what was before creation

[claypot]

Being that Jesus is the Word and it is the word that spoke all of creation into existance, it seems Jesus Christ was manifest even before the foundation of the world.

In the beginning.......... Jesus is the beginning.....

[joeteekay]

Hi WhiteWings,

I believe before Christ there was only God the Father.

CHB

I agree completely with the posts of CHB. Everything we know of or can conceive of had a beginning. But not so with God the Father. He has always been.
There is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is  (Concordant Literal Version 1  Cor.8:6).

All is out of Him and through Him and for Him. (Concordant Literal Version Rom.  11:36).


In other words, the absolute source or origin of all, the course of all and the goal of all is the one God, the Father. "Before the ages (Rom 16:25)" He was all in Himself, for "all is out of Him".

No matter how far backward we may project our thoughts, the "one God, the Father" is there, even though there be nothing else. And, whatever else may have had a "beginning", He had none,

It should be noted that many verses in the bible have the words ?in the beginning?. But its not accurate. Many go to Genesis l: 1 for "the" beginning, yet the definite article "the" is not found in the original here, therefore it most certainly does not refer to the beginning in the absolute'. Others will quote John 1: 1 as a reference to "the" beginning, yet we find no article.in ?the original. In both instances, the ''beginning'' is simply in reference to the commencement or beginning of the subject that is being considered. Genesis 1: 1 is the ''beginning''. of the physical universe, while. John 1: 1 speaks of the beginning ?of revelation, yet, in another instance is there reference to the'' beginning .in the absolute, but simply ''a'' beginning of the subject under consideration. There are many examples of this.

"Before the eons," God, the Father, was all in Him self, because His Word tells us that "all is out of Him". Hence, for all who really receive the Scriptures as God's Word, the question is forever settled as to ''Godhood'' and the source of "all things''. "There is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is".

This is no theory or tradition, no dogma or doctrine of man-it is simply taking God at His Word and believing what He says. And, regardless of how much criticism is thrown at this, believing the Word of God just as it is given-"there is one God, the Father, out of ?Whom all is''.

No matter how far backward we may project our thoughts, the "one God, the Father" is there, even though there be nothing else. And, whatever else there is had a "beginning", He had none.

[claypot]

I like to think the first words of our Bibles say something like "In a beginning........." so I see what you are saying Joe. I am not arguing that God is not our cause, I am just seeking thoughts on something that our thoughts can't reach it seems and that is: what was before God.

I find it fascinating that we can even conceive of such a question but we can. Why would God allow such a thing? He created these brains which are worlds of their own. These brains can think which turn them into minds. These minds create thought and emotions and questions.

To repeat myself, I think my question which leads to the only possible conclusion that God has always existed,  has to do with space and time which seem to be created realities. Once we are outside these created realities then we are in a world of unimaginable realities.

Something can't come from nothing so God has always been. God is. Mind blowing, just mind blowing. Since we are made of God material or God stuff then we have always been, maybe not in this form but every particle of our make up has always been in existance. Again, amazing!

claypot

[claypot]

I did not finish my thoughts on 'In a beginning'

I see that God creates many beginnings. Jesus is the Beginning.

[joeteekay]

I like to think the first words of our Bibles say something like "In a beginning........." so I see what you are saying Joe. I am not arguing that God is not our cause, I am just seeking thoughts on something that our thoughts can't reach it seems and that is: what was before God.

I find it fascinating that we can even conceive of such a question but we can. Why would God allow such a thing? He created these brains which are worlds of their own. These brains can think which turn them into minds. These minds create thought and emotions and questions.

To repeat myself, I think my question which leads to the only possible conclusion that God has always existed,  has to do with space and time which seem to be created realities. Once we are outside these created realities then we are in a world of unimaginable realities.

Something can't come from nothing so God has always been. God is. Mind blowing, just mind blowing. Since we are made of God material or God stuff then we have always been, maybe not in this form but every particle of our make up has always been in existance. Again, amazing!

claypot

I agree.  :dsunny:

[Mickiel]

This topic is amazing. Everything in our creation can be found in the other creations. It's all the same ingredients. The physical things. But consciousness is far differing, we can't find anything that leads to consciousness. It's just there. And we can only be conscious of, those things we are conscious of.

[Mickiel]

The creation of consciousness cannot be traced or linked to anything. I think even the location of consciousness in the body is a misnomer. We tend to think that consciousness is located inside the head, because we peer outward and feel like it's behind our eyes. But that is not true, there is nothing inside our heads except skin and bones. Consciousness  is not skin and bones , it's a breath that God blew into the body and is just there. Somewhere.

[claypot]

Wowzer, now we're getting somewhere. Mickiel, amazing words. I would love for you to expand on them.

Consciousness is the all?

[claypot]

Consciousness births consciousness.

It always has existed, that's what flabbergasts me to no end. I just have to get time and space out of my head I suppose.

Now I know why Moses could only see the backside of God. To see the IS is just too mind blowing! But I hope and believe that after exiting these amazing bodies the questions I entertain won't be as frustrating as they are now.

cp

[Mickiel]

Consciousness births consciousness.

Quote:

I think consciousness does birth consciousness. With God himself I think it's differing, I think he has seven consciousness or spirits. Any one of them may have birthed another in him, I am not sure, but at least one of them has eternity, maybe all of them. We can only speculate, but they are veteran spirits, and gave birth to the 24 elders and Christ, so they are powerful spirits, powerful consciousness.

[Mickiel]

It's exciting to speculate and wise to always base it on scripture. Revelation reveals God has seven spirits, and we can say that a Spirit is also a Consciousness , so it's not far fetched to say God may have seven consciousness. Which is astounding and would explain some of his power and longevity. He is complete as a life can be.

[jugghead]

I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.

We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.

The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"

It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described

My  :2c:

[Mickiel]

I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.

We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.

The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"

It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described

My  :2c:

Interesting.

[joeteekay]

I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.

We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.

The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"

It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described

My  :2c:

I am not sure what your point is. The physical creation is time, space and material matter. All this was created by God the Father who is independent of the physical and dwells in eternity, always existed and will always exist. All the physical will eventually pass away, only spirit remaining.

And I am not sure what you mean by "growing in a state of existence".

My  :2c:

[claypot]

Growing in a state of existence. I like it. It resonates with something within me. It describes what is occuring without using time and space although 'growing' might suggest time but maybe not.

I see time and space as so ingrained or hardwired into our consciousness that we just can't escape it. Maybe time and space is completely erased when we shed these mortal coils so that it's not even a consideration.

To say God has seven consciousness' limits God to me. Maybe you can explain that a bit more?

[Mickiel]

The Bible views seven as being complete not limiting. But the seven conscious is a theory of mine, speculation only. Because I think most things that have a Spirit has a Consciousness, God has seven consciousness, so I think it's entirely possible 7 minds then.

[Mickiel]

Or you can say 7 ways God expresses himself. Or 7 ways of thought. Such as wisdom. Wisdom is a powerful mental way of God.

[Mickiel]

 If you look at Galatians and the fruit of the spirit, they are powerful ways of Consciousness , of thinking. Joy, Peace, love and so on. They are also behavior. They are modes of judgement that God uses to judge and to rule by. In other words, modes of conscious thinking.

[claypot]

I also see seven as completeness so that makes sense.

To repeat myself, I think our default is so strong that it blinds us to the bigger picture for the most part. Our default or hardwiring restricts us within time and space realities. When we reboot (die and rise again) I'm thinkiing we will be in a reality the likes we can't even imagine and that rebooted phase of life will have no time and space limitations. A timeless and limitless existence will be our native home.

So hard to explain but I hope to tap your thoughts and the thoughts of others more here. I can't get enough of this thinking outside the box thoughts and I really think God approves of our searching.

cp

[Mickiel]

I personally still see time in eternity, it just has no end. Time is also measurement. I still see it's use in eternity.i mean in eternity if I saw you and knew I had seen you earlier, what am I to say? I saw you yesterday? A few hours ago? Just the other moment? No matter what I say, I saw you in an eternity that can be measured.

[claypot]

My only fear if you are correct is that I wonder if I will be forever frustrated that something always existed and how can that be?

In other words, if time exists as we see it now then there will always be a 'before' won't there?

So when contemplating God won't we always be wondering what His relationship is with time? Is He outside of it? If so, what is that realm like?

[claypot]

He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

What do you think about how God views us? You asked about meeting me in eternity and knowing we met before, how to express that?

Does God see us as babies and adults at the same time? Is that possible?

[Mickiel]

In eternity we will have totally differing modes of thought, and we will be able to consider things far better. But we may never know how God is eternal. Once again I don't think eternity means no time, it rather, in my view, means time has no end. I don't see anything wrong with time.

[Mickiel]

He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

What do you think about how God views us? You asked about meeting me in eternity and knowing we met before, how to express that?

Does God see us as babies and adults at the same time? Is that possible?

I think God views us as children, and as we grow  his view of us grows.

[jugghead]

I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.

We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.

The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"

It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described

My  :2c:

I am not sure what your point is. The physical creation is time, space and material matter. All this was created by God the Father who is independent of the physical and dwells in eternity, always existed and will always exist. All the physical will eventually pass away, only spirit remaining.

And I am not sure what you mean by "growing in a state of existence".

My  :2c:

I will say this, there is nothing wrong with seeing the concept of time as we do, i am just saying, i myself can view things out of the context of time simply because I do not view it as time, I view it as movement, in which with that movement, it can be associated with growing.

I see things as matter, space and energy, and it is this energy that causes movement, while at the same time causes changes, just like ice to water to stream from the energy of heat, which can be viewed as our own journey in the Spirit, ice (stillness), water (flows), steam (rises)

Which can be associated with being still in this world of constant movement, also flowing in a world that can be constantly stagnant, and rising out of the understandings of the confines of the mind.

I don't mean to sound crass, but would you limit God to a certain way of thinking? If we are being created in His image, why should I limit mine?

But again, these are just MY thoughts, no one has to take them seriously, I just have found that they have drastically changed my heart from one of condemnation through law into a heart of forgiveness through grace.

Blessings