The God I Know

[jenna]

Actually, IMO, unbelief is what damages the capacity for reason. Many skeptics and atheists are so set in their ways, they are incapable of reasoning that there might actually be a creator God. They absolutely refuse to listen to others POV. :2c:

Well, that, Jenna, points up what I mean about damaged reason. Reason shows that there are too many unknowns for anyone to go further than the possibility of an intelligent Creator of some kind. Reason also questions whether the attempts of humans to contact this creator through prayer, meditation or the like produced anything but an internal effect.

Reason further wonders why it should matter and why one can't take a purely independent stance rather than sign up to some kind of faith.

Reason further looks at the supportive evidence (as i have done here) and find it at best, inconclusive, at worst downright wrong. But still repeated, sometimes after being shown up as not that good, as though it was good evidence. That's what I mean by damaged reason. 

So I'd say it is your stance that is unreasonable in the end and your partiality means that you cannot help but see the reasons as an unreasoning rejection of what to you is obvious, because you believe it. That's what I mean by damaged reason.

No, Trans, I am not going to say "Ha! I won!" This is a discussion forum, not a place for someone to get their nose rubbed in something. However, my stance is not unreasonable. I used to not believe in God either. However, it is reasoning that actually won out. Yes, it is obvious to me that God exists, but only because I was willing to open my mind to the possibility that He is real. Many atheists are unwilling, and so use false reasoning to uphold their theory that there cannot be a Creator. This is what damages the capacity for reasoning, the fact that they are so blind to reality that they cannot see the truth, or do not want to. Am I being partial? Maybe. But it is reasoning that brought me to where I am today.

[Reverend G]

Jenna is right.
For a person to base one's whole life only on scientific logic and reason is not to live.  Theoretically, one could not love.. it is irrational, one could not trust any living being, for if they have ever fibbed, how can you trust them?  More to the point, much of the world does not consider scientific logic and reason the be all end all of "truth".  Everyone sets limits as to what degree of "faith" they have in the world around them, some choose to limit it before they can trust in a creator. This is an arbitrary limit, that the vast majority of the world's population has not set for itself.  I personally believe a large number of atheists are afraid of admitting the possibility, so long as there is no God, they are totally in control of their lives.  Look around, nobody is really in total control.  So who is deluded?  Who has lost their sense of reason?

[CHB]

I am afraid to 'invite' Faith. It damages the capacity for reason.

Trans,

You have faith that you don't even recognize.   :bigGrin: When you get in your car, do you worry about getting where you are going safely? If not, then you have faith. When you go to bed are you scared to death that you won't wake up the next morning? If not, you have faith. Do you worry about your family any? If not, you have faith. Are you afraid to die? If not you have faith.

You see, there are positives and negatives. Positive thinking is an act of faith, negative thinking is a lack of faith. Do you think negative all the time?

CHB

I shall assume that you haven't read any refutations of this logical fallacy, though I suppose there have been some here.

I already know what they are without reading them.

The fallacy is equivocation - faith (through experience) with faith belief through personal beliefs; that is faith through evidence against faith without and in spite of evidence. I know I'm going to die sometime - maybe tomorrow. I could worry about it, but all I can do is to try to see I'm in good health.

Why worry about your health? Lack of faith?  What difference does it make whether you are in good health or not, we all are going to die anyway? Do you think it will make you live longer. {Faith}

Argument from Positive thinking is also a rhetorical trick. Let me show you how. Take your salary and place it on a horse. What? You don't want to risk it? Negative thinking. 

Lack of faith {negative} that the horse will win and I lose my money.

The fact that that is quite a sensible rejection of long odds against severe financial damage (1)is no less so for being open to having the 'negative' label pinned to it.

You refuse to take drugs? Negative CHB.

No, that is a positive. I have faith that if I don't take drugs my brain won't be fried.

You go out clobberring passers - by rather than refuse to do so. That's positive!

No, that would be a  negative.

See, Jenn, this is the damaged reasoning. Not only logical fallacy but ignorance (real or contrived) of the fact that this is a fallacious reasoning.

No, it is not my ignorance but your lack of faith in this area. {Negative}

(1) I await you triumphant "Ha, but I actually won! That proves I'm right." response.

Yes, we all win in the end. {Positive, faith}

CHB

[Loveroftruth]

"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

There is a place where I dwell sometimes (not enough) and you know when your there and when your there you enjoy the fruits of the spirit : But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance

This place is not found by reason or logic or scientific study, it is an actual "checking out" of those things and entering into something much different. This place is heaven on earth and when your there something infuses great faith into you....... :HeartThrob:

PEACE and LOVE  :girlheart:

[hopeful]

"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

There is a place where I dwell sometimes (not enough) and you know when your there and when your there you enjoy the fruits of the spirit : But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance

This place is not found by reason or logic or scientific study, it is an actual "checking out" of those things and entering into something much different. This place is heaven on earth and when your there something infuses great faith into you....... :HeartThrob:

PEACE and LOVE  :girlheart:

Amen!  :goodpost: I call it abiding in Him and I wouldn't trade it for anything else!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Amen....... :thumbsup:

[Reverend G]

Anybody checked these out?


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835


http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?print=1&did=0308-gallagher

[Transponder]

Actually, IMO, unbelief is what damages the capacity for reason. Many skeptics and atheists are so set in their ways, they are incapable of reasoning that there might actually be a creator God. They absolutely refuse to listen to others POV. :2c:

Well, that, Jenna, points up what I mean about damaged reason. Reason shows that there are too many unknowns for anyone to go further than the possibility of an intelligent Creator of some kind. Reason also questions whether the attempts of humans to contact this creator through prayer, meditation or the like produced anything but an internal effect.

Reason further wonders why it should matter and why one can't take a purely independent stance rather than sign up to some kind of faith.

Reason further looks at the supportive evidence (as i have done here) and find it at best, inconclusive, at worst downright wrong. But still repeated, sometimes after being shown up as not that good, as though it was good evidence. That's what I mean by damaged reason. 

So I'd say it is your stance that is unreasonable in the end and your partiality means that you cannot help but see the reasons as an unreasoning rejection of what to you is obvious, because you believe it. That's what I mean by damaged reason.

No, Trans, I am not going to say "Ha! I won!" This is a discussion forum, not a place for someone to get their nose rubbed in something. However, my stance is not unreasonable. I used to not believe in God either. However, it is reasoning that actually won out. Yes, it is obvious to me that God exists, but only because I was willing to open my mind to the possibility that He is real. Many atheists are unwilling, and so use false reasoning to uphold their theory that there cannot be a Creator. This is what damages the capacity for reasoning, the fact that they are so blind to reality that they cannot see the truth, or do not want to. Am I being partial? Maybe. But it is reasoning that brought me to where I am today.

"This is a discussion forum, not a place for someone to get their nose rubbed in something"

So it should be, though it sometimes feels to me that a bit of nose-rubbing goes on on both sides.

"it is obvious to me that God exists, but only because I was willing to open my mind to the possibility that He is real."

I have spent a few days thinking about this because of the point coming up with Fullarmor on the evolution thread, I believe? As I shall say to him when i move there to answer his posts, it is a very effective package; it does conflict with 'reason' in the sense that the logical conclusion that God is real is based only on a number of possibilities.
That there is an intelligent Creation agency,
that this intelligence wants to have a relationship with us,
that the way to do that is meditation of some kind
and that the results of that justify one's religious views.

That is not reason. What it is is an overall possibility amongs a number of others (the "which god" stage.

The package is then based on Pascal's wager - "It might be true; can you afford to take a chance?"  The result is then almost guaranteed, as once in a prayer posture, one is going to get the result, or if one doesn't more effort to believe is urged until one's brain clicks into the Faith mode.

So you see why I can't accepy that the 'reasons' are 'reasonable'

Pascal's wager has the justification. 'What have you lost if it isn't ture? At least you've been happy'

What indeed? That's what I have been thinking about. What I would have lost is independence of thought. I don't need to screen my views to see whether God would approve or not. I don't need to put out of my mind awkward questions such as 'What about the other religions? Couldn't they also be true?'

It is a choice in the end. It's like gambling. You might win. In fact, we KNOW that one can win, which is more than one can logically say about the existence of a god. But I don't gamble, because the odds are against it.

[Loveroftruth]

It is a choice in the end. It's like gambling. You might win. In fact, we KNOW that one can win, which is more than one can logically say about the existence of a god. But I don't gamble, because the odds are against it.

But its not in the "end" that we find out. Its in the now when God walks and talks with you and brings you to a place of adventure with Him... When I slow myself down enough to focus on God and my minute by minute, day by day walk, all kinds of stuff happens, things that He is saying "look at this, I set this up just for you" or "See this, this is such and such"...... there is more evidence in my life that He exist then the evidence that He does not.

Just my life is a testimony of transformation, I was at one point in my life very much into drugs and dealing with large quantities of it. I was very lost, one day my brother handed me a tract and I said the prayer and the next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer! All I know is something happened............ I never got rooted into church yet God just kept drawing me to Him, He dropped into me a deep hunger and I just kept following it.

I look at today and how my life has been one of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly and it was HIS doing, not mine.

I have pretty much been alone most of my walk, its been a narrow road. The greatest evidence of His hand in my life is when I come across many others that God has PERSONALLY shown the same things to, and shared the Same lessons, and Has brought them to the same view of Him! This PROVES to me that there is a God who speaks the same to others, shows the same to others. and the greatest thing for me is that the only revelation that now matters to me is that He says "He is my Father" and His love for me is incredible!   :girlheart:

[firstborn888]

the next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer!

And the grass was greener - it's like the blinders come off your total being, right?

I look at today and how my life has been one of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly and it was HIS doing, not mine.

...and that's hard to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it   :Sparkletooth:

I come across many others that God has PERSONALLY shown the same things to, and shared the Same lessons, and Has brought them to the same view of Him! This PROVES to me that there is a God who speaks the same to others, shows the same to others. and the greatest thing for me is that the only revelation that now matters to me is that He says "He is my Father" and His love for me is incredible!   :girlheart:

Again, it's hard to explain. If you understand spiritual things though, it makes perfect sense :Sparkletooth:

blessings,
- byron

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, LT  :thumbsup:

[Transponder]

CHB
Trans,

You have faith that you don't even recognize.   :bigGrin: When you get in your car, do you worry about getting where you are going safely? If not, then you have faith. When you go to bed are you scared to death that you won't wake up the next morning? If not, you have faith. Do you worry about your family any? If not, you have faith. Are you afraid to die? If not you have faith.

You see, there are positives and negatives. Positive thinking is an act of faith, negative thinking is a lack of faith. Do you think negative all the time?

CHB

I shall assume that you haven't read any refutations of this logical fallacy, though I suppose there have been some here.[/quote]

I already know what they are without reading them.

Then why use a logical fallacy in argument. Doesn't that strike you as a bit...illogical?

The fallacy is equivocation - faith (through experience) with faith belief through personal beliefs; that is faith through evidence against faith without and in spite of evidence. I know I'm going to die sometime - maybe tomorrow. I could worry about it, but all I can do is to try to see I'm in good health.

Why worry about your health? Lack of faith?  What difference does it make whether you are in good health or not, we all are going to die anyway? Do you think it will make you live longer. {Faith}

If one doesn't believe in an particular religon and the question of an anfterlife is moot, then this life is the only one we have and we should make the best of it. It is a common - and false - assertion that Theists often make about atheists that, without religion, life is not worth living.

Argument from Positive thinking is also a rhetorical trick. Let me show you how. Take your salary and place it on a horse. What? You don't want to risk it? Negative thinking. 

Lack of faith {negative} that the horse will win and I lose my money.

I don't quite follow. If the horse wins, how do you lose? You mean that the negative thinking means that you lose out on the chance that you win? That's how the bookies make fortunes out of the punters. In another sense, not betting means that you save your money. Thats a positive. The thing is that one can tinker about with positives and negatives. Provided that one makes a sensible decision, that is that, and pinning positive or negative labels on it is beside the point. and not very honest.

The fact that that is quite a sensible rejection of long odds against severe financial damage (1)is no less so for being open to having the 'negative' label pinned to it.

You refuse to take drugs? Negative CHB.

No, that is a positive. I have faith that if I don't take drugs my brain won't be fried.

Ok. Then I am refusing to take the religious drug offered to me by Fullarmor on the Evolution thread, because I have seen how it fries the brain. Atheism is thus a positive.

You go out clobberring passers - by rather than refuse to do so. That's positive!

No, that would be a  negative.

Because the end result is bad? Then you are changing positive and negative from action or non-action to good result/bad result. You are fiddling the semantics to suit yourself.

See, CHB, this is the damaged reasoning. Not only logical fallacy but ignorance (real or contrived) of the fact that this is a fallacious reasoning.

No, it is not my ignorance but your lack of faith in this area. {Negative}

No, this is not about faith and its benefits or otherwise, but the use or misuse of logic, semantics and logical fallacies. 

(1) I await you triumphant "Ha, but I actually won! That proves I'm right." response.

Yes, we all win in the end. {Positive, faith}

Do we? The fact is that I see Faith as a real danger to an objective, reasoning, lifestyle and therefore not a positive. I know it makes you feel good. So do drugs and booze but there are real dangers in their use, especially if they get control. That's why I say 'faith can seriously damage your reason'. It was a not a smart-alec quip; I really think that. In fact, I see plenty of examples here.

[Transponder]

It is a choice in the end. It's like gambling. You might win. In fact, we KNOW that one can win, which is more than one can logically say about the existence of a god. But I don't gamble, because the odds are against it.

But its not in the "end" that we find out. Its in the now when God walks and talks with you and brings you to a place of adventure with Him... When I slow myself down enough to focus on God and my minute by minute, day by day walk, all kinds of stuff happens, things that He is saying "look at this, I set this up just for you" or "See this, this is such and such"...... there is more evidence in my life that He exist then the evidence that He does not.

Just my life is a testimony of transformation, I was at one point in my life very much into drugs and dealing with large quantities of it. I was very lost, one day my brother handed me a tract and I said the prayer and the next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer! All I know is something happened............ I never got rooted into church yet God just kept drawing me to Him, He dropped into me a deep hunger and I just kept following it.

I look at today and how my life has been one of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly and it was HIS doing, not mine.

I have pretty much been alone most of my walk, its been a narrow road. The greatest evidence of His hand in my life is when I come across many others that God has PERSONALLY shown the same things to, and shared the Same lessons, and Has brought them to the same view of Him! This PROVES to me that there is a God who speaks the same to others, shows the same to others. and the greatest thing for me is that the only revelation that now matters to me is that He says "He is my Father" and His love for me is incredible!   :girlheart:

I have not been in that position, so I can't comment other than say that I have read many Deconversion stories that said that, once they deconverted, they found that existence was so much more marvellous, the sky bluer, the grass greener, on its own terms rather than being a sort of Commercial for God. I can't say more than that.

Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it." 

[Loveroftruth]

Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."

I totally reject that I used Christ as a crutch - I didn't even know I needed a crutch.
HE changed ME - like Byron says "Blinders came off" and suddenly I could see!

You have set yourself in your believe and hense it will take a Damascus experience for you. Maybe you will get it, maybe you wont.... But it is sad to me because you are missing out on the best thing in life  :sigh:

[Transponder]

Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."

I totally reject that I used Christ as a crutch - I didn't even know I needed a crutch.
HE changed ME - like Byron says "Blinders came off" and suddenly I could see!

You have set yourself in your believe and hense it will take a Damascus experience for you. Maybe you will get it, maybe you wont.... But it is sad to me because you are missing out on the best thing in life  :sigh:

"I was at one point in my life very much into drugs and dealing with large quantities of it. I was very lost, one day my brother handed me a tract and I said the prayer and the next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer! All I know is something happened........."

It's forcibly impressed on me that so many conversion testimonies have this sort of thing. Drugs, drink (in the days before drugs was the problem). It's forcibly impressed on me how many could not have got their lives off the ground without the conversion. The crutch-simile seems to fit, though I can understant that you won't like it.

a Phillipine kid once said to James Kirkup "Religion is good for you". One of those apologetics questions that require an answer.

Medicine is good for you, if you are ill. But, once you've recovered, to keep taking the medicine is hypochondria.

Yes, of course, I have come across all the apologetics gambits so I can't be talked into faith. I am not in a complete life-mess and I am happy with my lifestyle, so I am not vulnerable there. So there is nothing left but to hope for some God-imposed mental conversion. Pascal's wager was the last trick in the box.

However, I'm not saying what happened to you isn't real and good for you. What I'm saying is that it cannot be used (as some have tried to use such experiences) as evidence to support Christianity, because this sort of thing can happen in all religions.   

[firstborn888]

Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it." 

LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".

blessings,

Byron   

[Transponder]

Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it." 

LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".

blessings,

Byron   

The difference is, Rev. that the blind man can touch the things that a seer can see. The seer can describe something without touching it, while the blind bod checks the description. Like the johannine analogy of the wind, seeing and the air can be demonstrated and proved. The process of seeing can even be described.

However, what of the feeling that you have? Just a feeling, without any evidence to suggest that it has any reality outside of yourself - and others.

That doesn't mean that I'm rubbishing what you feel or what it did for you or still does. I'd be a lot happier with it, though, if it didn't need a lot of religious myth to get the effect working.

[firstborn888]

Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it." 

LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".

blessings,

Byron   

The difference is, Rev. that the blind man can touch the things that a seer can see. The seer can describe something without touching it, while the blind bod checks the description. Like the johannine analogy of the wind, seeing and the air can be demonstrated and proved. The process of seeing can even be described.

However, what of the feeling that you have? Just a feeling, without any evidence to suggest that it has any reality outside of yourself - and others.

That doesn't mean that I'm rubbishing what you feel or what it did for you or still does. I'd be a lot happier with it, though, if it didn't need a lot of religious myth to get the effect working.

Okay, the blind thing was a bad analogy. It's more like trying to get a dead person to respond. Dead to spiritual things. I was there, so I get it trans, totally get it.

The coolest thing would be if the contents of that bottle would turn into wine and come spinning off the page and christen you square in the head.  :laughing7:
That should do it....

Seriously, I always say that atheists are a step ahead of religious people because when they find the creator it's so genuine and non-religious.

blessings,
- Byron

[firstborn888]

Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed

[attachment deleted by admin]

[jenna]

Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed

:laugh: :thumbsup:

[firstborn888]

Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed

At least, not anointed by the good guys :happygrin:

- b

[Transponder]

Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it." 

LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".

blessings,

Byron   

The difference is, Rev. that the blind man can touch the things that a seer can see. The seer can describe something without touching it, while the blind bod checks the description. Like the johannine analogy of the wind, seeing and the air can be demonstrated and proved. The process of seeing can even be described.

However, what of the feeling that you have? Just a feeling, without any evidence to suggest that it has any reality outside of yourself - and others.

That doesn't mean that I'm rubbishing what you feel or what it did for you or still does. I'd be a lot happier with it, though, if it didn't need a lot of religious myth to get the effect working.

Okay, the blind thing was a bad analogy. It's more like trying to get a dead person to respond. Dead to spiritual things. I was there, so I get it trans, totally get it.

Ok, move the analogy along. It amounts to the same thing. People once assumed that comets and lightning were signs from god or gods. Now we know about them no reasonable person supposes that anymore. We don't know much about the process by which a person becomes obessively convinced of the truth of something and how that can become a religion. It's not something that seems to get a high research priority, though the psychology of conviction is something that interests me. But, when we do, then the religious experience ought to go the same way as comets. Or perhaps I should say, thinking that illness is caused by demons. 

The coolest thing would be if the contents of that bottle would turn into wine and come spinning off the page and christen you square in the head.  :laughing7:
That should do it....

Well, like I say, I'm still waiting. It would be So Simple to turn me into a believer. But It isn't going to happen Rev, and what's more I think you all know it isn't going to happen. Because, instead of all praying like the clappers for my bottle of tap to turn into chianti, the only response is Bible-mined quotes excusing why it won't happen. 

Seriously, I always say that atheists are a step ahead of religious people because when they find the creator it's so genuine and non-religious.

blessings,
- Byron

I did a bit of research on conversions in connection with a rather frequent Theist claim that more atheists converted than believers de-converted. From what I could see, the conversions were from 'unthinking' atheists (or, to use your term, unprepared ones). The 'thinking' atheists - the ones that had considered the matter and were prepared for the very persuasive, but essentially fallacious, appeals of the tract and the evangelist, never seemed to be fall for it.

On the other hand, deconversions tended to be from ordinary bods up to ministers and active evangelists, and the reason for the deconversions was having to look for answers to questions, either in arguing with unbelievers or because they couldn't ignore their own brain. It took years, sometimes, but the more they honestly and devotedly looked for the answers that surely must be there, the less sense it all made.

Deconversion is never easy. It often led to someone feeling that they had lost all the meaning from their life. But they couldn't go back. They could no longer believe what was no longer believable. And in the end they found that it was better in the end, when Life, the universe and everything (including thinking) no longer had to be filtered through the mental  screens of Faith.

[Transponder]

Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed

Sorry, you lost me.  Btw. I only just realized you are Firstborn rather than Rev. G. I get hit by all sorts of posters and - in some ways I suppose it's good - I answer posts on the merit of their content, not on the basis of who posted them.

[firstborn888]

Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed

Sorry, you lost me. 

Click on the pic to enlarge - it's post #666 :mshock:

:laughing7:

- byron

[Transponder]

Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed

Sorry, you lost me. 

Click on the pic to enlarge - it's post #666 :mshock:

:laughing7:

- byron

Ah!  :winkgrin: I get it. Well you have only 251 posts to go to get as unanointed as me. And if I may have my own little quip:

"absolute indisputable proof of UR: granddaughters"

Quite as good as any other proof I've seen here.