How is it that the ones who claim that "Jesus is Lord in their lives" also support democracy? Isn't that like sweet water and bitter coming from the same fountain?
Isn't a Christian by nature a Theocrat?
I don't get it..
Love to all,
Brian
On a personal level being led my God (theocracy) is wonderful...but on a government level...'theocracy' makes me cringe. I think of the Roman Catholic Church, North Korea, and countless others. Maybe good on paper, but in practice Ahhhhh!
Hi Sarah!
I agree with you about the negatives. I'm just wondering if that means that we're supposed to reject theocracy because of past corruption..?
Shouldn't believers be the first ones to embrace theocracy? Instead, we usually embrace democracy!
Bri
One need only look to the middle east to see the real daily problems of theocracy. Imagine that with all the different flavors of Christianity around. I guess we need to keep on "rendering unto caesar".
I guess my real question is, as believers in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, should we be involved in democracy?
Bri
I vote for a Republic, but you didn't give me that choice.
Fortunately, it was given to me as my birthright.
Unfortunately, we risk losing it because no one knows what they have.
Regarding a theocracy: I would be delighted only if the government is on the shoulders of the prince of Peace.
Hi Molly!
People ask me if I vote. I say no. The say, you don't? I tell them, no.
Respect for government? Yes.
Active in elections and government activity? No.
I have one King, who lives in me. (So do you!)
I also do not believe in birthrights nor human rights. This thing about "rights" is founded in pride and self-protection. It does not seem Christ-like to me.
Love to all,
Bri
So you don't believe we have God-given rights to life and liberty, Bri?
Just checking.
Hi again! (This is fun, isn't it? Where I am it's about 5:15pm. What time is it there?)
Well, if you're speaking about rights such as in the Constitution, no. Many people have no rights at all. So this is an illusion. -Perhaps many in the world cling to this idea of "rights" because they doesn't know that their Creator loves them and cares for them! They are terrified.
God will supply all our needs, however. (Yours, too!)
bri
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. --2 Cor 3
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
I think the two (government and politics) should be completely separate. Trust me, Jesus doesn't want a theocracy in force by man-made government. Government can't change people's hearts, that is for God. Jesus' kingdom doesn't come through physical force, he takes abode in people and they willingly join him. Government, especially tyrannical ones, work in the complete opposite way.
So in faith, I try to follow Christ, while in politics, I tend to want people to have the most liberty possible to make their own choices. Government force is not going to make the world a better place.
:goodpost: warmthofthesun
Quote from: SeekerSA on February 22, 2008, 08:08:47 AM
:goodpost: warmthofthesun
I agree. That's pretty much the summation of my position.
Maybe I didn't explain myself so well. Please let me try again..
I agree that man cannot force his neighbor to change.
That's not my idea of theocracy.
My thought is that every believer who comes to a saving trust in Jesus should by nature be theocratic!
That's why it bewilders me that believers vote, go to caucases, call themselves "democratic" or "republican." We should be looking to our King for direction! That's what being a Christian is all about!!!
(While of course honoring whomever we live under, whether president, earthly king, dictator, etc. We are, after all, called to peace.)
I just don't get it.
Bri
If a government headed by the Theos were possible, I'd be all for it. Until then, humans screw up laws enough without bringing their own personal thological views into the ring.
I guess I don't understand why it's all or nothing. Why can't we be Theocratic personally, and democratic on a governmental level? Aren't we the 'hands' by which God performs His purposes?
When I hear democratic...I think of a government by the people, and for the people, and elected by the people. Aside from an idealistic theocracy where God supernaturally sets up an outward kingdom, we work with what we got. Have you ever thought maybe the going from a 'democracy' to a theocracy could be a gradual change? And if His hands refuse to participate it may take a little longer.
When you say we don't have these rights, that God gives us these things through Christ instead...it sounds like semantics. So you don't think a person should be able to be free unless they are Christians?
Anywho, what is a Republic? :mblush:
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 22, 2008, 10:07:05 AM
My thought is that every believer who comes to a saving trust in Jesus should by nature be theocratic!
That's why it bewilders me that believers vote, go to caucases, call themselves "democratic" or "republican." We should be looking to our King for direction! That's what being a Christian is all about!!!
(While of course honoring whomever we live under, whether president, earthly king, dictator, etc. We are, after all, called to peace.)
Bri
Understand and agree. Was thinking this morning about the "moral majority" of recent years...not saying they were wrong about everything, however, as you said, we can't force holiness, and if not careful, can begin to resemble the Pharisees. Again though our very nature as believers should be looking to our King, not fighting within man-made governments...how's that really much different than "church" denominations? God's blessing.
Democracy, as I understand it, is power to the people.
Theocracy, as I understand it, is power to God.
Why do "Christians" participate in a human-based system when they say verbally that they trust only in God?
Again, I don't vote. Americans are allowed to not vote, so I don't.
It just seems so obvious. Yet people seem to think that since theocracy has not been successful that it shouldn't be adhered to.
If the Kingdom can come, isn't it right to expect it?
Bri
The American system of government is a Republic--not a democracy.
The founders, understanding who is god of this world, took pains to bind the government in every direction so that it would not infringe on the rights of the people--that is, on the liberty and life of the people.
Thus, they set up the closest thing you can get to heaven on earth, bar the second coming of Christ.
Now, if you want to sell your birthright for a bowl of pottage, that's another story.
Hebrews 12:16
See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
Quote from: Sarah on February 22, 2008, 07:06:52 PM
Anywho, what is a Republic? :mblush:
We are a Republic, so it's good for you to start investigating that form of government because it is what you have.
You can start with this joke:
A democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.
In a republic, the sheep has a gun.
"At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic if you can keep it" responded Franklin."
Gun or not, I don't buy it.
All that I can see is that a Christian should not adhere to the governments of this world. As Christians, we have our King. Shall we follow Him, or the leaders of this world?
Perhaps the closest thing I can see that would be a Christian government would be a Christian commune. Communal living seems to be what we should be hoping in, not elections, caucases, rallys and the like.
Love to all,
Bri
I thought you wanted a 'theocracy.' Now you want 'communal living'?
Well, to each his own--as long as you don't force it on me.
Maybe you could start a cult with a theocratic leader?
That would be like--David Koresh.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
Theocracy means God is the leader. God is concerned about the whole, not the individual.
Can you please explain what David Koresh has to do with communal living?
Bri
well, just to be clear, theocracy is a system of government where the leaders are supposedly divinely guided. Since I know that satan considers himself god, it seems to me that he would be the first one to step up for that position. Until Jesus returns, we are dealing with men, therefore, I prefer my Republic which binds men in every direction from stealing my life and liberty, as I know satan is wont to do.
As for David Koresh, he ran a little version of a communal theocracy, with him as the head of the commune.
And, btw, God is very much concerned with the individual. He has numbered all the hairs on your head and has a plan for YOU and me and every one of us.
They have a saying here in Italy: No one is as deaf as he who doesn't want to hear.
I don't think you are understanding what I am saying, Molly.
Does anyone here understand what I'm trying to get across..?
Love to all,
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 25, 2008, 05:19:00 PM
Does anyone here understand what I'm trying to get across..?
Love to all,
Bri
Are you in essence saying "Pray for our leaders/government, render to Caesar...". But don't become entangled with the world (systems), ...."looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10)? That's my view. Keeping our eyes on the prize...and it won't be forced, it will be lived and given according to God's will/plan. God's blessing.
My picture of things is such:
Theocracy is God leading man. Each man is to be led by the Spirit of God. Each one of us has abilities, talents, and gifts which enable the whole to function.
The man who believes in Christ follows the Sheperd, not a politician. Politicians, as far as what I've seen in the world, don't follow the Sheperd because they don't hear His voice.
That's why I don't vote. God is my King; He has shown Himself to me and if I choose to follow another I know that I am not following Him.
That is why I am interested in communes. Molly can't understand what I'm saying because she is looking at man-based systems.
When we get our eyes on Jesus, our love comes alive, and we are interested in the welfare of our brother and sister. Politicians all interested in themselves. I have not seen and do not expect to see regenerated leaders. Because true leaders are servants. Where are the servants today?
Theocracy is a group of people who listen to the voice of God. If your eyes are on Jesus, you cannot be deceived by man-made systems.
Bri
Got'cha, and I agree. I would have to think about the communes part. If it were truly a work of God, based on truth, led by the Spirit, I would look at it. I think there's been so much craziness in the name of God, and so often associated with communal living, it's probably a little scary for many. Not that it would be wrong if truly God-led. Maybe would work for some, not for others. And no, these world systems aren't going to be OK until God fixes them...and He may work through us in some ways to do that, I don't know. In the meantime, we are to follow Him, wherever that leads and whatever He asks us to do. God's blessing.
Yes, and maybe there are others here too who understand what I'm saying. In fact, I haven't discovered anything new. There have been many Christian communes created in the States, and if I move back at some point, I think I'd seriously look into living in one. Because although they aren't perfect, I find them more in line with what the Spirit of God has shown me than what I see in present day governments.
What scares me is to meet believers who promote capitialism, investing in stock markets, capital punishment and gun possession (while at the same time protesting against abortion...!).
It's just weird.
Here in Italy, even though most people are catholics, and not "practising," 9 out of 10 will tell you that capital punishment and owning guns is not right. (And they aren't even regenerated!!")
bri
Quote from: jabcat on February 26, 2008, 11:09:32 AM
I would have to think about the communes part. If it were truly a work of God, based on truth, led by the Spirit, I would look at it.
Same here...
Community living used to be a fascination of mine. I
have lived communally and semi- communally and there was always too much control of man and not enough being led of the Spirit of God. I also know many former Hutterite and Amish people who tried to live semi- communally by set rules and let me tell you, we could all tell some really ugly stories. :mshock: There always ends up being a man in charge who doesn't handle that charge well and people end up living by laws instead of love.
I think whenever we try to duplicate something that seemed to work for others instead of truly being led of the Lord for our own lives, we can get into a whole different batch of problems than the ones we're trying to steer clear from.
I'm not saying that there isn't a group that has "successfully" lived in some sort of communal way, I just haven't seen or heard of it but instead I've consistently seen the opposite. :HeartThrob:
My :2c:
Hopeful:
I'm glad you pitched in here because you have lived the experience.
My question to you is: is the fact that some people fall into fleshly desires within the communal setting a reason to stop living it? Wouldn't that be the same as Christians needing to leave their faith because of the failings of Christendom?
I think it is a good way to live. At the same time, I don't negate the imperfections in it. However, those imperfections don't mean that I have to turn to other forms of government which are even more corrupt! It just means I have to work harder at walking in love and peace with my neighbor. And living communally is I believe a good Christian place to start.
In some ways, I admire the Amish more than the average "mainstream churches!"
bri
I think I'm hearing what you're saying, and I'm rejecting it.
There will be a 'theocracy,' I believe, on the return of Jesus.
And Jesus will be the head of the government.
Until then, our government is run by men, and this world is run by satan.
I feel I have the best govt right now--a Republic--which makes allowances for that fact.
One can certainly live communally within a Republic, in small groups, if that is their choice.
That's why I mentioned Koresh--he led a theocratic commune.
Molly:
My world isn't run by satan.
Love,
Bri
Neither is mine, Bri.
But the one I live in--is.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 26, 2008, 03:55:29 PM
Hopeful:
I'm glad you pitched in here because you have lived the experience.
My question to you is: is the fact that some people fall into fleshly desires within the communal setting a reason to stop living it?
No, the Lord has us do some hard things sometimes. The key for
me is to do what the Lord is leading me to do.
:HeartThrob:
Molly:
Isn't it strange how we see the world so differently? For you, it is run by satan. For me, it is run by God!
You see God as ruling when He comes back to earth. I see God as ruling in the hearts of people today! (theocracy)
You see external governments as plausible. I see internal government as the only solution!
When you think of communes, you think of Koresh. I think of the equality of man, part of God's plan.
Oh, well...!
Love,
Bri
...all men are created equal...
Our founders thought that, too.
I don't disagree as much as you think I do.
I know the world is run by satan because I can see clearly the evil men do and it rips my heart out every day.
But, I also know that God rules in the hearts of many and that number is actually increasing in front of my eyes.
I pray for the increase--in that, I also agree, the only solution is internal.
As for Koresh, I find nothing wrong with his commune per se---his was a theocratic commune and you said you wanted a theocracy and a commune---so there you go. Because a theocracy implies a leader who claims to be divinely inspired and if that is what you want, you will get leaders like Koresh, or worse, much worse, Huckabee lol.
But, I am happy with my Republic, and hope others will understand what they have, a wonderful gift from God, and not sell it to satan for a bowl of pottage.
A theocracy means that it is God who is the leader. You keep referring to men as leaders. But I'm talking about GOD doing the leading. Look to Jesus, and HE will lead you!
As believers, that is what we should be doing: following our Leader. Not getting caught up in man's business.
By the way, America was built on blood and deception. The idea that "anyone who wants to can make it big" is a lie. I saw it on the streets everyday. And I want no part of that lie.
Bri
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 26, 2008, 11:01:05 PM
A theocracy means that it is God who is the leader. You keep referring to men as leaders. But I'm talking about GOD doing the leading. Look to Jesus, and HE will lead you!
As believers, that is what we should be doing: following our Leader. Not getting caught up in man's business.
By the way, America was built on blood and deception. The idea that "anyone who wants to can make it big" is a lie. I saw it on the streets everyday. And I want no part of that lie.
Bri
Again, since it must be played out in this world, a theocracy is played out by men who claim to be divinely inspired. And, then, what do you end up with? David Koresh if you are lucky, the Inquisition if you are not.
Yes there are many lies about America, but our original Constitution is not one of them. You will miss it when it's gone--if you can't keep it.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross"
Molly:
I really wish you could understand what I am saying.
Bri
When one comes to Christ, it is theocracy through democracy.
"Come unto me all you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest."
When he sets you free, it becomes democracy through theocracy.
"He who believes in the son is free indeed."
It in fact is both. There doesn't have to be an either\or in God because with him all things are possible.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on February 27, 2008, 11:16:16 AM
Molly:
I really wish you could understand what I am saying.
Bri
well, I'm not sure I'm misunderstanding you. I'm trying to understand. Don't you yearn for what we all yearn for?
Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.Rev 20
6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Here we have Christ reigning with his priests for one thousand years.
Is that the 'theocracy' you long for?
But Mike Huckabee, who must surely be a pathological liar since he lied to millions of people on national tv, is not Christ, no matter how much he might pretend to be.
There is a gap still between man and God.
Well, to answer both posts, I would say that theocracy means that God is who we follow. That means that no other form of government is desirable. Man can invent lots of ways to do things, but they all fall short of God's direction.
Personally, I'm not looking for a leader here or there that will suddenly appear. My Leader is already in my heart, and I wonder why many believers today run here and there to listen to people who they think will lead them. Christ in us will lead us when we hear His voice. Isn't that what Christianity is all about?
Bri
:flamebreath:
Quote from: Molly on February 26, 2008, 06:13:51 PM
I think I'm hearing what you're saying, and I'm rejecting it.
There will be a 'theocracy,' I believe, on the return of Jesus.
And Jesus will be the head of the government.
Until then, our government is run by men, and this world is run by satan.
I feel I have the best govt right now--a Republic--which makes allowances for that fact.
One can certainly live communally within a Republic, in small groups, if that is their choice.
That's why I mentioned Koresh--he led a theocratic commune.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Reverend Jim Jones is another example
of run a away commune, years ago
i was acquainted with someone who
just barely managed to escape the religious clutches of Jim Jones right before his Church went to Guyana for a supposed place of retreat from this world so they could live in a theocratic commune apart from the worldly system and then came the Jones town
masacre.
Fire Walker
Yes, but it's not really a realistic point.
A theocracy with the nature of God leading us for our betterment is one thing.
A theocracy with 1 person and their carnal nature would be terrible. It is the root of egomaniacs, dictators and despots and history is full of it.
Theocracy will only work when the works of man and the carnal is destroyed. Until then, we should do the best we can.
Democracy is also corrupt, but there are ususally some checks and balances built in. A theocracy would have none. Or have you forgotten 'Il Duce'"?
:punish: :banana: :doh:
I think all human government is corrupted by money, and there won't be a righteous government until Christ returns. He will rule until "the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (1 Corinthians 15:24)
I only care to contribute this to the discussion:
DEMOCRAZY
Sometimes, one word says it all.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 01, 2013, 03:38:41 AM
I only care to contribute this to the discussion:
DEMOCRAZY
Sometimes, one word says it all.
Aint it the truth! :thumbsup:
God offered the Israelites choices. 12 judges, but the people desired a king just like the pagans to rule over them. God was not pleased with this choice, but through democracy the will of the people prevailed over God to set up a theocracy.
Quote from: thinktank on November 04, 2013, 12:15:02 PM
God offered the Israelites choices. 12 judges, but the people desired a king just like the pagans to rule over them. God was not pleased with this choice, but through democracy the will of the people prevailed over God to set up a theocracy.
Does anyone or anything prevail over our god, Yahweh?
Quote from: jbertonbounds on November 04, 2013, 07:09:31 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 04, 2013, 12:15:02 PM
God offered the Israelites choices. 12 judges, but the people desired a king just like the pagans to rule over them. God was not pleased with this choice, but through democracy the will of the people prevailed over God to set up a theocracy.
Does anyone or anything prevail over our god, Yahweh?
No. But I am beginning to realize how much influence man has in his influence over this earth, especially anointed people of God.