Faith AND Works
I believe all of these Bible passages support the view that faith without works is dead.
John 10:37-38; Matthew 5:16; Matthew 16:27; Matthew 23:03; Matthew 23:05; John 6:28; John 8:39; John 14:12; Acts 9:36; Acts 26:20; Ephes. 2:9-10; Romans 13:03; 2 Cor. 11:15; 1 Tim. 2:9-10; 1 Tim. 5:10; 1 Tim. 5:25; 1 Tim. 6:18; 2 Tim. 3:17; 2 Tim. 4:14; Titus 1:16; Titus 2:07; Titus 2:14; Titus 3:08; Titus 3:14; Hebrews 3:09; Hebrews 4:10; Hebrews 10:24; James 2:14; James 2:17-18; James 2:20-22; James 2:24-26; James 3:13; 1 Peter 2:12; Rev. 2:02; Rev. 2:05; Rev. 2:09; Rev. 2:13; Rev. 2:19; Rev. 2:23; Rev. 2:26; Rev. 3:1-2; Rev. 3:08; Rev. 3:15; Rev. 14:13; Rev. 20:12-13
I believe only the following 14 passages by Paul make it seem that doing good works is wrong, but Paul did not mean what it seems he said, because he more often clearly agreed with the view that faith without works is dead (passages shown above). In the article below about Paul (I think by a messianic Jew) it is said that Paul was only referring to ceremonial law, not the fundamental law of Love of the Bible. After all, John equated Jesus with the Law of Love. So see now if Paul's 14 passages below make sense this way. (I added the author's and my understanding of several words in brackets.)
_Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works [of ceremonial law]? Nay: but by the law of faith [faithfulness: pistis = fidelity = faithfulness].
_Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works [of ceremonial law], he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
_Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works [of ceremonial law],
_Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [of ceremonial law], but of him that calleth;)
_Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith [faithfulness], but as it were by the works of the [ceremonial] law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
_Romans 11:6 And if by grace [divine influence], then is it no more of works [of ceremonial law]: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works [of ceremonial law], then is it no more grace: otherwise work [of ceremonial law] is no more work [of ceremonial law].
_Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the [ceremonial] law, but by the faith [faithfulness] of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the [ceremonial] law: for by the works of the [ceremonial] law shall no flesh [mortal] be justified.
_Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the [ceremonial] law, or by the hearing of faith [truth]?
_Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the [ceremonial] law, or by the hearing of faith [truth]?
_Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the [ceremonial] law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the [ceremonial] law to do them.
_2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works [of ceremonial law], but according to his own purpose and grace [divine influence], which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
_Titus 3:5 Not by works of [ceremonial law] righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
_Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works [of ceremonial law], and of faith [faithfulness] toward God,
_Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works [of ceremonial law] to serve the living God?
WAS PAUL A HERETIC?
www.fossilizedcustoms.com (http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com)
Considering Paul (Sha'ul), the Natsari Pharisee
There's a growing number of people debating over Sha'ul these days. Generally, there are three views of him. Kepha (Peter) told us that Shaul's letters were difficult to understand (2Kepha 3:15,16), and his words were "twisted" by the untaught and unstable.
View #1: For the bulk of Christian history, Catholicism taught that salvation comes by receiving "grace" through "sacraments", and that any obedience to the Commandments of YHWH was seen as "judaizing" and cut them off from Messiah. The Reformation started on the path back to the Truth by rejecting any salvation based on human efforts, such as "indulgences" or the "7 sacraments" - yet Luther still brought a few of the "sacraments" out with him! Shaul's writings have been used to defend the position that believers are saved by "grace alone" (Eph. 2:8,9). Shaul's so-called "anti-Torah" (anti-law) comments have been used mostly by the Reformers, because they desire to maintain the Replacement Theology of Romanism (that the "church" replaced Yisrael), setting aside any application of the Ten Commandments as having bearing on inheriting eternal life. The Ten Commandments that define sin have been annulled in this view, and salvation through belief in Yahushua's shed blood supercedes any need to obey. They claim we are now "free" from the "curse" of the law, and anyone attempting to obey the "Old Covenant" is seen as a heretic, judaizer, and a reprobate. For centuries this view was enforced through the Catholic institution's dogmas as well, and any competing views were vigorously eliminated - with extreme prejudice (they were killed). It was a man named Marcion that promoted the forbidding of what is called the "Old Covenant", which included the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. He allowed only the writings of what came to be known as the "New Testament".
View #2: Today there are others who go to the other extreme, and call Sha'ul himself a heretic who was responsible for the "apostasy", the falling-away from the Torah by Christianity.
For those who believe Sha'ul's letters indicated an annulling of any Commandments pertaining to the definition of sin, or that he contradicted the words of Rabbi Yahushua [Jesus], please consider that you may have misunderstood what Sha'ul was referring to.
View #3: We who accept Shaul but reject "lawlessness" have been given a balanced understanding of his letters. Shaul was the apostle to the Gentiles, who were known as adult males "uncircumcised" in their flesh. The letter to the Galatians (and other texts) addressed the "law" of adult male circumcision, which had been up to that time a cornerstone for any Gentile converting to the faith of Abraham, Yitshaq, and Ya'aqob. Further study will reveal this; even Kepha (Peter) pointed out that Shaul's letters were not easy to understand, but were "twisted" by those who were untaught (2 Kepha 3:15,16). Kepha warned us to watch, lest we be led away to destruction by the delusion of the lawless. He didn't include Sha'ul as a lawless one, but stated that Sha'ul's letters were being twisted, as were "the other Writings". For those who have interpreted that Sha'ul wrote of an "end of the law", Kepha's warning was written directly to those who live without the Torah! Those who live and believe they are "free" to disregard the Commandments are in spiritual danger; Kepha mentioned their "destruction" — so this is critical to get corrected (and why I'm writing this to you all!).
For those who believe Sha'ul was a heretic that needs to be exposed for what he wrote about bringing an "end of the law", you have also misunderstood his writings. Kepha called Shaul "our beloved brother" at 2Kepha 3:15. Is Kepha a heretic also? Luke, who wrote about 40% of the Brith Chadasha (Re-newed Covenant, or Messianic Writings), was the most orderly writer of them all. He started at the beginning, writing both "Luke" and "Acts" to a person referred to as "most excellent Theophilos". He began his first narrative with the birth of Yohanan, Yahushua's cousin. He tells us how Yohanan immersed Yahushua. Yohanan was finally imprisoned and beheaded by Herod. In chapter 3, Luke expounds the lineage of Yahushua, and goes on in the rest of his book to describe all the miracles and teachings of the Messiah of Yisrael. Luke also wrote the "Acts" of the apostles; and of no small mention is Shaul, the source of so much misunderstanding. Shaul is described as the "apostle to the Gentiles", and Luke traveled with him to many cities witnessing in the synagogues. Luke recorded Shaul's conversion, and Yahushua didn't seem to think Shaul was a "heretic", but rather Yahushua Himself told HananYah of Shaul: "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My Name before nations, sovereigns, and the children of Yisrael" - Acts 9:15. HananYah stood corrected, but at first he thought Shaul to be the most dangerous man on Earth. Shaul was also at the Yerushalayim Council, Acts 15. How do you feel about Shaul now? If you regard Shaul to be a heretic, then you will also have to trash Kepha and Luke. The only way to overcome the misunderstanding of Shaul's letters is by seeing that he was under constant criticism (in his time) over the topic of adult male circumcision for converts. Acts 15 addressed this controversial matter, and it should have put it to rest forever; but we know that even today there are those who wrestle with it, causing division in the Body of Messiah. When Shaul seems to be saying we are no longer "under the law", the "law" to which he is referring concerns adult male circumcision.
Ephesians 2:8,9 discusses "works" not saving us; but Shaul refers to those ceremonial "works" which we had formerly relied on -- animal sacrifices, circumcision, etc.,. -- certainly he never meant the annulment of the Ten Commandments, which we obey as the re-newed Covenant, promised to us at YermeYahu 31:31 to be written on our hearts. At Ephesians 2:10, the next verse, Shaul states that we were created in Messiah to perform good works, and implies that this is to obey the Ten Commandments:
"For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Yahushua unto good works, which Elohim prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:10. The word "them" refers to the good works prepared beforehand - the Ten Words, called the Covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Works are the fruit of our faith, and perfect our belief. ...
Lloyd said, "I believe all of these Bible passages support the view that faith without works is dead."
You didn't need all that back up Lloyd. The Bible says those exact words in James.
IMO, We do good works because we are already saved, not to become saved. If one isn't doing good worls as a natural outpouring of the Holy spirit within, then there really is no faith because there is really no indwelt spirit.
"Works are the fruit of our faith"
I agree with that.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 18, 2013, 11:32:03 PM
We do good works because we are already saved, not to become saved.
Amen. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--not because of works, lest any man should boast. for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk."
I have no faith unless He gives it to me, or good in Me unless it's Him in me. Nor do I have any good works unless I'm doing the above - walking in Him - then the good things He has prepared beforehand occur. All scripture summaries; we walk in Him; we look to Him the author and finisher of our faith; and all good things come from Him.
The glory is His.
Blessings.
Yeppers ......
The Father and the Son are in you doing the works :) By your faith in them , so He may be Glorified .... good stuff guys :thumbsup:
thought of John 14 , and how its possible faith IS believing > ''is faith works''
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me.
Jhn 14:11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.
Jhn 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.
Jhn 14:13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father.
Jhn 14:14 Yes, ask me
The word "them" refers to the good works prepared beforehand - the Ten Words, called the Covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Works are the fruit of our faith, and perfect our belief. ...
Llyod should I keep working untill I perfect my beliefs?
Also I asked you this before is Jesus God?
The other issue is are we justified by faith alone?
Paul says yes.
Can we say that the Law no longer applies to us, therefore?
Paul says no. The Law still applies. Christ came to fulfill the Law.
And, we are to obey the Law [not ceremonial law but the royal commandments of God].
Through the faith of Christ we, too, can fulfill the Law through love.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
--Gal 5:22-23
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
--Rom 13:10
Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."
--Mat 22:37-40
I think that bothering to look at someone else's works or your own works to test the legitimacy of salvation is a complete waste of time.
First of all there are billions of non-Christians who are more loving, caring, selfless, etc. than many Christians, but by this logic their faith is more legitimate than a Christian's.
Second of all if a Christian makes a mistake (or a continuous series of mistakes) then we are somehow supposed to see that as evidence of a lack of faith in their heart. How does this edify or build up in any way?
Following these two premises to their logical conclusion, you will become a pharisee, able to do nothing more than judge yourself and others for their "goodness" or "badness." This is never what God calls us to do.
Christians who search for so-called evidence for the faith of others will always gravitate towards the same things:
- How diligently does the person in question study God's word?
- How scrupulous are they in tithing and other acts of charity?
- Do they make it a practice to live "untainted" by the world?
- Do they live as though Christ might come back at any minute?
- Are they conscientious in obeying God's commands?
Ok, now I want you to guess, out of all the characters in the Bible who does this description fit the best?
.................
................
.............
..........Did you guess?
The Pharisees!!!
But we can't be like them, can we? Oh no, the pharisees are the bad people, we are on God's good side (just like the Pharisees thought they were.) We couldn't be like them, we are God's chosen people! (Just like the pharisees believed themselves to be) We are living the most righteous way possible, and are most definitely pleasing to God, he wouldn't be mad at us!!!
The simple fact is that most Christians (including myself) decide to live as Pharisees. That doesn't mean it's easy to admit, but it's the truth. We are far more focused on the external so-called "works" than we are about our internal selves, and that's the tragedy that all of us need to confront daily. (External paid attention to - beautiful, clean, white-washed!!!) (Internal mostly ignored - moldy, stagnant, stale!)
I'm going to argue the opposite of you and say that if your focus is on works that's the biggest evidence that you don't have faith.
See now, I would have guessed correctly if you hadn't thrown in, "- Do they live as though Christ might come back at any minute?"
How is that of the pharisees :dontknow:
Maybe they lived as if Messiah was coming back any minute. They must have checked their watches a lot, or logged onto www.messiahwatch.org a lot...
Waiting for the messiah but not waiting for the messiah to come back :Peace2:
There's only one source of goodness. Even Jesus said "why call Me good? there is only One good" and John 17 Jesus clearly said "I can do nothing apart from the Father".
Hebrews 4, I think it is, says Jesus is our Sabbath rest. We rest in Him. And if there w2as one thing God was always adamant about, it was "no work upon sabbath".
Our faith produces good works. But works in order to be saved implies other than One source of goodness.
Also the sermon on the mount(ain) pretty much declares "the law" isn't good enough anyway! No longer good enough to not murder, but don't hate/be angry w/o cause.. etc.
Any requirement we put upon people other than faith alone, is works. And to "mix law with grace is to be fallen away".. The law was for tiny Israel to be swaddling cloths for Jesus, rather than His coming to, say, tree worshipers.
Through faith we draw near to God. The only source of transformation. Works for salvation of to please God is rags. We have one law/rule, Love God. If we do that we will be filled with Him who is love and love works no ill, and we wiLL love our fellow person.
"The law" Paul said (galatians 3?) was a tutor (babysitter) until one comes of age by being in Jesus... I'm glad we usually do not have to get every morning and remind our self "today i will not murder".. Not to say Christians are perfect(ed). Not yet. We rest in the finished work of Jesus.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 19, 2013, 09:45:02 PM
Waiting for the messiah but not waiting for the messiah to come back :Peace2:
Israel was waiting for the initial incarnation, we await his return. I don't think the timetable matters in either case, it's an instance of the advent of Christ. :)
Paul I not misunderstood.
This issue arose because of false brothers smuggled in,
who came in secretly to spy on the freedom that we have in Christ Jesus,
in order to enslave us.
Works without faith=law
Faith without works=dead
In my life, works I must manufacture fall flat, and leave me feeling sick as if I gorged myself on junk food.
Works are an extension of our faith, joy, hope and peace. They come directly from our relationship with Christ. True faith can be seen by how we love our neighbor. If we say we have faith, yet do not love our neighbor we deceive ourselves.
Let me take this a step further. Even the demons understand Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of humanity. Knowledge of this event and saying some sort of salvation prayer IMO is not faith in Christ. Faith in Christ is love for our neighbor. The parable about sheeps and goats displays what faith in Christ looks like...and that certainly involves works.
In my mind there are two thoughts I can have.
1)God does things for me.
2)I do things for God.
When I put the two together I have a satanic relationship with God
"God does things(works) through you that believe"
...be careful not to do your works in front of men..like the hypocrites do...outward showy displays..of
giving and praying etc. they receive their reward in the praise of men...
Quote from: marie glen on March 19, 2013, 10:19:43 PM
Our faith produces good works. But works in order to be saved implies other than One source of goodness.
Also the sermon on the mount(ain) pretty much declares "the law" isn't good enough anyway! No longer good enough to not murder, but don't hate/be angry w/o cause.. etc.
Any requirement we put upon people other than faith alone, is works. And to "mix law with grace is to be fallen away".. The law was for tiny Israel to be swaddling cloths for Jesus, rather than His coming to, say, tree worshipers.
Through faith we draw near to God. The only source of transformation. Works for salvation of to please God is rags. We have one law/rule, Love God. If we do that we will be filled with Him who is love and love works no ill, and we wiLL love our fellow person.
Amazing quote marie glen my friend. I approve of it. Specifically, We are not saved by our works, but rather faith alone in Christ. But inevitably, after salvation, our faith will produce good works.
Faith is the seed planted to be saved before salvation. Then salvation. Then our faith inevitably bears good fruit, which are the works, after salvation. Those works don't save us, they simply come as a happy result of just being a believer in Christ. We do good works simply because they are good!
In a person?s heart they have faith alone in Christ to be saved, so God sees that. Humans can only see our works, so we are justified by mere human sinners by our works. Yet we are justified by God by faith alone in Christ.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote from: jabcat on March 19, 2013, 12:14:28 AM
"Works are the fruit of our faith"
I agree with that.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 18, 2013, 11:32:03 PM
We do good works because we are already saved, not to become saved.
Amen. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--not because of works, lest any man should boast. for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk."
Blessings.
:iagree:
Exactly this! God bless ded2daworld and jabcat. The reason we bear fruit is because it is good, because the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Salvation is about gaining the Holy Ghost. How? By faith alone in Christ.
Knowing this is an old thread but a good one :dsunny:
Been thinking about how faith and works prove the TRUTH , as of late .
Thinking Everything is from God , I am a beggar at the gate asking for more of Him all the time , it is Jesus endless supply of faith and hope and love that sustains us all.
HE has it all and needs nothing , we on the other hand have nothing and need everything to maintain LIFE in ourselves and so thankful for every drop given and received and do not want it to be wasted on foolishness but make THE difference .
Because there is a difference .
I asked the Holy Spirit to help discern the spirits . some days I know evil spirits come and torment us all with horrible thoughts and act on them ugh :sigh:
What helped the most was paying attention to what manner of spirit we are of . Experience by practicing discernment , first within me and than others .
First lesson was is it of God ? is there reasoning and peace and joy with it ? is it understanding better choices to work with others ? Does it bring any kind of hope ? Does these words crush us or help us to know what is good , building one another up or invoke fear, anger and defeat ?
or do they make hope alive in us ?
We must question everything to gain insight , first within us and when you are stronger in Christ understand our own motives of the heart .
LOVE GOD first and foremost everything else can fall into place and can be added on to us whom believe in the promises of God whole heartedly.
I see no other way it can be done but BY HIS HOLY WORD AND SPIRIT fulfilling His promises and trusting in Him all the more.We are going to need a lot more of Him in these days ahead. .
Most bible scholars, teachers and pastors make every effort to integrate and combine what Apostle Paul wrote with what the other Apostles wrote. They do this without recognizing the significant differences in the respective contents of the writings.
The commission of Jesus Christ and His twelve disciples were separate and distinct from the commission given to apostle Paul. This may seem doubtful at first thought, but it becomes clear when an overview is taken of the entire New Testament in its proper chronological order. And yet most well-known teachers and preachers force-fit the two commissions into one and the whole thing becomes jumbled confusion. This blending produces conflicts when comparing the writings of Apostle Paul and those of Peter, John, James and Jude.
Paul?s description of the place and effect of the law was different than that of the other scriptural writers. Close examination of the writings of the New Testament will reveal that the gospel of Jesus and the 12 apostles were intended for the circumcision only whereas the teaching of Paul was for mostly the uncircumcision (the gentiles).
Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2023, 08:19:19 PM
Most bible scholars, teachers and pastors make every effort to integrate and combine what Apostle Paul wrote with what the other Apostles wrote. They do this without recognizing the significant differences in the respective contents of the writings.
The commission of Jesus Christ and His twelve disciples were separate and distinct from the commission given to apostle Paul. This may seem doubtful at first thought, but it becomes clear when an overview is taken of the entire New Testament in its proper chronological order. And yet most well-known teachers and preachers force-fit the two commissions into one and the whole thing becomes jumbled confusion. This blending produces conflicts when comparing the writings of Apostle Paul and those of Peter, John, James and Jude.
Paul?s description of the place and effect of the law was different than that of the other scriptural writers. Close examination of the writings of the New Testament will reveal that the gospel of Jesus and the 12 apostles were intended for the circumcision only whereas the teaching of Paul was for mostly the uncircumcision (the gentiles).
Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.
Yes I love that also Joeteekay!
I realized something in this also it seems that Paul was explaining that he was one born out of due time or in other words Even though he was a pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin.
under the law still , as is Israel to this day , to me the turning point was when Jesus told them about not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit , when they told Jesus he was casting out demons by Belzebub , to me that was the cutting off point and allowing the gentiles to come in ..He wept for them in Jerusalem. How he would have loved to gather them under His wing like a mother hen protects its chicks .
Paul was given the gift of Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus and wanted to expound the teaching of Jesus Christ fully ,by explaining the mysteries of the ages and realizing his error /sin by confessing how he killed so many new born of Christ without knowing any better . He was shaken up big time and tried to show the great mercy and grace God was showing him .
I believe the law sets apart those whom judge in Moses seat are also judged by the same law and standards set and ordained from the beginning when the law come into effect . the last shall be first and the first are last to come into Christ . it seems the Word tells us this much by the apostles testimonies as well as Jesus own Words .
God is no respecter of persons Matt 23 the law is still an important teacher and in effect 1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2 ?The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses? seat. 3
So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.?
The hypocrisy is this to me their words and works do not measure up to the standard set . they fussed over the small trivial things and let the greater and most important things of God go without sound judgment and missing the whole point of the lessons learned .
Strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel.
The flesh trying to claim a spiritual insight.
Unless literally born again of the spirit one cannot perceive the reality of life for a reason. All this so that no one can ever claim greater authority than anyone else.
Paul also makes a point about being a child and reasoning like a child- also being under a guardian until becoming of age: little bit of that illustrates how things are going for mankind in the program.
IMO the things that the Pharisees depicted are copied by the papal/churches by ministers claiming to be god'driven forces. Bit of a give away of them being off the mark when they basically think that they can kill people who don't agree with their doctrine.
If one looks at how many people are going to hell, according to their teaching, then God is to be literally scared of since their doctrine depicts God as saying love me or else go to eternal punishment.
That is fear, not awe.
Paul stated that he was a sinner at the highest level- even murdered people who were against his understanding of religion.
Sites that his conversion was by Christ.
We are like him.
So that no man can boast.
That is another give away about how preachers say look at me- just like Satan promotes personal effort for salvation.
The glorious work of Christ is perfect and covers all people at their appointed time.
His love never fails 💓 ❤️
The peace of God passes all understanding of the flesh, but inspires the spirit. Literally!
It truly is how we handle the Word of Life , and can only be done though the only Holy Spirit of Life
all other spirits are deceived and deceivers still
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2023, 08:19:19 PM
Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.
Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law
Quote from: darryl on October 27, 2023, 08:44:57 AM
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2023, 08:19:19 PM
Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.
Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law
Indeed: love NEVER FAILS
Quote from: Ross on October 31, 2023, 01:23:17 AM
Quote from: darryl on October 27, 2023, 08:44:57 AM
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2023, 08:19:19 PM
Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.
Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law
God is love and God never fails us
By Him and for Him and though Him were all things made and NOTHING was made that was not made .
His love and His faith and His hope is what keeps everything alive , all we have to do is ask Him and acknowledge HIM in everything done . we are all beggars because without Him we are nothing .
Indeed: love NEVER FAILS
:iagree:
Quote from: rosered on October 31, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
Quote from: Ross on October 31, 2023, 01:23:17 AM
Quote from: darryl on October 27, 2023, 08:44:57 AM
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2023, 08:19:19 PM
Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.
Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law
God is love and God never fails us
By Him and for Him and though Him were all things made and NOTHING was made that was not made .
His love and His faith and His hope is what keeps everything alive , all we have to do is ask Him and acknowledge HIM in everything done . we are all beggars because without Him we are nothing .
Indeed: love NEVER FAILS
Just throwing this in here, as it came to my mind about "Paul is misunderstood". Peter said so :o
2 peter 3:15 Consider also that our Lord?s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2023, 04:41:53 AM
Just throwing this in here, as it came to my mind about "Paul is misunderstood". Peter said so :o
2 peter 3:15 Consider also that our Lord?s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
That is a good point James .
I believe that the law was always the important part of the long patience of God , it is the ministration of death in conviction of sin.
and established the truth but was only in part and that part had to be done in everyone though true repentance to try and work out our own salvation.
Many tried to find loopholes in the law to their own destruction. the True and Living God always knows the motives of the heart while mankind struggles with that .
this to me is why the need for the Holy Spirit to come and enter our hearts to teach us the truth and lead the way unto Life in Jesus Christ .
Jesus own testimony tells us that without Him we can do nothing . He come to do the Fathers will perfectly that would complete the law and bring grace to all mankind though Him and produce many sons of God by the Holy Spirit and His word working in and though them in the world . Jesus prayer in John 17 https://biblehub.com/john/17.htm
I believe that name Immanuel meaning God is with us are the born again believers that belong to God though Jesus Christ .Jesus says ; For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth. set apart as or declare holy; consecrate from sin/ the lie . by being our Holy High priest as they did under the law but is even a better covenant in Him .
Jesus gave Himself for the chosen and bought and paid for this work/act on the cross established with His own blood , and was to LIVE FOREVER .Under the Levitical priesthood they were temporary and even though they hindered death by the law all died eventually .
Paul saw many things by the revelation of Jesus to him on the road to Damascus. Many other disciples never had that kind of encounter not even Peter .
I believe Peter struggled with the revelation of Jesus Christ at times and went back to the old law and ways , but trusted in the LORD for his salvation as well and did not discredit Paul
I know that Michael the angel of the Lord did not speak against the law/ Moses but stated the Lord rebuke the liars against the Truth . That will be to their own destruction.
here it is , God's Judgment on the Ungodly
Jude ?8Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings.
9But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, ?The Lord rebuke you!? 10These men, however, slander what they do not understand, and like irrational animals, they will be destroyed by the things they do instinctively.?
God is the ultimate judge of all. it is good to fear and respect Him in every way possible .
A large part of the problem is that there were two laws.
The written Law = Law of God = always theLaw in Greek.
The oral law = manmade "improvements " alwats written as law in Greek.
or
Quite a few times Paul is ridiculing the works of the oral law.
But he praises the written Law.
Law without works is dead is the written law.
"the" is added so the verse is fluent English or doctine.
So:
Faith + written Law = Life
Faith + nothing = death
Faith + oral law is death
Figuring out when your translation has a misleading "the" will clear up a lot of misunderstanding.
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2023, 04:41:53 AM
Just throwing this in here, as it came to my mind about "Paul is misunderstood". Peter said so :o
2 peter 3:15 Consider also that our Lord?s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Yep.
Claiming to be god'driven ministers of righteousness: will even carry out all sorts of signs and wonders, along with persuasive arguments/concepts.
Seems that the point Peter says about Paul is that ignorant and unstable twist his message to their understanding: and miss the mark.
The word played interpretation of many seems to be a distraction by the flesh to claim recognition for personal effort.
IMO Paul is misunderstood by the flesh
Paul knew By the Holy Spirit .
simply pride of life 15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world? the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life? is not from the Father but from the world.
17The world is passing away, along with its desires; but whoever does the will of God remains forever.?
Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.
Proverbs 27:20
Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Romans 13:14
Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
James 4:16
As it is, you boast in your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil.
1 Peter 2:11
Beloved, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul.
Sadly there is no respect any longer but respecter of persons and it is so anti-Christ ,it is a spirit of pride and evil . If they do not respect God and put Him first and foremost , everything is scattered to the 4 winds for judgment
Matt 12 ?29Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man?s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man?
Then he can plunder his house.
30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters
. 31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.?
Any one whom does not fear God is foolish by nature and will come to an end .
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2023, 10:11:34 PM
A large part of the problem is that there were two laws.
The written Law = Law of God = always theLaw in Greek.
The oral law = manmade "improvements " alwats written as law in Greek.
or
Quite a few times Paul is ridiculing the works of the oral law.
But he praises the written Law.
Law without works is dead is the written law.
"the" is added so the verse is fluent English or doctine.
So:
Faith + written Law = Life
Faith + nothing = death
Faith + oral law is death
Figuring out when your translation has a misleading "the" will clear up a lot of misunderstanding.
I am still perplexed by the distinction of "law" and " the law". Not sure what is meant by oral law? Is it the unwritten law that Paul mentions in Romans 2:12-15. It is the scriptural record where to word "law" is sometimes used and "the law" at other times.
Looking at every verse in the book of Romans in the literal translations we find that "the law" is not always rendered as "the law". Some times it is just "law" and other times "the law?. So the word cannot be used in place of the other or always rendered "the law" although it is found that way in most translations. And it is just natural for us to speak of "the law" in every day usage.
God is the Creator of law. All is of God (Rom. 11:36, I Cor. 8:6, I Cor. 11:12, 2Co 5:18) therefore all laws are of God, both physical and spiritual. Laws are required for the coherent functioning of all that is. IMO there are various aspects to the word "LAW". Even the physical universe functions on the bases of laws of physics and science, i.e. law of gravity, Newton's laws of motion, behavior of atomic and sub-atomic particles, etc.
In the NT law (G3551 nomos) has various aspects. It is described as "law". or "the law" or "the law of"?(i.e. the law of the husband). Why did the Apostles, especially Paul and John sometimes refer to "law" and other times to "the law". Are they indicating to us that there is a difference? When we find just the word law (without the definite article) , it is referring to the universal law of God. When we find "the law" (with the definite article) in the NT it usually is referring to the Law of Moses given at Mount Sinai. To see this distinction, one needs to use a translation based on the original writings such as the Concordant Literal version and Young's Literal translation. Widely used translations such as NKJV, AV, NIV, etc. do not make a distinction between "law" and "the law".
Spiritual law always existed. Love (agape) is of God. When law is violated, there are consequences. There never was a time when there was no law. Adam and Eve sinned. Sin is the transgression of law - spiritual law (the original does not have "the law" like popular translations). When one reads the first chapter of Romans, it is evident that people transgressed God's universal Law long before "the law" came into effect.
Just as the physical laws exist, so to with the spiritual laws since the creation. Breaking a spiritual law results in sin (missing the mark). Cain slew Able and committed sin.
This is a complex subject. On rare occasions especially in the book of Romans it is not always clear IMO.
For example in :
Rom 2:12 (CLV) for whoever sinned without the law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged. 13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified 14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,
Rom. 5: 13 (CLV) for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;
And some verses are clear:
Rom 6: 14 (CLV) For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!
Gen_26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Perhaps it would be helpful to research every verse where law is mentioned, examine the context and explore its meaning in light of this type of approach. It would be tedious task.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter (law of Moses), but of the spirit (God's universal law of love): for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death (law of Moses), written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit (God's universal law of love) be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation (law of Moses)be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness (God's universal law of love) exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect (law of Moses), by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious (law of Moses), much more that which remaineth (God's universal law of love) is glorious.
I must be missing something. :dontknow:
QuoteI am still perplexed by the distinction of "law" and " the law". Not sure what is meant by oral law? Is it the unwritten law that Paul mentions in Romans 2:12-15. It is the scriptural record where to word "law" is sometimes used and "the law" at other times.
God's Law was written down by Moses in the first 5 books.
The oral law, was memorized and written down long after the last Apostle died was like a commentaty or interpretation. That's what Jesus called the heavy yoke.
Example: God's written law simply states "no servile work on Sabbath".
Then the ancient teachers started debating "What's the definition of work?". Must include carrying something. Today some Jews don't even have a cigarette lighter in their pocket on Sabbath day, because it means carrying and carrying is work. Or flick a light switch because that's like kindling a fire 4000 years ago, and is work. That sort of stuff.
QuoteAnd it is just natural for us to speak of "the law" in every day usage
And that's exactly why 'the' is inserted. But sometimes it hides something vital.
In Gal 3:2-11 Paul talking bad about, even ridiculing law.
Likewise he's in the first half of verse 10.
And then suddenly in the second half of verse 10, everyone
not following 'the law' is cursed. Meaning 'the law' suddenly is very good. Is Paul contradicting himself?
It's no longer possible to post pictures here on TM so: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/gal3.pdf
Please go to verse 10, and seach for the two times Law is mentioned in that verse. Now look very closely for "OF-THE LAW". It's the only time Paul is positive about a/the law.
The rest of the verses Paul is negative and everytime Greek reads OF-LAW
The same type of thing is used in Hebrew.
Example: Satan means accuser or slanderer. There are millions of them, because it's a job in court.
When it's about that fallen angel, the serpent, devil etc it's haSatan. That prefix makes all the difference.
Link to a picture (https://ibb.co/7Sx03gn)
Quote from: darryl on October 27, 2023, 08:44:57 AM
Quote from: joeteekay on October 24, 2023, 08:19:19 PM
Jesus and His 12 Apostles taught that the keeping of of the law was paramount. Apostle Paul taught that faith and grace was paramount and superseded the law and its demands.
Jesus taught 'agape love' fulfilled all the law
These are two different statements saying the same thing, which I fully agree with.
For me, in it's simplest terms, people are either of the old covenant of law or the new covenant of grace at any given point in time (a moment). But within the span of time, an hour, a day a week, people can switch between the two covenants.
What I have come to understand is: if you are fully of the covenant of grace, loving, forgiving, compassionate, kind, all the attributes of the Holy Spirit at all times, then the old covenant of law is fulfilled, all the laws of the old covanant are obeyed automatically, we do not have to know the law from the old covenant, as long as we know the law of the new covenant all the old are obeyed, in other words, all are fulfilled which is what I believe Jesus meant when He said He has come to fulfill the law, which I believe goes beyond just making it complete.
It's like in a courtroom, you can be of the law which codemns and punishes any wrong doing OR you can be of grace and forgive any wrong doing.
NO I am not saying to forgive those who do wrong here and let them go, simply because they still have the means to do evil, they are still in the body of flesh, but when we die, we are no longer in that body of flesh which makes it possible to do evil, but by leaving that means behind when we die, their spirit can now be forgiven.
This physical realm is where the lesser light rules (the law), in the spiritual realm it is the greater light that rules (grace). We are who bring the greater light to this world of darkness.
My :2c: