Paul Is Misunderstood

[Ross]

Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.

Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law

Indeed: love NEVER FAILS

[rosered]

Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.

Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law

God is love  and God never fails us
  By Him and for Him and though Him were all things made and NOTHING was made that was not made  .

His love and His faith and His hope is what keeps everything alive , all we have to do is ask Him and acknowledge HIM in everything  done . we are all beggars because without Him  we are nothing .
Indeed: love NEVER FAILS

[darryl]

 :iagree:

Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.

Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law

God is love  and God never fails us
  By Him and for Him and though Him were all things made and NOTHING was made that was not made  .

His love and His faith and His hope is what keeps everything alive , all we have to do is ask Him and acknowledge HIM in everything  done . we are all beggars because without Him  we are nothing .
Indeed: love NEVER FAILS

[jabcat]

Just throwing this in here, as it came to my mind about "Paul is misunderstood".  Peter said so :o

2 peter 3:15  Consider also that our Lord?s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

[rosered]

Just throwing this in here, as it came to my mind about "Paul is misunderstood".  Peter said so :o

2 peter 3:15  Consider also that our Lord?s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

That is a good point James .

I believe  that the law was always the important part of the long patience of God , it is the ministration of death in conviction of sin. 
and established   the truth but was only in part and that part had to be done in everyone though true repentance  to try and work out our own salvation.

Many tried to find loopholes in the law to their own destruction.  the True and Living God always knows the motives of the heart while mankind struggles with that   .
  this  to me is why the need for the Holy Spirit to come and enter our hearts to  teach us the truth and lead the way unto Life in Jesus Christ .

Jesus own testimony tells us that without Him we can do nothing .  He come to do the Fathers will perfectly  that would complete the law  and bring grace to all mankind though Him and produce many sons of God by the Holy Spirit  and His word  working in and though them in the world .  Jesus prayer in John 17   https://biblehub.com/john/17.htm

I believe that    name Immanuel  meaning God is with us  are the born again believers that belong to God   though Jesus Christ  .Jesus says ;  For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.  set apart as or declare holy; consecrate   from sin/  the lie  . by being our Holy  High  priest as they did under the law  but is even a better covenant in Him .

Jesus gave Himself  for the chosen and bought and paid for this  work/act    on the cross  established with His own blood ,   and was to LIVE FOREVER    .Under the Levitical  priesthood   they were temporary and  even though they hindered death by the law  all died eventually .

Paul saw  many things  by the revelation of Jesus to him on the road to Damascus.   Many other disciples  never had that kind of encounter not even Peter   .
I believe Peter   struggled with  the revelation of Jesus Christ at times and went back to the old law and ways , but trusted in the LORD  for his salvation  as well and did not discredit Paul

I know  that  Michael  the angel of the Lord did not  speak against   the law/ Moses  but  stated the Lord rebuke the liars  against the Truth .  That will be to their own destruction.

  here it is , God's Judgment on the Ungodly
Jude ?8Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings.

9But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, ?The Lord rebuke you!? 10These men, however, slander what they do not understand, and like irrational animals, they will be destroyed by the things they do instinctively.?

  God is the ultimate judge of all.  it is good to fear and respect Him in every way possible . 



 

[WhiteWings]

A large part of the problem is that there were two laws.
The written Law = Law of God = always theLaw in Greek.
The oral law = manmade "improvements " alwats written as law in Greek.
or
Quite a few times Paul is ridiculing the works of the oral law.
But he praises the written Law.
Law without works is dead is the written law.

"the" is added so the verse is fluent English or doctine.

So:
Faith + written Law = Life
Faith + nothing = death
Faith + oral law is death

Figuring out when your translation has a misleading  "the" will clear up a lot of misunderstanding.

[Ross]

Just throwing this in here, as it came to my mind about "Paul is misunderstood".  Peter said so :o

2 peter 3:15  Consider also that our Lord?s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yep.
Claiming to be god'driven ministers of righteousness: will even carry out all sorts of signs and wonders, along with persuasive arguments/concepts.
Seems that the point Peter says about Paul is that ignorant and unstable twist his message to their understanding: and miss the mark.
The word played interpretation of many  seems to be a distraction by the flesh to claim recognition for personal effort.
IMO Paul is misunderstood by the flesh

[rosered]

 


Paul knew By the Holy Spirit .


simply   pride of life    15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world? the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life? is not from the Father but from the world.

17The world is passing away, along with its desires; but whoever does the will of God remains forever.?

Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.

Proverbs 27:20
Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Romans 13:14
Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.

Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

James 4:16
As it is, you boast in your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil.

1 Peter 2:11
Beloved, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul.


Sadly there is no respect any longer but respecter of persons and it is so anti-Christ  ,it is a spirit of pride and evil  .  If they do not respect God  and put Him first and foremost  , everything is scattered to the 4 winds  for judgment 


Matt 12 ?29Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man?s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man?

Then he can plunder his house.

30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters

. 31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.?

Any one whom does not fear God is  foolish by nature and will  come to an  end .

[joeteekay]

A large part of the problem is that there were two laws.
The written Law = Law of God = always theLaw in Greek.
The oral law = manmade "improvements " alwats written as law in Greek.
or
Quite a few times Paul is ridiculing the works of the oral law.
But he praises the written Law.
Law without works is dead is the written law.

"the" is added so the verse is fluent English or doctine.

So:
Faith + written Law = Life
Faith + nothing = death
Faith + oral law is death

Figuring out when your translation has a misleading  "the" will clear up a lot of misunderstanding.

I am still perplexed by the distinction of "law" and " the law". Not sure what is meant by oral law? Is it the unwritten law that Paul mentions in Romans 2:12-15.  It is the scriptural record where to word "law" is sometimes used and "the law" at other times.

Looking at every verse in the book of Romans in the literal translations we find that "the law" is not always rendered as "the law".  Some times it is just "law" and other times "the law?. So the word cannot be used in place of the other or always rendered "the law" although it is found that way in most translations.  And it is just natural for us to speak of "the law" in every day usage.

God is the Creator of law.  All is of God (Rom. 11:36, I Cor. 8:6, I Cor. 11:12, 2Co 5:18)  therefore all laws are of God, both physical and spiritual.  Laws are required for the coherent functioning of all that is.  IMO there are various aspects to the word "LAW".  Even the physical universe functions on the bases of laws of physics and science, i.e.  law of gravity, Newton's laws of motion, behavior of atomic and sub-atomic particles, etc.

In the NT law (G3551 nomos) has various aspects.  It is described as "law". or "the law" or "the law of"?(i.e. the law of the husband).  Why did the Apostles, especially Paul and John sometimes refer to "law" and other times to "the law".  Are they indicating to us that there is a difference?  When we find just the word law (without the definite article) , it is referring to the universal law of God.  When we find "the law" (with the definite article) in the NT it usually is referring to the Law of Moses given at Mount Sinai.  To see this distinction, one needs to use a translation based on the original writings such as the Concordant Literal version and Young's Literal translation.  Widely used translations such as NKJV, AV, NIV, etc. do not make a distinction between "law" and "the law".

Spiritual law always existed.  Love (agape) is of God.  When law is violated, there are consequences.  There never was a time when there was no law.  Adam and Eve sinned.  Sin is the transgression of law - spiritual law (the original does not have "the law" like popular translations).  When one reads the first chapter of Romans, it is evident that people transgressed God's universal Law long before "the law" came into effect.

Just as the physical laws exist, so to with the spiritual laws since the creation.  Breaking a spiritual law results in sin (missing the mark).  Cain slew Able and committed sin.

This is a complex subject.  On rare occasions especially in the book of Romans it is not always clear IMO.

For example in :
Rom 2:12 (CLV)  for whoever sinned without the law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.  13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified  14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,

Rom. 5: 13 (CLV)  for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;

And some verses are clear:

Rom 6: 14 (CLV)  For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.  15 What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!

Gen_26:5  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Perhaps it would be helpful to research every verse where law is mentioned, examine the context and  explore its meaning in light of this type of approach.  It would be tedious task.

2Co 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter (law of Moses), but of the spirit (God's universal law of love): for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death (law of Moses), written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit (God's universal law of love) be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9  For if the ministration of condemnation  (law of Moses)be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness (God's universal law of love) exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect (law of Moses), by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11  For if that which is done away was glorious (law of Moses), much more that which remaineth (God's universal law of love) is glorious.

I must be missing something. :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

I am still perplexed by the distinction of "law" and " the law". Not sure what is meant by oral law? Is it the unwritten law that Paul mentions in Romans 2:12-15.  It is the scriptural record where to word "law" is sometimes used and "the law" at other times.

God's Law was written down by Moses in the first 5 books.

The oral law, was memorized and written down long after the last Apostle died was like a commentaty or interpretation. That's what Jesus called the heavy yoke.
Example: God's written law simply states "no servile work on Sabbath".
Then the ancient teachers started debating "What's the definition of work?". Must include carrying something. Today some Jews don't even have a cigarette lighter in their pocket on Sabbath day, because it means carrying and carrying is work. Or flick a light switch because that's like kindling a fire 4000 years ago, and is work. That sort of stuff.

And it is just natural for us to speak of "the law" in every day usage

And that's exactly why 'the' is inserted. But sometimes it hides something vital.

In Gal 3:2-11 Paul talking bad about, even ridiculing law.
Likewise he's in the first half of verse 10.
And then suddenly in the second half of verse 10, everyone not following 'the law' is cursed. Meaning 'the law' suddenly is very good. Is Paul contradicting himself?

It's no longer possible to post pictures here on TM so: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/gal3.pdf

Please go to verse 10, and seach for the two times Law is mentioned in that verse. Now look very closely for "OF-THE LAW". It's the only time Paul is positive about a/the law.
The rest of the verses Paul is negative and everytime Greek reads OF-LAW


The same type of thing is used in Hebrew.
Example: Satan means accuser or slanderer. There are millions of them, because it's a job in court.
When it's about that fallen angel, the serpent, devil etc it's haSatan. That prefix makes all the difference.

[WhiteWings]

Link to a picture

[jugghead]

Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.

Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law

These are two different statements saying the same thing, which I fully agree with.

For me, in it's simplest terms, people are either of the old covenant of law or the new covenant of grace at any given point in time (a moment). But within the span of time, an hour, a day a week, people can switch between the two covenants.

What I have come to understand is: if you are fully of the covenant of grace, loving, forgiving, compassionate, kind, all the attributes of the Holy Spirit at all times, then the old covenant of law is fulfilled, all the laws of the old covanant are obeyed automatically, we do not have to know the law from the old covenant, as long as we know the law of the new covenant all the old are obeyed, in other words, all are fulfilled which is what I believe Jesus meant when He said He has come to fulfill the law, which I believe goes beyond just making it complete.

It's like in a courtroom, you can be of the law which codemns and punishes any wrong doing OR you can be of grace and forgive any wrong doing.

NO I am not saying to forgive those who do wrong here and let them go, simply because they still have the means to do evil, they are still in the body of flesh, but when we die, we are no longer in that body of flesh which makes it possible to do evil, but by leaving that means behind when we die, their spirit can now be forgiven.

This physical realm is where the lesser light rules (the law), in the spiritual realm it is the greater light that rules (grace). We are who bring the greater light to this world of darkness.

My  :2c: