Democracy or Theocracy?

[whyiloveitaly.com]

How is it that the ones who claim that "Jesus is Lord in their lives" also support democracy? Isn't that like sweet water and bitter coming from the same fountain?
Isn't a Christian by nature a Theocrat?

I don't get it..

Love to all,
Brian

[Sarah]

On a personal level being led my God (theocracy) is wonderful...but on a government level...'theocracy' makes me cringe.  I think of the Roman Catholic Church, North Korea, and countless others.  Maybe good on paper, but in practice Ahhhhh!

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi Sarah!

I agree with you about the negatives. I'm just wondering if that means that we're supposed to reject theocracy because of past corruption..?

Shouldn't believers be the first ones to embrace theocracy? Instead, we usually embrace democracy!

Bri

[Reverend G]

One need only look to the middle east to see the real daily problems of theocracy.  Imagine that with all the different flavors of Christianity around.  I guess we need to keep on "rendering unto caesar".

[whyiloveitaly.com]

I guess my real question is, as believers in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, should we be involved in democracy?

Bri

[Molly]

I vote for a Republic, but you didn't give me that choice.

Fortunately, it was given to me as my birthright.

Unfortunately, we risk losing it because no one knows what they have.

Regarding a theocracy:  I would be delighted only if the government is on the shoulders of the prince of Peace.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi Molly!

People ask me if I vote. I say no. The say, you don't? I tell them, no.

Respect for government? Yes.
Active in elections and government activity? No.

I have one King, who lives in me. (So do you!)

I also do not believe in birthrights nor human rights. This thing about "rights" is founded in pride and self-protection. It does not seem Christ-like to me.

Love to all,
Bri

[Molly]

So you don't believe we have God-given rights to life and liberty, Bri?

Just checking.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi again! (This is fun, isn't it? Where I am it's about 5:15pm. What time is it there?)

Well, if you're speaking about rights such as in the Constitution, no. Many people have no rights at all. So this is an illusion. -Perhaps many in the world cling to this idea of "rights" because they doesn't know that their Creator loves them and cares for them! They are terrified.

God will supply all our needs, however. (Yours, too!)

bri

[Molly]

17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. --2 Cor 3


John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

[warmthofthesun]

I think the two (government and politics) should be completely separate. Trust me, Jesus doesn't want a theocracy in force by man-made government. Government can't change people's hearts, that is for God. Jesus' kingdom doesn't come through physical force, he takes abode in people and they willingly join him. Government, especially tyrannical ones, work in the complete opposite way.

So in faith, I try to follow Christ, while in politics, I tend to want people to have the most liberty possible to make their own choices. Government force is not going to make the world a better place.

[SeekerSA]

:goodpost: warmthofthesun

[jabcat]

:goodpost: warmthofthesun

I agree.  That's pretty much the summation of my position. 

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Maybe I didn't explain myself so well. Please let me try again..

I agree that man cannot force his neighbor to change.

That's not my idea of theocracy.

My thought is that every believer who comes to a saving trust in Jesus should by nature be theocratic!
That's why it bewilders me that believers vote, go to caucases, call themselves "democratic" or "republican." We should be looking to our King for direction! That's what being a Christian is all about!!!

(While of course honoring whomever we live under, whether president, earthly king, dictator, etc. We are, after all, called to peace.)


I just don't get it.

Bri

[Reverend G]

If a government headed by the Theos were possible, I'd be all for it.  Until then, humans screw up laws enough without bringing their own personal thological views into the ring.

[Sarah]

I guess I don't understand why it's all or nothing.  Why can't we be Theocratic personally, and democratic on a governmental level?  Aren't we the 'hands' by which God performs His purposes?

When I hear democratic...I think of a government by the people, and for the people, and elected by the people.  Aside from an idealistic theocracy where God supernaturally sets up an outward kingdom, we work with what we got.  Have you ever thought maybe the going from a 'democracy' to a theocracy could be a gradual change?  And if His hands refuse to participate it may take a little longer.

When you say we don't have these rights, that God gives us these things through Christ instead...it sounds like semantics.  So you don't think a person should be able to be free unless they are Christians?

Anywho,  what is a Republic?  :mblush:

[jabcat]

My thought is that every believer who comes to a saving trust in Jesus should by nature be theocratic!
That's why it bewilders me that believers vote, go to caucases, call themselves "democratic" or "republican." We should be looking to our King for direction! That's what being a Christian is all about!!!

(While of course honoring whomever we live under, whether president, earthly king, dictator, etc. We are, after all, called to peace.)

Bri

Understand and agree.  Was thinking this morning about the "moral majority" of recent years...not saying they were wrong about everything, however, as you said, we can't force holiness, and if not careful, can begin to resemble the Pharisees.  Again though our very nature as believers should be looking to our King, not fighting within man-made governments...how's that really much different than "church" denominations?  God's blessing.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Democracy, as I understand it, is power to the people.
Theocracy, as I understand it, is power to God.

Why do "Christians" participate in a human-based system when they say verbally that they trust only in God?

Again, I don't vote. Americans are allowed to not vote, so I don't.

It just seems so obvious. Yet people seem to think that since theocracy has not been successful that it shouldn't be adhered to.

If the Kingdom can come, isn't it right to expect it?

Bri

[Molly]

The American system of government is a Republic--not a democracy.

The founders, understanding who is god of this world, took pains to bind the government in every direction so that it would not infringe on the rights of the people--that is, on the liberty and life of the people.

Thus, they  set up the closest thing you can get to heaven on earth, bar the second coming of Christ.

Now, if you want to sell your birthright for a bowl of pottage, that's another story.


Hebrews 12:16
See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

[Molly]

Anywho,  what is a Republic?  :mblush:

We are a Republic, so it's good for you to start investigating that form of government because it is what you have.

You can start with this joke:

A democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.

In a republic, the sheep has a gun.



"At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic if you can keep it" responded Franklin."

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Gun or not, I don't buy it.

All that I can see is that a Christian should not adhere to the governments of this world. As Christians, we have our King. Shall we follow Him, or the leaders of this world?

Perhaps the closest thing I can see that would be a Christian government would be a Christian commune. Communal living seems to be what we should be hoping in, not elections, caucases, rallys and the like.

Love to all,
Bri

[Molly]

I thought you wanted a 'theocracy.'  Now you want 'communal living'?

Well, to each his own--as long as you don't force it on me.

Maybe you could start a cult with a theocratic leader?

That would be like--David Koresh.


Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Theocracy means God is the leader. God is concerned about the whole, not the individual.

Can you please explain what David Koresh has to do with communal living?

Bri

[Molly]

well, just to be clear, theocracy is a system of government where the leaders are supposedly divinely guided.  Since I know that satan considers himself god, it seems to me that he would be the first one to step up for that position.  Until Jesus returns, we are dealing with men, therefore, I prefer my Republic which binds men in every direction from stealing my life and liberty, as I know satan is wont to do.


As for David Koresh, he ran a little version of a communal theocracy, with him as the head of the commune.

And, btw, God is very much concerned with the individual.  He has numbered all the hairs on your head and has a plan for YOU and me and every one of us.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

They have a saying here in Italy: No one is as deaf as he who doesn't want to hear.

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying, Molly.

Does anyone here understand what I'm trying to get across..?

Love to all,
Bri