the meaning of the second death and lake of fire

[violettera]

Hi!  I came across these articles from another website created by Christian Universalists.  Some of their articles are a bit confusing to me, and their interpretation of Christian living is very strict compared to others, but they have an interpretation of the second death that I had not heard of before and was wondering if some of you had come across it.  You can read it here:

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/restitution/seconddeath.htm

Basically they are saying that all who accept Christ while alive on earth and obey His commands are sanctified during life and will basically go straight to heaven and not have to suffer through the second death.

However, the second death occurs when all the sinners and nonbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which destroys all hell and death.  Afterwards is when there will be no more suffering, no more death, every knee will bow, everyone will rejoice in our Savior, etc.  It makes sense to me, although the concept is so new to me that part of me is hesitant, or even afraid to believe it fully yet.  It just sounds too good to be true! 

I was thinking about how the traditional interpretation of all the sinners being thrown into the Lake of Fire, followed by rejoicing, doesn't make much sense.  Do God's Holy people really want to rejoice at a massive massacre that leaves most of the people of the world in endless torment?  Would we really be praising our Savior and King? 

It seems to me that the Lake of Fire and the Second Death could be the way of purging the last of the evil out of the souls how avoided the light.  You know how John 3:20 says "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed."  I think those people may be the ones who retreat into "hell" and stay away from heaven after dead, out of their own choice.  If you ever heard of the NDE of Dr. George Ritche or Howard Storm, they saw people in this state, people who had died and had rejected the love of Jesus.  So the Lake of Fire may be the final way the Lord reconciles them all to Him.

Then I was wondering, if this is true, how horrible would the second death be?  It's certainly something I'd rather avoid....However I found some scripture that made me feel encouraged.  In general, God himself is depicted as a consuming or refining fire in many instances in the Bible.  One of the verses I found, I can't find now and wish I had written it down.  It said something about how the Lord sent down His fire on people but even after burning them in the fire, they still had hardened hearts and wouldn't turn to Him.  Obviously He couldn't have meant a literal fire because anyone in their right mind would beg for the torture to stop and turn to Him right away, so it must have been symbolic of how He chastened them to lead them to Him but they still were not ready to accept Him.

Other verses I found that show that the Lord uses punishment or fire to draw people to Him are:

"You will know that I am the Lord, when I inflict punishment on you and within you am proved to be holy.  I will send a plague upon you and make blood flow in your streets.  The slain will fall within you, with the sword against you on every side.  Then you will know that I am the Lord.  No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns.  Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord." Ezekiel 28:22 - 24

"See, the storm of the Lord will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.  The anger of the Lord will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his hearts.  In days to come you will understand it clearly."  Jeremiah 24:19 - 20

"You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me," declares the Lord.  Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel, prepare to meet your God" Amos 4:11

And then I saw "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.  Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love."  Lamentations 3:31 - 32.


My thinking is that the Lake of fire will be different for each individual, depending on how they lived their lives, and will perfectly draw all people back to God.  I'd love to hear some of your interpretations of the Second Death and Lake of Fire and see if it matches this article's viewpoint.

Michelle, thank you . when I read this website I found an article "Victor Hafichuk's Testimony". I have had similar experiences. it's only been less than a year since I really know Jesus Christ. I am  am very happy to have read his articles. Especially since it can be translated into French. It has been all new to me since the spiritual encounter of Jesus
Thank you god.
Thank you Jesus Christ.

[marie glen]

I have stumbled on a new thing - but the old things are deeply held - so I don't think it's easy to "hear".. But, it takes time for new ideas.. but it seems so extremely obvious to me.. And more and more obvious as I study and prayerfully ponder it.

Let me see if I can explain it. Even though I still believe His Spirit is as a consuming fire.. and is, in the sense that purity consumes impurity like light consumes darkness..

The idea I've gotten lately is SO simple! But there's such a huge trend - or growing tsunami - that likes to claim God's Word is all - and only - metaphor. (But I think that attracts like sensationalism.. for a while the scripture doesn't seem that exciting to us - probably because we don't get it! We can't put the pieces together - the overall picture, instead of being the breathtaking and gorgeous landscape that it is, it appears to us like a Picasso.. Or maybe some people see a Picasso as beauty? I prefer a clear, sensible, down to earth painting - and truth. To me the Book of Revelation reads so clear, yet no one can see it. Things prophesied are in the world and huge.. some events already occurred, huge and in our faces.. can't see it.

But I'm straying :soap:

So back when the scriptures were written, and more importantly, when translators translated, they had no idea of the immense fiery capability mankind would have.. Can you see where I'm going with this? What if there is no - AFTER LIFE or SPIRITUAL lake of fire at all.. but it is (1) a thermonuclear Armageddon.. going on at Jesus' return (it's even getting popular to think His return is not literal! .."where is the promise of His coming?")

So what if God is letting this waywardness (disobedience) of mankind to occur and run its course? How would it be prevented? Make no able to think beings.. ever? If we can think and reason, can't we make choices and go our own way? So God decided to have all go through it at once.. get it over with. Then, unless the world and mankind turns wholeheartedly to God, it's bound to conclude, well, rather fiery is what I'm saying. And that's what I truly think the lake of fire is - prophecy.. and the only afterlife torment shall only be within, for some on judgment 'day', which surely "the judgment must take a lot longer than a day!

And biblically, there's 3 mentions of LOF in Revelation --- 1- at Jesus' return. - 2 - at the final defeat of the adversary in Rev.20, fire "rains" and he's in (a) LOF. And - 3 - following "the judgment" [which follows "the millennium" of Jesus upon Earth, after His return] when God "makes all things new" - which here it is - (imo)in plain language, as the saying goes -
--- "2 Peter 3 - 10-11 & 12-13 -  10 "and it will come -- the day of-the-Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens/atmosphere with a rushing noise will pass away/Greek-pass by, and elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up. 11 Since all these things (of the world) are to be destroyed in this way, serve and honor God by the way you live." --- these verses being the return of Jesus.
12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day-of-God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt; 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." --- the making new of ALL things. Anyone - by then - still not believing/written in the book of life will be in (that) lake of fire. Which means no one, because Jesus said He will draw ALL to Him, Jn.12:32.

"The bear will graze with the cow and the lion will eat straw like the ox." Isaiah 11:7

[eaglesway]

I think "tsunami" is a little sensational ;o)

Jesus has fire in His eyes in Rev. Chaptr 1.

Is that a thermonuclear reaction? :o)

In Matthew 25 what is Jesus referring to when He says " they will be cast into "aionion pyr"?(ageduring fire" or "fire of the age to come"?

If our God is a consuming fire, is He "thermo-nuclear"?

Frequently metaphors are physical things that represent spiritual understandings so we can grasp them, at least partially, because they are beyond the veil and can only be understood in principal. These prophecies have been in place for thousands of years as vital, living, words of exhortation for "anyone who seeks" their present, living and active, meaning for us as individuals and communities.

If you look at Dan 7 you see a vision of Jesus, fire is proceeding from His throne, He is surrounded my multitudes of angels as He appears. In Rev chapters 15 and 22 there is a river of living water coming from the throne and a crystal sea in front of the throne.

Are Daniel and John seeing different things? Or are they seeing different metaphorical aspects of the same thing? A river of fire to the rebel is a river of living water to the those who are in the love of God. When the river of fire has "consumed" all that is not of love, then it will become as living water to the newly repentant who bows and declares, "Jesus is Lord! with joy in a renewed heart.

The one who sits one the thone says, "Behold, I am making all things new"....Write these things down for they are faithful and true."

a lake of fire before the throne is  also a crystal sea before the throne. Those cast into the lake of fire will those cast into the sea of God's redeemed who will say, "Come, let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet He will make them white as snow ".... "Know you not you will judge the world?"

Dan 7 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

I think maybe we, the elect of God, are the crystal sea and the lake of fire. Thats why it is all grace. We were only selected to be the first-fruits, the seed stock, but all who come after will be as we will be as they come into the family.

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2


Maybe thats why the "whole creation" eagerly awaits the revelation of the children of God.

Thats why death is the last adversary. When God is "all in all"...and all are in His love... the fire and the water will be one, in all, and death will be no more because when there is only love, there is only life.  :dontknow:

[marie glen]

10But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.

That sounds like God's Spirit?.. and metaphor only? The day of the Lord is when Jesus returns (amid Armageddon) - it's surprising how many christians think His return is metaphor. Were the fulfilled OT prophecies, metaphor only?

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way... 12as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, WHEN the heavens will be destroyed by fire. And the elements will melt in the heat. [what metaphor?! only if one adds to or takes away from the verse] 13 BUT in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to A new heaven and A new earth, where righteousness dwells.

When does that happen? After judgment 'day' and before the vivication of ALL at the making of all things new and God being all in all.. If there is a being by then unwilling to bend the knee - which we know via the scripture, shall not occur - well, why does the LOF mentioned right there in the scripture, have to be a different fire? Than the elements melting..

He is a purifying Spirit, a consuming fire.. but no I don't think He IS fire.. so thAt I think of as metaphor for His purifying essence.. and it doesn't really say the crystal radiance and the lake of fire are the same thing..

I don't think any humans will be thrown into a lake of fire. Potentially yes, at the "all in all" occurrence.. or caught up in the conflagation of very late days.. Isaiah 38 says they will look at each other their faces on fire.. I do not believe this is God throwing ppl to a lof.. but prophecy. Which translators having no idea of man's modern capabilities mistook for the pagan afterlife torment. It seems real obvious to me. In Revelation and in the prophets.

The fire streaming from the throne in Daniel I think is metaphor. The one at Armageddon - not the armageddon in me, it's not all about me - and the melting of the elements into a new heavens and a new earth, I think both will be the literal element of fire. He has kindled a fire.. allowed man to play God in many ways, one way as splitting the physical building block of God as an epitome of man's doings and wars. "All mankind will look at the dead bodies in abhorrence". Abhorring forever the wayward way! Having witnessed its fruit.

I believe there is amazing metaphor and lesson in all things for ones inner understanding and healing. But I also believe it's the literal that glorifies God, and is the clear message folks most need to hear.. The overall message of what God is doing and proving. The fruit of waywardness is ruin. I think metaphor can descend to every person's opinions or expounding, and has the tendency to glorify humans, and can be an idol. Definitely, imo, second place to literal. Can end up like youtube, entertaining.. But to seekers of the overall truth of life, every person talking metaphor may simply be a strange babble..
   :Peace2:

And, edit/p.s. - in its day, will be the literal red moon.. and decreasing of the sun and moon's light by 1/3.. Joel's smokey day.. "the Earth will rock to and fro.. men's hearts failing them for fear.. "  but His "shall not be afraid should the mountains fall into the sea".. via Ps. 91 and 46. Real brave of 'us'/whomever in that day if it all be mere metaphor.. And come out of her my people - in thAt day, may be bigger than coming out of dead or worldly religion....yah.. I think the hail in Revelation may be debris.. came to mind when watching 9/11 footage.. columns of smoke.. metaphor? Or visible..? men's (modern) wars...

[marie glen]

p.s . - I was recently told - condescendingly so -- not here at the tent! That "the lion will eat straw like the ox" (Is.11:7) has already occurred, because it's metaphor. Really? ...so no animals any more in the kingdom? Or - they will still eat one another forever? :doh:

[eaglesway]

I hav no problems with literal applications accept when some one declares them the obvious truth when I disagree with them ;o)

I see many metaphors that have both an obvious literal meaning and deeper spiritual ones and even layers of spiritual meanings.

However in regards to the elelments burning with fire and the new earth(2 pet 3).... Peter just said(2 pet 2) that the world "that was" was "destroyed" with water..... but it wasnt really destroyed in the physical sense, was it?

In 2 Peter 3:6 Peter uses the word apoleto-(perished,ruined, lost) "through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." The world being the people, cities, communities, nations, systems of that time- not the actual earth.

In  2Peter 3:7 Peter uses the word apoleias (same) "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

Another tense of the same word Jesus uses when He says He came to seek and save that which was "lost". He obvioulsy did not mean physically destroyed and I hav a hard time when people want to pick and choose to use a word to mean one thing in one place...."Oh, but it cant mean that in these other places" whether they are universalists or not.

In other words, apoleia does not mean complete physical destruction very often if one does a complete study of its NT occurences.

Also... the word "elements" is the greek word stoicheion which is used in Hebrews 6 as "elementary principles" also in Colossians when Paul speaks to why we re subject ourselves to "elementary principles" or (kjv) "weak and beggarly elements".

In these places the word "stoicheion" does nopt refer to physical elements but rather the principles upon which systems of belief are founded. Again... this is what I believe Peter is also speaking of, since He is the one who proclaimed that the heavens would receive Jesus "until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the ancients"(Acts 3:19)- which is the purging of lies and greed and oppression from the earth by the fire of the word of God.

in 2 Peter 3:10-11
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed(lythesetai- dissolved) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(heurethesetai.)

      11Since all these things are to be destroyed(Lythesetai-dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


Peter talks about the elements melting with fire and the new heavens and the new earth I believe he is saying the works of the earth, its governments, its systems of demonic principalities, and its errors and oppressive lies will be "Dissoloved(lythesetai), exposed(heuresethetai) and will melt away before the "brightness of His appearing", as in 2 Thess 1:7- 9

7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Which reads astoundlingly alike to Dan 7:10

This again is the same as 2 Peter 3, speaking of the coming of the Lord, with "10,000s of 10,000s" as in so many places and cannot be a physical destruction of the earth because "the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the ancients"- has just begun.

The heavens passing, melting away, rolling back like a scroll, etc- to me all references of what will occur at the very real and literal return, appearing, UNVEILING(apocalupto) of the Lord- Fire in His eyes, flaming sword from His mouth, surrounded by flaminf angels- which will change the world in many literal and spiritual ways-

but not physically destroy it.

For this reason the whole creation groans for the "revelation of the children of God" which is at the "resurrection of our bodies"(Romans 8) which is at His appearing(1 Cor 15, Rev 20) and will set all creation free from futility. GLORY!

So I am not trying to prove a point so much as to say it not so clear to me thatit is  mainly a physical destruction by fire and I dont think that co-ordinates well with the rest of the verses about the end of this age. Remember Peter says right there in 2 Peter 3 "with the Lord a day is as one thousand years"......"but we look forward to a renewed heaven and a renewed earth wherein dwells righteousness(possible reading).

It also trouble me that many universalists want to question the translations when it refers to our particular issue- but stand on them like they are rock solid in other areas- eschatology being one main area- because many things had to be twisted to present this god who burns the world, burns people forever, etc., etc.

I am simply presenting my case for a non tsunami view ;o)

[marie glen]

Well.. time will tell.. We can know for certain all things will be subdued and made new.. For my part I believe Armageddon will be man's doings and will be a literal (temporary) lake of fire - earthly. Which to me, the three mentions in Rev. - where they are - could make hell and all its dregs to disappear from the understanding of the scripture..

The ones of chapter 19 being cast there being institutions of man.. followed by a literal millennium, an age called the judgment, and a literal new earth, whether physically dissolved or once again simply the works on the planet.. either way, lof.. at Jesus' return "for whom we await from heaven" Paul wrote.. and then the "all in all" event and vivification of all who had not "put on immortality" at Jesus' return. Our God being a consuming fire.. literal as well as spiritual.. otherwise He would not have told Moses to have the ppl stay back lest He break forth and consume them.. that mortality cannot stand/endure in His (full) Presence.

I still believe it is a tsunami of metaphor.. and read recently how the churches have seemed determined to spiritualize all scripture, to me an extreme - like no spiritualizing would be. Both being (imo) an angel of (false) light :gsmile:

I also believe in reading as literal, what can be.. and that the metaphor does not cancel.. I believe even Rev. - told via symbols, etc.. is still literal.. beasts for example, not physical animals, but governing of men being the literal. And very literal. Rev. 20:4d being literally in the world today.. not only spiritually.. using just as an example..

[sheila]

Proverbs18;16-18 A Gift[eternal life free gift for all men]Opens the way for the giver and ushers him into the presence of the great


    THE FIRST to present his case seems right...until another come forward and questions him


CASTING THE LOT SETTLES DISPUTES AND KEEPS STRONG OPPONETS APART.

the ATONEMENT...the lots...the Lord's goat and Azazael's[scape]goat....seperates those with strong enmity[the woman's seed from the

serpents] Jesus seperates...satan andhis[demons]intoLOFprepared for them......and man....with his free gift inherits the kingdomof

  the love of his son.

   BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE YE SONS OF MEN ARE NOT CONSUMED[Rev 20;9]Matt 13;41

I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY[mankind] God is not imputing our trespasses against us.Psalms32;2,Romans4;8


what is consumed in this coming and Great deliverance? the 'wicked' one?  ALL that is ,has been or could be against you...for

if God be for us..who can be against us?

NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST YOU SHALL SUCEED

[rosered]

 I believe that  Jesus  testimony  is true in every sense of the WORD .......

  How does God reach somes carnal nature ? it says by parables [teachings and comparing them to earthly things ].

Being carnal is    a first born nature  that we become  spiritual  by nature in being born again  a new   by Holy Spirit & fire  and it is a
TRUE WITNESS ..
  and that also explains   the healing process  ,  because to me it seems that is what was lost   in sin [ the temporary things of this life ]   as carnal we tend to cling too , because we taste, touch and  see , hear  and  handle it all the time , what was lost  was our innocence  or godly nature or relationship  with a HOLY GOD  being in His presence .
I do believe  part of the holiness is fire   and purity  that brings righteous judgement  by testing the quality  of what we are made of  , if it is Spirit   and it last  forever and if not it is destroyed  by the very fire of the Holy Spirit cleansing us . those works of satan that are to be  burned up  as futility and vanity as nothing.  showing  pridefulness is injured . always thinking your right  explains lots of divisions   and religions in the process of learning what is right in the sight of God . usually  it is suffering for   being right because the world will hate  you , or being wrong  and than God will despise  your fruit /doings , but suffering for the good   does bear   good fruits  of the Spirit , learning the process , The Fruit of the Holy Spirit is a biblical term that sums up nine attributes of a person or community living in accord with the Holy Spirit, according to chapter 5 of the Epistle to the Galatians: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.   these things ,  GOD  IS by nature  , verses the anger and  hate and  swift  judging somthing    and gossip and malice and injury , stealing and killing someone's good  character by evil doing  in slander   accusing them before GOD  day and night  , in ignorance and  in the knowing it is wrong  to do . works of the devil .
   1 Peter 4:12-19  (AMPC)
12 Beloved, do not be amazed and bewildered at the fiery ordeal which is taking place to test your quality, as though something strange (unusual and alien to you and your position) were befalling you.

13 But insofar as you are sharing Christ's sufferings, rejoice, so that when His glory [full of radiance and splendor] is revealed, you may also rejoice with triumph [exultantly].

14 If you are censured and suffer abuse [because you bear] the name of Christ, blessed [are you—happy, fortunate, to be envied, with life-joy, and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of your outward condition], because the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of God, is resting upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or any sort of criminal, or as a mischief-maker (a meddler) in the affairs of others [infringing on their rights].

16 But if [one is ill-treated and suffers] as a Christian [which he is contemptuously called], let him not be ashamed, but give glory to God that he is [deemed worthy to suffer] in this name.

17 For the time [has arrived] for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will [be] the end of those who do not respect or believe or obey the good news (the Gospel) of God?

18 And if the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the godless and wicked?

19 Therefore, those who are ill-treated and suffer in accordance with God's will must do right and commit their souls [in charge as a deposit] to the One Who created [them] and will never fail [them].

  Seems our faith is to GOD  and God will let us know our shortcomings   by   the fruit  of our doings  it produces in us 

Guilt  can and does make us know   the HOLY SPIRIT  is working in us  , when you realize    that conviction is   showing us  not to stay in that place  of  suffering for wrong doing   , this chastisement    is producing repentance   in us  and comforts us to know  that GOD IS NEAR   and our conscience  lets  us know if we are forgiven to forgive those  whom have wronged us also
  with the mind of Christ  , doing the FATHERS  will or desires of HIS heart .

Now some never learn  the truth and are set free from the evil  doing  under the same law of sin and death , so God  does sear their conscience with a hot iron 

  1 Tim 4 1Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.

3They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth....

  the will worshipping   of mens  teachings with others mens teachings  and  false christs [ messengers of light whose light is darkness  and how great is that darkness ?]  creating a mass of  destruction   whose end is worse off than if they had never known  any faith in  GOD in the first place .........

  the law is good , but we must  choose the good out of the law of good and evil   in order for the perfect [ Christ ] grace of God  to come .

or it does create in us  the fruit of hypocrisy  making us liars  and false  witnesses   against the TRUTH   .

   I think it is extremely  personal   and extremely  an individual   working in each and everyone of us . each in their own order 

we are told to be faithful in  just a few things  and the Lord will make us ruler of many things . because the law is set up  to  teach us right from wrong  and discern the spirits working in  and on us !!   not judging others  by being a busy body in others souls  and conscience   awareness of GOD  .IT is by any  fruits  good or bad  we  know  what  hypocrisy is !!


  If it were possible even the very elect of GOD  would be deceived if it were possible  . but the Holy Spirit of TRUTH  will not allow  IT to happen when we are   trying to please GOD  in the only way  we know how to .
  If you break one law you broke them all   is a pretty serious  offense  ..... seems it is impossible to keep all the law without JESUS CHRIST  ruling  our hearts  to me .........
Being the King of everything  and everyone  and all will bow the knee  and confess the LORD each in their own order that come and are called to do so ............ keep praying for GOD to heal the nations .

   

[rosered]

Proverbs18;16-18 A Gift[eternal life free gift for all men]Opens the way for the giver and ushers him into the presence of the great


    THE FIRST to present his case seems right...until another come forward and questions him


CASTING THE LOT SETTLES DISPUTES AND KEEPS STRONG OPPONETS APART.

the ATONEMENT...the lots...the Lord's goat and Azazael's[scape]goat....seperates those with strong enmity[the woman's seed from the

serpents] Jesus seperates...satan andhis[demons]intoLOFprepared for them......and man....with his free gift inherits the kingdomof

  the love of his son.

   BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE YE SONS OF MEN ARE NOT CONSUMED[Rev 20;9]Matt 13;41

I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY[mankind] God is not imputing our trespasses against us.Psalms32;2,Romans4;8


what is consumed in this coming and Great deliverance? the 'wicked' one?  ALL that is ,has been or could be against you...for

if God be for us..who can be against us?

NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST YOU SHALL SUCEED

  we were posting at the same time sis !!!!!!!!!!!   yes deliver us from the evil one   , Paul spoke of wanting to do good and evil was present  and still working  death in him!!!!!!!!!!  Evil hides itself in the body of death [carnal nature  , made weak and beggarly on purpose ]   and of the devil  , earthly sensual and devilish,   to show us all  we can do nothing without GOD  and Jesus ruling our hearts   now !   
    :HeartThrob:
  deliver us JESUS !!!     THE LORDS PRAYER    !

[marie glen]

Amen, sisters (ha ha! Literally and, metaphorically! :laughing7: )

I was having some serious thoughts and need to look into it further, but it seems to me the people whose foreheads are sealed in Rev. chapter 7 (accomplishes virgin minds?) are the same ones who “come out of tribulation” later in Rev. I’ve never assumed, and still don’t, that to be what some folks in the churches believe called “the tribulation” but that this life is two things - no make that three things but they are one - imperfection - tribulation - apocalypse. Or this life is tribulation and apocalypse - with God’s great joy and happiness - of course, but the two are because of the first - imperfection. It’s kind of a dis-ease, the wages/result of missing the mark is death.. sin, imperfection.. just a speck of it is a bottomless pit, an abyss of possibility.. that all must be innoculatedagainst. And how does a vaccination work?

All are literally, as we know, going to be like Him. Most importantly in character. But also “He will make our imperfect, dying body to be like His glorified body” Philippians?

But it dawned on me that some believers may fear the book of Revelation.. if there are earthly troubles described. Trouble is Jesus said to know signs, for there to be watchmen. Hooray for metaphor and the spiritual gems in both life and God’s Word.. And a foot cannot be an elbow (lol) and each person speaks what has been ministered to their heart and understanding.

It’s of the natural person to think everything is or, instead of and.. I think the scripture has to be literal and metaphor.. not or.

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:Chinscratch: Like “elements” which does include of the universe.. and interestingly enough “letters, but not written.. but the sound of” and how does it say He created the universe?

“will melt with ferocious heat” may indeed I’m quite sure, have an inner application, but.. And dissolved includes stretching away.. loosing.. definitely an inner truth.. “Ancient of days” Daniel said, “and heaven and earth fled away from His face...” - sorry that’s very poorly paraphrased..

[rosered]

  Hi sister Marie !!   :girlheart: 

I have always associated  '' tribulation  period ''    as birth pangs from a few scriptures  in the old and new testaments .
I know according to   Revelation 12    the  birthing of the sons of God  or children of the day  or Light    etc.  is about    delivery in one day .......

Isaiah 66

Rejoice with Jerusalem
7Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before she was in pain, she delivered a boy.

8Who has heard of such as this? Who has seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be delivered in an instant? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children.

9Shall I bring a baby to the point of birth and not deliver it?" says the LORD. "Or will I who deliver close the womb?" says your God.

  I see rev 12  as the woman or the body of CHRIST  AS the true church    birthing the sons of God   because it it those whom have the  testimony of Jesus Christ with them and keep the commandments of God   , love GOD FIRST and  everyone as you do yourselves ........ just good old fashioned    neighbourly good manners   .  this is in the day of the LORD  that John is speaking of   I can see all of Revelation, revealing   of Jesus Christ  as  the DAY of the LORD   where all these things  take place in .

16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

It may well be  the DAY or 1000 year reign  of JESUS CHRIST      when the prophecies are  all  accomplished in .
I cannot say it is or it is not one way or the other ,    perhaps to some it is and to others it is not   all happening in  their  time

of deliverance       the  minute a spiritual  birth is   made it seems the great dagon wants to devour it .......

  may explain    why  precious in the  sight of the Lord ar the death of his saints or holy ones ..... 

  I wonder  many times  just what it all means ..........