R.H. Charles: bring eschatology into harmony w/ Xtian theology of God

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup: 3 very good posts..

..The OT, also, I can't help thinking, is tough, because truth is tough.. is the iron rod that must rule.. No one can break truth, but only break self upon truth. Amen, no one can fulfill the high standard of truth but God! And Jesus the exact representation of His person.. whom God was pleased that His Spirit should dwell fully in, the one in whom He is well pleased.. the mystery of ages, Christ in you, our hope of glory.. The lamb without blemish.. that He should always have preeminence.. jesus the Firstborn, the mold, the prototype.. and we the vessels.. the rest of us.. humbled.. He is writing His law/truth/love/perfection on our hearts.

The UR verses from Romans (!) I think of Romans as the 'legal' epistle. And I'm starting to think, of Paul's letters it has the most UR verses(?) [Ananias told Paul he had been chosen to know the will of God (and to have seen Jesus). Acts 22?]

[rosered]

Amen! :thumbsup: 3 very good posts..

..The OT, also, I can't help thinking, is tough, because truth is tough.. is the iron rod that must rule.. No one can break truth, but only break self upon truth. Amen, no one can fulfill the high standard of truth but God! And Jesus the exact representation of His person.. whom God was pleased that His Spirit should dwell fully in, the one in whom He is well pleased.. the mystery of ages, Christ in you, our hope of glory.. The lamb without blemish.. that He should always have preeminence.. jesus the Firstborn, the mold, the prototype.. and we the vessels.. the rest of us.. humbled.. He is writing His law/truth/love/perfection on our hearts.

The UR verses from Romans (!) I think of Romans as the 'legal' epistle. And I'm starting to think, of Paul's letters it has the most UR verses(?) [Ananias told Paul he had been chosen to know the will of God (and to have seen Jesus). Acts 22?]

   David    and    Marie    :thumbsup:   blessing    and peace  in Jesus .

  You reminded me  of somthing    I consider  valuable .
  Its the written Word   and when the carnal mind [ focus is   on earthly things =death] reads the Bible  it is an enemy against the Spirit  of Life   and cannot be helped  except by faith in God   to change , conform  , rebirth  from out of death comes new Life in Christ .

I recall how Jesus said when you hear His voice [ the Spoken Word comes by faith in hearing what the Spirit  is saying [Life  &love  and UR message ]  born again of   Holy Spirit   with   the [  holy seed/ Word of God ]

  and the Living Word  moving and having its being [presence ] in you ...  the Power of  the resurrected [regenerated ] Life of Jesus  Christ living in you  and a part of  His body that   was and is  and  can never die .  to me the  Body of Christ is the Living Word /Bible  that judges all things in righteousness.

I see Jesus natural body dying on the cross , it was a body prepared for Him  by the Father  for death  , but also see   Jesus Christ  as  conceived of the Holy Spirit  when He was born !  what a prototype   revealed  to us !


His Spirit never died but was sent into sheol [ grave heart[s ]of the earth ]   for 3 days and nights before returning to the Father in great POWER  and authority over making everything  new [resurrection   from the dead body of Adam   that all are under ]

For me He took  death captive  into Himself [Lord of all  , dead and the living ]  and was destroying the works of satan/
   slander  in judgment and condemnation   and   in conditional love   from now on by His cross [it is finished ]    out with the old and in with the new  Way of forgiveness  of sins     ,   the old law exposed sin nature   as utterly sinful , the new way exposed the   sinless life in Christ by forgiveness  and unconditional  love ......  Romans 14 . 


1 Peter 2:2-3 EXB
As newborn babies want milk, you should want the ·pure [sincere; unadulterated] and ·simple [or spiritual] ·teaching [ milk;  probably referring to the word of God; see   1 Peter 1:23–25]. By it you can ·mature [grow; reach maturity] in your salvation, because you have already ·examined and seen [ tasted] how good the Lord is [Ps. 34:8] Taste and see that the Lord is good;
    blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.[ tasting the tree of Life ] ! 


1 Peter 1:23–25 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25     but the word of the Lord endures forever."

And this is the word that was preached to you.  I see it as  a sure WORD , not probable  by faith in God   by His own  Spirit of Life !  :dsunny:



I think of Jesus  telling his disciples [ students /followers]   He had meat they knew nothing of and it was to do the Will and heartfelt  desire   of Gods    working   that NONE  should perish  but have eternal life though Him ...
  Every knee will bow and tongue  confess the Lord Jesus  Christ ... Romans 14

Being under His  authority  , the rods of iron  [strength ]  , He convicts and chastens   and comforts  those whom He loves   without respecter of persons . 
  Though suffering  everyone  is made humble  from the pride of life   1 John 2

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world— the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life— is not from the Father but from the world.

17The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever....
 
taste not, handle not , touch not the things of the world ! , it pierces us though   the heart with many sorrows .

[marie glen]

Amen.. man's world, built by man, is built upon, and just about hides from so many, the glorious, beautiful world which God created (and is creating!) All in the pattern of life.. where all living looking to the light and the water for sustenance and being.. Flowers keeping their faces to the light whereby they live and grow..
   :dsunny:

[DavidFord]

Peter Tan, _The Spiritual World_ (2007), 144pp., 139 from the Appendix
http://johannministries.com/site/messages/book.html
It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it
removes the threat. No longer can the sinner be dangled over
the pit of hell. No longer can what Burn's called the
"hangmen's whip" of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked
over the sinner. But the kind of universalism in which I believe
has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be
all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have
it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. -William Barclay.

It is claimed that universalism does away with free will...what
is forgotten is that God has eternity to work in. It is not a
question of God, as it were, rushing a man into heaven. It is a
question of God using an eternity of persuasion and appeal
until the hardest heart breaks down and the most stubborn
sinner repents. -William Barclay.

I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of
God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when
God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24 28). For me,
this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of
the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has
defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further,
there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of
our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it
would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were
agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and
wiped out. But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father
- He is indeed Father more than anything else. No father
could be happy while there were members of his family for ever
in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the
disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father
can know is to have all of his family back home again.
-William Barclay.

[DavidFord]

Peter Tan, _The Spiritual World_ (2007),
144pp., 139 from the Appendix
http://johannministries.com/site/messages/book.html
It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it
removes the threat.  No longer can the sinner be dangled over
the pit of hell.  No longer can what Burn's called the
"hangmen's whip" of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked
over the sinner.  But the kind of universalism in which I believe
has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be
all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have
it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. -William Barclay.

It is claimed that universalism does away with free will...what
is forgotten is that God has eternity to work in.  It is not a
question of God, as it were, rushing a man into heaven.  It is a
question of God using an eternity of persuasion and appeal
until the hardest heart breaks down and the most stubborn
sinner repents. -William Barclay.

I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of
God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when
God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24 28).  For me,
this has certain consequences.  If one man remains outside of
the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has
defeated the love of God - and that is impossible.  Further,
there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of
our God.  If God was no more than a King or judge, then it
would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were
agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and
wiped out.  But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father--
He is indeed Father more than anything else.  No father
could be happy while there were members of his family for ever
in agony.  No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the
disobedient members of his family.  The only triumph a father
can know is to have all of his family back home again.
-William Barclay.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: absolutely!

[DavidFord]

Visions of The Spiritual World by Sadhu Sundar Singh - 1926
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
The Correction of Error
When people earnestly desire to live lives pleasing to God, the readjustment of their views and the renewal of their lives begin in this world.  Not only does the Spirit of God teach them directly, but in the secret chamber of their hearts they are helped by communion with the saints, who, unseen by them, are ever at hand to assist them towards the good.  But, as many Christian believers, as well as non-Christian seekers after truth, die while still holding false and partial views of truth, their views are corrected in the world of spirits, provided that they are not obstinately welded to their opinions, and are willing to learn, because neither in this world, nor in the next, does God, or any servant of His, force a man to believe anything against his will.

The Manifestation of Christ
I saw in a vision the spirit of an idolater, on reaching the world of spirits, begin at once to search for his god.  Then the saints said to him, "There is no god here save the One True God, and Christ, Who is His manifestation."  At this the man was a good deal astonished, but being a sincere seeker after truth, he frankly admitted that he had been in error.  He eagerly sought to know the correct view of truth, and asked if he might see the Christ.  Shortly after this Christ manifested Himself in a dim light to him, and to others who had newly arrived in the world of spirits, because at this stage they could not have endured a full exhibition of His glory, for His glory is so surpassing that even the angels look on Him with difficulty, and cover their faces with their wings (Isaiah vi. 2).  When He does reveal Himself to any one He takes into account the particular stage of progress to which that soul has attained, so He appears dimly, or in the fuller light of His glory, that the sight of Him may be endured.  So, when these spirits saw Christ in this dim but attractive light, they were filled with a joy and peace which is beyond our power to describe.  Bathed in the rays of His life-giving light, and with the waves of His love, which constantly flow out from Him, flowing over them, all their error was washed away.  Then with all their hearts they acknowledged Him as the Truth, and found healing, and, bowing in lowly adoration before Him, thanked and praised Him.  And the saints who had been appointed for their instruction also rejoiced over them.

[DavidFord]

_William Barclay:  A Spiritual Autobiography_ (1977), 65-67.  Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many Biblical commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament, "Barclay New Testament," and "The Daily Study Bible Series."  Cited at
http://webhome.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html
I am a convinced universalist.  I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.  In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism.  I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing.  Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God.  Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell.  He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained.  He did not believe in eternal _punishment,_ but he did see the possibility of eternal _penalty._  And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification. 

Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism.  First, he believed in it because of the _character of God._  "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery."  Second, he believed in it because of _the nature of evil._  Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all."  Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence.  Third, he believed in it because of _the purpose of punishment._  The purpose of punishment is always remedial.  Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness."  Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way. 

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation. 

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief.  Jesus said:  "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw _all_ men to myself" (John 12:32).  Paul writes to the Romans:  "God has consigned _all_ men to disobedience that he may have mercy on _all"_ (Rom. 11:32).  He writes to the Corinthians:  "As in Adam _all_ die, so also in Christ shall _all_ be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).  In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires _all_ men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for _all"_ (1 Tim 2:4-6).  The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word _all._

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to _eternal punishment,_ and the righteous to eternal life.  The Greek word for punishment is _kolasis,_ which was not originally an ethical word at all.  It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.  I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature _kolasis_ is never used of anything but remedial punishment.  The word for eternal is _aionios._  It means more than everlasting, for Plato-- who may have invented the word-- plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be _aionios._  The simplest way to out it is that _aionios_ cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God.  Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. 

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God.  I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work.  I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world.  I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe. 

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28).  For me this has certain consequences.  If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God-- and that is impossible.  Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God.  If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out.  But God is not only King and Judge, God is _Father_-- he is indeed Father more than anything else.  No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony.  No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family.  The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home.  The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love.  The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

[marie glen]

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation. 

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief.  Jesus said:  "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw _all_ men to myself" (John 12:32).  Paul writes to the Romans:  "God has consigned _all_ men to disobedience that he may have mercy on _all"_ (Rom. 11:32).  He writes to the Corinthians:  "As in Adam _all_ die, so also in Christ shall _all_ be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).  In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires _all_ men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for _all"_ (1 Tim 2:4-6).  The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word _all._

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to _eternal punishment,_ and the righteous to eternal life.  The Greek word for punishment is _kolasis,_ which was not originally an ethical word at all.  It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.  I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature _kolasis_ is never used of anything but remedial punishment.  The word for eternal is _aionios._  It means more than everlasting, for Plato-- who may have invented the word-- plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be _aionios._  The simplest way to out it is that _aionios_ cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God.  Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. 

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God.  I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work.  I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world.  I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe. 

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28).  For me this has certain consequences.  If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God-- and that is impossible.  Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God.  If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out.  But God is not only King and Judge, God is _Father_-- he is indeed Father more than anything else.  No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony.  No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family.  The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home.  The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love.  The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

Amen! Are these last paragraphs your thoughts or William Barclay's? Either way they are some very good (and biblical!) thoughts.

As for myself I like to read God's word(s) for myself and pray and study, etc. And read it like a child.. Straight forward. There's tons of metaphor (of course) but I'm not one looking for it in every word of God, and view that as somewhat dangerous, adding to and taking away from what He is actually saying/ what is actually written. I believe He is creating a literal paradise for all, which He has no problem at all of doing quite well.

[DavidFord]

Are these last paragraphs your thoughts or William Barclay's?

Barclay's.

[DavidFord]

"most people will not be 'saved' from afterlife punishment" -- https://youtu.be/cgeUgd3A4gY
All people are sons/daughters of Father God, and God strongly loves all his children.  Many people will experience chastisement/discipline in the afterlife.  I dunno what the proportion of those that have to undergo afterlife chastisement is, compared with those that don't undergo it.

Revelation 3:19 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/3.htm
"I rebuke and discipline those whom I love. 
Be zealous therefore and return."
Proverbs 13:24 (Peshi tta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/PRV/prv13.htm
He who spares his rod
hates his son;
but he who loves his son
disciplines him diligently.
Proverbs 3 (Peshi tta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/PRV/prv3.htm
11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD,
neither be weary of his corrections.
12 For whom the LORD loves he corrects,
even as a father corrects his son.

"The doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is that God's punishments have the two-fold righteous purpose of both justice and correction, resulting in ultimate reconciliation with Christ who has saved them from the jaws of death."
Sounds good.

"(Rom 5:18, 1 Cor 15:22)"
Romans 5:18 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English),
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/5.htm
In like manner therefore,
because of the offense of the one
there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men,
in the same way,
because of the righteousness of The One
there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men.

1 Corinthians 15 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_corinthians/15.htm
20 But now The Messiah is risen from among the dead
and is the first fruits of those who sleep. 
21 Just as by a man death came,
in this way also
by a man the dead come to life. 
22 For just as by Adam all people die,
in this way also by The Messiah they all live;
23 Each person in his order;
The Messiah was the first fruits;
after this, those who are The Messiah's at his arrival. 
24 And then the end will come,
when he will deliver The Kingdom to God The Father,
when he will destroy every Ruler and every Authority and all Powers.
25 For he is going to reign until all his enemies will be set under his feet, 
26 And the last enemy death shall be destroyed. 
27 For he brought all things to submission under his feet. 
But when it says, "All things are subjected to him",
it is understood that it excludes him who subjected all things to him. 
28 And when all is subjected to him,
then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him,
that God might be all in all.

[DavidFord]

'What is the Will of God?'   Several things, including:

1 Thessalonians 5:18 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-18.htm
Give thanks in everything,
for this is the will of God in Yeshua The Messiah among you.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-3.htm
For this is the will of God:
your holiness,
and that you be separate from all fornication,

1 Peter 3:17 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-17.htm
For it is an advantage to you that
when you are doing good works,
you suffer evil,
if it is thus the will of God,
but not while you are doing evil.

Hosea 6:6 (Pecrapta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/HOS/hos6.htm
For I desired mercy
and not sacrifice;
and the knowledge of God
more than burnt offerings.

1 Timothy 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_timothy/2.htm
1 Therefore, I beg of you that before all things,
you will offer supplications to God,
prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving,
for the sake of all people,
2 For the sake of Kings and Rulers,
that we may lead a quiet and tranquil way of life
in complete reverence to God and purity.
3 For this is pleasing and acceptable before *God Our Lifegiver,*
4 *He who wills that all people shall have Life,*
*and shall be converted to the knowledge of the truth.*
5 For God is One,
and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One:
The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah,
6 Who gave himself a ransom in the place of every person,
a testimony that has come in its time,
7 That of which I am appointed a Preacher and an Apostle of the truth.
I say and I do not lie, that
I am the Teacher of the Gentiles in the belief of the truth.
8 I desire, therefore, that men would pray in every place,
lifting their hands in purity without rage and without scheming;

2 Peter 3:9 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/3.htm
THE LORD JEHOVAH does not delay his promises as people consider delay,
but he is patient for your sakes,
and because he is not willing that any person would perish,
but that every person would come to conversion.

Eph 1:11 is ambiguous:  should it be
"we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us and willed to do,
all according to the counsel of his will," or
"we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us
and willed to do all according to the counsel of his will"?

Ephesians 1 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/ephesians/1.htm
3 Blessed is The God and The Father of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah,
he who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings in Heaven in The Messiah.
4 Just as he chose us beforehand in him from before the foundation of the universe,
that we shall be holy and without spot before him,
and he ordained us beforehand in love for himself.
5 And *he has constituted us as children by Yeshua The Messiah,*
*as that is pleasing to his will,*
6 That the glory of his grace may be praised,
that which overflows upon us by his Beloved One.
7 For *in him we have redemption,*
*and the forgiveness of sins by his blood,*
according to the riches of his grace,
8 That which has superabounded in us in all wisdom and in all intelligence.
9 And *he has taught us the mystery of his will,*
*that which he had before ordained to perform in himself,*
10 *For the administration of the end of time,*
*that all things which are in Heaven and in Earth would be made new again by The Messiah.*
11 And *we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us and willed to do all according to the counsel of his will,*
12 *That we would be those who first hoped in The Messiah,*
to the honor of his glory.
13 For you also heard by him the word of truth,
which is The Good News of your salvation,
and you believed in him,
and you were sealed in The Spirit of Holiness who was promised,
14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance for the redemption of those who are living and for the glory of his honor.

[DavidFord]

"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. If you want to pretend he was not serious, good luck just don't take other souls with you"
Would making this case to people constitute 'taking souls to hell'?:
'According to certain Christians and Muslims, the vast majority of people will be tortured for an infinite length of time in hell.  Their God supposedly is loving and merciful and all-powerful, but according to those misinformed people, their God is actually more cruel than the most evil human torturer that ever lived.  Human torturers tortured for a finite length of time, but those Muslims' and Christians' God tortures people for an infinite length of time.  Is that a God worthy of:  serving?  worshipping?  Is that a God of love and mercy?  Is that a God we should love?  No, no, no, and no.  I'm an atheist re: that God-- that God doesn't exist.'

[rosered]

"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. If you want to pretend he was not serious, good luck just don't take other souls with you"
Would making this case to people constitute 'taking souls to hell'?:
'According to certain Christians and Muslims, the vast majority of people will be tortured for an infinite length of time in hell.  Their God supposedly is loving and merciful and all-powerful, but according to those misinformed people, their God is actually more cruel than the most evil human torturer that ever lived.  Human torturers tortured for a finite length of time, but those Muslims' and Christians' God tortures people for an infinite length of time.  Is that a God worthy of:  serving?  worshipping?  Is that a God of love and mercy?  Is that a God we should love?  No, no, no, and no.  I'm an atheist re: that God-- that God doesn't exist.'

  I can sure see that IMAGE OF GOD   as the one whom the beast /carnal mind has erected  in their hearts  by the mixing of Babylons confusion   
  the mixing of good and evil and the mixing of hate and love and the mixing of  light and darkness and the mixing of death and life    creating a chaos    of scattering to be done  when the   ROCK   not made of human effort   strikes this   image

it will cause a great  earthquake   and shaking of the heavens and earth when that man of sin is revealed  and humbled  and made low by the breath of the Lords coming  to him 

GOD is no mocked and even  when it is done in ignorance   , GODS MERCY   WILL triumph  over judgement /correction   .

   Gods wrath is for a moment but His mercy endures  forever   Psalms 30 ;5

Young's Literal Translation
For -- a moment is in His anger, Life is in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.

[marie glen]

"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. If you want to pretend he was not serious, good luck just don't take other souls with you"
Would making this case to people constitute 'taking souls to hell'?:
'According to certain Christians and Muslims, the vast majority of people will be tortured for an infinite length of time in hell.  Their God supposedly is loving and merciful and all-powerful, but according to those misinformed people, their God is actually more cruel than the most evil human torturer that ever lived.  Human torturers tortured for a finite length of time, but those Muslims' and Christians' God tortures people for an infinite length of time.  Is that a God worthy of:  serving?  worshipping?  Is that a God of love and mercy?  Is that a God we should love?  No, no, no, and no.  I'm an atheist re: that God-- that God doesn't exist.'

  I can sure see that IMAGE OF GOD   as the one whom the beast /carnal mind has erected  in their hearts  by the mixing of Babylons confusion   
  the mixing of good and evil and the mixing of hate and love and the mixing of  light and darkness and the mixing of death and life    creating a chaos    of scattering to be done  when the   ROCK   not made of human effort   strikes this   image

it will cause a great  earthquake   and shaking of the heavens and earth when that man of sin is revealed  and humbled  and made low by the breath of the Lords coming  to him 

GOD is no mocked and even  when it is done in ignorance   , GODS MERCY   WILL triumph  over judgement /correction   .

   Gods wrath is for a moment but His mercy endures  forever   Psalms 30 ;5

Young's Literal Translation
For -- a moment is in His anger, Life is in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.

Packed posts! I truly think the biggest, or one of the biggest reasons a-theism has flourished these last decades - for a while now.. And is growing, is because of that highly insulting fairy tale about hell. A pagan fairy tale which even crept into Israel ..some things in the Talmud, I've heard, for example. And their becoming attached to some words..

If you've ever read or joined in on atheist vs God of the Bible debates, it seems that soon enough we find that is the biggest thing mentioned - hell, and the so-called cruelty of God.. How could He punish and take out of His garden the poor misunderstood folks who only burned and buried live children and babies to their gods.. banging drums (tophets) to drown out the screams.

When how incredibly merciful it is to remove those weeds/tares from the garden of the future.. And then resurrect them along with the rest of humanity, rather than let them perish - "that none should perish but ALL be saved" .."the soul that sinneth shall die" - instead God has put Himself through all this - being life itself and every where present, He lives through all of this. He witnesses all.

And Christ opened the pit, the grave and has brought everyone forth, death (and its place) the final thing done away with in that lake of fire.. to be attested to at the fullness of time.

But what a contrast! The perfect love of God, as contrasted to ET's presentation, implication, accusation? of Him. The myth, to me, is blasphemous in a very high degree. Though He loves and has mercy and pity upon His children who actually believe it of course.

But why would someone believe in such a 'God'?! I have to think an atheist will find additional mercy (if that's possible :laughing7: ). Just today I read the account how Jesus, when asked by John "who is it" who would betray Him, He said the one I sop this bite of bread and give it to.. and He gave it to Judas and Judas went out immediately.. and to the leaders to betray Him.

It's SO important the bread we eat.. chew on and digest. He is the unleavened bread of life - "Thy word is Truth" Jesus said (Jn.17:17). That's why false prophets/teachers will receive a greater damnation (greek, judgment, and it does not say 'forever'). As of course atheism is actually taught to children and young adults. :Chinscratch: So as atheists being likely taught theirselves.. and likely included in their psyche the hell myth.. maybe greater damnation won't apply.. as opposed to one who purposely misleads for gain or power (seats).

I can't imagine a purgatory either.. How coincidental that some who used inquisition, believed God would do likewise! "Let's torture this guy, or gal, for a while, until they submit" :faint: (oh brother!)

How infinitely wiser to let one experience and actually live through the results of their own doings, both individually and also collectively (imo). When the word says "destroyed" well, a rich person trusting is his/her wealth loses all, they are said to be ruined. If we will read His Word(s) and keep reading it, and digging as for pearls concerning it/truth, all these things become understood by ALL. A couple verses a day, then on youtube searching for truth :laughing7: just won't get it.. But hey.. they believe (subconsciously) that He's a monster.. so! Not surprising is it!? Their "IMAGE OF GOD" is one to run away from! Not run to, as His true image inspires..

But what joy to see the contrast. Now if about 3/4's of the people who have ever lived - of all sort of beliefs and cultures, etc. and histories.. rise in the "resurrection of the judgment" (discernment? "decision") it seems to me, sure, much will need to be worked out, but not via torture! Except torturous inner conflict or remorse.. the baptism of fire? The wrath of God, the purifying, consuming fire which cannot be quenched? Because it is the very life force itself? It ever burns, and forever burns bright! :dsunny: ...especially after all dross and chaff has been burned/consumed/purified away..

"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven" - actually He spoke of Gehenna alias Tophet/Hinnom/Jezreel/Jehoshaphat/Armageddon.. -

"I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. I will enter into judgment against them there concerning my people Israel who are my inheritance, whom they scattered among the nations” Joel 3:2 .."valley of decision" Joel 3:14 "I will make Israel (Jerusalem?) a stone of offense to all nations.."

"They have built places here for worship of the god Baal so that they could sacrifice their children as burnt offerings to him in the fire. Such sacrifices are something I never commanded them to make! They are something I never told them to do! Indeed, such a thing never entered my mind! So I, the LORD, say: ‘The time will soon come that people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Hinnom Valley. But they will call this valley the Valley of Slaughter!’” Jer.9:5-6

harsh? "..but joy cometh in the morning.. "at morn, singing.."

PREVIOUSLY.. aNd future! (the metaphor/simile)
"The LORD your God is bringing you to a good land, a land of brooks, springs, and fountains flowing forth in valleys and hills.” Deut.7:8

:Peace2: :dsunny:

[rosered]

  Amen Marie in the sense that all   will come  to HIM  !!!

Luke 8    the whole chapter shows us   his healing  touch ...

[marie glen]

Amen! ..."do not be afraid, only believe"!  :girlheart:

[rosered]

Amen! ..."do not be afraid, only believe"!  :girlheart:

AMEN SISTA MARIE  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:   :girlheart:

[DavidFord]

"eternal death involves never to exist ever again in God's presence" 
God is omnipresent.  Is it possible to escape being in God's presence? 
Psalm 139:8 (YLT) If I ascend the heavens -- there Thou [art],
And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!

Do you think that from God and through God and for God are all things?
Romans 11 (NIV)
https://www.biblehub.com/niv/romans/11.htm
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 *"Who has ever given to God,*
*that God should repay them?"*
36 *For from him and through him and for him are all things.*
To him be the glory forever!  Amen.

Do you think that all created things belong to the Creator?
Romans 11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/11.htm
33 Oh, the depth of the wealth, the wisdom and the knowledge of God,
for man has not searched his judgment
and his ways are not traced!
34 For who has known the mind of THE LORD JEHOVAH,
or who has been a counselor to him?
35 And who has first given to him
and then has received from him?
36 *Because all is from him, and all is by him, and all is in his hand,*
that to him would be praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities.  Amen.

[DavidFord]

"1) Why did GOD create us ??"  I dunno.  God is creative, and creators create.  In the case of God, God created something as marvelous as humans.  God is loving and forgiving, and creating fallible humans allowed God to express great love toward us, and allowed God to forgive us, and thereby demonstrate his attributes of being loving and merciful.

"2) Why did he give us a higher position than Angels"  I dunno.  Adam sinned, so humans' higher position over angels was short-lived.  Because Jesus died and rose again, he undid what Adam did, and humans are once again in a higher position than angels.
"is it not unfair with Angels and Satan who rebelled against God cuz of this ??"  The devil and his minions rebelled against God before Adam rebelled against God.

"3) Why he chose Jesus...Why Jesus was given all Help and Guiding from the God..why he was created to be special and To be called Son of God, Why was he Made to Rule us"
Jesus is God, and our Creator-- God-- gets to rule us his creation.  Jesus is God in an earth-suit.  Jesus came to show us what God is like.  Every human is special in God's view, every human is a son or daughter of God.  Every human gets help and guidance from God, including a personal assistant angel.  God's guidance is often subtle-- God's suggestions to us usually aren't overpowering, so we can easily reject his suggestions if we so choose.

"....is it not unfair to us..are we  nothing for GOD...?? Why he made 1 man to rule us all ?? Why he gave guidance and special attention to him Even tho he was just a Normal man.."
The prophet Jesus is God, and is far from normal.  Even the Quran recognizes this:  Quran ~3:30-3:50, ~19:18-19:35

"4) Why Romans killed Jesus easily and why their empire flourished after that ???"
God allowed the devil's desire to murder Jesus to be fullfilled, because God knew that God would get much good for all humans out of that terrible, evil event.
The Roman empire eventually ended.  Jesus' kingdom is still around, is growing, and is unstoppable.

"5) Why does GOD not help those who do not pray or beg to him..isn't GOD behaving like a Dictator..."
God is helping *everybody* all the time.  We'd all cease to exist if God stopped for a moment keeping us in existence.

"6) Why are we treated like insects and Nothing in the End time...why God let all this happen to us and why He want to test us...He could have just made us perfect...Does he want entertainment by Seeing us suffer for heaven...??"
If we were perfect, we wouldn't sin, and God couldn't demonstrate his great mercy and love and forgiveness.
Before all is said and done, *all* humans will be restored to having a good relationship with our very loving God.  Even Sodom will be restored-- see Ezekiel 16.

[DavidFord]

_The Message of Sadhu Sundar Singh:  A Study in Mysticism on Practical Religion_ by B.H. Streeter and A.J. Appasamy (1922), 209pp., 95-96, 99-102 https://archive.org/stream/themessageofsadh00streuoft/themessageofsadh00streuoft_djvu.txt
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1293189901/
https://www.amazon.com/Message-Sadhu-Sundar-Singh-Mysticism-ebook/dp/B013RN32LU/
"There [in heaven] we realize not only the desires we have known in this life, but desires, which we did not even know that we had, are opened up and realized, because there is everything to satisfy them.  There I am satisfied, there there is nothing more to ask.  It is wonderful!  That is our home. 

"I asked one of the Spirits the meaning of the passage in St. John:  'I said, Ye are gods.'  I was told that man has innumerable desires, and that these show that he is going to make infinite progress when in Heaven.  There we have more capacities than we have hairs of our head here. 

"Another time I asked what Christ meant by saying, 'Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.'  He did not say 'Be perfect as the angels or the prophets.'  I had been puzzled by this.  Does it mean that we shall become God; and, if so, shall we rebel against Him?  They told me there that God wants us to be equal to Him, because Love always wants an object for affection equal to itself.  Just as men are not satisfied with loving animals merely, so God wants us to be equal to Him.  But if we became so, we could not rebel:  for we should then have an infinite knowledge of the Love of God, and that would bring with it infinite thankfulness.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  Our Heavenly Father wants us to be made equal to Him.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  There are differences of degree, but there are no disagreements.  Everyone is always on everyone else's side, and those who are low down in the scale feel so proud that their elder brothers are so big. 
.... 
THE LAST JUDGMENT
"I inquired once, 'Will the dead stand in a line all together and be judged?'  I was told, No; after leaving the body the soul knows everything that has happened to it.  The memory of it all is clear and fresh, and thereby they are judged.  The heavenly light shows the wicked to themselves; they see at once that they cannot live in that fellowship of saints and angels.  They feel so out of place there, they find everything so uncongenial that they ask to be allowed to go away from Heaven.  Men are not turned out of Heaven by God.  Heaven is not a place with walls and gates where you have to ask for a ticket of admission.  The ticket of admission is the life a man has led.

"Those who are born again can see the Kingdom of Heaven and feel at home there, those who are not cannot do so.  This is the real judgment, and it is a judgment that is going on every day.  It is not effected by an act of God interposing between ourselves and Him, it is internal.  The Last Judgment will be a proclamation of the final result, when every true servant of God will be exalted before the whole creation.

"I was also told that in this world our spiritual bodies are inside our material bodies, and that when we sin it is like when we press with a point on paper behind which is a sheet of carbon; on the outside of the paper there is a very slight mark, but inside there is a clear black mark.  Thus our sins mark and scar our spiritual bodies, and the result of this will be seen when, after death, the spiritual body escapes from the material; and the revelation of the injury it has sustained will in itself be a large part of the judgment. 

HELL
"I was also told that the love of God operates even in Hell.  God does not shine in His full light, because those there could not bear it, but He gradually shows them more and more light, and by and by brings them on and moves their conscience towards something better, although they think that the desire is entirely their own. 

Thus God works on their minds from within, something in the same way, though in the opposite direction, as that in which Satan suggests temptation to us here.  Thus, what with God's work within and the Light without, almost all those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Christ's feet.  It will perhaps take millions of ages, but when it is attained they will be full of joy and thankfulness towards God; though they will still be less happy than those who have accepted Christ on earth.  Thus Hell also is a training school, a place of preparation for Home.  Those in Hell know that it is not their home because they suffer there.  Men were not created for Hell and therefore do not enjoy it, and, when there, desire to escape to Heaven.  They do so, but they find Heaven even more uncongenial than Hell, so they return.  But this convinces them that there is something wrong in their lives, and thus they are gradually led to repentance.  At least, that is the case with the majority, but there are some few personalities, Satan for instance, in regard to whom I was told, 'Don't ask about them.'  And so I didn't like to ask, but I hoped that for them also there was some hope. 

"They also told me that the Saints help in the work of saving souls in Hell, because there can be no idleness in Heaven.  Those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Heaven like the prodigal son, but with regard to the ultimate fate of a certain number you must not ask."  The Sadhu is inclined to think that perhaps these few will be annihilated. 

"Once I said, 'So many people will be lost because they have not heard of Christ.'  They said, 'The contrary will be the case; very few will be lost.'  There is a kind of heavenly joke, no, joke is not a good word for it.  'Very few will be lost but many will be saved.  It is so, but don't tell,' they said, as it were, in jest, 'because it will make men careless, and we want them to enjoy the First Heaven-- that is the Heaven on earth-- as well.' " 

"If there were no hope for all the non-Christians in the world and all the Christians who die in sin, God would stop creating men.  We must do our part here on earth to save sinners, but if they refuse we need not be without hope for them. 

The Sadhu's "universalism" recalls the famous "Shewing" to Mother Juliana of Norwich, "All manner of things shall be well," and her comments thereon except that her respect for the authority of the Church precludes her making any suggestion _how_ this may be possible.  The Sadhu faithfully obeys the injunction, "Don't tell." In his popular teachings, as we shall see in the next chapter, he stresses the need of repentance, and the certainty of immediate judgment in the next life, but he never speaks of his hope of _ultimate_ salvation even for the unrepentant.

[DavidFord]

Will Jesus-- God in the flesh-- succeed, or fail, in his goal of entering every human heart?

Frank C. Laubach, _Christ Liveth in Me and Game with Minutes_ (1961), 64pp., 27, 41
When Jesus of Nazareth began to make the world over into the Kingdom of God, He started something so vast that the one human body of Jesus was not enough.  His one body could walk only in Palestine. At Pentecost the Spirit of Christ entered 120 persons, and then Christ had 120 bodies.  But 120 were not enough.  Outside Damascus, Christ entered Saul of Tarsus.  Then He entered hundreds, then thousands.  Even that many were not enough for the vast world task before Him.  Christ has been reincarnated in a billion bodies.  But that was not enough!  He is _not_ finished until His love captures _every_ heart and fills _every_ body.  The whole human race must become His body, and the sons of man together become the dwelling place of the Son of man.  This is what Paul saw when he told the Church in Ephesus:  "The _church_ is Christ's body and we its members are parts of the whole body of Christ."

Since there are millions born every day, His task will go on and on and on as long as women give birth.  He must save the world all over again, each generation.  He must stand and knock at the door of every person in the human race and wait for His chance to enter and beget a new son of God.  If this makes you literally dizzy, it does me too.  For it is _we_ who stand at the door of other hearts and knock with Him.  _Every_ soul seeking to win another to Christ is really Christ Himself reaching out from within one body and pleading to enter another.  His method of saving the world is "Each One Teach One and Reach One for Jesus."
....
Dear friends who understand what I mean, we must have endless patience with those who cannot see this.  We must wait in patience.  The direction in which they go may end in some shipwreck-- they then will reach for a hand to rescue them, and He will be there waiting.  Every disaster can be God's doorway to heaven.

[DavidFord]

Matthew Bryan, _Forgotten Gospel: The Original Message of a Conquering King_ (2014), 138pp., 126-7
https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Gospel-Original-Message-Conquering/dp/0996055932/
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then scripture fails to record a single example of a gospel sermon to non-believers.
If the gospel is "Jesus is the _Christos_ [Meshikha/ Anointed One/ Anointed Priest-Prophet-King]," then the book of Acts records many examples of gospel sermons.
....
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then salvation is the avoidance of God's wrath.
If the gospel is "Jesus is King," then salvation is _liberation_ from the kingdom of darkness.
....
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then meditating on the gospel as a believer encourages me to consider myself a sinner.
If the gospel is "Jesus is King," then meditating on the gospel as a believer encourages me to consider myself a citizen of [the kingdom of] King Jesus.
....
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then the book of Revelation primarily reflects the final judgment of sin.
If the gospel is "Jesus is King," then the book of Revelation primarily reflects His final reclamation of the kingdom of the world from the authority of darkness.

[jabcat]

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures . . . 1 Corinthians 15:3-4

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit . . . 1 Peter 3:18

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners . . . Romans 5:19 (NASB)
. . . so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28

[DavidFord]

Maybe this dream is based on somebody's actual dream, and maybe not.  Either way, it's intriguing.

Michael Wood, _The Jerome Conspiracy_ (2010), 191pp., 153-4
https://www.amazon.com/Jerome-Conspiracy-Michael-Wood/dp/193656503X/
Samantha joined Jonathon in bed to read the book of Colossians, a book of the Bible written by Paul.  She particularly enjoyed the passage in chapter one, where Paul prophesied that everyone God created will be reconciled back to him.  After finishing the book, she reached over and turned out the light.
Samantha fell asleep with Paul's promise of universal reconciliation on her mind.  And it wasn't long before she started dreaming.  While her dreams typically faded in and out, this night she had an unusually lucid dream.  It felt so real.

Samantha dreamed that she and Jonathon were enjoying life in paradise, in the Kingdom of God. And every evening, there was an incredible banquet, with Jesus sitting at the head of an immense table.  The table stretches for miles, allowing it to accommodate every inhabitant of the Kingdom.
Samantha noticed that every evening the guests were assigned one seat closer to the head of the table, so that everyone eventually got to sit next to Jesus.  The guests' names were engraved on golden placards placed around the table, indicating who sat where.

One evening, however, when she and Jonathon entered the banquet hall, the angels took them to seats much farther away from the head of the table than they had been the night before.
After taking her seat, Samantha turned to one of the angels and asked, "Why have we been moved so far down the table?  Have we done something wrong?"
The angel laughed and cheerfully replied, "We just thought you might want to sit here at this part of the table tonight."

Just then, the nightly announcement resounded throughout the banquet hall:  "New arrivals!"  All the inhabitants cheered every night when that announcement was made.
Samantha turned to her right and noticed the empty chair next to her.  Curious, she reached for the golden placard to see the name of the person who was going to sit beside her.  As she gazed at the name, her hands started trembling, and tears of joy danced on her face.
"Jonathon!  Jonathon!" she shouted, showing him the placard.  "Look!"
Jonathon laughed and hugged her.  Tears flowed from his eyes as he continued to stare at the name engraved on the golden placard-- for the name on the placard was the name of his son ... Jamie Webber.

The emotional impact of the dream woke Samantha up.  She was sobbing tears of joy as the weight of Jamie's death lifted from her shoulders.  She gazed upward, wiped the tears from her eyes, and then whispered warmly into the night, "I'll see you in heaven, my love."