Read this about SHEOL in the blue Bible, and...

[chester-blowfold]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_113.cfm

Looks like sheol could be hell?

[rosered]

  Hi Chester ,
  I used  to  question  that , but I realized  that now I was missing  a very important  work of Jesus Christ , His sacrifice [Lamb of God ]  for sin, JESUS CHRIST  takes away the sins of the whole world   !! 1 John 2 ;2  John 1 ;29

  You will find that in the old testament
  the power of the cross of Jesus Christ [it is finished ] !!  declaring the Lord  himself !!  and His cross was to finish  and destroy  the works of the devil and that was to hold anyone in death /hell / sheol   the grave    JESUS CHRIST IS IN POWER NOW    HE IS THE RESURRECTION LIFE ...  fully and totally till he is subjected also lastly before God be all in all   1 Cor 15

  swallowed up death in victory !!!!!!!!!!


World English Bible
He has swallowed up death forever! The Lord Yahweh will wipe away tears from off all faces. He will take the reproach of his people away from off all the earth, for Yahweh has spoken it.

Young's Literal Translation
He hath swallowed up death in victory, And wiped hath the Lord Jehovah, The tear from off all faces, And the reproach of His people He turneth aside from off all the earth, For Jehovah hath spoken.

Isaiah 25:8

Geneva Study Bible
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he remove from all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

He will take away all opportunity for sorrow and fill his with perfect joy, Rev 7:17,21:4.Isaiah 25:8


   1 COR 15 

The Order of Resurrection
...27For "God has put everything under His feet."

Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him.

28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him,

so that God may be all in all.

29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?

If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?...

We are in a time now  when many new and beautiful revelations  of Jesus Christ are being  made known  openly  that were hidden from our eyes  , IT to me is  the  truth  and I believe it !!!    I hope this plants a seed of the Word in your heart also !

  The Light has come  as God gives the increase........  shouts of grace , grace  my :2c:  Zech 4 ;7 The Vision of the Lampstand and Olive Trees  !!!


...6So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD[/b] of Hosts.

7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain.

Then he will bring forth the capstone accompanied by shouts of 'Grace, grace to it!'" 8Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,...

God bless you  always   

[chester-blowfold]

Sorry, I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there. Sorry!

[rosered]

Sorry, I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there. Sorry!

  I just am trying to say  when you realize the power of the Cross of Jesus Christ  , it will become so much easier to understand  that death is being swallowed up in victory  , not what we have done , but what GOD has done for us though His  one of a kind son ........  salvation is of God the gifts of   His  mercy & grace   are  unchanging  and certain , we are confident in God  , not in ourselves  , but in the Lord ..
I hope this is more clear  and straight forward for you Chester  , God    bless you .

[Patinak]

A couple of things struck me about the article.

His opening statement:

"Humans have both a physical and spiritual nature. When a person dies those two natures separate. The body goes to the grave. We will now address the question as to what happens to the departed spirit." (goes to Sheol)

and then at the end of the article,

""Grave" is probably the best English word to translate Sheol." 

Sounds like what he is saying is that the body goes to the grave, and the departed spirit goes to the grave.

I thought the author did a good job of quoting scripture in his descriptions of Sheol all through the article, until he got to the end, where he makes his doctrinal statement about Hell:

"Wicked Will Leave Sheol
Sheol is also a temporary place for the wicked dead. After the resurrection and final judgment, the wicked will be sent to their ultimate destination - hell."

Aside from making his assumptions about the righteous and the wicked in the afterlife, I thought it was a good article.

One of our members (Lazarus Short) did a book by book study of Hell, you might want to check it out.  It is easiest to search on the forum here: https://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

Pat

[chester-blowfold]

Pat, that's the way I read it. He started off so well and then destroyed his good works by bringing hell into it...something hellers can use and abuse others with.

[chester-blowfold]

Sorry, I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there. Sorry!

  I just am trying to say  when you realize the power of the Cross of Jesus Christ  , it will become so much easier to understand  that death is being swallowed up in victory  , not what we have done , but what GOD has done for us though His  one of a kind son ........  salvation is of God the gifts of   His  mercy & grace   are  unchanging  and certain , we are confident in God  , not in ourselves  , but in the Lord ..
I hope this is more clear  and straight forward for you Chester  , God    bless you .

Sort of understand where you're coming from, but we're not talking death, we're talking hell.

[rosered]

Sorry, I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there. Sorry!

  I just am trying to say  when you realize the power of the Cross of Jesus Christ  , it will become so much easier to understand  that death is being swallowed up in victory  , not what we have done , but what GOD has done for us though His  one of a kind son ........  salvation is of God the gifts of   His  mercy & grace   are  unchanging  and certain , we are confident in God  , not in ourselves  , but in the Lord ..
I hope this is more clear  and straight forward for you Chester  , God    bless you .

Sort of understand where you're coming from, but we're not talking death, we're talking hell.

  I believe hell is  describing  the same  word as hell  as  being the  grave or death  and even pit in the old testament ,   to me


In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times, and as "the grave" 31 times.

Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.

Modern translations typically render Sheol as "the grave", "the pit", or "death" Abaddon. 

[marie glen]

He lost me at "departed spirit" ..but I'm going back to read more anyway.. as that wasn't  your question. :gsmile:

[marie glen]

site

The Unseen Realm Of The Dead

Sheol generally means the unseen realm of the dead, the present state of death. Both the godly and ungodly go to Sheol in this sense of the term. When used in this way, there is no idea of a place of judgment or condemnation. It is, for example, the place where the righteous Jacob would go.

All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he [Jacob] refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I go down to the grave [Sheol] to my son." So his father wept for him (Genesis 37:35).

Sheol was also the place where sinners would end up.

But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave [Sheol], then you will know that these people have treated the LORD with contempt (Numbers 16:30).

In common speech this refers to the grave - not the literal burying place of the dead but rather the realm of the death. The New International Version normally translates Sheol as "grave." It is usually with the sense of the realm of the dead.

I totally disagree. Jacob went to the literal grave.. anything else to me, is an extension or projecting due to pre-belief, an adding to.

My dead loved ones are, imo, in the grave (peacefully dozing) where they "know nothing", hopefully not languishing somewhere with others who have been languishing for centuries even millennia..

"It is given ONCE unto man to die. And then the judgment" - i believe  collective, not each ones judgment day at death .. i've  never  seen that in the scripture.. but maybe I've missed it..

Yet I don't know how these verses are understood the way he's understanding them..

...But maybe he'll clarify how grave means one thing now and another thing later..

Our bones are scattered at the mouth of the grave [Sheol], as when one plows and breaks up the earth (Psalm 141:7).

Jacob said.

But he said, "My son shall not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he alone is left. If harm should come to him on the journey that you are to make, you would bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to Sheol" (Genesis 42:38).

In this instance, Sheol could refer either to the actual grave or merely the realm of the dead.

:dontknow: I'm not seeing the "difference"

Sheol is a place of spiritual death, or separation from God.

Let death come upon them; let them go down alive to Sheol; for evil is in their homes and in their hearts (Psalm 55:15).

Insatiable Appetite

Sheol has an appetite that cannot be satisfied.

Sheol and Destruction are never full; so the eyes of humanity are never satisfied . . . There are three things that are never satisfied, four things never say, 'It is enough: Sheol' (Proverbs 27:20; 30:15,16).

Isaiah wrote.

Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself and opened its mouth beyond measure; their glory and their multitude and their pomp, and the one who is jubilant shall descend into it (Isaiah 5:14)

The prophet Habakkuk said.

Because he enlarges his desire as Sheol, and he is like death and cannot be satisfied (Habakkuk 2:5).

Why can't these be read as also the grave? The true companion to death. They sound like the grave to me..

"God alone is immortal".. 2 Tim.6:16. And "the dead know nothing" Eccles. 9:5 without contradicting the verse.. i believe it means what it says.. no projecting.. adding to, taking away.

his #4 is "symbolically"

i agree.. the grave as symbolism of death and deaths way. Death as a yawning pit.. darkness.. depths of the grave.. as poetic..

He quotes "We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we have an agreement.."

Isn't the true partner of death? ...the grave?!

"The wages of sin is...?" Romans 6:23

5. Place From Which Righteous Saved ( :mshock: )

Though the wicked remain in Sheol, it is the place from where the righteous are saved. The psalmist wrote.

But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for He will receive me. Selah (Psalm 49:15).

For great is Your steadfast love toward me; You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol (Psalm 86:13).

Still Within God's Reach

Those in Sheol are still within the reach of God. The prophet Amos said.

Though they dig down to the depths of the grave [Sheol}, from there My hand will take them. Though they climb up to the heavens, from there I will bring them down (Amos 9:2).

Sheol has no lasting influence on the godly.

He adds -

Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death? O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your destruction? Compassion is hidden from My eyes (Hosea 13:14).

Who said "if I make my BED in sheol.."

Where Is Sheol?

Whenever there is a geographic reference to Sheol, it is described as being below, in the lower parts of the earth. God said.

So? in the center of the Earth? lol. isn't the graves / buried, the lower part of Earth.. No, those legends of hearing moaning dead from the center of the Earth.. I cannot take to be true.. especially if the righteous go there too!?

Will they go down to the gates of Sheol? Shall we have rest together in the dust? (Job 17:16).

"Dust"? Sounds to me like sheol is equated to dust in this verse.. (Like Psalm 30.. and Is.14 says in sheol the worms are the bed and covering". Yaay, when mankind's imaginations are tamed.) :gsmile:

In summary.. I think it's simply what he had been taught how to think about the verses rather than comprehending the verses..

God is good.. no hell.. second death is the death of death, pain, suffering, wars, etc. sorrow.. all gone  :cloud9:

"For God knows how to preserve the unrighteous for correction on day of judgment" 2 Peter 2:9 - if they are corrected, no need for any to be included in the 2nd death.

"..given to man, ONCE to die, and then - the judgment"

Jesus said "all in the tombs (graves) will hear His voice.. and will come forth (from those tombs/graves).. some in the resurrection of life and some to the resurrection of judgment" (which 2 Peter 2:9 tells us "correction" according to the original word written. And Rev.20 tells us about the 2 resurrections.


I don't understand why we cant just read without projection.. contradicting.. adding to and taking away.. I'm tempted to become a spiritual hermit again as all this (babble) like such interpretation can be very frustrating.. lol.

i was reading today the greek word meaning blasphemy.. it included contradicting God. The wages of sin, God says, is death, not hell. Also means to/insult, etc. Which I did know before.. Surely, the hell myth blasphemes God..? His pristine character, and His abilities..

Mt.5:48 says He "is perfect". We can trust that He does all perfectly.. all just as He has done and does, in order to create and bring about the best possible perfection (paradise. For all. Is.11:7)

Perfect can make no mistake.. Cannot lose anything. To lose one, let alone 3/4s of humanity and 1/3 of His angels (lol).. to lose one, is to be not perfect. And not perfect fades away.. i.e. dies. "He alone, is immortal." And there is NO other Life, but Him. What I mean is, no eternal life in a hell.. no eternal life without being born again.. "the seed" Jesus planted in us and maturing..
:Peace2:  :cloud9:

[Patinak]

Surely, the hell myth blasphemes God..? His pristine character, and His abilities..

:iagree:

[rosered]

Surely, the hell myth blasphemes God..? His pristine character, and His abilities..

:iagree:

  And that is the crazy part about  all of it ,  the hell raised believers   think  we are  blaspheming God by denying hell !!!

  This  is   the two edged Sword ,  for sure           .... :eek: 

[sheila]

Psalms16;10 Thou will not leave my soul in hell.

2 Sam22;49,Psalms86;16great is thy mercy/he delivers my soul from hell.

John10;27,John10;10,John10;28I give to them eternal life...John 6;37.....Iwillraiseup

John 5;25 the dead shall hear....andlive

Hosea13;14ransomfrom the grave/redeem from death

Matt13;27,Romans14;7

Odes of Solomon25;1-11

Hebrews 12;22Odesof Sol8;8-25   Isaaih 66;18-23

John 4;23and Eccl12;7

  Apocalypse of Moses XLiii 1-5

Wisdom  of Solomon2;23BUT GOD CREATED MAN FOR IMMORTALITY AND MADE HIM THE IMAGE OF HIS OWN ETERNAL SELF...

IT WAS THE DEVILS SPITE THAT BROUGHT DEATHINTO THE WORLD,AND THE EXPIERENCE OF IT IS RESERVED FOR THOSE

WHO TAKE HIS SIDE[LOF Prepared FOR DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS[DEMONS}Kingdom prepared for man....

Luke 20;37   ALL LIVE UNTO HIM.


Just as in Jesus day..evil spirits[offspring of vipers]had ensconced themselves in men that were jewish religious leaders..........

and made their proselytes....two-fold the child of hell[=double death/LOFteaching]  whereas we know it is appointed for all

men to die once[unto the flesh]that they may return unto the Lord in spirit[flesh and blood can not inherit].

so,too,in our day...there are Lambs that speak as a dragon[REV 13;11]pushing eternal hellfire as mens lot....and totally denying

that Jesus' cross legally atoned for all men's sins. ANDHE HAS THE LEGAL RIGHT TO ALL MEN...HE BOUGHT THEM WITH HIS BLOOD.

God says...I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.That mercy is in Jesus Christ for all men.Satan and demons will not receive

mercy....God has put up with much long-suffering those vessels fitted for  eternal destructionin order to show His great mercy

unto man[fitted for glory-let the tares and wheat grow togather until harvest..lest ye uproot the wheat[man fitted for glory :2c:]

[Patinak]

Some good stuff to ponder there Sheila!

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: :girlheart:

[Lazarus Short]

One of our members (Lazarus Short) did a book by book study of Hell, you might want to check it out.  It is easiest to search on the forum here: https://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

Patinak, thank you for the plug, but the version in the linked thread is only a rough draft.  It is an organic, ongoing thing, often subject to revision and (hopefully) improvement.  In regards to Sheol, I found that the KJV translators rendered the word as "grave" or "pit" about half the time, when context required it.  By that, I mean that the context clearly put Sheol in the real world.  On the other hand, when context allowed, "sheol" was almost always rendered as "hell."  I see that as dishonesty and putting theology ahead of translation.

[sheila]

 :2c:JESUS BREAKS SHEOL/HELL WIDE OPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!How's that for breaking up the works of the devil?!!


     SHOUT/SING IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS



    Micah 2;13   One who breaks open the way will go up before them,they will break through the gate and go out. Their king

will  pass through before them.the LORD AT THEIR HEAD.

  Psalms 16;9,10    Therefore,my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;MY BODY ALSO SHALL REST SECURE,


                                                             BECAUSE...........



                           YOU WILL NOT ABANDON ME TO THE GRAVE

                            NOR WILL YOU LET YOUR HOLY ONE SEE DECAY


...................................................................................you have made known to me the path of life..you will fill me with joy

                                                                                                             IN YOUR PRESENCE.


   Psalms86;13  FOR GREAT IS YOUR LOVE TOWARDS ME;YOU HAVE DELIVERED ME FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE GRAVE

  John10;27,28..............I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH

    John 10;10,John 10;28,John6;37,John5;26

[joeteekay]

One of our members (Lazarus Short) did a book by book study of Hell, you might want to check it out.  It is easiest to search on the forum here: https://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

Patinak, thank you for the plug, but the version in the linked thread is only a rough draft.  It is an organic, ongoing thing, often subject to revision and (hopefully) improvement.  In regards to Sheol, I found that the KJV translators rendered the word as "grave" or "pit" about half the time, when context required it.  By that, I mean that the context clearly put Sheol in the real world.  On the other hand, when context allowed, "sheol" was almost always rendered as "hell."  I see that as dishonesty and putting theology ahead of translation.

Yes the word sheol is sometimes translated hell , and sometimes grave and a few times pit? It is interesting that the King James Version (AV) translates sheol as hell 31 times and it translates the same Hebrew word as grave 31 times and the word pit 3 times. Inconsistent! Oh, some will say its all about the context but that's not true. Are Hell and grave really the same word? No. Do they both have the same meaning? No. Something wrong with translating into two words from the one Hebrew word sheol?

It is interesting to note that a number of bible translators recognized this inconsistency and so we find that more recent translations translate the word sheol as grave . As a matter of fact, the New King James translates the word as hell only 19 times (not like the AV which does it 31 times). Even more interesting no other translation has the word hell in its translations including the ever popular NIV. This indicates that the pagan concept of hell is not in the Old Testament.

Sadly, the translators were influenced by ancient philosophy about the after life.

We must look for the origin of this doctrine of hell elsewhere than in the mind of God. No trace of it is found in the Old Testament, which is all the written record we have of the divine mind and purpose for the space of four thousand years. The Patriarchs knew nothing of it. Moses knew of this teaching having learned it in Egypt. He repudiates it by his silence. The Law as described in the Torah contains no vestige of it among all its penalties and threatening, blessings and cursing. It was reserved for the Gospel to bring forth the wonderful teaching of God concerning immortality and His glorious plan for mankind.

A thorough investigation will show that the doctrine of Endless Punishment in hell is nowhere to be found in the sacred Scriptures of the Jews. Among the ancient pagans, the belief in a hell of some sort was very common, if not universal. The doctrine of Endless Punishment in hell has come primarily from the ancient Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians. We find the doctrine in full bloom with the Egyptians, but not a trace of it among the early Hebrews.

But, surely enough, when, in later years, the Jews had become corrupted, and had departed from the Law of Moses, we find the doctrine among them. That the whole matter of judgment after death, the rewards of a good life, and the punishments of a bad life, originated and was perfected among the Egyptians, according to the peculiar character of their mythology.

From them it was borrowed by the Greeks, who made such changes and additions as fitted the system to the character and circumstances of that people. The rulers and magistrates, or priests, invented these terrors to keep the people, in subjection; the masses religiously believe in them; while the inventors, of course, and the educated classes, the priests and the philosophers, though they teach them to the multitude, have themselves no manner of faith in them.

One cannot help noting the resemblance between these ancient pagan men and some of our own day, who seem so anxious to maintain the hell doctrine in the belief that it is necessary to restrain men from sin. But, unfortunately for this theory, the revelations of history, both Pagan and Christian, prove it to be untrue.

Clearly in the Old Testament sheol was NOTa place of eternal punishment in hell fire. Sheol was a condition meaning unseen or imperceptible. Even faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37.35, 42.38, 44.29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14.13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49.15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16.10 and Acts 2.24-31. In all these cases, these men were in the unseen (sheol) because they were dead.

And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek Hades are identical in meaning. And concerning Jesus Christ:

Acts 2:27: (KJV) Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption is quoted from Psalm 16:10.

Acts 2:27 (CLV) For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen [Gk: hades], Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay.

Psalm 16:10: (KJV) For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16:10 (CLV) For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen [Heb:sheol]; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.

Absolutely nowhere is sheol used to represent a place of life, consciousness, fire, or torture—nowhere, absolutely nowhere.

Everyone's soul goes to sheol at death—both the sinners and the saints.
Sheol is the UNSEEN, IMPERCEPTIBLE, UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD throughout the Old Testament Scriptures.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (ASV – American Standard Version) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

So is there consciousness in the place sheol in the O.T.? Absolutely not. There is NO WORK, nor DEVICE, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave where you go (Ecc. 9:10). According to God's Word, when a person dies and returns to his earth, he or she has no consciousness or thoughts. God's answer: His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH (Psalm 146: 3-4).

Therefore the web site given by Chester-blowfold at the start of this thread is full of error IMO

[sheila]

 :2c:   SHE-OL is also another name for Babylon/FOLLY...OurMother Wisdom's/Jerusalem Above's rival.

       Proverbs ch9....Invitations of Wisdom and folly

    Folly/Babylon is loud,undisciplined,without knowledge....v18  but little do they know the dead are there...that her guests are

    in the depths of the grave.Many at present are drunk on Babylon's wine...filthy wine of fornication.


     Sheol/Babylon is'the strange woman' that is a deep pit. the daughters of God are admonished not to emulate her ways....

adornment/jewelry drunkedness/lusts/greeds.Rev ch17 and ch 18. And the sons of God to stay far from her.


                                         MYSTERY  BABYLON THE GREAT,THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES


                                         AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH



prostitution is an ol[e]profession-SHE-OL[d]....trouble often comes in the form/guise of a woman rival

[chester-blowfold]

Are there any early Bible writings where Sheol, Hades is not changed to hell?

When actually did Sheol, Hades become hell?

[marie glen]

Surely, the hell myth blasphemes God..? His pristine character, and His abilities..

:iagree:

  And that is the crazy part about  all of it ,  the hell raised believers   think  we are  blaspheming God by denying hell !!!

  This  is   the two edged Sword ,  for sure           .... :eek:

   :laughing7: Quite ironic, isn't it!

[marie glen]

One of our members (Lazarus Short) did a book by book study of Hell, you might want to check it out.  It is easiest to search on the forum here: https://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

Patinak, thank you for the plug, but the version in the linked thread is only a rough draft.  It is an organic, ongoing thing, often subject to revision and (hopefully) improvement.  In regards to Sheol, I found that the KJV translators rendered the word as "grave" or "pit" about half the time, when context required it.  By that, I mean that the context clearly put Sheol in the real world.  On the other hand, when context allowed, "sheol" was almost always rendered as "hell."  I see that as dishonesty and putting theology ahead of translation.

Amen! :hiya:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Just yesterday I was reading an article about how - supposedly - sheol is grave - that much I agreed with, lol. But how sometimes it means the grave, sometimes an unseen realm, and sometimes is figurative. which of course figurative or poetically, is true too. But his list of sheol verses to me. Some verses he took to be an unseen realm of the undead :laughing7: (sorry :doh: ) included the word dust, or dust of. And also the verse about sheol that ends with "O DEATH where is your sting?" :Chinscratch: But of course if one thinks death is a form of life and living, the irony would be missing?

As far as being a hazy unseen realm of disembodied spirits (pneuma/breath(s) or ghosts!) Those who have died, are indeed, not seen.. but I was never able to believe the concept of eternal life without being born again.. And what did that olde serpent say? "surely.. (gasp?) you won't die!?"

Part of the first contradicting of God (imo) which contradicting Him is included in the description of blasphemy.. Untruth (unintentionally!) blasphemes? Insults..

And what did God say? (Genesis 3)

I don't care if folks believe differently - my best gal friend believes her son who committed suicide visits her.. in small ways. I think of it as angels.. or the Lord, whom she does believe in.. but is not so far, a bible reader. Would I contradict her about her son? Heck no!

It only concerns me as it concerns UR. As I consider God's message (Word) to be very simple.. But has become all this confusion and we know how.

This is why -
Jesus said "all in the tombs (graves) will hear His voice and come forth" (out of the tombs/graves) "..some to the resurrection of life, and some to the resurrection of judgment" Jn.5:28-29.

And 2 Peter 2:9 says "God knows how to preserve the unjust (the not yet just!) for correction (kolasis) on day (age?) of Judgment."

Now if He is going to correct, and, He "is perfect" (Mt.5:48) is there even one that He shall not-be-able to "correct"? That would not be "perfect". Hence, the 2nd death - "it is given unto man once to die" - is the death of death, sorrow, pain, wars, etc.If He corrects "all" - and we know He does - no need for any to go to lof. [I do not believe the 2 cast there in Rev.19 are humans but institutions and beliefs of man's world/empire active ("alive") at the time of His return.

My point being, no hell nor holding cell (for centuries? gasp!) needed if we do not have inherent, without Jesus, eternal life, or immortality. "God, who alone, is immortal". 1 Tim.6:16.

It's the W H O L E  struggle isn't it? Folks trying to get a clear picture? (Rather than a sort of Picasso kind of puzzle, or worse! A Salvadore Dali! And all that uncertainty. Instead of what (imo, of course :) the bible says.. all mercifally & peacefully dozing (lol) waiting to "hear His voice and come forth". Lived their lives, learned certain things.. hopefully :gsmile: then on Great 'Day of Review, learning SO much more! Including the redemption from Romans 6:23 (see Rev. ch 20, about the 2 resurrections, collective, not in this case, the personal born again experience.)

(I  do not believe there is a lake of fire that is existent at all times.. but only where / at the points, where it is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. And 2 Peter 3:10-13 being bookends of Jesus' long second advent? But that's a slightly different topic?)

I have to run.. make dinner :gsmile: but I haven't finished reading this thread yet!
:Peace2: :gsmile:

[marie glen]

Amen Patinak :iagree:

Especially -

Absolutely nowhere is sheol used to represent a place of life, consciousness, fire, or torture—nowhere, absolutely nowhere.

Everyone's soul goes to sheol at death—both the sinners and the saints.
Sheol is the UNSEEN, IMPERCEPTIBLE, UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD throughout the Old Testament Scriptures.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (ASV – American Standard Version) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

So is there consciousness in the place sheol in the O.T.? Absolutely not. There is NO WORK, nor DEVICE, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave where you go (Ecc. 9:10). According to God's Word, when a person dies and returns to his earth, he or she has no consciousness or thoughts. God's answer: His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH (Psalm 146: 3-4).

Therefore the web site given by Chester-blowfold at the start of this thread is full of error IMO

:thumbsup:

Are there any early Bible writings where Sheol, Hades is not changed to hell?

When actually did Sheol, Hades become hell?

:Chinscratch: I wonder..  I do know even the Hebrews fell under the spell of the hell myth.. which (I've heard) is included in other writings, like the Talmud.. And how Paul wrote to Titus (1:14) "pay no attention to Jewish myths" - whether that's what he was referring to idk.. or "old wives tales" I think he wrote to Timothy(?)

I read something a while back that said the translation errors "hell", afterlife punishment - which judgment in the OT was Earthly.. And Jude says the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah is our "example" of eternal aionian (eon-ian - of the age?) fire.. Which as we know Jesus mentions those cities as present at "the judgment" (a different/coming age?)

oops lost my train of thought.. I read something recently saying the errors were intentional.. :dontknow: Could be.. Or simply the translators were steeped in the world cultural views..

This page as far as I've read sounds promising - http://www.crivoice.org/dead.html

In other words, Sheol or Hades was a poetic way to say, "they died and were buried." It is in this sense that the phrase in the Apostles' Creed is used, using the ambiguous word "hell" in English, when the more precise idea of Hades actually lies behind the statement. "He descended into hell" then becomes nothing more than a statement that Jesus died and was placed in the tomb, the grave. Using Hebrew concepts, Israelites would say he descended into Sheol, that is, was lowered into the grave. Or they could say that he slept with the fathers (for example, 1 Kings 2:10), that is, was placed in a family tomb. It is in that context that the affirmation of the resurrection is so powerful.

This confusion of the concept may already have been at work in the early church, and may even have influenced the passages in 1 Peter, recognized by most scholars to be some of the latest in the New Testament written near the end of the first century. We cannot be sure of that, but in any case there is more to be gained in looking exegetically at those passages...

It also mentions the notorious verses in 1 Peter saying Jesus preached to those who perished in the day of Noah. preached via the same Spirit (which was made alive within Him) - but 2 Peter (imo) tells us HOW he preached to them, saying "NOAH was a preacher of righteousness, (imo) all while the ark was being built..

1 Peter 3:18-20 -
...18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit, 19in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison (greek - guard, watch, hold. Imo, locked into judgment by their unbelief) 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built... 2 Peter 2:4-5 - 4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell tartarus (darkness?), placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly.. ---> earthly! (even lake of fire? (imo)

"angels when they sinned" Greek "missed the mark" to err, be mistaken; lastly to miss or wander from the path of uprightness --- "..and, lo, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his head seven diadems,
4 and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven (Rev.12:4; last verse of Rev.1 says "the stars are angels") out of their path/order - poetically, with his tail he drew them.. away..). Verse 9 - "...the great dragon... the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world.."

..well now I've strayed.. but the two.. preaching to those who were outside the ark.. and the angels in chains of darkness, are both used to claim 'hell'.. which is vastly out of touch with so much other scripture, that it is logical to assume they are (also) a victim of translation error due to belief bias.. pre-perception.. A projecting..

..but I think the preaching via Christ's Spirit was through "Noah a preacher of righteousness".

"For God knows how to preserve the unjust for correction/kolasis on day (age?) of judgment" 2 Peter 2:9.

Jesus said, "all in the tombs (graves) will hear His voice and will come forth (from the tombs/graves).. some in the resurrection of life, and some in the resurrection of judgment" Jn.5:28-29. Revelation is about the 2 resurrections.

He "is perfect" Mt.5:48. Is there any He cannot "correct"? Which would NOT be "perfect". Thus (imo:) no humans in lake of fire.. except at Jesus' return amidst (fiery) Armageddon -- Earthly.

2 Peter 3:10-13 - bookends of our Lord's long 2nd advent? (Patterned after the Fall Holy Days of Lev.23, like His 1st one fulfilled and was patterned after the Spring ones?)

[chester-blowfold]

Does websters say Sheol and Hades is hell?

[darryl]

a bit off topic but I do not believe in Conditional Immortality cos Heaven has no tears or pain....imagine the tears of a father who's beloved daughter is not in Heaven with him , but she's been totally annihilated...God would have to take away the memory of that daughter from her father, but she was such a huge part of his life......no, it does not seem right to me.....