Tentmaker Forum

_Immortality: The Drew Lecture: Delivered October 11, 1912_ by Robert Henry Charles (Oxford:  Clarendon Press), 38pp.
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
Moreover, throughout the first century B.C., it is all but universally taught that only the righteous should have part in the resurrection.

As regards Sheol, a whole history is wrapped up in the uses of this term. Amid the various divergent conceptions of it in the Old Testament two features always persist. First, it is a place where social and not moral distinctions prevail ; and secondly, though an abode of misery and wretchedness, it is not like Gehenna-- a place of torment by fire. Now in the course of Apocalyptic literature these views are abandoned. From 160 B.C. onward Sheol is always conceived as a place of moral distinctions, and shortly after 100 B.C. Sheol is described for the first time as an abode of fire, as in the New Testament.

What happens in the case of these two conceptions happens in the case of all technical eschatological terms.  There is constant movement, constant development; and the movement is, on the whole, towards a more spiritual conception of the future, in the course of which the lower survivals of the past are steadily dropped and higher conceptions set in their place. But, as is natural, throughout the entire development eschatological thought always stands on a lower spiritual plane than the theological conception of God.
....
We have referred above to the incorporation of a large body of Jewish ideas into the system of Christian thought and their subsequent transformation in the process.  But all such ideas did not undergo complete or even partial transformation, and we have to recognize the presence of Judaistic elements in the New Testament, in the Gospels, the Pauline Epistles, particularly the earlier, and the Apocalypse.

We have already seen that at all periods in the history of Israel there existed side by side in its religion incongruous and inconsistent elements. On the one side there was the doctrine of God ever advancing in depth and fullness ; on the other, eschatological and other survivals, which, however justifiable in other stages, were in unmistakable antagonism with the theistic beliefs of the time.  The eschatology of the nation is always the last part of its religion to experience the transforming power of new ideas and new facts. The eschatology of Israel was at times six hundred years behind its theology.

The recognition of these facts is of transcendent importance when we deal with New Testament eschatology. It prepares us for the occurrence to some extent of similar phenomena in the New Testament, and makes us ready to acknowledge their existence and give them their full historical value. The mere presence of such incongruities within the New Testament gives them no claim on the acceptance of the Church. Standing at variance as they do with the Christian fundamental doctrines of God and Christ, they must be condemned as survivals of an earlier and lower stage of religious belief.  In Christianity there is a survival of alien Judaistic elements, just as in the Hebrew religion there were for centuries survivals of Semitic heathenism.

Let me take two concrete instances. In the Hebrew religion Sheol, as a place of social and national distinctions, was a purely heathen conception. The first decisive stage in its moralization took place early in the second century B.C., when it was transformed into a place of moral distinctions. But this moralization was very inadequately carried out. According to the Judaistic conceptions, souls in Sheol were conceived as insusceptible of ethical progress. What they were on entering Sheol, that they continued to be till the final judgement. This conception is mechanical and unethical, if judged in the light of Christian theism. It precludes moral change in moral agents who are under the rule of a Being of perfect love and righteousness. The doctrine of eternal damnation, also, is a Judaistic survival of a still more grossly immoral character. This doctrine gained acceptance in Judaism when Monotheism had become to a great extent a lifeless dogma and Jewish particularism reigned supreme, and when a handful of Jews could not only comfortably believe that God was the God of the Jews only, and that of a very few, but also could imagine that part of their highest bliss in the next world would consist in witnessing the torments of their apostate brethren in Gehenna. Such a doctrine is antagonistic in the highest degree to the Sermon on the Mount, where a man is taught to love his enemies even as God does, and to labour unceasingly on their behalf, and to the Johannine teaching which finds its highest expression in the divinest utterance in all literature-- 'God is love.'

In connexion with this, the highest conception of God possible, the conception of Hades must make its final ethical advance and become a place where moral growth and moral declension are alike possible. This advance is really implied in 1 Peter iv.  Furthermore, the old Judaistic conception of Hell as a place of eternal damnation must be abandoned. Sin, according to the Johannine view, is the destroyer of life-- physical, spiritual, and ontological. Now to check the ultimate effects of this process of destruction and preserve the sinner in a state of ever-growing, ever-deepening, and yet ever-inevitable sin could in no sense be the work of the God so conceived.

The theology of the New Testament with its doctrine of the Fatherhood of God demands a transformation of this Jewish doctrine, and postulates our acceptance either of Conditional Immortality, or, as Origen of old taught, of Universalism. So far as the Christian Churches hold fast to the doctrine taken over from Judaism at the Christian era, their eschatology is nearly two thousand years behind their doctrine of God and Christ. We are all ready, I hope, in some fashion to recognize the possibility of a further probation. Some of us may only go so far as to hold probation as a purely speculative question and a matter of grace on the part of God.

But there are others amongst us who regard it in quite a different light, and who cannot simply relegate it to the region of God's uncovenanted mercies, seeing that it affects so deeply the character of God Himself. Nay, they would hold it a dishonour to the God they revere and serve even to admit the possibility that He should visit with a never-ending punishment the errors and shortcomings, nay more, the wilful sins of a few dim and mistaken years of earth, and limit to a handbreadth of time the opportunities and irremediable issues of a never-ending eternity. If this were so, the present world, with all its abuses and wrongfulness and injustice, would be infinitely more equitable than the world to come. Such then appears to be the conclusion that should be drawn from the Christian doctrine of the Fatherhood of God. By adopting this conclusion we bring once more eschatology into harmony with Christian theology.

from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqqVwzMkiPc&lc=z22hcltr4qjvwdyy404t1aokgpuda1cj4gko1iw5ufbybk0h00410.1545692938155601
Lex Treme 1 year ago
Correct Donna and you make a very good point that many don't consider. Why was Adam not warned about an eternal hellfire, or Abraham, Moses, even the Apostle Paul ,who was appointed to the nations by the risen glorified Christ doesn't mention it once! People don't look at scripture in context.

This is a long comment but I hope it may be helpful. The original Hebrew/Greek words that were used all had specific meanings, however over time the original meanings strayed, mainly through traditions so now have taken on different meanings. Hell for example is not a Greek word, (hence can't even be found in many bible translations) it's actually used in the word HEL-MET which is a head COVERING, not a place of eternal torment. The four words often lumped together are, Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) grave/pit/unseen, then Tartarus (Greek) used for sinning angels, finally Gehenna (Greek) had the strongest link to fire because it was a literal place located just outside the walls of Jerusalem, in the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehhinnom), it was a rubbish dump, you can visit the area today, although obviously it looks very different now.

Matthew 25:31-46 is the passage many turn to for the doctrine of 'hell' or 'eternal torment', but sadly people rarely read the specific context of what is going on in Matthew 25:31-46? We find the use of the words follow a specific judgement, at a specific future time, involving a specific group.

I won't post all the verses here but below is a summary of Matthew 25:31-46, highlighting some key points that are often overlooked.

(1)The target audience is NATIONS
(2)They are GATHERED (not resurrected from the dead as in Revelation 20:12) so are living at the time.
(3)TWO 'GROUPS' are formed in the judgement - Sheep (Right hand) / Goats (Left hand).
(4)REASON For Judgement – The King's brethren Hungered, was Thirsty, a Stranger, Naked, Infirm or in Jail. Which of the nations responded to these circumstances? (So it's a humanitarian judgement)
(5)RESULT of the Judgement - The Sheep (nations) responded to the above circumstances, so WILL ENJOY AGE-ABIDING/DURING LIFE in the allotment of the kingdom (notice NOT rule and reign in it), but the Goat (nations) did not respond to the above circumstances, so will go away to AGE-ABIDING/DURING CORRECTION/PUNISHMENT/CHASTENING.
(BOTH the Sheep and the Goat nations actually acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the judgement).

Verse 46 reveals (addressing the goat nations below)
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (KJV)
"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life." (REB)
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (YLT)
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)

We find the judgement is based on who helped the King's brethren (Israel) I believe during the difficult tribulation period to come. Verse 46 reveals 'the goat nations' who don't help won't get entrance into the Kingdom, but will rather miss out. Rotherham emphasized bible is probably the clearest in it's choice of words, revealing no one goes away to eternal torment, but much rather to a specific time of age-abiding/during correction, to basically be set right.

The Book of Revelation does reveal that at a future time some will enter "the second death" Rev 2:11 , 20:6, 20:14, 21:8, but this is dealing with the Great White Throne Judgement, which is a different judgement to the one in Matthew 25, however 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us to a time beyond the Great White Throne Judgement, therefore we read that ultimately death will be abolished, i.e. hold no one, 1 Cor 15:26 and we find God's ultimate purpose is to be "ALL in all" 1 Cor 15:28! People think if God is going to save all, that means He does away with His Judgement's, but far from it, God is wise, His Judgement's do not work against His purpose, but much rather they are used as a MEANS for Him to accomplish a glorious end, i.e. to ultimately be "All in all" 1 Cor 15:28.

The doctrine of eternal torment takes sin THE LEAST seriously, as this doctrine demotes God to a little g "god" who can't ever resolve the problem and so has to dump it somewhere for all eternity. To sin means to miss/fall short of the mark, therefore if God intended to save all, which even most eternal torment believers will agree He did, but is now unable to, they are saying God is missing/falling short of His mark and therefore sinning! This is a far more serious attack on God's character than many realize.

The doctrine of Annihilation is somewhat more humane, BUT it sadly denies both God and His Christ the glory, something many have sadly lost sight of.

I look forward with great expectation to a future time when all will not only come into a realization of the truth, but for when "in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing ... and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father." Phil 2:10-11 (CLV), because we are told this will be FOR THE GLORY OF God!  All believers should truly long for this, otherwise they should be the most miserable of believers, in holding to a doctrine where the God they worship won't ultimately get His rightful glory.

Thankfully all will come to realize the following truths because God is indeed ALMIGHTY and will accomplish:
Reconciliation of all (Col. 1:20)
Justification of all (Rom. 5:18)
Vivification of all (1 Cor. 15:22-24)
Subjection of all (1 Cor. 15:28)
Salvation of all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
Merciful To All  (Rom. 11:32)
God All in all (1 Cor. 15:28)

In His grace.

So you're finally being brainwashed convinced of UR? Yipee! :myahoo:

Time for a celebration!  :banana:

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
_Immortality: The Drew Lecture: Delivered October 11, 1912_ by Robert Henry Charles (Oxford:  Clarendon Press), 38pp.
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
Moreover, throughout the first century B.C., it is all but universally taught that only the righteous should have part in the resurrection.

  :faint: I believe this to be a  totally false statement! 

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
As regards Sheol, a whole history is wrapped up in the uses of this term. Amid the various divergent conceptions of it in the Old Testament two features always persist.

Maybe in the Talmud, but not the Old Testament..

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
First, it is a place where social and not moral distinctions prevail ; and secondly, though an abode of misery and wretchedness, it is not like Gehenna-- a place of torment by fire. Now in the course of Apocalyptic literature these views are abandoned. From 160 B.C. onward Sheol is always conceived as a place of moral distinctions, and shortly after 100 B.C. Sheol is described for the first time as an abode of fire, as in the New Testament.

Do they include any sources? To support..

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
What happens in the case of these two conceptions happens in the case of all technical eschatological terms.  There is constant movement, constant development; and the movement is, on the whole, towards a more spiritual conception of the future, in the course of which the lower survivals of the past are steadily dropped and higher conceptions set in their place. But, as is natural, throughout the entire development eschatological thought always stands on a lower spiritual plane than the theological conception of God.

I'm afraid I don't even understand this.. are they saying man's thoughts (evolving thoughts) about God's Word are superior to God's Word? Really? Ug.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
We have referred above to the incorporation of a large body of Jewish ideas into the system of Christian thought and their subsequent transformation in the process.

Amen! Which in turn came from Pagan, non-biblical world wide ideas of man.. "nothing new under the sun"! :gsmile:

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
  But all such ideas did not undergo complete or even partial transformation, and we have to recognize the presence of Judaistic elements in the New Testament, in the Gospels, the Pauline Epistles, particularly the earlier, and the Apocalypse.

We have already seen that at all periods in the history of Israel there existed side by side in its religion incongruous and inconsistent elements. On the one side there was the doctrine of God ever advancing in depth and fullness ; on the other, eschatological and other survivals, which, however justifiable in other stages, were in unmistakable antagonism with the theistic beliefs of the time.  The eschatology of the nation is always the last part of its religion to experience the transforming power of new ideas and new facts. The eschatology of Israel was at times six hundred years behind its theology.

People corrupt everything.. When YHWH told Jacob to build an altar by stacking stones "untouched by man's tools, for that would corrupt the stones" - I think that is a perfect example of God's Word.. as delivered.. free of man's tools/working upon it.. :gsmile:

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
The recognition of these facts is of transcendent importance when we deal with New Testament eschatology. It prepares us for the occurrence to some extent of similar phenomena in the New Testament, and makes us ready to acknowledge their existence and give them their full historical value. The mere presence of such incongruities within the New Testament gives them no claim on the acceptance of the Church. Standing at variance as they do with the Christian fundamental doctrines of God and Christ, they must be condemned as survivals of an earlier and lower stage of religious belief.  In Christianity there is a survival of alien Judaistic elements, just as in the Hebrew religion there were for centuries survivals of Semitic heathenism.

Again, man's improvement upon God's Word.. :eek: Obviously they do not believe God's Words are His! And they are "contradicting God's Word"! :mshock: :faint: ...but for the grace of God, of course there go I.. but happily not..!? :shock:

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
Let me take two concrete instances. In the Hebrew religion Sheol, as a place of social and national distinctions, was a purely heathen conception.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: a king priest collusion originally, to control the ppl..?

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
The first decisive stage in its moralization took place early in the second century B.C., when it was transformed into a place of moral distinctions. But this moralization was very inadequately carried out. According to the Judaistic conceptions, souls in Sheol were conceived as insusceptible of ethical progress. What they were on entering Sheol, that they continued to be till the final judgement. This conception is mechanical and unethical, if judged in the light of Christian theism.

Aha! Yes.. if the dead live on in death.. or that is, if the unsaved dead are alive (in another form of living?) wouldn't they not as you say, be mechanical, but still learning.. and so why would Jesus, who said He will draw ALL to Him, be drawing them? So when they rise in resurrection "after the thousand years" wouldn't they after all that time, been drawn?

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
It precludes moral change in moral agents who are under the rule of a Being of perfect love and righteousness. The doctrine of eternal damnation, also, is a Judaistic survival

..but didn't they assimilate it from that old tired source of paganism, so no more at fault than anyone else, I just want to point out.. all also in the plan of God.. that all be subjected to unbelief.. Israel served to bring forth Messiah.. the church to pass out the bread of life (the Truth, the word, the "good news")

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
of a still more grossly immoral character. This doctrine gained acceptance in Judaism when Monotheism had become to a great extent a lifeless dogma and Jewish particularism reigned supreme, and when a handful of Jews could not only comfortably believe that God was the God of the Jews only, and that of a very few, but also could imagine that part of their highest bliss in the next world would consist in witnessing the torments of their apostate brethren in Gehenna. Such a doctrine is antagonistic in the highest degree to the Sermon on the Mount, where a man is taught to love his enemies even as God does, and to labour unceasingly on their behalf, and to the Johannine teaching which finds its highest expression in the divinest utterance in all literature-- 'God is love.'

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: And is recognizing that God's Word is Truth, and man's thought about it (arrogant thought about it?) is far inferior and saves no one.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
In connexion with this, the highest conception of God possible, the conception of Hades must make its final ethical advance and become a place where moral growth and moral declension are alike possible. This advance is really implied in 1 Peter iv.  Furthermore, the old Judaistic conception of Hell as a place of eternal damnation must be abandoned. Sin, according to the Johannine view, is the destroyer of life-- physical, spiritual, and ontological. Now to check the ultimate effects of this process of destruction and preserve the sinner in a state of ever-growing, ever-deepening, and yet ever-inevitable sin could in no sense be the work of the God so conceived.

The theology of the New Testament with its doctrine of the Fatherhood of God demands a transformation of this Jewish doctrine, and postulates our acceptance either of Conditional Immortality, or, as Origen of old taught, of Universalism. So far as the Christian Churches hold fast to the doctrine taken over from Judaism at the Christian era, their eschatology is nearly two thousand years behind their doctrine of God and Christ. We are all ready, I hope, in some fashion to recognize the possibility of a further probation. Some of us may only go so far as to hold probation as a purely speculative question and a matter of grace on the part of God.

But there are others amongst us who regard it in quite a different light, and who cannot simply relegate it to the region of God's uncovenanted mercies, seeing that it affects so deeply the character of God Himself. Nay, they would hold it a dishonour to the God they revere and serve even to admit the possibility that He should visit with a never-ending punishment the errors and shortcomings, nay more, the wilful sins of a few dim and mistaken years of earth, and limit to a handbreadth of time the opportunities and irremediable issues of a never-ending eternity. If this were so, the present world, with all its abuses and wrongfulness and injustice, would be infinitely more equitable than the world to come. Such then appears to be the conclusion that should be drawn from the Christian doctrine of the Fatherhood of God. By adopting this conclusion we bring once more eschatology into harmony with Christian theology.

Untruth can only result in more untruth.. So what's being said is - If there is error in the theology there is error in the eschatological view also? The words of bible prophecy being seen through a false prism..

:Chinscratch: A new thought.. (to me) ..if UR is true, and we know it is, if the unsaved who have died are conscious, wouldn't the Spirit of Jesus be drawing them? If so, wouldn't at least some of them rise as believers, thus saved? Instead of what Jesus called "rising to judgment" as opposed to - in the same verse - rising to life? How then that there are two totally different resurrections.. initially(!) that is.. If UR is true, and we know it is, there must be a time when Jesus completes the work of "drawing all to Himself" (Jn.12:32.) So this must (imo) occur either while they are in the grave (sheol) or after.. yes? Yet Et makes it seem like they rise and are thrown away.. or actually worse than thrown away. Imagine waking up and cast to a lof..  :eek: ..when God was the one who chose who would be able to believe during this brief lifetime.. no/not logos/logic?

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqqVwzMkiPc&lc=z22hcltr4qjvwdyy404t1aokgpuda1cj4gko1iw5ufbybk0h00410.1545692938155601
Lex Treme 1 year ago
Correct Donna and you make a very good point that many don't consider. Why was Adam not warned about an eternal hellfire, or Abraham, Moses, even the Apostle Paul ,who was appointed to the nations by the risen glorified Christ doesn't mention it once! People don't look at scripture in context.

Or use logic when it comes to the logos.. root word of logic.. what irony! :laughing7:

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
This is a long comment but I hope it may be helpful. The original Hebrew/Greek words that were used all had specific meanings, however over time the original meanings strayed, mainly through traditions so now have taken on different meanings.

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
Hell for example is not a Greek word, (hence can't even be found in many bible translations) it's actually used in the word HEL-MET which is a head COVERING, not a place of eternal torment. The four words often lumped together are, Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) grave/pit/unseen, then Tartarus (Greek) used for sinning angels, finally Gehenna (Greek) had the strongest link to fire because it was a literal place located just outside the walls of Jerusalem, in the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehhinnom), it was a rubbish dump, you can visit the area today, although obviously it looks very different now.

:banana: :dsunny: :cloud9:

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
Matthew 25:31-46 is the passage many turn to for the doctrine of 'hell' or 'eternal torment', but sadly people rarely read the specific context of what is going on in Matthew 25:31-46? We find the use of the words follow a specific judgement, at a specific future time, involving a specific group.

I won't post all the verses here but below is a summary of Matthew 25:31-46, highlighting some key points that are often overlooked.

(1)The target audience is NATIONS
(2)They are GATHERED (not resurrected from the dead as in Revelation 20:12) so are living at the time.
(3)TWO 'GROUPS' are formed in the judgement - Sheep (Right hand) / Goats (Left hand).
(4)REASON For Judgement – The King's brethren Hungered, was Thirsty, a Stranger, Naked, Infirm or in Jail. Which of the nations responded to these circumstances? (So it's a humanitarian judgement)
(5)RESULT of the Judgement - The Sheep (nations) responded to the above circumstances, so WILL ENJOY AGE-ABIDING/DURING LIFE in the allotment of the kingdom (notice NOT rule and reign in it), but the Goat (nations) did not respond to the above circumstances, so will go away to AGE-ABIDING/DURING CORRECTION/PUNISHMENT/CHASTENING.

I believe Jesus says this occurs "at His return" -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand.."

This reminds me of -

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."

"The harvest" is when? 1 Corinthians 15:23 - each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming^harvest... then the end^harvest and God all in all..

Which verses absolutely remind me of "REv.16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."

Doesn't this happen at His return?

The verses Rev. 16:14-15-16 =
"14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. The two concurrent harvests of Revelation (then the narrative reviews what occurred to Babylon, the Great - previously.)

14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
(BOTH the Sheep and the Goat nations actually acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the judgement).
[/quote]
  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Which follows the return of Jesus and the resurrection of all believers "after the thousand years" - Rev.20.

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
Verse 46 reveals (addressing the goat nations below)
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (KJV)

"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life." (REB)

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (YLT)

"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)

an age of correction..(?) concurrent with those living the same age, but of life, instead of correction - they've been corrected and reconciled (before their death)

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
We find the judgement is based on who helped the King's brethren (Israel) I believe during the difficult tribulation period to come. Verse 46 reveals 'the goat nations' who don't help won't get entrance into the Kingdom, but will rather miss out. Rotherham emphasized bible is probably the clearest in it's choice of words, revealing no one goes away to eternal torment, but much rather to a specific time of age-abiding/during correction, to basically be set right.

I just think it's a characteristic trait to not be helpful, especially as the days of atheism truly progress..?

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
The Book of Revelation does reveal that at a future time some will enter "the second death" Rev 2:11 , 20:6, 20:14, 21:8, but this is dealing with the Great White Throne Judgement, which is a different judgement to the one in Matthew 25,

:thumbsup: :iagree:

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
however 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us to a time beyond the Great White Throne Judgement, therefore we read that ultimately death will be abolished, i.e. hold no one, 1 Cor 15:26 and we find God's ultimate purpose is to be "ALL in all" 1 Cor 15:28! People think if God is going to save all, that means He does away with His Judgement's, but far from it, God is wise, His Judgement's do not work against His purpose, but much rather they are used as a MEANS for Him to accomplish a glorious end, i.e. to ultimately be "All in all" 1 Cor 15:28.

Amen :cloud9:

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
The doctrine of eternal torment takes sin THE LEAST seriously, as this doctrine demotes God to a little g "god" who can't ever resolve the problem and so has to dump it somewhere for all eternity. To sin means to miss/fall short of the mark, therefore if God intended to save all, which even most eternal torment believers will agree He did, but is now unable to, they are saying God is missing/falling short of His mark and therefore sinning! This is a far more serious attack on God's character than many realize.

Amen :faint:

Quote from: DavidFord on December 25, 2018, 06:46:08 PM
The doctrine of Annihilation is somewhat more humane, BUT it sadly denies both God and His Christ the glory, something many have sadly lost sight of.

I look forward with great expectation to a future time when all will not only come into a realization of the truth, but for when "in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing ... and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father." Phil 2:10-11 (CLV), because we are told this will be FOR THE GLORY OF God!  All believers should truly long for this, otherwise they should be the most miserable of believers, in holding to a doctrine where the God they worship won't ultimately get His rightful glory.

Thankfully all will come to realize the following truths because God is indeed ALMIGHTY and will accomplish:
Reconciliation of all (Col. 1:20)
Justification of all (Rom. 5:18)
Vivification of all (1 Cor. 15:22-24)
Subjection of all (1 Cor. 15:28)
Salvation of all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
Merciful To All  (Rom. 11:32)
God All in all (1 Cor. 15:28)

In His grace.[/font][/size]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:

!! We can see these, subtle and not so subtle changes in the Judaism beliefs reflected in words.. Like Sheol.. the Bible makes plain, for mortal man, it was a state of dust and the breath returns to God who gave it. It was a place where there was no doing nor thought.. but over time, it too, absorbed the Pagan mindset and view of life, death and (the) afterlife (afterlife as naturally occurring).

THIS(?) is why we find some extensions of meaning attached to words, in lexicons and interlinear, that once were not there in the Judaic mindset, originally as God designed and separated them to that end.

For that reason!(?)

They weren't to copy the nations in their 'secret' rites and sacrifices. For obvious reasons. Yet even the horrible idea of a hell is a spin off of the mild, life after death belief.. Or that is belief in naturally occurring, inherent life after death. (Whether believers live on After death is, to me, another topic.. Jesus breathes on them and said "receive ye the Spirit.." And God's "breath" or "life energy" of course is what gives life.. That's why, even though personally, I lean toward believing the dead in Christ 'sleep' until they "hear His voice and rise".. This distinction doesn't matter much to me.

But the idea that the (as they say) unsaved soul lives on after death, i think of as a foundational untruth which has caused much trouble. (Observing the result and fruits of something helps in discernment? / our learning accurate discernment? Unlike Eve who discerned the forbidden fruit to be attractive.. and discerned the serpent's words - or other than God's words, to be superior to God's Words... And relied on her own discernment instead of God's which He had stated.. o the danger of being told what the Bible says? the many many voices telling us what the Bible says.. exposed to that before reading the slim New Testament for our self..? So ET goes on and on, no matter how nonsensical.. Even scripture quoted cannot always break the spell.. Until God breaks it. :cloud9:

Just my :2c: of course..
God bless..
great study DF..

From  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrBSMe6_E40
ni stan5 months ago (edited)
Listen up brothers and sisters, I have been a "Christian for 57 years, I believed the mainstream Christian conditional salvation message, I "worked" hard at trying to "please" God and "maintain" my salvation so that I don't "lose it", and my life still went to hell in a handbasket because I didn't understand what HE really did on the cross, and my true Identity in Christ!

Then after I committed a life altering sin, the Lord let me leave (my own choice) and live a life of hell for the past 22 years (prodigal son). The Holy Spirit Himself restored me (my mind, not my salvation, even though I believed I was eternally lost) 3 years ago in a profound way when I was about to give up on living, and HE revealed these 3 truths to me since then. #1. He never left me, #2. He never leaves ANYONE!, #3. What "God is LOVE" really means because I experienced God's unconditional love for me for the first time in my life!

Christian Universalism Originally known as Apocatastasis (google it) was, and still is the original gospel of Paul & the first church. It is still held by faithful Eastern Orthodoxy because they don't use any Catholic bible translations. Apocatastasis was abolished by the Early Catholic church and "conditional salvation" was put in its place within the text of the Catholic "Latin Vulgate" which most English translations including the KJV are influenced by today.

The original manuscripts never speak of eternal separation, eternal conscious torment, or some BBQ pit called hell that a crazy, vengeful God sends people to. That is a mixture of pagan & Catholic crap which has put over a billion Christians into mental bondage and anguish, exactly what Jesus came to free everyone from in his day (set the captives free from religious bondage).

Jesus did not come to save us from some angry God, God sent Jesus to save us from OURSELVES (sin is not the problem, the loss of our original identity in Christ is), and RESET our original identity in HIM which was lost in the garden. It's not about penal substitution (A crazy psychopathic God that needs to torture His son) and then torture US if we decide not to Love him. The Catholic Theology has created an INSANE western Christianity!

The Entire bible (use Youngs literal or any other translation that has nothing to do with the Latin Vulgate) in its ORIGINAL manuscript context and content preaches that God WILL save everyone (in this life, or in a future RESURRECTION where further correction and revelation of His LOVE occurs) and that the "cross/Jesus" WAS (not hopes to be) fully victorious!

Would the ALMIGHTY GOD let Satan have even one lost person? Really? Lets go back and read the story of the one lost sheep Jesus went to bring back, and stop having so much distorted vengeance in our hearts for others and self righteous pride thinking there is such a thing as us vs. them (non-believers). Peace

My comment on this:  I do think Adam existed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkfewt4XBio
RL Fiar    Brian, Think on this. God's mercy endures forever. It doesn't die when you do. Jesus proclaimed forgiveness in the act of being brutally and unjustly murdered.
He said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father. He doesn't say or do anything unless the Father does. He said "i and my father are one." Hebrews says He is the express image of the invisible God.
The nature of our Creator is that He takes the worst possible thing you can do to a person, let's it happen to Him, and proclaims forgiveness in the act.

As in Adam ALL DIE, so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. I don't believe in Adam. DOn't think he was real. Does that exempt me from being able to be "in Adam." How does one get "in Adam?"
We're told that there are all sorts of conditions to be "in Christ" even though by Him all things consist. All things are of God. This is in the book.
God is not God of the dead, but of the living, and Jesus came to give life and life more abundantly. He never once said , "I came to improve the quality of being dead." That' would be the opposite of, "I came to give life and life more abundantly."
It's not an offer, it's a proclamation. It's a divine decree. You don't get a choice. Your will can be as free as you think you want it to be. You can not ever outwit, outlast, out persevere, out maneuver, outlive, or otherwise foil God in His plans for you which is that you be conformed to the image of Christ.
The gate is never shut.
8 months ago

Gabriel Camarena  When you examine God's character. He is love and He will accomplish all that He wants. The ultimate conclusion is the Jesus died for all mankind and in the end every person will come to faith in Christ...if not in this life than in the next after death. All things in the universe will be reconciled.   If even one person is lost, God would not have succeeded in his rescue plan. God does not lose to sin, death, and the devil. He will be fully victorious and eventually every knee will bow to Him in worship.
4 weeks ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2T2YfFhO64
chazbo3071fun Anything less than the ultimate reconciliation and restoration of humanity would mean that Adam's disobedience had a greater impact on humanity than Christ's death on the cross. Romans 5:19 states that as men were made sinners through Adam's disobedience, men will be made righteous through Christ's obedience. We know that ALL men were made sinners as a result of Adam's sin. If only SOME are made righteous through Christ (Orthodox Christianity believes very few),  then Adam's transgression was more powerful than the redemptive work of Christ on the cross.

https://youtu.be/EWVYZqFYMjM
ni stan1 year ago (edited) Be at peace. The lake of fire is God's LOVE that will heal and purify ALL people (Daniel 7:9-10). Remember, he was the burning bush in front of Moses. It did not consume the bush, but made the ground Moses stood on HOLY! The reason the eyes of the heart are NOT enlightened is because you don't believe that Jesus died and rose to save EVERYONE. Once you look at ALL people and see that Jesus will heal & bring ALL to salvation, then you will see the true burning fire of God's love in every human you see around you through the eyes of the heart, which is God's true love.
The popular mindset that God is conditional and that many will perish is continuing to cause people to seek God out of fear rather than true love. If we truly study the scriptures in context and from the original language used to record them, we will see how the enemy has used the doctrine of "hell" and "torment" to separate God from ALL his creation. It's the enemy's worse possible slander and deception of God! I pray that our eyes be opened to God's true mercy and love, and that the unbiblical message preached by mainstream Christianity will revert back to the original truth Paul preached so that people will finally be set free of fear to love God unconditionally, which is what he has wanted from the beginning. Remember, love casts out fear, the incorrect view of "hell" keeps fear alive, which is what the enemy wants. When you see ALL people as God does, then you will "get it" and your ministry will be blessed without measure.
The peace of the Lord be with you all. Amen

God "is perfect" the Scriptures say this, and logic (surely) tells us this is true, after all "missing the mark" results in death.. translated, of course, as "the wages of sin".

Which makes perfect sense to me, because I have to think thatGod is life. Itself.. the breath and spark of. So this 'wrong road' of life, missing the mark is imperfection, the opposite of life. (But how to prevent that? No thinking ability endowed?)

Bottom line (to me) being it is (surely?) absolutely impossible for Perfection to make any mistake(s).. impossible to be taken by surprise by anything :laughing7:

And, it is certainly impossible to lose anything, certainly not any one, let alone 1/3 of His angels and 3/4's of humanity!

The whole ancient superstition of afterlife punishment, I believe is totally ridiculous. Once we know the 5 words mistakenly translated to read 'hell' and acquaint ourselves with the original (biblical) Sheol, before legend or evolution of the word.. And how aion/eon cannot really mean for ever. And the literal bible from Genesis to Apocalypse is simple and logical. What's built on sand or is the wrong way, cannot endure.. but fades. Dies.

And, to me, all 'wrath' is merely consequences. This learning of good from evil, fiery judgments also results of man's own doings.. And I don't blame God for wanting Israel to destroy the Canaanite nation's (nephilim?) Nor at the flood.. Otherwise humanity would have imploded long ago.  And wher would you and I be? Never born. And the fire He returns in, I also believe to nan's doing.. and the tares gathered and burned I simply believe to be the gathering to Armageddon. And we know He resurrects all. "All the ends of Earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and ALL families of the nations will worship before Him" Ps.22:27. And Jesus will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32. Even the Canaanites who were so heavily into human sacrifice.

The way I see it.. all of this - history/ life as we presently know it, is unavoidable. If we are to be rational, able to think, reason and ponder, and yes even make choices.. but the only safe choice is one based on proper discernment, and full understanding of good from evil , which I think is life from death (as nekros, lack of life/not living).

It seems kind of simple to me, too. But I've not been "taught". This year is my 40th of being a believer and studying, etc. And my exposure to 'Christianity' has been extremely limited. I used to think I should feel bad about that.. but i'm very happy about it after finding out how deeply entrenched the errors are in ET.

From my posts at https://youtu.be/EWVYZqFYMjM
"first Advent, Christ came to save.  At the second, he comes to judge.  He will repay the wicked according to their works." When will God restore Sodom?

Ezekiel 16 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+16&version=NIV
46 *Your older sister was Samaria,* who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and *your younger sister,* who lived to the south of you with her daughters, *was Sodom.*  47 You not only followed their ways and copied their detestable practices, but *in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they.*  48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, *your sister Sodom* and her daughters *never did what you and your daughters have done.*

49 Now this was the sin of *your sister Sodom:*  She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.  50 They were haughty and *did detestable things before me.  Therefore I did away with them* as you have seen.  51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did.  You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done.  52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53 However, *I will restore the fortunes of Sodom* and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, *Sodom* with her daughters *and Samaria* with her daughters, *will return to what they were before;* and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edom and all her neighbors and the daughters of the Philistines-- all those around you who despise you. 58 You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your detestable practices, declares the Lord.

59 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:  *I will deal with you as you deserve,* because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant.  60 *Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.*  61 Then *you will* remember your ways and be ashamed when you *receive your sisters,* both those who are older than you and those who are younger.  I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you.  62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord.  63 Then, *when I make atonement for you for all you have done,* you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord.

Do you agree with verses 10-12?
Hebrews 8 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+8&version=NKJV
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says:  "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.  10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:  I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."  13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.  Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Do you agree with verse 22?:
1 Corinthians 15 (NKJV)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For *as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.* 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes *the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.* 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now *when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.*

=========================
"the precious blood of dear Christ Jesus is SO priceless"
Is there anything that that priceless blood can't purchase?  Do you think all those of the House of Israel will know God, "from the least to the greatest"?
Hebrews 8 (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:  and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

"the Righteous Judge will be more excellent in His decision to implement execution in the most righteous way"
Could that judge implement reconciliation "in the most righteous way"?   
Col 1:20 (KJV) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Do you agree with verse 18?:   
Romans 5:12-19 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If I created a being that could feel pain, and placed that being in a location where he would experience a constant, very high level of pain for an infinite length of time, what would you call me?  (a torturer?  a sadist?)

In the very end, everyone will be saved.  Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost, and in the end, Jesus will be completely successful.  He'll leave the 99 and get that lost sheep.  He'll sweep the house and get that lost coin.  He'll wait expectantly for that last prodigal to return.

There's a whole branch of Christianity that thinks God keeps pursuing people, even those people that go to hell:
Orthodox view of Salvation
https://youtu.be/WosgwLekgn8

_Heaven's Doors: Wider Than You Ever Believed!_ (2017) by George W. Sarris https://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Doors-Wider-Than-Believed/dp/0980085322/ chapter 4, "What did the early Church teach?"  On 39, it says Alexandria, Caesarea, Antioch, and Eastern Syria believed in ultimate restoration, while Asia Minor was annihilationist, and Northern Africa adhered to never-ending torture.

Do you think Jesus will follow-through on his John 12:32 promise to "draw all men unto" himself?
John 3:14 (KJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Do you think God:  allowed all to fall into disobedience?  will have mercy on all? 
Do you agree with verse 26 that "all Israel will be saved"?:
Romans 11 (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  26 And so *all Israel will be saved,* as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When *I take away their sins."*
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.  30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.  32 For *God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.*
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For *of Him and through Him and to Him are all things,* to whom be glory forever.  Amen.

The Bible contains progressive revelation about God, and some things said about God conflict with other things said about God.  Do you think God prompted David to sin by taking a census?  (A later, more theologically-informed rendition has satan and not God prompting the sin.)
2 Samuel 24
1 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." ....  10 And David's heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."
1 Chronicles 21
1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.  ....  7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore He struck Israel. 8 So David said to God, "I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing; but now, I pray, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."

Do you think "every tongue" will "confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"?
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:  and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

note howHe bound up all in sin and disobedience..in order to remove any false pride or boasting[formed us all weak and corruptible

in the image of the corrupt]That we all shut our mouth..finger pointing/faultfinding.[let he who has no sin cast the first stone]

Canyou say,'every man is a liar and God alone is true..in order that you may be justified?]

andyet,of our RETURN to our former state[what we was before]HE SAYS..the former things shall be forgotton..and


MY PEOPLE SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED.... In our yet imperfect state...there is despising of sin and shame and nakedness..even

our Lord Jesus despised the shame ...Hebrews 12;2...but our humiliation now..is nothing compared to the Glory that awaits.


I believe He not only breaks up the works of the devil..but will totally destroy them..and that it will be a shameful thing

to even mention them.

  Ephesians5;3 ...let fornication,greed and impurity not once be named among you

and5;12.......FOR IT IS SHAMEFUL TO EVEN MENTION WHAT THE DISOBEDIENT DO IN SECRET

v 8 for you were once darkness,but now are light in the LORD. :2c:

Matt 1;19-25......v 19 BECAUSE JOSEPH HER HUSBAND WAS A JUST MAN,,,,,,,,,AND DID NOT WANT TO EXPOSE HER TO PUBLIC

DISGRACE.............


Just spirits of men made perfect.Hebrews 12;22-24But,you havecome to mount Zion..the Heavenly Jerusalem,the city of the living God

You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,to the church of the firstborn,whose names are written

in heaven.You have come to God the judge of  all men[He says,my people will not be ashamed"],to the Spirits of just men made perfect

TOJESUS..themediatorof anew covenant[the same one whom said of the womancaught in the act...he who is without sin cast the first

stone]and to the sprinkled blood that speaks abetter word than the blood of Abel. :2c:

Psalms 32;2 and Roman4;8

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him....and in whose spirit is no deceit.[Psalms32;2]

Romans4;7,8Blessedaretheywhosetransgressions areforgiven,whosesins arecovered.

Blessed is the man whose sins  THE LORD WILL NEVER COUNT AGAINST HIM.



Making an END of SIN...

Daniel9;24seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people.....to finish transgression,TO PUT AN END TO SIN,TO ATONE FOR WICKEDNESS

to bring in Everlasting righteousness..to SEAL UP vision and Prophecy...AND TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.


Matt 18;22...Lord,how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me?Up to seven times?

Jesus answered,"I tellyou,not seven times but seventy seven times.70X7's and7+77

verse 32,33.YOU WICKED SERVANT....SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE HAD MERCY ON YOUR FELLOW SERVANTS JUST AS I HAD ON YOU?

[v

Matt 25;14-30

Matt 24;45,50-5130but he refused,he went off and had the man thrown in prison until he could pay the debt

Matt 6;15...BUT IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE MEN THEIR SINS,YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS.

LAW_SUITS AMONG BELIEVERS...1Cor,6;7 THE VERY FACT THAT YOU HAVE LAWSUITS[lawyers]AMONG YOU MEANS YOU HAVE

BEEN COMPLETELY DEFEATED ALREADY.

LAWYERS Isaaih 59;4

Luke 11;45-52andJohn8;32...and you experts in the law ,woe to you!.Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

                                                                                                                     :2c:

"Romans 9:23-‬24 Who are the 'us' the writer refers to here?"
Maybe all people-- everybody.

_Chosen For Paradise:  Reframing Election in Romans 9-11_ by John Crowder, on 79 and the back cover
https://www.amazon.com/Chosen-Paradise-Reframing-Election-Romans/dp/0977082652/
Who are the vessels of wrath?  In Romans 9:22, Paul says the Israelites.  God's _chosen people are also the vessels of wrath!_  ....the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy are the same individuals.  ....  God is not choosing one human over another.  Jesus Christ is the chosen, elected man on behalf of all humanity.  And you are fully included in Him.

QUOTE from David Frost --
"...shortly after 100 B.C. Sheol is described for the first time as an abode of fire, as in the New Testament."
_________________

This is, imo, because of three things.
(1)John the Baptist and Jesus alluding to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
(2)the coming thermonuclear age alluded to in the Book of Revelation
(3)the lake of fire, which more and more I believe to be the "baptism by fire" which all must experience; and also the "all in all" event when God "makes all things new".
And (4)the Gehenna dump in the valley Tophet

I did a study, for my own benefit.. which I'm thinking fits very good here..

I think of it as "HOW BOTH the ORIGINAL BIBLICAL SHEOL, and FIERY JUDGMENT (earthly!) BECAME INACCURATELY PERCEIVED and PORTRAYED AS 'hell'.

["...Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him." Daniel 7:27]

"Therefore wait upon me, says the Lord until the day that I rise up.. for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them my indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy." Zephaniah 3:8 (I read that this verse uses every letter of the Hebrew alphabet(?) [And I think His indignation and anger is consequences and results of man's own doings! Because He is SO wise, AND SO utterly capable.]

"Then was the (empires of man, the) iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, were broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors, and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." Daniel 2:35

"Now also many nations are gathered against you that say, Let her be defiled and let our eye look upon Zion. But they know not the thoughts of the Lord, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor. Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make your horn iron, and I will make your hoofs brass: and thou shall beat in pieces many and I will consecrate their gain to the Lord, and their substance to the Lord of the whole earth." Micah 4:12-13


[Arema-gai-dun - "A heap of sheaves in a valley for judgement."]

"Let the nation's be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." Joel 3:12-14

[Jehoshaphat's name - "The Judgements of Yah"]

I read this which I found interesting and it's stuck with me, about the symbol or theme, of "threshing judgements" of God.

The Hebrew word for "decision" is "chawruts" which also means "threshing instruments" - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2742.htm

The allusion is a plain of a valley.. "God's threshing floor" - And where it was - Jerusalem.. where Herod's Temple stood in the time of Jesus.. And the one before it, in Nehemiah and Ezra's days, before then, Solomon's Temple, built where had been the altar of David built "on the threshing floor" 1 Chronicles 21:18,22.

Which too, as we know, is the place where the faith of Abraham was tested in the test of 'Isaac's sacrifice' 2 Chronicles 3:1; Genesis 22:2, at the very heart of the land God promised to Abraham.

God's judgement upon the nations - allowing the results of mankind 's doing to fully unfold.. By it "He will settle His controversy with the nations" (Jer. 25:31) and is "the beginning of His long program of judging the world with righteousness" - I read that phrase somewhere, but I don't remember where, but used it.

It's not just a fiery war between nations, but is the return of Jesus - "He comes with his angels and in fire.." 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8.

At what is called "the Great and the Terrible Day of the Lord" Joel 2:30,31.. Ezekiel 38; Zechariah 12-14; etc. And Revelation 16:14-16, Armageddon, "when the nations are gathered together for the battle of that great day of God Almighty".

"And as the toes of the feet were part of iron (Roman based/western?), and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.. and in the days of those (ten) kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and this kingdom will not be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever" Daniel 2:42,44.

"In my vision in the night I continued to watch: And I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.
-- And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship - so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.. and the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him." Daniel 7:27. [1 Corinthians 15:22--->28]

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting agelasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly..." Daniel 12:2-4.

The TWO HARVESTS -
Revelation 14:16-20 and verse 10 (and we know where the next verse says 'forever' the word is more like a duration of time. From short to long?)

"..and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" Matthew 24:30.

"16 And the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood (oil?) came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs." Revelation 14:16-20.

14:10 -  ..whosoever..shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The next verse (11) in an interlinear word for word version, says, "and the smoke of the torment of them to ages of ages goes up.."

Personally, I think that's a fancy way of saying that the whole thing - the end result - of the wrong and wayward way - will never be forgotten.

But above all! --- Not Afterlife torment. Not 'hell'.  :girlheart:

...at that threshing floor...is where the plague of death is stopped....when David numbered Israel.For it was not the will of God that


the salvation of All be revealed at that time. :2c:

Amen! ..amen also "an end of sin".. I actually think all judgment on judgment 'day' will be sure initially some hard come uppance for the worst of the worst.. within. :dontknow: It's just how it seems to me. (That judgment will be within.)

I think "the judgment will be at least 80% good things. Good things 'written' in the books.. For one thing, every spark of Iove, of courtesy, of respect, that's God himself.. and the Lord. History may be a terrible witness and proof, but there's families, friendship.. so many good things in life and in things people do. Acts of kindness, empathy's.. encouragement, every smile. None of us are perfect.. never were.. but if He tells us to love Mercy, how can we think that he doesn't?
:friendstu: ..,.things will be so subdued that a small child will be able to play at the entrance to the poisonous snake den, Isaiah 11. His people will be able to sleep in the forest, Isaiah 65?

Rev 15;4Who will not fearyou,O'Lord and bring glory to YOUR NAME?For you alone are holy...........


ALL NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP  BEFORE YOU,FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS 'ACTS"HAVE BEEN REVEALED......


the'act"...Romans5;18,19..so,just as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners

SO ALSO THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF THE ONE MAN...THE MANY SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS

Psalms50;16-18 But to the wicked,God says...what right have you to recite my laws?or take my covenant on your lips?

You hate my instruction,and cast my words behind you[freely forgive].when you see a thief you joined withhim

[house of prayer for all men]....

you use your mouth for evil[accuser]you speak continually against your brother,and slander your own mother's son.


Isaaih 54;17NO WEAPON FORGED AGAINST YOU WILL PREVAIL...AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TOUGNE THAT ACCUSES YOU

:2c:ps..not written against you,Marie..just needed to say this in regard to God's mercy unto all men triumphing over judgement.

no more devouring[beastly ways to each other]and accusing[serpents harming]

"how many gods do you believe in?"  One.
"Why is god a human? Why does god have parts?"  God took on a human earth-suit.  Human earth-suits typically have arms, legs, etc.

"Why did god kill himself?"  The prophet Jesus who is God allowed humans to kill his physical body (they couldn't injure his spirit).  Jesus lived a totally perfect life-- never sinning once-- and brought into his physical body all of humanity's sins and sicknesses.  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a radically-changed, glorified body.  The poison of humanity's sins and sickness had been successfully captured and discarded, undoing what occurred in the Garden of Eden with Adam's failure.

_Unlocking the Mystery of Divine Healing_ by Tony Myers, 66, 67
https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Mystery-Divine-Healing-Myers/dp/1912045575/
The cross wasn't God pouring out His wrath onto Jesus, as is [commonly] taught; it was Jesus accepting sin into His body, thereby trapping sin.  Then, when He gave His life, Jesus took sin out of this world.  ....Christ had to be perfect and was perfect.  There was no contamination within Christ's body, therefore he alone could contain the sin of Adam and Israel.

Romans 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
1 Corinthians 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:45  And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being."  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Isaiah 53:5  But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
1 Peter 2:24  who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed.

Quote from: DavidFord on February 03, 2019, 03:45:56 AM
"Why did god kill himself?"  The prophet Jesus who is God allowed humans to kill his physical body (they couldn't injure his spirit).  Jesus lived a totally perfect life-- never sinning once-- and brought into his physical body all of humanity's sins and sicknesses.  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a brand new body.  The poison of humanity's sins and sickness had been successfully captured and discarded, undoing what occurred in the Garden of Eden with Adam's failure.

So like a sponge?

Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 03, 2019, 04:10:26 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on February 03, 2019, 03:45:56 AM
"Why did god kill himself?"  The prophet Jesus who is God allowed humans to kill his physical body (they couldn't injure his spirit).  Jesus lived a totally perfect life-- never sinning once-- and brought into his physical body all of humanity's sins and sicknesses.  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a brand new body.  The poison of humanity's sins and sickness had been successfully captured and discarded, undoing what occurred in the Garden of Eden with Adam's failure.

So like a sponge?

Eh, I'd say like a sterile tube, which captures bacteria for disposal.

_Unlocking the Mystery of Divine Healing_ by Tony Myers, 66, 67
https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Mystery-Divine-Healing-Myers/dp/1912045575/
The cross wasn't God pouring out His wrath onto Jesus, as is [commonly] taught; it was Jesus accepting sin into His body, thereby trapping sin.  Then, when He gave His life, Jesus took sin out of this world.  ....Christ had to be perfect and was perfect.  There was no contamination within Christ's body, therefore he alone could contain the sin of Adam and Israel.

I edited a sentence to instead read:  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a radically-changed, glorified body.

Quote from: sheila on January 27, 2019, 07:10:28 PM
Rev 15;4Who will not fearyou,O'Lord and bring glory to YOUR NAME?For you alone are holy...........


ALL NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP  BEFORE YOU,FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS 'ACTS"HAVE BEEN REVEALED......


the'act"...Romans5;18,19..so,just as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners

SO ALSO THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF THE ONE MAN...THE MANY SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS

Psalms50;16-18 But to the wicked,God says...what right have you to recite my laws?or take my covenant on your lips?

You hate my instruction,and cast my words behind you[freely forgive].when you see a thief you joined withhim

[house of prayer for all men]....

you use your mouth for evil[accuser]you speak continually against your brother,and slander your own mother's son.


Isaaih 54;17NO WEAPON FORGED AGAINST YOU WILL PREVAIL...AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TOUGNE THAT ACCUSES YOU

:2c:ps..not written against you,Marie..just needed to say this in regard to God's mercy unto all men triumphing over judgement.

no more devouring[beastly ways to each other]and accusing[serpents harming]

Awesome verses, Sheila! It all seems so obvious..

I often think of this verse too, as even on it's own, proving UR - Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God ^{(by the death of His Son")}

"All" reconciled ("all, every, the whole")..

Also great verses David Ford!

 :2c: the cross was all about not counting men's sins against them[forgiveness..even when/while they put you to a painful death......]

Love keeps no account of the injury...love heals..physician heal thyself.Takeaway all their sin[no account of the injury]sin is missing

the mark of perfect love.....ademon[devil/liar spirit that does not have the Father's love/truth nature]it does not rejoice with the truth

it has not the love of God or man in it.this spirit must be led away to it's destruction by our HIGH PRIEST[take all their sin away]

  Jesus told the Pharisee's sadducees..that they did not have the love of God in them..that they had never seen His shape or form[LOVE]

  the wicked spirit of man[ofsin] in the corrupt image must die..that the new spirit[incorruptible/perfect love]may live eternally.

hardened hearts are like wax cooling[love of the many wil wax cold]shattered.you have heard mensay,'Iwillnever forgive that]...

love cools because of the many offenses into unforgiveness,hard hearts

the elements[thoughts of God]being intensely hot will melt.God's heart melts for us in our pitiful condition.The Lamb is worthy

to open the seals. Rev 5;2He goes forth waging righteous warfare against hard hearts..he shepherds hard hearts with an iron rod

and shatters their vessel like a clay pot.[hardened hearts set in their ways]that they may receive a new spirit[love]If the

righteous strike me it would even be a blessing.


Listen..we must keep the flame of LOVE burning in our hearts..we must be LOVE in this great darkness............where iniquity abounds

Grace must abound all the more. The adversary is all about the destruction[destroyer/]of LOVE.


Love is the spirit of life..it lays it's body down willingly..in order to take it back up again.John10;18no man takes it from me.=He did

not have to die to assuage the Father's sense of justice..but to be an example of the PERFECT LOVE AND FORGIVENESS...

hey,sometimes hard hearts want your blood..and we have to resist sin[falling short of perfect love]and willingly lay it down.

sometimes we have to suffer blows for others sake[leave these alone then]those'weak in faith"or weakness of flesh" :2c:

Great US verse..Psalms 4,5Sing to the Lord you saints of his;Praise His holy name

FOR HIS ANGER [wrath]LASTS ONLY A MOMENT...BUT HIS FAVOUR LASTS A LIFETIME

WEEPING MAY REMAIN FOR A NIGHT[darkness of this world]

BUT REJOICING COMES IN THE MORNING[sonrise/resurrection..day star rises in your heart]

you know..it's hard to read the scriptures by starlight..full sunlight is better


   Rev 21;25 on no day will it's gates ever be shut..FOR THERE WILL BE NO NIGHT THERE

Great posts Sheila

TY GIL.... :girlheart:

 
  Lovely !      no law against LOVE .......
But the law is set  in such a high standard  , if you break just one law you have broken   them all  !!!!!
making everyone   

  I see this as  no one keeps  the whole law  but Jesus , we HAVE to be hid in Christ to  remain   holy /pure /clean .


James 2 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.



10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


  I believe in order for the truth to set you FREE  , you have to  FORGIVE    and LOVE  at all times  .

  truly everyone is   saved by Gods grace though Jesus Christ .

 :thumbsup: :girlheart: Amen Rose! And we can only do that by abiding in Him, He's the vine, we the branches.

Because "God is love".. And so, like Sheila said,  no boasting. For no one can ever boast, no matter how much we will all fulfill all the law, by His perfect love, no one can ever boast.. for truth is, it is His love.. is Him.. The perfect way, to make all perfect.. :cloud9: :banana:

:Chinscratch: So not only do we have one rule - "love" but we have at foundation, one 'activity' to abide in Him.. to remain under the shadow and wing of the Almighty.  :cloud9: "truth sets free" ...His "yoke is easy, His burden is light"... {So why do we struggle? When what we need to do is to yield and submit, giving ourselves wholly to Him. And it's my personal conviction, this is what He most meant by "come eat and drink" - our daily 'bread' and the new wine of God's Spirit - "in remembrance of Me".. In stressful or hard times, yielding all the more that the refiner's  fire can more quickly do His work in us.. He who is faithful to complete the work, in us, He has begun.

Quote
posted by David,
Matthew 25:31-46 is the passage many turn to for the doctrine of 'hell' or 'eternal torment', but sadly people rarely read the specific context of what is going on in Matthew 25:31-46? We find the use of the words follow a specific judgement, at a specific future time, involving a specific group.

I won't post all the verses here but below is a summary of Matthew 25:31-46, highlighting some key points that are often overlooked.

(1)The target audience is NATIONS
(2)They are GATHERED (not resurrected from the dead as in Revelation 20:12) so are living at the time.
(3)TWO ‘GROUPS’ are formed in the judgement - Sheep (Right hand) / Goats (Left hand).
(4)REASON For Judgement – The King’s brethren Hungered, was Thirsty, a Stranger, Naked, Infirm or in Jail. Which of the nations responded to these circumstances? (So it's a humanitarian judgement)
(5)RESULT of the Judgement - The Sheep (nations) responded to the above circumstances, so WILL ENJOY AGE-ABIDING/DURING LIFE in the allotment of the kingdom (notice NOT rule and reign in it), but the Goat (nations) did not respond to the above circumstances, so will go away to AGE-ABIDING/DURING CORRECTION/PUNISHMENT/CHASTENING.
(BOTH the Sheep and the Goat nations actually acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the judgement).

"Bringing eschatology into harmony with Christian theology of God" - did/has occurred. [ :eek: ]  How nice (blessed!) to know otherwise! Than the image and end result ET portrays and presents!

No matter how low we go (humanity/collectively, and even individually!) He wins in the 'end'. He always wins!

Mankind could repent, change their mind and the world be redeemed before mankind brings their world to ruin (unless the world turns, it cannot thrive and endure). And worse case scenario, the world doesn't repent and turn to and fully submit to the Lord, and they continue on upon the wrong "way", the road which leads to death and destruction --- He still wins. :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

Because  :iagree: "on (the) Judgment 'Day' all - the sheep and the goats - will acknowledge Him as Lord".

"Every tongue will wholeheartedly -according to the Greek - confess He is Lord" (Phil.2:11) ..."All the ends of Earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nation's will worship before Him." ....in what other age could this occur? When all join in praising Him.. All praising Him, would surely become the state of God being "all in all" (Rev.21:1-5?)

...Bringing Christian theology into harmony with the scripture.. Christian theology into harmony with the (true) eschatology of God's Word...? "If I be lifted up from the Earth (signifying what death He would experience) I will draw all to Me." John 12:32. [ET locks that verse in a box called no hope after this brief life. But God's Word cannot be kept in a box!]

Quote from: marie glen on February 04, 2019, 03:32:27 PM
:thumbsup: :girlheart: Amen Rose! And we can only do that by abiding in Him, He's the vine, we the branches.

Because "God is love".. And so, like Sheila said,  no boasting. For no one can ever boast, no matter how much we will all fulfill all the law, by His perfect love, no one can ever boast.. for truth is, it is His love.. is Him.. The perfect way, to make all perfect.. :cloud9: :banana:

:Chinscratch: So not only do we have one rule - "love" but we have at foundation, one 'activity' to abide in Him.. to remain under the shadow and wing of the Almighty.  :cloud9: "truth sets free" ...His "yoke is easy, His burden is light"... {So why do we struggle? When what we need to do is to yield and submit, giving ourselves wholly to Him. And it's my personal conviction, this is what He most meant by "come eat and drink" - our daily 'bread' and the new wine of God's Spirit - "in remembrance of Me".. In stressful or hard times, yielding all the more that the refiner's  fire can more quickly do His work in us.. He who is faithful to complete the work, in us, He has begun.

   Amen sister Marie !       I see the law of life and death as the good and evil   that the world of darkness   ,    that produces good fruit 

choose the good   ,     but the tree of Life  is the  perfect law of liberty    , the Light and life 

   If the law is the mirror in which we look though  that mirror darkly   1 Cor 13 but not to remain in the darkness

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.


12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

I feel as if   we  are becoming the Lights unto the world  and    the  WORD / law of Love Life and liberty    shines forth   as the SON/ SUN we can and will SEE JESUS  AS HE IS  SO IN THIS WORLD ...

  light of men  Light is defined as life, as seen in John 1:4, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men". ... In John, "darkness is present in the absence of light; the absence of eternal life," and darkness referring to death, spiritually. Those who walk in darkness do not have eternal life because they are unknown to God.   we are to be a LIGHT  and share the knowledge of GOD     , HIS WORD IS life and beautiful   truth   as HIS LIFE in us  !!!!!!!! 



The Beginning
...3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it....

John 3:19
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.

John 8:12
Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 9:5
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in Me should remain in darkness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands--this is the Word of life.

1 John 1:2
And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

1 John 5:11
And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


loving those whom love us is easy , it is loving   those whom  despise  us  that proves the test as true  and found in Him !!  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:             

Amen! I was reading some interesting commentary yesterday about the seven lampstands in Rev 1, how the lampstands (churches/us) are not the light, but are to shine the light.. provided by the oil... All very obvious but I'd never thought it through. And Jesus is in the midst of the lampstands..

Lamps shining His light.. which the greatest (fruit) of, is love..
:gsmile: :HeartThrob:

Also.. love realizes imperfection/missing the mark (opposite of He Who "is Perfect") (which actually is a potential bottomless pit?) no matter how happy or comfortable one is, an imperfect world or reality can never be good enough! Not as long as any one person suffers!!
Or is not happy, whole, and blessed..

Quote from: marie glen on February 05, 2019, 03:59:36 PM
Amen! I was reading some interesting commentary yesterday about the seven lampstands in Rev 1, how the lampstands (churches/us) are not the light, but are to shine the light.. provided by the oil... All very obvious but I'd never thought it through. And Jesus is in the midst of the lampstands..

Lamps shining His light.. which the greatest (fruit) of, is love..
:gsmile: :HeartThrob:

  Amen sis and they are in JESUS CHRIST right hand of power   , may the light shine brighter as we see the DAY  approaching   

The Light  and fire and breath of  His coming , destroying the evil  ,  and glad for that !!!!!!!!!   2 Thess 2   8

The Man of Lawlessness
...7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival.


9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder,...     

for me the  term ,   that old beast and whore   she rides will destroy her  ,  of self righteous pride of life , he has working in Him because the Father put it in his heart to destroy her  , eat her flesh and  burn her with fire ,   than Jesus will show HIM the error of his doings    by the WORD  spoken  in power and all authority   , taking captivity captive  !

None especially Jesus wants us to remain captive to the evil one  ruling our hearts forever  , prayers  for all  to keep us from the  evil one , that broad path of destruction .......
  I am glad when He takes the evil one   out  of  the way , that stumbling block  of lawlessness    , the beast , the beast along with mankind created on the 6 day   for Gods glory ... even the evil one was made for Gods glory in the end if all things  , as we wait o the LORD to do His mighty thing .

Making the WORD OF GOD so true and  full of righteous  TRUTH , making believers out  of us all ........

for me to understand it , it must be a simple truth  , that a child of the Lords own spirit  can understand it .
Maybe more to it than I understand  at this time , but it keeps   the faith and hope and love alive and remains  so far , maybe even a better resurrection[ coming up out of death to a new Life  in Christ ]  than when I first believed  .

We testify to what we believe as truth and Light and Life  , that may encourage others and  stumble others , but it is not my own intentions and motives of the heart to do so .
Never has there been a place to speak so freely  of our faith  without being   cast out  as the Tentmaker forum .
I do thank God we are able to share  what is in our hearts so freely without  condemnation . 

  Most would  already  dismiss every sign of   the salvation of all   as a lying spirit and false prophecy  , I just think they do not know the power of God yet   and wait  for Him  in   the  fulfilling of everything   Held in Himself when HE rises up  totally   to   glorify    HIMSELF,  it is praised to the highest degree possible   in His new creation !!!

For me ,,,it  is exciting  and so  full of life and living things  to ponder upon !!!!!! 

Quote from: DavidFord on February 03, 2019, 06:22:27 AM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 03, 2019, 04:10:26 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on February 03, 2019, 03:45:56 AM
"Why did god kill himself?"  The prophet Jesus who is God allowed humans to kill his physical body (they couldn't injure his spirit).  Jesus lived a totally perfect life-- never sinning once-- and brought into his physical body all of humanity's sins and sicknesses.  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a brand new body.  The poison of humanity's sins and sickness had been successfully captured and discarded, undoing what occurred in the Garden of Eden with Adam's failure.

So like a sponge?

Eh, I'd say like a sterile tube, which captures bacteria for disposal.

_Unlocking the Mystery of Divine Healing_ by Tony Myers, 66, 67
https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Mystery-Divine-Healing-Myers/dp/1912045575/
The cross wasn't God pouring out His wrath onto Jesus, as is [commonly] taught; it was Jesus accepting sin into His body, thereby trapping sin.  Then, when He gave His life, Jesus took sin out of this world.  ....Christ had to be perfect and was perfect.  There was no contamination within Christ's body, therefore he alone could contain the sin of Adam and Israel.

I edited a sentence to instead read:  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a radically-changed, glorified body.

Lol@sterile tube.

Enjoyed reading this David, great way of putting it and looks like an interesting book.

"God gave Adam (Man) power, and authority, and dominion in the earth"
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Genesis 1:28 Then God blessed them [Adam and Eve], and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

"What Adam surrendered to satan in rebellion, Yeshua (Jesus) took back in obedience"
Romans 5 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5&version=NKJV
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense.  *For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.*  16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned.  For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but *the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.* 17 *For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)*  18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so *through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.*  19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also *by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.*

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so *in Christ all shall be made alive.*
1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being."  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

"He said that all of us, who believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that he is Lord"
Romans 10:8-10   8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):  9 that *if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus* and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.  10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and *no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.*
Philippians 2:9-11  9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that *every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,* to the glory of God the Father.

"are made a new creation, sons and daughters of God and, we are one with him, as he is one with the Father"
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, *if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;*
old things have passed away;
behold, all things have become new.
1 Cor 15:28 Now when *all things are made subject to Him,* then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Eph 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might *gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.*
Romans 11:36 For of Him and through Him and *to Him are all things,* to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Amen Rose! I love how slight differences of perception are not a big deal here at Tentmakers forum.. which keeps that spirit of freedom and also of love alive..

Especially in these days which to me, seem to be getting more and more divisive - in the world that is. Silly humans.. always falling into the same traps. Easily led, so it seems like getting rid of the voice that contradicts the world's agenda will not be that hard one day to accomplish! But no matter.. as you've said, the beast - it's ten divisions/kings/toes (of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue) will (finally) consume Babylon the great empire of man gone global and harlot/Greek-"pornos/to sell"..

And the mountain made without hands will strike the toes (of the statue of man's empires) and that mountain will fill the Earth, and knowledge of the LORD will cover the Earth like water covers the seas.. :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: i.e. also no more beast and beast like in the heart of man, or in any, once all is said and done.. which includes no more trying to rule others.. domination so dominant in the affairs and history of mankind..

Quote from: marie glen on February 06, 2019, 06:09:05 PM
Amen Rose! I love how slight differences of perception are not a big deal here at Tentmakers forum.. which keeps that spirit of freedom and also of love alive..

Especially in these days which to me, seem to be getting more and more divisive - in the world that is. Silly humans.. always falling into the same traps. Easily led, so it seems like getting rid of the voice that contradicts the world's agenda will not be that hard one day to accomplish! But no matter.. as you've said, the beast - it's ten divisions/kings/toes (of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue) will (finally) consume Babylon the great empire of man gone global and harlot/Greek-"pornos/to sell"..

And the mountain made without hands will strike the toes (of the statue of man's empires) and that mountain will fill the Earth, and knowledge of the LORD will cover the Earth like water covers the seas.. :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: i.e. also no more beast and beast like in the heart of man, or in any, once all is said and done.. which includes no more trying to rule others.. domination so dominant in the affairs and history of mankind..

  Blessings sis Marie  :dsunny:   YES!! amen !   

  I also love the scriptures that speaks   the truth in Love .  :HeartThrob:


1 John 4   and 5    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=YLT (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4&version=YLT)


About the spirits  in the world and   being careful how we hear .

I very much desire the salvation of all   to be the truth   in Love .

I copy / pasted these verses from Romans 5 from David's post.

QuoteRomans 5

12 Therefore, JUST AS through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all..

19 For as by one man's disobedience (the?) many were made sinners, so also, by one Man's obedience (the?) many will be made righteous.

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, MUCH MORE the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.  19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

And THIS (UR?) gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed in the whole earth, for a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:14

Quote from: marie glen on February 07, 2019, 02:50:24 PM
I copy / pasted these verses from Romans 5 from David's post.

QuoteRomans 5

12 Therefore, JUST AS through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all..

19 For as by one man's disobedience (the?) many were made sinners, so also, by one Man's obedience (the?) many will be made righteous.

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, MUCH MORE the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.  19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

And THIS (UR?) gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed in the whole earth, for a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:14

  Thanks Marie , Sheila    and David   for these  posts ......

  You made me think of many things I have considered  now , that never entered my mind before   that past few years of all our brothers and sisters sharing the gospel , good news  on the Tentmaker site .

  How  the revealing of  Jesus Christ   would come to those as  rewards  or more of Him being  seen /exposed and known , not only by the great cloud of witnesses of the old testament   , but  the new  testament as well .


   3 things  ,  first  was the spirit of prophecy  being the testimony of Jesus  Christ   and how  it is being fulfilled when reading Daniel   12
  (ESV)
12 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.
But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."


  Second .I have come to believe it is   the bema seat of Christ  in the here and now  and Him judging/dividing  by the SWORD /Word , the sheep from the goats   and its   rewards   or rejection  being this  , those that abide in the vine   remain  on the narrow path that leads to LIFE in Christ and those that wander  onto the broad path that leads to destruction......

Greek, like English, uses the word "judge" in two senses. One sense in condemnation,the expression of very strong disapproval   , while the other sense is the giving out of rewards. The Bible says unbelievers will be judged in the first sense - condemnation,    contempt  of court    or   the offense of being disobedient to or disrespectful toward a court of law and its officers in the form of behavior that opposes or defies the authority, justice and dignity of the court.   while believers will be judged in the other sense - rewards.  more and more truth setting them free  by the law of Liberty  and Love being the  bond of perfection   and end result .

. Paul wrote.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad (2 Corinthians 5:10).

All believers will stand before God and be individually judged.

Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God (Romans 14:10).

What will happen at this judgment seat?   I do see the  division  Jesus said His baptism  of death , the CROSS  would bring [Luke 12 ;46-56  ]    though HE IS judging no man  , He is judging the works  of faith in obedience  to   Himself   as faithful servants of all  or the lack of  , or  beating the  other servants  , that Paul speaks of   testing  these works
  by fire 1 Corinthians 3:15

and that you, O Lord, are loving. Surely You will reward each person according to what He has done (Psalm 62:12).

Jesus said.

For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will reward each person according to what He has done (Matthew 16:27).

Paul wrote.

Knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free (Ephesians 6:8).

   Thirdly  I have considered    this   mortal life as   [as sin dwelling  within , dust of the earth old adam   that has been judged already to death and decay  ]  that no man has power over , I believe this is why Jesus said I judge no man  and Why Paul said it is no longer I that sins but the sin  that is indwelling in me, the body of death  [Romans 7 ] but thankful for the mind of Christ , being the Holy Spirit that anoites  and appoints Gods desire to  be done  in obedience . Just as JESUS always done and proved over and over again to heal and raise the dead  to life and  give power to those whom were overcome  with darkness  and this world .

This is why Jesus told them  whom judged the flesh  , they did not know  where He come from and was going , because it was always by the HOLY SPIRIT being poured out on all flesh  , as the WORD would come and fulfill the new testament prophecy  as the FATHER   SPOKE FROM THE BEGINNING as well as the old testament witness the Father testifying of the Son  COMING IN  GLORY

  John 8
14Jesus replied, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone when I judge; I am with the Father, who sent Me....

Peter is a great example of   of being turned around and healed  , once he was converted from the  old path  of destruction, satan sifting him like wheat  , this was his humbling and failures and denying JESUS  in his  works   3 times before the cock crowed  , but he was instructed to feed the lambs and sheep   after and we have his writings  to this day .
He said   This and what a blessing  for me to grasp it .

  It would be better if God would will it  that you suffer for doing good  like Jesus   than doing evil  , but Peter learned  though his suffering   for doing both   good and evil 
So Gods word is truth   ,  always  and applies to every last one of our lives   whom are learning  JESUS LIFE in righteousness

  1 Peter 3

Suffering for Righteousness
...16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you will be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.

17For it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit,...


Every last one of us have seen corruption , but the LORD JESUS CHRIST SAW NO CORRUPTION  , HE NEVER FAILED ONCE , but was the perfect sacrifice for all time  and ages   supplied by the  FATHER   because God so loved the world He gave His only begotten  / one of a kind Son  that whom so ever  would believe in Him  would not perish but inherit eternal Life .

  For me it is ,   each in their own order  as it is GOD WHOM saves and is glorified because of it   the the Body of Life    found in the LORD JESUS CHRIST , reconciling the world   though Him  , till God be all in all  .... 

..the Pharisses,sadducees said no prophet come out of Galilee[they forgot Jonah/Dove]thus they didn't know where the Christ come from..

though they received the sign of Jonah[dove]

Isaaih9;1....but in the future he will honour Galilee of the gentiles...by the way of the sea..along the Jordan.....

But after  I have risen....He said..I go ahead of you to Galilee.

when we give account of every word out of our mouth...it is best to say Romans 3;4....our lack of faith that He didn't take away all their

sins[after all we see men sin every day/judge by appearance of our eyes]our lack of faith that God

is not counting mens sins against them etc.when we doubt..or judge by the appearance of our eyes

we can't walk the way of the sea with wind and waves buffeting us..

I believe we may be judged that we had little faith or great faith..He may just say 'WHY DID YOU DOUBT?" :2c:

we sink beneath the waves when we doubt

lackoffaith

lightly edited, from https://youtu.be/K0WpHwOeRiQ
Marz 5 hours ago
.... it is the lie of Hell that has no biblical standing.
There is no such concept as "never ending punishment" or "eternal conscious torment" anywhere in original Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
The pagan man-made doctrine of never-ending punishment was added when the original scriptures were translated into Latin and later English. This is not a secret to anyone who has taken the time to do their due diligence.
ALL of God's judgements are purposeful and teach righteousness.
God is not a psychopath worse than Hitler, and Jesus is not an impotent failure savior.
The purpose of mankind is to be made in God's image, it is NOT a chance to choose between different eternal destinies.
The lie of Hell is being exposed, and the glory of The God and savior of ALL people, ESPECIALLY those that believe is being revealed, and the dark principalities and powers are being shaken, and some people don't like being awakened to the true glory of the God, father and savior of ALL!
But like it or not, the true Gospel will be heard!  In Jesus mighty unmatchable name!
Christ Triumphant!

Love that Marz!

     Speaking the truth in LOVE  !!!  :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:
 

Thanks   for this !

Quote from: Patinak on February 26, 2019, 07:25:37 AM
Love that Marz!

Quote from: DavidFord on February 26, 2019, 06:14:18 AM
lightly edited, from https://youtu.be/K0WpHwOeRiQ
Marz 5 hours ago
.... it is the lie of Hell that has no biblical standing.
There is no such concept as "never ending punishment" or "eternal conscious torment" anywhere in original Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
The pagan man-made doctrine of never-ending punishment was added when the original scriptures were translated into Latin and later English. This is not a secret to anyone who has taken the time to do their due diligence.
ALL of God's judgements are purposeful and teach righteousness.
God is not a psychopath worse than Hitler, and Jesus is not an impotent failure savior.
The purpose of mankind is to be made in God's image, it is NOT a chance to choose between different eternal destinies.
The lie of Hell is being exposed, and the glory of The God and savior of ALL people, ESPECIALLY those that believe is being revealed, and the dark principalities and powers are being shaken, and some people don't like being awakened to the true glory of the God, father and savior of ALL!
But like it or not, the true Gospel will be heard!  In Jesus mighty unmatchable name!
Christ Triumphant!

Amen! Especially - "The purpose of mankind is to be made in God's image, it is NOT a chance to choose between different eternal destinies." :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

...And amen sisters.. :thumbsup:

amen..but there is a real psychopath..that transforms himself into an angel[messenger]of light..that is actually darkness.....andmany

people know not what they worship. This 'false'image/idolofgod..Blasphemes God's NAME and JESUS[Savior/Love] and those who dwell

in heaven as well as men on earth....for filthy mammon every sunday. Judgingby appearance the flesh of menthey call'sinners' due to

seeing'sinworks'intheir flesh..they are as white washed graves..that outwardly appear clean,yet inside them is a most foul spirit/fullof

dead mens bones.  But those dead  :girlheart:men's bones shall live!!!!

the thirdtrumpet. Revelation of ChristRev 8;10  satan fell like a torch from heaven[transformed into angel of light] and made one third of

the waters 'bitter'many people died[spiritually] from the waters that had become bitter[goodnews turned into gospel of condemnation of

men] to the starving every bitter thing is 'sweet"but the BRANCH sweetens the waters to preserve life. Exodus 15;22-27 :girlheart:

My opinions, unless otherwise noted:
"Sheol is the grave, NOT Hell"
Are Hell and Hades different?  Is Hades in the LXX (a Greek translation of the OT)?

Sheol
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sheol/
Old Testament. The Hebrew word seol [l/a.v], "Sheol, " refers to the grave or the abode of the dead ( Psalms 88:3 Psalms 88:5 ). Through much of the Old Testament period, it was believed that all went one place, whether human or animal ( Psalms 49:12 Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:20 ), whether righteous or wicked ( Eccl 9:2-3 ). No one could avoid Sheol ( Psalm 49:9 ; 89:48 ), which was thought to be down in the lowest parts of the earth ( Deut 32:22 ; 1 Sam 28:11-15 ; Job 26:5 ; Psalm 86:13 ; Isa 7:11 ; Ezekiel 31:14-16 Ezekiel 31:18 ).

Unlike this world, Sheol is devoid of love, hate, envy, work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom ( Ecclesiastes 9:6 Ecclesiastes 9:10 ). Descriptions are bleak: There is no light ( Job 10:21-22 ; 17:13 ; Psalms 88:6 Psalms 88:12 ; 143:3 ), no remembrance ( Psalm 6:5 ; 88:12 ; Eccl 9:5 ), no praise of God ( Psalm 6:5 ; 30:9 ; 88:10-12 ; 115:17 ; Isa 38:18 ) — in fact, no sound at all ( Psalm 94:17 ; 115:17 ). Its inhabitants are weak, trembling shades ( Job 26:5 ; Psalm 88:10-12 ; Isa 14:9-10 ) who can never hope to escape from its gates ( Job 10:21 ; 17:13-16 ; Isa 38:10 ). Sheol is like a ravenous beast that swallows the living without being sated ( Prov 1:12 ; 27:20 ; Isa 5:14 ). Some thought the dead were cut off from God ( Psalm 88:3-5 ; Isa 38:11 ); while others believed that God's presence reached even to Sheol (Psalm 139:8 ).

Toward the end of the Old Testament, God revealed that there will be a resurrection of the dead ( Isa 26:19 ). Sheol will devour no longer; instead God will swallow up Death ( Isa 25:8 ). The faithful will be rewarded with everlasting life while the rest will experience eternal contempt ( Dan 12:2 ). This theology developed further in the intertestamental period.

The New Testament. By the time of Jesus, it was common for Jews to believe that the righteous dead go to a place of comfort while the wicked go to Hades ("Hades" normally translates "Sheol" in the LXX), a place of torment ( Luke 16:22-23 ).

My opinions, unless otherwise noted:
"What kind of 'good father' would burn his child's hand in a fire, if the child did wrong-- please explain"
If a father tells his child, "Don't touch the stove," and then she touches the stove and gets burned, the child may conclude that her father burned her hand in response to her disobedience.  In reality, the stove was hot, and touching the hot stove resulted in a burned hand.  God is a good father; people getting burned/hurt because of their (or another's) ignoring God & instead doing wrong isn't God burning them.

"All those verses you quote above bar 1 or 2 in revelation refer to the grave not hell as a place of torment" 
Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus has Sheol being "a place of torment":
Luke 16, based on Paul Younan's translation from the original Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com
19. Now there was a certain rich man, and he would wear purple and linen. And everyday he would luxuriously make merry.
20. And there was a certain poor man whose name (was) Lazar.
And he would lay at the gate of that rich man, while being afflicted with sores.
21. And he was longing to fill his stomach
from the crumbs that fell from the table of that rich man.
But even the dogs would come lick his sores.
22. And now this happened:
that poor man died and the angels carried him to the bosom of Awraham,
and also that rich man died and was buried.
23. And while he was tormented in Sheol,
he lifted up his eyes and gazed from afar upon Awraham and upon Lazar at his bosom.
24. And he cried out in a loud voice and said,
Abbi [my father] Awraham, have compassion on me
and send Lazar that he may dip the tip (of) his finger in water
and moisten my tongue for me,
for behold, I'm tormented in this flame!'
25. Awraham said to him,
My son, remember that you received your good things during your life,
and Lazar his bad things.
And now behold, he is comfortable here
and you are tormented.
26. Besides all these things, a great chasm is placed between you and us
so that those who desire to pass over from here to you are not able,
and neither (are) those from there (able) to pass over to us.'
27. He said to him,
'If so, I beseech you abbi
that you send him to my father's house,
28. for I have five brothers.
Let him go witness (to) them
that they not also come to this place of torment.'
29. Awraham said to him,
They have Moshe and the nabia [prophets]--
let them hear them.'
30. But he said to him,
No abbi Awraham,
but if a man from the dead should go to them,
they will repent.'
31. Awraham said to him,
'If they do not listen to Moshe and to the nabia,
if a man should rise from the dead,
they would also not believe him.'"

"Romans 10:7 is nothing to do with the topic...other translations render the word there..the abyss...as in the grave...so where do you get hell from....pagan sources?"
The original Aramaic speaks there of the deep/abyss of Sheol:
Romans 10:7, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And who shall descend into the deep of Sheul,
And bring up the Meshiha from among the dead ?
(Murdock) Or, Who descendeth to the abyss of the grave,
and bringeth up Messiah from the place of the dead?
(Lamsa) And who has descended into the abyss of Sheol
and brought up Christ from the dead?
(KJV) Or, Who shall descend into the deep?
(that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

"God is AMAZING!!!  The way He can make events happen so that eyes can be opened and hearts can be changed and turned Back To Him!"
God aggressively pursues people now on earth, and those that wind up in hell.
"When Yeshua Shed His Own Life's Blood - He Gave Us the Exact Same Relationship that He had with His Father" 
Interesting.  The veil is torn.  Everybody is in Christ, and is now a son/daughter of God.  Some realize that, and some realize that and live like it's the case.

"why would god require constant praise from his creation? must be pretty selfish if so" 
I don't think God "requires constant praise from his creation."  Perhaps inanimate matter and animals are built such that they praise God constantly.  Humans, though, have a choice as to when they'll acknowledge God, and when they'll praise him.  God doesn't need humans, and wouldn't be lacking in himself in any way if humans were to have not existed, or if no humans praised him.  Humans acknowledging and praising God is good for those humans that do so.  Ignoring God is harmful for those humans that ignore God, and the ignoring at some point ends.

Luke 19
35. And they brought it [the colt] to Yeshua and cast their garments upon the colt, and they seated Yeshua upon it. 36. And when he came, they were spreading their garments on the road. 37. And when he drew near to the descent of the tuora [mountain] of Beth-Zayteh, the crowd of talmida [students] all began rejoicing and praising Allaha in a loud voice over all the miracles that they had seen. 38. And they were saying,
"Blessed is the malka [king] who comes in the name of Mar-YAH [Master YHWH].
Shlama [peace] in heaven,
and shubkha [glory] in the highest!"
39. But some of the Pharisees from among the crowds said to him, "Rabbi, rebuke your students!" 40. He said to them,
"I say to you that
if these should be silent,
the rocks would cry out."

Psalm 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+19&version=NIV
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
    no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.  ....

"According to Christianity, Eichmann, by accepting Jesus was granted a place in heaven.  The six million Jews, who did not accept Jesus, were not accorded such grace.  This is Christianity."
In the end, everybody will be in heaven.  Jesus paid for everybody, and after all is said and done, he'll get everybody.
Universal Restoration & the Fate of the Wicked
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/universal-restoration-verses/

IMO, unless otherwise noted.
In the end, _everyone_ will get to heaven, all because of Yeshua the Meshikha.

Romans 5 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/5.htm
6 But surely because of our weakness, at this time The Messiah has died for the sake of the wicked. 7 For a man will hardly die for the sake of the wicked, however a man perhaps may dare to die for the sake of the good. 8 *Here God demonstrates his love for us, because if when we were sinners, The Messiah died in our place,* 9 How much more therefore, would we all the more be justified now by his blood and be saved from wrath by him? 10 For if *when we were enemies, God was reconciled with us in the death of his Son,* how much more therefore, in his reconciliation, shall we live all the more by his life? 11 And not in this way only, but also we glory in God by Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 For just as *by the agency of one man, sin entered the universe,* and by means of sin, death, in this way death passed by this sin unto all the children of men, because all of them have sinned. 13 For until The Written Law, sin was in the universe, but it was not accounted as sin, because there was no written law. 14 But death reigned from Adam and until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's violation of the law, who was the image of him who was to come.

15 But the fall was unlike the gift in this way:  for *if because of the fall of one the many died, much more, therefore, the grace of God and the gift by The One Man Yeshua The Messiah shall superabound to the many.*  16 And the gift is not the same as the offense of the one, for the judgment was from the one to pronouncing guilty verdicts, but the gift was from many sins to righteousness.  17 For *if because of the offense of one, death reigned, all the more, those who receive an abundance of favor and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by the agency of The One, Yeshua The Messiah.*

18 In like manner therefore, because of the offense of the one there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men, in the same way, *because of the righteousness of The One there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men.*  19 For *just as because of the disobedience of one man the many became sinners, so also because of the obedience of The One the many become righteous.* 20 But *there was the introduction to The Written Law that sin would increase, and wherever sin increased, there grace superabounded.*  21 That as sin reigned by death, in this way grace shall reign by righteousness to eternal life by Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.

IMO, unless otherwise noted.  Lightly edited, from https://youtu.be/WL1Tr3cBDZ4
James P.  52 minutes ago
You are in a place of the fear of God. The fear of God is the Old Covenant.  That was the BEGINNING of wisdom. That was Adam and Eve hiding from God in the garden because they broke his command of "Thou shalt not."  When you tell a kid "Thou shalt not eat from the cookie jar," they will then be fixated on the cookie jar and will eventually eat it.  It's the same with God:  he gave Israel the Old Covenant of "Thou shalt nots" and death penalties, to create/put a stumbling block in front of Israel and a lesson for the world.  The strictest religion in the world and the most harsh punishments was the Old Covenant.  And in that strict religion with harsh punishments no one was made righteous.
Paul told us the Law of Moses was given to Israel to increase transgression.  It was a spiritual lesson that RELIGION (a word that means bondage) DOESNT WORK.
The Old Covenant is the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom, while the New Covenant is perfect love that casts out fear.

Amen! :thumbsup: 3 very good posts..

..The OT, also, I can't help thinking, is tough, because truth is tough.. is the iron rod that must rule.. No one can break truth, but only break self upon truth. Amen, no one can fulfill the high standard of truth but God! And Jesus the exact representation of His person.. whom God was pleased that His Spirit should dwell fully in, the one in whom He is well pleased.. the mystery of ages, Christ in you, our hope of glory.. The lamb without blemish.. that He should always have preeminence.. jesus the Firstborn, the mold, the prototype.. and we the vessels.. the rest of us.. humbled.. He is writing His law/truth/love/perfection on our hearts.

The UR verses from Romans (!) I think of Romans as the 'legal' epistle. And I'm starting to think, of Paul's letters it has the most UR verses(?) [Ananias told Paul he had been chosen to know the will of God (and to have seen Jesus). Acts 22?]

Quote from: marie glen on March 19, 2019, 07:51:18 PM
Amen! :thumbsup: 3 very good posts..

..The OT, also, I can't help thinking, is tough, because truth is tough.. is the iron rod that must rule.. No one can break truth, but only break self upon truth. Amen, no one can fulfill the high standard of truth but God! And Jesus the exact representation of His person.. whom God was pleased that His Spirit should dwell fully in, the one in whom He is well pleased.. the mystery of ages, Christ in you, our hope of glory.. The lamb without blemish.. that He should always have preeminence.. jesus the Firstborn, the mold, the prototype.. and we the vessels.. the rest of us.. humbled.. He is writing His law/truth/love/perfection on our hearts.

The UR verses from Romans (!) I think of Romans as the 'legal' epistle. And I'm starting to think, of Paul's letters it has the most UR verses(?) [Ananias told Paul he had been chosen to know the will of God (and to have seen Jesus). Acts 22?]

   David    and    Marie    :thumbsup:   blessing    and peace  in Jesus .

  You reminded me  of somthing    I consider  valuable .
  Its the written Word   and when the carnal mind [ focus is   on earthly things =death] reads the Bible  it is an enemy against the Spirit  of Life   and cannot be helped  except by faith in God   to change , conform  , rebirth  from out of death comes new Life in Christ .

I recall how Jesus said when you hear His voice [ the Spoken Word comes by faith in hearing what the Spirit  is saying [Life  &love  and UR message ]  born again of   Holy Spirit   with   the [  holy seed/ Word of God ]

  and the Living Word  moving and having its being [presence ] in you ...  the Power of  the resurrected [regenerated ] Life of Jesus  Christ living in you  and a part of  His body that   was and is  and  can never die .  to me the  Body of Christ is the Living Word /Bible  that judges all things in righteousness.

I see Jesus natural body dying on the cross , it was a body prepared for Him  by the Father  for death  , but also see   Jesus Christ  as  conceived of the Holy Spirit  when He was born !  what a prototype   revealed  to us !


His Spirit never died but was sent into sheol [ grave heart[s ]of the earth ]   for 3 days and nights before returning to the Father in great POWER  and authority over making everything  new [resurrection   from the dead body of Adam   that all are under ]

For me He took  death captive  into Himself [Lord of all  , dead and the living ]  and was destroying the works of satan/
   slander  in judgment and condemnation   and   in conditional love   from now on by His cross [it is finished ]    out with the old and in with the new  Way of forgiveness  of sins     ,   the old law exposed sin nature   as utterly sinful , the new way exposed the   sinless life in Christ by forgiveness  and unconditional  love ......  Romans 14 . 


1 Peter 2:2-3 EXB
As newborn babies want milk, you should want the ·pure [sincere; unadulterated] and ·simple [or spiritual] ·teaching [ milk;  probably referring to the word of God; see   1 Peter 1:23–25]. By it you can ·mature [grow; reach maturity] in your salvation, because you have already ·examined and seen [ tasted] how good the Lord is [Ps. 34:8] Taste and see that the Lord is good;
    blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.[ tasting the tree of Life ] ! 


1 Peter 1:23–25 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25     but the word of the Lord endures forever."

And this is the word that was preached to you.  I see it as  a sure WORD , not probable  by faith in God   by His own  Spirit of Life !  :dsunny:



I think of Jesus  telling his disciples [ students /followers]   He had meat they knew nothing of and it was to do the Will and heartfelt  desire   of Gods    working   that NONE  should perish  but have eternal life though Him ...
  Every knee will bow and tongue  confess the Lord Jesus  Christ ... Romans 14

Being under His  authority  , the rods of iron  [strength ]  , He convicts and chastens   and comforts  those whom He loves   without respecter of persons . 
  Though suffering  everyone  is made humble  from the pride of life   1 John 2

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world— the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life— is not from the Father but from the world.

17The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever....
 
taste not, handle not , touch not the things of the world ! , it pierces us though   the heart with many sorrows .

Amen.. man's world, built by man, is built upon, and just about hides from so many, the glorious, beautiful world which God created (and is creating!) All in the pattern of life.. where all living looking to the light and the water for sustenance and being.. Flowers keeping their faces to the light whereby they live and grow..
   :dsunny:

Peter Tan, _The Spiritual World_ (2007), 144pp., 139 from the Appendix
http://johannministries.com/site/messages/book.html
It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it
removes the threat. No longer can the sinner be dangled over
the pit of hell. No longer can what Burn's called the
"hangmen's whip" of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked
over the sinner. But the kind of universalism in which I believe
has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be
all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have
it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. -William Barclay.

It is claimed that universalism does away with free will...what
is forgotten is that God has eternity to work in. It is not a
question of God, as it were, rushing a man into heaven. It is a
question of God using an eternity of persuasion and appeal
until the hardest heart breaks down and the most stubborn
sinner repents. -William Barclay.

I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of
God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when
God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24 28). For me,
this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of
the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has
defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further,
there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of
our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it
would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were
agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and
wiped out. But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father
- He is indeed Father more than anything else. No father
could be happy while there were members of his family for ever
in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the
disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father
can know is to have all of his family back home again.
-William Barclay.

Peter Tan, _The Spiritual World_ (2007),
144pp., 139 from the Appendix
http://johannministries.com/site/messages/book.html
It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it
removes the threat.  No longer can the sinner be dangled over
the pit of hell.  No longer can what Burn's called the
"hangmen's whip" of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked
over the sinner.  But the kind of universalism in which I believe
has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be
all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have
it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. -William Barclay.

It is claimed that universalism does away with free will...what
is forgotten is that God has eternity to work in.  It is not a
question of God, as it were, rushing a man into heaven.  It is a
question of God using an eternity of persuasion and appeal
until the hardest heart breaks down and the most stubborn
sinner repents. -William Barclay.

I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of
God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when
God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24 28).  For me,
this has certain consequences.  If one man remains outside of
the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has
defeated the love of God - and that is impossible.  Further,
there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of
our God.  If God was no more than a King or judge, then it
would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were
agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and
wiped out.  But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father--
He is indeed Father more than anything else.  No father
could be happy while there were members of his family for ever
in agony.  No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the
disobedient members of his family.  The only triumph a father
can know is to have all of his family back home again.
-William Barclay.

 :thumbsup: absolutely!

Visions of The Spiritual World by Sadhu Sundar Singh - 1926
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
The Correction of Error
When people earnestly desire to live lives pleasing to God, the readjustment of their views and the renewal of their lives begin in this world.  Not only does the Spirit of God teach them directly, but in the secret chamber of their hearts they are helped by communion with the saints, who, unseen by them, are ever at hand to assist them towards the good.  But, as many Christian believers, as well as non-Christian seekers after truth, die while still holding false and partial views of truth, their views are corrected in the world of spirits, provided that they are not obstinately welded to their opinions, and are willing to learn, because neither in this world, nor in the next, does God, or any servant of His, force a man to believe anything against his will.

The Manifestation of Christ
I saw in a vision the spirit of an idolater, on reaching the world of spirits, begin at once to search for his god.  Then the saints said to him, "There is no god here save the One True God, and Christ, Who is His manifestation."  At this the man was a good deal astonished, but being a sincere seeker after truth, he frankly admitted that he had been in error.  He eagerly sought to know the correct view of truth, and asked if he might see the Christ.  Shortly after this Christ manifested Himself in a dim light to him, and to others who had newly arrived in the world of spirits, because at this stage they could not have endured a full exhibition of His glory, for His glory is so surpassing that even the angels look on Him with difficulty, and cover their faces with their wings (Isaiah vi. 2).  When He does reveal Himself to any one He takes into account the particular stage of progress to which that soul has attained, so He appears dimly, or in the fuller light of His glory, that the sight of Him may be endured.  So, when these spirits saw Christ in this dim but attractive light, they were filled with a joy and peace which is beyond our power to describe.  Bathed in the rays of His life-giving light, and with the waves of His love, which constantly flow out from Him, flowing over them, all their error was washed away.  Then with all their hearts they acknowledged Him as the Truth, and found healing, and, bowing in lowly adoration before Him, thanked and praised Him.  And the saints who had been appointed for their instruction also rejoiced over them.

_William Barclay:  A Spiritual Autobiography_ (1977), 65-67.  Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many Biblical commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament, "Barclay New Testament," and "The Daily Study Bible Series."  Cited at
http://webhome.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html
I am a convinced universalist.  I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.  In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism.  I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing.  Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God.  Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell.  He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained.  He did not believe in eternal _punishment,_ but he did see the possibility of eternal _penalty._  And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification. 

Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism.  First, he believed in it because of the _character of God._  "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery."  Second, he believed in it because of _the nature of evil._  Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all."  Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence.  Third, he believed in it because of _the purpose of punishment._  The purpose of punishment is always remedial.  Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness."  Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way. 

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation. 

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief.  Jesus said:  "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw _all_ men to myself" (John 12:32).  Paul writes to the Romans:  "God has consigned _all_ men to disobedience that he may have mercy on _all"_ (Rom. 11:32).  He writes to the Corinthians:  "As in Adam _all_ die, so also in Christ shall _all_ be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).  In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires _all_ men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for _all"_ (1 Tim 2:4-6).  The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word _all._

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to _eternal punishment,_ and the righteous to eternal life.  The Greek word for punishment is _kolasis,_ which was not originally an ethical word at all.  It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.  I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature _kolasis_ is never used of anything but remedial punishment.  The word for eternal is _aionios._  It means more than everlasting, for Plato-- who may have invented the word-- plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be _aionios._  The simplest way to out it is that _aionios_ cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God.  Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. 

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God.  I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work.  I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world.  I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe. 

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28).  For me this has certain consequences.  If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God-- and that is impossible.  Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God.  If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out.  But God is not only King and Judge, God is _Father_-- he is indeed Father more than anything else.  No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony.  No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family.  The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home.  The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love.  The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

Quote from: DavidFord on May 08, 2019, 05:09:51 AM

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation. 

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief.  Jesus said:  "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw _all_ men to myself" (John 12:32).  Paul writes to the Romans:  "God has consigned _all_ men to disobedience that he may have mercy on _all"_ (Rom. 11:32).  He writes to the Corinthians:  "As in Adam _all_ die, so also in Christ shall _all_ be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).  In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires _all_ men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for _all"_ (1 Tim 2:4-6).  The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word _all._

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to _eternal punishment,_ and the righteous to eternal life.  The Greek word for punishment is _kolasis,_ which was not originally an ethical word at all.  It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.  I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature _kolasis_ is never used of anything but remedial punishment.  The word for eternal is _aionios._  It means more than everlasting, for Plato-- who may have invented the word-- plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be _aionios._  The simplest way to out it is that _aionios_ cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God.  Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. 

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God.  I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work.  I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world.  I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe. 

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28).  For me this has certain consequences.  If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God-- and that is impossible.  Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God.  If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out.  But God is not only King and Judge, God is _Father_-- he is indeed Father more than anything else.  No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony.  No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family.  The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home.  The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love.  The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

Amen! Are these last paragraphs your thoughts or William Barclay's? Either way they are some very good (and biblical!) thoughts.

As for myself I like to read God's word(s) for myself and pray and study, etc. And read it like a child.. Straight forward. There's tons of metaphor (of course) but I'm not one looking for it in every word of God, and view that as somewhat dangerous, adding to and taking away from what He is actually saying/ what is actually written. I believe He is creating a literal paradise for all, which He has no problem at all of doing quite well.

Quote from: marie glen on May 08, 2019, 11:20:06 PM
Are these last paragraphs your thoughts or William Barclay's?

Barclay's.

"most people will not be 'saved' from afterlife punishment" -- https://youtu.be/cgeUgd3A4gY
All people are sons/daughters of Father God, and God strongly loves all his children.  Many people will experience chastisement/discipline in the afterlife.  I dunno what the proportion of those that have to undergo afterlife chastisement is, compared with those that don't undergo it.

Revelation 3:19 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/3.htm
"I rebuke and discipline those whom I love. 
Be zealous therefore and return."
Proverbs 13:24 (Peshi tta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/PRV/prv13.htm
He who spares his rod
hates his son;
but he who loves his son
disciplines him diligently.
Proverbs 3 (Peshi tta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/PRV/prv3.htm
11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD,
neither be weary of his corrections.
12 For whom the LORD loves he corrects,
even as a father corrects his son.

"The doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is that God's punishments have the two-fold righteous purpose of both justice and correction, resulting in ultimate reconciliation with Christ who has saved them from the jaws of death."
Sounds good.

"(Rom 5:18, 1 Cor 15:22)"
Romans 5:18 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English),
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/5.htm
In like manner therefore,
because of the offense of the one
there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men,
in the same way,
because of the righteousness of The One
there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men.

1 Corinthians 15 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_corinthians/15.htm
20 But now The Messiah is risen from among the dead
and is the first fruits of those who sleep. 
21 Just as by a man death came,
in this way also
by a man the dead come to life. 
22 For just as by Adam all people die,
in this way also by The Messiah they all live;
23 Each person in his order;
The Messiah was the first fruits;
after this, those who are The Messiah's at his arrival. 
24 And then the end will come,
when he will deliver The Kingdom to God The Father,
when he will destroy every Ruler and every Authority and all Powers.
25 For he is going to reign until all his enemies will be set under his feet, 
26 And the last enemy death shall be destroyed. 
27 For he brought all things to submission under his feet. 
But when it says, "All things are subjected to him",
it is understood that it excludes him who subjected all things to him. 
28 And when all is subjected to him,
then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him,
that God might be all in all.

'What is the Will of God?'   Several things, including:

1 Thessalonians 5:18 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-18.htm
Give thanks in everything,
for this is the will of God in Yeshua The Messiah among you.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-3.htm
For this is the will of God:
your holiness,
and that you be separate from all fornication,

1 Peter 3:17 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-17.htm
For it is an advantage to you that
when you are doing good works,
you suffer evil,
if it is thus the will of God,
but not while you are doing evil.

Hosea 6:6 (Pecrapta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/HOS/hos6.htm
For I desired mercy
and not sacrifice;
and the knowledge of God
more than burnt offerings.

1 Timothy 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_timothy/2.htm
1 Therefore, I beg of you that before all things,
you will offer supplications to God,
prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving,
for the sake of all people,
2 For the sake of Kings and Rulers,
that we may lead a quiet and tranquil way of life
in complete reverence to God and purity.
3 For this is pleasing and acceptable before *God Our Lifegiver,*
4 *He who wills that all people shall have Life,*
*and shall be converted to the knowledge of the truth.*
5 For God is One,
and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One:
The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah,
6 Who gave himself a ransom in the place of every person,
a testimony that has come in its time,
7 That of which I am appointed a Preacher and an Apostle of the truth.
I say and I do not lie, that
I am the Teacher of the Gentiles in the belief of the truth.
8 I desire, therefore, that men would pray in every place,
lifting their hands in purity without rage and without scheming;

2 Peter 3:9 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/3.htm
THE LORD JEHOVAH does not delay his promises as people consider delay,
but he is patient for your sakes,
and because he is not willing that any person would perish,
but that every person would come to conversion.

Eph 1:11 is ambiguous:  should it be
"we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us and willed to do,
all according to the counsel of his will," or
"we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us
and willed to do all according to the counsel of his will"?

Ephesians 1 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/ephesians/1.htm
3 Blessed is The God and The Father of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah,
he who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings in Heaven in The Messiah.
4 Just as he chose us beforehand in him from before the foundation of the universe,
that we shall be holy and without spot before him,
and he ordained us beforehand in love for himself.
5 And *he has constituted us as children by Yeshua The Messiah,*
*as that is pleasing to his will,*
6 That the glory of his grace may be praised,
that which overflows upon us by his Beloved One.
7 For *in him we have redemption,*
*and the forgiveness of sins by his blood,*
according to the riches of his grace,
8 That which has superabounded in us in all wisdom and in all intelligence.
9 And *he has taught us the mystery of his will,*
*that which he had before ordained to perform in himself,*
10 *For the administration of the end of time,*
*that all things which are in Heaven and in Earth would be made new again by The Messiah.*
11 And *we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us and willed to do all according to the counsel of his will,*
12 *That we would be those who first hoped in The Messiah,*
to the honor of his glory.
13 For you also heard by him the word of truth,
which is The Good News of your salvation,
and you believed in him,
and you were sealed in The Spirit of Holiness who was promised,
14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance for the redemption of those who are living and for the glory of his honor.

"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. If you want to pretend he was not serious, good luck just don't take other souls with you"
Would making this case to people constitute 'taking souls to hell'?:
'According to certain Christians and Muslims, the vast majority of people will be tortured for an infinite length of time in hell.  Their God supposedly is loving and merciful and all-powerful, but according to those misinformed people, their God is actually more cruel than the most evil human torturer that ever lived.  Human torturers tortured for a finite length of time, but those Muslims' and Christians' God tortures people for an infinite length of time.  Is that a God worthy of:  serving?  worshipping?  Is that a God of love and mercy?  Is that a God we should love?  No, no, no, and no.  I'm an atheist re: that God-- that God doesn't exist.'

Quote from: DavidFord on May 12, 2019, 03:54:50 PM
"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. If you want to pretend he was not serious, good luck just don't take other souls with you"
Would making this case to people constitute 'taking souls to hell'?:
'According to certain Christians and Muslims, the vast majority of people will be tortured for an infinite length of time in hell.  Their God supposedly is loving and merciful and all-powerful, but according to those misinformed people, their God is actually more cruel than the most evil human torturer that ever lived.  Human torturers tortured for a finite length of time, but those Muslims' and Christians' God tortures people for an infinite length of time.  Is that a God worthy of:  serving?  worshipping?  Is that a God of love and mercy?  Is that a God we should love?  No, no, no, and no.  I'm an atheist re: that God-- that God doesn't exist.'

  I can sure see that IMAGE OF GOD   as the one whom the beast /carnal mind has erected  in their hearts  by the mixing of Babylons confusion   
  the mixing of good and evil and the mixing of hate and love and the mixing of  light and darkness and the mixing of death and life    creating a chaos    of scattering to be done  when the   ROCK   not made of human effort   strikes this   image

it will cause a great  earthquake   and shaking of the heavens and earth when that man of sin is revealed  and humbled  and made low by the breath of the Lords coming  to him 

GOD is no mocked and even  when it is done in ignorance   , GODS MERCY   WILL triumph  over judgement /correction   .

   Gods wrath is for a moment but His mercy endures  forever   Psalms 30 ;5

Young's Literal Translation
For -- a moment is in His anger, Life is in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.

Quote from: rosered on May 12, 2019, 05:07:28 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on May 12, 2019, 03:54:50 PM
"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. If you want to pretend he was not serious, good luck just don't take other souls with you"
Would making this case to people constitute 'taking souls to hell'?:
'According to certain Christians and Muslims, the vast majority of people will be tortured for an infinite length of time in hell.  Their God supposedly is loving and merciful and all-powerful, but according to those misinformed people, their God is actually more cruel than the most evil human torturer that ever lived.  Human torturers tortured for a finite length of time, but those Muslims' and Christians' God tortures people for an infinite length of time.  Is that a God worthy of:  serving?  worshipping?  Is that a God of love and mercy?  Is that a God we should love?  No, no, no, and no.  I'm an atheist re: that God-- that God doesn't exist.'

  I can sure see that IMAGE OF GOD   as the one whom the beast /carnal mind has erected  in their hearts  by the mixing of Babylons confusion   
  the mixing of good and evil and the mixing of hate and love and the mixing of  light and darkness and the mixing of death and life    creating a chaos    of scattering to be done  when the   ROCK   not made of human effort   strikes this   image

it will cause a great  earthquake   and shaking of the heavens and earth when that man of sin is revealed  and humbled  and made low by the breath of the Lords coming  to him 

GOD is no mocked and even  when it is done in ignorance   , GODS MERCY   WILL triumph  over judgement /correction   .

   Gods wrath is for a moment but His mercy endures  forever   Psalms 30 ;5

Young's Literal Translation
For -- a moment is in His anger, Life is in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.

Packed posts! I truly think the biggest, or one of the biggest reasons a-theism has flourished these last decades - for a while now.. And is growing, is because of that highly insulting fairy tale about hell. A pagan fairy tale which even crept into Israel ..some things in the Talmud, I've heard, for example. And their becoming attached to some words..

If you've ever read or joined in on atheist vs God of the Bible debates, it seems that soon enough we find that is the biggest thing mentioned - hell, and the so-called cruelty of God.. How could He punish and take out of His garden the poor misunderstood folks who only burned and buried live children and babies to their gods.. banging drums (tophets) to drown out the screams.

When how incredibly merciful it is to remove those weeds/tares from the garden of the future.. And then resurrect them along with the rest of humanity, rather than let them perish - "that none should perish but ALL be saved" .."the soul that sinneth shall die" - instead God has put Himself through all this - being life itself and every where present, He lives through all of this. He witnesses all.

And Christ opened the pit, the grave and has brought everyone forth, death (and its place) the final thing done away with in that lake of fire.. to be attested to at the fullness of time.

But what a contrast! The perfect love of God, as contrasted to ET's presentation, implication, accusation? of Him. The myth, to me, is blasphemous in a very high degree. Though He loves and has mercy and pity upon His children who actually believe it of course.

But why would someone believe in such a 'God'?! I have to think an atheist will find additional mercy (if that's possible :laughing7: ). Just today I read the account how Jesus, when asked by John "who is it" who would betray Him, He said the one I sop this bite of bread and give it to.. and He gave it to Judas and Judas went out immediately.. and to the leaders to betray Him.

It's SO important the bread we eat.. chew on and digest. He is the unleavened bread of life - "Thy word is Truth" Jesus said (Jn.17:17). That's why false prophets/teachers will receive a greater damnation (greek, judgment, and it does not say 'forever'). As of course atheism is actually taught to children and young adults. :Chinscratch: So as atheists being likely taught theirselves.. and likely included in their psyche the hell myth.. maybe greater damnation won't apply.. as opposed to one who purposely misleads for gain or power (seats).

I can't imagine a purgatory either.. How coincidental that some who used inquisition, believed God would do likewise! "Let's torture this guy, or gal, for a while, until they submit" :faint: (oh brother!)

How infinitely wiser to let one experience and actually live through the results of their own doings, both individually and also collectively (imo). When the word says "destroyed" well, a rich person trusting is his/her wealth loses all, they are said to be ruined. If we will read His Word(s) and keep reading it, and digging as for pearls concerning it/truth, all these things become understood by ALL. A couple verses a day, then on youtube searching for truth :laughing7: just won't get it.. But hey.. they believe (subconsciously) that He's a monster.. so! Not surprising is it!? Their "IMAGE OF GOD" is one to run away from! Not run to, as His true image inspires..

But what joy to see the contrast. Now if about 3/4's of the people who have ever lived - of all sort of beliefs and cultures, etc. and histories.. rise in the "resurrection of the judgment" (discernment? "decision") it seems to me, sure, much will need to be worked out, but not via torture! Except torturous inner conflict or remorse.. the baptism of fire? The wrath of God, the purifying, consuming fire which cannot be quenched? Because it is the very life force itself? It ever burns, and forever burns bright! :dsunny: ...especially after all dross and chaff has been burned/consumed/purified away..

"Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven" - actually He spoke of Gehenna alias Tophet/Hinnom/Jezreel/Jehoshaphat/Armageddon.. -

"I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. I will enter into judgment against them there concerning my people Israel who are my inheritance, whom they scattered among the nations” Joel 3:2 .."valley of decision" Joel 3:14 "I will make Israel (Jerusalem?) a stone of offense to all nations.."

"They have built places here for worship of the god Baal so that they could sacrifice their children as burnt offerings to him in the fire. Such sacrifices are something I never commanded them to make! They are something I never told them to do! Indeed, such a thing never entered my mind! So I, the LORD, say: ‘The time will soon come that people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Hinnom Valley. But they will call this valley the Valley of Slaughter!’” Jer.9:5-6

harsh? "..but joy cometh in the morning.. "at morn, singing.."

PREVIOUSLY.. aNd future! (the metaphor/simile)
"The LORD your God is bringing you to a good land, a land of brooks, springs, and fountains flowing forth in valleys and hills.” Deut.7:8

:Peace2: :dsunny:

  Amen Marie in the sense that all   will come  to HIM  !!!

Luke 8    the whole chapter shows us   his healing  touch ...

Amen! ..."do not be afraid, only believe"!  :girlheart:

Quote from: marie glen on May 12, 2019, 09:17:44 PM
Amen! ..."do not be afraid, only believe"!  :girlheart:

AMEN SISTA MARIE  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:   :girlheart:

"eternal death involves never to exist ever again in God's presence" 
God is omnipresent.  Is it possible to escape being in God's presence? 
Psalm 139:8 (YLT) If I ascend the heavens -- there Thou [art],
And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!

Do you think that from God and through God and for God are all things?
Romans 11 (NIV)
https://www.biblehub.com/niv/romans/11.htm
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 *"Who has ever given to God,*
*that God should repay them?"*
36 *For from him and through him and for him are all things.*
To him be the glory forever!  Amen.

Do you think that all created things belong to the Creator?
Romans 11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/11.htm
33 Oh, the depth of the wealth, the wisdom and the knowledge of God,
for man has not searched his judgment
and his ways are not traced!
34 For who has known the mind of THE LORD JEHOVAH,
or who has been a counselor to him?
35 And who has first given to him
and then has received from him?
36 *Because all is from him, and all is by him, and all is in his hand,*
that to him would be praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities.  Amen.

"1) Why did GOD create us ??"  I dunno.  God is creative, and creators create.  In the case of God, God created something as marvelous as humans.  God is loving and forgiving, and creating fallible humans allowed God to express great love toward us, and allowed God to forgive us, and thereby demonstrate his attributes of being loving and merciful.

"2) Why did he give us a higher position than Angels"  I dunno.  Adam sinned, so humans' higher position over angels was short-lived.  Because Jesus died and rose again, he undid what Adam did, and humans are once again in a higher position than angels.
"is it not unfair with Angels and Satan who rebelled against God cuz of this ??"  The devil and his minions rebelled against God before Adam rebelled against God.

"3) Why he chose Jesus...Why Jesus was given all Help and Guiding from the God..why he was created to be special and To be called Son of God, Why was he Made to Rule us"
Jesus is God, and our Creator-- God-- gets to rule us his creation.  Jesus is God in an earth-suit.  Jesus came to show us what God is like.  Every human is special in God's view, every human is a son or daughter of God.  Every human gets help and guidance from God, including a personal assistant angel.  God's guidance is often subtle-- God's suggestions to us usually aren't overpowering, so we can easily reject his suggestions if we so choose.

"....is it not unfair to us..are we  nothing for GOD...?? Why he made 1 man to rule us all ?? Why he gave guidance and special attention to him Even tho he was just a Normal man.."
The prophet Jesus is God, and is far from normal.  Even the Quran recognizes this:  Quran ~3:30-3:50, ~19:18-19:35

"4) Why Romans killed Jesus easily and why their empire flourished after that ???"
God allowed the devil's desire to murder Jesus to be fullfilled, because God knew that God would get much good for all humans out of that terrible, evil event.
The Roman empire eventually ended.  Jesus' kingdom is still around, is growing, and is unstoppable.

"5) Why does GOD not help those who do not pray or beg to him..isn't GOD behaving like a Dictator..."
God is helping *everybody* all the time.  We'd all cease to exist if God stopped for a moment keeping us in existence.

"6) Why are we treated like insects and Nothing in the End time...why God let all this happen to us and why He want to test us...He could have just made us perfect...Does he want entertainment by Seeing us suffer for heaven...??"
If we were perfect, we wouldn't sin, and God couldn't demonstrate his great mercy and love and forgiveness.
Before all is said and done, *all* humans will be restored to having a good relationship with our very loving God.  Even Sodom will be restored-- see Ezekiel 16.

_The Message of Sadhu Sundar Singh:  A Study in Mysticism on Practical Religion_ by B.H. Streeter and A.J. Appasamy (1922), 209pp., 95-96, 99-102 https://archive.org/stream/themessageofsadh00streuoft/themessageofsadh00streuoft_djvu.txt
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1293189901/
https://www.amazon.com/Message-Sadhu-Sundar-Singh-Mysticism-ebook/dp/B013RN32LU/
"There [in heaven] we realize not only the desires we have known in this life, but desires, which we did not even know that we had, are opened up and realized, because there is everything to satisfy them.  There I am satisfied, there there is nothing more to ask.  It is wonderful!  That is our home. 

"I asked one of the Spirits the meaning of the passage in St. John:  'I said, Ye are gods.'  I was told that man has innumerable desires, and that these show that he is going to make infinite progress when in Heaven.  There we have more capacities than we have hairs of our head here. 

"Another time I asked what Christ meant by saying, 'Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.'  He did not say 'Be perfect as the angels or the prophets.'  I had been puzzled by this.  Does it mean that we shall become God; and, if so, shall we rebel against Him?  They told me there that God wants us to be equal to Him, because Love always wants an object for affection equal to itself.  Just as men are not satisfied with loving animals merely, so God wants us to be equal to Him.  But if we became so, we could not rebel:  for we should then have an infinite knowledge of the Love of God, and that would bring with it infinite thankfulness.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  Our Heavenly Father wants us to be made equal to Him.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  There are differences of degree, but there are no disagreements.  Everyone is always on everyone else's side, and those who are low down in the scale feel so proud that their elder brothers are so big. 
.... 
THE LAST JUDGMENT
"I inquired once, 'Will the dead stand in a line all together and be judged?'  I was told, No; after leaving the body the soul knows everything that has happened to it.  The memory of it all is clear and fresh, and thereby they are judged.  The heavenly light shows the wicked to themselves; they see at once that they cannot live in that fellowship of saints and angels.  They feel so out of place there, they find everything so uncongenial that they ask to be allowed to go away from Heaven.  Men are not turned out of Heaven by God.  Heaven is not a place with walls and gates where you have to ask for a ticket of admission.  The ticket of admission is the life a man has led.

"Those who are born again can see the Kingdom of Heaven and feel at home there, those who are not cannot do so.  This is the real judgment, and it is a judgment that is going on every day.  It is not effected by an act of God interposing between ourselves and Him, it is internal.  The Last Judgment will be a proclamation of the final result, when every true servant of God will be exalted before the whole creation.

"I was also told that in this world our spiritual bodies are inside our material bodies, and that when we sin it is like when we press with a point on paper behind which is a sheet of carbon; on the outside of the paper there is a very slight mark, but inside there is a clear black mark.  Thus our sins mark and scar our spiritual bodies, and the result of this will be seen when, after death, the spiritual body escapes from the material; and the revelation of the injury it has sustained will in itself be a large part of the judgment. 

HELL
"I was also told that the love of God operates even in Hell.  God does not shine in His full light, because those there could not bear it, but He gradually shows them more and more light, and by and by brings them on and moves their conscience towards something better, although they think that the desire is entirely their own. 

Thus God works on their minds from within, something in the same way, though in the opposite direction, as that in which Satan suggests temptation to us here.  Thus, what with God's work within and the Light without, almost all those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Christ's feet.  It will perhaps take millions of ages, but when it is attained they will be full of joy and thankfulness towards God; though they will still be less happy than those who have accepted Christ on earth.  Thus Hell also is a training school, a place of preparation for Home.  Those in Hell know that it is not their home because they suffer there.  Men were not created for Hell and therefore do not enjoy it, and, when there, desire to escape to Heaven.  They do so, but they find Heaven even more uncongenial than Hell, so they return.  But this convinces them that there is something wrong in their lives, and thus they are gradually led to repentance.  At least, that is the case with the majority, but there are some few personalities, Satan for instance, in regard to whom I was told, 'Don't ask about them.'  And so I didn't like to ask, but I hoped that for them also there was some hope. 

"They also told me that the Saints help in the work of saving souls in Hell, because there can be no idleness in Heaven.  Those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Heaven like the prodigal son, but with regard to the ultimate fate of a certain number you must not ask."  The Sadhu is inclined to think that perhaps these few will be annihilated. 

"Once I said, 'So many people will be lost because they have not heard of Christ.'  They said, 'The contrary will be the case; very few will be lost.'  There is a kind of heavenly joke, no, joke is not a good word for it.  'Very few will be lost but many will be saved.  It is so, but don't tell,' they said, as it were, in jest, 'because it will make men careless, and we want them to enjoy the First Heaven-- that is the Heaven on earth-- as well.' " 

"If there were no hope for all the non-Christians in the world and all the Christians who die in sin, God would stop creating men.  We must do our part here on earth to save sinners, but if they refuse we need not be without hope for them. 

The Sadhu's "universalism" recalls the famous "Shewing" to Mother Juliana of Norwich, "All manner of things shall be well," and her comments thereon except that her respect for the authority of the Church precludes her making any suggestion _how_ this may be possible.  The Sadhu faithfully obeys the injunction, "Don't tell." In his popular teachings, as we shall see in the next chapter, he stresses the need of repentance, and the certainty of immediate judgment in the next life, but he never speaks of his hope of _ultimate_ salvation even for the unrepentant.

Will Jesus-- God in the flesh-- succeed, or fail, in his goal of entering every human heart?

Frank C. Laubach, _Christ Liveth in Me and Game with Minutes_ (1961), 64pp., 27, 41
When Jesus of Nazareth began to make the world over into the Kingdom of God, He started something so vast that the one human body of Jesus was not enough.  His one body could walk only in Palestine. At Pentecost the Spirit of Christ entered 120 persons, and then Christ had 120 bodies.  But 120 were not enough.  Outside Damascus, Christ entered Saul of Tarsus.  Then He entered hundreds, then thousands.  Even that many were not enough for the vast world task before Him.  Christ has been reincarnated in a billion bodies.  But that was not enough!  He is _not_ finished until His love captures _every_ heart and fills _every_ body.  The whole human race must become His body, and the sons of man together become the dwelling place of the Son of man.  This is what Paul saw when he told the Church in Ephesus:  "The _church_ is Christ's body and we its members are parts of the whole body of Christ."

Since there are millions born every day, His task will go on and on and on as long as women give birth.  He must save the world all over again, each generation.  He must stand and knock at the door of every person in the human race and wait for His chance to enter and beget a new son of God.  If this makes you literally dizzy, it does me too.  For it is _we_ who stand at the door of other hearts and knock with Him.  _Every_ soul seeking to win another to Christ is really Christ Himself reaching out from within one body and pleading to enter another.  His method of saving the world is "Each One Teach One and Reach One for Jesus."
....
Dear friends who understand what I mean, we must have endless patience with those who cannot see this.  We must wait in patience.  The direction in which they go may end in some shipwreck-- they then will reach for a hand to rescue them, and He will be there waiting.  Every disaster can be God's doorway to heaven.

Matthew Bryan, _Forgotten Gospel: The Original Message of a Conquering King_ (2014), 138pp., 126-7
https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Gospel-Original-Message-Conquering/dp/0996055932/
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then scripture fails to record a single example of a gospel sermon to non-believers.
If the gospel is "Jesus is the _Christos_ [Meshikha/ Anointed One/ Anointed Priest-Prophet-King]," then the book of Acts records many examples of gospel sermons.
....
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then salvation is the avoidance of God's wrath.
If the gospel is "Jesus is King," then salvation is _liberation_ from the kingdom of darkness.
....
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then meditating on the gospel as a believer encourages me to consider myself a sinner.
If the gospel is "Jesus is King," then meditating on the gospel as a believer encourages me to consider myself a citizen of [the kingdom of] King Jesus.
....
If the gospel is "Jesus died for your sins," then the book of Revelation primarily reflects the final judgment of sin.
If the gospel is "Jesus is King," then the book of Revelation primarily reflects His final reclamation of the kingdom of the world from the authority of darkness.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures . . . 1 Corinthians 15:3-4

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit . . . 1 Peter 3:18

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners . . . Romans 5:19 (NASB)
. . . so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28

Maybe this dream is based on somebody's actual dream, and maybe not.  Either way, it's intriguing.

Michael Wood, _The Jerome Conspiracy_ (2010), 191pp., 153-4
https://www.amazon.com/Jerome-Conspiracy-Michael-Wood/dp/193656503X/
Samantha joined Jonathon in bed to read the book of Colossians, a book of the Bible written by Paul.  She particularly enjoyed the passage in chapter one, where Paul prophesied that everyone God created will be reconciled back to him.  After finishing the book, she reached over and turned out the light.
Samantha fell asleep with Paul's promise of universal reconciliation on her mind.  And it wasn't long before she started dreaming.  While her dreams typically faded in and out, this night she had an unusually lucid dream.  It felt so real.

Samantha dreamed that she and Jonathon were enjoying life in paradise, in the Kingdom of God. And every evening, there was an incredible banquet, with Jesus sitting at the head of an immense table.  The table stretches for miles, allowing it to accommodate every inhabitant of the Kingdom.
Samantha noticed that every evening the guests were assigned one seat closer to the head of the table, so that everyone eventually got to sit next to Jesus.  The guests' names were engraved on golden placards placed around the table, indicating who sat where.

One evening, however, when she and Jonathon entered the banquet hall, the angels took them to seats much farther away from the head of the table than they had been the night before.
After taking her seat, Samantha turned to one of the angels and asked, "Why have we been moved so far down the table?  Have we done something wrong?"
The angel laughed and cheerfully replied, "We just thought you might want to sit here at this part of the table tonight."

Just then, the nightly announcement resounded throughout the banquet hall:  "New arrivals!"  All the inhabitants cheered every night when that announcement was made.
Samantha turned to her right and noticed the empty chair next to her.  Curious, she reached for the golden placard to see the name of the person who was going to sit beside her.  As she gazed at the name, her hands started trembling, and tears of joy danced on her face.
"Jonathon!  Jonathon!" she shouted, showing him the placard.  "Look!"
Jonathon laughed and hugged her.  Tears flowed from his eyes as he continued to stare at the name engraved on the golden placard-- for the name on the placard was the name of his son ... Jamie Webber.

The emotional impact of the dream woke Samantha up.  She was sobbing tears of joy as the weight of Jamie's death lifted from her shoulders.  She gazed upward, wiped the tears from her eyes, and then whispered warmly into the night, "I'll see you in heaven, my love."

_Ascension Manual: Mystic Mentoring (in Christ)_ (2016), 294pp. by Robin Main.  On 53-55
https://www.amazon.com/Ascension-Manual-Mystic-Mentoring-Christ/dp/0578188511
....God is even releasing captives in hell who have already died, just as Yeshua did. How do I know this? I've done it, begrudgingly at first.  ....as I was... spending my usual quiet time with Him in the morning.... Yeshua asked me if I'd like to go to hell and set some captives free. My first answer was: "I'd rather not." Then I added: "But I will if you want me to." 

With a smile, my Love affirmed that's what he desired; and then, grabbed my hand in the Spirit and off we went. We descended into the earth to a place that I knew immediately was a sexual swamp. It looked like lava, but it wasn't. I saw beings leap out covered in red ooze with their mouths open and shrieking. It was an awful sound and sight. We landed on the bank of this red sexual swamp where a person was holding onto the side for all they were worth. .... Yeshua.... told me to preach the gospel to this lady. I knew it was a lady due to her Farrah Fawcett like hairdo. The rest of her was becoming like the red ooze, but her hair was somehow intact.

....Romans 10:9-10 came to mind. I preached to this precious imprisoned soul: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that Father God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Would you like to accept Yeshua as your Lord and Saviour today? I watched her make the biggest effort to say "yes" that I have ever seen. As soon as the very fiber of this woman's being forced out a yyyyyyyeeeeesss, Yeshua grabbed her out of the sexual swamp, and put her up on his back. Then he grabbed my hand and we all shot up to heaven. When we got there, to my amazement the woman that got off Yeshua's back already transformed and clothed in white was Farrah Fawcett herself. I think I had my mouth open, but I was remembering: "Oh yeah, Farrah Fawcett died two days ago."  Two beautiful attendant angels came and got her; but before she was escorted off, Farrah turned to Yeshua and asked him: "Could you send her (me) to Red and Ray (her son and husband)?" Yeshua replied kindly: "Not her, but I will send others."

I have since descended into hell to preach to imprisoned souls several times, but my one request has been that Yeshua always goes with me. ....if you are to descend "in Christ" to preach to the imprisoned souls in Sheol, you never stay in that descended state. Always ascend on high, like our Pattern Son did.  .... Also, know that I have seen people who have died refuse the gospel....

_Camps Farthest Out: The Journey: Past, Present, and Future: Celebrating 75 Years of Living Prayer_ (2005) including: "The Thought Farthest Out" (1930) by Glenn Clark and "The Saga of Glenn Clark and the Camps Farthest Out" (1980) by Glenn Harding, 253pp.  On 223-4:

Another talk was entitled "Symphony" or "Harmony" based on Matthew 18. In this, Roland told of the Christian who spoke to a sinner about serious sin in their life. If they do not listen, take two or three witnesses. If they will not listen, then tell the church. If they do not listen then, **treat them as a taxgatherer or publican!!** Now most of us would say, "That lets me off the hook. They deserve what they get. I am finished with them." But Roland said, "This is where we really start to pray for this person with great faith relinquishing them into Jesus' loving hands and thanking him in advance for what he has already achieved on the cross for their salvation."

I recall Roland telling us of a visit to a maximum security prison. He said when you went through the huge doors into a semicircular closed-in area between the other large iron doors there was a sense of claustrophobia.  In this area Roland was to meet and speak with a violent prisoner in for murder. At this juncture there were only the two of them present. The prisoner came for Roland with a piece of iron or wood, saying "I am going to kill you!!" Roland replied "No you're not, because I love you."  The prisoner replied as he approached menacingly, "I am going to kill you" to which Rolland replied, "No you're not, because I love you!" This was repeated several times, and then the prisoner dropped his weapon and knelt down sobbing, "No one has ever loved me," to which Roland replied, "Jesus does, enough to die for you, and I do too!"

This is a mind-blowing book.

_My Journey Beyond Beyond: An autobiographical record of deep calling to deep in pursuit of intimacy with God_ by Mike Parsons (2018), 244pp., 206-208
https://www.amazon.com/My-Journey-Beyond-Autobiographical-Intimacy/dp/1789630088/
Jesus... gave me a silver trumpet and pointed towards a door that I had not seen there before. I asked, "Where did that door come from?" Smiling, Jesus said, "It has always been there, but your mind would not allow you to see it."

The door opened and we walked into a place I could only describe as fire but as I discovered myself, when engaging the fires of the judgment seat or the altar, this was also a manifestation of God who is a consuming fire. Fire is an expression of God's love, not punishment, and what I observed was multitudes of people standing consumed by fire, in anguish or torment of soul facing the reality of their life's choices. There were no demons or devils with pitchforks-- those ideas are more aligned with Dante's _Inferno_ and Hieronymus Bosch's paintings than the reality of what I was seeing-- and God was certainly not punishing, torturing or tormenting anyone either.  ....

I looked at Jesus and he was saying nothing. So rather tongue-tied and feebly I began to preach the good news. When I finished, Jesus turned to walk out and I thought "I am not staying here on my own." Noticing the silver trumpet in my hand, I thought I had better blow it, so on my way to the door I did so. We walked what seemed like a long way through the fiery tunnel and back through the door, which now had the appearance of a fiery sword. We turned towards the door and I saw that some people had followed us through the fire and as they approached the door, they kneeled and I heard them confess Jesus as Lord and walk through the door, entering through the gate into Zion.

I turned to look at Jesus and said "What have you done to me now? I am ruined! What am I supposed to say to people?" Jesus smiled again and said "Tell them that you are doing what I did, and that I have told everyone to do what I did and greater." ....
I have been back to the fire many times now for each of my family lines with varying degrees of success-- but tens of thousands have responded, accepting and confessing Jesus as Lord and joining the ranks of the cloud of witnesses. .... Since beginning to share this publicly as others are now doing, I have had many emails and messages thanking me because others have had similar experiences, but have been apprehensive to share them for fear of being branded a heretic.

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245. What Jesus Did - 2 years ago
https://freedomarc.blog/2018/04/13/245-what-jesus-did/
Some years ago, I was a given a seal and staff and went through a door on Wisdom's heights. It was a tunnel of fire which opened into a place of extreme restriction and sadness: satan's trophy room. There I saw 3 things:
The sparkling diamond trophies of the destinies of those living and dead who had not believed the good news
Stolen mantles and crowns
An area of the heritage of my generational family lines

Now Jesus took me back there. He showed me the heritage area and I looked at the family line of my father's father.  Jesus said to me, "Do you want to see this restored?"  I asked "How?"

Into the fire
Then He showed me a door I had not seen when I came before. He explained that the door had been there all along, but my framework of beliefs would not allow me to see it. Then He gave me a silver heralding trumpet and we went through the door into the fire. There were thousands of people there from that part of my family line, not talking to one another; isolated individuals who appeared to be in anguish of soul. They were not being tormented; there was no devil there with a pitchfork or anything like that. They were there, on their own, in a place of consuming fire.

So I looked to Jesus, hoping He was going to do something. He just stood there looking right back at me. So eventually I preached the good news to them, though not very well! I felt rather tongue-tied and overwhelmed. Overwhelmed with love, actually, and of course completely unprepared. But at least I told them that they could accept Jesus and come out.

I figured Jesus must have given me the trumpet for a reason, so I blew it. He turned to walk out, and there was no way I was going to stay in there on my own, so I followed Him back through the tunnel of fire. I went through the door back to Wisdom's heights and this time I saw that the door was like a fiery sword (I knew that a fiery sword guards the way to the Tree of Life).

I looked back and a few hundred people had followed us to the door. As they approached I saw them kneel, I heard them confess Jesus as Lord and they walked out and through the gates into Zion.

Authority
I turned to Jesus. "What have you done to me? I'm in trouble now! How do I explain this?"
Jesus said "Just tell people that you are doing what I did-- and I told you to do what I did, and greater things. This is just the beginning."

I asked Jesus why so few of them had followed us out of the fire. If it was me and someone offered me a way out, I would have been out of there as fast as I could. This is what He told me:
"You can only preach with authority to the degree that the fire has consumed generational things in you. That is why not everyone responded. Keep presenting yourself to the fire of the altar and you will be able to reach more of your generational lines. Embrace the coals to touch areas of your life that have come from your generations; that will give you authority."

So I present myself as a living sacrifice on the altar in the temple every day.

Back again-- and again
Since that first time, I have been back to engage each of my 4 generational family lines and preached the good news to them. When I was in China in 2017 someone gave me a silver heralding trumpet just like the one Jesus had given me. One morning while I was there I woke at 3am and felt a strong desire to engage the altar and ask for the fiery coals to touch a specific area of behaviour, the area of divorce.

As I did, I began to feel intensely loving towards everyone in my generations who had been divorced, not angry or resentful, and I began forgiving them and blessing them. Once I finished I went to the fiery place again. I preached to all my generational lines with boldness, blew the silver trumpet and this time many more responded. They followed me out, came to the door, confessed Jesus as Lord and went through.

Later, on a Sunday morning here at Freedom as I was embracing the fire another area surfaced. I again went back and preached with renewed boldness and once again many more responded. Another time, I wondered what it might be like if I took communion down into the fire. So I went back there and offered communion, the body and blood of Jesus, to those who were in the fire. Yet again, many responded!

More recently I became aware that there were many in that place with fractured souls, what we sometimes call 'stuck parts', mostly caused by trauma in their lives. They were double-minded, triple-minded or worse and were unable to make a decision to follow Jesus. So I asked Jesus to come with me and I told them they could come to the Prince of Peace (shalom means 'wholeness') and be made whole. Vast numbers of them did so.

My strong desire is to empty that place, but for that to happen I need to embrace the fire myself. I need to be good news and demonstrate that good news in my own life.

I have now had many experiences of going into the place of fire both for personal refining and on rescue missions. The fire of God is for purifying and refining and removing all the dross in people's lives. They are waiting for someone to come and share the good news with them.

Testimony
One day, before I even mentioned this publicly, a friend I meet with online said he had something to share with me. He had been engaging in heaven when some of his family members came up to him. He was surprised and said "I didn't know you were believers in Jesus!" And they said, "We weren't. But we remembered that you said your whole household would be saved, and Jesus came and preached the good news to us, and that's why we are here." This really did not fit my friend's theological box, as he put it. He was encouraged when I then shared my experiences too.

Since then (and especially after this topic cropped up in several of my regular online mentoring groups) I have had conversations with others and I have heard many testimonies of people who have gone into the fire and preached the good news as Jesus did. After I shared this in the Vision Destiny 2017 series I had a number of emails from people thanking me for opening up the discussion as they had been afraid of sharing their experiences because of the reaction they knew it would cause (a reaction I have experienced for myself).

////////////////////////////////////////
Nancy Coen Unlocking Ancient Portals, at ~1:21:18
https://youtu.be/gobikk2ZMkM?t=4878
Jesus.... preached the gospel and took captivity out, and we're seeing that day, walking around in the streets of Jerusalem, the souls of those who had been long dead.  Now I'm gonna tell you a real mystery. Now I better turn off the tape. God is going to give us the power to descend into hell and stand in the gap and lead captivity out, and that is the restoration of all things.

////////////////////////////////////////
rough, lightly-edited transcript of
Hell? Journey Testimony Part 1 - Supernatural Mentoring Monday 12th March 2018 Washington, Mike Parsons - Apr 17, 2018, 44:35+
https://youtu.be/VZGMc7k_FXU?t=2675
So Jesus went and preached there.
A lot, of course, of what he was talking about before the cross was before the resurrection, so after the cross and the resurrection, some things did change, e.g., there was no Sheol with two parts anymore because he led it all-- everything that was captive there-- he led them out.

So I'm in this place where I'm having all this stuff going on, I'm really struggling with this, I'm just so, 'you know, I could really do without this,' but I had no choice because God is unveiling his truth, he's revealing this stuff, I'm seeing the truth in the Word of God, and therefore I asked him, 'Okay, if this is the case, if everyone who dies without knowing Jesus goes into your consuming fire, what happens to them?'

I asked the question, and Jesus took me there and showed me. He took me into Satan's trophy room, and I'm looking at my area of heritage, my family lines, four family lines, looking at them, and Jesus is like, 'Do you want to engage with this?'  And I'm thinking, 'I don't know what you're talking about, but yeah, I would love to see my family line, I want to see my heritage back.' It was purely selfish, really, because I just wanted my heritage that I never had, and I thought I was gonna get it all. So he says, 'Well, let's go through the door,' and I said 'What door?'-- I'd never seen a door there before. He said, 'That door,' and I'm like, 'Why didn't I see that?' He said, 'Well, because you couldn't see it, because you were blinded by the fact that you didn't believe it existed.' So we go through the door.

He gives me a silver trumpet, and we engaged my father's father's generational life, and they were there in the fire and they are in anguish, and I'm standing there thinking, 'Jesus, what should I do?' He's not saying anything. So eventually I preached a feeble message-- it was terrible, really, but I didn't know what to do, I was so overawed by the experience. So I preached the message of the love of God, I preached Jesus, and I basically told them they didn't need to stay there-- they could accept Jesus and they could come out. And Jesus walked out and I followed him figuring, 'I'm not staying here alone,' so I followed him out, and I blew this trumpet-- I think, 'Well, he gave me it, I better do something with it,' I blew it, and followed him out.

We went back up through this fiery tunnel out through the fiery sword door onto wisdom's heights. Jesus stands, turns around, and a few hundred people followed us, and they got to the fiery sword door, and they kneeled and they confessed Jesus as Lord, and they walked out through the door and walked into Zion.

And I'm standing there with Jesus and I'm looking on, and I said, 'What have you done to me? How am I possibly gonna explain this?' And he said, 'Well, you just tell people that I did this, and I told you to do everything I did-- and greater things, so this is just the beginning, this is not the end.' So I'm like, 'Okay,' so if anyone says, 'Well, you can't do that,' I say, 'Well, Jesus said I can, and Jesus did it.' And so then I said, 'Well why didn't everyone come out? I would have thought that even at the most feeble presentation of the Gospel no one would have stayed there, surely they'd want to get out if they had an opportunity. So he said, 'Well, the authority you have to preach there is proportional to the amount of fire that has been applied to the generational lines in your life,' so I thought, 'Okay, if you want me to go back here, I'm gonna need some more of the fire of the altar, the coals-- you know where Isaiah said, 'I'm a man of unclean lips, amongst a people of unclean lips,' he wasn't just talking about present believers, he was talking about his generational lines with the same. So I have been back there numerous times. I've been back there with some specific things to preach.  When I was on the fire, several times I had some specific things to deal with, and I went back and preached the good news.

I realized, the more I went there-- you know the scripture where it says. 'A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways'-- I think it's in James-- and I realized that I'm preaching to fragmented souls, and some of them are double-minded, triple-minded, quadruple-minded:  they are fragmented in parts, and they can't all respond to the Good News because they're broken, and some of them don't like God because of the things that have happened to them in their lives, and they blame God.

So I went back there last year in December, this very specific encounter, and I thought, 'I need to preach wholeness and peace.  I'm gonna ask Jesus to come with me as the Prince of Peace-- I'm gonna ask him to give me the authority to be able to speak to every part of someone's soul.'  And I preached a really powerful message of healing and restoration from fragmentation and brokenness, and reintegration and wholeness in the Prince of Peace, and I gave them a call to come into the Prince of Peace.  And so many responded to that, and they came and they engaged and they were integrated and whole in their soul, and they accepted Jesus as Lord, and they came out of that place.

Now, I'm not the only one who's having these experiences and encounters-- lots of people are-- Nancy Coen, people like that-- they are having these type of encounters, other people-- I'm not going to mention the names because they may not have publicly said this, so I'm not going to put them on the spot, but I've been talking to them, and I know that they have the same experiences and they have the same beliefs, they're just not necessarily willing to come out because of the potential stuff that happens as a result.

////////////////////////////////////////
edited transcript of
Hell? Journey Testimony Part 1 - Supernatural Mentoring Monday 12th March 2018 Washington, Mike Parsons - Apr 17, 2018, 1:00:35+
https://youtu.be/VZGMc7k_FXU?t=3637
I was talking to a friend of mine online and he said to me, 'Can I talk to you?'
So I said, 'Well, yeah sure.'
He said, 'Well I had this experience. I was in heaven the other day, and some of my family came up to me.'
So I said, 'Oh, oh, right.'
He said, "And I said to them, 'I didn't know you were believers!' and they said 'Well we weren't.'"
So he said, 'Well, how did you get here then?'
They said, "Well, Jesus came to us and he preached a message to us, and he reminded us that you used to say, 'And all my household will be saved,' and we responded to his message, and now we're in a relationship with him."
So I said, 'Well yeah, I can totally validate your experience because I've had similar experiences myself.'

And a lot of people are afraid of coming out with their experiences because they're afraid of being shot down and accused of being heretics and being in big hot water with the religious traditional institutions, which unfortunately does happen. But once I came out of the closet if you like over this stuff, which I did in the Vision Destiny series 2017, which I wasn't really intending to do until I really taught it, people started to contact me to say, 'Thank you for sharing this,' because they were afraid a) that they'd lost the plot or b) they were just afraid because they couldn't talk to anyone about it to validate whatever they'd experienced, and they were so thankful that someone had come out and said, 'Look, this is the story, this is the journey,' and lots of people have been like that since.

Everything that happens, God "tolerates."  If God didn't 'tolerate' X, X wouldn't happen, and X wouldn't exist.  Whenever anybody suffers, Jesus suffers that person's suffering.  'Whatever you did to the least of these, you did to Me.'  Humans cause God to experience suffering whenever humans mistreat other humans.
I don't think God directly punishes.  However, God set up the material and spiritual worlds such that when love is acted against, there are negative repercussions.  The negative repercussions can accumulate and crash hard.
Re: the rich man in Hades account, that was an illustrative story.  Before Jesus preached in Sheol, people were in the Abraham's bosom portion, while others were in the toasty portion.  After being beheaded, John the Baptist preached in Sheol.  After being crucified, Jesus preached in Sheol, and I bet he cleared the place out.  Mike Parsons has preached in a hellish place, and as a result, numerous people he preached to confessed Jesus is Lord and entered heaven.
I don't care for what Mary Baxter has to say about hell.  I found credible Bryan Melvin's account of his tour of a hellish realm, and found credible the account of Philip Mantofa.

Hitler is currently roasting.  But he won't roast for an infinitely-long period of time. At some point, he will willingly and gladly and wholeheartedly bow the knee to Jesus and worship Jesus, and enter heaven. 
"he is a God hater" 
And yet God loves Hitler, and God's unconquerable love will overcome Hitler's hatred.
"the lake of Fire awaits him"
From God's side of things, God is already reconciled to Hitler because of what the God-man Jesus did on the cross.  The lake of fire for Hitler would be merely 1 stage during Hitler's being reconciled eventually to God. 
The devil duped numerous angels, despite angels being very hard to trick.  Mike Parsons has freed 3 dark angels from their deceptions, and now they're reconciled to God, and are on God's side and helping people.

"Jesus was a kinsman redeemer, legally only to save Adam's race"
Is Hitler part of 'Adam's race'?
"God does not love everybody"
Who are some people, what are some entities, that God doesn't love?
"The book of Revelation speaks of the judgements"
Judgements to what purpose?
"God says many times that He has enemies"
Yes, God has enemies.  But God and God's love is so powerful that even his enemies will become his friends (if they haven't already).
"we should hate what God hates"
Reference?
"He hates evil Doers"
Who are some people, what are some entities, Jesus-- who is God in the flesh-- hated, if any?

"Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, children of their father the devil. This is not Adam's race"
Do you think:
Jesus hated the Pharisees? 
the Pharisees weren't humans, but rather vipers?
Jesus has unforgiveness toward anyone?  (recall from the cross, 'Father, forgive them')

"God put enmity or war between the woman's seed and the serpent's seed; who or what are the seed of the serpent?"
Dark angels and demons.

"Didn't God say Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated"
That's 1 translation.  What are some alternate translations?
I know that in the NT, at one point, Jesus speaks about people needing to hate their family members.  However, the NT was originally in Aramaic not Greek, and the contextually-proper translation of the Aramaic is not 'hate,' but rather 'put aside.'

"who are we to question the potter?"
Who questioned the potter, and how?  Do you agree with this?:

Romans 11:29 (Berean Literal)
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

"the gifts of God got to do with this?"
Do you agree with me that God gave gifts to every human and to every fallen angel?

"we must hate what God hates.... a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers"
Did Jesus hate those who falsely accused him?  Did Jesus hate Judas?
"The Lord... hates the wicked and the one who loves violence"
Did Jesus hate those Romans who crucified him?

"child abusers are wicked to the core, evil personified"
Brad Jersak tells of a child abuser who repented, and Jesus forgave the child abuser.  Do you think that's a bogus account?

Do you agree with this?:
1 Cor 15:22 (Berean Literal) 
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-22.htm
For as indeed in Adam all die,
so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Does the Mike Parsons account not "line up with the Word," where 'Word' equals:
the Bible?  Jesus, who is Love incarnate?

"but was declared heresy by the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 543"
Reference?
"By refusing to call anything right or wrong, universalists"
I'm a universalist, and that's incorrect-- it's wrong.

"premise that Bible translations are wrong in their uses of the terms Hell, Gehenna, everlasting, and other words that claim eternal punishment"
Do you think the definition of the word:
"Hell" involves "eternal punishment"?   
"Gehenna" involves "eternal punishment"? 
"Sheol" involves "eternal punishment"?  (if a 'yes,' references/ reasoning?)

"the Bible, as the Word of God, is inerrant"
Even when it has contradictory claims?  What Bible version do you like?

"When the Bible must be rewritten to accommodate a doctrine, it is the doctrine that is wrong, not the Bible"
Even if the doctrine is 'eternal conscious torment'?

"universalists are picking and choosing when aionas ton aionon means 'limited.'"
Do you think aionas _always_ means 'everlasting'?

"God himself warns against attributing human standards to him"
So if I hate a particular person, and think that person needs to roast for an infinite length of time,  I should be careful/ cautious about claiming God also wants that person to roast for an infinite length of time?

"If Hell is only temporary then why did Jesus repeatedly warn people not to end up there"
Prison for most prisoners is temporary.  It's still good to warn kids repeatedly about the dangers of running with a bad crowd pursuing criminal activity.

"What about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man goes to hell with no way back to Abraham"
What's impossible for man is possible for the all-powerful God.

Luke 18:27 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/luke/18-27.htm
But Yeshua said, "Those things which are impossible with men can happen with God."

"I know that when we are alive we have that choice, not when we are dead"
Reference for "not when we are dead"?

"'now we can sin and someone can redeem and do the restitution for us' - What is LIE"
So not even Jesus can be a redeemer for a sinner?

"Kat Kerr explained it this way, she said, 'Whoever owns you, at the point of death will come for you." So make sure you belong to God, and not to the enemy.'" 
Sounds correct.  Peter Tan in his _The Spiritual World_ said something similar.

"Kat shared something that was eye-opening she said she was shown by the Lord. When someone who dies who has never had an opportunity to hear the message of Jesus and His redeeming love, the moment that person steps out of their physical body, into the spiritual realm, Jesus will appear to them and give them an opportunity to receive Him as Savior. I know, I was like many of you and said, 'But I thought you had to receive Jesus in the physical body and confess Him with the physical tongue as Savior.' Well it makes sense, how could you receive a Jesus who you never have heard about"
Sounds correct.
_Visions of the Spiritual World_ by Sadhu Sundar Singh - 1926
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
The Correction of Error ....
The Manifestation of Christ ....

"Search the word and don't go by experience"
What if one's experience is preaching in hell and helping some there to start having God's life, and that matches the word that says Jesus preached in hell-- what should one go with then? (both experience and the word?)

"Hell is eternal" Reference?
"God's fire changes, while hell's fire condemns/torments" Are you saying the Creator _didn't_ create hell?
"we cannot decide to be saved after we die" Reference?
"The captivity that was set free was before the manifestation of the Son of God" Reference?
"Once in hell you will remain in hell" Reference?

"he's missing some scriptural truth"
Such as?
"The dead know NOTHING, they're asleep"
So Jesus' account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus was unrealistic?

"we have been forbidden to awaken the dead"
Jesus preached in hell.  Was that forbidden?
Jesus resurrected several dead people. Was that forbidden?

"Mary K. Baxter and Weise were given divine revelations of hell.... I choose to believe the WORD"  Where in the Bible do you see Baxter and Weise?

Where in Rev 20:11-15 do you see roasting for an infinite length of time?

"God has set a chasm so that none can go from heaven to hell"
Not even Jesus can?
"9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"
That's a translation.  What word underlies "everlasting"? 
"Shut out means a finality and definite rejection not a waiting for one to change their mind and be embraced"
So a man in bed will get up and help a neighbor banging on his door asking for help entertaining a guest in one of Jesus' parables, but God can't be bothered by people roasting?

"THIS SOUNDS LIKE MORMANISM"
Mormons believe Jesus really existed-- do you believe Jesus really existed?
Baxter's book on hell is junk.
"HAVE A SECOND CHANCE"
Peter got a '2nd chance.' Jesus preached to people in hell who thereby got a '2nd chance.'

"God loves us and His heart is good and kind and loving towards us"
Even if somebody rejects God?  Will God roast for an infinite length of time those people who reject him?

1 Peter 3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_peter/3.htm
18 Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit. 19 And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol, 20 These who from the first were not convinced in the days of Noah when the long-suffering of God commanded that there would be an ark, upon the hope of their repentance, and only eight souls entered it and were kept alive by water.

"I?m talking about those who cannot and will never repent"
Evidence/reasoning that such exists?  If God arranged that they'd suffer in the exact same ways that they caused others to suffer, do you know for a fact that they'd still not repent?

"They do ritual abuse of children and sacrificing of babies and consuming them. Ask God if He loves these people"
There aren't any exceptions for child sacrificers + cannibals here:

John 3:16 (Young's Literal), https://biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

"does not talk of automatic salvation-- it says to he who believes"
Eventually every human will believe, if they haven't already.
Do you disagree with any of this?:

Philippians 2 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/philippians/2.htm
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, 9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name, 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- 11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"you cancel the Great White Throne Judgement and delete it from the Bible"
The Great White Throne Judgement happened.

"I don't believe hell is eternal. I believe that the lake of fire will consume/ annihilate all evil"
Do you think that those people who enter the lake of fire get snuffed out of existence?

The ancient Hebrews didn't have the concept of "everlasting."  'Olam' means world/age.
Daniel 12:2 (Young's Literal), https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-2.htm
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake,
some to life age-during,
and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

"whoever doesn't believe will be condemned"
All of God's 'negative' judgments are for a positive purpose.
Hebrews 12:6 (Young's Literal), https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-6.htm
for whom the Lord doth love He doth chasten,
and He scourgeth every son whom He receiveth;'

"the unpardonable sin"
There are many ages.  Even if something isn't pardoned in 1 age, or in 2 ages, it could still be pardoned in another, later age.

"depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness"
If people live evil lifestyles, their doing miracles and casting out demons and prophesying in Jesus' name won't get them into heaven.

"are you asking me because you want to know?"
My dialogues often include numerous questions.
"seems you have made up your mind"
Like everyone else, I have my views.  My views have changed over the years, and will continue to change.

"God also has great anger" 
What are some things God does while angry?  Suppose I put my hand on a piping hot stove, and burn myself; would it be OK for me to speak of the stove being angry?

//////////////////////////////////////////////
a visit to a valley of torture/death

Philip Mantofa Goes To Hell - WP Films (2011)
See Philip in the movie Furious Love: http://wpfilm.co/208jSyG
Philip Mantofa talks about his journey to hell. This is an excerpt from Furious Love: Deluxe Edition from WP Films.
https://youtu.be/RVwtbR2DHc4

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Gehenna
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/gehenna/
Gehenna is a transliteration from the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom." This latter form, however, is rare in the Old Testament, the prevailing name being "the valley of the son of Hinnom." Septuagint usually translates; where it transliterates the form is different from Gehenna and varies.

Jeremiah 7:32, from LXX:  Hebrew to Greek to English, plus parallelism, perhaps suggest that Gehenna is the Valley of the Slain:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/jeremias/7.html
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
when they shall no more say,
The altar of Tapheth,
and the valley of the son of Ennom, but,
The valley of the slain;
and they shall bury in Tapheth, for want of room.

Jeremiah 7:32
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/hinnom_2011.htm
HEB: וְגֵ֣יא בֶן־ הִנֹּ֔ם כִּ֖י אִם־
NAS: of the son of Hinnom, but the valley
KJV: of the son of Hinnom, but the valley
INT: the valley of the son of Hinnom for but

or Valley of Slaughter:
Jer 19:6, from LXX
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/jeremias/19.html
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
when this place shall no more be called,
The fall and burial-place of the son of Ennom, but,
The burial-place of slaughter.

or maybe Valley of Wailing:
Strong's Concordance 2011. Hinnom
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2011.htm
Hinnom: a valley Southwest of Jer.
Original Word: הִנֹּם
Part of Speech: Proper Name Location
Transliteration: Hinnom
Phonetic Spelling: (hin-nome')
Short Definition: Ben-hinnom
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
of uncertain derivation
Definition
a valley S.W. of Jer.
NASB Translation
Ben-hinnom* (7), Hinnom (6).
Brown-Driver-Briggs
הִנֹּם proper name, masculine (derivation & meaning dubious; according to Sim Bö Gf and others = wailing, Arabic... from cries of children (see below), but this improbable)....

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Mystical teachings"
Such as?
"activations"
Jesus had students, and did activations with them.  The students at first didn't bring God's healing power to others, then Jesus demonstrated, and then Jesus had them go out and bring God's healing to people-- the students got activated.
Do you think "sound frequencies" exist?
Do you think:
astronauts have done "space travel"? 
John the Revelator visited heaven?
Paul knew someone who visited heaven?

Revelation 4:1 (NIV) After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."
2 Cor 12 (Berean Literal) 1 ....I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago?whether in the body, I do not know, or out of the body, I do not know; God knows?such a man, having been caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man?whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows? 4 that he was caught up into Paradise, and he heard inexpressible words, not being permitted to man to speak.

"Paul explicitly said (in 2 Timothy 3:16)
that ALL scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching,
rebuking, correction, and training in righteousness"
Does that include the 'deuterocanonical' books not present these days
in Protestant Bibles?

"Jesus... the scriptures to bolster his arguments in.... By doing
this, he proves the validity of the old testament scriptures"
On the Mount of Transfiguration, there was Moses (representing the
law) and Elijah (representing the prophets).  God said, 'Listen to
Jesus.'  The words and deeds of the God-man Jesus far outweigh the
weight of the scriptures.  If the scriptures suggest X, while Jesus'
words and deeds suggest not-X, we have to side with Jesus.

"someone goes and sleeps around with someone who isn't his wife and ends up contracting an STI, who's to blame for his STI? Not God. That's the natural consequence of his actions from in a fallen world"
So the bacteria and viruses behind syphillis, HIV, and gonorrhea etc. didn't exist before The Fall?

"I'm talking about the divine retribution from God"
I'm supposed to imitate God.  What are some things I can do to imitate "divine retribution from God"?  (call down fire on my enemies to incinerate them?)

"The idea of the lake of fire in the bible isn't to purify anyone"
What's its purpose?  (for the enjoyment of onlookers, who get pleasure from seeing people in agony?)

"the idea is of torment/punishment.... is not a fire that purifies but a fire that torments.... the fire mentioned in revelations is always about torment or punishment"
Saddam Hussein and Hitler tortured certain people for a finite length of time.
In your view, who is more cruel:  Saddam Hussein, or God?  Hitler, or God?

The Old Testament and New Testament contain progressive revelation about the nature of God.  Some ideas about God, e.g. that God prompted King David to sin by taking a census, turned out to be incorrect or incomplete understandings.  Jesus is the definitive revelation of the nature of God; every Old Testament passage about God must be viewed through the lens of Jesus, who was God in an earth-suit.
Do you think God prompted David to sin by taking a census?  (A later, more theologically-informed rendition has satan and not God prompting the sin.)

2 Samuel 24
1 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."  10 And David's heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."
1 Chronicles 21
1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.  7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore He struck Israel. 8 So David said to God, "I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing; but now, I pray, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."

"all scripture is God breathed. They're from God. And God will never contradict himself"
What's your favorite Bible version?  I'll point out some contradictions in it.

"what God does when he's angry.... Revelations.... Acts 12:23, Acts 5:1-11"
Peter killed Ananias and his wife. Do you approve of me killing those who lie to the Holy Spirit?

"Ananias and Sapphira"
Where in Acts 5:1-11 does the Bible attribute the death of the couple to God?
Do you agree with me that:
Elijah incinerated soldiers?
2 of Jesus' students wanted to incinerate Samaritans?

2 Kings 1:10 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/2_kings/1-10.htm
Elijah answered the captain, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!" Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.

Luke 9 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/luke/9.htm
51 And it came to pass, in the completing of the days of his being taken up, that he fixed his face to go on to Jerusalem, 52 and he sent messengers before his face, and having gone on, they went into a village of Samaritans, to make ready for him, 53 and they did not receive him, because his face was going on to Jerusalem. 54 And his disciples James and John having seen, said, "Sir, wilt thou [that] we may command fire to come down from the heaven, and to consume them, as also Elijah did?" 55 and having turned, he rebuked them, and said, "Ye have not known of what spirit ye are; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save;" and they went on to another village.

///////////////////////////////////
"Your god says that he never changes"
Knowledge of God's nature has changed and improved-- it's evolved through the years.

"Man interprets his word to suit his own particular mindset"
Do you think people naturally _want_ to forgive their enemies?
"Sola scriptura" is a illogical position.

"the god of the old testament is an obvious and wholly unapologetic tyrant"
Including here?:
Exodus 21:23-25 (HCSB)
If there is an injury, then you must give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound.

I recall reading that previously, an acceptable response in the Ancient Near East was more like this approach:
Genesis 4:23-24 (NIV)
Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.
If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times."

"Explain to me how a god of love can conceive such a punishment as stoning to death anyone who as much as picks up sticks to build a fire on the sabbath day"
I haven't stockpiled a ready answer.  Shall I dig up and consult 2 books I have on God & the OT & violence?

I'm here to continue dialogues.
"what causes anyone to believe that the god of Abraham is a god of love"
The God-man Jesus is "the god of Abraham," Isaac, and Jacob, and Jesus was and is very loving.

"god, who orders stoning and burning as punishments"
I'm familiar with stoning.  Reference for burning?

Jeremiah 19:5 (NIV)
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

"'now, go forward and show no mercy. Kill every man, woman and child. Destroy every living thing'... This is love?"
Doesn't sound like it.  How certain is it that God said that?  Even today, many say things like, 'God told me to marry you, even though I'm already married'-- people often claim God said things that God didn't actually say.

"universalist position.... there are way more scriptures in both testaments, that support the doctrine that very few people are saved from eternal damnation"
In terms of scriptural evidence, the situation is this:
never-ending torture < annihilationism < universalism

Universal Restoration verses
https://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/universal-restoration-verses/

"Jesus taught this clearly"
Including with Jesus' remarks about the woman hunting for her lost coin, the shepherd hunting for his lost sheep, and the father anxiously awaiting the return of his prodigal son?
Including here?:

Luke 16 (Berean Literal), https://biblehub.com/blb/luke/16.htm
8 And the master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the sons of this age are more shrewd than the sons of the light in their own generation. 9 And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by the mammon of unrighteousness, that when it fails, they might receive you into the eternal dwellings.

"Jesus said that very few enter heaven on the narrow path and that most travel the broad path to destruction.... Not a temporary state of punishment, but absolute and permanent destruction"
The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek.  The word in question can mean "total and absolute destruction," but it can also mean 'ruination.'

"so did Paul"
Including in Romans 5? 

Incidentally, the Greek copies of Romans 5:7 have a corrupted reading.
Romans 5:7, https://biblehub.com/romans/5-7.htm
(NIV) Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person,
though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) For a man will hardly die for the sake of the wicked,
however a man perhaps may dare to die for the sake of the good.

"to Timothy, that Jesus is the saviour of all"
1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV)
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Philippians 2 (NIV)
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed?not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence?continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

//////////////////////////////////
"I came not except for the lost sheep of Israel"
Indeed.

Matthew 15 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
21 But Yeshua went out from there and he came to the borders of Tsur and of Tsidon. 22 And behold *a Canaanitess woman* from those borders came forth crying out and she said, "Have pity on me my lord, son of David, my daughter is badly driven by a demon." 23 But he did not give her an answer, and his disciples came and begged him, and they were saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us." 24 But he answered and said to them, *"I am not sent except to the sheep that have strayed from the house of Israel."* 25 But she came and worshiped him [better:  bowed down to him, maybe in worship] and she said, "My Lord, help me." 26 He said to her, "It is not good to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, my lord, even the dogs eat from the crumbs that fall from their master's table and they live." 28 But then Yeshua said to her, "O woman, great is your faith; it will be done for you as you will." And her daughter was healed from that moment.

Mark 7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/mark/7.htm
24 Yeshua arose from there and came to the coast of Tyre and of Sidon, and he entered a certain house and he did not want anyone to know him and he could not be hidden. 25 For immediately a certain woman heard about him, whose daughter had a foul spirit, and she came falling before his feet. 26 But she was *a pagan woman from Phoenicia of Syria,* and she was begging him to cast out the demon from her daughter. 27 And Yeshua said to her, *"Let the children be filled first, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."* 28 But she answered and said to him, "Yes, my lord, but even the dogs from under the table eat the children's crumbs." 29 Yeshua said to her, "Go; because of this saying the demon has gone out from your daughter." 30 And she went to her house and found her daughter lying in bed, and the demon had been cast out of her.

"He did indeed come to his own people first"
Some of whom accepted him as being the promised Messiah, while the bulk of his own people rejected him (I'm looking at Zechariah 12:10-11, 13:1-2, and especially 13:7-9.  Chapter 14 looks interesting.)

Matthew 23 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that murdered The Prophets and stoned those who were sent to it! How many times have I desired to gather your children, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate!

"He did indeed come to his own people first, but he also always showed a willingness to engage with gentiles"
Jesus also told the subversive story about the good _Samaritan_, and mentioned:

Luke 4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/luke/4.htm
24 But he said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is not a Prophet who is received in his town." 25 "For truly I say to you that many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah the Prophet, when the heavens were shut for three years and six months, and there was great hunger in all the land." 26 "And *Elijah was not sent to one of them except to Tsarepta of Tsidon unto a widow woman."* 27 "And there were many lepers among Israel in the days of Elisha the Prophet and *not one of them was purified except Naaman the Syrian."* 28 And when they who were in the synagogue heard these things, they were all filled with rage. 29 And they arose and they thrust him outside of the city and they brought him unto the ridge of the mountain on which the city was built to cast him from the precipice. 30 But he passed through the midst of them and he departed.

/////////////////////////////////
"It is quite possible that words are attributed to god YHVH that he didn't actually say. There is a strong suggestion that he said that scribes had indeed lied in the writing of the old testament.
In regards to burning to death as a punishment for law breaking: Leviticus 20:14, 21:9, Genesis 38:24, Joshua 7:15 - 24-25. I can provide you with at least another half a dozen from the top of my head and I'm pretty sure there are many more.  Once again I ask you, are these the punishments of a god of love?"

"Malachi 3:2-3.
How could i have been so blind??
The fire is truly a purification process. And surely, these verses also confirm my suspicions that the Levitical law was added to by the Levites. Why else would Malachi directly refer to the sons of Levi in these verses?!
Oh Lord Jesus. I pray with tears of true contrition that you forgive me for my blindness and I pray for every other soul that has lived in the anger and torment that I have lived in for so many years because of lack of understanding.
I am so sorry.  .... the lord has once again called me back onto the narrow path.
Time to go off to the woods, get on my knees and pray from the heart. I feel the presence of the holy spirit all around me for the first time in so, so many years. Tears are pouring down my face like a waterfall. Tears of pure relief and joy.
All brought about by holy FIRE."

//////////////////////////////////
That's beautiful.
"appreciate prayers"
Happy to do so. I'll also mention you to my small group for prayer.

"the Lord is true. He told me as a wee lad that he would never leave my side"
He can't, given that he's in you.  He's in everybody whether they know it or not, relentlessly knocking away at hearts awaiting a 'Come in.'  And he's got an infinite length of time to work with.

"take myself off somewhere quiet for as long as it takes and listen to him.... spend time in prayer, away from the world so that i can listen without distraction"
Sounds wise. 

"I feel like Eliyahu must of felt when our Abba called him in the cave. 'What doest though here, Eliyahu'.... Time to come back fully into the light, stop running and do what is required of me, whatever that may be"
I'm reminded of Jonah (meaning Dove in Aramaic, and I assume also Hebrew).
"Do what is required of me" might be better recast as 'Do things I _get_ to do in partnership with/ working with my heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit-- and we have fun doing it.'

Were the early church fathers who were universalists 'heretics'?

_The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Volume 12_, edited by Albert Hauck, et. al., pg. 96
https://books.google.com/books?id=n2EhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA96
Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church (q.v.) until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it. In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria [see ALEXANDRIA, SCHOOL OF], Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown. Doederlein says that "In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future torments." In the dark ages Universalism almost disappeared....

"So all the verses that use 'olam' and that translate into God is eternal, the eternal God, should be the age-during God"
2 examples of such verses?
I'm not sure what Youngs Literal means by "age-during."

"verse says: 'these to eternal life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt'"
I'd render it as,
'these to the world/age of life,' and
'these to shame and the world/age of contempt.'

Daniel 12:2 interlinear, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-2.htm
And many of those who sleep of the earth in the dust shall awake
these to life
5769/ ō w lām/ עוֹלָ֔ם/ everlasting
and these to shame [and] contempt
5769/ ō w lām/ עוֹלָֽם/ everlasting

"Ananias and Sapphira-after lying to the Holy Spirit"
Did God forgive Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit?  If 'yes,' was that forgiveness granted before, or after, God killed them?
What leads you to the conclusion that God killed them?-- upon what basis/grounds did you conclude that?

"it is very deceitful to pretend like God's anger doesn't exist when there are numerous accounts of it in the Bible"
Jesus was God in the flesh.  What are all the instances of which you're aware of Jesus being angry?

"as much as I know God is abounding in great love, I also know he has a great and terrible wrath"
In your view, is it OK for people to have "great and terrible wrath," just as "God... has a great and terrible wrath"?

Luke 6:32-36 (NIV)
32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

"anyone who reads Acts 5 can tell that Ananias and Sapphira died no ordinary death"
Agreed.

"Unless you intentionally blind your eyes to what is written there, I cannot help you"
It sounds like you're unable to justify your claim that God killed Ananias and Sapphira. 
Here are some more deaths that were far from "ordinary"-- do you think God did these killings?:

2 Kings 1:10 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/2_kings/1-10.htm
Elijah answered the captain, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!" Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.

"what do you say about the Angel that struck Herold?"
I don't know what to make of it. 
Who do you think prompted King David to sin by taking a census?  (satan? God?)

2 Samuel 24
1 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."  10 And David's heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."
1 Chronicles 21
1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.  7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore He struck Israel. 8 So David said to God, "I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing; but now, I pray, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."

"Bible may not contain many passages showing Jesus as angry"
Jesus was God in the flesh.  What are all the passages of which you're aware of Jesus being angry?

"but Jesus himself does talk of a coming time when the righteous (those Justified by the blood of Jesus) and the unrighteous shall be seperated, with the unrighteous being separated into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
Is there anger involved in that separation?  Any sadness?

Matthew 25:41-46 (based on Younan's translation from the original Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com)
41. Then he will also say to those that are at his left,
You cursed, go away from me l'nura-d'l'ailm [to-the fire of-to-the world/age, i.e. to the world/age of fire],
that which is prepared for Akelqartza and his angels.
42. For I was hungry
and you did not give to me (food) to eat.
And I was thirsty
and you did not give me drink.
43. And I was a stranger
and you did not take me in.
And I was naked
and you did not cover me.
And I was sick and I was in prison
and you did not visit me.'
44. Even then they will answer and say,
'Maran [our Lord], when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and (did) not minister to you?'
45. Then he will answer and say to them,
'Amain I say to you, inasmuch as you did not (do) to one of these little ones,
you also did not do to me.'
46. And these will depart l'thshniqa-d'l'ailm [to-torment of-to-the world/age, i.e. to the world/age of torment],
and the zadiqa [righteous] l'khia-d'l'ailm [to-life of-to-the world/age, i.e. to the world/age of life]."

"you disregard old testament passages talking about the judgement of God"
I agree God makes judgments.  We're discussing whether God makes judgments in anger.

"Here are new testament ones for you.... If this doesn't do it, then I don't know what will"
In what you quoted, where did you see any mention of anger?

"everlasting fire"
"you think God can't do worse?"
All of God's judgments have a positive outcome, and are superior to man's attempts at criminal justice.
Saddam Hussein and Hitler tortured certain people for a finite length of time.
In your view, who is the bigger, meaner torturer: 
Saddam Hussein, or God?  Hitler, or God?

Jesus is the role model.  Jesus' words and deeds show us what sort of behavior God wants from people.  In no way did what Jacob's sons do comport with Jesus' example.

Signs for the definitive end of the Old Covenant era appear in Mt 24 and parallel passages, and Revelation.

"purpose of the church"
2 Corinthians 5 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_corinthians/5.htm
17 All that is in The Messiah is therefore The New Creation; the old order has passed away to such. 18 And everything has become new from God -- he who reconciled us to himself in The Messiah, and he has given us the Ministry of the reconciliation. 19 For God was in The Messiah- he who reconciled the universe with his Majesty, and he has not accounted their sins to them and has placed in us our own message of the reconciliation. 20 We are Ambassadors therefore in the place of The Messiah, and as if he who is God requested of you by us; in the place of The Messiah, we beseech you therefore: "Be reconciled to God." 21 For he who had not known sin made himself to become sin in your place, that we would become the righteousness of God in him.

All those children who were aborted, or who died young, have glorified bodies and reside in heaven. 
Brad Jersak had a woman who'd aborted 2 talk with Jesus, and Jesus showed her her 2 children.  They were in heaven with Jesus, and had desired to remain as young children rather than grow up.  Jesus told the woman she could visit her 2 kids whenever she wanted. See
_IN: Incarnation & Inclusion, Abba & Lamb_ (2019), 184pp., 140-146
https://www.amazon.com/Incarnation-Inclusion-Abba-Lamb/dp/1082461733/

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"So what does it mean for him to tell us to depart, he never knew us, and how will he remain unchangeable if he reversed his judgment?"
Do you think that from humanity's perspective, God sometimes changes his mind?

2 Kings 20 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/niv/2_kings/20.htm
1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 "Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him:
5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, 'This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.' "
7 Then Isaiah said, "Prepare a poultice of figs." They did so and applied it to the boil, and he recovered.

'Thrown is the Greek word "bollo" which means to "cast away without further thought as to where it lands." '
Do you think God has the power to take cut-off olive branches and graft them "into their own olive tree"?
Do you agree with Romans 11:26 that "all Israel will be saved"?

Romans 11 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/11.htm
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.

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For Mt 24:30 and Rev 1:7, "tribes of the earth" should be "tribes of the land" (as in, the 12 tribes of the land of Israel). 
Many "of the earth" in Revelation should be "of the land" (Revelation speaks of horrors that descended on Israel before the end of A.D. 70, and not about calamities spanning the entire globe).

'Race' as in the phrases below doesn't belong in the NT.
Syrophoenician by race
Cyprus by race
Joseph's race
took advantage of our race
Pontus by race
Alexandrian by race
you are a chosen race

Without the possibility of not-loving, there can't be love.
If God made Adam and Eve, and they _had_ to 'love' him because that's what they were programmed to do, and there was never a possibility of not-loving him, and the _only_ option was to 'love' him, then their loving him _couldn't_ happen.
God created humans to be and to mature as sons of God.  God didn't envision robots programmed to serve God.
Billions have suffered pain, but God is developing/rearing/training sons of God.

"God's plan is perfect"
God has numerous plans.  Whatever humans do, God has a plan for proceeding from there.  It's backup plan upon backup plan upon backup plan.  God has an end goal in mind, and human successes and human failures are all a part of the road toward that ultimate end goal.  The all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitely-loving God will get what he wants.

Mike Parsons says that God told him this:
"The restoration of all things is not Our ultimate desire but it is the way Our original intention for oneness can be achieved. Once all things are restored, then the journey continues into the ages to come; and My sons can become ascended fathers who can be like We are. Restoration first begins with the truth of who We are unveiled. Love, in Perichoresis and Trinitarian truth restored, leads to inclusion being revealed as a consequence of love's passion and zeal for relationship with our children."

"My sons can become ascended fathers who can be like We are" is similar to a remark by Sadhu Sundar Singh. Parsons is a guy on youtube.

https://freedomarc.blog/2011/09/21/welcome-to-freedom-arc/
On this blog we post content including the teaching of Mike Parsons (photo above) and others....

https://www.youtube.com/c/MikeParsonsFreedomAR/playlists

_My Journey Beyond Beyond: An autobiographical record of deep calling to deep in pursuit of intimacy with God_ (2018) by Mike Parsons 
https://www.amazon.com/My-Journey-Beyond-Autobiographical-Intimacy/dp/1789630088/

Because of what Jesus did, God forgave everybody's sin.  Those who have believed in/ trusted in Jesus have accessed/ gotten hold of/ appropriated that forgiveness.
It's as if everybody on earth was given a million dollars, held at a local bank; only those who have withdrawn money from their million dollar account have made use of/ accessed that million dollars.
Because of what Jesus did, every human is immensely rich.  Unfortunately, only a fraction of people have even an inkling of the immense riches made available to them.

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"it's a place of never ending torture"
Evidence for the never-ending part?  In terms of scriptural evidence, the situation is this:
never-ending torture < annihilationism < universalism

Universal Restoration verses
https://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/universal-restoration-verses/

"Jesus himself spoke of a place called hell"
I agree there is a hellish realm.  I'd add there are several hellish realms.

"God is more merciful than we think"
Indeed.
"there are fallen angels on this earth who belong to Satan"
Everything created belongs to its Creator.
Mike Parsons has released love to and forgiven 3 dark angels, including one called Destiny Robber, and now those 3 are serving God. Destiny Robber became Destiny Restorer.

"God wants all to come to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4)"
Indeed.  And God is relentless in that pursuit, and has an infinite length of time to work with.

At one point, I almost became a Catholic.  If I became anything these days, it'd be Eastern Orthodox.

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"mixture of Law plus Grace"
The Old Covenant was definitively ended in A.D. 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple.

"Rule in heavenly"
Do you agree with this?:

Ephesians 2:6 (NIV)
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

I haven't really found any red flags with Mike Parsons - as I discussed red flags for the Mystical movement in The Futuristic Maze thread - he actually stated that before he found the mystical path; he started reading out loud Bible verses over his life and this method allowed him to receive more and more insight into the verses.

Quote from: Andrew on August 18, 2020, 07:45:54 PM
I haven't really found any red flags with Mike Parsons

Sounds good.

Quotehe started reading out loud Bible verses over his life and this method allowed him to receive more and more insight into the verses

Neat.

A neat video:
https://anchorednorth.org/enlightened/

Hellish realms exist.  Many are suffering badly in those hellish realms right now.
Nobody will suffer in hellish realms for an infinite length of time, because eventually the people there will be preached to by Jesus and by humans residing on earth, and the suffering will end.
Some of the information about the spiritual world uncovered by New Age people is true.

Here's a healing miracle of tinnitus, and a healing of back pain and of a detached kneecap, that look credible to me:

Todd White - Miracle at the Shawarma Shop (ISRAEL Part 8 ) - Jan 6, 2018
https://youtu.be/R71UJ_E7CwE

3:00+:
Must Watch Dramatic New York Healing and Salvation - Oct 20, 2013 - Thomas Fischer
https://youtu.be/w_b2B15037U

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Abram aka Abraham got life, despite not being an Israelite.
Genesis 15 (Berean Study Bible), biblehub
6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
7 The LORD also told him, ?I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.?

Despite not being an Israelite, Abraham had righteousness accredited to him. God gives life to the dead, including Abraham. Ultimately, _all_ humans will believe in Yeshua the Meshikha, and have abundant life-- including you.

Romans 4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), biblehub
3 For what do the Scriptures say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." ....
5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness. ....
9 Is this blessing therefore on the circumcision or on the uncircumcision? For we say "His faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness." 10 How therefore was it accounted to him, in circumcision or in uncircumcision? It was not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 For he received circumcision as a sign and the seal of the righteousness of his faith, when in uncircumcision, that he would be the father to all those who believe among the uncircumcision, that it would be reckoned to them also for righteousness.
....
16 Because of this, he would be justified by faith, which is by grace, and The Promise would be sure to all his seed, not to the one who is of The Written Law only, but also to the one who is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 According to what is written: "I have appointed you a father to the multitude of the nations", before God, in whom you believed, who gives life to the dead, and he calls those who are not as though they are.
....
22 Therefore, it was accounted to him for righteousness. 23 And this was not written for his sake alone that his faith was accounted for righteousness, 24 But also for our sake, for he is going to reckon it to us also, we who believe in The One who raised Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah from the grave, 25 And who was handed over because of our sins; and he arose to justify us.

_The Jesus Secret:  Who I Am_ by Daniel Yordy (2007), 197pp. 
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Secret-Who-Am/dp/147913208X/
On 70:
If there is one lost, I do not rest until I have found that one.  Do not think that hard hearts or cold minds can stop Me, or sin or wickedness or evil.  Violence and murder cannot hold Me back. Death does not prevent Me.  The gates of Hades do not stand against My assault.  I never stop.
I never stop until that last, final one is found.  Until I have reached that final frozen heart and it melts before Me and says, "Jesus, You are Lord."  I AM the Relentless One.
I live in your heart.

_The Ecstatic Journey:  Walking the Mystical Path in Everyday Life_ by Sophy Burnham (1999), 323pp. 
https://www.amazon.com/Ecstatic-Journey-Walking-Mystical-Everyday/dp/0345424794/
https://www.bookfinder.com
On 212-214:
Here is the revelation of another friend of mine, seen while "tripping" on LSD.   ....  A moment later:  "I was in heaven.  I was on a cloud, certainly no longer on Earth.
"I remember saying, 'I want to see God.'  There was a Voice or Knowledge over to my left.  It said, _I am God_.
"I turned and saw a bright, BRIGHT light!
I was quite matter-of-fact.  'Why am I alive?' I asked.  'What is the point of my life?'

"Then I was taken to the edge of the cloud and shown a Vision.  I saw a long rope, and Jesus at the front of it had the rope over his shoulder, and he was pulling humanity by the rope.  Humanity in the form of thousands of people stretched out in a long V, like a cone or the point of a pencil if Jesus were the lead at the tip.  I couldn't see the end of this huge mass of people.  I was up toward the point, and all of us were pulling Humanity toward this.... toward God!  Toward the light!

But the Light was on the cloud with me.  There were other Beings up on the cloud, full of light.  I don't remember features.  They were separate from the Light Source.  They moved around.  I felt that one of them looked over the edge of the cloud with me.

"This cone, this mass of humanity, was coming through a narrow cleft or gorge carved between high cliffs.  I was also down there, fairly near the front of the cone, helping to pull it to a lighter, happier place.
"I had no more questions to ask God.  God was in the Light where there is no Time.  Then I had to come back into my body, which had now moved to a chair in the kitchen.  I kept repeating, 'I don't want to go back.'
But I was given the information that without a body you can't take action on the earth.  Therefore I had to return.  It was emotionally painful, sad.  I felt constricted in my body.  I didn't like it.  I loved the spacious, open feeling of heaven."