Faith comes by hearing?

[guest6667]

13 for every one — whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

14 How then shall they call upon [him] in whom they did not believe? and how shall they believe [on him] of whom they did not hear? and how shall they hear apart from one preaching? 15 and how shall they preach, if they may not be sent? according as it hath been written, 'How beautiful the feet of those proclaiming good tidings of peace, of those proclaiming good tidings of the good things!'

16 But they were not all obedient to the good tidings, for Isaiah saith, 'Lord, who did give credence to our report?' 17 so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report (ἀκοὴ) through a saying of God, (Romans 10:13-17)

ἀκοὴ (akoē)
       1)hearing, as a sense
       2)ear, organ of hearing
       3)said of which is heard, i.e. sound, din. Noise, news, information, tradition
Matthew 4:24: and his fame (ἀκοὴ) went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them.
       4)of the act of hearing, listening, audition
Exodus 15:26 (Septuagint ALT): and said, "If hearing you shall hear (ακούσης) [fig., If you shall indeed hear] the voice of the LORD your God, and you shall do things pleasing before Him, and will listen to His commandments, and keep all His ordinances, every disease which I have brought upon the Egyptians I will not bring upon you, for I am the LORD, the One healing you."


Hearing can mean to obey;

'And it hath been, if thou dost hearken (shama) diligently to the voice of Jehovah thy God, to observe to do all His commands which I am commanding thee to-day, that Jehovah thy God hath made thee uppermost above all the nations of the earth, (Deuteronomy 28:1)


Hearing with or of faith?

2 this only do I wish to learn from you — by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith? 3 so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit, now in the flesh do ye end? 4 so many things did ye suffer in vain! if, indeed, even in vain. 5 He, therefore, who is supplying to you the Spirit, and working mighty acts among you — by works of law or by the hearing of faith [is it]? (Galatians 3:2-5)

Galatians 3:2, NIV; ... by believing what you heard?
                        ESV; ... by hearing with faith?
                        ERV; ... by the hearing of faith?



Hearing does not bring about faith.

1 We may fear, then, lest a promise being left of entering into His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short, 2 for we also are having good news proclaimed, even as they, but the word heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard, (Hebrews 4:1-2)


What then is the point of hearing?

20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. (1 Corinthians 1:20-21)


Faith comes by hearing, does not exclude faith coming through hearing, directly from God.

11 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that were proclaimed by me, that it is not according to man, 12 for neither did I from man receive it, nor was I taught [it], but through a revelation of Jesus Christ, (Galatians 1:11-12)

6 and it came to pass, in my going on and coming nigh to Damascus, about noon, suddenly out of the heaven there shone a great light round about me, 7 I fell also to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me, Saul, Saul, why me dost thou persecute? 8 'And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? and he said unto me, I am Jesus the Nazarene whom thou dost persecute — 9 and they who are with me the light did see, and became afraid, and the voice they heard not of him who is speaking to me — (Acts 22:6-9)


Why does faith come through hearing?

See, brethren, lest there shall be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in the falling away from the living God, (Hebrews 3:12)

and a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, worshipping God, was hearing, whose heart the Lord did open to attend to the things spoken by Paul; (Acts 16:14)


We love because he first loved us. We hear him because he first heard us;

19 "The Lord looked down from his sanctuary on high, from heaven he viewed the earth, 20 to hear the groans of the prisoners and release those condemned to death." 21 So the name of the Lord will be declared in Zion and his praise in Jerusalem
(NIV Psalm 102:19-21)


The good news that Israel heard, in the book of Hebrews, was to enter into God's sabbath rest.

3 for we do enter into the rest — we who did believe, as He said, 'So I sware in My anger, If they shall enter into My rest — ;' and yet the works were done from the foundation of the world, 4 for He spake in a certain place concerning the seventh [day] thus: 'And God did rest in the seventh day from all His works;' 5 and in this [place] again, 'If they shall enter into My rest — ;' 6 since then, it remaineth for certain to enter into it, and those who did first hear good news entered not in because of unbelief — (Hebrews 4:3-6)


The physical sabbath was a type of gospel speaking of the kingdom to come, when our hearts have been restored and we can rest from our works, in him.

The good news of Jesus Christ, Son of God. If he is Lord of the sabbath, then surely he is Lord of the proclamation of his sabbath.

23 And it came to pass — he is going along on the sabbaths through the corn-fields — and his disciples began to make a way, plucking the ears, 24 and the Pharisees said to him, 'Lo, why do they on the sabbaths that which is not lawful?' 25 And he said to them, 'Did ye never read what David did, when he had need and was hungry, he and those with him? 26 how he went into the house of God, (at 'Abiathar the chief priest,') and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to eat, except to the priests, and he gave also to those who were with him?' 27 And he said to them, 'The sabbath for man was made, not man for the sabbath, 28 so that the son of man is lord also of the sabbath.' (Mark 2:23-28)

The gospel was made for man, its purpose is to call people into the kingdom, not to shut people out! So if someone does not have the facilities to hear a earthy, foolish word, why should this stop God giving a heavenly word to anyone? After all, his word is for the ones who know they are poor, feeble and in-need of a saviour.


The Word is the good news;

1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we did behold, and our hands did handle, concerning the Word of the Life — 2 and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us — 3 that which we have seen and heard declare we to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ; (1John 1:1-3)


The Word is rejected by the flesh.

9 And he said to them, 'Well do ye put away the command of God that your tradition ye may keep; 10 for Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, He who is speaking evil of father or mother — let him die the death; 11 and ye say, If a man may say to father or to mother, Korban (that is, a gift), [is] whatever thou mayest be profited out of mine, 12 and no more do ye suffer him to do anything for his father or for his mother, 13 setting aside the word of God for your tradition that ye delivered; and many such like things ye do.'


Hearing the Word is not the end, but only the beginning.

no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day; (John 6:44)

4 But hear me, O Lord, that I also shall speak; and I will ask You, and You teach me. 5 I was hearing indeed [the] report of You by [the] ear before; but now my eye has seen You. 6 Therefore I belittled myself, and melted; and I have considered myself dust and ashes." (Job 42:4-6 Septuagint ALT)


God is calling people not into a religion or a new futuristic, super city. He is calling people into his family;

Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, (Ephesians 2:19)


I think, from much of this, it can be drawn that the hearing that goes hand in hand with faith, which you are saved through, by grace, is hearing God, not a human being. The faith anyone receives, comes from an utterance of God, (to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word). It is God's prerogative, who is given what portion of faith when they are given it, he is not limited by foolish preaching, but, like other rituals, it has a place until the Messiah returns to everyone.


Hearing the Gospel is to receive a new heart that can, one day, be full of all good things, love/God.

3 And hear O Israel, and observe to be doing [them], that it shall be well with you, and that you* (plural) shall be exceedingly multiplied, just as the LORD the God of your fathers said, to give to you a land flowing [with] milk and honey. And these [are] the ordinances, and the judgements, as many as the LORD commanded the sons [and daughters] of Israel in the wilderness, they having come out from [the] land of Egypt.
4 "Be hearing, O Israel! The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 And you will love the LORD your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and your whole strength. 6 And these words, as many as I command you this day, will be in your heart and in your soul. ...
10 And it will be when the LORD your God shall [have] brought you into the land which He swore an oath to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and Jacob, to give to you great and beautiful cities which you did not build , 11 houses full of all good [things] which you did not fill, wells having been hewed in rock which you did not hew, vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant, then having eaten and been satisfied,
(Deuteronomy 6:3-6,10-11)

[guest6667]

15 and how shall they preach, if they may not be sent? according as it hath been written, 'How beautiful the feet of those proclaiming good tidings of peace, of those proclaiming good tidings of the good things!'

I should have emphasised this, because;

17 so that if any one [is] in Christ — [he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things. 18 And the all things [are] of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation, 19 how that God was in Christ — a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation, (2 Corinthians 5:17-19)

To share what God has given with anyone, in a word or a gesture is, itself, a gift from God.

[guest6667]

50 And a certain one of them smote the servant of the chief priest, and took off his right ear,
51 and Jesus answering said, 'Suffer ye thus far,' and having touched his ear, he healed him.
Luke 22:50-51

[rosered]

  Loving what you shared Ed !

  :dsunny:  there is so much to explore and think upon .

About the healing  , by Jesus giving us eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart to understand what the Spirit is revealing ....

  the newness of Life by walking and talking in the Spirit   Romans 6 Dead to Sin, Alive to God
...3Or aren't you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

4We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

I recall a study on the  hearing also  many years ago and these posts bring back those very things .   :HeartThrob:

  careful how you hear /listen , is also  a clue to me and faith comes by hearing ..  and being healed or made whole , the division between the soul and [spirit] Spirit  in Hebrews 4

  Seeing His Word is a sharp two edged Sword  , the duality of  division , I did not come to give peace but a Sword Not Peace, But Division
...50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three....

I could not help but think of the  , if that light be darkness how great is that darkness 

  Matt 6 The Lamp of the Body
22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money....

The Lesson of the Lamp

...17For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be made known and brought to light.

18Pay attention, therefore, to how you listen. Whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him."


1 Corinthians 3:18
Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise.


to me the difference is the wisdom of the world/below  verses the Wisdom from Above God

and discerning between the two  , as to be as wise as serpents but harmless as  doves

Matt 10
Sheep among Wolves
15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16Look, I am sending you out like sheep among wolves;

therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

7But beware of men; for they will hand you over to their councils and flog you in their synagogues....


Just as our voices can be like many waters   from above or from below ..... 

'Many waters' symbolizes the voice of God and/or the voices of a multitude. Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


lots to ponder    :friendstu:

[marie glen]

Amen Fatbird! Especially "into His family" (Jesus the firstborn is the prototype) and "all things are completed from the foundation of the world".. and "To share what God has given with anyone, in a word or a gesture is, itself, a gift from God." :thumbsup:

And amen Sister Rose! :thumbsup: And great verses!

[guest6667]

52From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three....

A bit of topic, but do you have any thoughts on this? the meaning of two or three.

22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness...

18Pay attention, therefore, to how you listen. Whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him."...

to me the difference is the wisdom of the world/below  verses the Wisdom from Above God ...

If the eye sees or not because of the Spirit, then what does it mean to be careful? Assess whether we do something in the right spirit, and if not, pray to be given light?
The eye that sees is given more, because it is give fruits of the spirit. While the eye that doesn't see is given fruits of the flesh/darkness.

[rosered]

 

  Hi Ed ,

  I have a tendency  to be an overthinker , it is wearisome   to say the least .


  I keep on thinking of Paul's  saying as he always seems to expound on the   testimony of Jesus Christ giving us some major clues or revealing of  Jesus Christ as  the  Truth =Word of God  etc and the newfound freedom in Christ   though forgiveness of sin  that leads to death . .

  Saying to us not to miss out on the simplicity  in Christ  2 Cor 11  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

   and   also our child like faith  in the Holy Spirit teaching us is how we do enter into the kingdom of heaven , here are some of the examples
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

John 3:3-6
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...
  I believe when Jesus was speaking   about the house  being divided    2 against 3    is always witnesses    and the great division   of the soul  , Adam is a living soul     and the Spirit   being  our Lord Jesus Christ Body  connected to the headship and authority our FATHER GOD .

  Jesus gave up His soul[life ]  that died to make new offspring come forth  from the dead   this being the  perfect sacrifice  for guilt offering that pleased the Father God once for all time .  this foretelling was prophesied  by  [ Isaiah 53]   
when  Gods sees His soul  and the argument of exactly what a soul is  an intriguing   study  of itself .

I always think of our old friend Micah   when  the soul is  considered   , I see the divisions of faith in the witness and the power of its ability to   persuade  , just as the serpent is crafty   to  its purpose to trap those into death  though guilt  and hold them accountable  , so is JESUS  TO ITS ETERNAL PURPOSE to free though forgiveness !!

  It is referring to the   2 covenants one being  life and the other being death    and two  natures of  the laws of the two very different trees   

the law of Knowledge being   the one of good and evil   , Go to do good and evil is present   still creates a self righteousness that is clothed in filthy rags and hypocrisy , by their deeds/works  they deny him , 
  that corruption   is   a little but destroys much good that would come    and hold one in contempt  though the self righteousness .

and the tree of Life being the perfecting  or finishing work of the HOLY SPIRIT  to set those free and to not handle nor touch that tree of self knowlege again ,   but though MERCY would the salvation of God come though Christ forgiveness of sin  that brings  LIFE  and not death by being taught by the HOLY SPIRIT by the Living God  .
  IF  the house of God  is still  under the rule of Babylon , we see the 7  churches in   Revelation with its   rewards and its  punishments  that must be  worked out  as goals like Paul called the race  to the finish .

   the prize is Fully in  Jesus Christ  revealed   though revelation as a living   testimony and witness  and there is  no darkness at all ...

I have also considered the 8 woes in Matt 23 as opposing the direct commandment OF GOD working against by  being satan adversary   as a resistance against GODS WORD . and   still lying against the  TRUTH .

and we know when the house is divided against itself it cannot stand in the Truth   but lies in sin and death still and  still  spreading death , not  the  good news of the gospel . Matthew 12:22-28 satan against satan   good verses the evil   and every confusion  etc. 

  Matt 12 This is why Jesus says make the tree good and its fruit  good or make it evil and its fruit evil [works ]  a Tree  is known by its fruits /works / doings . not as it says , but does !


seeing men as trees walking in the Spirit of life or in the spirit of death still   not hearing His voice or commandment
LOVE GOD first  and love all as you do your own selves  ...
 
some thinking keeps us trapped in sin nature still [evil /harmful] .  but being able to have the mind of Christ is pure  and peaceable and holy and good  . But  we have to ask   the Holy Spirit  for this for all ,  especially our enemies  , even if they be of our own household ... or within . and without and all around us .


  Hope its helpful  brother ... trying to explain the best I can  :friendstu:




 

[guest6667]

Led as little children, as well as, corrected, fed and clothed. Thinking for ourselves- devising our own paths, our own ideals and our own religions, is death. But the thinking that is inspired by God is love, peace and understanding.

13 Blessed is the man who has found wisdom, and the mortal who knows prudence.
14 For it is better to traffic for her, than for treasures of gold and silver.
15 And she is more valuable than precious stones: no evil thing shall resist her: she is well known to all that approach her, and no precious thing is equal to her in value.
16 For length of existence and years of life are in her right hand; and in her left hand are wealth and glory: out of her mouth proceeds righteousness, and she carries law and mercy upon her tongue.
17 Her ways are good ways, and all her paths are peaceful.
18 She is a tree of life to all that lay hold upon her; and she is a secure help to all that stay themselves on her, as on the Lord.
(Proverbs 3 Septuagint BST)


7 The beginning of a good way is to do justly; and it is more acceptable with God than to offer sacrifices.
8 He that seeks the Lord shall find knowledge with righteousness: and they that rightly seek him shall find peace.
(Proverbs 16 Septuagint BST)

I got a lot from your post, but didn't quite get the 'two or three' part. Looking at my question, I wasn't very specific. I meant to ask if you thought there was a significance to 'two and three', as a pair.


The reason this came to mind was that I was think of the 'two or three witnesses'. Since the Law is so specific, 'two or three' seems to be pointing to something else (as 'two' would have been more accurate). The 'three' could imply; two or more, but the pattern pops up so often.

Here are some rushed thoughts on the subject. Starting in the context of Titus 3.

8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
(Titus 3 HCSB)

It says we can separate after 'one or two' warnings, just wondered why not 'two or three'?

If 'two and three' are holy, pointing towards God as part of his Law, then 'one and two' seem to fall short. As someone who half agrees with Micah, I see two as a symbol of man, who is body and spirit. The Body represents the Law of Moses and the spirit represents the Law of God.

Paul is warning against the divisive fruits of flesh, we are to maintain the spirit of unity. Symbolically, the pharisees are the flesh and the law of the flesh, trying to bind all to the flesh. And the cause of the warning, is not to be re-joined to the Law.

To separate from everyone who you warn twice about something, seems a bit legalistic and I think contradicts the sentiment of the passage, as well as many other statements of Paul.

But then why are these things said? The warning, is the light of the lamp, and the separation is spiritual. I think this is describing separating from the spirit of the world.

But, is 'one and two', self condemned to death (verse 11), or is it distinguishing itself from the requirements to condemn (two or three) under the Law? I think the first one. 


Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh, (one or two), with God as their guide (two or three).

14 And the Lord was greatly angered against Moses, and said, Lo! is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he will surely speak to thee; and, behold, he will come forth to meet thee, and beholding thee he will rejoice within himself.
15 And thou shalt speak to him; and thou shalt put my words into his mouth, and I will open thy mouth and his mouth, and I will instruct you in what ye shall do.
16 And he shall speak for thee to the people, and he shall be thy mouth, and thou shalt be for him in things pertaining to God.
(Exodus 4 Septuagint BST)

Moses is the spirit (that God speaks through) and Aaron is the body (the physically able one needed to accomplish the task), they are called 'brothers', the two are one flesh.

12 And now go and I will open thy mouth, and will instruct thee in what thou shalt say.


40 Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard John and followed Him.
41 He first found his own brother Simon and told him, "We have found the Messiah! " (which means "Anointedcn One"),
42 and he brought Simon to Jesus.
(John 1 HCSB)


'Two or Three'.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them."
(Matthew 18 HCSB)


21 And the Lord visited Anna, and she bore yet three sons, and two daughters. And the child Samuel grew before the Lord.
(1 Samuel 2 Septuagint BST) (Anna=favour?)

33 the numbering of them of the tribe of Manasse, was thirty-two thousand and two hundred.
(Numbers 1 Septuagint BST) (Manasse=forgiveness?)


If the 'one or two' don't listen to the 'third', they quench the Spirit.

4 Ye went into Bethel, and sinned, and ye multiplied sin at Galgala; and ye brought your meat-offerings in the morning, and your tithes every third day.
5 And they read the law without, and called for public professions: proclaim aloud that the children of Israel have loved these things, saith the Lord.
6 And I will give you dullness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet ye returned not to me, saith the Lord.
7 Also I withheld from you the rain three months before the harvest: and I will rain upon one city, and on another city I will not rain: one part shall be rained upon, and the part on which I shall not rain shall be dried up.
8 And the inhabitants of two or three cities shall be gathered to one city to drink water, and they shall not be satisfied: yet ye have not returned to me, saith the Lord.
(Amos 4 Septuagint BST)


God speaks and we should listen, understand and share the love of God, like a lamp.

28 But if there is no interpreter, that person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should evaluate.
30 But if something has been revealed to another person sitting there, the first prophet should be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that everyone may learn and everyone may be encouraged.
32 And the prophets' spirits are under the control of the prophets,
33 since God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
(1 Corinthians 14 HCSB)


The body (6) is the temple of God (20 or 30 gallons), that shares the light.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother told Him, "They don't have any wine."
4 "What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman? " Jesus asked. "My hour has not yet come."
5 "Do whatever He tells you," His mother told the servants.
6 Now six stone water jars had been set there for Jewish purification. Each contained 20 or 30 gallons.
7 "Fill the jars with water," Jesus told them. So they filled them to the brim.
8 Then He said to them, "Now draw some out and take it to the chief servant." And they did.
(John 2 HCSB)


The light will not always be accepted, because it has to be reciprocated. If it is not given in their heavens to receive, it won't be.

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and rebuke him in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 But if he won't listen, take one or two more with you, so that by the testimony of two or three witnesses every fact may be established.
17 If he pays no attention to them, tell the church. But if he doesn't pay attention even to the church, let him be like an unbeliever and a tax collector to you.
18 I assure you: Whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven.
19 Again, I assure you: If two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them."
(Matthew 18 HCSB)


The spirit wars against the flesh, until heaven gives instruction and illumination.

13 Now that same day two of them were on their way to a village called Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem.
14 Together they were discussing everything that had taken place.
15 And while they were discussing and arguing, Jesus Himself came near and began to walk along with them.
16 But they were prevented from recognizing Him.
17 Then He asked them, "What is this dispute that you're having with each other as you are walking? " And they stopped walking and looked discouraged.
...
27 Then beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted for them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
28 They came near the village where they were going, and He gave the impression that He was going farther.
29 But they urged Him: "Stay with us, because it's almost evening, and now the day is almost over." So He went in to stay with them.
(Luke 24 HCSB)


When he speaks to the two, justice blossoms.

11 God has spoken once, and I have heard these two things, that power is of God;
12 and mercy is thine, O Lord; for thou wilt recompense every one according to his works.
(Psalm 62 Septuagint BST)

Order.

23 for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body.
(Ephesians 5 HCSB)


The third, kills the first.

29 Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's consent.
(Matthew 10 HCSB)


But they stone themselves, with the hands of the first witnesses, but also the last (to remove sin).

5 then shalt thou bring out that man, or that woman, and ye shall stone them with stones, and they shall die.
6 He shall die on the testimony of two or three witnesses; a man who is put to death shall not be put to death for one witness.
7 And the hand of the witnesses shall be upon him among the first to put him to death, and the hand of the people at the last; so shalt thou remove the evil one from among yourselves.
(Deuteronomy 17 Septuagint BST)

Not according to the law of Moses, but according to the spirit. Without God, people are blind and can not judge themselves.

4 "Even if I testify about Myself," Jesus replied, "My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I'm going. But you don't know where I come from or where I'm going.
15 You judge by human standards. I judge no one.
16 And if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me judge together.
17 Even in your law it is written that the witness of two men is valid.
18 I am the One who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
(John 8 HCSB)


The spirit lead by the body is death.

4 And I saw all labour, and all the diligent work, that this is a man's envy from his neighbour. This is also vanity and waywardness of spirit.
5 The fool folds his hands together, and eats his own flesh.
6 Better is a handful of rest than two handfuls of trouble and waywardness of spirit.
(Ecclesiastes 4 Septuagint BST)

But without death, there could be no life. All are appointed to die once.

9 Two are better than one, seeing they have a good reward for their labour.
(Ecclesiastes 4 Septuagint BST)


After death comes life, the one left will populate the land.

11 Soon afterward He was on His way to a town called Nain. His disciples and a large crowd were traveling with Him.
12 Just as He neared the gate of the town, a dead man was being carried out. He was his mother's only son, and she was a widow. A large crowd from the city was also with her.
13 When the Lord saw her, He had compassion on her and said, "Don't cry."
14 Then He came up and touched the open coffin, and the pallbearers stopped. And He said, "Young man, I tell you, get up! "
15 The dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother.
16 Then fear came over everyone, and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has risen among us," and "God has visited His people."
(Luke 7 HCSB)

40 When Jesus returned, the crowd welcomed Him, for they were all expecting Him.
41 Just then, a man named Jairus came. He was a leader of the synagogue. He fell down at Jesus' feet and pleaded with Him to come to his house,
42 because he had an only daughter about 12 years old, and she was at death's door.
...
49 While He was still speaking, someone came from the synagogue leader's house, saying, "Your daughter is dead. Don't bother the Teacher anymore."
50 When Jesus heard it, He answered him, "Don't be afraid. Only believe, and she will be made well."
51 After He came to the house, He let no one enter with Him except Peter, John, James, and the child's father and mother (two or three).
52 Everyone was crying and mourning for her. But He said, "Stop crying, for she is not dead but asleep."
53 They started laughing at Him, because they knew she was dead.
54 So He took her by the hand and called out, "Child, get up! "
55 Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then He gave orders that she be given something to eat.
(Luke 8 HCSB)


Tabernacle built to be judged?

15 And thou shalt make the posts of the tabernacle of incorruptible wood.
16 Of ten cubits shalt thou make one post, and the breadth of one post of a cubit and a half.
17 Two joints shalt thou make in one post, answering the one to the other: so shalt thou do to all the posts of the tabernacle.
18 And thou shalt make posts to the tabernacle, twenty posts on the north side.
19 And thou shalt make to the twenty posts forty silver sockets; two sockets to one post on both its sides, and two sockets to the other post on both its sides.
(Exodus 26 Septuagint BST)


Thinking about the two trees, one is the knowledge of 'Good and Evil' (one or two) and the other tree is, the tree of Life (so, two or three). Just some of my thoughts, not saying it is all correct.

Peace     :gimmefive: 

[rosered]

  Love how you break it all down Eddie !!   amazing !

  Yes , sorry about not being clear ,  I meant to say that heaven and earth are  both  witnesses  as a truth .


truth is factual and to me always remains the same  no matter how many times repeated  or how many generations  experience the same  truth it is always   dividing   the heavens from the earth and the temporary from the eternal .

For me it is  bearing both images , as the corruptible one and the incorruptible one as well ..

For me the Holy Spirit  represents  everything that has already been gathered up  already over the ages and  is found in THE LIVING GOD  already  , the works of  Jesus Christ is to present  everything living  now though Him to God the Father  back from the dead     
  HE alone is the LORD of the dead and living after taking away satan's power at the cross over death THAT  accuse and lie falsely against the TRUTH , Being the LORD JESUS CHRIST    , it is when He said  it is finished  , it was the works of Gods grace being sent to save all that was lost . THOUGH HIS BODY ..

As the headship  and authority   is ONE with the Father  and a very powerful  heavenly witness .




 

. I meant to ask if you thought there was a significance to 'two and three', as a pair.

  yes it is as written under the law of Moses  two or 3 witnesses  in Hebrews 10 we have them  judging without mercy 
under that tree of knowledge of good and evil  .

many are still eating of that tree and cannot  over come ''death''  because of that clause  , I go to good and evil is present ! make   your tree good  and its fruit also  GOOD WORKS KNOWN OF THE FATHER , AS JESUS example , or make it corrupt  , to me it is the same scenario of being   hot /on fire for God or being cold as  a dead one , a lukewarm condition is   the Babylonian  state in the last day church . and it is in Her that all the  wrath of God  or to say  His vengeance remains   in the pouring out of all the vials  of suffering  to make us  finally come to God by destroying our false image of GOD  IN OUR MINDS .  And  sense of pride and vanity over all of GODS TRUTH  , We are saved though JESUS CHRIST  , THE GRACE OF GOD , not of ourselves it is the gift of God and not to be despised and trampled upon  . 

  the seeds of destruction remain in the tree of knowledge of good and evil  , planting thoughts in the minds of those still in the corruptible  state  and still in  the judgement  phases  of lessons learned .

dying daily as a root of evil can  crop up in any garden that is not tended too   , we are like that garden  and only given access  to the tree of life when JESUS  FLAMING SWORD     allows an entry  though   HIS mercy ...   

  Just as the WORD OF GOD is the imperishable seed ...The Parable of the Sower
...10He replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
11Now this is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12The seeds along the path are those who hear, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved....


  TO ME IT IS MAKING  THE sacrifice of GODS SON OF NO EFFECT ...    You remain in your state of sinful  self and cannot  come to terms   that CHRIST DIED FOR ALL   and have no mercy or forgiveness   and believe you are saving yourself  though obedience   and that  your works are  righteous

But we know the  LORD says  righteous works  are of GOD  ONLY   and you are the vessel used to display this  in the earth

  Jesus took no credit  for doing the  works  He saw His FATHER  doing and hearing what His Father taught Him to do and why HE WAS SENT WAS TO  DIE  , SO  THE SEED WOULD REMAIN  IN THE EARTH [John 5 ] ... to sprout and shoot forth as more of the goodness of God   in mercy so others might also be saved .

  the false sense of pride of being the elect  is to me   more harder lessons to be learned from the Holy Spirit  , I believe , For those whom  are learning what   the righteousness of God means   is one of humility  and maturity  always  as to being alive in the Body of Christ .   and suffering in the same manner HE DID by taking up our cross also
Matthew 13:18
Consider, then, the parable of the sower:

Mark 4:13
Then Jesus said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables?

Luke 8:12
The seeds along the path are those who hear, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

In Hebrews we have  this law in effect always , just as we have the other law of grace also in effect  ALSO  to me ...

Because  Jesus come to make a short work in righteousness in the earth    , why ? because the wrath of satan  knows his time is short  !
  I think of how short of a  timespan we have being  flesh and blood and its weaknesses  and how satan tempts though our weakness of the flesh   , that God made it that way on purpose   that NONE can ever boast  in their own flesh as to having any power over it , for this is the illusion to me  and the vanity of life
  flesh and blood was never intended  to bear the incorruptible image , But the corruptible one and is only food for the carnal beast/ serpent  to consume   , so seeking to devour  any one whom is in its path   , but it is the Lord whom keeps our path  when we are under HIS RULE and authority   as His own .

A Call to Persevere


...27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. 28 Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?...

Deuteronomy 17:2
If a man or woman among you in one of the towns that the LORD your God gives you is found doing evil in the sight of the LORD your God by transgressing His covenant

Deuteronomy 17:6
On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but he shall not be executed on the testimony of a lone witness.

Deuteronomy 19:15
A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

Hebrews 2:Salvation Confirmed
1We must pay closer attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every transgression and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? This salvation was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,...

Hebrews 12:25
See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if the people did not escape when they refused Him who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven?
 

   Many struggle with the  writings of John  in   1 John  5  but for me I believe this wholeheartedly  !!   let GOD BE TRUE and every man a liar     ...   those whom are in the Spirit of Life already know this as TRUTH  and are free indeed ..
it is a mighty work of  GOD though Jesus Christ  and the Holy Spirit bears witness also .

   

Overcoming the World

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome, 4because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

5Who then overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify:a 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.

God's Testimony about His Son

9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is greater.

For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son.

10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

heaven is a witness and so is the earth in agreement  though it be a dying , as the new heavens and earth are established by GOD HIMSELF   THOUGH THE BODY  OF CHRIST  AS A LIVING  HOLY THING .

Rev 21

I will create a new heaven and earth
There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away") and no longer just gnoseological (Isaiah 65:17: "See, I will create/new heavens and a new earth./The former things will not be remembered,/nor will they come to mind").

I hope this was not all over the place , it is hard to explain , but I JUST BELIEVE GOD  IS ABLE  to fulfill all His desire  and we learn to wait on the LORD to do it ...    :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[guest6667]

Thanks so much RoseRed

For there are three that testify:a 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.

All three of these wash us, but it is the Spirit that fulfils the water and the blood?

It is funny how this thread started based on the concern of physical hearing, and has come full circle to the truth of a 'knowing' (not intellectual, but personal, receptive) hearing.

It would be silly of me to say that, I will keep your post as a regular reminder, no, I will try and remember, and look to the one you are testifying of, always.

                                       :Pray:      :Pray:      :Pray:   

[rosered]

  I would just have to say simply  Eddie , that   the Holy Spirit is teaching us  LOVE , it seems that no man could posses the love that  God wanted  mankind to know   except though His  one of a kind Son  , and that is the love of God expressed  though mercy and forgiveness  to the point of death itself .
and than to swallow up all that death  in Victory  in Himself though a consuming fire  to purify any and all corruption and decay

  we become fiery spirits , sparks of love that flies in the midst of  A WORD THAT COMES OUT OF HIS MOUTH , cleansed and holy before GOD    as a fiery Law
We have examples  and clues  of how Isaiah's  speech was purified from the alter of God by fire 
and How Jesus eyes are ablaze  and a fire that comes out of their mouth by the two witnesses    in Rev 11

   by Him and for Him and though Him nothing was made that was not made His Word is truth and it is the Spirit of truth that  to me are the two witnesses     that are given to those whom Love God and are called according to His purpose and have been all along ..  He holds everything in HIS OWN BODY  to me , the dead and the living  to the end  to be made  complete

Col 1


15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
  these  are heating up the   earthly elements  and the dross is being eliminated   and consumed , to be prepared for  healing  for   the tree of Life  .
an eternal tree that has no end in the garden of GOD .

Paul is speaking a warning to the last day  lukewarm church  = or   people in Col 2  , here we see the power of God  though Christ our heavenly witness  testimony by the very Spirit of truth and prophecy , this anointing from the HOLY SPIRIT  speak  to those whom by faith believe  and know and will carry out Gods  mission  by destroying the evil  so the good will remain and be perfected or completed in  Christ body . 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+2&version=HCSB

I do believe this  and have since learning of it though the Holy Spirit  teaching anyone whom is willing to learn of the knowledge of God , it has brought great peace  and comfort in knowing GOD HAS THIS COMPLETELY  taken care of

it is going to be bad for the evil  but awesome for the good  found in every man ,  healing is a part of the plan in the end
for we suffer  one way or the other  for both , as it is  for doing good  in adversity and doing evil  depending on how much humbling  is required  to destroy all forms of  pride of life .  LOVE  must and will remain   , those forgiven much will love much ..

    Colossians 3:13 – Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. Matthew 6:12 – From the Lord's Prayer – "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Colossians has been an eye opener and an awaking   for this soul  for sure .everyone will be scattered into their own places to learn of the LORD and be Taught by the Holy Spirit of truth by the Word of Truth .   the resistance will be crushed by the weight of it all .

for me it is the revealing of Christ  in a true Light of Gods  power of Love over all the evil works ever done , with lessons learned . hard ones as well as  healing comfort after . every knee will bow and tongue confess to Him  for certain .

For me the fear of the Lord is the beginning of  Holy Wisdom and the end will be the LOVE  perfected and completed  though the experiences with  many  trials and errors  as we are given understanding  to know all things .    I do not think by any means   that once we physically die we are done learning  and experiencing God  , as it is now we are just breathing   and  have not yet begun to LIVE .   :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:

[guest6667]

Ephesians 4:32 (NIV)
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

When I read this (am a bit tired), I saw “in, ‘Christ God’ forgave me. But it is clearly saying, God in Christ forgave you. But,  seeing God as a separate entity, or as a title, or just however you see God, changes this verse. It could be, God through Christ, or Christ as part of God, forgives you.

The Son shares the will of the Father, so it seems a little odd to say, he forgave me when he delivered the Father’s forgiveness, but equally paradoxical for him not to forgive us.

χαρίζομαι (charizomai)
1. To say or do a pleasing thing for, gain favour with, please, to make oneself pleasing, comply with. (e.g. to be pleasing to her husband)
2. To please, indulge, yield to, to give in to
3. To grant, allow, offer, to give, hand over, to pardon, to forgive, condone
4. Give in abundance 

Be kind and tender-hearted to one another, showing favour to each other as God, in Christ, made us favourable.

Maybe the positive, ‘show favour’, illuminates more than the negative, ‘to forgive’? Kindness and compassion, in my mind, are positive actions of favour, not negative reactions like forgiveness, so it would follow that we are being encouraged to be actively good to people, rather than passively tolerant. "Show favour to those who mistreat you", makes more sense to me than, to forgive them. Because in the first example, the two actions mirror each other. 

I’m probably saying something obvious or silly.

Truth has been revealed, at different times, to me, to be a much simpler understanding, than what I had previously understood. It is more amazing for God to hide the simple, than to hide the overwhelmingly complicated that only Plato could have ever grasped, in the first place. Just as the church has added to the word of God, in hearing God, God strips me of my flesh, as I have added dirt to his love.

If the negative view of life is, dying to live with God, then the positive is, learning love, to live with God. 

Numbers 6
22 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
23 Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, Thus ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying to them,
24 The Lord bless thee and keep thee;
25 the Lord make his face to shine upon thee, and have mercy upon thee;
26 the Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I the Lord will bless them.

Jesus blesses us and puts his name on us, (forgiven in Christ or blessed in Christ?).
:grave:  :dsunny:


edit. Of course we have forgiveness (ἄφεσις aphesis) of sins, letting go of sins, also in Christ. But this is like the first understanding of God, the fear. compared to the second, the love. IMO