most mainstream scientists can currently comprehend, and the math and science does seem to point elsewhere, although young earth creationists do have a partial argument about "assigned ages" and a few basic assumptions in order to make the equations work.  But certain chemical processes and laws based upon the observable universe demand -- at least as of the current state of the union -- far more time to occur.)

I watch Smallville sometimes and genuinely wonder if our lives are built upon the graves of previous civilizations to that extent.  If perhaps in order to gain the full range of the proper nutrients in the right balances and the right molecular weights and energies associated with them, if perhaps there've been a thousand planet Kryptons that have exploded with all of their inhabitants in order for us to be here today.  Sooo much of history, archeology, anthropology, and the life sciences seem to be shrouded in soooo much death and darkness, that I can't help but wonder sometimes if God would have either gone that far or allowed things to have gone that far for us to have clothes on our backs and a few cents in our pockets.  Were that the case, then we're obviously not privy to the details of their relationship with God, their repentance issues that weren't taken seriously, and the circumstances of either their removal to other planets or planes of existence that would have made it far better for them than the situations that they were in.  Allegedly, the universe "as we know it" is 15.957 billion years old – at least as much of it as has been seen, measured, is observable, and testable with our current scientific equipment.  That's a lot of time for a lot of history.

Again, there's the chance that there's genuinely countless lives out there in the cosmos, but that the only thing that we've currently seen, or thought that we've seen being divided between natural lighting phenomenon, government experiments, and the angelic and demonic realms.  What's the price of gas in the Andromeda galaxy and how many light-years do they get to the gallon, kapish?  How practical is deep space travel with the economy being what it is 250 million light-years from here?  We could be seeing the future, quantum phenomenon because of various experiments of nuclear and other technologies, or other things going on whenever there's the report of seeing UFOs.  I've seen 'em before, but I don't know what I saw.  Could some of the ships that I've thought that I've seen been metallic hydrogen in the upper-levels of the atmosphere doing interesting things with light and electromagnetism?  Could it have been some type of random super-string and/or gravitational phenomenon?  Weather balloons?  Billionaires with too much time and money on their hands?  Light projection/holographic equipment?

I emphatically believe in life on other planets, even within our own solar system with Jupiter and Saturn being likely candidates in my mind because they're two planets with a ring firmament around them that would recharge the magnetic field of the planet, filter out UVA, UVB, and UVC energies as it would use those energies to recharge the magnetic field, and do other cool stuff with allowing for a denser, but breathable atmosphere for either carbon based or silicon based life forms, magnification of outer space [in color] for a cooler view of outer space without being cooked by the various forms of radiation, etc.  And when I say breathable, I don't necessarily mean oxygen, and neither do I necessarily mean advanced life.  But plant life on all of the nearby planets is possible because of various atmospheric phenomenon on earth that could run off with seeds and less demanding microorganisms as far as living conditions would be concerned.  Solar winds, gravitational phenomenon, and passing debris, ice, and water could help to facilitate the spread of very tiny bits of primitive life.

Any life that were capable of traveling great distances would likely be what's called in biology "biologically immortal," like certain types of hydras, certain types of cells, certain types of jellyfish, etc., so that they wouldn't be limited by senescence.  Certain types of clams and of whales live for centuries, but with really long space travel, even a life-span of centuries wouldn't make such travel practical without biological immortality or technology that's beyond anything even conceived of in sci-fi that wouldn't get ripped apart by gravitation or string theory.  Worm holes are currently not viewed as the least bit reliable as a means of transportation.  They pop-up and close with the relative randomness of passing clouds in the sky.  They're little more than temporal stretch marks in space as the universe expands.  Attempting to travel at the speed of light or beyond would destroy the metabolic process of all species currently on the record because it would either create infinite mass, or the phenomenon of infinite mass for as long as one were trying to travel at such speeds.  It would be analogous to trying to hold one's breath 5 minutes longer than one is capable of.  You'd burst, faint, or stop your heart with the pressure just simply with that oversimplified analogy.  That doesn't even take into account the scary chance of turning one's self into a black hole by creating infinite gravity at one's event horizon with such a travel attempt.  If the pressures didn't get you, the collisions with everything being pulled towards you no doubt would.

[Molly]

I was thinking about this the other day. I know there are ufo's but I believe them to be our own secret technology.  As far as God is concerned,  I realize it is almost too much to believe true, but --what if--what if God created all of this,-- the universe,--  for us?  We search and search for other planets that have the right conditions for life, and fail to find them--too hot, too cold, too poisonous, no water, too dark, no living thing able to survive.  So what if we are the only ones, and he did all of this, the incomprehensible vastness and complexity of space, the richness and diversity of life on earth, for his beloved children?  Doesn't the Bible tell us this is so?   My experience with God is that if it is too good to be true, it's probably true. :laughing7:




14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. --Genesis 1



19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. --Genesis 2

[martincisneros]

I was thinking about this the other day. I know there are ufo's but I believe them to be our own secret technology.  As far as God is concerned,  I realize it is almost too much to believe true, but --what if--what if God created all of this,-- the universe,--  for us?  We search and search for other planets that have the right conditions for life, and fail to find them--too hot, too cold, too poisonous, no water, too dark, no living thing able to survive.  So what if we are the only ones, and he did all of this, the incomprehensible vastness and complexity of space, the richness and diversity of life on earth, for his beloved children?  Doesn't the Bible tell us this is so?   My experience with God is that if it is too good to be true, it's probably true. :laughing7:


14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. --Genesis 1


19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. --Genesis 2

After all that I've said, it's probably hard to believe, but I really don't have a problem with this perspective either.  The only thing that becomes problematic about it is how creative that God is and the thought that He didn't do very much for all of eternity past until He created man.  Innumerable angels, gold streets, a thing or two that it's just a given that we probably don't know about, and then no real big projects until the creation of Adam??  On the one hand, it doesn't seem to be His style with His level of creativity, and on the other hand, it's an amazing argument for UR to say that He spent trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of years (and beyond!!) thinking through each of our lives before He opened His mouth bursting with Parental Love, saying, "LIGHT BE!!!!!"

As I said, the subject of extra-terrestrials is simply an area where we genuinely don't know until we either bump into a variation of an aloe plant on a nearby planet or have a starship land in a ridiculously public place that's full of the media and people with cell phone cameras.

I do understand that it takes a universe as big as ours to have life like ours, even if we were the only ones in the entire cosmos.  The laws of physics, as we currently understand them, demand that God set up a nursery this big, otherwise life is completely impossible without being soooo supernaturally sustained [moment by moment] that eating, doctors, sleep, air conditioning, and drunk, noisy neighbors aren't necessary.

I just have a sneaky suspicion, that God either created life elsewhere or we did prior to the fall, as when God brought the animals to the man to see what His image would call them, and whatever the man called each of them, then THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE.

If we're completely "it," then I'm sure that we're not eternally all that there's going to be and God was simply waiting until we all came along to help to manage and instruct others in future eons.

[joyful1]

:icon_flower: Hi martincisneros and Molly!
Thank you both for such thoughtful responses!

Martincisneros, you said;
"The only possible relevant questions are whether they exist, whether or not they've been here, or could have been here, and if they have some type of redemptive provision made for them in the work of Christ."

1-- I am confused as to their existence. L. Ray Smith says emphatically that they do not exist. One of his reasons for believing that way is the fact that Eve is called the "mother of all living." People seem to be seeing something. But what I'm not sure.

2--Whatever they are, I believe that they've always been here, since there is nothing new under the sun. Flying disks in ancient Egypt or modern Roswell, no difference. Spheres in the sky over 15th century Europe or Alabama last month...its all been done before, as far as I can see.

3-- Concerning redemption. I'd like to thank you for pointing out
Colossians 1:15-20 to me. It is important to remember that ALL things were created by Him and for Him, that Christ has the preeminence in all things and that there is no name higher than His.

Ephesians 3:8-12
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ,
10 with the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He hath purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord,
12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

Do you think that this is saying that we (the church) will be the tool through which principalities and powers in heavenly places finally understand the manifold wisdom of God ?

And of course, would "aliens" fit under the category of "principalities and powers in heavenly places?" (btw, I believe that the spiritual application of that phrase simply means false doctrines that persist in the heavenly realm of our minds.) So, if these "things" are not living creatures, then perhaps they are demonic manifestations.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

In the end....

Romans 8:36-39
38 ...I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank you for this opportunity to speak to others about this.
Joyce :)

[Molly]

Hi joy--

Do you think that this is saying that we (the church) will be the tool through which principalities and powers in heavenly places finally understand the manifold wisdom of God ?

Yes!  How to put this:  from my point of view, satan was always in charge of this world until this was revealed to the saints--Christ in you, the hope of glory.  Once this is revealed to God's saints, satan is vanquished--


17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.--Luke 10


As far as the history of flight is concerned, why are we so arrogant as to think that nobody in ancient civilizations figured out how to fly before we did?  The Egyptians built the pyramids, should we really not consider that they had very advanced technology?  Nobody can figure out how they did that without advanced technology--therefore, they must have had it.

If we look closely, we can see that even in our own time, right now, there is a lot of modern history that has been hidden and lied about.  There is a lot of technology available to us right now that is kept secret, lest we be freed from, for instance,  paying 4 dollars a gallon at the gas tank so that a few elite can continue to control the world.  The history of the last 100 years is total lies, and even those of us who are living it cannot see it.

What a nice fallback for satan's minions:  don't blame us, the aliens forced us to do it!  I have no doubt they could produce 'aliens' tomorrow, whether guys in masks or robots, if they felt it was necessary to subdue an unruly population.  We talk to computers every day who talk back to us, just call customer service at any large corporation, and have a nice chat with a machine.

The purpose of power is to perpetrate itself, and only God would give up his own power to save others.  Satan won't give it up without a fight.  The word 'occult' means 'hidden,'  and those who practice the occult have always kept knowledge hidden from the masses, throughout all of history.  That's how they stay on top.

I do believe satan and his demons are real, and use and corrupt men for their purposes,  but I don't believe in extraterrestrials.  God promises us that all that is hidden (occult) shall be revealed.  Nothing will be hidden from the light of truth.  Once the darkness is illuminated, it disappears.

[martincisneros]

There's a lot of things that really don't make the least bit of sense to me about the first 11 chapters of Genesis, if we're to assume that they're in chronological order and if we're to assume that the Flood was global rather than just world-wide.  Some people are sooooo dogmatic about it having been a global flood, based upon what God said to Noah after the flood.  However, allowing that for a minute: what do we do with so and so who is the father of those who work with metal; so and so who is the father of musicians; so and so who is the father of those who live in tents, et. al.?

I've wondered if Adam changing her name to Eve (i.e. mother of the living) was meant more as a sarcasm 'cause he was still blaming her for getting them killed, banished from paradise, etc.  Perhaps he was mad enough for that to have even been a form of a divorce, but with her being the only woman around, it's not like there was really anywhere else to go.  So much of the ancient covenants included the issue of names to where there's genuinely not any way to know in this life how he'd of meant "Eve."

I agree that there are historical oddities surrounding the whole UFO phenomenon.  I don't have a problem with the view that "aliens" is one possible application of "principalities and powers in heavenly places."  That's how I exclusively took Colossians 1:15-20 prior to having seen the Universal Restoration in the Scriptures.  "Principalities and powers in the heavenlies" is definitely inclusive of them, though that's not the only thing that that's talking about.  On your question regarding Ephesians 3, that's what that means.  We're instrumental in the reclaiming [and instruction] of the fallen angels and of anything else either on this planet or throughout the universe, or multiverse.

I think that a lot of people hide behind the "there's no such thing as any of that" because of all of the additional questions and paranoias that they don't want to preoccupy themselves with for understandable reasons of wanting to avoid either spooking themselves or giving the subject more time than they think that it deserves.  This can easily get into the whole "are there aliens living amongst us?"  Is there a government agenda where the whole alien phenomenon is concerned?  Are aliens having input into our governmental policies?  Are they a part of the so-called "secret government?"  And a thousand other questions that most people find totally silly both from how preposterous that it is, and because of how fearful, paranoid, and preoccupied that other people become with those questions.  It's easier to say that there's nothing "out there," or nothing consequential than to have to face the flood of nonsense that easily accompanies it.  Alien relationships, alien voting rights, aliens smelling just like chicken, etc.  If aliens were confirmed amongst us tomorrow, would that make them have to release thousands of people from the mental hospitals? :mshock: :winkgrin:

It's easier to say that there's no such thing as aliens.  I've been tempted to start saying that too, with a mischievous look and tone in my voice like I'm lying and hiding something :laughing7:

But I'm not sure if I can do that without laughing too hard each time.  The subject is both silly and deeply interesting to where there's probably something out there.  A lot of Christians can't deal with that 'cause then it'll multiply their anxieties over the inherent nature of Christianity to where we are claiming a monopoly on the truth.  It's easier to face that down while you're only dealing with Hindus, tribal deities, Muslims, and a few religions down here without having to face 144,000 inhabited worlds this early in the game; during this life.

[Molly]

Interesting points, Martin.  And, it's interesting to note that when Adam names Eve he is prophesying, because how else would he know such a thing?


20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

--Genesis 3

And, what exactly does he mean by that, since 'all living' could include every living thing like animals and plants, as well, or it could mean the resurrected Christ and his heirs--it could mean both, as in a restored earth.  It is an ambiguous statement which he makes after God describes the enmity that will be between satan's seed and Eve's seed.


"living"

H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: -  + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.



H2421
חיה
châyâh
khaw-yaw'
A prim root (compare H2331, H2424); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively to revive: - keep (leave, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

[joyful1]

Hi Molly--
In going back over your post about "lights in the heavens" and "Eve's name"....
There is a lot here. I hope that I've understood your message correctly....please forgive otherwise!

The Genesis account continually baffles me as well...
I'm thinking that the spiritual meaning of these words must be used to unravel it all...to "reveal" what it really means. When we get to a really weird part of Scripture, we can't just read it, and then say we've got it.  We need Him to "reveal them" to us....in the same way that the salvation of all scriptures had to be revealed to us by Him. I say this with some evidence to back it up....having spent some 30+ years of trying to figure it out by "reading it in context," and STILL not getting it!  :sigh:

I'll give you the first example that comes to mind...
"To give light upon the earth"  This is one of those phrases that can evoke a natural picture of starlight glittering on snow, or the sun brightening the horizon at sunrise.  But that phrase can ALSO bring to mind the thoughts about the Father of LIGHTS/ who is One with the Son/Jesus/The Word.... being "a LIGHT unto our path." (and us...being the earth....earthy....from the dust....from Adam).

Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

You see what I mean?  I'm probably being redundant here seeing as how you have already given some great explanations alluding to such cases. Forgive me if I proceed at a speed inversely proportionate to the speed of light.....pun intended! :laughing7:
Joyce :)

[Pierac]

Hi Joyful,

:welcome:

Paul

[joyful1]

 :icon_flower:
Hi Paul!
Joyce :)

[autoimmune]

Hello, Joyful.  I'm new here myself and am reading the other intro threads to get to know people a bit.  I'm conspracy woo-woo myself and enjoy these topics, maybe because they are speculative and dont require a very strict adherence to scholastic research that others might.  I'm hoping it's okay for me to jump in on the topic.

Do you think that this is saying that we (the church) will be the tool through which principalities and powers in heavenly places finally understand the manifold wisdom of God ?

One of the thoughts UR brought to mind for me was the question of whether or not satan and his angels will be restored as well.  THe Christian assumption has always been no, he's gonna suffer eternally.

Yet, UR says all things in creation, so . . . I have to question that assumption. 
.
I've always felt that God created us out of Love.  That the natural impulse of Love is to have an "other" to love and be loved by.  No ulterior motive, just Love.  Man was created as an impulse of Love.

Yet, if the angels were created before us, pure spirits, God HAD that "other" being to fulfill His Love.  Why the necessity for man?

I wonder sometimes if man wasn't created as the means of the redemption of the fallen angels. Still, an act of Love, but connected to God's Love for His other creations as well.

If we draw a parallel between the way in which Christ redeemed us (death, resurrection), then couldn't He have done that in the same way for the fallen angels--without creation of man?

But, if angels are pure spirit, then wouldn't it take a pure spirit's death to redeem them?  If God is pure Spirit, then He cannot die, so the redemption of the fallen angels would be impossible.

However, Christ as man could die for man, while Christ the Divine Spirit lives . . . so no problem.  Create man, knowing he would fall, be redeemed, and then IN Christ, man becomes the means of salvation for the fallen angels through Christ's death for them.

Oddly enough, this makes sense of a couple of things I questioned.

1.  Why would God have allowed satan to tempt Eve to begin with and bring evil into the world?

2.  If, as it's been said, Satan fell because he resented God placing man lower than Himself but above the angels, then it makes sense why God would have created us to be in that place.  Never could figure out why man should be higher than the angels.  But, this would be necessary if redemption of fallen angels is possible.

Also, kind of a catch-22 circular logic, but it works me me, at least for now as an interesting thing to consider.

Might also answer the question you and others raise about why Eve is called the mother of all living . . .

Mary Ellen
Any thoughts on this?

[joyful1]

Hi MaryEllen!
I'm only beginning this study....I have so much to learn! Your questions are valid questions, but I don't know the answers.

At this point, after seeing so many sincere witnesses with credible evidence about aliens, I'm inclined to say that I believe people are seeing and/or experiencing something.....but that something could be God answering them according to the idols of their heart, (like Saul who wanted to see a ghost, therefore he saw a ghost)...that something could be demonic beings manifesting as Earth Visitors to bring about a grand delusion on a global scale....or they could be the "other sheep" that Jesus talked about; which I tend to interpret as genuine "other" worldly races.

But the fact remains that scripture says:

Romans 8

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Whatever "they" are....
they seem to be "fascinated" with humans....
"they" also seem to have been here all along....
and I speculate that "they" have been awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God and that is why they are so curious about us!

Does that seem like a fair assessment to you?
Joyce :)

[autoimmune]

Hi MaryEllen!
I'm only beginning this study....I have so much to learn! Your questions are valid questions, but I don't know the answers.

<Smile> Hehehehe, thats good, because I dont have them either when it comes to these subjects, just lots of speculations!

The nice thing about that is we get to explore together.  Always something to be thankful for!

I'm kind of tired this evening, Joyful, so I'm signing off for this evening, but I do want to continue this conversation because (to answer you last question) yes, that did sound like a fair assessment.  And I was intrigued by the thought of aliens awaiting the manifestation of the sons of man.

You are a very interesting person, Joyful1. I like the way your mind works.

Till later, then,
ME 

[martincisneros]

 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(Revelation 12:7-12 KJV)

Because of what it says in Ephesians, I'd previously taken verse 12 to exclusively be talking about Christians when it would say "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them."  But this is a chapter that starts with imagery that seems easy to make into some type of constellation alignment into the drama that it's describing.  If you can see the depiction of some type of constellation alignment in this chapter, the way that I do -- regardless of whatever it may mean, and whether it's been fulfilled or is yet to be fulfilled, who are these that dwell in the heavens?  Would they include extra-terrestrials in the modern expectation of extra-terrestrials?  And in saying "in the modern expectation," I'm not talking about whether they're little green men, grays, or whatever.  Just intelligent life that's not in what various verses in the Old Testament would call "the heaven of heavens," but spacially and perhaps demensionally closer to where this natural realm would be concerned.

[joyful1]

ME--thanks, honey, but after raising 7 kids...I'm just glad its still functioning! Yes...I'm looking forward to getting to hear your  opinion on this! :icon_flower:

Good Point Martin!
If we assume that the "aliens" are angelic in nature....
and IF we assume that there are both good and bad angels in the universe surrounding our physical planet....

then the bad ones could be (or already have been, depending on your understanding of scriptural history) cast down to the earth, causing a lot of problems for mankind. And the good ones could remain to "rejoice in the heavens," seeing as how the outcome is already determined. Being constrained to the immediate space around the earth seems plausible...they seem to materialize and dematerialize in the upper atmosphere and just beyond, but not in deep space. If you are going with "fallen angels" and believe in the place "to the north" of the earth as being there "original estate" then being cast "down" to the space surrounding the earth and the earth itself would make sense. I'm going back into the OT tonight and check that out myself, I could be wrong in that assumption as its been some time since I looked at the whole "fallen angel" scenario.

I tend to believe that the phrase "the heavens," is not a physical place but a spiritual realm. Although, I can certainly believe in a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality, and I can also look at the physical "patterns" that God uses to explain spiritual truths to us. So, I have to say that the above is a valid possibility as far as I can tell at this point.

Doesn't anyone have and extra copy of "Aliens and UFOS For Idiots" ? I need to borrow one!  :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Mary Ellen... :hithere:

In reading in this thread, you noted a few things which caught my eye... I'd like to comment on them...  :grin:

You asked, "any thoughts"...  :dunno:

Well, ...I mean no personal offense to you in this post,  :boyheart: ...but I DO mean to point out the flaws in your proposals...  :shakepoint:

Yet, if the angels were created before us, pure spirits, God HAD that "other" being to fulfill His Love. 

Where does it say ANGELS were CREATED?  And the word BEFORE, suggests TIME, ...not ETERNITY... where "ANGELS" actually dwell...

Why the necessity for man?

This is a very good question Mary Ellen...  :yes:

But the answer might not be what you think...  :dontknow:

"Man" is the EARTHY vessel which GOD created that HIS SONS exist IN, while gaining the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

This PROCESS, could not be done in the HOLY environment, rather has occured in the created (LAB / classroom, of) "TIME"...

The SONS of GOD have ALWAYS been... (Job 38:7) they emerged from the ETERNAL, and... after the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil is gained via EXPERIENCE in TIME... RETURN back, to the point or place, they ENTERED time...  which ...IS... ETERNITY...

We cannot "RETURN" to a place we never WERE...  :mshock:

Read the Parable of the Prodigal son in Luke 15... the "prodigal" or foolish son, was WITH the FATHER, ...left, ...then, after a wasted and foolish experience, ...RETURNED... to the place he was ORIGINALLY, ...with the FATHER.

I wonder sometimes if man wasn't created as the means of the redemption of the fallen angels. Still, an act of Love, but connected to God's Love for His other creations as well.

If we draw a parallel between the way in which Christ redeemed us (death, resurrection), then couldn't He have done that in the same way for the fallen angels--without creation of man?

But, if angels are pure spirit, then wouldn't it take a pure spirit's death to redeem them?  If God is pure Spirit, then He cannot die, so the redemption of the fallen angels would be impossible.

First... Scripture REFUTES your theory...  :punish: In the words of JESUS CHRIST, ...NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD...   :dontknow: (Matt 19:26 / Mk 10:27)

Second... FALLEN ANGELS?  Where is this written Mary Ellen?  :JCThink:

And if ANGELS "fell", what is to keep this from happening AGAIN?  By either ANGELS or SONS?  :prankster:

This type of baseless theological thinking is a SCRIPTURELESS portion of the ORTHODOX lie... and makes GOD nothing more than a "tinkering scientist" that just can't seem to "get it right"  :thumbdown:

Not ALMIGHTY, ...Not OMNISCIENT... Not OMNIPOTENT... just another bumbling being which makes mistakes, and finds things OUTSIDE of His abilities...  :doh: :BangHead: :faint:

1.  Why would God have allowed satan to tempt Eve to begin with and bring evil into the world?

2.  If, as it's been said, Satan fell because he resented God placing man lower than Himself but above the angels, then it makes sense why God would have created us to be in that place.  Never could figure out why man should be higher than the angels.  But, this would be necessary if redemption of fallen angels is possible.

Where does it SAY that "satan" ...FELL? 

Man is HIGHER than the ANGELS because MEN are the SONS of GOD, which are HIS BODY and HIS TEMPLE... simple!  :dontknow:

peacE...
...willieH  :cloud9: