hey gang,
i'm on a very unique voyage here so i need your help via input.
what was before creation? seriously. if we say we just can't go there then I ask why?
here is what I am seeing yet i can't quite put it in words.
there is no 'before creation' yet from our point of view, there is. we are born into time and space but we came from somewhere else. we are born into a 'life' that has a beginning and end and we are given a brain that can almost 'see' beyond the perimeters. when we shed these mortal coils we possibly burst out into life/Jesus/God the Father.
I still wonder how something (we call God) could always just exist but again, I think this is a trick of my carnal mind.
Anyway, any thoughts?
Claypot
This reminds me of a quote I like:
The further back you look the further forward you will see
which I believe is just another way of saying:
before anything was, there was only God/Love
therefore
looking forward, again there is only God/Love
but also that we existed in God before we were created a physical being and then we come to understand that we once again exist in God along with being a physical being, which I see as; the physical element is the body and we are the Spirit in the body, in other words, we have become the Tabernacle of God,
my :2c:
I too think about this a lot. God is the beginning but he has no beginning, it's like our thoughts on this topic, we can start thinking about it , lay it aside only to puck back up on it later, but it has no later and we got nowhere the last time, but the last time is always like the first time, so the beginning of wisdom really had no solid foundation , so it's like a circle, we think we got in it and got somewhere, but that was the illusion, we just think we got somewhere, but we're in this forever, so how far can we get on a road that's endless?
God is the beginning but he has no beginning, so God is something that he is not. It's like a circle , what goals in understanding can I make when I discover that knowledge is a never ending story. That has an excitement of its own, that I have forever to learn that I never started learning in the spirit realm but I can see a start in the physical realm. Life is truly amazing, were we alive when God first started thinking about giving us birth? Alive in his mind , a seed in his awesome consciousness. This stuff is next to impossible. I like trying to lift these weights in my mind. One thing we can inherit from God is endless concepts of things we gave limits to, so isn't a concept of a love that grows always because that's what it's supposed to do. Wow. Peace that grows because that's really what a source is supposed to do on levels that they should behave. You take a step from the front door and your at the back door and another step your back at the front. Are these levels of walking and thinking access to avenues that are available. Wow the future holds a lot for us.
Posted Mickiel
"I too think about this a lot. God is the beginning but he has no beginning, it's like our thoughts on this topic, we can start thinking about it , lay it aside only to puck back up on it later, but it has no later and we got nowhere the last time, but the last time is always like the first time, so the beginning of wisdom really had no solid foundation , so it's like a circle, we think we got in it and got somewhere, but that was the illusion, we just think we got somewhere, but we're in this forever, so how far can we get on a road that's endless?
God is the beginning but he has no beginning, so God is something that he is not. It's like a circle , what goals in understanding can I make when I discover that knowledge is a never ending story. That has an excitement of its own, that I have forever to learn that I never started learning in the spirit realm but I can see a start in the physical realm. Life is truly amazing, were we alive when God first started thinking about giving us birth? Alive in his mind , a seed in his awesome consciousness. This stuff is next to impossible. I like trying to lift these weights in my mind. One thing we can inherit from God is endless concepts of things we gave limits to, so isn't a concept of a love that grows always because that's what it's supposed to do. Wow. Peace that grows because that's really what a source is supposed to do on levels that they should behave. You take a step from the front door and your at the back door and another step your back at the front. Are these levels of walking and thinking access to avenues that are available. Wow the future holds a lot for us."
A very interesting thought collection :thumbsup:
For me I could never wrap my mind around the idea that the Source could exist without another Source creating Him. Then the question was who created the Source that created the Source that created the Source and it never ends. Then I guess it comes down to either the Source created himself at a certain time or the Source always was - and our mind in the 3d world cannot comprehend that idea because our minds are infiltrated in the time dimension. The human mind is compelled to believe that there had to be a time when the Source was first made aware of His self. Although He could have still existed before that time I suppose in a state of sleep before awakening. And there's also the idea in the true beginning there was nothing and this nothingness desired to be which spontaneously created the Source which then becomes aware and this awareness would be the beginning in a Biblical sense. Or maybe the Source was just a seed in this nothingness and therefore He has always existed...I don't know - this type of thinking boggles my mind... :doh:
Yes it boggles my mind as well. I think the Bible does suggest in Psalms that God increases his beauty and holiness , adding to it. I don't have my Bible with me but it states "Thou deck thyself with Holiness and beauty. Really interesting to consider this. We can assume he was already holy and beautiful, so he increases it. You know, God creating at least parts of himself. It says he decks himself with holiness , kind of like a human putting on new clothes. But God is adding layers of holiness. He increases his beauty, we can assume he was already beautiful. And that would be safe assumption. I can see God not wanting to always just look the same. You know the Bible suggest he does not change, but I think that means his character condiments, not so much how he appears daily. Who wants to always look the same? I don't think God is that boring.
Even what God is must, I mean must be super exciting, so when God makes an entrance it has to be visually stunning. And whatever kind of entrance he made to begin our wlife must have been out of sight. When he and Jesus started creating I mean they really really indulged themselves. But to try to imagine what came before that, it's like listening to a CD that has played through and it's just spinning on nothing. Playing parts of the album that's not there. An entirely new language and sound.
Truly new dimensional and out of sight Jack!
thanks for responses.
here is my further train of thought:
'we are' means something (God) has always existed because something (us, creation) can't come from nothing.
what i find fascinating is the fact that there was never nothingness. something always existed.
even if this is a trick of our brains which will die, it still is to me unimaginable that something always existed. after our brains die will we be free of the time and space box? probably but will the question of the ultimate origen of all just be gone?
something has always existed.....hmmmmmm. amazing thought/reality. to me it puts a whole new perspective on God and our lives here on this blue planet. Astronauts say that they have gotten a whole new perspective and appreciation for this earth when they viewed it from space. They say it is a whole different ballgame. I feel like I am approaching the same feeling when viewing God from outside of space/time and even typical Bible talk.
I don't think the physical world always existed. I think the scriptures calling God a creator has it right, he has the ability to create using instaneous Fiat , or things from scratch. That's what a beginning is, the first start of life. Or at least that particular kind of life he's beginning. So God can create a Sun and then call it the first one. So he holds the power of origins. He can all it a first take and it really is that. And reality needs a power than can be that. Do that.
Quote from: Mickiel on September 17, 2020, 07:35:37 PM
I don't think the physical world always existed. I think the scriptures calling God a creator has it right, he has the ability to create using instaneous Fiat , or things from scratch. That's what a beginning is, the first start of life. Or at least that particular kind of life he's beginning. So God can create a Sun and then call it the first one. So he holds the power of origins. He can all it a first take and it really is that. And reality needs a power than can be that. Do that.
Amen! ...All matter is under the law of dissolution.. is falling apart, so it cannot have always been. And it is impossible there be nothing, as something and everything cannot come from nothing. (lol)
So there must be an energy or force behind and beyond matter. And, I am not sure why, but I just know that force or energy hAs to be perfect, or it too would fade away. And I figure that force hAs to be intelligence. And Life itself. So what does that make imperfection? ?Missing the mark? (hamartia, translated sin).
This, to me, is PROOF of UR/CU! Since obviously the ?dilemma? is just how does He create genuinely able to think and reason beings, AND, keep paradise/perfection intact?! I guess you include in the original garden of life, a visible option of imperfection/straying.. and let it run its course (only intervening a time or two to prevent humanity?s self destruction, the inevitable ruin/apocalypse so early on (in infancy). And of course to build in the remedy! The rescue and redemption (Glory!)
The PROOF being, since He Himself put that visible option out there - and created the ability to make choices, etc. - in effect creating evil - albeit sort of indirectly. Would, or could, He allow even ONE to perish as a result of it? I think not. :cloud9: :girlheart:
Besides ?perfect? makes no mistakes, etc. To lose even one, cannot be said to be ?perfect?. The ?end? result of all this (history proving straying cannot ever work out well/succeed) can onLy be the best one possible.
:Peace2:
Here's what I mean by everything always being. I know that this earth and everything on/in it was created but think about the 'material' used to create everything.
Everything is made out of God stuff. There is and was no other material available! we are all made out of God material. God material is eternal. Every single particle, every manifestation of a spiritual nature is all of God.
Every blade of grass is 100% God, physically and spiritually.
I like to use this analogy: take a drop of water out of the ocean. The drop is not the ocean because the ocean is the whole body of water but the drop is made up of 100% ocean. It is all ocean but not THE ocean.
We are 'drops' of God.
Claypot
"One half of the cerebrum, the part of the brain that controls muscle functions and also controls speech, thought, emotions, reading, writing, and learning. The right hemisphere controls the muscles on the left side of the body, and the left hemisphere controls the muscles on the right side of the body."
John 14:10-11; Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who lives in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Otherwise, believe because of the works themselves.
If the Father never spoke, there would be nothing, and everything that has been created was created and is maintained by his will. So if he doesn't express himself, then is there anything to express? And what is the Father expressing other than what he has created? Where does the Father get his inspiration for everything that has been created? Unless the two are one.
John 1:1-2; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Proverbs 8:22-23; The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways, for the sake of his works. Before the present age he founded me, in the beginning.
Wisdom, love, truth, all existed before creation, as God's first works. Then God created the heavens and the earth was brought about through water, like a child coming into the world and like how water falls down from the sky. The earth worships God through the heavens. Through the earth, God's wisdom, love and truth is all made known to the heavens above. Everything God has made is exceedingly good.
Hebrews 9:26; Otherwise, he would have had to suffer many times since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared one time, at the end of the ages, for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Christ appeared at the end of the ages to reconcile all things and put away sin. At the end of Noah's age all flesh was judged and the world perished, but through the arc two of each kind was preserved, like a seed (which is duel like the heavens and earth). So God told Noah and his sons to, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth." Just like he told man and woman in Genesis 1:28, before Noah.
Ecclesiastes 1:4; A generation goes and a generation comes, and the earth stands into eternity.
The sun that rises and the winds that go around in their circuits all call on the truth that was before them and rules over them.
Ecclesiastes 1:9; What is that which has happened? It is that which will happen! And what is that which has been done? It is that which will be done. And there is nothing novel under the sun.
Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God, but God's kingdom is within you and at the end of the book of Revelation, God makes his dwelling with humans, (ἀνθρώπων, anthrōpōn). The end of Revelation seems like the beginning of things all over again, in my opinion.
The Truth perishes in the earth, its death brings judgement, Mercy and Truth kiss, Righteousness looks down from heaven and Faithfulness springs up from the ground, and then everything goes around again, as it always has. Maybe?
Otherwise, what was before wisdom? Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and with people. Before he increased, he emptied himself to take on the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men. After his death, he inherited everything.
If there was a before, before this wisdom. Then wouldn't that mean there was a different God, who produced a different wisdom? What is wise, is only wise according to the truth. And if the truth is an expression of God, then how can there be another God?
:Chinscratch:
I can imagine God looking to entertain us. Okay if he lets me get to first base, I can then ask about second. If he lets me ask about second, then that opens the door for third. So okay God, what is third base? What's up under it? Okay so let's just say you let me get this far, so why did you let me get this far? So what's the requirements to getting me home? Who else is involved in this? Okay so it's mankind against everything else? Come on now I just know Your God and all this is rigged? Reality is rigged. Well I'm just kidding but even if we get real , there can always be a before, but to avoid infinite regression there was a before creation. I mean that would be quite something.
It's like opening that crack in reality and looking for something differing. Okay we created Frankenstein , but now we create a woman. Now that's even more interesting. We get to that next level , and now we need to look back to go forward. Creation opened a door to more. And now is asking for more.
Quote from: claypot on September 19, 2020, 04:32:10 PM
Here's what I mean by everything always being. I know that this earth and everything on/in it was created but think about the 'material' used to create everything.
Everything is made out of God stuff. There is and was no other material available! we are all made out of God material. God material is eternal. Every single particle, every manifestation of a spiritual nature is all of God.
Every blade of grass is 100% God, physically and spiritually.
I like to use this analogy: take a drop of water out of the ocean. The drop is not the ocean because the ocean is the whole body of water but the drop is made up of 100% ocean. It is all ocean but not THE ocean.
We are 'drops' of God.
Claypot
Yes!
I think one of the best ways to serve is to bear witness to the truth. It's just a beautiful way to spend time. And it's so many differing ways to do it.so many fulfilling roles to get going in.
As I was reading through these posts, so many thoughts come to mind, but I would like to give this perspective:
Think of an infant, when does that infant become self aware? Is it with it's first memory? But then, we can also understand that an infant can remember things without being self aware. It's mother, it's father, food, drink, etc.
Now think about this, does the infant become self aware when something happens that has an impact on itself and because of that impact, it CHOOSES to remember it.
This is how I truly believe God works in our lives, that He has an impact (or even revelation, if you choose to use that word) on our lives and we MAKE THE CHOICE or even more so, have NO CHOICE but to remember it, thus becoming self aware and then becoming aware of a source which leads us to asking questions.
We have started our journey of understanding which by no means limits that understanding simply because, if God is infinite and He is the manifestation of that Word, can understanding ever end? ..... I myself do not believe so.
I myself believe this physical existence is just the beginning, it is our infancy, and thus becomes our beginning and our end until we cross over to; continue our education.
:banana: :2c:
:friendstu: Good to see you back CP, long time no see, I've missed you! He is all that was from the beginning, however I think He was trying to show me something with a vision He gave me in worship, that He called, "chaos", but then life got the way and I never followed up on it. The thought that came with it was, that He created everything out of this "chaos", which was not the bad connotation we would would normally associate with it. BTW; it looked like a swirling black universe. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 23, 2020, 11:54:43 PM
:friendstu: Good to see you back CP, long time no see, I've missed you! He is all that was from the beginning, however I think He was trying to show me something with a vision He gave me in worship, that He called, "chaos", but then life got the way and I never followed up on it. The thought that came with it was, that He created everything out of this "chaos", which was not the bad connotation we would would normally associate with it. BTW; it looked like a swirling black universe. Blessings.....
:thumbsup:
good thoughts in this thread
"In the beginning"
That's the beginning of the story of mankind, earth, universe.
Before that many things already existed.
God obviously is one of them
Job 38:6-7 show angels/sons of God witnessed creation of this planet.
The Bible tells the story from the beginning to the end of mankind.
Just like the beginning the end isn't really the end, because when the Bible 'ends' everlasting life starts for humanity.
Christ is their beginning and end.
Christ played a massive role during creation. He's the alpha/beginning.
Christ is also the Omega/end of mankind. But not in the sense that kills them all. The end that Christ brings is actually the beginning eternal bliss.
The Bible is the story of mankind entering earth until exiting it through the gate of eternity and Christ's vital role in that event.
:thumbsup:
good stuff !...thanks, all ! :dsunny:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 24, 2020, 02:07:55 PM
"In the beginning"
That's the beginning of the story of mankind, earth, universe.
Before that many things already existed.
God obviously is one of them
Job 38:6-7 show angels/sons of God witnessed creation of this planet.
The Bible tells the story from the beginning to the end of mankind.
Just like the beginning the end isn't really the end, because when the Bible 'ends' everlasting life starts for humanity.
Christ is their beginning and end.
Christ played a massive role during creation. He's the alpha/beginning.
Christ is also the Omega/end of mankind. But not in the sense that kills them all. The end that Christ brings is actually the beginning eternal bliss.
The Bible is the story of mankind entering earth until exiting it through the gate of eternity and Christ's vital role in that event.
Hi WhiteWings,
You said, "Christ is the beginning". I agree with what you have said, the Bible says that Christ is the first of creation. The way I see this is, Christ came from God the Father, kind of like a child comes from it's mother. I believe this is why Christ is referred to as "the
only begotten son of God". Nothing, nor anything else came out of God like Christ did. I believe it happened like a birth.
I have enjoyed reading all of the posts. It is hard to image that God has always existed. Everything we see has a beginning and an end.
CHB
Hi Cardinal and all, I do miss all these great discussions but I'm a selfish guy so I seem to get back here when I really get stumped. You all are always a great help and encouragment!
I think I know that we just cannot know or understand the reality that God always existed. I think it's how our brains are hardwired but I think that when we are free of these brains won't we still wonder about the ultimate origen of God or, if there is no origen, how can that be?
Imagine, no origen! Amazing.
Once introduced to this concept of time I don't see how we won't always wonder about what's before 'before' and what's after 'after'.
I understand that once we leave these brains in the dust a whole new world will be open to us and I think there won't be time and space and that kind of answers my thoughts a bit.
I find this kind of thinking exhilerating but I know it's not for everyone. Thanks for all the responses!
Claypot
Quote from: CHB on September 25, 2020, 10:41:04 PM
Hi WhiteWings,
You said, "Christ is the beginning". I agree with what you have said, the Bible says that Christ is the first of creation.
I had to think about this thread and especially your post when just I received an email that starts with "There is no BC". :banana:
Interesting comment Whitewings,
could you pease elaborate on "There is no BC" ?
It's not as interesting as you might hope for :laugh:
If you look in a history book you'll see that for example king David became king in about 1010BC.
BC means Before Christ as you know.
But if Jesus took part in de creation process He existed even before Adam.
He can never be the Alpha/beginning if half of history happened before His existence.
Ok, one could say baby Jesus was the beginning of the salvation process (which in a way He was); but I think it goes even further back.
For Trinitarians BC is an even more impossible concept because it would equal "before God existed".
That said, obviously I do understand BC refers to the birth of baby Jesus. :Peace2:
Hi WhiteWings,
I believe before Christ there was only God the Father.
CHB
Being that Jesus is the Word and it is the word that spoke all of creation into existance, it seems Jesus Christ was manifest even before the foundation of the world.
In the beginning.......... Jesus is the beginning.....
Quote from: CHB on September 27, 2020, 08:19:52 PM
Hi WhiteWings,
I believe before Christ there was only God the Father.
CHB
I agree completely with the posts of CHB. Everything we know of or can conceive of had a beginning. But not so with God the Father. He has always been.
There is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is (Concordant Literal Version 1 Cor.8:6).
All is out of Him and through Him and for Him. (Concordant Literal Version Rom. 11:36).
In other words, the absolute source or origin of all, the course of all and the goal of all is the one God, the Father. "Before the ages (Rom 16:25)" He was all in Himself, for "all is out of Him".
No matter how far backward we may project our thoughts, the "one God, the Father" is there, even though there be nothing else. And, whatever else may have had a "beginning", He had none,
It should be noted that many verses in the bible have the words ?in the beginning?. But its not accurate. Many go to Genesis l: 1 for "the" beginning, yet the definite article "the" is not found in the original here, therefore it most certainly does not refer to the beginning in the absolute'. Others will quote John 1: 1 as a reference to "the" beginning, yet we find no article.in ?the original. In both instances, the ''beginning'' is simply in reference to the commencement or beginning of the subject that is being considered. Genesis 1: 1 is the ''beginning''. of the physical universe, while. John 1: 1 speaks of the beginning ?of revelation, yet, in another instance is there reference to the'' beginning .in the absolute, but simply ''a'' beginning of the subject under consideration. There are many examples of this.
"Before the eons," God, the Father, was all in Him self, because His Word tells us that "all is out of Him". Hence, for all who really receive the Scriptures as God's Word, the question is forever settled as to ''Godhood'' and the source of "all things''. "There is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is".
This is no theory or tradition, no dogma or doctrine of man-it is simply taking God at His Word and believing what He says. And, regardless of how much criticism is thrown at this, believing the Word of God just as it is given-"there is one God, the Father, out of ?Whom all is''.
No matter how far backward we may project our thoughts, the "one God, the Father" is there, even though there be nothing else. And, whatever else there is had a "beginning", He had none.
I like to think the first words of our Bibles say something like "In a beginning........." so I see what you are saying Joe. I am not arguing that God is not our cause, I am just seeking thoughts on something that our thoughts can't reach it seems and that is: what was before God.
I find it fascinating that we can even conceive of such a question but we can. Why would God allow such a thing? He created these brains which are worlds of their own. These brains can think which turn them into minds. These minds create thought and emotions and questions.
To repeat myself, I think my question which leads to the only possible conclusion that God has always existed, has to do with space and time which seem to be created realities. Once we are outside these created realities then we are in a world of unimaginable realities.
Something can't come from nothing so God has always been. God is. Mind blowing, just mind blowing. Since we are made of God material or God stuff then we have always been, maybe not in this form but every particle of our make up has always been in existance. Again, amazing!
claypot
I did not finish my thoughts on 'In a beginning'
I see that God creates many beginnings. Jesus is the Beginning.
Quote from: claypot on September 29, 2020, 03:52:11 PM
I like to think the first words of our Bibles say something like "In a beginning........." so I see what you are saying Joe. I am not arguing that God is not our cause, I am just seeking thoughts on something that our thoughts can't reach it seems and that is: what was before God.
I find it fascinating that we can even conceive of such a question but we can. Why would God allow such a thing? He created these brains which are worlds of their own. These brains can think which turn them into minds. These minds create thought and emotions and questions.
To repeat myself, I think my question which leads to the only possible conclusion that God has always existed, has to do with space and time which seem to be created realities. Once we are outside these created realities then we are in a world of unimaginable realities.
Something can't come from nothing so God has always been. God is. Mind blowing, just mind blowing. Since we are made of God material or God stuff then we have always been, maybe not in this form but every particle of our make up has always been in existance. Again, amazing!
claypot
I agree. :dsunny:
This topic is amazing. Everything in our creation can be found in the other creations. It's all the same ingredients. The physical things. But consciousness is far differing, we can't find anything that leads to consciousness. It's just there. And we can only be conscious of, those things we are conscious of.
The creation of consciousness cannot be traced or linked to anything. I think even the location of consciousness in the body is a misnomer. We tend to think that consciousness is located inside the head, because we peer outward and feel like it's behind our eyes. But that is not true, there is nothing inside our heads except skin and bones. Consciousness is not skin and bones , it's a breath that God blew into the body and is just there. Somewhere.
Wowzer, now we're getting somewhere. Mickiel, amazing words. I would love for you to expand on them.
Consciousness is the all?
Consciousness births consciousness.
It always has existed, that's what flabbergasts me to no end. I just have to get time and space out of my head I suppose.
Now I know why Moses could only see the backside of God. To see the IS is just too mind blowing! But I hope and believe that after exiting these amazing bodies the questions I entertain won't be as frustrating as they are now.
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 02, 2020, 02:44:04 AM
Consciousness births consciousness.
Quote:
I think consciousness does birth consciousness. With God himself I think it's differing, I think he has seven consciousness or spirits. Any one of them may have birthed another in him, I am not sure, but at least one of them has eternity, maybe all of them. We can only speculate, but they are veteran spirits, and gave birth to the 24 elders and Christ, so they are powerful spirits, powerful consciousness.
It's exciting to speculate and wise to always base it on scripture. Revelation reveals God has seven spirits, and we can say that a Spirit is also a Consciousness , so it's not far fetched to say God may have seven consciousness. Which is astounding and would explain some of his power and longevity. He is complete as a life can be.
I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.
We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.
The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"
It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described
My :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on October 02, 2020, 03:50:28 AM
I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.
We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.
The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"
It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described
My :2c:
Interesting.
Quote from: jugghead on October 02, 2020, 03:50:28 AM
I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.
We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.
The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"
It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described
My :2c:
I am not sure what your point is. The physical creation is time, space and material matter. All this was created by God the Father who is independent of the physical and dwells in eternity, always existed and will always exist. All the physical will eventually pass away, only spirit remaining.
And I am not sure what you mean by "growing in a state of existence".
My :2c:
Growing in a state of existence. I like it. It resonates with something within me. It describes what is occuring without using time and space although 'growing' might suggest time but maybe not.
I see time and space as so ingrained or hardwired into our consciousness that we just can't escape it. Maybe time and space is completely erased when we shed these mortal coils so that it's not even a consideration.
To say God has seven consciousness' limits God to me. Maybe you can explain that a bit more?
The Bible views seven as being complete not limiting. But the seven conscious is a theory of mine, speculation only. Because I think most things that have a Spirit has a Consciousness, God has seven consciousness, so I think it's entirely possible 7 minds then.
Or you can say 7 ways God expresses himself. Or 7 ways of thought. Such as wisdom. Wisdom is a powerful mental way of God.
If you look at Galatians and the fruit of the spirit, they are powerful ways of Consciousness , of thinking. Joy, Peace, love and so on. They are also behavior. They are modes of judgement that God uses to judge and to rule by. In other words, modes of conscious thinking.
I also see seven as completeness so that makes sense.
To repeat myself, I think our default is so strong that it blinds us to the bigger picture for the most part. Our default or hardwiring restricts us within time and space realities. When we reboot (die and rise again) I'm thinkiing we will be in a reality the likes we can't even imagine and that rebooted phase of life will have no time and space limitations. A timeless and limitless existence will be our native home.
So hard to explain but I hope to tap your thoughts and the thoughts of others more here. I can't get enough of this thinking outside the box thoughts and I really think God approves of our searching.
cp
I personally still see time in eternity, it just has no end. Time is also measurement. I still see it's use in eternity.i mean in eternity if I saw you and knew I had seen you earlier, what am I to say? I saw you yesterday? A few hours ago? Just the other moment? No matter what I say, I saw you in an eternity that can be measured.
My only fear if you are correct is that I wonder if I will be forever frustrated that something always existed and how can that be?
In other words, if time exists as we see it now then there will always be a 'before' won't there?
So when contemplating God won't we always be wondering what His relationship is with time? Is He outside of it? If so, what is that realm like?
He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
What do you think about how God views us? You asked about meeting me in eternity and knowing we met before, how to express that?
Does God see us as babies and adults at the same time? Is that possible?
In eternity we will have totally differing modes of thought, and we will be able to consider things far better. But we may never know how God is eternal. Once again I don't think eternity means no time, it rather, in my view, means time has no end. I don't see anything wrong with time.
Quote from: claypot on October 02, 2020, 08:21:12 PM
He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
What do you think about how God views us? You asked about meeting me in eternity and knowing we met before, how to express that?
Does God see us as babies and adults at the same time? Is that possible?
I think God views us as children, and as we grow his view of us grows.
Quote from: joeteekay on October 02, 2020, 05:32:18 AM
Quote from: jugghead on October 02, 2020, 03:50:28 AM
I myself do not see it as time AND space, simply because time is just a measurement of movement through space.
We exist in a constant state of physical existence, its like like seeing ourselves as matter that moves through space, just like the earth, and we use the earths orbit around the sun (year), as well as its rotation (day) and call it time when in fact it is only measuring the movement of matter IN space (rotation) and matter moving through space (orbit), the whole concept of time is based on these two movements of matter.
The biggest thing for me was when I stopped viewing us as "moving through time" and starting seeing it through a different perspective of "growing in a state of existence"
It took years for my own mind to grasp this, but it brings me so much peace, it can't be described
My :2c:
I am not sure what your point is. The physical creation is time, space and material matter. All this was created by God the Father who is independent of the physical and dwells in eternity, always existed and will always exist. All the physical will eventually pass away, only spirit remaining.
And I am not sure what you mean by "growing in a state of existence".
My :2c:
I will say this, there is nothing wrong with seeing the concept of time as we do, i am just saying, i myself can view things out of the context of time simply because I do not view it as time, I view it as movement, in which with that movement, it can be associated with growing.
I see things as matter, space and energy, and it is this energy that causes movement, while at the same time causes changes, just like ice to water to stream from the energy of heat, which can be viewed as our own journey in the Spirit, ice (stillness), water (flows), steam (rises)
Which can be associated with being still in this world of constant movement, also flowing in a world that can be constantly stagnant, and rising out of the understandings of the confines of the mind.
I don't mean to sound crass, but would you limit God to a certain way of thinking? If we are being created in His image, why should I limit mine?
But again, these are just MY thoughts, no one has to take them seriously, I just have found that they have drastically changed my heart from one of condemnation through law into a heart of forgiveness through grace.
Blessings
Maybe Jesus was on to something when He said something like 'This is eternal life that they might know the Father.'
According to this, eternal doesn't have anything to do with time but rather knowing.
Great words everyone
Quote from: claypot on September 29, 2020, 03:54:12 PM
I did not finish my thoughts on 'In a beginning'
I see that God creates many beginnings. Jesus is the Beginning.
I know many think differently but I too think Jesus was ?a? beginning.. ?first born of all creation?.
I believe before any act of creation, God the Father could see all and every possibility and potentiality.. from its first to last. And created an only begotten / only straight out from Him one that all else is to exist within and through whom all and everything else was created.
The end result being all rational beings being sort of ?trinities? of God Most High and His Spirit/Presence, and the Son ?forever preeminent? and the individual (in comparison a speck.. but called by God a ?jewel in the day He makes up His jewels?.
I also agree with Joeteekay?s description of ?beginning?...
And likely a lot more in this thread but haven?t read more.. :Peace2:
I can't even comprehend a no space or time realm but it's exciting trying to.
Actually in John 1:1-7, it was Jesus who created all things, I am sure under God's direction. But it reveals just how powerful he is. I think Jesus "Proceeded forth and came from God", sounds like a birth to me.
What do you think of this thought of mine:
Everything is God. Now I think there is some new age religion that teaches this but I think not in the way I mean. Think about it, there is no other original material other than what I call 'God stuff'.
Jesus is a birth of God but of course Jesus is extremely special and unique.
What doesn't proceed forth and come from God?
Again, I like to use an analogy of the drop from the ocean. The drop contains everything that is the ocean yet it is not the ocean because the ocean is the whole body of water.
We are 'drops' of God. We are not God but there is nothing in our make up that is not God.
Make sense? cp
marie, claypot, sounds sensible to me. :dsunny:
CHB
We live in a 3D universe, with 4t dimension called time.
In the 3 dimensions we can walk back and forth, in time we can only go forward.
But there is something like the string theory, that already discovered 10 dimensions. Prepare for a headache when reading that stuff... :-)
The point is that with so many dimensions, lots of possibilities open. For example walking trough time as you walk through a house. Left, right, up, down and everything in between.
Those things exist, but are out of our reach.
Not claiming I fully understand the string theory, far faaar from, but I think it opens possibilities like a 1000 years is like a day.
Time can't exist without matter. (at least not in our universe)
3d, 4th dimension, string theory.................seem to be creations of this brain of ours. We are so limited by this brain. It's like we are hardwired to go so far and no further. Again, for me, it's exhilerating to attempt to go to the limit and that limit for me gets me to a place where time and space do not exist. Just plain and simple do not exist. We are brainwashed or hardwired to believe in time and space and Jesus seems to be calling us out of this belief into another belief, belief in Him. 'He' is with us and beyond where our brains can reach.
At one time many believed the world was flat. It just was. No other belief existed UNTIL someone was given the thought that maybe the earth is not flat. Now the belief that the world is flat doesn't even exist in our minds. This is how it will probably be with the question I have put forth here about what was before God. With further illumination that question will vanish.
All your thoughts are still so appreciated.
cp
Now this ought to blow your mind ...
Since God contains all knowledge and information (knows everything), what if all memories, what we call a memory, is for God ... a manifestation of a physical moment, so to say that ... to travel through time (as our mind can comprehend it) what if, what we could actually do is, not so much travel through time, but travel through the memories of God, which can go along with string theory, with multiple, if not infinite dimensions.
Has anyone ever seen the movie "Interstellar"? There is one part where it shows every moment of time in a three dimensional space. I found it fascinating.
Memories or thoughts of God. Great thoughts Jugghead.
Something just came to me the other day and I'll probably be banned from here once you hear it (not really, I don't think).
I see that there is a realm outside of what we percieve as time and space. Because of this what we believe here (that all things will be made new as our Lord tells us) makes sense because once we are done here within these walls of time and space we will be filled with God (God will be all in all) and move on into 'BEING'.
Ok, my new thought is that good and evil won't even exist in the next phase of living because those realities can only exist in this realm of space and time where there are certain rules which I don't believe will exist in our next phase.
Any thoughts?
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 07, 2020, 04:06:54 PM
3d, 4th dimension, string theory.................We are brainwashed or hardwired to believe in time and space a
I wrote the opposite.
Quote from: claypot on October 10, 2020, 03:22:11 AM
Memories or thoughts of God. Great thoughts Jugghead.
Something just came to me the other day and I'll probably be banned from here once you hear it (not really, I don't think).
I see that there is a realm outside of what we percieve as time and space. Because of this what we believe here (that all things will be made new as our Lord tells us) makes sense because once we are done here within these walls of time and space we will be filled with God (God will be all in all) and move on into 'BEING'.
Ok, my new thought is that good and evil won't even exist in the next phase of living because those realities can only exist in this realm of space and time where there are certain rules which I don't believe will exist in our next phase.
Any thoughts?
cp
I think only good will exist, I think it would have to , considering God is good. Can you imagine a place without evil?
CHB
Posted by Jugghead
"Now this ought to blow your mind ...
Since God contains all knowledge and information (knows everything), what if all memories, what we call a memory, is for God ... a manifestation of a physical moment, so to say that ... to travel through time (as our mind can comprehend it) what if, what we could actually do is, not so much travel through time, but travel through the memories of God, which can go along with string theory, with multiple, if not infinite dimensions.
Has anyone ever seen the movie "Interstellar"? There is one part where it shows every moment of time in a three dimensional space. I found it fascinating."
And if this is the case, then our free-will is the ability to choose the God memory/timeline from the multiple God memories/timelines available which would allow God to remember it from a 3d framework and therefore experience the event (somewhat) physically that we choose; which would logically explain how He shares in our pain and joy.
But we must be careful not to tread into new age thought as some new agers would suggest that the purpose of life is just to give experiences to God, no matter what they are. But I would affirm that if we are travelling through God's memories; some of those memories' sole purpose is for the freedom of choice, and it is His wish that we do not choose them. Remember to choose Life.
Greetings CHB, yes good will exist because God is good so that's a given but good won't need to be recognized, it will BE.
Sorry Whitewings, I didn't mean to misinterpret your words. Will be more careful in future.
The world outside of this wonderful creation of our Father just draws me like nothing else. I wonder why.
I think that this topic is difficult because what our vision is of a realm where time and space do not exist is so unique to each of us that it is hard to impossible to explain it in words to each other.
The interstellar movie thoughts, Jugghead, are fascinating but I can't get my head around it. I think I saw the movie and liked it but I'll have to look into it again sometime.
cp
I don't remember if I posted it in my thread, but I once wrote a short article on "good, bad, and righteousness" simply understood in the example of "thou shall not steal"
That it is bad to steal
It is good to not steal
But what is righteous is "to give"
Which is what I come to understand what (I believe) Paul meant when he said that "righteousness does not come through the law", we can be a good person by not stealing, but we only become a righteous person by giving, which I also see in what Paul meant when he said the law was our tutor, it could teach us "good and bad" but it fell short in teaching us what was righteous, which leads me to
"Righteousness can only come through Christ"
my :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on October 12, 2020, 12:51:44 AM
I don't remember if I posted it in my thread, but I once wrote a short article on "good, bad, and righteousness" simply understood in the example of "thou shall not steal"
That it is bad to steal
It is good to not steal
But what is righteous is "to give"
Which is what I come to understand what (I believe) Paul meant when he said that "righteousness does not come through the law", we can be a good person by not stealing, but we only become a righteous person by giving, which I also see in what Paul meant when he said the law was our tutor, it could teach us "good and bad" but it fell short in teaching us what was righteous, which leads me to
"Righteousness can only come through Christ"
my :2c:
Jughead,
I would really like to read this article you mentioned. I really liked what you said above.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 17, 2020, 08:22:32 PM
Quote from: jugghead on October 12, 2020, 12:51:44 AM
I don't remember if I posted it in my thread, but I once wrote a short article on "good, bad, and righteousness" simply understood in the example of "thou shall not steal"
That it is bad to steal
It is good to not steal
But what is righteous is "to give"
Which is what I come to understand what (I believe) Paul meant when he said that "righteousness does not come through the law", we can be a good person by not stealing, but we only become a righteous person by giving, which I also see in what Paul meant when he said the law was our tutor, it could teach us "good and bad" but it fell short in teaching us what was righteous, which leads me to
"Righteousness can only come through Christ"
my :2c:
Jughead,
I would really like to read this article you mentioned. I really liked what you said above.
CHB
Hi CHB, here is a direct link to it
https://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/tidbits-of-jugghead/msg214094/#msg214094
777 DROW -S
i LOVE what you shared here !! I do get what you are saying ... and it is refreshing to hear you speak from your heart of these BEAUTIFUL things pertaining to GOD .
Having to describe things is difficult at best
But I see God as a Grand Master filling in all the spaces , but we lack the ability to think like God does .........
That said , I can only hope to share this little bit of what helps me to cope with the way things are discussed .
we are given the ability to reap what we sow , like being compared to trees , with times and seasons that can produce
seeds and growth to the flesh or to the Spirit both are being made known in the earth as we become more aware of our own doings .
I to believe GOD IS AND WAS AND WILL ALWAYS BE GOD , and as main source and an energy like a great grid of complexity , fine tuned to the many different needs to be met .
LOVE has always been the motivator of such a beautiful creation and is yet to be made known and felt fully till the perfect and complete plan is finished in its entirety .
I do not think we can even go into the place of true unveiling until we are free from the burden of the flesh completely.
For me , as I can tell , we get glimpses and powerful motivators of truth to kind of push us along in the right direction when we do seek to see the Lords face in sincerity .
Again for me , I do not think it is going to be anything like most expect it to be , including my own lack .
I found proverbs 8 and 9 helpful in the way creation was formed and by whom they were made before the world was .
GOD IN HIS WISDOM has kept the veil over many things , not only to protect us, but also that mystery yet to be made known .
and in that GLORY OF GOD to be expressed in its totality ,by reaching every tiny detail .
for me it is a impossible task to even describe , that only GOD has a right to express . I am so happy to wait on the LORD and excited to to SEE HIM in all His glory and splendor .............
Glory to God in His love and infinite Wisdom !!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by 777 DROW-S
"God is light. - Light is energy. - Energy is consciousness.
God is the collective consciousness of all.
God is EVERYTHING and thus EVERYTHING is God. "I will walk 'in' them", says the Lord. We are 'Co-heirs' because this world was created for the spiritual man (the 'Christ' (2nd Adam))...The overcomer. "I have overcome the world" (beast system/carnal/flesh etc).
God is love. Love creates, hate destroys, hence Love (GOD) is the 'Creator' (Creative Power).
God is 'spirit' (not physical). God/Love/Wisdom/Truth...God is 'eternal'...Always exists, for God is also 'LIFE'.
Who can argue that life on earth is like walking into a huge library where all the books are already written and the information is just there waiting on us to discover it? There is nothing new under the sun and all is of God.
God animates (gives life) to our bodies to grow our souls (being). "In Him we live and move and have our 'being'"."
Some thought-provoking ideas here. Could you expound on your statement that "God is the collective consciousness of all"
I have heard this idea in new age circles - my former life - but from a Christian perspective I would wonder if that statement somehow alludes that if God is the collective consciousness of all - then there would be an aspect of God that is subject to change, when Biblically speaking God never changes?
I've been thinking that it's the 'miracles' that are where it's at. I think the miracles are the norm. What we call miracles are normal activity in the realm that Jesus kept telling us about. They are hints of the life all around us, the normal life of 'is'.
Maybe you all can help me by citing some of the more mysterious sayings of our Lord like He is the Bread, where I go you cannot come yet, you have seen me then you have seen the Father.............
Can you imagine coming from a place way higher than this place and then trying to explain it to another?
What was before creation......
Thinking this thought can really put things into perspective. It can put the election into perspective. God has been running this show for a long time! He's done an incredible job so far hasn't He? He will continue to do so. He was before this minor creation and He will be after. He "IS' during this aspect of life. We have nothing to worry about. How many companies or countries have survived over 6000 years and are still in business? I still see the leaves in the trees, the rivers flowing, deer running, a myriad of amazing life in the oceans, the sun 'rising' and 'setting' and so on.
What was 'before' creation? God.
What IS? God.
What is 'after' creation? God.
Let your mind dwell on this question and peace will come.
THY will be done as it has always been and is and will forever be done!!!!!
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 31, 2020, 03:52:44 PM
What was before creation......
Thinking this thought can really put things into perspective. It can put the election into perspective. God has been running this show for a long time! He's done an incredible job so far hasn't He? He will continue to do so. He was before this minor creation and He will be after. He "IS' during this aspect of life. We have nothing to worry about. How many companies or countries have survived over 6000 years and are still in business? I still see the leaves in the trees, the rivers flowing, deer running, a myriad of amazing life in the oceans, the sun 'rising' and 'setting' and so on.
What was 'before' creation? God.
What IS? God.
What is 'after' creation? God.
Let your mind dwell on this question and peace will come.
THY will be done as it has always been and is and will forever be done!!!!!
cp
Amen! He ?is perfect? and complete! What He is doing, and how and why, is Amazingly Glorious..
The thing that gets me.. I have great difficulty getting my head around the idea of no time.. or outside of time.. no matter if I try, it just does not compute in my head..
This post, above quoted, is SO beautifully said! :cloud9: