Immortality thru Jesus alone? Or?

[marie glen]

The "dead" in Christ have ever-lasting life.

But do you think people have everlasting life before their redemption?

[rosered]

The "dead" in Christ have ever-lasting life.

But do you think people have everlasting life before their redemption?

  I do!!   it is the free gift , from the sacrifice  of  the lamb ,   some now , some later and some in the end , but  all  are given the gift of Life , just as they were  given death  and subjected to the vanity of this life not willingly  .

the sleep of death has many meanings to me ....   the day we eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil  is  the sleep of Adam


to me the awakening is the resurrection LIFE , a great Light no one can deny   seeing our Lord Jesus Christ as HE IS .

1.
FORMAL
an act of waking from sleep.
2.
an act or moment of becoming suddenly aware of something.
"the war came as a rude awakening to the hardships of life"
adjective
1.
coming into existence or awareness.



anástasis, an-as'-tas-is; from G450; a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):—raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

Ephesians 5:14  (AMPC)
14 Therefore He says, Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine (make day dawn) upon you and give you light.   

its all about forgiveness  , JESUS FORGAVE   everyone   on that cross in saying  ," Forgive  them Father for they know not what they are doing ".  , I see this as  "  all mankind   ONCE , for all time "   

while we were yet sinners [ everyone  in adam  ] Christ died  for us ........

I see so many  on facebook  as confessed Christians still with that hatred  against  one another ,speaking sweet things and  bitter things still against  one another   , example ,'' wanting the muslims to suffer without mercy''  .. they only show mercy to their own kind of thinking   and it is hard to be in any agreement with this kind of thinking ............  so sad     

  JAMES 3 ...10Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, this should not be!!!!!!!!!!!

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Is mankind born with immortality?

I'm not asking if all will be saved. I know all will have everlasting life.. some now, some after this life.

Is a person born with everlasting life?

Or is it that you think Jesus died and all have eternal life now? ..But isn't that universalism, but not Christian Universalism?

...this is getting too frustrating..

[sheila]

 :2c:  The Lamb was slain before the founding of this world.Anyone thinking it comes any other way but through the Father and Jesus

are deceived. But the promise/free gift is neither by knowledge or works.the TOL was in the garden in the beginning and Jesus Christ

was a piece of ripe fruit of that 'seed bearing' tree. The truth may be twisted,men confused and in ignorance,followers of Buddha/confusicus

Mohammad,DaliLama,Pope,Judaism/catholic/Baptist,lutheran etc....but it is a free gift/not of works; from God and Jesus...and that will be

testified to...and all will know God in spirit and truth. Sure satan twists it to suit his own agenda..and men for their own,but no truth is

ever a lie.  ALL THINGS ARE YOURS,BOTH DEATH AND LIFE...and you are God's.

[marie glen]

Does a person who does not yet believe, have everlasting life?

[sheila]

 :2c:I believe so.because it is not based on mens works in this temporal realm..and is free.Romans 5;15-18

   through the obedience of the ONE man...many will be made righteous.[all men raised up in Christ's image]

v 21 so that just as sin reigned in death...so also GRACE must reign in righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[jabcat]

Does a person who does not yet believe, have everlasting life?

I think that requires some thought and consideration of terms and "times"?

Because even though God WILL be All in All, there are some scriptures to consider about current unbelievers; those who have not as yet been called, chosen and given faith to believe.  Have not yet gone through whatever processing is required to bring to "every knee bow[ing], every tongue confess[ing] Jesus.."

That their time will come, but is not yet.  And although God has provided and made the Way, it has not been applied/brought to fruition (?) yet for everyone...

unbelievers can't as yet be called children of God   John 1:12

The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him. John 3

..that he who believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life..but him who does not believe is condemned already...John 3:16,18, John 3:36

So is it already possessed (I don't think so - I think that comes through being given faith to believe/accept Jesus the Sacrifice);  or provided for, yet to be accomplished in order?


*Maybe gets into that thing of God is "outside/beyond time", yet He deals with us within time...

:Chinscratch:  :)



 

[sheila]

 Hey Jab, we can't tell a servant from an heir[son] til they come of age..one inherits,one doesn''t remain in the household .I see it as

as it's theirs..but it's just a matter of 'coming into it"  Granted,some are so severely exhibiting the likeness /nature of the wicked one..

'marred' so severely by sin,possessed and controlled by demons horribly..but Jesus can cast them out with a word. It's horrible....and

makes me shudder. I confess,I do better loving such ones from a distance,but I do have pity for them. Those held too tightly by

satan/sin, Jesus shatters their clay vessel[body] with his iron rod and removes their spirit..it's a mercy really to deliver them from

such a state. :sigh:

[jugghead]

I look at it as; Christ is the seed of eternal life freely given to all, and just as Christ is formed in us, so must the seed be formed into the Tree of Life in us, bearing the fruit of the Spirit

[rosered]

  Yes ,  that is   of a truth . '   
  Shelia , James and Jugg .
Because I have found it impossible to judge by appearances  what is right in Gods  sight . so much of this seems to be evil , but God is using this all for the good in the end .

God has placed  many  to experience evil  in order   to fulfill His plan   to be  vessels fitted for destruction .

  I really had to consider this  in my own heart   thoroughly  , there  are the examples of Israel  being cast off but  not forever  in order for all the rest of the nations to come to Christ .
   Pharaoh   had his heart hardened by God in order for the  power of God to be made known though Moses .
    Judas  was chosen to betray   Jesus Christ  out of the  12  picked for Gods purpose .

   the beast  was  set to hate the whore and burn her flesh with fire   because God put it in their hearts to do so .
  Cain was  set to fail the test    and slay his  brother in order for Gods will to prove   evil exist  in the hearts  of mankind  and as an example of  what not to do .
  There are so many more examples   also    , these are just off the top of my head  to consider , are they fulfilling   Gods purpose    in exposing  evil  , just as  those being ruled over by the evil  one as  examples of our day also ?

its says also that Gods judgements are in the earth   Isaiah 26  ;8-10 Psalm 105:7He is the LORD our God; His judgments carry throughout the earth.

  It was  when I read Peters  witness / testimony as via  the Holy Spirit  that  really got me to thinking differently
  when He said , Pray  it be that God   wills it  you be suffering for doing good  rather than evil doing .

But it made me consider God  shows us both sides   of the law / coin ,   when we suffer   under the law of good and evil ...

and that is what leads us to Christ by many teachers , lessons  and experiences

I can now see many people set in our lives   as signposts  where judgements    and testing   and even temptations comes from .  some are for our good  and some are not  and it is teaching us to discern  what  spirit is operating  in  ourselves  as well as others .
a sign giving information such as the direction and distance to a nearby town, typically found at a crossroads.

We are to all meet  Jesus  in Galilee  [ "g'lil hagoyim"  wheel revolution"a turn around"]   a town spiritul to me in meaning  as well as Jerusalem[ "The City of Peace" or "Abode of Peace" ]    from above our heavenly home   
  I believe  when we obey   the Lord in His  direction He puts us all on a new path  and  gives a new heart to obey the laws of God .  and it is the seed of Christ  with the anointing of the  Holy Spirit that becomes our   teacher of truth   , leading and guiding us to all truth   that sets us free from the bondage   of sin[evil]  and its slavery .like Paul even shared  in romans  7  when he wanted to good in the Spirit   by His mind of Christ obedience  to Gods desire to do good from the heart  , that  evil was still present in his corruptible body and weakened and  fleshly state .   he goes on than to praise GOD though Jesus Christ that he puts all his trust in  HIM to deliver  him from the body of death .

many will not come to the cross [roads ] that lead to life until    death of the physical body of dust  is  seperated and but by faith we are to consider it already as dead by following Jesus Christ with the Father and Holy Spirit  convicting us and chastening us  and comforting us   till we are formed and made complete . I do believe  that even us  that believe in the salvation of all   will still be learning and experiencing the  same educational  teaching of the Holy Spirit  after mortal death of the body .

Because the soul and spirit  are still  being completed /perfected   in the  glorified state  in   the body of Christ  in the heavenly realm , why  would I think this way   ? ,  because   Jesus says in the Spirit of revelation  our glorified bodies are not  our own .

  and that we are still under the authoritative  rulership  of the HOLY SPIRIT by JESUS  CHRIST /WORD OF GOD , until GOD be all in all .

I can say this over and over again , but there are  difficulties  in explaining what you  believe in your heart  already , but to convey this to others is hard  to express .

I believe Jesus Christ is the 7th day   and the rest we enter  into  , His glorified body  and wait on the  HOLY SPIRIT to complete us all, we are to sit on his  throne , rev 3;21  where HE sits and the FATHER sits also   ''same place ''  it is noted
  21To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
    it is about overcoming the world to the end . in a nutshell to me anyways  ..  it can only be done by the  Holy Spirit working in us  and becoming more spiritual in His own nature  as JESUS IS Spiritual  and the Father is Spiritual   , not flesh and blood nor any other spirit  but the HOLY ONE /LOVE  doing the works  in all of us .
    Proving   GOD IS TRUE by every Word / Jesus Christ  is the Word of  truth and  the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH   both witnesses  and testimonies   are true to GOD  HIMSELF .GOD IS LOVE

I hope this is not confusing or frustrating  , but it is my own faith in God  and has been the greatest  comfort to me to understand , I do not know   everything   , but know His plan is perfect and complete and without error  , because the Truth  in LOVE  is what we are seeking to know and be and  desire also  for everyone .    :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen all! Thank you!  :thumbsup: And I agree with it all.. heirs but they don't know it yet and aren't of age yet.. and can't be said to 'own' it yet, but it's held in trust..

It seems like a thin line between what ET views as Universalism - every one saved no matter what belief and who is believed in - Jesus or Buddha for instance.. And "Christian" Universalism which says all saved through union/reconciliation with God, through Jesus, "The (only) Way."

And the prodigal son - all of us! COULD, POTENTIALLY, never return and stay out there in the outer darkness subsisting on swine's food, until he "perished" as Jesus said it.. BUT of course none will, God being stronger, all capable, nothing impossible to Him.

ET believers of course think we're all the worldly sort of universalists.. For now anyway! :Peace2: :cloud9: (oops posting at the same time as Rose)

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: Amen Rose! to all. It's hard to share, put into words, easy to misunderstand others, and hard to be understood, lol. Sometimes, for me anyway, conversing with others, or trying to, makes me put something into words.. This wondering has made me summarize the crux of what I think of as the overall message of God and "Christian" Universalism I think I perceive in the scriptures.. I blogged it, lol, and plan to link to it in discussion elsewhere, when it fits.. https://innermonastery.wordpress.com/2019/05/17/poof-hell-is-gone/ (for current ET/ETC believers & nonbelievers)

You'll never know anyone more generous and kind, than the Heavenly Father. In fact 1 Jn.4:8 says He is love! And then there's this, if He wasn't perfect, He too would fade away. Perfect makes no mistake(s). And can lose nothing. Why did He put innocent Adam and Eve in the little garden well after the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred? He knew (of course) what was in the adversary's heart! But see how all are taking this unavoidable journey (and lesson) all together, at once. Unavoidable if there's to be thinking and reasoning ability! You see, if God is life itself - and what else could be? And He "is perfect" (Mt.5:48) then anything in thought, word or deed that differs with Him, is imperfect, the opposite of life!
- So the remedy was built in from the beginning, "Christ crucified at the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8). But as a loving father, He is letting choices, other than His, exist and run their course. Even though now there is suffering, there is death, there are wars.. All of which He, as life itself, lives through! Why put Himself through all that? So all will fully understand what is, and tends to life, and what is, and tends to death. Good from evil! How are you going to have an enduring paradise (for all) if there is any rational creature that does not fully understand that? Understand what? That He is Life. And no one can have life apart from Him - and, His perfection. Perfection is life. Missing the mark (translated sin) is death. All need to know it can never work! ..Go not that way!
- Jesus tells us, via the parables, that humanity is the Father's garden. It's a crazy garden! The weeds far outnumber the wheat! But in the 'end' even the weeds will become wheat! Because Jesus said He will draw all to Him, Jn.12:32.
- But that doesn't mean this circus (travesty?) won't play out to the conclusion. After all, that's the proof! The conclusion of this lesson of good and evil. We're told all about that conclusion. The weeds will gear up - the nations will "make war" (Rev.12:17 w/ Mt.23:39; Rev.16:14,15,16) against Jerusalem (Israel). The weeds will gather to Armageddon. Which will mushroom into a lake (flood) of fire, Jesus returns, gathering all believers of all time to Himself, to meet Him as He is arriving, and on that day His feet will stand upon Mount of Olives which will split in two via a great earthquake (Zechariah 14:4). And thus the prophesied Millennium of Jesus begins. The "rest of the dead come not back to life until after the thousand years" (Rev.20:6).
- His first advent, as we know, fulfilled the ancient Spring Holy Days. He was the Passover Lamb dying the death/annihilation/lack of life all were under (1 Jn.2:2) a strong enough image to pierce every self tormenting conscience! He is the Unleavened Bread of Life, and the Firstfruits of God. The three Spring Holy Days as prophecy. Along with Pentecost seven weeks later, when He baptized the first believers with flames of fire. God is that fire!
- Doesn't that mean His long second advent - the three main peaks of - will fulfill the three Fall Holy Days of - Trumpets (of Rev. and His return), and 10 days later (1000 years later) Day of Atonement, and 5 days later (500 years later) Tabernacles! Notice how Rev.21, verses 1 and 3, say "..a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.. the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell (tabernacle) with them.."
- "The bear will graze with the cow and the lion will eat straw like the ox." (Isaiah 11:7)
The pattern plays out like this, the Lord's return and the millennium of a thousand years; then "the judgment" of 500 years. Which is the only time Ps.22:27 can be fulfilled. Which says "all the ends of Earth will remember/take thought, and turn to the Lord, and all families of the nations will worship/rejoice before Him!" All names found "in the book of life" ..Like ancient collective Day of Atonement, anyone "not afflicting their soul on that day will be cast out from among the people! But seriously, after rising from the grave and living through the judgment (great day of review) who's not going to "believe"?
- Isaiah 45:21-24 says - "..Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I the Lord? There is no other God but me. A just God. And a Saviour.. Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth.. I have sworn, by my own name! I have spoken the truth, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will declare allegiance to me. The people will declare, `The Lord is the source of all my righteousness and strength.` And all who were angry with him will come to him.." The 'end'.
- "With God nothing is impossible!" (Lk.1:27) He is love, and "love never fails!" 1 Cor.13:8 & 15:22-28.

[rosered]

 
  I love what you shared and read it sister Marie  :HeartThrob:

I see what you shared as the  inward workings  of good and evil as an outward manifestation of what rules the heart of mankind

   We do go in and out of the spirit  and the lifting up  of the LORD in praise and prayers   and in our private moments[on earth as it is in heaven ]   as well as  our fellowship with one another and where  any are gathered together in His name  he is faithful  to be among us  and  BE  in our presence .

For me , this is why it is important not to  call upon the name of the LORD  in vain ,,  he  returns to us  by our  sincere  seeking His face  and not the petty things and worldly gains of this life .

I believe wholeheartedly  that the reason why  we are experiencing  the good and evil is because GODS WORD IS TRUE

We are still in adam/mankind    and the day  we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil / produced the fruit  and  law  we all eat of first ,  we surly die to  GOD  experiencing the god of this world/satan adversary  Corinthians 4:4

1 Cor 8 4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords),

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist....

and it is turning  back to the true and living God  , by  and though Jesus Christ  , the way made  by God Himself  to be reconciled    back to Himself   once  again

I have really been blessed as of late by all the  wonderful things God is doing in our lives .

the fear has ceased  and the LOVE has grown   and thank God for His mercy on us all
  I do think it is very , very important for the UR  believers to keep praying for the mercy of GOD  on all  flesh and souls and pray they  also  get into the right spirit ,   HIS HOLY   ONE Spirit  where all will be  under  and into  one day again [all in all ] ...

and save them all from such   needless suffering , salvation to me means  not to suffer  any longer for the evil that fruit and tree /knowledge  produces  , good   also but evil is still present ] , but the tree of Life where the  Holy fruits   heal us and make us  right with our   HOLY FATHER  again .   Whole  and new and  complete in Him .   to me Jesus is the Word / and the Father is the SPIRIT  and One cannot be without the other  ,  GODS WORD will not return to Him void  but will accomplish  everything done /works by HIS own Holy Spirit    and our  labouring in vain will cease by more and  more of Himself [faith in Him works ]   as our exceedingly great reward .....
  :HeartThrob:
 

[jugghead]

This thread was timely. It never ceases to amaze me how He works through others to benefit another, for ALL that He does is for our benefit.

Thank you MG for starting this thread and to the others who have made comments because they lead to things said that have had an impact in me.

In other words, MG planted, others watered and God caused the growth in me. Thank you all.

One more plant growing in His garden in me of which each had their part.

Blessings

[rosered]

This thread was timely. It never ceases to amaze me how He works through others to benefit another, for ALL that He does is for our benefit.

Thank you MG for starting this thread and to the others who have made comments because they lead to things said that have had an impact in me.

In other words, MG planted, others watered and God caused the growth in me. Thank you all.

One more plant growing in His garden in me of which each had their part.

Blessings

  Amen Jugg ,
  He is an excellent  FATHER  and loves His  born again of the Spirit children unconditionally , love keeps no record of wrong  !

it is the awaking  up out of the sleep in Adam /death and to rise up  and FACE THE DAY   JESUS and SEE HIM as He IS   :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

  I love being in the Spirit and want it all the time now ...  cannot  hardly wait  !!!!!!!!!!!!