Wages of sin...

[sparrow]

I'm following you, captamajora. I've had these same thoughts, myself actually, but you worded it a little better than I could have.

Had Jesus come to sacrifice himself to be the "once and for all" atonement for the sins of the world and future generations and to show us a way?  Animal sacrifices were meant to SHOW us something.... about Love and sin and evil. Sin is absence of love. Sin is death. The animal sacrifices make sense, sin is death. God was showing us something. 

But now, we are moving through history -HIS STORY- and it was now time to do away with the "simple, shallow" animal sacrificial system. To do away with the old animal sacrifices, because it was now time to MOVE ON and wade out into the deeper waters of what LOVE is? He was showing us what sin was and now was time to show us what Love is. Now, Jesus came to show us something, LOVE. They never did see those animals come back to life, no... they remained dead (as far as they could tell.) But Jesus was resurrected. Was God showing us a different way? Was God showing us the power of Love? That sin is dead.... sin is futile. But Love is the most powerful thing?
God IS Love.

well, just thinking out loud here...
Captamajora, what you've said has made absolute sense.
How could Jesus have been a "substitute"....?
I think He came to show us a WAY...
After all this is HIS story..and isn't He just trying to teach us?
Well, like I said..just thinking out loud here.

peace,
sparrow

p.s. and then every once in awhile, I think to myself... were they supposed to be sacrificing those animals? Or did God think "you boneheads, stop sacrificing my little animals that I created, to try and "atone" for your sins!" HERE, I will come and be the ULTIMATE, atoning sacrifice. Now stop sacrificing those animals and MOVE ON to what you are really supposed to be learning here!!"
:dontknow: Of course, it all makes sense... (the animal sacrificial system put in place to show us something.) But there was a time for it, and the time for that was up and Jesus came.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=captamajora link

If you are constantly battling sin and trying desparately to overcome it, then you are a slave to sin.

Quote.



Well I certainly disagree with this. Such confidence in Christ is beyond me. In Relationships, its good to have confidence, but when your confidence deletes your part in the relationship, then your " Taking" it for granted. I know my woman Loves me and would do anything for me, shes just a good woman. But if I develop such a smug aittitude or approach toward our relationship, that I now think, because she Loves me so much, that I no longer find the need to work on the things that are in me that irritate her, then my expression of Love toward her is selfish. I am so confident of her Love for me, that it renders me more selfish as to the things I must do to express my Love toward her. One of the finest expressions of Love in a relationship, is for you to move away from the things that irritate your mate.

I don't think our Relationship with God should be treated any differently. The desire to please God is best expressed by you actively moving away from the things that irritate God. Which defines Overcomming, you are actively expressing your Love toward him by your active participation in dealing with the " Ugly things" that you are actively doing. Now if some have reached some kind of " Laid back Spiritual approach" toward sin, which suggest that we need not actively participate in the battle with sin, then I view that as confident selfishness. Such an aittitude suggest to me that Jesus was beaten to death, so that we may enjoy our lives and take no concern about our personal sinful behavior.

I agree with a constant focus on your sin, and then do something about it. Do what you can, bit by bit, inspite of what Christ has done. Doing this " Qualifys and Identifys" your own personal characther and approach toward a relationship with God. What ever you " Do" adds to your characther, because your salvation is already a done deal. You have something to do with your characther in a relationship with even God. It will be to your credit that your mindset and personality are complettely involved in what you believe in.

And don't get me wrong, it matters not to me what you think about this, my behavior is dependant on me and God, and I want God to know that I want something to do with this. I want to be involved, because I believe. I like the battle with sin, I live to Overcome it as much as I can. And I know God is involved in it. It does not matter to me how much God will help me, I am going to fight it, and he knows this. Thats just how it is with me. I don't like what sin has done to me, if I didnot know anything about God, I would still fight sin. Comming to know God a little more has not changed that desire in me. I have not reached some quasi Spiritual stage that offers to me some kind of rest from the fight, and hold no quarrell with those who have. Overcomming sin is still something I must do, and I am glad that others have reached a stage that they no longer have to struggle with sin. I have not gotten to that point in my life.

Peace.

[sparrow]

You can also be a slave to sin by constantly focusing on sin and battling it. If you are constantly preoccupied with "overcoming" sin, then you are a slave to sin.  You are a slave to the concept of sin.  You are a slave to battling sin.  You are supposed to be dead to sin.  Sin should be of no consequence to you anymore because you know the truth- that nothing you do can separate you from God or make him love and accept you any more or any less. This doesn't give you license to sin, as God never condones sin, but it allows you to REST from worry over sin.  You now don't have to concern yourself with sin.  When you don't concern yourself with sin, you are dead to sin. If you are constantly battling sin and trying desparately to overcome it, then you are a slave to sin.

I wholeheartedly agree. And just my :2c: for what it's worth: Being a slave to sin is a huge time-waster, it's selfish (it puts all of your focus on yourself), and you are keeping yourself stuck in the muck. "Go and sin no more".  He didn't say "and if you do, keep looking at that sin with a microscope and examine it and re-examine it and struggle and sweat and toil..." GO AND SIN NO MORE. Being a slave to sin means you are incessantly focused on it. Let love rule in your life.... and when you stumble, do not let it destroy you, destroy your mind, your heart... GO.AND.SIN.NO.MORE.
stop wasting time. Let LOVE become the power in your life.
Love is the most powerful thing in the universe... Sin is nothing. Sin is DEAD. Stop picking it up and waving it around like it is some powerful force. It is not. It is dead. lifeless.
Focus on LIFE.
Focus on LOVE.
and stop wasting time.

[captamajora]

Well I certainly disagree with this. Such confidence in Christ is beyond me.

Well I am sorry that you don't have such confidence in Christ. You tell me this as though it is a detriment... Anyways, I fear you've missed my point. I am not encouraging a "lazy"  relationship or in any way condoning sin. Read on...

I know my woman Loves me and would do anything for me, shes just a good woman. But if I develop such a smug aittitude or approach toward our relationship, that I now think, because she Loves me so much, that I no longer find the need to work on the things that are in me that irritate her, then my expression of Love toward her is selfish.

Do you see what you have done here?  You are comparing the relationship between God and you to the relationship between "your woman" and you. You are comparing an earthly , conditional relationship between two humans to a relationship between you and God- a God of unconditional Love. Your woman's love has limits. God's does not.  Your woman's love needs something in return.  God's love does not need anything. It is perfect love, which means that it doesn't need anything to complete it.   

I don't think our Relationship with God should be treated any differently. The desire to please God is best expressed by you actively moving away from the things that irritate God. Which defines Overcomming, you are actively expressing your Love toward him by your active participation in dealing with the " Ugly things" that you are actively doing.

You should have a desire to do good things.  That is wonderful. But where does this desire come from?  I think that you are still stuck on the reward/punishment paradigm.
I get the impression that you are trying to overcome to impress God.  I think that you feel to please God is to impress God.  If you can impress God, then your reward is due you.  You have earned it!  Right?  That is what you are saying.

God's pleasure for you is unwavering.  I guess you still haven't happened upon this revelation yet. There is nothing you can do that can make God take more pleasure in you or take less pleasure in you.  His pleasure in you (like His Love) is complete in its perfection.  You seem to be trying to earn His pleasure.

Why are you trying to earn His pleasure, which is already complete and perfect? You can't gain anymore.  What exactly are you trying to earn?  You keep bringing up overcoming.  Are you competing with other humans to be an overcomer so that you can get your reward?

... I want God to know that I want something to do with this. Iwant to be involved, because I believe. I like the battle with sin, I live to Overcome it as much as I can. And I know God is involved in it. It does not matter to me how much God will help me, I am going to fight it, and he knows this. Thats just how it is with me. I don't like what sin has done to me, if I did not know anything about God, I would still fight sin.

Wow...there are so many "I"s in that paragraph, I forgot that we were talking about Jesus.  I forgot that "It is finished."  You seem to be still very much entreched in legalism.  I guess you have moved beyong the legalism of heaven/hell but maybe you haven't moved beyong the legalism of special rewards and legalism of trying to influence God's pleasure and His love.  If you only knew that there was nothing you could do or not do that could changes God's pleasure for you.

I view that as confident selfishness

I'm really sorry you feel that way.  I'm not sure how you can say that about me and then relate the reward of overcoming that you will have earned yourself.  You appear to be so focused on your own battle that I fear you have missed many things. Take heart, these will come!

Grace and Peace...

[Mickiel]

[quote author=captamajora

I'm really sorry you feel that way.  I'm not sure how you can say that about me and then relate the reward of overcoming that you will have earned.  You are so focused on "YOUR" battle that I fear you have missed many things. Take heart, these will come!

Grace and Peace...



[/quote]


I earn characther development by my effort, and I will continue to focus on my battle. I view this very, very differently than you do.

When Jesus died and was ressurrected, he wond the right for us to have Salvation freely. His death didnot cancel out the battle with sin, it canceled out our need to be judged " According to Salvation", but we are still going to be judged according to our behavior. Allow me to construct a list of my beliefs:

Jesus Life and death gave us freedom from being condemned, not freedom to live in any manner that we so please.

Jesus accomplished our Salvation, not how we are now living our lives, that is something we must have a very active part in.

Jesus gave us eternal life, but his death didnot give us a mind that is unaffected by sin. We must develop our own mental directions in our lives, our own careers, choose our own mates, and raise our own families.

He didnot die to give us new personalitys, we have our own personalitys, and we are responsible for how we react to sin.

Jesus focused on our salvation, we must focus on weather we will smoke cigaretes or not. We must focus on weather we will get drunk or not. We are responsible for weather we will steal or not. Jesus death does NOT cancel out our desire to sin. We are responsible for weather we abuse ourselves or others, or curse at our neighbor, or lie to our friends. Jesus death does not automatically keep us from sinning, or excuse us from Overcomming sin.

Jesus death didnot put human believers on automatic pilot and free them from the responsibility of turning away from evil, he gave us Salvation, he didnot make us immune to sin.

Peace.

[captamajora]

Jesus Life and death gave us freedom from being condemned, not freedom to live in any manner that we so please.

You are assuming that this is what I mean. Why do you assume that I am telling you to sin or that it is OK to sin? I am not.  Like I said, I fear that you may have completely missed my point.

There is a paradox involved with sin. I'm not sure whether or not you've ever been conscious of it or not, but it exists and it is very powerful.

The more you focus on SIN, especially resisting sin, the more you will be driven to sin.  I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, but I have always found this to be true. Direct your focus on God, not sin. Focus on unwavering, perfect Love...

Anyways, it all comes down to motivation, Mickiel.  Check out my post "Can some good works be sinful".

Good luck with your journey

[Mickiel]

Jesus Life and death gave us freedom from being condemned, not freedom to live in any manner that we so please.

You are assuming that this is what I mean.  There is a paradox involved with sin. I'm not sure whether or not you've ever been conscious of it or not, but it exists and it is very powerful.

The more you focus on resisting sin, the more you will be driven to sin.  I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, but I have always found this to be true.

It all comes down to motivation, Mickiel.  Check out my post "Can some good works be sinful".

I just think we may be at different stages...

Good luck with your journey

Well we are no doubt at different stages, I will gladly take the lower stage, I hold no quarrell with you there. The more I focus on resisting sin, the more it is overcome in my life. Jesus assignment was to defeat Sin as it related to stopping our Salvation, he was not assigned to think for us, decide for us, live for us, and be responsible for everything that we do. He was not dispatched to make us do anything, or to afford us to be in some kind of " Spiritual Shell." He was not dispatched to seperate us from Sin, or even the opportunity to sin. So I differe greatly than how you view sin.

I certainly wholeheartly disagree that the more one resist sin, the more they would be driven to sin, that is utter nonsense to me. In fact, in my view, anyone who believes as such, their mind is already in a sin trap, because they think they are in none.

Through Jesus we have forgiveness of sin, not ignorance of it. I mean but you know, one may view this as they will, I am just not given to such influences that would take me away from reality. When Paul said he dies daily, he was refering to Overcomming, and you can refer to my post on what Overcomming is, if you can find it. The working out of our Salvation, is the Overcomming aspect of why we are alive in the flesh for so long until Christ returns. We are not left here and alive to be just worshipping God and basking in his glory until his return, the most important thing a person called of God can be doing is Overcomming.

I am not a part of this faction of God who have named and claimed so much from God, that they are just playing their harps and waiting for him to return. These feel as if they have already obtained everything from God and need not do anything. Even feeling as if they are excused from Overcomming and are Kings before their time, with Christ as their servant, doing everything for them.

Peace.

[sparrow]

I certainly wholeheartly disagree that the more one resist sin, the more they would be driven to sin, that is utter nonsense to me. In fact, in my view, anyone who believes as such, their mind is already in a sin trap, because they think they are in none.

Through Jesus we have forgiveness of sin, not ignorance of it. I mean but you know, one may view this as they will, I am just not given to such influences that would take me away from reality. When Paul said he dies daily, he was refering to Overcomming, and you can refer to my post on what Overcomming is, if you can find it. The working out of our Salvation, is the Overcomming aspect of why we are alive in the flesh for so long until Christ returns. We are not left here and alive to be just worshipping God and basking in his glory until his return, the most important thing a person called of God can be doing is Overcomming.

I am not a part of this faction of God who have named and claimed so much from God, that they are just playing their harps and waiting for him to return. These feel as if they have already obtained everything from God and need not do anything. Even feeling as if they are excused from Overcomming and are Kings before their time, with Christ as their servant, doing everything for them.

Peace.

I think that it's basically just perspective. You are maybe seeing something that wasn't really meant in the first place.

The way I see it is, the more you focus on God, the more you focus on LOVE... the more you are in line with what God has wanted you to become all along. The more you LOOK at sin, the more you think about sin, the more you harp on and become obsessed with sin, you are an ABSOLUTE SLAVE to sin.

I'll give you an analogy. Let's say you are someone who is trying to eat more healthful things and get away from the junk food. You could do one of two things:

Scenario A:
You buy your good food, but constantly think of candy, cakes and pies, and potato chips. You know the candy, cakes and pies look good on the shallow outside, but in your heart you know that it's full of harmful things that will not benefit your body at all. You see the healthy food but you do not focus on it or the good things it is doing for you. You decide, instead to keep thinking about candy, cakes, pies and potato chips. You beat yourself into submission over these danged candy, cakes pies and potato chips. You slip and eat a pie. You beat yourself up over it. You are a SLAVE to the candy, cakes pies and potato chips.

or

Scenario B:

You get rid of all the candy, cakes, pies and potato chips. You buy your good food. You think about how all that candy, cakes, pies and potato chips were so life-stealing. You look at your good food and you eat it, and it becomes more and more and more delicious to you. You don't even look at or think about the cakes, pies and potato chips, because you see them for what they are. You are focused on the good food. The good food makes you feel great, you have more energy, your skin is clearing up, you have less headaches, less stomach aches, your skin is glowing, you've lost weight... you are FOCUSED, not on the bad lifeless food, but the good life-giving food. You cease to become a slave to the cakes, candy, pies and potato chips. And look... since you are focusing on the good food, look at all of the benefits you see, and have NOTICED. When you were focused on the candy, cakes, pies and potato chips...you didn't even NOTICE the good things that were happening. You were all too busy worrying about the life-stealing candy, cakes, pies and potato chips.



You can either be a slave to sin....
keep picking it up and waving it in the air and trying to breathe life into it..

or you can cut the shackles which bind you...

6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self [1] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free [2] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

just my  :2c:

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

[captamajora]

Great analogy, Sparrow!  Very true...

[Mickiel]

[quote author=sparrow

I think that it's basically just perspective. You are maybe seeing something that wasn't really meant in the first place.

The way I see it is, the more you focus on God, the more you focus on LOVE... the more you are in line with what God has wanted you to become all along. The more you LOOK at sin, the more you think about sin, the more you harp on and become obsessed with sin, you are an ABSOLUTE SLAVE to sin.
[/quote]



Well I view it differently, Focus is Focus, weather it be on God or Sin, I see it as a good thing to do. And I do not view a focus on the sin in your life as some obsession. Obbession denotes something that is out of control and I see no harm whatsoever in wanting to be in control of the sin in your life. Is focus on God an obsession? Besides, if someone, and many do, consider my foucs on God to be an obsession, I couldcareless about that, just as I careless about those who consider my focus on my sin as being worthless. Its working for me. And I do not go around trying to make that work for others.

I like being an Overcommer, it suits my thirst for God. I have just as much thirst for God, as I do a thirst for Righteousness. I consider the thirst for Righteousness, as synonomus with the focus on Overcomming Sin, and do not seek to seperate them. Although some may walk a different path to God, I do not see a path to God that does not include Overcomming your sins.

If I am preparing to go on a trip, then I will pack my clothes, settle my business, plan my direction and consider the cost. Now if someone has decided to pay the cost for me, it still falls to me to prepare myself. I consider what Jesus has done as simular, he paied the cost of my Salvation, it still falls to me to prepare myself as best I can for the trip. And that is why God has not came and grabbed up his people as of yet, so they can prepare themselves for the occasion. The parable of the talents describes it as such. Those who did something with their talents, or who Overcame much sin in their Lives, spent their time well, those who went into whatever with their time for whatever reasons and did nothing, well they wasted that opportunity.

Anyhow, far be it from me to try to tell others what to do with their time. As for me, I will spend my time shedding as much sin as possible.

Peace.

[captamajora]

Anyhow, far be it from me to try to tell others what to do with their time. As for me, I will spend my time shedding as much sin as possible.

Well, I wish you the best with that...

I assume that by shedding your sin, you are becoming more righteous?

By becoming more "righteous", I assume you are becoming more worthy?

No matter how "righteous" you may become, it isn't worth anything to God.  Actually, I should re-phrase that. Your "worked-out" righteousness is compared to a filthy rags.  I've always understood this to mean that in God's eyes it is filthy and disgusting and going to be discarded.

He is able to separate us from our works.  Isn't that amazing? That is something that we as humans cannot do, either to ourselves, or eachother.

[Mickiel]

Anyhow, far be it from me to try to tell others what to do with their time. As for me, I will spend my time shedding as much sin as possible.

Well, I wish you the best with that...

I assume that by shedding your sin, you are becoming more righteous?

By becoming more "righteous", I assume you are becoming more worthy?

No matter how "righteous" you may become, it isn't worth anything to God.  Actually, I should re-phrase that. Your "worked-out" righteousness is compared to a filthy rags.  In God's eyes it is filthy and disgusting and going to be discarded.

He is able to separate us from our works.  Isn't that amazing? That is something that we as humans cannot do, either to ourselves, or eachother.

Well I am not working out my righteousness, I am trying to live better, because thats what I want to do. I have no works to list, I do not have Gods Holy Spirit, and I am not a Christian. But I still choose to live my life in a battle with my sin, because I don't like the sin. And I like doing something about it. And I know you may think I am a filthy rag to God, but what you think about me is meaningless.

Peace.

[captamajora]

And I know you may think I am a filthy rag to God, but what you think about me is meaningless.

Hmmm...Wow.

Absolutely Not. You are not a filthy rag.

Didn't you even read what I just wrote?

"He is able to separate us from our works.  Isn't that amazing? That is something that we as humans cannot do, either to ourselves, or eachother."

This means, by definition, that you are NOT a filthy rag.

Hey, if it makes you feel good to think that you are contributing in some way, so be it.

....but what you think about me is meaningless.

Well, it seems that this debate is becoming personal (from your end), so it is probably best to leave it at that...

[Mickiel]

[quote author=captamajora
"
Hey, if it makes you feel good to think that you are contributing in some way, so be it.
Quote


It certainly does make me feel good if I am contributing in some way.


Quote
Well, it seems that this debate is becoming personal (from your end), so it is probably best to leave it at that...Quote.

Well I do take it personal when someone trys to dictate the terms of Gods word to me, I then in turn let them know how I think about it.

But I can take or leave conversation, it makes no difference to me.

Peace.




[/quote]

[captamajora]

[quote author=Mickiel link=topic=2304.msg23255#msg23255 date=1205541771
Well I do take it personal when someone trys to dictate the terms of Gods word to me, I then in turn let them know how I think about it.
[/quote]

As I have let you know what I think of the "terms" that you have dictated to me.

I have shared my views, just as you have shared yours. You have misunderstood me if I came off as dictating anything to you. This is certainly not what I was meaning by any of this.  I was just trying to engage in a thoughtful debate.

We shared our thoughts.  If I was dictating to you, then you were certainly dictating to me...because we exchanged our thoughts.

Anyways, this conversation has become stagnant...

Take care...

[Kratos]

This conversation reminds me of the old TV preacher Gene Scott. Does anyone remember him? His message was similar to what is being said here. He would sit there preaching grace with a martini in one hand and smoking a cigar in the other saying that if he did one thing to work out righteousness then he was frustrating the grace of God.

This shows a very immature view of righteousness in my humble opinion. The Bible speaks both of righteousness which is imputed through faith in Jesus Christ when we get saved and the righteous fruit that should follow as we work out that salvation with fear and trembling. Here is how the balance is made in Ephesians:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Too many who do not like Christians to have any responsibility for their life miss the balance by stopping before the thought is completed in verse 10. It is true that we are saved and made righteous by grace through faith without any good works of our own. However, once we have been made righteous by faith as Christians, God should be working out that righteousness unto good works. The question is do we have a part in that "worked out" righteousness after we are saved as Mickiel suggests. Let's look at what the same Holy Spirit wrote through the same apostle Paul who was the one who gave the revelation of righteousness by faith without works.

1Co 9:24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Does anyone really believe that Paul was concerned about losing his salvation if he did not keep his body under submission? No, but he desired to be an Overcomer and partake in the first resurrection. He did not doubt that he was already made worthy to partake in the general resurrection of all, but he knew that the Overcomers would be raised first if they were not considered castaways for this priviledge.

Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

John

[sparrow]

This is a little off topic so excuse me. I read something in another thread and was going to comment but didn't and now, Kratos you have said something that has made me think about it all over again, so I'm going to go ahead and share my thoughts. PLEASE keep in mind, Kratos, I am NOT talking about you or trying to make you out to be something you are not. This is more of a general observation that was sparked yet again, this time by something you said that I can't even remember now. For me, the thought of trying to achieve some sort of "special status" makes me feel a little ill. I see so many that do this. and I do not understand it at all.

I think sometimes when man constantly dwells on the  :icon_king: :icon_queen: they think they will become over others who have not heard of Jesus or those who turn away from Jesus... I think that this causes them to not FULLY LOVE their enemies. Because it gives them something of an escape route for them to feel "better than" their enemies. In other words, if people think they will be reigning over their enemies in some life to come... or that they may have a little bit shinier of a crown they do not become humble enough to truly L-O-V-E their enemies, or their perceived enemies, rather. If you think that you are no better than your neighbor, that God loves your enemies as much as He loves you... then it's a little harder to love your enemies. But going through that fire of learning to LOVE, I mean... actually LOVING your enemies....it's such a wonderful thing when you arrive at the other side of it. Man, this is the LOVE that God is talking about...

Anyway, back to what I was talking about, it just doesn't sit well with me... all of this  :bgdance: :bgdance: :gangel: over being  :icon_king: :icon_queen: in some millenial reign. I prefer to think of everyone as being the same. No matter what they have learned in this life, or what God has led them to in this life... we who believe, are partaking of something heavenly already in this life. Why do we ALSO get some sort of "special status" in the life to come? If there is some sort of so-called "special status" fine, whatever. But I just can't sit here and be all  :bgdance:  :bgdance: over something like that. It just doesn't feel right. I say, let the ones who did not see the truth in this life on earth... let them discover God's love and let THEM have some sort of privilege of "reigning".... It's been enough of a blessing for me to know that God loves us ALL ..... while going through this earthly schoolground, it's enough of a blessing to just KNOW with all of my heart that God LOVES us ALL.... and everything is going to be ok.

I remember a long time ago thinking about the rapture theory (where Jesus comes and all of those people who had faith in Jesus go flying up in the air to meet him..) I remember thinking that even IF that were true,  people had it wrong. The people who would go flying up in the air to meet Jesus are the ones who didn't KNOW Jesus. The ones "left behind" to witness this "rapture" were those who already had faith in Jesus. They would be the ones who wouldn't be scared.... The "scared" ones would be the ones to meet Jesus in the air, first. Because we'd all be ok... y'know what I mean? Not knowing Jesus in this earthly lifetime.... is... well, to be blunt...hellish.

I don't know maybe I'm way off base here with this whole "those who will reign with Christ" but I just see too many times, people talking about their special status.... and it just... doesn't sit right.
and quite honestly makes me feel queasy.

Back to the topic...
I am not sitting here smoking a cigar and talking about grace.
I'm sitting here... reflecting on LOVE... and seeing LIFE in the path that God shows us to walk.
Sin has no REIGN over me.
Sin is DEAD.
I REFUSE... REFUSE to ALLOW sin to have any sort of power in my life. Sin is powerless.
The only time sin has power is when mankind tries to BREATHE LIFE into it....

I find it somewhat sad that people see death and ugliness in a subject that should bring life and light.
Freedom is not scary.
Freedom is not a threat. WHEN....
WHEN... your heart is in the right place...
When you realize what sin is.
and what LOVE is.
Think about that for awhile and maybe you will understand a little better.
People give sin FAR too much credit and FAR, FAR, FAR too much power.
We should know better than that...
Jesus came to show us the way.
The life.
The light.
It's not that hard.
We have a great teacher.
Are we going to forsake Him?
Forsake his teachings?
because we want to keep turning back around, picking up that dead thing called sin and trying to do CPR on it and breathe life into it? Why? For what? Talk about a lesson in futility.
LOVE is the most powerful thing in this universe.
God is LOVE.
Sin is dead.
When are we going to start believing this and having Faith in this?
and living it?

peace,
sparrow

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's probably because the "special status" has been incorrectly taught thru a flesh mentality instead of the mind of Christ. It is NOT the people who have the "special status", except as a fully submitted vessel (read dead to self here) for CHRIST IN THEM, the hope of GLORY, to manifest thru, as in the manifestation of the sons of God. It's Christ in full manifestation with the Father, as a many membered body son of God in this dispensation, returning as He said He would, in the "clouds", plural. But instead of being clouds without water as Jude speaks of, these clouds are to be full of the water of the Spirit, not just having a portion or earnest of the Spirit anymore.

And the only thing they are to reign over is the darkness that first (judgment begins in the house of the Lord, whose house we are) bound them, and then the darkness that keeps the rest of creation bound, which is what the rod of authority is for, as Moses, whose name means deliverer, so aptly demonstrated under the hand of God.

And very simply, if all were already appropriated that was provided for us thru the Son, then the walking "dead" would have resurrected in the glory and power of the Son, with full MANIFESTATION. Full manifestation requires the Father's approval and participation, for you can't have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son. That it is not here yet, is evident, but it's close. Blessings to all.... 

[Molly]

I hope it's close, in the sense that I will suddenly see the sons of God everywhere, because I am on my last nerve with the evil in this world.  I'm like this person--


Jeremiah 4:31
For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.


Neither do I have any interest in any more tribulation.  I'm sick to death of it!  I want Jesus in this world now, in his many membered body!


Hi Cardinal.... :girlheart:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hey there! And so do I on the closeness, and so am I on my last nerve with the evil. I am tired.........

[captamajora]

This conversation reminds me of the old TV preacher Gene Scott. Does anyone remember him? His message was similar to what is being said here. He would sit there preaching grace with a martini in one hand and smoking a cigar in the other saying that if he did one thing to work out righteousness then he was frustrating the grace of God.

This shows a very immature view of righteousness in my humble opinion

LOL...that is me exactly!

Except I am sitting at the computer, snorting cocaine while going back and forth to my favorite porn site!  Oh yeah, once in a while I awaken from from drug-induced lascivious daze long enough to shout obscenities in my family's face while I punch them in the stomach.

Gene Scott's got nothing on me.  I am really making grace ABOUND!

You guys are too funny...

"In your humble opinion"?  Why would an overcomer be so humble? You are rightfully earning your reward, right?

"The gift of God is aionian life."  Those who receive life at the first resurrection and have life through the aions receive it because it is a gift.

Like I said, you should check out Martin Zenders' talk on what it means to be an "overcomer."

[captamajora]

For me, the thought of trying to achieve some sort of "special status" makes me feel a little ill. I see so many that do this. and I do not understand it at all.

Ughhh...Me too!  I'm dry heaving as I type!

I think that this causes them to not FULLY LOVE their enemies. Because it gives them something of an escape route for them to feel "better than" their enemies.

Not only this, but FEAR begins to creep in again.  Not a fear of being lost, but a fear of...missing out on the first resurrection.

"What if I am not overcoming enough to be included in the first resurrection?!!"

Fear, self-doubt, guilt, judgement, etc,  all creep in again.

Sparrow, maybe we need to start the "immature view of righteousness" thread...

It's funny you should use the term "immature".  Didn't Jesus say that we should be as little children?

[Kratos]

Card and Molly,

I echo your sentiments. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Every time the truth of Overcoming is brought up, there will be those who filter this truth through the only reason they can see for someone desiring to rule and reign with Christ. It is all about a lack of love and wanting to control others.

Would anyone like to accuse Jesus of lacking love or not loving His enemies because He knew He was destined to rule with His Father in His throne?

How can anyone with a heart not look out at all of the hate and murder and rape and famine and war and not want God's Kingdom to come in manifestation on the earth? I groan within me waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God. Not because I want to be one, but because this is the way that Jesus is comng to establish His Kingdom and I too am weary waiting for it. Not for me only, but for all of the children of God who have been subject to this futility.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

John

Captamajora, Now, go ahead and make more fun of the scriptures or just avoid them like the last time.

[captamajora]

Captamajora, Now, go ahead and make more fun of the scriptures or just avoid them like the last time.

I am not making fun of the scriptures!

I am making fun of you insinuating that I believe this so that I have an excuse to be as sinful as I want.  That is the epitome of assumption. 

You have judged me and you are dead wrong.

Just to let you guys know:  I strive to be a better person all of the time.  I believe in temperance in all things. I treat everyone the way that I want to be treated.

I do this because it is right and because there is a drive within me to do so (and more all of the time)!

I don't strive for any particular reward or fear that I will lose any particular reward.  WIth the reward/punishment system come a whole host of problems...

[Kratos]

Captamajora,

You are assuming too much. I said that making fun lf Mickiel trying to live holy as if it adds anything to his salvation reminds me of Gene Scott. Yet, like I said about the pure seeing all things pure, you thought I was accusing you of drinking and smoking. A huge quantum leap and an assumption.

Now, if you want to be honest about the subject, address the scriptures about works that follow salvation and Paul running the race by keeping his body under submission instead of manuvering out by claiming to have been judged.

You can just admit that you were wrong and that the Bible does speak of Overcomers and working out our salvation after we are saved. Speaking down to Mickiel for trying to walk worthy of the Lord is not right.

John