Tentmaker Forum

Hello everyone!
I'm a member over at BT, have been for a couple of years learning about the "Saviour of all men..." I go by the same name over there, should you care to check out my views on various topics. I enjoy fellowshipping with like minded believers and have a thirst for The Truth.

I believe that the Kingdom of God is within, and that the spiritual universe is preminent; that everything "seen" is made from "the unseen."  However, I have a few questions in my mind about the physical universe and would like to see what you are learning about them over here, if that is ok with you.

I'm a married, 50 something mom of seven, who enjoys first and foremost reading and studying the Word of God. I'm also intrested in history, archaeology, physics, medicine and law, and how these topics relate to God's plan for the salvation of all.

So, with that all said....hello!
Joyce :)

Welcome!  Hopefully you'll learn some, but it also sounds like you'll add to us here.  Thanks for coming in.  God's blessing, James.

Thanks James!  :icon_flower:

Quote from: joyful1 on June 07, 2008, 02:35:20 PM
Hello everyone!
I'm a member over at BT, have been for a couple of years learning about the "Saviour of all men..." I go by the same name over there, should you care to check out my views on various topics. I enjoy fellowshipping with like minded believers and have a thirst for The Truth.

I believe that the Kingdom of God is within, and that the spiritual universe is preminent; that everything "seen" is made from "the unseen."  However, I have a few questions in my mind about the physical universe and would like to see what you are learning about them over here, if that is ok with you.

I'm a married, 50 something mom of seven, who enjoys first and foremost reading and studying the Word of God. I'm also intrested in history, archaeology, physics, medicine and law, and how these topics relate to God's plan for the salvation of all.

So, with that all said....hello!
Joyce :)

A fellow polymath :cloud9:

:omg: :welcome: to Tentmaker :Urock:

I guess I'm not a polymath, as I had to Google it to see what it meant   :Book:.  Duh, also, what's BT?  I'd like to check it out.

Thanks for all the warm welcomes...those icons are funny!
Jabcat, Bible_Truths.com.
Joyce :)

Thanks!  I'll look.

Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2008, 06:10:45 AM
I guess I'm not a polymath, as I had to Google it to see what it meant   :Book:.  Duh, also, what's BT?  I'd like to check it out.

Don't feel so bad, Jabcat.  It's not a very common word, so I googled it before using it, just to be on the safe side that I was using the word correctly.  [Wikipedia says about polymath: The term is used rarely enough to be included in dictionaries of obscure words.]  Googling words is a personal obsession, though where I'll look up quite a few of the words that I use before I'll use them 'cause of having a bit of a perfectionist kick about my choice in wording.  The small handful of times that I've been wrong about the usage of a word over the last 20 something years, it's been about as bad and about as funny as a scene out of one of the Rush Hour movies where what's his name was trying to pretend that he knew Chinese when he emphatically didn't.  I'm usually either 100% right on the usage of a word in something I'm about to write, or it's sink in your school desk absolute humiliation with no real in-betweens.  I'm more apt to make that mistake than a lot of other folks 'cause I read a lot of older books and I don't always detect the change in meanings over the decades/centuries.  For instance, what the Founding Fathers of the United States meant by "Oligarchy" 225+ years ago is best expressed by the word "Krytocracy" these days.  Although occasionally they did mean "Oligarchy" in the modern sense of an aristocracy, so it's a bit tricky, depending on context.  And, no, I'm not tellin' how many times I googled for this post :msealed: :mblush:

martincisneros, what's your take on extraterrestrials? I realize that this is a controversial subject, so if I've brought up something that you don't want discussed here, just say so! No problem!   :icon_flower:
Joyce :)

Quote from: joyful1 on June 10, 2008, 02:02:12 AM
martincisneros, what's your take on extraterrestrials? I realize that this is a controversial subject, so if I've brought up something that you don't want discussed here, just say so! No problem!   :icon_flower:
Joyce :)

I don't mind briefly going there 'cause it's not the type of subject that would overpower the boards or polarize opinions too badly.  The only possible relevant questions are whether they exist, whether or not they've been here, or could have been here, and if they have some type of redemptive provision made for them in the work of Christ.  The last part of that briefly touches on the UR subject.  Because we aren't privy to the details of their spiritual needs and the level of relationship they're capable of with God, it's virtually pointless to speculate about their place in redemption other than to say that if they're tainted by sin and/or curse, then Christ is obviously their answer at whatever time He wishes to personally deal with all of that or to take us to those worlds to deal with all of that.  I believe the Scripture mentions them, but there aren't sufficient details to speculate on their whereabouts, their nature, their needs, or their intents if we came into contact with them.  So much of myth and legend could have even been true when it teetered on that subject, but it could involve descriptions of creatures that are extinct.  That's a possibility that's not often looked at by UFO enthusiasts.  Anything "out there" could have gone extinct eons ago.  Colossians 1:15-20 gives about the only possible answer as far as Christ reconciling even the things in the heavenlies with His Blood.  If they have issues that need to be addressed along those lines, then that's the provision.  Otherwise, they might be in the category of innocent animals that have been victims and prey because of either Angelic sin or Adam's sin.  Again, there aren't enough details for a reasonable hypothesis, and only speculation is possible as far as God's eternal plans where any such life would be concerned.  Other than that....

I believe that Chuck Missler said on one occasion that 13 of the Apollo astronauts had said publicly that they never went into outer space without seeing them.  A lot of it may be hoaxes, meteorites, atmospheric phenomenon, government and university experiments, and other things.  But a certain percentage of it's probably legit.  Some Christian authors point to occult ties to where their claim after doing lots of interviews is that nobody's ever seen them that hadn't dabbled in the occult.  So, an additional percentage may genuinely be demonic and/or angelic entities.  With the proliferation of sci-fi books, television, and movies, some of it could be psychosomatic where people saw something 'cause they were expecting to see something out there.

I don't have a problem with a certain percentage of it being genuine neighbors.  There's a planet that's supposed to be about 41 light-years from here, if I'm remembering right, that might possibly support life.  Obviously, this gets into scientific theory with worm holes, faster than light travel, whether black holes are emphatically destructive or whether they can in any way be manipulated to have control over space and time to any degree and/or for any particular purposes. 

I think that there are things out there that are simply a part of God's Creation, without necessarily having a malevolent intent.  Perhaps even whole planets that are nothing but beautiful aquariums.  How many worlds with intelligent life capable of getting around, I'm not sure if the Bible specifies although I do believe that it mentions them repeatedly – though I'm not sure which references might be referencing something demonic and which might just be descendants of Enoch and/or of others.  There's probably billions of worlds out there with life on them, but which planets stop at being simple bird cages with lots of plants and fish and which have something approximating what we'd consider advanced intelligence or intelligence comparable to our own, I'm not sure.  There could be a trillion worlds with life on them, but only a few thousand or a few hundred with life comparable in intelligence to ours or with advanced intelligence a bit beyond ours.

I do believe in multiple universes, which may account for where additional life would be located or the means by which they'd jump around from world to world via short-cuts, if any of them were either sufficiently intelligent enough to do so, or if any of them had that as simply a feature of how they were created in the way that some creatures on earth breathe air and others breathe water, fly, walk, etc.  Some creatures might conceivably live in outer space as though each world or asteroid they'd land on were analogous to a lily pad to a frog.  We do know that there's no such thing as space in a vaccum because of various particles, sub-atomic particules, superstrings, and other bubble-like phenomenon which probably has our data on the speed of light and other relevant data on the grossly inaccurate side or at least where it's overly simplistic to where it wouldn't take into account the dynamics of deep space travel and all that light would encounter on it's journey to us or from us.  If light coming to us from outer space is coming from the distant past, is light coming from us into outer space going into the distant future?  Is light coming from us into outer space going into the distant past to answer whatever light's come to us?  I've never seen an equation even touch that indirectly, unless any of the fields of relativity touch upon it and it went over my head.  It's an honest question on my part though.

Sooo much of life, as we know it, necessarily comes from death as both the Gospel and so many of the sciences teach us, whether you want to talk molecular biology or geology, geophysics, or various other fields.  We're assured by scientists that advanced human life is possible today because of all of the simpler life forms that have gone before us from about 3.95 billion years ago to the present, from single celled amoebas to the various chemical processes that have been their outcome in the soil, the atmosphere, etc.  From really bad storms to plate tectonics – it's  all seemingly been necessary for the preservation and furtherance of life, under the current laws of physics which are either the way that God intended them – as a framework within which to address the problem of evil – or whether they're totally the results of the fall.  (And I realize that some Christians differ by 6 zeroes, arguing for thousands instead of billions of years.  That's just more chaos or control than most mainstream scientists can currently comprehend, and the math and science does seem to point elsewhere, although young earth creationists do have a partial argument about "assigned ages" and a few basic assumptions in order to make the equations work.  But certain chemical processes and laws based upon the observable universe demand -- at least as of the current state of the union -- far more time to occur.)

I watch Smallville sometimes and genuinely wonder if our lives are built upon the graves of previous civilizations to that extent.  If perhaps in order to gain the full range of the proper nutrients in the right balances and the right molecular weights and energies associated with them, if perhaps there've been a thousand planet Kryptons that have exploded with all of their inhabitants in order for us to be here today.  Sooo much of history, archeology, anthropology, and the life sciences seem to be shrouded in soooo much death and darkness, that I can't help but wonder sometimes if God would have either gone that far or allowed things to have gone that far for us to have clothes on our backs and a few cents in our pockets.  Were that the case, then we're obviously not privy to the details of their relationship with God, their repentance issues that weren't taken seriously, and the circumstances of either their removal to other planets or planes of existence that would have made it far better for them than the situations that they were in.  Allegedly, the universe "as we know it" is 15.957 billion years old – at least as much of it as has been seen, measured, is observable, and testable with our current scientific equipment.  That's a lot of time for a lot of history.

Again, there's the chance that there's genuinely countless lives out there in the cosmos, but that the only thing that we've currently seen, or thought that we've seen being divided between natural lighting phenomenon, government experiments, and the angelic and demonic realms.  What's the price of gas in the Andromeda galaxy and how many light-years do they get to the gallon, kapish?  How practical is deep space travel with the economy being what it is 250 million light-years from here?  We could be seeing the future, quantum phenomenon because of various experiments of nuclear and other technologies, or other things going on whenever there's the report of seeing UFOs.  I've seen 'em before, but I don't know what I saw.  Could some of the ships that I've thought that I've seen been metallic hydrogen in the upper-levels of the atmosphere doing interesting things with light and electromagnetism?  Could it have been some type of random super-string and/or gravitational phenomenon?  Weather balloons?  Billionaires with too much time and money on their hands?  Light projection/holographic equipment?

I emphatically believe in life on other planets, even within our own solar system with Jupiter and Saturn being likely candidates in my mind because they're two planets with a ring firmament around them that would recharge the magnetic field of the planet, filter out UVA, UVB, and UVC energies as it would use those energies to recharge the magnetic field, and do other cool stuff with allowing for a denser, but breathable atmosphere for either carbon based or silicon based life forms, magnification of outer space [in color] for a cooler view of outer space without being cooked by the various forms of radiation, etc.  And when I say breathable, I don't necessarily mean oxygen, and neither do I necessarily mean advanced life.  But plant life on all of the nearby planets is possible because of various atmospheric phenomenon on earth that could run off with seeds and less demanding microorganisms as far as living conditions would be concerned.  Solar winds, gravitational phenomenon, and passing debris, ice, and water could help to facilitate the spread of very tiny bits of primitive life.

Any life that were capable of traveling great distances would likely be what's called in biology "biologically immortal," like certain types of hydras, certain types of cells, certain types of jellyfish, etc., so that they wouldn't be limited by senescence.  Certain types of clams and of whales live for centuries, but with really long space travel, even a life-span of centuries wouldn't make such travel practical without biological immortality or technology that's beyond anything even conceived of in sci-fi that wouldn't get ripped apart by gravitation or string theory.  Worm holes are currently not viewed as the least bit reliable as a means of transportation.  They pop-up and close with the relative randomness of passing clouds in the sky.  They're little more than temporal stretch marks in space as the universe expands.  Attempting to travel at the speed of light or beyond would destroy the metabolic process of all species currently on the record because it would either create infinite mass, or the phenomenon of infinite mass for as long as one were trying to travel at such speeds.  It would be analogous to trying to hold one's breath 5 minutes longer than one is capable of.  You'd burst, faint, or stop your heart with the pressure just simply with that oversimplified analogy.  That doesn't even take into account the scary chance of turning one's self into a black hole by creating infinite gravity at one's event horizon with such a travel attempt.  If the pressures didn't get you, the collisions with everything being pulled towards you no doubt would.

I was thinking about this the other day. I know there are ufo's but I believe them to be our own secret technology.  As far as God is concerned,  I realize it is almost too much to believe true, but --what if--what if God created all of this,-- the universe,--  for us?  We search and search for other planets that have the right conditions for life, and fail to find them--too hot, too cold, too poisonous, no water, too dark, no living thing able to survive.  So what if we are the only ones, and he did all of this, the incomprehensible vastness and complexity of space, the richness and diversity of life on earth, for his beloved children?  Doesn't the Bible tell us this is so?   My experience with God is that if it is too good to be true, it's probably true. :laughing7:




14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. --Genesis 1



19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. --Genesis 2

Quote from: Molly on June 10, 2008, 05:53:04 PM
I was thinking about this the other day. I know there are ufo's but I believe them to be our own secret technology.  As far as God is concerned,  I realize it is almost too much to believe true, but --what if--what if God created all of this,-- the universe,--  for us?  We search and search for other planets that have the right conditions for life, and fail to find them--too hot, too cold, too poisonous, no water, too dark, no living thing able to survive.  So what if we are the only ones, and he did all of this, the incomprehensible vastness and complexity of space, the richness and diversity of life on earth, for his beloved children?  Doesn't the Bible tell us this is so?   My experience with God is that if it is too good to be true, it's probably true. :laughing7:


14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. --Genesis 1


19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. --Genesis 2

After all that I've said, it's probably hard to believe, but I really don't have a problem with this perspective either.  The only thing that becomes problematic about it is how creative that God is and the thought that He didn't do very much for all of eternity past until He created man.  Innumerable angels, gold streets, a thing or two that it's just a given that we probably don't know about, and then no real big projects until the creation of Adam??  On the one hand, it doesn't seem to be His style with His level of creativity, and on the other hand, it's an amazing argument for UR to say that He spent trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of years (and beyond!!) thinking through each of our lives before He opened His mouth bursting with Parental Love, saying, "LIGHT BE!!!!!"

As I said, the subject of extra-terrestrials is simply an area where we genuinely don't know until we either bump into a variation of an aloe plant on a nearby planet or have a starship land in a ridiculously public place that's full of the media and people with cell phone cameras.

I do understand that it takes a universe as big as ours to have life like ours, even if we were the only ones in the entire cosmos.  The laws of physics, as we currently understand them, demand that God set up a nursery this big, otherwise life is completely impossible without being soooo supernaturally sustained [moment by moment] that eating, doctors, sleep, air conditioning, and drunk, noisy neighbors aren't necessary.

I just have a sneaky suspicion, that God either created life elsewhere or we did prior to the fall, as when God brought the animals to the man to see what His image would call them, and whatever the man called each of them, then THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE.

If we're completely "it," then I'm sure that we're not eternally all that there's going to be and God was simply waiting until we all came along to help to manage and instruct others in future eons.

 :icon_flower: Hi martincisneros and Molly!
Thank you both for such thoughtful responses!

Martincisneros, you said;
"The only possible relevant questions are whether they exist, whether or not they've been here, or could have been here, and if they have some type of redemptive provision made for them in the work of Christ."

1-- I am confused as to their existence. L. Ray Smith says emphatically that they do not exist. One of his reasons for believing that way is the fact that Eve is called the "mother of all living." People seem to be seeing something. But what I'm not sure.

2--Whatever they are, I believe that they've always been here, since there is nothing new under the sun. Flying disks in ancient Egypt or modern Roswell, no difference. Spheres in the sky over 15th century Europe or Alabama last month...its all been done before, as far as I can see.

3-- Concerning redemption. I'd like to thank you for pointing out
Colossians 1:15-20 to me. It is important to remember that ALL things were created by Him and for Him, that Christ has the preeminence in all things and that there is no name higher than His.

Ephesians 3:8-12
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ,
10 with the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He hath purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord,
12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

Do you think that this is saying that we (the church) will be the tool through which principalities and powers in heavenly places finally understand the manifold wisdom of God ?

And of course, would "aliens" fit under the category of "principalities and powers in heavenly places?" (btw, I believe that the spiritual application of that phrase simply means false doctrines that persist in the heavenly realm of our minds.) So, if these "things" are not living creatures, then perhaps they are demonic manifestations.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

In the end....

Romans 8:36-39
38 ...I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank you for this opportunity to speak to others about this.
Joyce :)

Hi joy--

QuoteDo you think that this is saying that we (the church) will be the tool through which principalities and powers in heavenly places finally understand the manifold wisdom of God ?

Yes!  How to put this:  from my point of view, satan was always in charge of this world until this was revealed to the saints--Christ in you, the hope of glory.  Once this is revealed to God's saints, satan is vanquished--


17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.--Luke 10


As far as the history of flight is concerned, why are we so arrogant as to think that nobody in ancient civilizations figured out how to fly before we did?  The Egyptians built the pyramids, should we really not consider that they had very advanced technology?  Nobody can figure out how they did that without advanced technology--therefore, they must have had it.

If we look closely, we can see that even in our own time, right now, there is a lot of modern history that has been hidden and lied about.  There is a lot of technology available to us right now that is kept secret, lest we be freed from, for instance,  paying 4 dollars a gallon at the gas tank so that a few elite can continue to control the world.  The history of the last 100 years is total lies, and even those of us who are living it cannot see it.

What a nice fallback for satan's minions:  don't blame us, the aliens forced us to do it!  I have no doubt they could produce 'aliens' tomorrow, whether guys in masks or robots, if they felt it was necessary to subdue an unruly population.  We talk to computers every day who talk back to us, just call customer service at any large corporation, and have a nice chat with a machine.

The purpose of power is to perpetrate itself, and only God would give up his own power to save others.  Satan won't give it up without a fight.  The word 'occult' means 'hidden,'  and those who practice the occult have always kept knowledge hidden from the masses, throughout all of history.  That's how they stay on top.

I do believe satan and his demons are real, and use and corrupt men for their purposes,  but I don't believe in extraterrestrials.  God promises us that all that is hidden (occult) shall be revealed.  Nothing will be hidden from the light of truth.  Once the darkness is illuminated, it disappears.

There's a lot of things that really don't make the least bit of sense to me about the first 11 chapters of Genesis, if we're to assume that they're in chronological order and if we're to assume that the Flood was global rather than just world-wide.  Some people are sooooo dogmatic about it having been a global flood, based upon what God said to Noah after the flood.  However, allowing that for a minute: what do we do with so and so who is the father of those who work with metal; so and so who is the father of musicians; so and so who is the father of those who live in tents, et. al.?

I've wondered if Adam changing her name to Eve (i.e. mother of the living) was meant more as a sarcasm 'cause he was still blaming her for getting them killed, banished from paradise, etc.  Perhaps he was mad enough for that to have even been a form of a divorce, but with her being the only woman around, it's not like there was really anywhere else to go.  So much of the ancient covenants included the issue of names to where there's genuinely not any way to know in this life how he'd of meant "Eve."

I agree that there are historical oddities surrounding the whole UFO phenomenon.  I don't have a problem with the view that "aliens" is one possible application of "principalities and powers in heavenly places."  That's how I exclusively took Colossians 1:15-20 prior to having seen the Universal Restoration in the Scriptures.  "Principalities and powers in the heavenlies" is definitely inclusive of them, though that's not the only thing that that's talking about.  On your question regarding Ephesians 3, that's what that means.  We're instrumental in the reclaiming [and instruction] of the fallen angels and of anything else either on this planet or throughout the universe, or multiverse.

I think that a lot of people hide behind the "there's no such thing as any of that" because of all of the additional questions and paranoias that they don't want to preoccupy themselves with for understandable reasons of wanting to avoid either spooking themselves or giving the subject more time than they think that it deserves.  This can easily get into the whole "are there aliens living amongst us?"  Is there a government agenda where the whole alien phenomenon is concerned?  Are aliens having input into our governmental policies?  Are they a part of the so-called "secret government?"  And a thousand other questions that most people find totally silly both from how preposterous that it is, and because of how fearful, paranoid, and preoccupied that other people become with those questions.  It's easier to say that there's nothing "out there," or nothing consequential than to have to face the flood of nonsense that easily accompanies it.  Alien relationships, alien voting rights, aliens smelling just like chicken, etc.  If aliens were confirmed amongst us tomorrow, would that make them have to release thousands of people from the mental hospitals? :mshock: :winkgrin:

It's easier to say that there's no such thing as aliens.  I've been tempted to start saying that too, with a mischievous look and tone in my voice like I'm lying and hiding something :laughing7:

But I'm not sure if I can do that without laughing too hard each time.  The subject is both silly and deeply interesting to where there's probably something out there.  A lot of Christians can't deal with that 'cause then it'll multiply their anxieties over the inherent nature of Christianity to where we are claiming a monopoly on the truth.  It's easier to face that down while you're only dealing with Hindus, tribal deities, Muslims, and a few religions down here without having to face 144,000 inhabited worlds this early in the game; during this life.

Interesting points, Martin.  And, it's interesting to note that when Adam names Eve he is prophesying, because how else would he know such a thing?


20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

--Genesis 3

And, what exactly does he mean by that, since 'all living' could include every living thing like animals and plants, as well, or it could mean the resurrected Christ and his heirs--it could mean both, as in a restored earth.  It is an ambiguous statement which he makes after God describes the enmity that will be between satan's seed and Eve's seed.


"living"

H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: -  + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.



H2421
חיה
châyâh
khaw-yaw'
A prim root (compare H2331, H2424); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively to revive: - keep (leave, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

Hi Molly--
In going back over your post about "lights in the heavens" and "Eve's name"....
There is a lot here. I hope that I've understood your message correctly....please forgive otherwise!

The Genesis account continually baffles me as well...
I'm thinking that the spiritual meaning of these words must be used to unravel it all...to "reveal" what it really means. When we get to a really weird part of Scripture, we can't just read it, and then say we've got it.  We need Him to "reveal them" to us....in the same way that the salvation of all scriptures had to be revealed to us by Him. I say this with some evidence to back it up....having spent some 30+ years of trying to figure it out by "reading it in context," and STILL not getting it!  :sigh:

I'll give you the first example that comes to mind...
"To give light upon the earth"  This is one of those phrases that can evoke a natural picture of starlight glittering on snow, or the sun brightening the horizon at sunrise.  But that phrase can ALSO bring to mind the thoughts about the Father of LIGHTS/ who is One with the Son/Jesus/The Word.... being "a LIGHT unto our path." (and us...being the earth....earthy....from the dust....from Adam).

Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

You see what I mean?  I'm probably being redundant here seeing as how you have already given some great explanations alluding to such cases. Forgive me if I proceed at a speed inversely proportionate to the speed of light.....pun intended! :laughing7:
Joyce :)

Hi Joyful,

:welcome:

Paul

 :icon_flower:
Hi Paul!
Joyce :)

Hello, Joyful.  I'm new here myself and am reading the other intro threads to get to know people a bit.  I'm conspracy woo-woo myself and enjoy these topics, maybe because they are speculative and dont require a very strict adherence to scholastic research that others might.  I'm hoping it's okay for me to jump in on the topic.

Quote from: joyful1 on June 11, 2008, 04:24:19 PM
Do you think that this is saying that we (the church) will be the tool through which principalities and powers in heavenly places finally understand the manifold wisdom of God ?

One of the thoughts UR brought to mind for me was the question of whether or not satan and his angels will be restored as well.  THe Christian assumption has always been no, he's gonna suffer eternally.

Yet, UR says all things in creation, so . . . I have to question that assumption. 
.
I've always felt that God created us out of Love.  That the natural impulse of Love is to have an "other" to love and be loved by.  No ulterior motive, just Love.  Man was created as an impulse of Love.

Yet, if the angels were created before us, pure spirits, God HAD that "other" being to fulfill His Love.  Why the necessity for man?

I wonder sometimes if man wasn't created as the means of the redemption of the fallen angels. Still, an act of Love, but connected to God's Love for His other creations as well.

If we draw a parallel between the way in which Christ redeemed us (death, resurrection), then couldn't He have done that in the same way for the fallen angels--without creation of man?

But, if angels are pure spirit, then wouldn't it take a pure spirit's death to redeem them?  If God is pure Spirit, then He cannot die, so the redemption of the fallen angels would be impossible.

However, Christ as man could die for man, while Christ the Divine Spirit lives . . . so no problem.  Create man, knowing he would fall, be redeemed, and then IN Christ, man becomes the means of salvation for the fallen angels through Christ's death for them.

Oddly enough, this makes sense of a couple of things I questioned.

1.  Why would God have allowed satan to tempt Eve to begin with and bring evil into the world?

2.  If, as it's been said, Satan fell because he resented God placing man lower than Himself but above the angels, then it makes sense why God would have created us to be in that place.  Never could figure out why man should be higher than the angels.  But, this would be necessary if redemption of fallen angels is possible.

Also, kind of a catch-22 circular logic, but it works me me, at least for now as an interesting thing to consider.

Might also answer the question you and others raise about why Eve is called the mother of all living . . .

Mary Ellen
Any thoughts on this?

Hi MaryEllen!
I'm only beginning this study....I have so much to learn! Your questions are valid questions, but I don't know the answers.

At this point, after seeing so many sincere witnesses with credible evidence about aliens, I'm inclined to say that I believe people are seeing and/or experiencing something.....but that something could be God answering them according to the idols of their heart, (like Saul who wanted to see a ghost, therefore he saw a ghost)...that something could be demonic beings manifesting as Earth Visitors to bring about a grand delusion on a global scale....or they could be the "other sheep" that Jesus talked about; which I tend to interpret as genuine "other" worldly races.

But the fact remains that scripture says:

Romans 8

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Whatever "they" are....
they seem to be "fascinated" with humans....
"they" also seem to have been here all along....
and I speculate that "they" have been awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God and that is why they are so curious about us!

Does that seem like a fair assessment to you?
Joyce :)

Quote from: joyful1 on June 17, 2008, 12:59:29 AM
Hi MaryEllen!
I'm only beginning this study....I have so much to learn! Your questions are valid questions, but I don't know the answers.

<Smile> Hehehehe, thats good, because I dont have them either when it comes to these subjects, just lots of speculations!

The nice thing about that is we get to explore together.  Always something to be thankful for!

I'm kind of tired this evening, Joyful, so I'm signing off for this evening, but I do want to continue this conversation because (to answer you last question) yes, that did sound like a fair assessment.  And I was intrigued by the thought of aliens awaiting the manifestation of the sons of man.

You are a very interesting person, Joyful1. I like the way your mind works.

Till later, then,
ME 

 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(Revelation 12:7-12 KJV)

Because of what it says in Ephesians, I'd previously taken verse 12 to exclusively be talking about Christians when it would say "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them."  But this is a chapter that starts with imagery that seems easy to make into some type of constellation alignment into the drama that it's describing.  If you can see the depiction of some type of constellation alignment in this chapter, the way that I do -- regardless of whatever it may mean, and whether it's been fulfilled or is yet to be fulfilled, who are these that dwell in the heavens?  Would they include extra-terrestrials in the modern expectation of extra-terrestrials?  And in saying "in the modern expectation," I'm not talking about whether they're little green men, grays, or whatever.  Just intelligent life that's not in what various verses in the Old Testament would call "the heaven of heavens," but spacially and perhaps demensionally closer to where this natural realm would be concerned.

ME--thanks, honey, but after raising 7 kids...I'm just glad its still functioning! Yes...I'm looking forward to getting to hear your  opinion on this! :icon_flower:

Good Point Martin!
If we assume that the "aliens" are angelic in nature....
and IF we assume that there are both good and bad angels in the universe surrounding our physical planet....

then the bad ones could be (or already have been, depending on your understanding of scriptural history) cast down to the earth, causing a lot of problems for mankind. And the good ones could remain to "rejoice in the heavens," seeing as how the outcome is already determined. Being constrained to the immediate space around the earth seems plausible...they seem to materialize and dematerialize in the upper atmosphere and just beyond, but not in deep space. If you are going with "fallen angels" and believe in the place "to the north" of the earth as being there "original estate" then being cast "down" to the space surrounding the earth and the earth itself would make sense. I'm going back into the OT tonight and check that out myself, I could be wrong in that assumption as its been some time since I looked at the whole "fallen angel" scenario.

I tend to believe that the phrase "the heavens," is not a physical place but a spiritual realm. Although, I can certainly believe in a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality, and I can also look at the physical "patterns" that God uses to explain spiritual truths to us. So, I have to say that the above is a valid possibility as far as I can tell at this point.

Doesn't anyone have and extra copy of "Aliens and UFOS For Idiots" ? I need to borrow one!  :laughing7:  

willieH: Hi Mary Ellen... :hithere:

In reading in this thread, you noted a few things which caught my eye... I'd like to comment on them...  :grin:

You asked, "any thoughts"...  :dunno:

Well, ...I mean no personal offense to you in this post,  :boyheart: ...but I DO mean to point out the flaws in your proposals...  :shakepoint:

Quote from: autoimmune on June 16, 2008, 11:35:35 PM
Yet, if the angels were created before us, pure spirits, God HAD that "other" being to fulfill His Love. 

Where does it say ANGELS were CREATED?  And the word BEFORE, suggests TIME, ...not ETERNITY... where "ANGELS" actually dwell...

Quote from: autoimmune on June 16, 2008, 11:35:35 PMWhy the necessity for man?

This is a very good question Mary Ellen...  :yes:

But the answer might not be what you think...  :dontknow:

"Man" is the EARTHY vessel which GOD created that HIS SONS exist IN, while gaining the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

This PROCESS, could not be done in the HOLY environment, rather has occured in the created (LAB / classroom, of) "TIME"...

The SONS of GOD have ALWAYS been... (Job 38:7) they emerged from the ETERNAL, and... after the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil is gained via EXPERIENCE in TIME... RETURN back, to the point or place, they ENTERED time...  which ...IS... ETERNITY...

We cannot "RETURN" to a place we never WERE...  :mshock:

Read the Parable of the Prodigal son in Luke 15... the "prodigal" or foolish son, was WITH the FATHER, ...left, ...then, after a wasted and foolish experience, ...RETURNED... to the place he was ORIGINALLY, ...with the FATHER.

Quote from: autoimmune on June 16, 2008, 11:35:35 PMI wonder sometimes if man wasn't created as the means of the redemption of the fallen angels. Still, an act of Love, but connected to God's Love for His other creations as well.

If we draw a parallel between the way in which Christ redeemed us (death, resurrection), then couldn't He have done that in the same way for the fallen angels--without creation of man?

But, if angels are pure spirit, then wouldn't it take a pure spirit's death to redeem them?  If God is pure Spirit, then He cannot die, so the redemption of the fallen angels would be impossible.

First... Scripture REFUTES your theory...  :punish: In the words of JESUS CHRIST, ...NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD...   :dontknow: (Matt 19:26 / Mk 10:27)

Second... FALLEN ANGELS?  Where is this written Mary Ellen?  :JCThink:

And if ANGELS "fell", what is to keep this from happening AGAIN?  By either ANGELS or SONS?  :prankster:

This type of baseless theological thinking is a SCRIPTURELESS portion of the ORTHODOX lie... and makes GOD nothing more than a "tinkering scientist" that just can't seem to "get it right"  :thumbdown:

Not ALMIGHTY, ...Not OMNISCIENT... Not OMNIPOTENT... just another bumbling being which makes mistakes, and finds things OUTSIDE of His abilities...  :doh: :BangHead: :faint:

Quote from: autoimmune on June 16, 2008, 11:35:35 PM1.  Why would God have allowed satan to tempt Eve to begin with and bring evil into the world?

2.  If, as it's been said, Satan fell because he resented God placing man lower than Himself but above the angels, then it makes sense why God would have created us to be in that place.  Never could figure out why man should be higher than the angels.  But, this would be necessary if redemption of fallen angels is possible.

Where does it SAY that "satan" ...FELL? 

Man is HIGHER than the ANGELS because MEN are the SONS of GOD, which are HIS BODY and HIS TEMPLE... simple!  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi Joyful1!   :icon_flower:

Just wanted to welcome you  :welcome:

And tell you that we are glad you're here at TM...

 :teaching: :Book: :soap:

Could you elaborate a little more, WillieH?  i.e. on your perspective on the UFO thing.

As I've previously been long-winded about: some of it's made up; some of it's the government and other natural phenomenon; and a tiny percentage seems to be just weird and "who knows?" type stuff.  All of our answers are unquestionably in the Word.  Coming to a clear understanding of what the Word would have to say is the only place where I personally wish to have all of my question marks, rather than in going from conspiracy magazine to conspiracy convention to whatever.  I don't believe that God gave us the Word so that we'd keep our question marks about anything, though obviously some of our answers seem to take longer to fully SEE than others 'cause of these and other things honestly being things where we don't know what we're dealing with.  Strong's Concordance seems to run into a blank page on "UFO."  But obviously if God said anything about other living creatures besides those of this world and besides those that surround the throne, then the Biblical language would be a little different.  To God, it obviously wouldn't be Unidentified Flying Objects.  He'd know if they were martians, secret Chinese government experiments, or whatever.  This is my one area of departure from any type of preterism whatsoever, is if it in any way proports that all of the questions that mankind would have ever had or that God would have ever answered in the Book were only the questions leading up to 70AD.

I can accept it if it could ever be conclusively Biblically proven that all God's created are the things that all Christians acknowledge are descriptions of things immediately surrounding the Throne, and mankind within this universe and the animals that surround us.  But the earth seems to be horribly too young to be all that God's ever created besides the creatures that immediately surround His Throne.  The same God that created the rose created the skunk.  That's quite a bit of variety!  I have both personal and Biblical difficulty with believing that that's all that God's created.  Wheels within wheels and flying scrolls seem to be a part of the description of things in Ezekiel chapter one and I can't remember the exact chapter of Zechariah.  One could argue that it's just symbolic stuff, but what do these symbols mean?  Christians have never been able to fully nail it down and some of the Rabbis have allowed for unearthly things to be a part of God's creation with those very passages because of the very belief that God didn't leave us too far in the dark about any area of faith, practice, or the Creation around us.  The Scriptures obviously take us to Jesus Christ, but they also have to take us to a knowledge of His creative work so that we're not just to assume that our great great great great great great great grandparents were monkeys!  If it's all been created for and by Him, but at the same time if it's all been placed under the foot of the New Man, then what all has God created and what all are we leading out of darkness to light through the Gospel and His grace?

willieH: Hi brother M... :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on June 19, 2008, 02:50:21 AM
:teaching: :Book: :soap:

Could you elaborate a little more, WillieH?  i.e. on your perspective on the UFO thing.

One thing is for sure concerning UFO's... some of the incidents are just plain WITHOUT EXPLANATION...

As you said... Most of it can fall into one category or another, hoaxes, scientific technological experiments, natural phenomenons which enact quirks in camera angles, and lighting, etc...

But some, even a FEW, are just plain MYSTERIOUS... and without understanding by finite human beings with our present observational techniques and knowledge...

I was discussing computer technology with a friend who is in touch in the industry... and he said that in the next 5-10 yrs the human brain will be the "hardware"... able to upload or download... WHOA!

What are they (science) messing with????

If a race were even 100 "years" our senior... they might EASILY be capable of MAGICAL abilities (by our present observation)...

As far as WHAT the UFO's actually ARE... wow!  They could be TIME machines rather than SPACE machines... also, they could be from the depths of the OCEANS, about which we have literally NO knowledge...  :dontknow:

I tend to think that if GOD has allowed ANY interaction with beings of a higher intellect that have we... that they are from here on this world somewhere, not out there...

SIN and DEATH, I would think is confined to the earth... but then again, maybe our SINFUL presence in the Universe has tainted the entire Universe...  And maybe beings outside our planet, are part of the end... who knows?

It is quite interesting, the prophetic touch that many "IMAGINED" Sci-Fi stories have shown... in one era sounding too far-fetched, and 20-30 years later, actually coming to pass!

HG Wells wrote many such stories... Jules Verne's stories bore UNCANNY references to "imagined" things which came to pass...

The movie "First men in the Moon" bore unbelieveable correlations to Man's first "moon landing"... the name of the ship, where it took off, where it landed, the amount of time the voyage took, etc... ALL facts which were just "IMAGINED" by Jules Verne...  :dontknow:

When it comes down to it... For no especially BIBLICAL reason, ...I believe the "UFO" thing will have to do with the end of this world somehow...  Guess we'll all just have to "wait n' see"   :laughing7:

Hi Willie,

Funny how you should mention the deep sea possibility for the source of some of these UFOs.  A couple of Doctor Who episodes come to mind from the sci-fi genre.  There has been an unusual prophetic gifting to the whole sci-fi thing.  Not necessarily word for word, though obviously with things set in the future there's still time to "wait and see."  But cell phones and quite a few other things seem to have been anticipated by Star Trek and various other programs.  Time Travel is definitely a possibility.  I've been aware of the occasional historical abberation while I've been growing up for the last thirty-something years.  Something that I thought that I knew winds up being slightly different later.  Not a lot of things, but enough oddities to know that someone's tapped into the stream of time and is riding it like a city bus for educational purposes or the demonic agenda of undoing all that's been thus far done by the Lord.  Besides deep space exploration, time travel seems to be the only other major biggy that real life hasn't "fulfilled" from the sci-fi literature -- unless we're talking about technologies that are still in the hands of the "few," with "prototypes" or whatever.  In the hands of our military, Time Travel may go back to WWII experiments with stealth, but I don't have the details handy on projects that went totally black around that time period.

Not sure if you were talking about quantum computers that may have some cloned brain cells or what you were referring to that's on the horrizon.  Downloading things right into the brain from nanotechnology and other means is also a future probability.  Again, anticipated by the sci-fi world, but now articles of the "possibilities" in leading scientific periodicals.  If God wanted to do something special for me before I turned 50, it would be a Time Machine so that I could continue my studies without "knowing in part" based upon the point of view of historical authors and biographers.  I'd want to study past and future.  Not to come back and win the lottery 'cause when you've got access to both unlimited time and space travel, you're already wealthy beyond imagination if it doesn't take gasoline to run your little machine.  You could be there for the best of the best of everything as you needed it, from the freshest strawberries to what you could fill your pockets with with diamond and gold mines.  Lottery numbers are a bit juvenile when the universe would truly be yours, along with the best pickings from all of the crops everywhere.

You were right that anyone even a century ahead of us could have what we'd consider "magic" by comparison in technological ability 'cause we've been continually hindered by our own wars, plagues, Noah's flood, and countless other catastrophies to where if some other race of creatures simply avoided half of the same kind of nonsense, they could have just about been created alongside of us with days 5 and 6 of Creation -- whether those are eons or 24hr days, since there's evidence for either/or interpretation.

I'm totally convinced that God gave us the genre of sci-fi so that we'd be released to dream without being charged with heresy, black magic, etc. in really developing a thought that our faith could then give substance to -- such as with the cell phones that I observed earlier in this post.  Those have saved countless lives, although we've got turkeys that chat about absolutely anything while driving and fixing their hair and makeup at the exact same time, as they fit in eating from their bag of chips and beating their kids in the back seat of the car.  Though they've saved countless lives 'cause of people being able to dial the emergency numbers right when they saw something happen so that police and other emergency vehicles could come on the scene, yet even a hundred years ago if you'd had one of these cell phones you might have gotten chased out of Church 'cause they'd of thought your little box with numbers was in the same category as a weegee board.  And then to think that someone would speak through it to you!  Oh, you're a medium for sure!!  they'd of thought just a hundred years ago. :laughing7:

Martin and all...hello again!
Just a side note here...
You guys ever notice the wording in the OT about "the sons of God" and then compare to the Greek in the NT "sons of God."

If you were to use them interchangeably you'd end up with us becoming something that we definitely do NOT want to be....right? Or no?

Since we are on this whole alien/ufo/nephilim thingy....I thought I'd just ask...has anyone here got a handle on the translations and usage of "the sons of God"?

Just curious...
Joyce   :icon_flower:

It would be interesting to see how the Septuignt (ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament) would compare with the New Testament Greek on those phrases.  I don't have that information within easy reach today though.  Does anybody reading this thread have [at least] a copy of the Concordant Literal Old Testament where you could give us a sense of how they handle what I'm thinking might be a sloppy KJV handling of the Old Testament phrase "sons of God?"  B'nai Elohim, I think, but that's attempting it from memory on the OT phrase.  I could be totally off on that.  I'm about to head to bed for the next few hours, but I'll try to remember to have a peak at this in Rotherham's Emphasized Bible online when I'm more awake.  www.studylight.org (http://www.studylight.org) if anybody wants to beat me to it while I'm asleep.  I don't remember the particular URL that'll take you straight to the particular translation, but it's at that website.  Young's Literal Translation is also readable from that site.

Thanks Martin! Hope you get some good sleep! To Sleep! ahhh! what a luxury these days!   :bigGrin:

Hi, Joyful.  I have 7 children myself and 18 grandchildren so far, so I know what you're talking about!

Lots added since the last time I posted, so just a few comments in passing to each.  I agree with you about the "sons of God" thing, though I don't have the energy or desire right now to do the research needed to make a scholarly rebuttal.

Hi, Willie. I read what you had to say and will take it all into consideration before God in prayer.  We definitely differ in our interpretation of scripture, primarily on the nature of man in general and Christians specifically. I can tell you why I disagree with you, but I'm not sure that would serve a purpose in a discussion on aliens, which I entered in speculative mode, rather than a scripturally argumentative one.

If you say angels aren't created, then how do you view them?  As you do men, that they are simply extensions of God's uncreated Being-ness?

ME

     

 :icon_flower:
For anyone interested in a good explanation of the above mentioned topics... check out: http://www.spiraloflife.com/conspiracy.html (http://www.spiraloflife.com/conspiracy.html) He puts the OT usage of "sons of God" as fallen angels. Not the same term for the "Sons of God" in the NT. We will be LIKE the angels in some respect, but not angels.


Well....after weeks now of immersing myself in everything "alien and ufo" ....from gov. cover-up, to secret space program, to nephilim, to DNA being altered, cross-breeding of animals and humans, ...sun spots and solar wind...mix in with that my own experience with overcoming sleep paralysis and the similarities with Christians being able to stop alien abduction with the name of Jesus (the name that is above every other name)....I've come to the conclusion (at this point) that aliens are demonic, that nephilim probably are here and connected with a grand delusion for the end-times, but that nothing can separate us from the love of God and that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth.  

I think the archaeological evidence for giants is real, and that the archaeological and textual evidence for aliens (ancient astronauts) was ALL planted here thousands of years ago by demonic entities, nephilim and the like to assist them in pulling off this grand delusion in the last days before Christ's return. Remember that you are dealing with spirit beings that have not died and are intelligent above humans. I think there is valid evidence for the "kings of the earth" being directly influenced by demons and or nephilim in an array of projects that are fruitless to list here.  The end result is the same. The wheat and the tares are being brought to maturity for the harvest.  End of story for me.

I am physically, mentally and spiritually exhausted from this endeavor and plan a long peaceful retreat to the scriptures for the weekend. I wish you all the best....I'll get back with you on Monday, unless, of course I end up being abducted in some "wheel within a wheel!"   :laughing7:

God bless! And thank you for being patient with me and allowing me to discuss these issues with fellow believers!
Joyce :)

Oh yes...hello autoimmune--
was  your question for me or Willie?
Joyce :)

I agree that a lot of what we're exposed to on this planet of so-called aliens is demonic, or that at the very least that the demonic is involved in all of the sensationalism, the fears of cover-ups, and the phobias that are coming out of this for a great many people.  Just like I couldn't reconcile a belief in eternal punishment with the anointing while I'd be trying to teach the Word and would always notice a waning in the anointing when I'd "go there" about eternal Hell, there's something that can be learned from all of this alien hoop-lah from the anointing that's within us. 

Ever noticed that on all, or at least on much of the X-files type of stuff that there's such a dark presence??  A certain degree of that can be the darkness in the hearts of the people offering all of the commentary on this subject when they do the big educational television programs on the history of alien visitations among us and all of that kind of stuff.  But I can't entirely discount a demonic agenda with a lot of the sightings and particularly with the alleged abductions without a lot more info and clarification.

Have a great weekend studying the Word and I'll do the same :cloud9:

Hello Martin!
My weekend ended up being refreshing, but NOT without alien conspiracy and ufos!! I'm reading Enoch.....
oh my!Lol!
anyway....how about you, how was your weekend?
:icon_flower:
Joyce

Quote from: joyful1 on June 23, 2008, 06:18:38 PM
Hello Martin!
My weekend ended up being refreshing, but NOT without alien conspiracy and ufos!! I'm reading Enoch.....
oh my!Lol!
anyway....how about you, how was your weekend?
:icon_flower:
Joyce

Oh, my weekend was pretty good.  It was just a little short.  I got to see Cat Woman for the very first time, with Halle Berry.  It's a better movie than I thought it would be.  I found a copy of the DVD here locally for about $5.  I had an experience with a kitten when I was a little kid that was just strange enough to make me wonder a little bit about cats as I was watching the movie.  Little baby golden kitten never got within 3 feet of me while it hissed at me, but I had a weird animal bite on my hand afterwards that I've still not been able to account for all of those years later.  I don't think that cats necessarily have supernatural powers, but perhaps they're in touch with their guardian angels a little more than a lot of people would think.  Or maybe a momma's love is just a bit more powerful than you might think when it comes to a momma cat that might have been observing from a distance and misinterpreting my intent and either psychically lashed out in some weird way or....I don't know what to think.  I hadn't thought about that more than two or three times in all of those years and this movie made me think of that again.  I can still see myself on my grandmother's porch and there's absolutely no way that I could have cut my hand on something in a way that would have left a bite mark.  One more of those things to mentally backfile with the mental X-files of "one of these days, the Lord will explain that one to me too!"  Halle Berry's a good actress.  I don't think that I've seen very many of her movies.  Not sure what I saw previously that she's done.  I think that every Christian at some point winds up having to read through the book of Enoch a couple of times so that they can make up their own minds about what to think of that book.  I sincerely wish we had an Enoch board here, although I understand why we don't and probably won't.

 Martin--
That was weird, but I believe you may have experienced something supernatural. If I ever get the nerve to, I'll post a similar thing about what happened to me years ago.

About Enoch...
It was one of those things I picked up years ago and intended to finish, but didn't. The book just didn't make any sense to me back then....I gave up. It's a long book!

There are statements that are so bazaar that you can't take them literally....they must have a cryptic meaning.  But I'm not even going to go there, not knowing what I am doing. There are a few statements that seem to contradict other scripture, which leaves me wondering if the critics are right about it....but I have not written it off completely. Something seems to be hidden in there. And it could be very important to our generation. The fact that the entire book was written to and for the elect in the last days, seems to explain, possibly, why it has remained hidden, both physically and spiritually for so many years.

I can understand both the need for a place to discuss it and the potential danger of causing more confusion in the body. Glad I'm not in your shoes!

Remember the cat in Denzel Washington's movie: Fallen?
Joyce :)

I thought I'd posted to this thread a couple of days ago.  Must have had either a computer glitch on my end or a board glitch right when I tried to post to this.

One of the things about the book of Enoch is that people decide too readily that because they didn't know what the book was saying, that therefore it's automatically been corrupted over the centuries.  In other words, because their interpretation is nonsense, therefore the book's relegated to being nonsense rather than there being humility enough to acknowledge that they simply didn't understand what they read or where it fit in with everything else that they understand.  I don't hold the book on the same level as Scripture, but people tend to do the exact same thing with Scripture, that because they don't understand how a certain page of the Bible fits in with "the big picture," therefore the Bible is full of nonsense instead of themselves being the ones that are full of nonsense!  The book of Enoch -- the one thing that's currently "hopelessly" against it is that it simply lacks the manuscript authority that the Biblical texts do.  There's probably not even a dozen ancient Enoch manuscripts that have been recovered yet, and none of them old enough to lend credence to it's antiquity.  It easily looks corrupted, interpolated, etc., in the view of scholars because of it's lack of ancient manuscript support.  We can't say with clarity or any degree of authority that we have the complete book that Origen, Tertullian, Polycarp, Jude, Paul, the authors of the Gospels, etc. would have been citing.  It's attested by the early Church as a most valuable document on par with the Psalms or the wisdom literature of the Bible, like Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, or Hosea, but it's just impossible to know for certain that we have very much of even a 2nd century B.C. document.  Enoch's actually easier to interpret than the book of Revelation, although the book of Enoch seems more like a collection of fragments from ancient writings rather than as one coherent composition.  It has three major parables about the perdition and recovery of the ungodly, the coming of the New Testament, etc.  It's got stuff about Noah.  There's an interesting cosmology that would have made more sense in a preflood context than it would now because of plate tectonics, magnetism and gravitational changes, the spread of the universe from that time period to the present which has been ongoing since the "big bang," etc.  And then it gets into a brief demonology that a lot of Christians aren't comfortable with.  And then there's obscure details about the world that it was written in, or supposedly written in that there's not a lot of elaboration of, such as perhaps more of a Matriarchal society in the preflood world per God's Word to Eve in the Garden that she'd want her husband's place.  How far they took it, again, we're not given specific details of, although it does seem to make the origins of make-up to seem more associated with black magic.  But again, we're not given any real commentary as to whether it's just demonizing make-up in the modern sense, or the reason they were using it and perhaps what they were using back then for make-up.  There are moments that when you're re-reading it, it seems like it's just a collection of sayings, or that at least it's got a collection of sayings that might not be very related to each other.

So, what's your cat experience that you've hinted at?

Enoch has a recurring theme of "total destruction" for the sinners....this can be reconciled as the type of destruction needed to make something "new" again....
but I find it hard to read Enoch completely through without becoming somewhat discouraged.

And the cat thingy....I don't think I remember anything about that anymore. :mblush:

Joyce :)

willieH: Hi Mary Ellen... :hithere:

Quote from: autoimmune on June 21, 2008, 01:40:18 AM
Hi, Willie. I read what you had to say and will take it all into consideration before God in prayer.  We definitely differ in our interpretation of scripture, primarily on the nature of man in general and Christians specifically. I can tell you why I disagree with you, but I'm not sure that would serve a purpose in a discussion on aliens, which I entered in speculative mode, rather than a scripturally argumentative one.

First, ...this is not a discussion about "aliens", although they are in part being discussed here...

Second, ...my post to you did NOT mention "aliens"... it stated that FALLEN ANGELS... one of which was supposedly "satan", ...noted by you, I observe as an invalid proposal, Scripturally...

In this proposal... you noted that GOD "made or created" ANGELIC beings, which at some point in the Heavenly realm, ...OPPOSED Him... and subsequently "FELL" from that realm to THIS ONE...

Sorry sis, ...but there is no verse in Scripture which states this... it is a created philosophy originated in RELIGION... and UNFOUNDED in the available WORD of GOD...

My post challenged you to note IN SCRIPTURE where, ANGELS were created, and... where IN SCRIPTURE, it is noted that they FELL...  :dontknow:

Quote from: autoimmune on June 21, 2008, 01:40:18 AMIf you say angels aren't created, then how do you view them?  As you do men, that they are simply extensions of God's uncreated Being-ness?

ME

I do NOT view MEN as extensions of God's "uncreated Beingness"... MEN are CREATED... SONS are ETERNAL...

SONS which are ETERNAL, are (one by one) born IN TIME, ...MEN in a NATURAL state of FLESH... for the purpose of the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

Let me give you an illustrative example:

***************************************************************

(1) Let us say we ALWAYS ARE with GOD, and in this state, we ARE DRY...  ALWAYS dry... and in this state we are COMFORTABLE, and CONTENT.

(2) GOD (because He KNOWS there is an opposite to DRY which WE do NOT KNOW) creates a POOL of water... in which WETNESS can become KNOWN ...BY... EXPERIENCE... 

(3) We each in turn are put into "bathing suits" (flesh) and subsequently "dipped" into the pool and THROUGH the EXPERIENCE of "getting WET", come to KNOW "WETNESS".   

(4)  Upon the completion of this process, we return to the DRY and CONTENT  state in which we ALWAYS ARE with God... but NOW with the KNOWLEDGE of what it is to be WET, which exalts the state of COMFORTABLE and CONTENTED, DRYNESS we ALWAYS ARE...

***************************************************************

Angels ARE of the ETERNAL, not the finite state that MEN are within TIME...

SONS of GOD are also ETERNAL, and which are presently, in a "TEMPORAL classroom" called "time"... to gain the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

MEN (natural vessels) are created (in TIME)... ANGELS and SONS, are not... they ALWAYS ARE in the ETERNAL, as IS YHVH God...

GOD does NOT CHANGE(Mal 3:6), neither does His WORD (Heb 13:8) Mary Ellen...   :cloud9:

So, if CHRIST -- GOD's WORD, has a "BODY" (which He DOES - 1 Cor 12:27 / Eph 5:30)...

And GOD has a "TEMPLE" in which HE DWELLS (which He DOES - 1 Cor 3:17 / 2 Cor 6:16)... THEN these two elements are ETERNAL in their essence... which in Scripture are noted as SONS...   :dontknow:

SONS of GOD are the TEMPLE of YHVH... as well as HIS "BODY"... in which DWELLS His WORD...

GOD does not "become" anything, for "becoming" presents a condition of CHANGE...

When something BECOMES something else... it has CHANGED from what it WAS...  If I BECOME WET, ...I am no longer DRY... If I BECOME OLD, ...I am no longer YOUNG...  If I BECOME TALL, ...I am no longer SHORT, etc...

Therefore, His BODY is ETERNALLY unchanged, and His TEMPLE is ETERNALLY unchanged, ...in both of these are the components found to be His SONS...

That GOD has given us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... WE have BECOME as is HE... and He therefore PERMEATES us TOTALLY... ALL [of Him] in ALL [of us]...

...hope that helps...  :cloud9:

Hi Willie!
I'm new here.....your comments are very interesting! I'd like to ask you 2 things:

1) what about the verses that say;

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15-16
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Does this figure into the equation that you just laid out? And if so, how?

#2-- Are you saying that the Sons of God have always existed, but that MEN were created? Are you saying that after the Sons of God, for example, "experience being wet" that they return to God in a new more "knowledgable state", but MEN come and are and then perish? I can't quite follow you here....??

Thanks in advance!
Joyce :)
P.S. I apologize for this "welcome" thread becoming an entire book here...I'll start new threads for both of these subjects if anyone would like to continue the subjects at hand....if that is okay.

Quote from: willieH on June 30, 2008, 02:22:47 AM
In this proposal... you noted that GOD "made or created" ANGELIC beings, which at some point in the Heavenly realm, ...OPPOSED Him... and subsequently "FELL" from that realm to THIS ONE...

Sorry sis, ...but there is no verse in Scripture which states this... it is a created philosophy originated in RELIGION... and UNFOUNDED in the available WORD of GOD...

My post challenged you to note IN SCRIPTURE where, ANGELS were created, and... where IN SCRIPTURE, it is noted that they FELL...  :dontknow:

There's a lot of stuff like this that's surprisingly missing in Scripture that we've heard for years and just assumed that in the abundance of preachers saying it, that there was Scriptural support for it.  I used to be so sure that I could take someone to the precise Scriptures that mentioned this and a lot of other things, that nowadays "whatever" the classic "proof texts" cited for these things mean, it winds up being a stretch for me to try to take them "there."  There's a lot of stuff in a lot of modern preaching that if it's not coming out of the book of Enoch, then it must be coming from Milton's "Paradise Lost" or other classics of Christian literature that aren't necessarily Biblically based or that minimally weren't meaning to be a theological treatise when they were written, but allegory for other areas of life.  On a lot of stuff like this, I just have to currently say "I don't know" and it's not a disgrace for anybody to have to say that about any subject.  Particularly when the "proof texts" of a lot of these things clarify themselves to us as being problematic, and usually not even talking about what we were trying to turn them into proofs of.

Quote from: joyful1 on June 30, 2008, 10:26:35 AM
I apologize for this "welcome" thread becoming an entire book here...I'll start new threads for both of these subjects if anyone would like to continue the subjects at hand....if that is okay.

No appologies necessary.  Start all of the threads that you want.  The subjects of Enoch and aliens seem to be coming to a conclusion.  It'll be interesting to see if this goes anywhere on the subject of angels.

Quote from: martincisneros on June 12, 2008, 12:19:42 AM
There's a lot of things that really don't make the least bit of sense to me about the first 11 chapters of Genesis, if we're to assume that they're in chronological order and if we're to assume that the Flood was global rather than just world-wide.  Some people are sooooo dogmatic about it having been a global flood, based upon what God said to Noah after the flood.  However, allowing that for a minute: what do we do with so and so who is the father of those who work with metal; so and so who is the father of musicians; so and so who is the father of those who live in tents, et. al.?

Actually we have to be careful about where we look at in science in this regaurd.  The lines within the scientific realm can get very muddy.

For instance,  one argument about a global flood will say that there is no way there could be enough water to cover the highest mountains.  Within the same realm someone who shows that there are seashells in mountainous areas will quickly be ridiculed for not understanding upliftment.


The real issue is what exactly did the earth look like before the "fountains of the great deep" became oceans and rivers on the surface of the earth?

There is no conclusive data that says exactly how the earth formed in such a way to susatin life.    There is theories that do not defy the "known" laws of physics, but within those theories are problems of formation that have not been conclusively solved yet.

Those theories mainly show how a ball of iron and rock might be formed in space, but they have not really even touched the surface of how all the details of the planet could sustain life without running head on in to something that defies those same laws.

Here is a very interesting online book, especially the section for Walt Browns Hydroplate theory.

I realize that Walts theories are not at this time accepted within the mainstream (secular) scientific community.   But as I have read this, Walt brown is very detailed with scientific calulations which I believe give it some reasonable credibility in general.

With that said,  the rebuttles to Walt Browns theories are all fallacies and hypocrisy. They make an assumption that current mainstream scientific theories of planet formation are undeniably correct and apply that assumption to  Walt's Theories.


Walt's theories do not have to explain the formation of the planet any more than evolutionary theory has to.  Evolutionists all the time eagerly point out that evolutionary theory does not explain non life to life and does not need to.  They boldly admit that if indeed God did create life, evolution explains what happened from that point forward.

So what is good for the goose.   Walt brown theorizes what happened after the earths formation through predictions and conclusion just like the scientific method demands.

Walt brown does not need to explain how the earth formed for his theory to be plausible.

Here is the link

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

As I always say when I post a link which I do not do too often,   I do not necessarily agree with everything Walt Brown or creationscience.com stands for or believes, but there are quite a few things that are reasonable in his book.

IMO, Carl Baugh's creation model answers the most important questions that I've had about the physical earth, but can't quite overcome some of the more recent data about aging that "seems" to be true.

Ray Smith is dedicating a special conference this fall on this very subject.  He says Orthodoxy & Evolutionists are both wrong on Genesis. I like very much, his (Smith's) approach in comparing spiritual with spiritual, verses with verses, to find answers. I'm looking forward to seeing his material in September! http://bible-truths.com/ (http://bible-truths.com/)

Sincerely,
Joyce :)

 :icon_flower: oh yes! For those of you that want to continue the whole "Origins, Angels and Aliens" discussion that we've started here....I'll start a thread right now in the Chrisitan Life--general discussion area with that name. Hope that is okay with you Martin. You can move this whole thing or delete my new thread if you feel that some other title or place is more appropriate.

Again...thanks for the warm welcome and thanks for the chance to discuss these things with other believers!
Joyce  :)

Quote from: joyful1 on July 01, 2008, 06:17:22 AM
IMO, Carl Baugh's creation model answers the most important questions that I've had about the physical earth, but can't quite overcome some of the more recent data about aging that "seems" to be true.

If he weren't a dogmatist about 6,000 years for the Creation model, I'd be his absolute biggest cheerleader for a halfway decently thought out, plausible Creation model that's got some solid research behind it.  I could even go with his keeping it within the thousands of years if he'd give it say, 600,000 years or so for the "big bang," or "big Word" as he prefers to call it.  6,000 years is just hard when you consider that there's been nearly that much continuous Chinese history.  If he didn't "global flood" to where maybe the Chinese were never effected by the flood, then maybe he could narrowly squeeze everything in to 6,000 years.  I can follow the logic on assigned ages, and the carbon-14 dating has already proven to self parody itself with all of the conflicting data that it was giving the Shroud of Turin with the facts of the garment that relate to it's traceable stitching and other issues that are unquestionably 1st century Palestine.  Fossils that extend through several layers of the billions of years of assigned ages with the different levels of the earth's crust is also not sufficiently accounted for by long age creationists and evolutionists.  And it's not one or two fossils.  A couple of his "dinosaur and man" footprints have been proven to be questionable and problematic to his claims, but his dozens of others haven't been, particularly the sandle print with a trilobyte in the heel is a mess for evolutionists.  And there's not an evolutionary "proof" that doesn't have it's own areas of being questionable and problematic.  Speed of light is easily resolveable -- not through time dilation, but superstring theory and quantum gravity offer more solid "problems" for the age of the universe.  6,000 years would just have to mean that we never lost a single page of recorded history -- which is extremely problematic for many different scholars of many different fields.  6,000 years, as a minimum, is proveable and you do tend to extrapolate to the longer ages for everything based upon our current understanding of the physical laws of the universe.  Light, gravity, particle physics, entropy, molecular biology, geophysics, geochemistry, and various other things point to a bit longer for the big picture.  At least in the way that I understand things.  If Israel got on His last nerves several times, I don't see Him waiting just under 12 billions years before life started appearing on the earth if we're all the product of more love than any of us have ever experienced yet.  He's more patient than some of us will ever be, but on other levels, His patience seems problematic with waiting that long to start creating life after the "big bang" or the "big Word."  But 6,000 years??  Give me some space between events, Dr. Baugh, golly!!

willieH: Hi Joyful1!  :hithere:

These are very good questions Joyful!  I commend you for asking them, and find they have prompted me examine my beliefs... thanks...  :thumbsup:

After that examination, and via prayer, God has given me this to say:

I don't have all the answers, but am like yourself, searching that GOD shall place the pieces of my beliefs, in Holy order...  :cloud9:

Here is my best effort to answer to your questions...  :grin:

Quote from: joyful1 on June 30, 2008, 10:26:35 AM
Hi Willie!
I'm new here.....your comments are very interesting! I'd like to ask you 2 things:

1) what about the verses that say;

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Guess I could ask you of your take of this verse Joyful, ...but here is my observation of it:

The "ALL THINGS" which are become NEW are the "ALL THINGS" which are now affected by the knowledge of Good and Evil... and ARE ETERNAL.

That KNOWLEDGE is an ETERNAL perspective... which was the INTENTION of YHVH...  That His Children gain...

Obviously "ALL THINGS" in the NATURAL are not NEW... My body did not regenerate at the moment I became a believer in JESUS...  My eyesight is still diminishing,  :Mcry: my hearing is not new...  :sigh: ...etc.

Also, I am still in a battle against my flesh (as was PAUL - Rom 7) which is NOT over, and is NOT NEW, and... remains in the realm of the NATURAL...

All the "OLD THINGS" as far as the NATURAL is concerned, are STILL HERE... and are STILL decaying and in their order, failing their way to the GRAVE... which is the rightful destination of the FLESH and the NATURAL.

When one becomes IN CHRIST, ...one is entered into the ETERNAL perspective... which means that IN ETERNITY,  the "old" IS passed away, and IN ETERNITY the NEW IS become ALL THINGS...

The word "creature" in this verse (2 Cor 5:17) primarily means FORMATION... One by one, the SONS of GOD...

(1) RE-enter the SPIRITUAL realm which is IN CHRIST...

(2) Having gained the knowledge of Good and Evil which is the FORMATION of something IN us that was not there before this TIME/finite experience...

ALL which have gained the perspective that the COMPLETE ETERNAL state encases, ...are NOW able to see the "ALL THINGS",  through a NEW and SPIRITUAL lens which GOD has named, "the knowledge of Good and Evil"... That knowledge serves to GLORIFY our Father ETERNALLY...

Until one KNOWS what GOOD ...IS... "GOOD" ...IS... an UNKNOWN...

Prior to this TIME realm... only YHVH and His WORD, had this knowledge... (Gen 3:22)

In other words, the ETERNAL state in the Children of GOD, was lacking ONE THING... and that is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...and IN that ONE WAY... we were NOT As IS YHVH ...and, His WORD... (hope you're still with me!  :mblush:)

QuoteGalatians 6:15-16
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The same explanation applies to these verses Joyful... In CHRIST is the COMPLETION of the SONS of GOD...  For IN and VIA His Word is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL gained... a portion of GOD, which was lacking in the Children in ETERNITY, before this TIME experience...

Let me give an example (albeit a bumbling one  :mblush:): 

A child is a human being (man)... but in his/her innocence, the child is UNAWARE of what is GOOD, and what is EVIL... this is a KNOWLEDGE that comes eventually, with EXPERIENCE...  IN TIME...

However, ...even though the child does not yet have this KNOWLEDGE, it is STILL a human being, and it is STILL a child (SON), ...yet it is lacking by comparison to its PARENT, the knowledge of these two things...

When the child GAINS this knowledge, it is become AS IS the PARENT... and in that experience, ALL THINGS it viewed from INNOCENCE, now gain a NEW PERSPECTIVE...

QuoteJohn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Does this figure into the equation that you just laid out? And if so, how?

We become COMPLETE when the SPIRITUAL is found in us WITH the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... for then are we AS IS our Father... the POWER to become SONS of GOD, is that He is NOW COMPLETE in us... which in the ETERNAL, NOW includes ALL facets of Himself...

YHVH IS ALL in ALL... ONLY when we have been permeated to the COMPLETE degree of Himself, which includes the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil...  (Gen 3:22)

(Rom 9:22-25) YHVH endures with LONGSUFFERING, the process of DISHONOR which is the portion of each LUMP (son), in the FLESHLY realm of TIME... that He permeates us through this process, and REVEALS His SONS in GLORY... which also KNOW as does HE... Good and Evil...  :dontknow:

BY this experience in time, ALL THINGS have been affected, to include WHO YHVH IS, and the degree HE IS in us... HE has not changed... but WE HAVE...

Again from ETERNAL perspective... We are ETERNALLY and completely HIM and HE, us...  No part of us is "NOW", not HIM, and no part of HIM is not US...  Hard to put into words... but HE has, via the use of the TOOL of TIME, made His SONS complete IN HIM... in the ETERNAL.

Quote#2-- Are you saying that the Sons of God have always existed, but that MEN were created? Are you saying that after the Sons of God, for example, "experience being wet" that they return to God in a new more "knowledgable state", but MEN come and are and then perish? I can't quite follow you here....??

MEN are composed of FLESH, and SPIRIT...  SONS of GOD are SPIRIT only...  That is why CHRIST noted that He was not to be "touched" until He had ASCENDED to the Father... THEN, once the RISING was COMPLETE... nothing could offend Him...

MEN are each appointed to DIE... and they ride that FLESH, in TIME, back to the DUST from which it came...

MEN are EARTHY beings (1 Cor 15:47), and must (1) DIE and, (2) be BORN AGAIN, or REBORN, as SPIRIT beings, (1 Cor 15:44) ...into the ETERNAL...

SONS are appointed to LIVE... Returning to where they emerged... ETERNITY

See the parable of the LOST SON (Luke 15)... He was WITH the Father, LEFT... and eventually RETURNED... One cannot "return" to a place or state in which he has never been...  :dontknow:

This is hard stuff to put into words, hope it has not sounded too confusing to you...

Know that it is not my agenda to convince you or anyone else of anything... you are welcome to jettison this information into the garbage if you like, it doesnt matter to me...

I appreciate your questions, hope I have answered them sufficiently.  :cloud9:

Quote from: martincisneros on July 01, 2008, 07:15:29 AM
If he weren't a dogmatist about 6,000 years for the Creation model, I'd be his absolute biggest cheerleader for a halfway decently thought out, plausible Creation model that's got some solid research behind it.

Well....that's what I am looking at myself, Martin, I'm open to correction and eager and hungry for the truth.  However....
I keep thinking this thought:
If God is able to create AT ALL (because this is a magnificent act!) then He should be able to choose the TIME FRAME in which He would want to do it. If God can create at all, He can create instantly or over time. Period.

Why did we have huge landing pads on the first lunar module?
There's your answer. The best scientific team of NASA could not predict the scant (*in most places less than an inch thick) amount of dust on the moon. They thought the moon, like the earth, had been there for billions of years, and without living organisms on its surface, had simply collected tons of galactic dust particles over those billions of years. They fully expected to land on several FEET of moon dust and prepared to deal with that by giving the lunar lander huge landing pads.  These would, supposedly, maintain some stability for the craft atop this huge pile of dust.

My point is this: these were our best and brightest scientists following a flawed theory of evolution. They proved their intelligence with the rockets. These men and women were very intelligent. But they couldn't believe that the moon was anything less than billions of years old.

I'm sure that this is old hat to you, Martin. But, like you, I try to make sense of everything around me.

Joyce :)

Hi Willie! :D
Thank you for being so patient, Willie...I'm a slow old dinnosaur.
Your answer leaves me feeling somewhat confused.....
Maybe we could take it a slower warp speed?
Exactly who ARE the Sons of God? In your opinion.
Joyce :)

willieH: Hi Joyce... :hithere:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 02, 2008, 10:46:10 PM
Hi Willie! :D
Thank you for being so patient, Willie...I'm a slow old dinnosaur.
Your answer leaves me feeling somewhat confused.....
Maybe we could take it a slower warp speed?
Exactly who ARE the Sons of God? In your opinion.
Joyce :)

Try this sis...

First... in order to understand "WHO" the Sons of GOD, ...ARE... you must eliminate your vision of this in the NATURAL...

Because, ..."WHO" the Sons of GOD, ...ARE... is a SPIRITUAL concept...

That said...

The ETERNAL spirit which IS each of us, and PART of YHVH: ...His (Son's) BODY, and His TEMPLE... is "WHO" the SONS of GOD ...ARE... (US - not in the NATURAL -- fleshly/TIME realm, but in the SPIRIT -- Spiritual/ETERNAL realm)

No portion of YHVH has known a beginning, nor has an end...

Scripture notes US as the TEMPLE of YHVH (1 Cor 6:19), ...and as the BODY of CHRIST (1 Cor 12:27)...

(Mal 3:6) YHVH does NOT CHANGE... (Heb 13:8) Neither does CHRIST, ...so what HE IS... HE ...IS... and HE ...IS... ALL in ALL (from ETERNAL, not TIME, perspective)

We ...ARE... His TEMPLE... we ...ARE... the body of His Son... In which HE ..."IS"... ALL in ALL...  :cloud9:  (1 Cor 12:6)

Our fleshly/NATURAL existence is but a REFLECTION of what actually ...IS... in the ETERNAL realm...

In the ETERNAL realm, we ARE the BODY of CHRIST, which IS the TEMPLE of the Father...

Anything which is ETERNAL, has no BEGINNING as well as NO END...  ALL that IS in the ETERNAL realm, ...ALWAYS IS within the ETERNAL realm...

There is no "WAS" or "WILL BE" in ETERNITY... there is only NOW.

Is this getting any clearer (I hope! :mblush:)?   :JCThink:

As I said... it is somewhat hard to convey with words...  :mblush:

A solid and prayerful look at 1 Cor 12 will help you in understanding what I am endeavoring to convey...  :cloud9:

 :coffee2: Okay....I'm going over I Cor 12 and I think I see what you are trying to say....

we are the body
period

if we are the body (which we are)
then the Spirit of God dwells in us;

if the Spirit of God dwells in "us" collectively and individually
then we are also the temple of God (which we are)

if the above statements are true....then we must be the sons of God

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Did I understand you correctly?  :mshock:
Joyce :)

willieH: Hi Joyce... :hithere:

:heat:  I have done the best I can in trying to explain to you, my views... and here's an admission which, because you are new here, that you might not have seen before:

I do not know everything, and make no such claim... I do stand upon what I know at present, and continue my search...;  :happygrin:

I believe it is time, if you differ with my views (which appears to be so) to note your own...  :dontknow:  You may have beneficial information which shall help me along the way, or at least set me on the pathway of correction if necessary...  :cloud9:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 03, 2008, 06:15:34 PM
:coffee2: Okay....I'm going over I Cor 12 and I think I see what you are trying to say....

we are the body
period

if we are the body (which we are)
then the Spirit of God dwells in us;

if the Spirit of God dwells in "us" collectively and individually
then we are also the temple of God (which we are)

if the above statements are true....then we must be the sons of God

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Did I understand you correctly?  :mshock:
Joyce :)

Thank you for quoting that Scripture, for it makes my point!  :bgdance:

NOW ARE WE the SONS of GOD.. and ...it doth NOT YET APPEAR, what we shall BE: but we know that, when HE shall appear, we shall BE LIKE Him; for we shall see Him ...AS HE ...IS...    Did you get that?  see Him AS, HE, ...IS...  AS He IS, ...we ARE...

But these things DO NOT YET APPEAR (as they ARE ETERNALLY)... for GOD is LONGSUFFERING the VESSELS of DESTRUCTION, which also, ...WE ARE... temporarily...   :laughing7:

JESUS shall not "appear" as a MAN, ...been there, done that... He shall "appear" as HE IS... the SON of GOD... no longer the SON of MAN... and we shall BE (to "be" is a "NOW thing") as He ...IS... His Body REVEALED, which KNOWS Good and Evil... but IS only GOOD...

(1)  The vessels of HONOR... IS the SONS of GOD, which we ARE, and which is ETERNAL... Unchanging but in the process of REVELATION... (in other words, our ETERNAL state has not changed, it IS gained REVELATION of what has ALWAYS been) (Rom 9:23 / 16:25)  In NATURAL observation we see change... but the truth is that what has ALWAYS BEEN, is being REVEALED.

(2)  The vessels of DISHONOR is also that which we also ARE, ...are TEMPORAL ,and destined for DESTRUCTION... (Gen 3:19 / 1 Cor 15:50 / Rom 9:22)

The portion of US which is the BODY of CHRIST is SPIRIT, and which is the investment of YHVH in us that gives us life in the NATURAL...  It is the breath of LIFE which is YHVH, that animates (to life) the inanimate (the NATURAL MAN which is lifeless without it).

The portion of US which is the TEMPLE of GOD is our SPIRIT, and this portion which is of YHVH and CHRIST is UNCHANGING, otherwise, Mal 3:6 and Heb 13:8 and James 1:17 are all false, for they note that there is an UNCHANGING state in YHVH and CHRIST...

The portion of US which gains (by REVELATION - then experience) the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, is done in the vessel of DISHONOR, but remains NOW and THEREBY revealed in the VESSEL of HONOR, ...GOD being therefore ALL in ALL... He did not change, however He is found REVEALING JESUS CHRIST IN US, ...and in JESUS CHRIST is found the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL...

For ALL THINGS find their ALPHA and OMEGA, ...IN CHRIST... they are BY Him and FOR Him... (Col 1:16-20)

Okay Joyce... That's my  :2c:   :declare:

What is YOUR TAKE?  :JCThink:

 :sigh: good grief, charlie brown.....
I came here looking for answers about aliens and ufos! This is plainly stated in my very first post here. In my quest, the term "sons of God" figures prominently. You made a statement about the "sons of God" so I followed up with a question to make sure that I understood where you were coming from. That's all.

I've read and thought about the statements that you've made. We're on the same page. I have nothing to add to it. I'm a student, not a teacher.

It would probably be a waste of your time, but if you really wanted to, you could read everything that I've posted for about 2 years over at BT. I've already stated that you can easily find me over there, since I go by the same name. Just don't laugh too hard at my family photo!  :laughing7:

Now...sir, do you take vanilla or coconut flavouring in your coffee?  :coffee2:

willieH: Hi sister J... :hithere:

:Peace:

Actually, whether you intended so or not... your posts have prompted a deeper look into my observation of "SONS" and "MEN"... and the relationship between these two "states", and how both of these positions we occupy, pertain to GOD as well...  :JCThink:

I am very grateful to you for that!  :ty: :Urock:

Quote from: joyful1 on July 04, 2008, 07:35:29 PM
:sigh: good grief, charlie brown.....
I came here looking for answers about aliens and ufos! This is plainly stated in my very first post here. In my quest, the term "sons of God" figures prominently. You made a statement about the "sons of God" so I followed up with a question to make sure that I understood where you were coming from. That's all.

First, ...my name isn't Charlie brown...  :pointlaugh:

Second, ...Sorry sister Joyce, I didn't mean any offense to you... I am sincerely curious about your views of the issue!  :friendstu:

QuoteI've read and thought about the statements that you've made. We're on the same page. I have nothing to add to it. I'm a student, not a teacher.

That's cool... I am a student too, which is why I asked what your observation might be!  :boyheart:

QuoteIt would probably be a waste of your time, but if you really wanted to, you could read everything that I've posted for about 2 years over at BT. I've already stated that you can easily find me over there, since I go by the same name. Just don't laugh too hard at my family photo!  :laughing7:

I too am a member over at BT... and a reader of L. Ray Smith, whom I highly respect.  However, I find that BT as a forum is a bit too tied into his writings, and will not accept posts which object (in any way) to Ray's findings...  :dontknow:

Funny enough, I don't believe Ray is that closed in... I have communicated with him on several occasions, and IMO, he remains a student (as he should), as he continues to seek further revelation from God...  :happyclap:

QuoteNow...sir, do you take vanilla or coconut flavouring in your coffee?  :coffee2[/color]

Wow!  :myahoo:  Sounds delicious!  I love those flavorings!  :coffee:

Again sis... :blush:  didn't mean to sound harsh or offensive to-ya!   :Mcry: :mfriends:

 :boogie: Yippie! back on track! This is great, Willie!
I posted a reply last night...it said that it went through...but its not here today? weird!
Anyway....in my reply I noted that YOUR posts have also spurred me on to search more on the subject of MAN and Sons of God as well...

I thought of trying to put your comments into a picture for me to think about. I don't know why, but "a picture paints a thousand words" for me....so I often find making a story or an idea into a picture in my mind helps me to remember it better....I don't know if that makes sense to you or not...but here is the picture that came to mind for me when I thought about your comments concerning how we are BOTH men/beasts/pottery destined for destruction AND the sons of God at the same time:

Gideon's army! Do you remember the story? In Judges 7 God first thinned out the group from 32,000 to 10,000, to 300. Then He told
Gideon and a servant to sneak down to the camp to overhear the telling of a dream. The dream (of one of the Hittites) was about a round loaf of "barley bread" coming into the camp and destroying it....I wonder what the "barely bread" represents? Anyway....they went back and equipped their men with a trumpet in one hand and an empty CLAY JAR in the other...they put burning torches INSIDE the CLAY JARS and went back to the enemy's camp....Gideon told the men to "follow my lead and do exactly as I do" (*like Paul saying; be ye imitators of me!) and then at the right moment, the trumpets were blown and at the same time the men smashed their CLAY JARS and the torches suddenly lit up the camp! The Hittites were in confusion, first crying out and running away and later turning their swords on each other. The victory was won without literal swords! A couple of notes: God told the men that he would save the entire army of 32,000 with the aid of only 300 of them....also, the trumpet blast heralded the smashing of the jars, and the torches astonished the enemy....the light of EACH MAN'S TORCH was UNSEEN until the exact same moment when they took the land on that side of the Jordan River.

Do you see it? What do you think the round "barely bread" represented? Also, the men were told to shout: "A sword for the Lord and for Gideon!" ...what do you think that means? I mean, if you were seeking the spiritual application here? Do other verses elsewhere in the Bible come to mind?

Joyce :)

Willie?  :lazy: wake up! Willy!

Quote from: joyful1 on August 12, 2008, 06:38:28 PM
Willie?  :lazy: wake up! Willy!

:beerburp: sat what?  :Party:

Quote from: willieH on August 14, 2008, 06:27:43 AM

:beerburp: sat what?  :Party:

Willie!!
I was asking you about barley bread!
oh bother!  :sigh:
At least stay on base this time.....drunk willies are 76% more likely to be abducted by aliens if they wander off base. That's probably why you come up with the weirdest conclusions on this forum! You've been abducted too many times! Too bad you don't think "normally" like me! :laughing7: