Somebody stated in another thread, "We are all on the cross right now..." This is similar to the ubiquitous Christian catch-phrase, "this is my cross to bear."
I always wondered, If we all have to bear and carry our own "cross", get up on our cross, and eventually DIE (on our cross)...then are the "wages" of sin being paid for TWICE?
The wages (cost) of sin is death. We say that through Jesus' suffering and death that He COMPLETELY paid for sin.
If death is the cost of sin, doesn't everyone who dies pay for sin? Don't be so quick to say "no."
The wages of sin is death.
If I should die, then I have paid the wages of sin.
Then we say that it was Jesus' sufferings and death that paid for sin. So, now suffering is part of the payment for sin.
Guess what...I suffer! I suffer and I will eventually die like billions of other people.
Jesus Christ suffered and died and completely paid for sin by suffering and dying while every person on earth has also suffered and died or will suffer and die.
Why does God demand that the penalty of sin be paid for twice?
We say that God no longer counts our sin against us. We say that since Jesus (who was faultless) died, we are completely without sin in God's eyes.
If God is no longer counting our sins against us, why does everyone have to pay the wages of sin? Why does God require us to pay the wages of sin when:
a.) sins have already been paid for and...
b.) sins are no longer being ascribed to us?
Some people say that the wages of sin is "eternal" death, i.e.- death without end (no resurrection). For one thing, the Bible never says anything about the wages of sin being permanent death. No duration is mentioned...just death.
If the wages of sin truly were permanent death, then Jesus did not completely pay for sin because He was not eternally dead. So, it is clear that the wages of sin is the state of death, duration being of no consequence. Jesus was dead for three days while others have been dead for 5,000+ years. You could add another million years to that and it doesn't change the fact that it isn't the duration but rather the "act" of succumbing to death, and therfore, being in the state of death.
If the wages of sin is death and the wages have already been paid for, then we should have NO death. We should have NO death right now! As we know, this comes later at the consummation, when death is abolished.
So, have our sins been paid for or not? They have but it hasn't been enacted yet? If someone wrotes a decree but the decree will only go into effect later, does the decree really exist now?
It the eradication of death validates the existance of this decree, and death has not been eradicated...does the decree exist in the present? Is the decree presently fulfilled?
I love it when people say "ALL is fulfilled!" Really? You must not have noticed but we are all still dying. Each one of us are still paying for sin. I guess they missed that somehow...
So, Jesus pays for our sins now by paying for them later, and after we've all paid the same penalty?
Hi
Check this out
Did Jesus die to appease an angry God? (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1789.msg17339#msg17339)
Blessings
Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
"sons of disobedience"
sons ["uihos" SON, CHILD, FOAL] of disobedience ["apeitheia"DISBELIEF, OBSTINATE, REBELLIOUS, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF]
"uihos apeitheia"
Thanks for the link,Seeker. Great post!
If Jesus truly was a substitute, then He, by default, would HAVE to experience that which we are being exempted from. If permanent death was what God's Justice neccesitated, the He would have HAD to have been permanently dead in order to truly be our substitution.
You can look at it this way:
God's Justice requires either death (limited duration), endless death (annihilation), or eternal torment. The entire "subsitution" theory entails the belief that what would have been given to us is given to our substitute.
In order to be a true substitute for our sins, Jesus would have had to been given EXACTLY what we would be given for sins.
Well, we know that Jesus was not annihilated and He certainly is not being tortured right now, so we are left with one- a death of limited duration.
So, since Jesus was not annihilated and is not being eternally tormented, then it is clear that God's Justice requires temporal death ( death of an indefinite but limited duration).
So, if God's Justice requires temporal death and Jesus was a substitute for us, then we should not experience death of any duration.
Well, obviously we do die. Jesus' death was not a substitute for our death. Every time a human being dies, God's Justice is being fulfilled.
Ephesians 5:14
Therefore He says: " Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."
:cloud9: It is not talked about much on here for some reason, but there are 2 resurrections. One if you literally die and one if incorruption swallows up corruption. If this were not true, there would be no point to pressing in and being an overcomer, if the end result were the same. The "rapture" is the counterfeit of being caught up while still in the body and not seeing death. Most of us here know that is a false doctrine, but not much mention is made of the reality the false doctrine mimics. Hmmm.....it must be a powerful reality in God for such a spirit of delusion and counterfeit to rise up...... :winkgrin: Blessings to you.....
51lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
53for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
54and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
55where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
--1 Cor 15
:cloud9: Amen.....I don't understand why people think we overcome death by dying. We overcome death by NOT dying. If you understand that we too are each "days" of the Lord, then the message to us is, that Enoch the SEVENTH (DAY) from Adam, walked with God and was caught up and did not see death.
Years ago, I asked the Lord what the greater works we were going to do, were. He said, "To bring the soul in union with the Spirit." On down the road, another revelation hit me up side the head. To bring the soul in union with the Spirit, IS the resurrection. And this resurrection does not have to happen without a physical body.
Conversely, the definition of "death" then, is the soul and Spirit not being in union, which death came upon us in the garden and ever since, which is why Jesus told the young man who wanted to go to the funeral, to let the dead bury the dead. Blessings to all.....
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
--1 Cor 15
...through our Lord Jesus Christ.
"through"
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional).
The way that I see it is the fall injected a sin nature into mankind through inheritance. We do not die because of Adam's sin like the doctrine of original sin. Instead, we were in Adam when he sinned so partake of a sin nature. We die because of our own sin when this nature conceives and brings forth sin.
Jesus came to inject a godly or righteousness nature into us when we are born again. Now we must take up our cross and die to our sin nature so we are delivered from the power of death. Overcomers will be those whose obedience is fulfilled until they overcome the last enemy which is death. Jesus rose from the dead because He was sinless and death could not hold Him.
This is working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The life and righteousness which is in us through Christ in our spirit man must work its way out through our soul and into our bodies. When this corruption will have taken on incorruption and this mortal body takes on immortality, then the last enemy of death will have been overcome in us.
John
:cloud9: I agree with you Kratos, in the sense that it was not Adam's particular sin that we are dying for, but rather the result of it, ie. that "tree" cannot produce anything but corrupt fruit, every seed bears fruit after it's own kind. They could not reproduce offspring that would do any differently than what they did. If they could, then we would not need Christ. I THINK we are seeing the same thing, just expressing it in our own vocabulary, yes? And I definitely agree with the rest of what you wrote, also.....Blessings to you.......
Quote from: captamajora on March 13, 2008, 04:55:20 PM
Somebody stated in another thread, "We are all on the cross right now..." This is similar to the ubiquitous Christian catch-phrase, "this is my cross to bear."
I always wondered, If we all have to bear and carry our own "cross", get up on our cross, and eventually DIE (on our cross)...then are the "wages" of sin being paid for TWICE?
:cloud9: To answer this directly, no. But the servant is not greater than the master. What He walked out in the natural, we walk out and fulfill spiritually. We have experienced Passover spiritually, some have fulfilled Pentecost spiritually, and we will/or are fulfilling Tabernacles as well as the other feasts, spiritually. It is already done for us, in the sense He did it as the forerunner of those that go beyond the veil, but we are still required to walk it out in shoe leather. A forerunner means others will follow.
Works without faith is dead, and faith without works is dead. Without works, (ie. if it's all already done for us) what do we need faith for? Blessings to you......
Card, Blessings to you too.
I do think we are saying the same things. Jesus said that an evil tree cannot produce good fruit. No matter how hard a child may try to be righteous once they come to the age of choice, that sin nature or evil tree will win out eventually and they will partake of death. For some it may be at 10 and others 15 years old. This is where I see free will in the equation balanced with sovereignty. God sovereignly placed us all in Adam and subjected us to futility, but our free will can hold off the inevitable for a while, but not forever. All have eventually have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
The good news of the gospel is that God also sovereignly has placed us all in Christ and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is stronger than the law of sin and death in Adam. So, the good tree will eventually overcome the evil tree in all of Adam's race. This is sovereignly determined by God and our free will cannot frustrate the grace of God. However, free will comes into play in that some will choose to yield to Christ in them before others will. The overcomers will yield to the Spirit's leading and overcome the power of death while still in this life. On the other end of the curve, there will be some that will not yield to the Christ nature until after the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire.
John
:cloud9: I thought so. :thumbsup: As for free will, I see it in limited operation, but as I said on the original thread, I think that at some point of HIS making, you realize it is an illusion. An illusion, in the sense that since He knows the end from the beginning, He will bring circumstances to bear that will correct your choices ultimately, and line it up with His perfect will.
Personally, I think what is actually being seen is that one (free will) is in the works realm of operation, and the other (sovereignty) is in the faith realm of operation, and just like we have to walk out every aspect of BOTH those realms to have more quickened to us, so it is with this, and like everything else, all of us are in different stages of that processing, and bringing balance.
As for me, my first inkling was revealed to me in a study I did years ago on the names of the people, places and things in the Bible. There is no way by chance free will, those nomadic peoples just "happened" to name their kids names, whose recorded life experiences, would "speak" volumes to those of us that are the heirs of salvation. It brought tremendous comfort to me, and was one of the initial revelations that confirmed to me, a skeptic originally, that the Bible was in fact, divinely inspired. That's my :2c:.....Blessings........
I know that neither of us want to start this debate again, but I think it really comes down to semantics. I define free will as having the power to make choices. Plants do not have free will and a man in a coma does not have free will. I fully acknowledge that God and circumstances that are arranged by God influence our choices, but they are still our choices to make. This is the reason that God says so much about faithful and unfaithful servants and differing rewards based on the choices that we make within the parameters that God sets and arranges. So many get hung up on the word "free" when it comes to our choices thinking that it is not free will if anything influences our choices. However, in my semantics, this is omnipotence as only God can make choices free from outside influences.
Either way, I think we agree more than disagree on this. I just resist those who both hold that God sovereignly makes us do whatever we do, and yet, some of these choices He calls evil and worthy of punishment or loss of reward. This seems unrighteous to me and shall not the judge of the whole earth judge righteously? If He is going to reward differently as the scriptures about overcomers indicate in Rev. 2 and 3, then we must have the ability to make choices to some extent and this I call free will. I think this is also how most people except some theologians define the term.
Blessings again....
John
Hmmmm
You guys have gone off on tangents and have not really addressed the issue.
Do you consider Jesus to our substitute? Yes or no?
If the answer is "yes", than what did He experience in His death that we also will not experience.
Did Jesus really pay the wages of sin for all of mankind? Yes or No?
On a side note: What is all of this overcomer talk? Do you really think that anything that you do qualifies you for something? Those who have aionian life will because the belief in God was GIVEN to them- it has nothing to do with THEM overcoming.
If you think that YOU are overcoming something, think again.
This may be the wrong forum for the positing of my ideas...
Quote from: captamajora on March 14, 2008, 01:44:39 AM
This may be the wrong forum for the positing of my ideas...
Not at all. I'm interested in your ideas, I just haven't posted anything...
I observe a lot. :winkgrin:
Please keep posting, captamajora.
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
Captamajora,
I hope you do stick around as I always enjoy getting to know family members that I have not met yet.
As far as not addressing the issue as you would like, you will find that not all posters see things the same way here at Tentmaker or as you do. Both Cardinal and I did address the issue as we see it. Please don't get offended and go away just because we did not address it as you see it.
Like I said, Jesus died so that we could receive His righteous nature. In this way, the spirit of life in Christ Jesus can overcome the power of sin and death in us. We had to be in Him when He died and in Him when He rose for this to be possible. God works through process instead of through instantaneous impartation. A sin nature was in us by being all in Adam and the process which began brought forth death in us all. Jesus' righteous nature is in us through faith in Jesus and this begins the process of our overcoming death Him.
Blessings,
John
The wages of sin is death.
My understanding of this is very different then the aceptable by most.
Gen. 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why is your expression downcast? 4:7 Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you, but you must subdue it."
sin is crouching
19tn The Hebrew term translated "crouching" (רֹבֵץ, rovets) is an active participle. Sin is portrayed with animal imagery here as a beast crouching and ready to pounce (a figure of speech known as zoomorphism). An Akkadian cognate refers to a type of demon; in this case perhaps one could translate, "Sin is the demon at the door"
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
1Jo 5:18 ΒΆ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
So who is born of God?
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
So the wages of sin(demons) comes from a defeated devil.
:cloud9: Glad to see you back sharing Giftsimple........
Quote from: giftsimple on March 14, 2008, 06:32:38 AM
So the wages of sin(demons) comes from a defeated devil.
The wages of sin is death. "As in Adam ALL die" Everybody DIES. Everybody pays the wages of death. It's really seems quite simple.
How can somebody be a subsitute for you and have you go through the same thing?
How can this be? What is it about the state of death that Jesus experienced that you won't?
You're not one that thinks that sin was born in the devil, are you?
Isaiah 45:7 reads "I make peace and create EVIL. I the Lord, do all these things."
Romans 11: 36 "For
from Him and through Him and to Him are
ALL things."
You give the devil way too much credit. The devil (and demons) did not come up with anything. They are merely players on a stage.
Everybody thinks that sin was "found" in the adversary's heart that it means that it came from himself. Sure it was found there, but does everyone really already forget who placed it there.
The wages of sin is not demons. The wages of sin is, just as is stated, death. Sin and death all fall under the umbrella of evil, which was created by God. You can't attribute it to anyone or anything else. Relatively speaking, death comes from the destroyer, but ultimately, the destroyer comes from God and is used by God. God created death (or the lack of life) for a purpose.
I am not saying that the death of Christ was not imperative. Obviously it was. I by no means completely understand it or have everything right. No one does. There isn't a person on the face of the planet that understands everything about God. I'm thankful that our restoration does not depend on our knowledge of theology, because EVERYONE has a different take. That is normal and actually, wonderful. It allows all of us to look at things from a different perspective (even if it may be a little uncomfortable).
I just know when things can't be. Jesus couldn't have been a substitution. What was He a substitution for? I know what He did was huge and I don't know how all of it worked and why it worked the way it did, or even why it had to be done in that way. I just know that He didn't die in my place, because if someone shoots me through the heart, I will die.
He is not saving us from annihilation of eternal damnation because neither one of these exist. If they did, He would have to have been given one of these. So what did He save us from? The power of sin in our lives?
What was is about the death of Jesus that all of a sudden made it possible for humans to be saved? Before then God wouldn't or couldn't do it? If so, why?
Wasn't it the nature of God that saved us from the beginning. Love without end. Wasn't love that saved us and would have saved us no matter what?
Hypothetically speaking, If Jesus didn't come and die, we would not be able to be saved?
God's hands would be tied behind His back and that would be it?
We are saved because we are loved and we have always been loved the same (because God is unwavering) and therefore we were always saved (and I'm not talking about foreknowledge here).
Quote from: captamajora on March 14, 2008, 01:44:39 AM
Hmmmm
You guys have gone off on tangents and have not really addressed the issue.
On a side note: What is all of this overcomer talk? Do you really think that anything that you do qualifies you for something? Those who have aionian life will because the belief in God was GIVEN to them- it has nothing to do with THEM overcoming.
If you think that YOU are overcoming something, think again.
This may be the wrong forum for the positing of my ideas...
I am curious, since you seem to believe that believers do not need to do their best to surmount the temptations and obstacles that sin places in our path, which is what overcomming is, if a sin or several sins are getting the best of you, what would you suggest is occuring? God is not doing his Job? And do you consider the human effort to fight sin and not let it get the best of you, as somethingelse other than Overcomming? What would you call it, since its not Overcomming? Or what would you say is happening to me, if I have a lot of sin in my life? Would you say God is not with me?
Peace
You are answering my question by asking more questions, but you never answered mine. I will ask again.
Do you think that anything you do qualifies you for something? Can you do something that makes you more worthy of something (a particular reward) than another person?
If you say "yes" then you think that works are rewarded. This means that YOU can take credit for your reward. Do you believe that you will be able to take credit for overcoming?
It will be to your credit that you overcame, and someone else's fault when they don't? Wouldn't it then follow that you should get the glory if it was you who mustered up enough willpower to "overcome"?
"And do you consider the human effort to fight sin and not let it get the best of you, as something else other than Overcomming?"
The term "slave to sin" is very nuanced. People automatically assume that it means that you are a slave to your selfish desires. Yes, you can be a slave to sin in this manner.
You can also be a slave to sin by constantly focusing on sin and battling it. If you are constantly preoccupied with "overcoming" sin, then you are a slave to sin. You are a slave to the concept of sin. You are a slave to battling sin. You are supposed to be dead to sin. Sin should be of no consequence to you anymore because you know the truth- that nothing you do can separate you from God or make him love and accept you any more or any less. This doesn't give you license to sin, as God never condones sin, but it allows you to REST from worry over sin. You now don't have to concern yourself with sin. When you don't concern yourself with sin, you are dead to sin. If you are constantly battling sin and trying desparately to overcome it, then you are a slave to sin.
Martin Zender has a great audio series on what it means to be an overcomer. Hint: it's not what you think.
Check it out if you want- www.martinzender.com/ZenderTalk/i_used_to_be_an_overcomer/overcomerfr.htm
I'm following you, captamajora. I've had these same thoughts, myself actually, but you worded it a little better than I could have.
Had Jesus come to sacrifice himself to be the "once and for all" atonement for the sins of the world and future generations and to show us a way? Animal sacrifices were meant to SHOW us something.... about Love and sin and evil. Sin is absence of love. Sin is death. The animal sacrifices make sense, sin is death. God was showing us something.
But now, we are moving through history -HIS STORY- and it was now time to do away with the "simple, shallow" animal sacrificial system. To do away with the old animal sacrifices, because it was now time to MOVE ON and wade out into the deeper waters of what LOVE is? He was showing us what sin was and now was time to show us what Love is. Now, Jesus came to show us something, LOVE. They never did see those animals come back to life, no... they remained dead (as far as they could tell.) But Jesus was resurrected. Was God showing us a different way? Was God showing us the power of Love? That sin is dead.... sin is futile. But Love is the most powerful thing?
God IS Love.
well, just thinking out loud here...
Captamajora, what you've said has made absolute sense.
How could Jesus have been a "substitute"....?
I think He came to show us a WAY...
After all this is HIS story..and isn't He just trying to teach us?
Well, like I said..just thinking out loud here.
peace,
sparrow
p.s. and then every once in awhile, I think to myself... were they supposed to be sacrificing those animals? Or did God think "you boneheads, stop sacrificing my little animals that I created, to try and "atone" for your sins!" HERE, I will come and be the ULTIMATE, atoning sacrifice. Now stop sacrificing those animals and MOVE ON to what you are really supposed to be learning here!!"
:dontknow: Of course, it all makes sense... (the animal sacrificial system put in place to show us something.) But there was a time for it, and the time for that was up and Jesus came.
[quote author=captamajora link
If you are constantly battling sin and trying desparately to overcome it, then you are a slave to sin.
Quote.
Well I certainly disagree with this. Such confidence in Christ is beyond me. In Relationships, its good to have confidence, but when your confidence deletes your part in the relationship, then your " Taking" it for granted. I know my woman Loves me and would do anything for me, shes just a good woman. But if I develop such a smug aittitude or approach toward our relationship, that I now think, because she Loves me so much, that I no longer find the need to work on the things that are in me that irritate her, then my expression of Love toward her is selfish. I am so confident of her Love for me, that it renders me more selfish as to the things I must do to express my Love toward her. One of the finest expressions of Love in a relationship, is for you to move away from the things that irritate your mate.
I don't think our Relationship with God should be treated any differently. The desire to please God is best expressed by you actively moving away from the things that irritate God. Which defines Overcomming, you are actively expressing your Love toward him by your active participation in dealing with the " Ugly things" that you are actively doing. Now if some have reached some kind of " Laid back Spiritual approach" toward sin, which suggest that we need not actively participate in the battle with sin, then I view that as confident selfishness. Such an aittitude suggest to me that Jesus was beaten to death, so that we may enjoy our lives and take no concern about our personal sinful behavior.
I agree with a constant focus on your sin, and then do something about it. Do what you can, bit by bit, inspite of what Christ has done. Doing this " Qualifys and Identifys" your own personal characther and approach toward a relationship with God. What ever you " Do" adds to your characther, because your salvation is already a done deal. You have something to do with your characther in a relationship with even God. It will be to your credit that your mindset and personality are complettely involved in what you believe in.
And don't get me wrong, it matters not to me what you think about this, my behavior is dependant on me and God, and I want God to know that I want something to do with this. I want to be involved, because I believe. I like the battle with sin, I live to Overcome it as much as I can. And I know God is involved in it. It does not matter to me how much God will help me, I am going to fight it, and he knows this. Thats just how it is with me. I don't like what sin has done to me, if I didnot know anything about God, I would still fight sin. Comming to know God a little more has not changed that desire in me. I have not reached some quasi Spiritual stage that offers to me some kind of rest from the fight, and hold no quarrell with those who have. Overcomming sin is still something I must do, and I am glad that others have reached a stage that they no longer have to struggle with sin. I have not gotten to that point in my life.
Peace.
Quote from: captamajora on March 14, 2008, 05:50:39 PM
You can also be a slave to sin by constantly focusing on sin and battling it. If you are constantly preoccupied with "overcoming" sin, then you are a slave to sin. You are a slave to the concept of sin. You are a slave to battling sin. You are supposed to be dead to sin. Sin should be of no consequence to you anymore because you know the truth- that nothing you do can separate you from God or make him love and accept you any more or any less. This doesn't give you license to sin, as God never condones sin, but it allows you to REST from worry over sin. You now don't have to concern yourself with sin. When you don't concern yourself with sin, you are dead to sin. If you are constantly battling sin and trying desparately to overcome it, then you are a slave to sin.
I wholeheartedly agree. And just my :2c: for what it's worth: Being a slave to sin is a huge time-waster, it's selfish (it puts all of your focus on yourself), and you are keeping yourself stuck in the muck. "Go and sin no more". He didn't say "and if you do, keep looking at that sin with a microscope and examine it and re-examine it and struggle and sweat and toil..." GO AND SIN NO MORE. Being a slave to sin means you are incessantly focused on it. Let love rule in your life.... and when you stumble, do not let it destroy you, destroy your mind, your heart... GO.AND.SIN.NO.MORE.
stop wasting time. Let LOVE become the power in your life.
Love is the most powerful thing in the universe... Sin is nothing. Sin is DEAD. Stop picking it up and waving it around like it is some powerful force. It is not. It is dead. lifeless.
Focus on LIFE.
Focus on LOVE.
and stop wasting time.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 06:29:02 PM
Well I certainly disagree with this. Such confidence in Christ is beyond me.
Well I am sorry that you don't have such confidence in Christ. You tell me this as though it is a detriment... Anyways, I fear you've missed my point. I am not encouraging a "lazy" relationship or in any way condoning sin. Read on...
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 06:29:02 PM
I know my woman Loves me and would do anything for me, shes just a good woman. But if I develop such a smug aittitude or approach toward our relationship, that I now think, because she Loves me so much, that I no longer find the need to work on the things that are in me that irritate her, then my expression of Love toward her is selfish.
Do you see what you have done here? You are comparing the relationship between God and you to the relationship between "your woman" and you. You are comparing an earthly , conditional relationship between two humans to a relationship between you and God- a God of unconditional Love. Your woman's love has limits. God's does not. Your woman's love needs something in return. God's love does not need anything. It is perfect love, which means that it doesn't need anything to complete it.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 06:29:02 PM
I don't think our Relationship with God should be treated any differently. The desire to please God is best expressed by you actively moving away from the things that irritate God. Which defines Overcomming, you are actively expressing your Love toward him by your active participation in dealing with the " Ugly things" that you are actively doing.
You should have a desire to do good things. That is wonderful. But where does this desire come from? I think that you are still stuck on the reward/punishment paradigm.
I get the impression that you are trying to overcome to impress God. I think that you feel to please God is to impress God. If you can impress God, then your reward is due you. You have earned it! Right? That is what you are saying.
God's pleasure for you is unwavering. I guess you still haven't happened upon this revelation yet. There is nothing you can do that can make God take more pleasure in you or take less pleasure in you. His pleasure in you (like His Love) is complete in its perfection. You seem to be trying to earn His pleasure.
Why are you trying to earn His pleasure, which is already complete and perfect? You can't gain anymore. What exactly are you trying to earn? You keep bringing up overcoming. Are you competing with other humans to be an overcomer so that you can get your reward?
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 06:29:02 PM
... I want God to know that I want something to do with this. Iwant to be involved, because I believe. I like the battle with sin, I live to Overcome it as much as I can. And I know God is involved in it. It does not matter to me how much God will help me, I am going to fight it, and he knows this. Thats just how it is with me. I don't like what sin has done to me, if I did not know anything about God, I would still fight sin.
Wow...there are so many "I"s in that paragraph, I forgot that we were talking about Jesus. I forgot that "It is finished." You seem to be still very much entreched in legalism. I guess you have moved beyong the legalism of heaven/hell but maybe you haven't moved beyong the legalism of special rewards and legalism of trying to influence God's pleasure and His love. If you only knew that there was nothing you could do or not do that could changes God's pleasure for you.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 06:29:02 PM
I view that as confident selfishness
I'm really sorry you feel that way. I'm not sure how you can say that about me and then relate the reward of overcoming that you will have earned yourself. You appear to be so focused on your own battle that I fear you have missed many things. Take heart, these will come!
Grace and Peace...
[quote author=captamajora
I'm really sorry you feel that way. I'm not sure how you can say that about me and then relate the reward of overcoming that you will have earned. You are so focused on "YOUR" battle that I fear you have missed many things. Take heart, these will come!
Grace and Peace...
[/quote]
I earn characther development by my effort, and I will continue to focus on my battle. I view this very, very differently than you do.
When Jesus died and was ressurrected, he wond the right for us to have Salvation freely. His death didnot cancel out the battle with sin, it canceled out our need to be judged " According to Salvation", but we are still going to be judged according to our behavior. Allow me to construct a list of my beliefs:
Jesus Life and death gave us freedom from being condemned, not freedom to live in any manner that we so please.
Jesus accomplished our Salvation, not how we are now living our lives, that is something we must have a very active part in.
Jesus gave us eternal life, but his death didnot give us a mind that is unaffected by sin. We must develop our own mental directions in our lives, our own careers, choose our own mates, and raise our own families.
He didnot die to give us new personalitys, we have our own personalitys, and we are responsible for how we react to sin.
Jesus focused on our salvation, we must focus on weather we will smoke cigaretes or not. We must focus on weather we will get drunk or not. We are responsible for weather we will steal or not. Jesus death does NOT cancel out our desire to sin. We are responsible for weather we abuse ourselves or others, or curse at our neighbor, or lie to our friends. Jesus death does not automatically keep us from sinning, or excuse us from Overcomming sin.
Jesus death didnot put human believers on automatic pilot and free them from the responsibility of turning away from evil, he gave us Salvation, he didnot make us immune to sin.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 10:06:48 PM
Jesus Life and death gave us freedom from being condemned, not freedom to live in any manner that we so please.
You are assuming that this is what I mean. Why do you assume that I am telling you to sin or that it is OK to sin? I am not. Like I said, I fear that you may have completely missed my point.
There is a paradox involved with sin. I'm not sure whether or not you've ever been conscious of it or not, but it exists and it is very powerful.
The more you focus on SIN, especially resisting sin, the more you will be driven to sin. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, but I have always found this to be true. Direct your focus on God, not sin. Focus on unwavering, perfect Love...
Anyways, it all comes down to motivation, Mickiel. Check out my post "Can some good works be sinful".
Good luck with your journey
Quote from: captamajora on March 14, 2008, 10:29:13 PM
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 10:06:48 PM
Jesus Life and death gave us freedom from being condemned, not freedom to live in any manner that we so please.
You are assuming that this is what I mean. There is a paradox involved with sin. I'm not sure whether or not you've ever been conscious of it or not, but it exists and it is very powerful.
The more you focus on resisting sin, the more you will be driven to sin. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, but I have always found this to be true.
It all comes down to motivation, Mickiel. Check out my post "Can some good works be sinful".
I just think we may be at different stages...
Good luck with your journey
Well we are no doubt at different stages, I will gladly take the lower stage, I hold no quarrell with you there. The more I focus on resisting sin, the more it is overcome in my life. Jesus assignment was to defeat Sin as it related to stopping our Salvation, he was not assigned to think for us, decide for us, live for us, and be responsible for everything that we do. He was not dispatched to make us do anything, or to afford us to be in some kind of " Spiritual Shell." He was not dispatched to seperate us from Sin, or even the opportunity to sin. So I differe greatly than how you view sin.
I certainly wholeheartly disagree that the more one resist sin, the more they would be driven to sin, that is utter nonsense to me. In fact, in my view, anyone who believes as such, their mind is already in a sin trap, because they think they are in none.
Through Jesus we have forgiveness of sin, not ignorance of it. I mean but you know, one may view this as they will, I am just not given to such influences that would take me away from reality. When Paul said he dies daily, he was refering to Overcomming, and you can refer to my post on what Overcomming is, if you can find it. The working out of our Salvation, is the Overcomming aspect of why we are alive in the flesh for so long until Christ returns. We are not left here and alive to be just worshipping God and basking in his glory until his return, the most important thing a person called of God can be doing is Overcomming.
I am not a part of this faction of God who have named and claimed so much from God, that they are just playing their harps and waiting for him to return. These feel as if they have already obtained everything from God and need not do anything. Even feeling as if they are excused from Overcomming and are Kings before their time, with Christ as their servant, doing everything for them.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2008, 10:53:10 PM
I certainly wholeheartly disagree that the more one resist sin, the more they would be driven to sin, that is utter nonsense to me. In fact, in my view, anyone who believes as such, their mind is already in a sin trap, because they think they are in none.
Through Jesus we have forgiveness of sin, not ignorance of it. I mean but you know, one may view this as they will, I am just not given to such influences that would take me away from reality. When Paul said he dies daily, he was refering to Overcomming, and you can refer to my post on what Overcomming is, if you can find it. The working out of our Salvation, is the Overcomming aspect of why we are alive in the flesh for so long until Christ returns. We are not left here and alive to be just worshipping God and basking in his glory until his return, the most important thing a person called of God can be doing is Overcomming.
I am not a part of this faction of God who have named and claimed so much from God, that they are just playing their harps and waiting for him to return. These feel as if they have already obtained everything from God and need not do anything. Even feeling as if they are excused from Overcomming and are Kings before their time, with Christ as their servant, doing everything for them.
Peace.
I think that it's basically just perspective. You are maybe seeing something that wasn't really meant in the first place.
The way I see it is, the more you focus on God, the more you focus on LOVE... the more you are in line with what God has wanted you to become all along. The more you LOOK at sin, the more you think about sin, the more you harp on and become obsessed with sin, you are an ABSOLUTE SLAVE to sin.
I'll give you an analogy. Let's say you are someone who is trying to eat more healthful things and get away from the junk food. You could do one of two things:
Scenario A:
You buy your good food, but constantly think of candy, cakes and pies, and potato chips. You know the candy, cakes and pies look good on the shallow outside, but in your heart you know that it's full of harmful things that will not benefit your body at all. You see the healthy food but you do not focus on it or the good things it is doing for you. You decide, instead to keep thinking about candy, cakes, pies and potato chips. You beat yourself into submission over these danged candy, cakes pies and potato chips. You slip and eat a pie. You beat yourself up over it. You are a SLAVE to the candy, cakes pies and potato chips.
or
Scenario B:
You get rid of all the candy, cakes, pies and potato chips. You buy your good food. You think about how all that candy, cakes, pies and potato chips were so life-stealing. You look at your good food and you eat it, and it becomes more and more and more delicious to you. You don't even look at or think about the cakes, pies and potato chips, because you see them for what they are. You are focused on the good food. The good food makes you feel great, you have more energy, your skin is clearing up, you have less headaches, less stomach aches, your skin is glowing, you've lost weight... you are FOCUSED, not on the bad lifeless food, but the good life-giving food. You cease to become a slave to the cakes, candy, pies and potato chips. And look... since you are focusing on the good food, look at all of the benefits you see, and have NOTICED. When you were focused on the candy, cakes, pies and potato chips...you didn't even NOTICE the good things that were happening. You were all too busy worrying about the life-stealing candy, cakes, pies and potato chips.
You can either be a slave to sin....
keep picking it up and waving it in the air and trying to breathe life into it..
or you can cut the shackles which bind you...
6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self [1] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free [2] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.just my :2c:
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
Great analogy, Sparrow! Very true...
[quote author=sparrow
I think that it's basically just perspective. You are maybe seeing something that wasn't really meant in the first place.
The way I see it is, the more you focus on God, the more you focus on LOVE... the more you are in line with what God has wanted you to become all along. The more you LOOK at sin, the more you think about sin, the more you harp on and become obsessed with sin, you are an ABSOLUTE SLAVE to sin.
[/quote]
Well I view it differently, Focus is Focus, weather it be on God or Sin, I see it as a good thing to do. And I do not view a focus on the sin in your life as some obsession. Obbession denotes something that is out of control and I see no harm whatsoever in wanting to be in control of the sin in your life. Is focus on God an obsession? Besides, if someone, and many do, consider my foucs on God to be an obsession, I couldcareless about that, just as I careless about those who consider my focus on my sin as being worthless. Its working for me. And I do not go around trying to make that work for others.
I like being an Overcommer, it suits my thirst for God. I have just as much thirst for God, as I do a thirst for Righteousness. I consider the thirst for Righteousness, as synonomus with the focus on Overcomming Sin, and do not seek to seperate them. Although some may walk a different path to God, I do not see a path to God that does not include Overcomming your sins.
If I am preparing to go on a trip, then I will pack my clothes, settle my business, plan my direction and consider the cost. Now if someone has decided to pay the cost for me, it still falls to me to prepare myself. I consider what Jesus has done as simular, he paied the cost of my Salvation, it still falls to me to prepare myself as best I can for the trip. And that is why God has not came and grabbed up his people as of yet, so they can prepare themselves for the occasion. The parable of the talents describes it as such. Those who did something with their talents, or who Overcame much sin in their Lives, spent their time well, those who went into whatever with their time for whatever reasons and did nothing, well they wasted that opportunity.
Anyhow, far be it from me to try to tell others what to do with their time. As for me, I will spend my time shedding as much sin as possible.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2008, 01:24:45 AM
Anyhow, far be it from me to try to tell others what to do with their time. As for me, I will spend my time shedding as much sin as possible.
Well, I wish you the best with that...
I assume that by shedding your sin, you are becoming more righteous?
By becoming more "righteous", I assume you are becoming more worthy?
No matter how "righteous" you may become, it isn't worth anything to God. Actually, I should re-phrase that. Your "worked-out" righteousness is compared to a filthy rags. I've always understood this to mean that in God's eyes it is filthy and disgusting and going to be discarded.
He is able to separate us from our works. Isn't that amazing? That is something that we as humans cannot do, either to ourselves, or eachother.
Quote from: captamajora on March 15, 2008, 01:34:24 AM
Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2008, 01:24:45 AM
Anyhow, far be it from me to try to tell others what to do with their time. As for me, I will spend my time shedding as much sin as possible.
Well, I wish you the best with that...
I assume that by shedding your sin, you are becoming more righteous?
By becoming more "righteous", I assume you are becoming more worthy?
No matter how "righteous" you may become, it isn't worth anything to God. Actually, I should re-phrase that. Your "worked-out" righteousness is compared to a filthy rags. In God's eyes it is filthy and disgusting and going to be discarded.
He is able to separate us from our works. Isn't that amazing? That is something that we as humans cannot do, either to ourselves, or eachother.
Well I am not working out my righteousness, I am trying to live better, because thats what I want to do. I have no works to list, I do not have Gods Holy Spirit, and I am not a Christian. But I still choose to live my life in a battle with my sin, because I don't like the sin. And I like doing something about it. And I know you may think I am a filthy rag to God, but what you think about me is meaningless.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2008, 01:53:11 AM
And I know you may think I am a filthy rag to God, but what you think about me is meaningless.
Hmmm...Wow.
Absolutely Not. You are not a filthy rag.
Didn't you even read what I just wrote?
"He is able to separate us from our works. Isn't that amazing? That is something that we as humans cannot do, either to ourselves, or eachother."
This means, by definition, that you are NOT a filthy rag.
Hey, if it makes you feel good to think that you are contributing in some way, so be it.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2008, 01:53:11 AM
....but what you think about me is meaningless.
Well, it seems that this debate is becoming personal (from your end), so it is probably best to leave it at that...
[quote author=captamajora
"
Hey, if it makes you feel good to think that you are contributing in some way, so be it.
Quote
It certainly does make me feel good if I am contributing in some way.
Quote
Well, it seems that this debate is becoming personal (from your end), so it is probably best to leave it at that...Quote.
Well I do take it personal when someone trys to dictate the terms of Gods word to me, I then in turn let them know how I think about it.
But I can take or leave conversation, it makes no difference to me.
Peace.
[/quote]
[quote author=Mickiel link=topic=2304.msg23255#msg23255 date=1205541771
Well I do take it personal when someone trys to dictate the terms of Gods word to me, I then in turn let them know how I think about it.
[/quote]
As I have let you know what I think of the "terms" that you have dictated to me.
I have shared my views, just as you have shared yours. You have misunderstood me if I came off as dictating anything to you. This is certainly not what I was meaning by any of this. I was just trying to engage in a thoughtful debate.
We shared our thoughts. If I was dictating to you, then you were certainly dictating to me...because we exchanged our thoughts.
Anyways, this conversation has become stagnant...
Take care...
This conversation reminds me of the old TV preacher Gene Scott. Does anyone remember him? His message was similar to what is being said here. He would sit there preaching grace with a martini in one hand and smoking a cigar in the other saying that if he did one thing to work out righteousness then he was frustrating the grace of God.
This shows a very immature view of righteousness in my humble opinion. The Bible speaks both of righteousness which is imputed through faith in Jesus Christ when we get saved and the righteous fruit that should follow as we work out that salvation with fear and trembling. Here is how the balance is made in Ephesians:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Too many who do not like Christians to have any responsibility for their life miss the balance by stopping before the thought is completed in verse 10. It is true that we are saved and made righteous by grace through faith without any good works of our own. However, once we have been made righteous by faith as Christians, God should be working out that righteousness unto good works. The question is do we have a part in that "worked out" righteousness after we are saved as Mickiel suggests. Let's look at what the same Holy Spirit wrote through the same apostle Paul who was the one who gave the revelation of righteousness by faith without works.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Does anyone really believe that Paul was concerned about losing his salvation if he did not keep his body under submission? No, but he desired to be an Overcomer and partake in the first resurrection. He did not doubt that he was already made worthy to partake in the general resurrection of all, but he knew that the Overcomers would be raised first if they were not considered castaways for this priviledge.
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
John
This is a little off topic so excuse me. I read something in another thread and was going to comment but didn't and now, Kratos you have said something that has made me think about it all over again, so I'm going to go ahead and share my thoughts. PLEASE keep in mind, Kratos, I am NOT talking about you or trying to make you out to be something you are not. This is more of a general observation that was sparked yet again, this time by something you said that I can't even remember now. For me, the thought of trying to achieve some sort of "special status" makes me feel a little ill. I see so many that do this. and I do not understand it at all.
I think sometimes when man constantly dwells on the :icon_king: :icon_queen: they think they will become over others who have not heard of Jesus or those who turn away from Jesus... I think that this causes them to not FULLY LOVE their enemies. Because it gives them something of an escape route for them to feel "better than" their enemies. In other words, if people think they will be reigning over their enemies in some life to come... or that they may have a little bit shinier of a crown they do not become humble enough to truly L-O-V-E their enemies, or their perceived enemies, rather. If you think that you are no better than your neighbor, that God loves your enemies as much as He loves you... then it's a little harder to love your enemies. But going through that fire of learning to LOVE, I mean... actually LOVING your enemies....it's such a wonderful thing when you arrive at the other side of it. Man, this is the LOVE that God is talking about...
Anyway, back to what I was talking about, it just doesn't sit well with me... all of this :bgdance: :bgdance: :gangel: over being :icon_king: :icon_queen: in some millenial reign. I prefer to think of everyone as being the same. No matter what they have learned in this life, or what God has led them to in this life... we who believe, are partaking of something heavenly already in this life. Why do we ALSO get some sort of "special status" in the life to come? If there is some sort of so-called "special status" fine, whatever. But I just can't sit here and be all :bgdance: :bgdance: over something like that. It just doesn't feel right. I say, let the ones who did not see the truth in this life on earth... let them discover God's love and let THEM have some sort of privilege of "reigning".... It's been enough of a blessing for me to know that God loves us ALL ..... while going through this earthly schoolground, it's enough of a blessing to just KNOW with all of my heart that God LOVES us ALL.... and everything is going to be ok.
I remember a long time ago thinking about the rapture theory (where Jesus comes and all of those people who had faith in Jesus go flying up in the air to meet him..) I remember thinking that even IF that were true, people had it wrong. The people who would go flying up in the air to meet Jesus are the ones who didn't KNOW Jesus. The ones "left behind" to witness this "rapture" were those who already had faith in Jesus. They would be the ones who wouldn't be scared.... The "scared" ones would be the ones to meet Jesus in the air, first. Because we'd all be ok... y'know what I mean? Not knowing Jesus in this earthly lifetime.... is... well, to be blunt...hellish.
I don't know maybe I'm way off base here with this whole "those who will reign with Christ" but I just see too many times, people talking about their special status.... and it just... doesn't sit right.
and quite honestly makes me feel queasy.
Back to the topic...
I am not sitting here smoking a cigar and talking about grace.
I'm sitting here... reflecting on LOVE... and seeing LIFE in the path that God shows us to walk.
Sin has no REIGN over me.
Sin is DEAD.
I REFUSE... REFUSE to ALLOW sin to have any sort of power in my life. Sin is powerless.
The only time sin has power is when mankind tries to BREATHE LIFE into it....
I find it somewhat sad that people see death and ugliness in a subject that should bring life and light.
Freedom is not scary.
Freedom is not a threat. WHEN....
WHEN... your heart is in the right place...
When you realize what sin is.
and what LOVE is.
Think about that for awhile and maybe you will understand a little better.
People give sin FAR too much credit and FAR, FAR, FAR too much power.
We should know better than that...
Jesus came to show us the way.
The life.
The light.
It's not that hard.
We have a great teacher.
Are we going to forsake Him?
Forsake his teachings?
because we want to keep turning back around, picking up that dead thing called sin and trying to do CPR on it and breathe life into it? Why? For what? Talk about a lesson in futility.
LOVE is the most powerful thing in this universe.
God is LOVE.
Sin is dead.
When are we going to start believing this and having Faith in this?
and living it?
peace,
sparrow
:cloud9: That's probably because the "special status" has been incorrectly taught thru a flesh mentality instead of the mind of Christ. It is NOT the people who have the "special status", except as a fully submitted vessel (read dead to self here) for CHRIST IN THEM, the hope of GLORY, to manifest thru, as in the manifestation of the sons of God. It's Christ in full manifestation with the Father, as a many membered body son of God in this dispensation, returning as He said He would, in the "clouds", plural. But instead of being clouds without water as Jude speaks of, these clouds are to be full of the water of the Spirit, not just having a portion or earnest of the Spirit anymore.
And the only thing they are to reign over is the darkness that first (judgment begins in the house of the Lord, whose house we are) bound them, and then the darkness that keeps the rest of creation bound, which is what the rod of authority is for, as Moses, whose name means deliverer, so aptly demonstrated under the hand of God.
And very simply, if all were already appropriated that was provided for us thru the Son, then the walking "dead" would have resurrected in the glory and power of the Son, with full MANIFESTATION. Full manifestation requires the Father's approval and participation, for you can't have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son. That it is not here yet, is evident, but it's close. Blessings to all....
I hope it's close, in the sense that I will suddenly see the sons of God everywhere, because I am on my last nerve with the evil in this world. I'm like this person--
Jeremiah 4:31
For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
Neither do I have any interest in any more tribulation. I'm sick to death of it! I want Jesus in this world now, in his many membered body!
Hi Cardinal.... :girlheart:
:cloud9: Hey there! And so do I on the closeness, and so am I on my last nerve with the evil. I am tired.........
Quote from: Kratos on March 15, 2008, 05:28:59 AM
This conversation reminds me of the old TV preacher Gene Scott. Does anyone remember him? His message was similar to what is being said here. He would sit there preaching grace with a martini in one hand and smoking a cigar in the other saying that if he did one thing to work out righteousness then he was frustrating the grace of God.
This shows a very immature view of righteousness in my humble opinion
LOL...that is me exactly!
Except I am sitting at the computer, snorting cocaine while going back and forth to my favorite porn site! Oh yeah, once in a while I awaken from from drug-induced lascivious daze long enough to shout obscenities in my family's face while I punch them in the stomach.
Gene Scott's got nothing on me. I am really making grace ABOUND!
You guys are too funny...
"In your humble opinion"? Why would an overcomer be so humble? You are rightfully earning your reward, right?
"The gift of God is aionian life." Those who receive life at the first resurrection and have life through the aions receive it because it is a gift.
Like I said, you should check out Martin Zenders' talk on what it means to be an "overcomer."
Quote from: sparrow on March 15, 2008, 05:55:40 AM
For me, the thought of trying to achieve some sort of "special status" makes me feel a little ill. I see so many that do this. and I do not understand it at all.
Ughhh...Me too! I'm dry heaving as I type!
Quote from: sparrow on March 15, 2008, 05:55:40 AM
I think that this causes them to not FULLY LOVE their enemies. Because it gives them something of an escape route for them to feel "better than" their enemies.
Not only this, but FEAR begins to creep in again. Not a fear of being lost, but a fear of...missing out on the first resurrection.
"What if I am not overcoming enough to be included in the first resurrection?!!"
Fear, self-doubt, guilt, judgement, etc, all creep in again.
Sparrow, maybe we need to start the "immature view of righteousness" thread...
It's funny you should use the term "immature". Didn't Jesus say that we should be as little children?
Card and Molly,
I echo your sentiments. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Every time the truth of Overcoming is brought up, there will be those who filter this truth through the only reason they can see for someone desiring to rule and reign with Christ. It is all about a lack of love and wanting to control others.
Would anyone like to accuse Jesus of lacking love or not loving His enemies because He knew He was destined to rule with His Father in His throne?
How can anyone with a heart not look out at all of the hate and murder and rape and famine and war and not want God's Kingdom to come in manifestation on the earth? I groan within me waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God. Not because I want to be one, but because this is the way that Jesus is comng to establish His Kingdom and I too am weary waiting for it. Not for me only, but for all of the children of God who have been subject to this futility.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
John
Captamajora, Now, go ahead and make more fun of the scriptures or just avoid them like the last time.
Quote from: Kratos on March 15, 2008, 07:23:59 AM
Captamajora, Now, go ahead and make more fun of the scriptures or just avoid them like the last time.
I am not making fun of the scriptures!
I am making fun of you insinuating that I believe this so that I have an excuse to be as sinful as I want. That is the epitome of assumption.
You have judged me and you are dead wrong.
Just to let you guys know: I strive to be a better person all of the time. I believe in temperance in all things. I treat everyone the way that I want to be treated.
I do this because it is right and because there is a drive within me to do so (and more all of the time)!
I don't strive for any particular reward or fear that I will lose any particular reward. WIth the reward/punishment system come a whole host of problems...
Captamajora,
You are assuming too much. I said that making fun lf Mickiel trying to live holy as if it adds anything to his salvation reminds me of Gene Scott. Yet, like I said about the pure seeing all things pure, you thought I was accusing you of drinking and smoking. A huge quantum leap and an assumption.
Now, if you want to be honest about the subject, address the scriptures about works that follow salvation and Paul running the race by keeping his body under submission instead of manuvering out by claiming to have been judged.
You can just admit that you were wrong and that the Bible does speak of Overcomers and working out our salvation after we are saved. Speaking down to Mickiel for trying to walk worthy of the Lord is not right.
John
Kratos...
I just don't even know what to say.
You are projecting and hinting at a lot of stuff...
and it ain't pretty.
Stop trying to twist people's words.
Maybe you don't realize you're doing it, brother but you are doing it.
sparrow
Quote from: Kratos on March 15, 2008, 07:36:00 AM
Speaking down to Mickiel for trying to walk worthy of the Lord is not right.
I was not speaking down to him. I'm sorry if it came off that way. My apologies.
Wait...Are you telling me that Mickiel is not worthy of the Lord right now? There is something that he can do to make himself more worthy?
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
I think that this relates to the idea of causing others "to stumble." We don't necessarily do these things for ourselves, we do them for others.
Paul brought up the same thing about meat sacrificed to demon gods. He said that you could eat of it freely, EXCEPT if it should cause your neighbor to stumble because his faith isn't as strong.
Take this example. I do not become drunk because If I do then people will think that my beliefs promote drunkeness. I don't get drunk because I don't want to cause others to stumble about what I believe. Not only would they miss what I was trying to say, but they might become an alcoholic and destroy their liver (which would be a shame).
Anyways, Paul said "Everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial."(1COR 10:20) You have to think more of how what you do will affect others than how it will affect yourself.
As far as overcoming is concerned, you are forgetting the fact that aionian life (which is given to overcomers) is a GIFT of God. How do you earn a gift?
If you are trying to qualify yourself for something, than there can't be a lot of focus on others.
I need to listen to that audio again sometime. He explained it very well. It's been a long time since I've heard it.
ok, I turned out my light and was going to bed but had to come back.
All right, Kratos, maybe I need to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
Maybe you really are just not seeing what folks are trying to say.
It's like a group of people are talking about let's say.... crossing the street.
Group A is saying "best way to not get hit by a car is to look both ways before crossing the street."
Group B says "getting hit by a car is really bad. we should be vigilant about not getting hit by cars!!!!"
Group A says "yeah...so, y'know... you just need to look both ways before crossing..."
Group B says "so you don't think we need to WORRY about getting hit by cars? Cars are everywhere! how dare you say we don't need to worry about it! We are trying to stay alive!"
Group A says "yeah...so, y'know... you just need to look both ways before crossing..."
Group B says "this is horrible! I can't believe you want people to NOT CARE about getting hit by cars! You are immature and don't know the first thing about cars and not getting hit by them"
Group A says... " :mshock: "
That is what this thread is making me feel like.
I'm in Group A, by the way.
peace to you guys,
sparrow
Sparrow,
Peace to you, too, and sleep well.
John
Quote from: Kratos on March 15, 2008, 07:52:28 AM
Sparrow,
Peace to you, too, and sleep well.
John
:thanks: :lazy:
Captamajora,
I do not see that Paul could be talking about not offending others. He specifically said that he was concerned that he would be a castaway if he did not keep his body under submission.
Yes, aionian life will eventually come to all and all will serve the Lord. But, Jesus said a lot about faithful and wicked servants. What we do after we are saved does matter.
Would you tell me why Jesus is speaking to the 7 churches so all have aionian life, but he promises things to those who Overcome among these churches in Rev. 2 and 3?
John
Quote from: Kratos on March 15, 2008, 07:57:23 AM
Yes, aionian life will eventually come to all and all will serve the Lord. But, Jesus said a lot about faithful and wicked servants. What we do after we are saved does matter.
No, all don't aionian life. I guess I made an assumption here, sorry. I assumed you knew what the term "aion" means. It relates to the ages.
There will be a group of people that will be granted life during the upcoming ages.
It is not until the end of the ages, at the consummation, that everyone will be given life.
The life given to the mass of humanity at the consummation is never referred to a gift (at least not that I have seen). The gift is actually aionian life (life during the upcoming ages.)
Please read about the meaning of the word aion. There are some articles on the main site.
I'm exhausted and I have to catch a flight tomorrow. I must bid farewell for the evening.
Sleep tight...
An interesting subject to say the least. I must admit that I may well be at a disadvantage seeing that I am not Christian, that I do not have Gods Holy Spirit or his calling. So do I live the way that I do because I am trying to " Earn these things or be worthy of them", no, I understand enough about the bible to know that those things cannot be earned, they are given, for reasons that have nothing to do with human effort. So I only can speak from the point of view that I am presently in; a sinner who agrees with God, and thus accepts the bibles explinations about how we should live. And I am going to keep trying to live that way until God decides to call me to him. Oh it would be nice to have his Spirit inside of me, doing all the living for me, but such is not my experience. I don't know God, but I think his ways are right.
So I am doing all the things that I can do, until the time comes that " I" am taken out of the way and God introduces himself to me. Then it will be no longer "I", but him that dwells in me. But until that occurs, I will continue to fight the good fight of trying to Overcome sin, I cannot say the good fight of Faith, because I have no Faith. Now why am I doing that? Its not to make myself worthy by my own righteousness, because I have no righteousness, I am doing it simply because I believe it, I believe God is right. I don't need Gods Holy Spirit to stop getting drunk, or to stop lying or to stop mistreating people and myself. I don't need Gods Holy Spirit to stop stealing or stop fornicating, do you know how many people have stopped doing these things and know nothing about God? Why were they able to stop? Because they saw the need and agreed with the " Principle" and accepted no other answer for themselves. And they Overcame their problem.
Now what is the difference when now God is in the Picture? If the person trying to change is a believer in God, oh does that mean they must now stop trying to live right, and just stand on the principles of God, and wait for some kind of " Spiritual Baptism" that will infuse them with all kinds of things, and then it is now their God doing it, thus we are now " Safe", God receives the Glory , so I have not committed the cardional sin of " Trying to help myself." Oh so now the people of God cannot help themselves because that " Robs God of his Glory?" If I say no to sin, does that somehow mean I am " Trying to make myself worthy", I have crossed the line and must now repent of getting too involved in my own life with God?
This is one reason I do not have anything to do with groups and churchs, I don't see it that way. When God decides to call me, " If" he does, he will find me trying to live the ways that are right. Not trying to " Qualify", or make myself worthy, but SIMPLY because I see his ways as the right thing to do. And if he helps me, then fine, he can have all the Glory, I am not in this for Glory. If he does not help me, then I am still going to try and live his ways because I think its the right thing to do. I just happen to agree with his ways.
And I don't need to wait on him to baptise me with his Spirit, and just stupidly let this Sin just keep jumping all over me, just because some of his people have these ways of interpiting his word. I got enough sense to fight. I am ashamed to admit it, but one thing I know how to do is fight. I am going to fight this sin until God comes into my life and begins a fellowship with me. And it does not matter to me what the " Spiritual People" think about this.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2008, 02:23:49 PM
An interesting subject to say the least. I must admit that I may well be at a disadvantage seeing that I am not Christian, that I do not have Gods Holy Spirit or his calling. So do I live the way that I do because I am trying to " Earn these things or be worthy of them", no, I understand enough about the bible to know that those things cannot be earned, they are given, for reasons that have nothing to do with human effort.
Hi Mickiel. Yes I agree.
Anyways, this whole thread is re-hashing of an argument that has been going on for 2000 years. It has been debated a million times and will be debated a million more. Look up Law vs Grace and begin reading. Look up law mixed with grace and start reading.
There is LAW and there is GRACE. THe two are mutually exclusive. They are oil and water. They do NOT mix.
I believe the point was (and Jesus heavily emphasized this with the beatitudes) is that if you have to look to the law to know what to do or to know what is right, or follow just because it is the law (and miss the Spirit behind the law) then you missed the whole sha-bang!
Like I said, this is an argument that has been going on since the crucifixion.
People would ask Paul, "Does that mean we sin more so that we will have more grace?"
Of course not...Even Paul had a hard time explaining it, so it is not going to come easy.
Take care buddy!
Quote
Hi Mickiel. Yes I agree.
Anyways, this whole thread is re-hashing of an argument that has been going on for 2000 years. It has been debated a million times and will be debated a million more. Look up Law vs Grace and begin reading. Look up law mixed with grace and start reading.
There is LAW and there is GRACE. THe two are mutually exclusive. They are oil and water. They do NOT mix.
I believe the point was (and Jesus heavily emphasized this with the beatitudes) is that if you have to look to the law to know what to do or to know what is right, or follow just because it is the law (and miss the Spirit behind the law) then you missed the whole sha-bang!
Like I said, this is an argument that has been going on since the crucifixion.
People would ask Paul, "Does that mean we sin more so that we will have more grace?"
Of course not...Even Paul had a hard time explaining it, so it is not going to come easy.
Take care buddy!
Well with me, the subject has nothing to do with law and grace, it has to do with the way some believers are interpiting the word of God with " Their Standards of understanding." And when the subject of overcomming comes up, and its compared to law and grace, such a comparrison should never be made in the first place. Its sickening to me, and I had to repent yesterday, because it angers me when believers try and do this. Its almost as if some believers are so scared of not giving God the Glory, that they go to extremes in order to give him the Glory. They go overboard in giving him the credit, and in this manner they feel " Safe", they have met the requirements of not giving themselves any glory. A kind of " Mental invalid", they now have become totally submissive to God because they view him as doing it all!
Kind of like, " God, be my eyes, my mind, my feet, my mate, my very life." Be my forgiveness of Sin, be my erasing of sin to the point I won't even consider my sin any more. Brush my teeth God, wash my dishes, mow my grass, just be my all in all, and take out my grabage while your at it. I am not against people who think like this, but their standards of righteousness will be extreme, and extreme in both directions. They either will take you too far to the right, and impose strict Pharisitical standards of Righteousness, or take you far to the left and tell you that you don't have to worry about your sin or even try to overcome them. I don't like views like this, or people who stress them. They either overburden people, or decrease their abilities. They either decrease what God expects, or try to take more than what God has given.
Just because you believe in God, does not mean you now have to become retarded to sin, as if only God can do something about the sin in your life. God is not rasing up a group of people who are so dependant on him that they can do nothing for themselves. You don't become submissive to God by becomming Spiritually Stupid and helpless.
Let me say something here., If I was a demon who was looking to interfere with a believers mind and life, one of the finest ways to get a believer to STOP dealing with their sins, STOP trying to grow and improve, is to use the bible to show them that they don't have to worry about those things. Christ has done it all for you, stop trying to do this and that, just don't do nothing! Just live as if nothing is going on in your lust and deciet. Don't worry about your lying and smoking, just leave it in Gods hands. Your forgiven, you have been given a get out of jail free card. You can't make yourself worthy, your " Works" are filthy rags. This a is pathological demonic approach that has spread deeply into the consciousness of believers, and I view it as one of the greatest demonic successes that I am aware of. It has dulled the edge of many believers abilities. It has damped the thirst of many.
Anyway, thats just how I see this.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2008, 04:24:45 PM
You don't become submissive to God by becomming SPIRITUALLY STUPID and helpless.
A kind of " MENTAL INVALID"...
you now have to become RETARDED to sin
This a is PATHOLOGICAL DEMONIC approach
Anyway, thats just how I see this.
Wow. You have TOTALLY missed my point. I mean COMPLETELY. Are you even reading what I am writing?
I am really sorry that you feel the need to hurl insults at me. You appear have no idea of how to discuss and issue and politely disagree with respect and courtesy.
I am no longer going to engage in this conversation. Thanks for showing me how you see it...
I love my husband with a pure, strong love.
Do I need a little card with me to carry around that tells me:
- Don't look at other men with lustful eyes.
- Don't go to strip clubs.
- Don't sleep with other men.
- Don't spread lies about your husband.
- Don't scream and yell and cuss at your husband.
- Don't disrespect your husband.
- Don't hit your husband with a shoe.
Of course not. I L-O-V-E my husband with a pure, strong love. We've been together for 17 years, and some of the points on that card I DID need years ago.... (Don't hit your husband with a shoe. Don't scream and yell at your husband..). I DID need the law back then, but now if someone were to hand me a card like that I would laugh.My God! My God! I would lay down my life for my husband and he would lay down his life for me. This I know with absolute certainty. Of COURSE I don't need a card that tells me not to hurt my husband. Some will say... "Well, you should keep looking at the points on that card to make sure you don't stumble!" Brother, I don't N-E-E-D that card. LOVE has replaced the NEED for that card.
Just like LOVE has replaced the NEED for the LAW. God has written the law in our hearts.
If you still need that card, if you still need the law hovering over your head.... ok, y'know that's fine. Everyone has a different path to walk. Everyone is on their own path. And no-one is better than anyone else. We are ALL brothers and sisters here, no-one can boast of ANYTHING. We all know that, correct? So if a sister is at a place on her path where she is saying..."Hey, brothers and sisters... I have seen the light. Sin does not rule in my life! Come, look here! Look at what God has done in my life. Look at this little gem He has shown me. Look at the wonderful life and light that He is SHOWING US! LOVE conquers. Love is the only thing that ever CONQUERS anything in this world." Then, don't shoot a sister down or be resentful or fearful, or annoyed, or put your walls up around you in light of what this sister is sharing. Don't focus on yourself and think "NO! This isn't correct because I still need to examine and look at the law to make sure everything is ok and that I'm ok and that I'm living my life in accordance with God" I mean, you can do that if you want... But if something doesn't seem right to you NOW, you cannot say that it won't seem right to you in the future. That's how revelation works, no?
A lot of us didn't understand or think that UR was really correct.... remember....
peace to you all.
Sin hurts.
God doesn't want us to hurt.
God wants us to LOVE.
LOVE is a verb.
Love is everything.
LOVE is what allows sin to CEASE ruling over you.
Just like my husband... when we were first together, I thought my love for him was the strongest love EVER in the world. Oh... no, no, no. It was love all right, but it was NO agape love. That's for sure. And that's why I DID need the law... I did need that little card. But now, after all of these years, after my love has grown into pure agape love, I have no need for that little card. I don't need a law telling me not to sleep with another man. The thought would never even ENTER INTO MY MIND. I laugh at a card like that. I laugh.
because I can.
My love is THAT strong.
And God's love is infinitely stronger.
If sin rules in your universe... lean back into Him more.
That is your cue.
That LOVE is not ruling in your universe.
Do I sin? you are probably asking yourselves this right now. "Does sparrow think that she doesn't sin, anymore?!" I lead as clean a life as sparrow-ly possible. I won't tell you what I do or don't do. But it's a clean life. Do I sink into little petty things such as jealousy? or having wrong motives in my heart? YES! I do. But as soon as I do it, it cuts me. It causes a stab in my heart and I know God is pinching me say... sparrow...what you doing there, little bird? Is that love? Are you leaning back into ME? Or are you leaning back into yourself here.... Go! SIN NO MORE!
and I scamper off with my tailfeathers between my legs and answer "Yes, Father..."
I don't waste time examining and re-examining sin. If I stumble, I get the point quickly and move on to better things...
Like I said before... we are all on our own paths. and we are all brothers and sisters and I so look forward to the day when we can all meet face to face and know each other for real. For who we are really to become. How amazing... when you think of it... that one day we will KNOW each other... "Mickiel... Kratos...capta majora...!!!!!! MY GOD! remember when we were on earth, typing away on those little archaic stone-age computer things trying to get each other to understand each other?!! LOOK where we are now!! Isn't this WONDERFUL!" :grin: I long for the day...
until then,
peace to you brothers and sisters..
It's ok if we don't always truly understand each other.
It's ok. It's not that important.
The most important thing is LOVE (God is Love) and allowing it (Him) to rule in your life.
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
Exaclty!
Beautiful post.
Captamajora,
I think you continue to miss what Mickiel and I are saying, but whatever. I am not a baby in the Lord as you seem to think by pointing out such basics. I preached my first message on Law vs Grace well over 20 years ago and fully understand the difference.
What you do not seem to understand is the difference between works of the Law that preceed salvation or are used to appear righteous before God and the good works that follow salvation as a fruit of having been saved. In other words, the difference between thinking that our righteousness before God is based on our works verses faith which is dead without works as taught through James.
I started this conversation with Eph. 2:8-10 pointing out that we are not saved or righteous with God by means of our good works, but we are His workmanship created unto good works after we are saved.
We become Overcomers by working out our own salvation (this means that the salvation that we have received in Christ is working itself out of us to produce good works as a fruit of God in us).
Why don't you tell me what it means when God admonishes us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and how that relates to your passive view of running the race so as to receive the prize as Paul mentioned? Then, maybe we can get somewhere.
John
Quote from: captamajora on March 15, 2008, 04:46:32 PM
Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2008, 04:24:45 PM
You don't become submissive to God by becomming SPIRITUALLY STUPID and helpless.
A kind of " MENTAL INVALID"...
you now have to become RETARDED to sin
This a is PATHOLOGICAL DEMONIC approach
I am really sorry that you feel the need to hurl insults at me. You appear have no idea of how to discuss and issue and politely disagree with respect and courtesy.
I am no longer going to engage in this conversation. Thanks for showing me how you see it...
I didnot say you were these things, I didnot hurl insults at you, I hurled examples at you of what I think following God does NOT mean. I never said you are a demon or stupid, I said I do not view the following of God as something that seems to make people retarded to the things that they can be involved in doing. In my view of this thing, its not a Law vs. Grace approach at all, its a process that we can actively be involved in, share in and be a part of. At least thats how I am comming into this thing with God. This thing of ours. I am not being impolite, I am being as I was before I met you, just as direct as I can be about it. I don't know you, and I have no need to insult you, neither do I have a need to convince you of anything. When you are strong in how you voice things, it does not bother me, what bothers me is the message and meaning you are trying to convey.
I use to box, and I have never met a trainer who would put a fighter in the ring, but first told him that the battle is already won, they have no need to fight. If they did, they were just going to send them out there to get their rump kicked or watch them take a dive. Serving God is simular to me. Christ was sent to master our Salvation and secure it, not to fight our battles for us, but be with us " As we fight." Fight for what, the battle is already won? So we fight to build our own characther, build our own muscle, develop our own minds and grow in our own experiences. Jesus was not sent to experience our Lives for us, but to help enrich our Lives, not do every little thing for us. If Jesus did everything for us, that is creating the " Invilids" I spoke of, let me do some things myself, I want to be involved also.
Let me get dirty, let me sweat and suffer, let me bear the cross " With you Lord", you need not bear it alone. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever with a Law vs. Grace discussion. Although I agree I am not as graced in discussing matters as most here are, I am just not a people person, but I do not try and tear the person down, only what I view as " Dangerous reasonings", not I do admit to sometimes going hard after that kind of stuff.
I view it as a serious " Handicap", this notion of a believer not having to Overcome. Its creating a very passive approach to things that believers should energectically approach, and using scripture to create this passive laid back ideal of " Works". Works has nothing to do with Overcomming Sin. I don't think people know what the bible means by " Works." Works are things like Preaching and Teaching, dicipleship and Eldering. Leadership and Church development, visting the sick and praying for others, fellowship and all the things that one would " DO FOR OTHERS", in the name of God. Overcomming is " Personal Involvement", its what you are doing for yourself, for your walk with God, for your mind and your personal Life.
Look at 2 Corinth. 1:4," Who comforts us in all of our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort others." That is " Work", that is the work of God, what you are doing for others, Overcomming is what you are doing for yourself, and BOTH are active participation. Now if a brother is confused and thinks that he is " Working" to obtain Salvation, then he is just confused, The work is something to do so that others will benefit from it. Benefit what, Salvation, no, no, benefit them in a manner that will help them to Overcome their sins and better understand God. Salvation is already theirs, but even the right kind of help benefits Salvation in that it helps the person understand their Salvation much more. Look at vs.6, " But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and Salvation." Does this mean one must be afflicted to obtain Salvation? No, No, it means affliction helps one to better understand their salvation.
Overcomming Sin does not give you Salvation, it helps you to be a participant in Gods Plan, it benefits you as an individual, helps your own strength, your own mind, your own house, your own personality, your own self. But one thing you will begin to notice as you work on yourself, it actually places you in a better position to help others, because you remove the beam out of your own eye, now you can better serve others.
Peace.
I want to be sure that the effort to make this an arguement about Law and Grace is properly deflected, because this issue is no such thing. This is about how much you are involved in your calling and your Salvation. And this issue has two ways of looking at it, not Law and Grace, but before and after. Remember that, this is really about before and after. Salvation and the calling of God are things that God has " Done", which are already predetermined and our individual response or opinions have nothing to do with what has been done. Before God gave humanity Salvation, we didnot even exist, the earth itself didnot exist. Salvation was planned with no human in sight and no human opinion at the table.
The Plan was a " Finished Plan", but Jesus had to Live in the Plan, because the Plan involved him becomming a human, dying and being resurrected. So although it was a predetermined sealed deal of the century for humanity, it was a living, dying Plan, meaning Jesus had to interject his Life and Death into the Plan, in order to complettely finish it. So the finished plan had a before and after effect to it, meaning it was a finished plan that required Jesus to be ACTIVELY INVOLVED in it. And our Salvation is no different. We too have a finished plan offered to us, but we must live and die "in " this active dynamic plan. Although our Salvation is a finished sealed event, we still must actively " Live out " the plan, and in this manner we are given the opportunity to grow in Grace and Knowledge, which Means to Overcome our experiences with the flesh, life and sin. Learn from it, benefit from it, be challanged by it, enriched by it, engulfed by it.
Now , here is the before and after effect. Before God chooses you, he calls you. He will change the awareness of your mind. He will " Open things" in your heart and understanding. You are going to respond to that stimuli, just as you would respond to any stimuli that enters your life and mind. Now let me use myself as an example, I can safely talk about myself and not hurt my feelings in the conversation. Some time ago, and the day and hour is of absolutely no importance whatsoever, God pricked my mind, made me aware of certain things. He has done nothingelse to me since then. He has not given me his Spirit, not made me born again, not placed his kingdom within, not did anythingelse to me other than to prick my mind and gave me a certain awareness. That was it. It was not a booming voice, not a small still voice, not a verbal communication at all. It was not a life changeing event, not a hughe moment in my life that I will never forget, I don't even remember the day he did it, it just slowly developed within my mind. And he has done nothingelse to me since then. But the Awareness has grown yearly.
Now God did this to me. Now heres my situation. I can either wait for God to do somethingelse to me, and live in any manner that I so choose, or I can focus on the Spiritual issues in my life and he find me doing that when he comes. Now I know many of other peoples situations are different, many claim to have Gods Spirit now, are born again now, have the Kingdom within them now, well I can't speak from that perspective, that experience is not mine, I have never experienced that reality. My reality is that I must now Live without Gods Spirit, without being chosen, without having all that such things would offer me. In my present state, which is a " Before State", I would rather fight my sin, try to live right, try to obey God, just do my very best UNTIL he comes back to me to give me more than just a mind prick. But I am fighting that sin with a pretty good level of understanding that the plan of Salvation is finished, my Salvation is free, my destiny is preordained, and my efforts to Overcome my sin has absolutely NOTHING to do with my Salvation. Such a mindset cannot be accused of some kind of Law vs. Grace mentality, its just not possible. I am waiting on God to call and choose me, I can do whatever I want to do, I'm not even being Judged yet. Yet the foremost thing in my mind, is to live my best to please a God I don't even know.
Not please him to somehow seduce him into him calling me, but because I like this God the bible speaks up. I like the way God thinks, I want to think like that. I like what Jesus did and I would like to get to one day know him. So I am actively getting ready for that day. I'm taking absolutely no concern whatsoever about the believers who already know God, who say things like;" You can't get yourself ready without Gods help", you can't do anything of yourself, you can't earn an audiance with God, your trying to legalize a spiritual thing. I don't care about all that stuff, don't even think about it. I don't care what any of you say and think about this subject, I am going to do all I can to be ready for the second time does something to me. All than is in me is being invested in my life and living for this God who pricked my mind. Now I don't know whats going to happen to me if God decides to call and choose me, maybe my mind will change, I may start seeing things the way others do, I might become superman and sin will bounce off of me and become meaningless to me too.
But sin ain't bouncing off of me now, such is not my reality and existance. I got to deal with this monkey now, because this dog is biteing me now. I'm not immune to the kryptonite as some of you seem to be. God can come when he decides to, but I got to deal with this stuff now. This stuff burns, it hurts, I can't ignore this stuff as if its somehow not there.
Peace.
34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
--Mark 13
Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2008, 01:18:50 AM
34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
--Mark 13
A bueatiful scripture Molly, one that emcompases what I have been refering to. Jesus has left to each one " Work" to do, or something to " Do." Not something to do to earn a spot with him, but something to do, or achieve, for each one of us who are not " Sleeping", which certainly implys some kind of " Rest". When you consider just what is there to " Do" now for a believer, Overcomming your sins just fits right in there.
Well now one could argue that he meant " Other things" in his reference to " Work." Well , what things? Evangelizing is what some believe is the " Work of God", spending your time converting others or comvincing others to Christ. Evangelism is the popular interpitation of what the Work of God is. I disagree with that interpitation, although along with my disagreement, I don't consider Evangelism as an evil thing to be doing. Although I think it is misguided direction, human to human attempt to convert, I do not view it as a complette waste of time to try to help someone find God. I mean what have you got to loose? Does it anger God for people to try and lead someone to him? I doubt that, but eventually it barrells down to can the blind lead the blind? I think God has equipped his Holy Spirit enough to lead people to him as he so wills.
But the thing that Jesus did is to " Give us Authority to Work", which is permission to work on ourselves while we watch, or wait, for his return. There is the authority we have right there, or the responsibility, to " Work out our Salvation", which does not mean to qualify for it, its already a done deal, but the trails and tribulations that we must go through is not a done deal, we must now actively live out our lives with the time allotted to each of us. Jesus was given 30 years of " Living human Life", before his ministry even started. For what? To waste time and just wait until his time to preach and teach had come? What do you think he was doing for 30 years? He had not been baptised, not offically given the Holy Spirit, although he was conceived by it. He was never annointed by anyone of Gods Apostles, and he didnot start any kind of movement before he called his diciples. He spent that time " Overcomming." He was an exception , in that the sin he Overcame never existed within him, but it was always around him, such it is to be human, sin is ever present. Each time he denied sin from entering him, that was an act of Overcomming it, his battle with satan in Matt.4 was not his " Only battle with sin."
But Jesus " Overcame the World of Sin he faced." Thats what he spent his life doing, its exactly what a true believer in God must spend their life doing. He was not just bideing his time doing nothing. I think he may well have been teaching a lot of those years, since he did do some when he was 12. But he said it was time for him to go" Doing" about his Fathers business. Just what do you think the " Business of a believer is?" Oh how I would like to get into that, but I think I have said enough on this thread, I hold no wish to take it over.
Peace.
Quote from: Kratos on March 15, 2008, 06:43:55 PM
the difference between works of the Law that preceed salvation or are used to appear righteous before God and the good works that follow salvation as a fruit of having been saved...
...after we are saved
Why don't you tell me what it means when God admonishes us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...
Works that preceed salvation and works that occur after we are saved? So you actually think there was a time when you weren't saved?
See, I don't believe that there was a time that I wasn't saved. I and everyone else have always been saved, we just haven't always known that.
I would state it as works that occur after the realization of salvation. Salvation isn't a switch that was off and then all of a sudden was turned on. People aren't unsaved and then become saved. What happens is that they are given the TESTIMONY, each in their own order. They aren't saved in their own order, they are given the testimony that they are saved, each in their own order.
Like I said in another thread, a tree planted in the light will produce good fruit. It doesn't have to think about it. It doesn't have to battle, or struggle, or force itself to produce fruit...because it does it AUTOMATICALLY.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make to Mikiel, but he kept missing it. I was never condoning a lazy walk with God or intimating that one can live as sinfully as they want because all are saved. My point was missed terribly.
If you have to struggle, battle, scratch, kick and scream your way into a walk with God, then, IMO, you haven't been given the testimony of pure LOVE yet.
Those immersed in infinite love will automatically live in LOVE. They won't have to even think about it, just as the tree doesn't have to think about producing fruit- it just happens.
I was never saying "Do what you want." I was saying that if you have to think about how to live, then it is not coming naturally!
You shouldn't have to think about it or carry flash cards in your pocket. It just happens.
I guess that would be what you call the works (I would call "living") after the realization of God's infinite, unconditional LOVE (not those that proceed salvation).
As far as "fear and trembling" is concerned. I'm not sure what book of the Bible it is in but Paul told believers to greet Timothy with "fear and trembling". I don't think that this meant that they should cower and shake uncontrollably in his presence. It meant that they should show him respect and honor.
I believe that "our own salvtion" is our personal salvation that we receive through our knowledge of God on a daily basis. We should regard the salvation that we encounter every day with fear and trembling. Even though we have always been saved, each day that I think of it and realize it all over again and it affects my life each and every day. It renews me daily! It renews me and fills me with peace and comfort in the face of this terrible world. In that way, I continually respect and honor God for giving me this knowledge, and for saving me daily through this realization.
Quote from: captamajora on March 13, 2008, 04:55:20 PM
Somebody stated in another thread, "We are all on the cross right now..." This is similar to the ubiquitous Christian catch-phrase, "this is my cross to bear."
I always wondered, If we all have to bear and carry our own "cross", get up on our cross, and eventually DIE (on our cross)...then are the "wages" of sin being paid for TWICE?
The wages (cost) of sin is death. We say that through Jesus' suffering and death that He COMPLETELY paid for sin.
If death is the cost of sin, doesn't everyone who dies pay for sin? Don't be so quick to say "no."
The wages of sin is death.
If I should die, then I have paid the wages of sin.
Then we say that it was Jesus' sufferings and death that paid for sin. So, now suffering is part of the payment for sin.
Guess what...I suffer! I suffer and I will eventually die like billions of other people.
Jesus Christ suffered and died and completely paid for sin by suffering and dying while every person on earth has also suffered and died or will suffer and die.
Why does God demand that the penalty of sin be paid for twice?
We say that God no longer counts our sin against us. We say that since Jesus (who was faultless) died, we are completely without sin in God's eyes.
If God is no longer counting our sins against us, why does everyone have to pay the wages of sin? Why does God require us to pay the wages of sin when:
a.) sins have already been paid for and...
b.) sins are no longer being ascribed to us?
Some people say that the wages of sin is "eternal" death, i.e.- death without end (no resurrection). For one thing, the Bible never says anything about the wages of sin being permanent death. No duration is mentioned...just death.
If the wages of sin truly were permanent death, then Jesus did not completely pay for sin because He was not eternally dead. So, it is clear that the wages of sin is the state of death, duration being of no consequence. Jesus was dead for three days while others have been dead for 5,000+ years. You could add another million years to that and it doesn't change the fact that it isn't the duration but rather the "act" of succumbing to death, and therfore, being in the state of death.
If the wages of sin is death and the wages have already been paid for, then we should have NO death. We should have NO death right now! As we know, this comes later at the consummation, when death is abolished.
So, have our sins been paid for or not? They have but it hasn't been enacted yet? If someone wrotes a decree but the decree will only go into effect later, does the decree really exist now?
It the eradication of death validates the existance of this decree, and death has not been eradicated...does the decree exist in the present? Is the decree presently fulfilled?
I love it when people say "ALL is fulfilled!" Really? You must not have noticed but we are all still dying. Each one of us are still paying for sin. I guess they missed that somehow...
So, Jesus pays for our sins now by paying for them later, and after we've all paid the same penalty?
We are in the flesh, and we are not perfect. For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Since we do sin, we must still die, because the curse of Adam and Eve has not been lifted. We are saved by Grace through Christ. His Sacrifice allows ALL to be saved in the end. It ended any animal sacrifices any longer, and did away with the old law. He also had to die so others may live, again. If Christ had not resurrected Himself, then no one would ever live again in the next life. When He returns in the Second Coming, every Christian will be brought back to life, and later unbelievers. Since Christ was the atonement for sin, it is behind us. While sin still exists, it is wiped out, all sins of the world have been forgiven. We still live with the curse of death, though. And once we are all immortal and perfected after we have been born again into immortality, we will not be able to sin anymore, and sin will be done away with. Its all forgiven, that is what matters. Christ died to atone for sin, so that every human may be FORGIVEN. But, we still must die, 'for the wages of sin is death... but the Gift of God...'
Christ, was the ultimate atonement for sin, so we may be forgiven, while we still live with the curse of death due to original sin. Sins are all forgiven, Christ fullfilled the law, etc, but death will not be done away with until He returns, and niether will sin. But because He did die to atone for sin, it has been forgiven.