what was before creation

[claypot]

hey gang,

i'm on a very unique voyage here so i need your help via input.

what was before creation? seriously. if we say we just can't go there then I ask why?

here is what I am seeing yet i can't quite put it in words.

there is no 'before creation' yet from our point of view, there is. we are born into time and space but we came from somewhere else. we are born into a 'life' that has a beginning and end and we are given a brain that can almost 'see' beyond the perimeters. when we shed these mortal coils we possibly burst out into life/Jesus/God the Father.

I still wonder how something (we call God) could always just exist but again, I think this is a trick of my carnal mind.

Anyway, any thoughts?

Claypot

[jugghead]

This reminds me of a quote I like:

The further back you look the further forward you will see

which I believe is just another way of saying:
before anything was, there was only God/Love
therefore
looking forward, again there is only God/Love

but also that we existed in God before we were created a physical being and then we come to understand that we once again exist in God along with being a physical being, which I see as; the physical element is the body and we are the Spirit in the body, in other words, we have become the Tabernacle of God,

my  :2c:

[Mickiel]

I too think about this a lot. God is the beginning but he has no beginning, it's like our thoughts on this topic, we can start thinking about it , lay it aside only to puck back up on it later, but it has no later and we got nowhere the last time, but the last time is always like the first time, so the beginning of wisdom really had no solid foundation , so it's like a circle, we think we got in it and got somewhere, but that was the illusion, we just think we got somewhere, but we're in this forever, so how far can we get on a road that's endless?

God is the beginning  but he has no beginning, so God is something that he is not. It's like a circle , what goals in understanding can I make when I discover that knowledge is a never ending story. That has an excitement of its own,  that I have forever to learn that I never started learning in the spirit realm but I can see a start in the physical realm. Life is truly amazing, were we alive when God first started thinking about giving us birth? Alive in his mind , a seed in his awesome consciousness. This stuff is next to impossible. I like trying to lift these weights in my mind. One thing we can inherit from God is endless concepts of things we gave limits to, so isn't a concept of a love that grows always because that's what it's supposed to do. Wow. Peace that grows because that's really what a source is supposed to do on levels that they should behave. You take a step from the front door and your at the back door and another step your back at the front. Are these levels of walking and thinking access to avenues that are available. Wow the future holds a lot for us.

[Andrew]

Posted Mickiel

"I too think about this a lot. God is the beginning but he has no beginning, it's like our thoughts on this topic, we can start thinking about it , lay it aside only to puck back up on it later, but it has no later and we got nowhere the last time, but the last time is always like the first time, so the beginning of wisdom really had no solid foundation , so it's like a circle, we think we got in it and got somewhere, but that was the illusion, we just think we got somewhere, but we're in this forever, so how far can we get on a road that's endless?
God is the beginning  but he has no beginning, so God is something that he is not. It's like a circle , what goals in understanding can I make when I discover that knowledge is a never ending story. That has an excitement of its own,  that I have forever to learn that I never started learning in the spirit realm but I can see a start in the physical realm. Life is truly amazing, were we alive when God first started thinking about giving us birth? Alive in his mind , a seed in his awesome consciousness. This stuff is next to impossible. I like trying to lift these weights in my mind. One thing we can inherit from God is endless concepts of things we gave limits to, so isn't a concept of a love that grows always because that's what it's supposed to do. Wow. Peace that grows because that's really what a source is supposed to do on levels that they should behave. You take a step from the front door and your at the back door and another step your back at the front. Are these levels of walking and thinking access to avenues that are available. Wow the future holds a lot for us."

A very interesting thought collection  :thumbsup:

For me I could never wrap my mind around the idea that the Source could exist without another Source creating Him. Then the question was who created the Source that created the Source that created the Source and it never ends. Then I guess it comes down to either the Source created himself at a certain time or the Source always was - and our mind in the 3d world cannot comprehend that idea because our minds are infiltrated in the time dimension. The human mind is compelled to believe that there had to be a time when the Source was first made aware of His self. Although He could have still existed before that time I suppose in a state of sleep before awakening. And there's also the idea in the true beginning there was nothing and this nothingness desired to be which spontaneously created the Source which then becomes aware and this awareness would be the beginning in a Biblical sense. Or maybe the Source was just a seed in this nothingness and therefore He has always existed...I don't know - this type of thinking boggles my mind... :doh:       

[Mickiel]

Yes it boggles my mind as well. I think the Bible does suggest in Psalms that God increases his beauty and holiness , adding to it. I don't have my Bible with me but it states "Thou deck thyself with Holiness and beauty. Really interesting to consider this. We can assume he was already holy and beautiful, so he increases it. You know, God creating at least parts of himself. It says he decks himself with holiness , kind of like a human putting on new clothes. But God is adding layers of holiness. He increases his beauty, we can assume he was already beautiful. And that would be safe assumption. I can see God not wanting to always just look the same. You know the Bible suggest he does not change, but I think that means his character condiments, not so much how he appears daily. Who wants to always look the same? I don't think God is that boring.

Even what God is must, I mean must be super exciting, so when God makes an entrance it has to be visually stunning. And whatever kind of entrance he made to begin our   wlife must have been out of sight. When he and Jesus started creating I mean they really really indulged themselves. But to try to imagine what came before that, it's like listening to a CD that has played through and it's just spinning on nothing. Playing parts of the album that's not there. An entirely new language and sound.

Truly new dimensional and out of sight Jack!

[claypot]

thanks for responses.

here is my further train of thought:
'we are' means something (God) has always existed because something (us, creation) can't come from nothing.

what i find fascinating is the fact that there was never nothingness. something always existed.

even if this is a trick of our brains which will die, it still is to me unimaginable that something always existed. after our brains die will we be free of the time and space box? probably but will the question of the ultimate origen of all just be gone?

something has always existed.....hmmmmmm. amazing thought/reality. to me it puts a whole new perspective on God and our lives here on this blue planet. Astronauts say that they have gotten a whole new perspective and appreciation for this earth when they viewed it from space. They say it is a whole different ballgame. I feel like I am approaching the same feeling when viewing God from outside of space/time and even typical Bible talk.

[Mickiel]

I don't think the physical world always existed. I think the scriptures calling God a creator has it right, he has the ability to create using instaneous Fiat , or things from scratch. That's what a beginning is, the first start of life. Or at least that particular kind of life he's beginning. So God can create a Sun and then call it the first one. So he holds the power of origins. He can all it a first take and it really is that. And reality needs a power than can be that. Do that.

[marie glen]

I don't think the physical world always existed. I think the scriptures calling God a creator has it right, he has the ability to create using instaneous Fiat , or things from scratch. That's what a beginning is, the first start of life. Or at least that particular kind of life he's beginning. So God can create a Sun and then call it the first one. So he holds the power of origins. He can all it a first take and it really is that. And reality needs a power than can be that. Do that.

Amen! ...All matter is under the law of dissolution.. is falling apart, so it cannot have always been. And it is impossible there be nothing, as something and everything cannot come from nothing. (lol)
   So there must be an energy or force behind and beyond matter. And, I am not sure why, but I just know that force or energy hAs to be perfect, or it too would fade away. And I figure that force hAs to be intelligence. And Life itself. So what does that make imperfection? ?Missing the mark? (hamartia, translated sin).

This, to me, is PROOF of UR/CU! Since obviously the ?dilemma? is just how does He create genuinely able to think and reason beings, AND, keep paradise/perfection intact?! I guess you include in the original garden of life, a visible option of imperfection/straying.. and let it run its course (only intervening a time or two to prevent humanity?s self destruction, the inevitable ruin/apocalypse so early on (in infancy). And of course to build in the remedy! The rescue and redemption (Glory!)
    The PROOF being, since He Himself put that visible option out there - and created the ability to make choices, etc. - in effect creating evil - albeit sort of indirectly. Would, or could, He allow even ONE to perish as a result of it? I think not. :cloud9: :girlheart:

Besides ?perfect? makes no mistakes, etc. To lose even one, cannot be said to be ?perfect?. The ?end? result of all this (history proving straying cannot ever work out well/succeed) can onLy be the best one possible.
:Peace2:

[claypot]

Here's what I mean by everything always being. I know that this earth and everything on/in it was created but think about the 'material' used to create everything.

Everything is made out of God stuff. There is and was no other material available! we are all made out of God material. God material is eternal. Every single particle, every manifestation of a spiritual nature is all of God.

Every blade of grass is 100% God, physically and spiritually.

I like to use this analogy: take a drop of water out of the ocean. The drop is not the ocean because the ocean is the whole body of water but the drop is made up of 100% ocean. It is all ocean but not THE ocean.

We are 'drops' of God.

Claypot

[guest6667]

"One half of the cerebrum, the part of the brain that controls muscle functions and also controls speech, thought, emotions, reading, writing, and learning. The right hemisphere controls the muscles on the left side of the body, and the left hemisphere controls the muscles on the right side of the body."

John 14:10-11;   Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who lives in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Otherwise, believe because of the works themselves.

If the Father never spoke, there would be nothing, and everything that has been created was created and is maintained by his will. So if he doesn't express himself, then is there anything to express? And what is the Father expressing other than what he has created? Where does the Father get his inspiration for everything that has been created? Unless the two are one.

John 1:1-2;   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Proverbs 8:22-23;  The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways, for the sake of his works. Before the present age he founded me, in the beginning.

Wisdom, love, truth, all existed before creation, as God's first works. Then God created the heavens and the earth was brought about through water, like a child coming into the world and like how water falls down from the sky. The earth worships God through the heavens. Through the earth, God's wisdom, love and truth is all made known to the heavens above. Everything God has made is exceedingly good.

Hebrews 9:26;   Otherwise, he would have had to suffer many times since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared one time, at the end of the ages, for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ appeared at the end of the ages to reconcile all things and put away sin. At the end of Noah's age all flesh was judged and the world perished, but through the arc two of each kind was preserved, like a seed (which is duel like the heavens and earth). So God told Noah and his sons to, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth." Just like he told man and woman in Genesis 1:28, before Noah.

Ecclesiastes 1:4;   A generation goes and a generation comes, and the earth stands into eternity.

The sun that rises and the winds that go around in their circuits all call on the truth that was before them and rules over them.

Ecclesiastes 1:9;   What is that which has happened? It is that which will happen! And what is that which has been done? It is that which will be done. And there is nothing novel under the sun.

Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God, but God's kingdom is within you and at the end of the book of Revelation, God makes his dwelling with humans, (ἀνθρώπων, anthrōpōn). The end of Revelation seems like the beginning of things all over again, in my opinion.

The Truth perishes in the earth, its death brings judgement, Mercy and Truth kiss, Righteousness looks down from heaven and Faithfulness springs up from the ground, and then everything goes around again, as it always has. Maybe?

Otherwise, what was before wisdom? Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and with people. Before he increased, he emptied himself to take on the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men. After his death, he inherited everything. 

If there was a before, before this wisdom. Then wouldn't that mean there was a different God, who produced a different wisdom? What is wise, is only wise according to the truth. And if the truth is an expression of God, then how can there be another God?
:Chinscratch:

[Mickiel]

 I can imagine God looking to entertain us. Okay if he lets me get to first base, I can then ask about second. If he lets me ask about second, then that opens the door for third. So okay God, what is third base?  What's up under it?  Okay so let's just say you let me get this far, so why did you let me get this far? So what's the requirements to getting me home?  Who else is involved in this? Okay so it's mankind against everything else? Come on now I just know Your God and all this is rigged? Reality is rigged.  Well I'm just kidding but even if we get real , there can always be a before, but to avoid infinite regression there was a before creation. I mean that would be quite something.

It's like opening that crack in reality and looking for something differing. Okay we created Frankenstein , but now we create a woman. Now that's even more interesting. We get to that next  level , and now we need to look back to go forward. Creation opened a door to more. And now is asking for more.

[GodIsLove]

Here's what I mean by everything always being. I know that this earth and everything on/in it was created but think about the 'material' used to create everything.

Everything is made out of God stuff. There is and was no other material available! we are all made out of God material. God material is eternal. Every single particle, every manifestation of a spiritual nature is all of God.

Every blade of grass is 100% God, physically and spiritually.

I like to use this analogy: take a drop of water out of the ocean. The drop is not the ocean because the ocean is the whole body of water but the drop is made up of 100% ocean. It is all ocean but not THE ocean.

We are 'drops' of God.

Claypot

Yes!

[Mickiel]

I think one of the best ways to serve is to bear witness to the truth. It's just a beautiful way to spend time. And it's so many differing ways to do it.so many fulfilling roles to get going in.

[jugghead]

As I was reading through these posts, so many thoughts come to mind, but I would like to give this perspective:

Think of an infant, when does that infant become self aware? Is it with it's first memory? But then, we can also understand that an infant can remember things without being self aware. It's mother, it's father, food, drink, etc.

Now think about this, does the infant become self aware when something happens that has an impact on itself and because of that impact, it CHOOSES to remember it.

This is how I truly believe God works in our lives, that He has an impact (or even revelation, if you choose to use that word) on our lives and we MAKE THE CHOICE or even more so, have NO CHOICE but to remember it, thus becoming self aware and then becoming aware of a source which leads us to asking questions.

We have started our journey of understanding which by no means limits that understanding simply because, if God is infinite and He is the manifestation of that Word, can understanding ever end?    .....     I myself do not believe so.

I myself believe this physical existence is just the beginning, it is our infancy, and thus becomes our beginning and our end until we cross over to; continue our education.

:banana:  :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :friendstu: Good to see you back CP, long time no see, I've missed you! He is all that was from the beginning, however I think He was trying to show me something with a vision He gave me in worship, that He called, "chaos", but then life got the way and I  never followed up on it. The thought that came with it was, that He created everything out of this "chaos", which was not the bad connotation we would would normally associate with it. BTW; it looked like a swirling black universe. Blessings.....

[jabcat]

:friendstu: Good to see you back CP, long time no see, I've missed you! He is all that was from the beginning, however I think He was trying to show me something with a vision He gave me in worship, that He called, "chaos", but then life got the way and I  never followed up on it. The thought that came with it was, that He created everything out of this "chaos", which was not the bad connotation we would would normally associate with it. BTW; it looked like a swirling black universe. Blessings.....

:thumbsup:

good thoughts in this thread

[WhiteWings]

"In the beginning"

That's the beginning of the story of mankind, earth, universe.
Before that many things already existed.
God obviously is one of them

Job 38:6-7 show angels/sons of God witnessed creation of this planet.

The Bible tells the story from the beginning to the end of mankind.
Just like the beginning the end isn't really the end, because when the Bible 'ends' everlasting life starts for humanity.
Christ is their beginning and end.
Christ played a massive role during creation. He's the alpha/beginning.
Christ is also the Omega/end of mankind. But not in the sense that kills them all. The end that Christ brings is actually the beginning eternal bliss.

The Bible is the story of mankind entering earth until exiting it through the gate of eternity and Christ's vital role in that event.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[darryl]

good stuff !...thanks, all ! :dsunny:

[CHB]

"In the beginning"

That's the beginning of the story of mankind, earth, universe.
Before that many things already existed.
God obviously is one of them

Job 38:6-7 show angels/sons of God witnessed creation of this planet.

The Bible tells the story from the beginning to the end of mankind.
Just like the beginning the end isn't really the end, because when the Bible 'ends' everlasting life starts for humanity.
Christ is their beginning and end.
Christ played a massive role during creation. He's the alpha/beginning.
Christ is also the Omega/end of mankind. But not in the sense that kills them all. The end that Christ brings is actually the beginning eternal bliss.

The Bible is the story of mankind entering earth until exiting it through the gate of eternity and Christ's vital role in that event.

Hi WhiteWings,

You said, "Christ is the beginning".  I agree with what you have said, the Bible says that Christ is the first of creation. The way I see this is, Christ came from God the Father, kind of like a child comes from it's mother. I believe this is why Christ is referred to as "the only begotten son of God". Nothing, nor anything else came out of God like Christ did. I believe it happened like a birth. 

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts. It is hard to image that God has always existed. Everything we see has a beginning and an end. 

CHB

[claypot]

Hi Cardinal and all, I do miss all these great discussions but I'm a selfish guy so I seem to get back here when I really get stumped. You all are always a great help and encouragment!

I think I know that we just cannot know or understand the reality that God always existed. I think it's how our brains are hardwired but I think that when we are free of these brains won't we still wonder about the ultimate origen of God or, if there is no origen, how can that be?

Imagine, no origen! Amazing.

Once introduced to this concept of time I don't see how we won't always wonder about what's before 'before' and what's after 'after'.

I understand that once we leave these brains in the dust a whole new world will be open to us and I think there won't be time and space and that kind of answers my thoughts a bit.

I find this kind of thinking exhilerating but I know it's not for everyone. Thanks for all the responses!

Claypot

[WhiteWings]

Hi WhiteWings,

You said, "Christ is the beginning".  I agree with what you have said, the Bible says that Christ is the first of creation.

I had to think about this thread and especially your post when just I received an email that starts with "There is no BC".  :banana:

[claypot]

Interesting comment Whitewings,
could you pease elaborate on "There is no BC" ?

[WhiteWings]

It's not as interesting as you might hope for  :laugh:

If you look in a history book you'll see that for example king David became king in about 1010BC.
BC means Before Christ as you know.
But if Jesus took part in de creation process He existed even before Adam.
He can never be the Alpha/beginning if half of history happened before His existence.
Ok, one could say baby Jesus was the beginning of the salvation process (which in a way He was); but I think it goes even further back.
For Trinitarians BC is an even more impossible concept because it would equal "before God existed".



That said, obviously I do understand BC refers to the birth of baby Jesus.  :Peace2:

[CHB]

Hi WhiteWings,

I believe before Christ there was only God the Father.

CHB