Hi! I came across these articles from another website created by Christian Universalists. Some of their articles are a bit confusing to me, and their interpretation of Christian living is very strict compared to others, but they have an interpretation of the second death that I had not heard of before and was wondering if some of you had come across it. You can read it here:
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/restitution/seconddeath.htm
Basically they are saying that all who accept Christ while alive on earth and obey His commands are sanctified during life and will basically go straight to heaven and not have to suffer through the second death.
However, the second death occurs when all the sinners and nonbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which destroys all hell and death. Afterwards is when there will be no more suffering, no more death, every knee will bow, everyone will rejoice in our Savior, etc. It makes sense to me, although the concept is so new to me that part of me is hesitant, or even afraid to believe it fully yet. It just sounds too good to be true!
I was thinking about how the traditional interpretation of all the sinners being thrown into the Lake of Fire, followed by rejoicing, doesn't make much sense. Do God's Holy people really want to rejoice at a massive massacre that leaves most of the people of the world in endless torment? Would we really be praising our Savior and King?
It seems to me that the Lake of Fire and the Second Death could be the way of purging the last of the evil out of the souls how avoided the light. You know how John 3:20 says "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed." I think those people may be the ones who retreat into "hell" and stay away from heaven after dead, out of their own choice. If you ever heard of the NDE of Dr. George Ritche or Howard Storm, they saw people in this state, people who had died and had rejected the love of Jesus. So the Lake of Fire may be the final way the Lord reconciles them all to Him.
Then I was wondering, if this is true, how horrible would the second death be? It's certainly something I'd rather avoid....However I found some scripture that made me feel encouraged. In general, God himself is depicted as a consuming or refining fire in many instances in the Bible. One of the verses I found, I can't find now and wish I had written it down. It said something about how the Lord sent down His fire on people but even after burning them in the fire, they still had hardened hearts and wouldn't turn to Him. Obviously He couldn't have meant a literal fire because anyone in their right mind would beg for the torture to stop and turn to Him right away, so it must have been symbolic of how He chastened them to lead them to Him but they still were not ready to accept Him.
Other verses I found that show that the Lord uses punishment or fire to draw people to Him are:
"You will know that I am the Lord, when I inflict punishment on you and within you am proved to be holy. I will send a plague upon you and make blood flow in your streets. The slain will fall within you, with the sword against you on every side. Then you will know that I am the Lord. No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord." Ezekiel 28:22 - 24
"See, the storm of the Lord will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked. The anger of the Lord will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his hearts. In days to come you will understand it clearly." Jeremiah 24:19 - 20
"You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me," declares the Lord. Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel, prepare to meet your God" Amos 4:11
And then I saw "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love." Lamentations 3:31 - 32.
My thinking is that the Lake of fire will be different for each individual, depending on how they lived their lives, and will perfectly draw all people back to God. I'd love to hear some of your interpretations of the Second Death and Lake of Fire and see if it matches this article's viewpoint.
I believe the fire of God is His love and light.
If one holds to darkness, then the light is like a fire to the secrets of their hearts. It will bring up the impurities, because in His presence no flesh can stand.
Notice that in Rev in two places Jesus is depicted as having fire in His eyes. His face is shining like the sun shining in its strength. The "eye is the light of the soul" and "if your eye is single your whole body will be full of light"
In Hebrews 4 it is written...
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Everything is uncovered and laid bare when we stand before those eyes of fire, and it is good. His word reveals the secrets of our hearts--"I am He that tries the reins and the hearts". For believers, this leads to confession cleansing and victory.
"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD. 29"Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock? 30"Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other....
Moses spoke to the rock and water came forth, and so it is with the fire of God- it's purpose is always to purify and create a pathway for the living water to flow.
We have been having an extended debate here on Tentmaker of late about whether the lake of fire symbolizes an experience that awaits the wicked and the rebellious in the age to come. I believe it does, as Jesus, Peter and Paul all spoke of it in the future tense as well as speaking of the fire of God in the presnt tense regarding trials and tribulations and the recompense in this life of those who do evil.
But to me, Mt 25:46, Rev 14:10, 2 Thess 1:8, Rev 20:15 and Romans 1:4-16 all clearly show that there remains a post mortem experience in the fire of His presence and the the penetrating light of His gaze for some.
The main thing tho, is that we understand that there is no such thing in the scriptures as a punishment of torment that lasts forever and ever. The lake of fire is the second death. In 1 Cor 15 Paul says,
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be ALL IN ALL.
If the second death lasted forever the death could not be abolished. Those in it could not be subjected. God could never become ALL IN ALL.
But as Jesus died for all and said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"- we know that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess- whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth- that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.(Phi 2)
We know that God's purpose from the very beginning was to become all in all. To teach His creation the glory of love through CHRIST CRUCIFIED.
Rom 11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Eph 1:9-11
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Whatever one believes about the lake of fire, it is NOT the eternal hell of torment so many believe in. IMO, That is just a myth of the Romans that got inserted into the gospel by men intent on dominated their subjects in the theocracy of Rome.
I do believe Gods WORD and have always struggled to write down what is in my heart ,,
I never could read a lot of men's ''revelations '' and they can be excellent and very helpful .
But God always made it hard for me to study them much ...
He let me study in the word meanings and Hebrew and Greek meanings and always , always asked Jesus , just like a little child does , what is hell ? what is heaven Lord ? what is the second death ? what is Love ? What do these things mean Lord ? soooo many many questions , just like a 3 year old asking and trusting your elders with respect and honor and child like faith He would answer in the right time and right way ..
when riding one lawn mower or doing dishes or just reading His word in quiet times .
And have ever been so comforted with what I believe is the Lord helping me to Know Him in a personal way that does give us , such a peace and confidence to speak .
I do believe the scriptures interpret themselves with other scriptures and give us answers by the Holy Spirit quickening them for us and give a moving life giving peace and joy in that moment and are so precious to us , Jesus Christ testimony is the Spirit of prophecy and everything is being fulfilled from the old law and prophets when God spoke though them , Jesus is a spiritual Life giving Word . This union of both witnesses God the Fathers Spirit and the Sons Spirit
It took a long time and do believe it is the Lord GOD ALMIGHTY are ONE and all with Him [ Holy Spirit ] that keeps the hunger and thirst for His Word and Spirit alive and working in us as we do get to grow in truth and grace by His own anointing[Light is Christ] of His Word by His own Spirit of truth .
And all we can do is share it , put it out there , like food and water for the ''poor in spirit '' for their is the Kingdom of Heaven promise of God for they will be filled Matt 5 .
This is my belief of now , and my own thoughts about the second death after the Lord giving some understanding on the first death process some get to experience in this life and it is prophecy in my own opinion , being in Adam all die
, it is the first attempt we all take in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and begin to judge by our own understanding and carnal minds , that Day no matter how long it takes is the day we die in Adam / mankind and are asleep spiritually speaking , because the SPIRIT IS LIFE
and this Life in Christ is missed out on when you are sin sick and asleep , it is just a dark and empty hole [grave] that nothing in the world can fill and ever needy and wanting and never satisfied . truly Sin in missing the mark of the higher calling to ''come up here and be with Him '' as you are experiencing , the body of death and the depths of satan , adversity and unsettled thoughts and confusion and fear and torment of not knowing God or not knowing anything , or when your life will end in this life of never knowing anything more about God or His ways
. THIS being the reason we are to take up our Cross and Follow Jesus , this narrow path given and proven by The cross of the Lord Jesus Christ to me, and represents a very powerful truth
It is an open show of dying to the world and all that is in it , that pomp and worldly wisdom and satan's power being the temptation and its lusts , to fall from grace into a world of hurt and many many sorrows knowing corruption at its worst .
To me , in my own understanding at this time , I do see the LORD JESUS CHRIST as the Victory that overcome the world , and death , being the carnal mind that death dwells in and thrives on
HIS POWER GIVEN BY GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF [ Full of the HOLY SPIRIT without measure] took death captive and holds it , from that cross and gives this freedom from the fear of death and allots us measures of The HOLY SPIRIT fruits of truth and grace to keep us in HIM , Till we have enough of His own Holy Spirit and WORD to over come the evil one of this wicked world ... He keeps His promises , we are to keep ours by trying and not give up. He is faithful as promised and the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself as the temptations begin to cease and small victories in Christ rise in your life by answered prayers that help us believe and trust in Him more and more
To Whom He desires to when they ask Him with a true heart of repentance and hating the evil that is in the world and all its cruelty by nature asking Jesus to EXPOSE IT BY THE LIGHT and change you and be like HIM and keep asking and not let up on asking Him as honest as you can be before Him .
The heart is desperately wicked above all else and who can know it ? How many times have you thought , I got this and FAIL THE TEST!?
many times over again and again , the prophecy of indeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak , the Spirit is willing to help us , but in our weak condition we do not seek the Spirit s help but fail ,learning not to trust in ourselves at all or anyone .....BUT LET GOD JUDGE , He is an excellent judge and knows all hearts and what they are capable of , when Pride is hidden in there , it has to be BURNED OUT , the Holy Spirit and fire is destroying all the liars and thieves and evil of Babylons spirit , She is the great whore of the earth and where the false prophets are found in and speak of their own ways , that are not of God but trying to be GOD and it is pride , spiritual warfare those sitting in the high places they ought not be in seeing themselves as the Christ anointed of God or being God Himself sitting on the seat of your heart ruling in the most awful of ways
Here is where I see the second death , Blessed is He who is in the first resurrection [IN CHRIST ] HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE ] the second death will not harm you , To me and this is my own faith Revelations is the revealing of JESUS CHRIST IN THE LORDS DAY and destroying Babylon in the world and earth / mankind Spoken as a promise of Gods Spirit Himself , not giving His own Glory to another spoken from the law & prophets of old and that is anything and everything found in you will be removed by His Day and full light and presence
In the presence of the Lamb , His wrath is righteous because HE DIED FOR YOU and will not tolerate any evil of any kind and that ''spirit of pride '' has to go , all will be humbled by HIM , no matter what Babylon is falling it is the doctrine of devils , spirits in a bad way themselves
When you are in Christ finally and fully and completely , nothing can harm you , none of those lies can harm you [Rev 9] , no sting of death can torment you , the fear has been filled with the LOVE OF GOD working in you , no voices will you hear or listen to , Because the Voice of many crystal clear waters from above is all you ever needed and wanted and will obey ... you will not obey them voices that are below ever again .
:hiya: hello, MichelleSR, and welcome to tentmaker forum!
It does, in some ways, seem too good to be true, doesn't it!? But only because of our own thinking or having been taught.. Because if our heavenly Father is perfect.. which surely He is! Then the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it) can only be the best one possible! (Surely?!)
Anymore, I think of the "2nd death" (lake of fire) as, I agree, the not yet saved's dying to sin and self.. the lower, imperfect and flawed nature being purged from them. It makes sense to me, as they've already died once.. so a second dying cannot be annihilation, as I once thought, and thought very few would end up there (in lake of fire, second death) -
but according to God's Word:
that "He is gathering all things in heaven and earth into Jesus" 1 Colossians 1:20 and Ephesians 1:10;
that "all nations will come and worship before you" Rev 15:4;
"all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Thee" Ps 22:27;
"Every knee shall bend" written three times, Ro 14:11, Phil 2:10, Is 45:23 (..all knees shall bend..)
And of course 1 Corinthians 15:28, "the Father will be all in all".. and many more.
Surely(?) the "all" can only be "all"!
I also find myself believing (an idea i have, that) Judgment 'Day' (represented by the five days between Fall Feasts of Day of Atonement and Tabernacles) will be an 'age' lasting roughly 500 years, and believe many of the resurrected unsaved will repent and follow Jesus before end of Judgment 'Day' and will avoid the lake of fire, having experienced it by then, much like we have as remorse, 'burning shame'.. etc. :dontknow: :smile:
Michelle---YUP! You are seeing it!
:HeartThrob:
Amen ....... encourage one another as we see the DAY approaching :dsunny:
This whole thread is such a blessing !!
I love that some are bowing the knee now and confessing Christ Jesus , take heart ......,all will in the end ......
Give that Honor and praise and Glory to GOD .. Thanking the Lord for His Holy Spirit
and everyone of you and this place ......
God love and bless you all........ :HeartThrob:
I GET IT!!!
Okay, maybe you'll think I'm nuts but I seriously had a "Eureka!" moment yesterday. I pondered this concept all day long and some of what I might say may really not align with what a lot of you believe.
Nonetheless I feel like it reconciles all the seeming contradictions between personal testimonies, near death experiences, and scripture. I'm just going to go with it because it makes me feel personally at peace and able to see the Lord in a positive way and feel optimistic about the salvation of everyone.
Sooo...I kept thinking about reincarnation. I know most people here don't believe in it, but I think it explains so many things about why people are so different and also why people are in so many different places on their path toward God. Some downright hate the Lord! And some are so devoted to Him. And some say they are devoted to Him but their actions display otherwise. Before I became a Christian, I didn't care. I tried to see the good in everyone. When I converted though and believed in the doctrine of eternal damnation, I suddenly saw the evil in everyone and panicked!
I used to believe in reincarnation I believed, based on some near death testimonies, that we went back and forth between the physical world and the spirit world and that after each death, we had a judgment and experienced temporary heavenly or hellish experiences in the spirit world based on how we lived our lives. It also just made such logical sense and aligns with the "reap what you sow" truth as well. But when I became a Christian I thought I'd have to stop believing in reincarnation because of Hebrews 9:27 (and now I think that verse is taken out of context to mean something it doesn't).
I was very sad though about rejecting the concept of reincarnation. I wanted to believe that we had more opportunities in the future to overcome trials and grow and become better versions of ourselves.Also, who can get everything right in just one lifetime?
When I converted to Christianity,I thought that reincarnation must be a lie from the devil, and I actually thought that most of what I used to believe was a lie from the devil. Now that I thought I only had one life to live, this made me feel very anxious about getting everything right as soon as possible because I won't have any more opportunities later.
Anyway, yesterday I kept thinking, "What is the first death?" Most people think of it as the death of their bodies, but in my mind I kept hearing over and over again, "spiritual death." Well, that means the fall. "Death" is just a change of state. So if you believe in reincarnation you would believe that we came from God, and since God has been here forever, we must have all somehow been here forever too. There are numerous references in the Bible about how God knew us before we were born. Also, how can you create something from nothing? Anyway, in the beginning, we were all perfect because we were with God. But then we "died" and fell into our sinful state.
So the second death is the death of the sinful nature. Everyone is being purified by fire for this to happen. That means that we are in the lake of fire right now!
Doesn't that make sense? Do you notice how every cowardly person, every liar, every adulterer, and so on is thrown into the lake? Well, isn't that just about EVERYONE? I used to get so scared when I read that. I thought, "who could possibly be on the other side?" Well, it's all the saints, all the ones who were purified by the Lord and whose sinful nature had died. Notice how Jesus told the Pharisees that the prostitutes would enter heaven before they did - well it makes sense if you think of them "emerging" from the lake before them or achieving salvation in Christ before them, in whatever physical lifetime they may be in.
It all fits. Even baptism represents this second death. The water symbolizes washing away our sins and dying to our sins but the Bible says that He will baptize us with fire - it fits with the lake of fire perfectly. It also goes along with God's character to forgive repeatedly. Does it make sense that He would only give us one lifetime to overcome our sinful nature completely? Or does it make more sense that He would give us many opportunities to grow and become more like Him?
Anyway, I was contemplating whether or not to believe this could all be true. It just sounds too good to be true, too loving, too forgiving, too kind. But isn't that how God is? Really, who do you possibly know who is holy and sanctified enough to not be thrown into the lake of fire after death (if you think about it the way it is traditionally taught). I can't think of a single person. It makes more sense to see it as the purifying, sanctifying fire that we are all experiencing this very moment.
I emailed a pastor that I had found that I admired and asked him if he believed universalism could be true. He told me to just believe whatever gives me the most peace and hope. And I thought, "Just choose to believe whatever I want? Whatever makes me happy? Shouldn't I have to research it first, examine it, discuss it, pray about it, meditate on it, etc. before I can truly believe it?"
And in my mind I heard "little child" and remembered how Jesus taught about how our faith and disposition should be. And I thought, "that is exactly how Jesus wants me to believe." No five-year-old would conduct an in depth research to determine if the God they worship loves them.
I am feeling better although I don't know anyone else who has this viewpoint. Anyway, I am starting to feel a love for the Lord that I hadn't felt before. I feel a bit afraid to even share this view here, although I'm glad that everyone here is open-minded and kind.
Quote from: rosered on September 13, 2016, 02:14:43 PM
I do believe Gods WORD and have always struggled to write down what is in my heart ,,
I never could read a lot of men's "revelations " and they can be excellent and very helpful .
But God always made it hard for me to study them much ...
He let me study in the word meanings and Hebrew and Greek meanings and always , always asked Jesus , just like a little child does , what is hell ? what is heaven Lord ? what is the second death ? what is Love ? What do these things mean Lord ? soooo many many questions , just like a 3 year old asking and trusting your elders with respect and honor and child like faith He would answer in the right time and right way ..
when riding one lawn mower or doing dishes or just reading His word in quiet times .
And have ever been so comforted with what I believe is the Lord helping me to Know Him in a personal way that does give us , such a peace and confidence to speak .
I do believe the scriptures interpret themselves with other scriptures and give us answers by the Holy Spirit quickening them for us and give a moving life giving peace and joy in that moment and are so precious to us , Jesus Christ testimony is the Spirit of prophecy and everything is being fulfilled from the old law and prophets when God spoke though them , Jesus is a spiritual Life giving Word . This union of both witnesses God the Fathers Spirit and the Sons Spirit
It took a long time and do believe it is the Lord GOD ALMIGHTY are ONE and all with Him [ Holy Spirit ] that keeps the hunger and thirst for His Word and Spirit alive and working in us as we do get to grow in truth and grace by His own anointing[Light is Christ] of His Word by His own Spirit of truth .
And all we can do is share it , put it out there , like food and water for the "poor in spirit " for their is the Kingdom of Heaven promise of God for they will be filled Matt 5 .
This is my belief of now , and my own thoughts about the second death after the Lord giving some understanding on the first death process some get to experience in this life and it is prophecy in my own opinion , being in Adam all die
, it is the first attempt we all take in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and begin to judge by our own understanding and carnal minds , that Day no matter how long it takes is the day we die in Adam / mankind and are asleep spiritually speaking , because the SPIRIT IS LIFE
and this Life in Christ is missed out on when you are sin sick and asleep , it is just a dark and empty hole [grave] that nothing in the world can fill and ever needy and wanting and never satisfied . truly Sin in missing the mark of the higher calling to "come up here and be with Him " as you are experiencing , the body of death and the depths of satan , adversity and unsettled thoughts and confusion and fear and torment of not knowing God or not knowing anything , or when your life will end in this life of never knowing anything more about God or His ways
. THIS being the reason we are to take up our Cross and Follow Jesus , this narrow path given and proven by The cross of the Lord Jesus Christ to me, and represents a very powerful truth
It is an open show of dying to the world and all that is in it , that pomp and worldly wisdom and satan's power being the temptation and its lusts , to fall from grace into a world of hurt and many many sorrows knowing corruption at its worst .
To me , in my own understanding at this time , I do see the LORD JESUS CHRIST as the Victory that overcome the world , and death , being the carnal mind that death dwells in and thrives on
HIS POWER GIVEN BY GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF [ Full of the HOLY SPIRIT without measure] took death captive and holds it , from that cross and gives this freedom from the fear of death and allots us measures of The HOLY SPIRIT fruits of truth and grace to keep us in HIM , Till we have enough of His own Holy Spirit and WORD to over come the evil one of this wicked world ... He keeps His promises , we are to keep ours by trying and not give up. He is faithful as promised and the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself as the temptations begin to cease and small victories in Christ rise in your life by answered prayers that help us believe and trust in Him more and more
To Whom He desires to when they ask Him with a true heart of repentance and hating the evil that is in the world and all its cruelty by nature asking Jesus to EXPOSE IT BY THE LIGHT and change you and be like HIM and keep asking and not let up on asking Him as honest as you can be before Him .
The heart is desperately wicked above all else and who can know it ? How many times have you thought , I got this and FAIL THE TEST!?
many times over again and again , the prophecy of indeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak , the Spirit is willing to help us , but in our weak condition we do not seek the Spirit s help but fail ,learning not to trust in ourselves at all or anyone .....BUT LET GOD JUDGE , He is an excellent judge and knows all hearts and what they are capable of , when Pride is hidden in there , it has to be BURNED OUT , the Holy Spirit and fire is destroying all the liars and thieves and evil of Babylons spirit , She is the great whore of the earth and where the false prophets are found in and speak of their own ways , that are not of God but trying to be GOD and it is pride , spiritual warfare those sitting in the high places they ought not be in seeing themselves as the Christ anointed of God or being God Himself sitting on the seat of your heart ruling in the most awful of ways
Here is where I see the second death , Blessed is He who is in the first resurrection [IN CHRIST ] HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE ] the second death will not harm you , To me and this is my own faith Revelations is the revealing of JESUS CHRIST IN THE LORDS DAY and destroying Babylon in the world and earth / mankind Spoken as a promise of Gods Spirit Himself , not giving His own Glory to another spoken from the law & prophets of old and that is anything and everything found in you will be removed by His Day and full light and presence
In the presence of the Lamb , His wrath is righteous because HE DIED FOR YOU and will not tolerate any evil of any kind and that "spirit of pride " has to go , all will be humbled by HIM , no matter what Babylon is falling it is the doctrine of devils , spirits in a bad way themselves
When you are in Christ finally and fully and completely , nothing can harm you , none of those lies can harm you [Rev 9] , no sting of death can torment you , the fear has been filled with the LOVE OF GOD working in you , no voices will you hear or listen to , Because the Voice of many crystal clear waters from above is all you ever needed and wanted and will obey ... you will not obey them voices that are below ever again .
Rose, another great post! This is one of those that I enjoyed reading over and over. God has been so gracious to give you many insights. I'm glad you're here. :dsunny:
Pat
God bless your heart Pat :HeartThrob:
As you can tell by now , God deals with us all in many different ways , and though many different peoples . but until I took Jesus Christ as a personal savior , making it intimate and real and close and
Until the light bulb moment , when the Lord revealed that the Kingdom of God is in you Luke 17 I sure had been looking everywhere else :laughing7:
Young's Literal Translation
nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'
This changed my whole perspective , and am so glad you also can too!!! This sure makes a joy rise up within us huh?
Seeing the Word of God as a mirror brother and we really do look thought that glass / mirror darkly but when the Light shines on that mirror
and look into it we can begin to see a reflection of what kind of man JESUS CHRIST IS and can we see Him within us and that LOVE between us all
I thought of Paul's words we look into the mirror as Gods children 1 Cor 13 Love
...11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man,
I set aside childish ways. 12Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.
It really is a dawning within us and how far we come , by first being an enemy , to a stranger and friend to servant and than son , the family of God is a process yet being revealed in us all ..
The Bible ,WORD OF GOD is a powerful witness to be believed and followed and obeyed to the best of our abilities, the Holy Spirit is also as powerful as both become ALIVE within us moving and shaking and doing those LIVING works that only they can and promised to do , we will also grow in truth and grace as the the Father permits and gives the increase as we become complete /perfected by both the Father and the Son union working within His kingdom , namely us whom been given the blessing and honor to serve in the here and now .
From the Lamb of God would a new heavens and earth come to us new creatures in Christ [this anointing ]though HIM ONLY as an inheritance of ''all things '' are ours as we follow Him where ever He goes ''..
The Lamb Exalted
...12In a loud voice they said: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive 1 power and 2riches and 3wisdom and4 strength and 5honor and6 glory and 7blessing!"
this is the seven fold Spirit of God working in you mightily as His lamb and your inheritance from Him [the eyes of the Lord are upon us ] many scriptures comes to mind here ....
13And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever."
14And the four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped....
I praise THE LORD TODAY for you and all those whom are following the Lamb of God /Word of God / Our Lord Jesus Christ , so many names and so many beautiful truths to be counted and praised and so very thankful for ..
Rich is faith , where we were poor in spirit and faith and blessing and hope and Love mostly but everything is poured out from Him so everything will be yours , He Loves us that much , makes tears of joy and such gratitude flow like to rivers , don't it ? when it moves as Life within us ,,,,
We love being in the Spirit and crave it always and cannot wait till we are all in His Holy Spirit without end ... what a joy unspeakable and full of glory that will be as He keeps His word and promises , as to all that is good and Holy and pure and complete , HIS LOVE cannot fail . romans 9 ....
the inward man[spiritual] is being renewed day by day as more Light and knowlege of Him is given and the old outer man[natural] is perishing in that same manner .
:HeartThrob: God bless and keep you always
"It took a long time and do believe it is the Lord GOD ALMIGHTY are ONE and all with Him [ Holy Spirit ] that keeps the hunger and thirst for His Word and Spirit alive and working in us as we do get to grow in truth and grace by His own anointing[Light is Christ] of His Word by His own Spirit of truth . "
"He keeps His promises , we are to keep ours by trying and not give up. He is faithful as promised and the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself as the temptations begin to cease and small victories in Christ rise in your life by answered prayers that help us believe and trust in Him more and more " Rosered
Thank you :happyclap:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2016, 06:00:30 PM
"It took a long time and do believe it is the Lord GOD ALMIGHTY are ONE and all with Him [ Holy Spirit ] that keeps the hunger and thirst for His Word and Spirit alive and working in us as we do get to grow in truth and grace by His own anointing[Light is Christ] of His Word by His own Spirit of truth . "
"He keeps His promises , we are to keep ours by trying and not give up. He is faithful as promised and the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself as the temptations begin to cease and small victories in Christ rise in your life by answered prayers that help us believe and trust in Him more and more " Rosered
Thank you :happyclap:
I Thank God for you and all , He is helping us all , and Love and praise Him !! Love you bro ! :HeartThrob: love to you all
Thank you!
Your posts on the the second death helped me finally release my fear of death. Your journey is like a mirror world of the journey I have went through. And we appear to arrived at the same spot. So I know it is the truth. I don't need any more proof. Check out my matrix letters and see if they resonate with you.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-matrix-has-you/
Andrew
Quote from: Andrew on February 16, 2018, 06:36:29 AM
Thank you!
Your posts on the the second death helped me finally release my fear of death. Your journey is like a mirror world of the journey I have went through. And we appear to arrived at the same spot. So I know it is the truth. I don't need any more proof. Check out my matrix letters and see if they resonate with you.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-matrix-has-you/
Andrew
It seems MichelleSR has not been here for a couple of months now Andrew .,Bless your heart .
But I am always glad when anyone can Believe God , That is awesome news !! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
In this earth all men are from the 1st birth and that is probably based on Heaven as defined in Ge:1 as being from the surface of the earth to the clouds above. You are created as an eternal being and if you eat you can live forever. If you sin you go to an escape proof prison to pay for your sin. The sentence always ends at Judgment Day and when you come out of there your sins are left behind. That is your 2nd birth and you are like Angels in that you are immortal and you can never die, unless you break on of the laws in Re:21 as those ones cover immortals.
Fallen angels have to be put into the Pit before they can be sent to the fiery lake. No men go there when he does as the gates to hell remain locked until Judgement Day which is the next event after Satan is sent to the fiery lake with all the remaining fallen angels.
People were made less than perfect and the flaw was we did not know about good and evil yet in the new earth we do know about good and evil and we get to keep all our old rights. Angels is what we become only we have a sinless heart so we never sin.
Angels were not given the emotions that we use to become good parents and good shepherds to the ones we have been given dominion over so they were not given in marriage. That flaw is why Ge:6 turned out bad for everybody but a handful of people.
If our flaws are fixed when we exist in the new earth then their flaws will also be fixed and in the 3rd heaven they can be given in marriage and they will have one child each that is born perfected. God and the Holy Spirit and Christ have been down that road.
Once they have a child they also speak a universe into existence as it will become an inheritance for their child like this universe is an inheritance for Christ who happened to find a wife in the form of Mary of Bethany, aka the Beloved Disciple.
Posted by MHz
"In this earth all men are from the 1st birth and that is probably based on Heaven as defined in Ge:1 as being from the surface of the earth to the clouds above. You are created as an eternal being and if you eat you can live forever. If you sin you go to an escape proof prison to pay for your sin. The sentence always ends at Judgment Day and when you come out of there your sins are left behind. That is your 2nd birth and you are like Angels in that you are immortal and you can never die, unless you break on of the laws in Re:21 as those ones cover immortals.
Fallen angels have to be put into the Pit before they can be sent to the fiery lake. No men go there when he does as the gates to hell remain locked until Judgement Day which is the next event after Satan is sent to the fiery lake with all the remaining fallen angels.
People were made less than perfect and the flaw was we did not know about good and evil yet in the new earth we do know about good and evil and we get to keep all our old rights. Angels is what we become only we have a sinless heart so we never sin.
Angels were not given the emotions that we use to become good parents and good shepherds to the ones we have been given dominion over so they were not given in marriage. That flaw is why Ge:6 turned out bad for everybody but a handful of people.
If our flaws are fixed when we exist in the new earth then their flaws will also be fixed and in the 3rd heaven they can be given in marriage and they will have one child each that is born perfected. God and the Holy Spirit and Christ have been down that road.
Once they have a child they also speak a universe into existence as it will become an inheritance for their child like this universe is an inheritance for Christ who happened to find a wife in the form of Mary of Bethany, aka the Beloved Disciple."
Okay, it sounds like your dropping some knowledge here. Where are you getting your information from?
Andrew
Quote from: Andrew on February 18, 2018, 08:47:57 PM
In this earth all men are from the 1st birth and that is probably based on Heaven as defined in Ge:1 as being from the surface of the earth to the clouds above. You are created as an eternal being and if you eat you can live forever. If you sin you go to an escape proof prison to pay for your sin. The sentence always ends at Judgment Day and when you come out of there your sins are left behind. That is your 2nd birth and you are like Angels in that you are immortal and you can never die, unless you break on of the laws in Re:21 as those ones cover immortals.
Fallen angels have to be put into the Pit before they can be sent to the fiery lake. No men go there when he does as the gates to hell remain locked until Judgement Day which is the next event after Satan is sent to the fiery lake with all the remaining fallen angels.
Posted bu MHz
"People were made less than perfect and the flaw was we did not know about good and evil yet in the new earth we do know about good and evil and we get to keep all our old rights. Angels is what we become only we have a sinless heart so we never sin.
Angels were not given the emotions that we use to become good parents and good shepherds to the ones we have been given dominion over so they were not given in marriage. That flaw is why Ge:6 turned out bad for everybody but a handful of people.
If our flaws are fixed when we exist in the new earth then their flaws will also be fixed and in the 3rd heaven they can be given in marriage and they will have one child each that is born perfected. God and the Holy Spirit and Christ have been down that road.
Once they have a child they also speak a universe into existence as it will become an inheritance for their child like this universe is an inheritance for Christ who happened to find a wife in the form of Mary of Bethany, aka the Beloved Disciple."
Okay, it sounds like your dropping some knowledge here. Where are you getting your information from?
Andrew
Reading and talking about the Bible for about 30 years. By Bible I mean an e-bible that uses the 1611kjv text. Some parts have been read many times so new information is what I missed on the previous reads. I don't have to search for hours for an answer anymore and that helps the posts as the replies are faster. Hopefully in the debates I covered all the angles and if not somebody will point it out I'm sure.
The NT says some people will be children of the light and others will be children of the darkness. The 12 books listed after Daniel have prophecies that deal only with the transition from the iron/clay to the eternal kingdom. That is used to formulate a doctrine that points to universal salvation in a big way.
One of my better arguments against the trinity is in the verse below and it just promotes that God and the Holy Spirit and Christ are 3 individual beings that are the only ones to come from a place that is known as the 3rd heaven.
Does this verse support one person or two persons, thinking like a modern Lawyer helps.
1Co:15:27:
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.
Posted by rosered
"It seems MichelleSR has not been here for a couple of months now Andrew .,Bless your heart .
But I am always glad when anyone can Believe God , That is awesome news !!"
I know she's been gone for a while now, almost two years, but I just wished she would come back.
Here's what I'd say to her if she was still here.
"Although you have come into the truth about the spiritual death and reincarnation as fact, you still aren't fully on track. But you exhibited the God flow in certain parts of your post. He's like a ghost writer who inspires you to write what he is witnessing in the Heavenly realm. So you have made it far in the game. I think we're the same age - I'm thirty-six. You sound like a cool chick, but the lake of fire is not now here on earth; it comes in the future before the new birth."
Andrew
MHz
How would I find information regarding the concept you alluded to about the perfect child inheriting their own universe.
Quote from: Andrew on February 18, 2018, 09:39:21 PM
MHz
How would I find information regarding the concept you alluded to about the perfect child inheriting their own universe.
I search the Bible for similar terms and use the ones that are in the proper context. One topic would be that Jesus fell in love with Mary of Bethany, aka Beloved Disciple, and when He takes her to a mountain top to view the New earth as New Jerusalem land on it after coming from the 3rd heaven is like a husband showing His wife their 'new home'. Being like a bride is not the same as being the bride so the city is glorious but is is a city and not a wife.
M't:21:38:
But when the husbandmen saw the son,
they said among themselves,
This is the heir;
come,
let us kill him,
The attempt to kill him was first tried in Ge:6 as Noah and family were the last 5 fingered people alive on the planet and that is why God caused the flood, no 5 fingered people there would be no 'seed of Eve' to fulfill Ge:3:15. The 2nd was Herod and the slaughter of the innocents.
and let us seize on his inheritance.
the L. of fire is the Second Death....Death will be abolished, ALL death = the Lake of fire will, ultimately, be ABOLISHED. :dsunny:
The same is written here:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,[a] for the old heaven and the old earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer there.
....I've been thinking about this a lot lately - the LOF - and have been going on some about how I truly am becoming convinced that the LOF isn't anything like we Christians have ever thought. Though I don't like to make waves, my passion for all and only truth (in my understanding) far trumps it. :laughing7:
I happened to notice that the two mentions of LOF occur in the scriptures at these two times:
1 - At the Lord's visible return.
2 - And at, what very much appears to me, to be at the "all in all" event --> of 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 (26-28) and Revelation 21:1-5 when God "makes all things new".. ..the portion of the Revelation vision where John saw "a new heavens and a new Earth".
Previous to this, I have been going on (and on :doh: ) about how - because of the pattern of the Fall holy days (Leviticus 23) as a type and shadow (?) of the Lord's long second advent, like the Spring ones so perfectly foretold His first advent - I have come to believe that Judgment Day is actually an age of about 500 years. And believe this is when Jesus will finish the work of drawing all to Himself, John 12:32; and is when Psalm 22:27 will be fufilled - "All the ends of Earth will remember (Hebrew - come to their senses) and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him". And thus, I believe - no humans in LOF. :faint:
Note - the ones which go to LOF (in Revelation 19) at Jesus's visible return, I believe are not humans but an institution and a belief of modern man "active/alive" at the time of Jesus' visible return.
(I have another note, once I remember what it is, lol. Oh :doh: I remember, the reason I think about 500 years is because of that in between story, "after the thousand years" - the prophesied millennium of Jesus - during which Satan&co. are locked into the bottomless pit (of imperfection/darkness?) and when he is let out, he inspires to war once again and fire falls upon them.. After, which is the resurrection of those not yet saved and sealed, and "the judgment".) So, how long does that last acting out of Satan take? Using up some of the '500 years'.
Um, if you don't know the pattern of the ancient Fall holy days, this is basically meaningless to you? So briefly - the Fall holy days:
TRUMPETS - 10 days later - DAY OF ATONEMENT - 5 days later - TABERNACLES-->Rev.21:3 KJV or YLT, or interlinear
3 PEAKS of the Lord's visible on Earth 2nd advent (imo) being - HIS VISIBLE RETURN - 1000 years later - 'DAY' OF JUDGMENT / ATONEMENT - 500 years later - ALL THINGS NEW / GOD TO tabernacle ON EARTH WITH MANKIND (His family). :banana:
When quoting the verses in 2 Peter (just below) - I have been writing only 2 Peter, so I decided to look them up again and see if I can commit the verse numbers to memory.. And lo and behold, I do think I discovered something I thought interesting.
2 Peter 3:10-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 But the day *of the Lord* (kurios - lord, master) will come as a thief in the night, His visible return in fire w/ His angels, 2 Thess.1:7,8 in which the heavens the Greek can be atmosphere will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the *day of God* (theos - God) because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for NEW heavens and a NEW earth in-which-righteousness dwells. [Rev.21:1-5; 1 Cor.15:26-28's all in all event? /imo]
Thanks for bearing with me.. :Peace2:
God bless
..I wanted to clarify just a little.. (imo)
Quote
Autumn holy days (Lev.23) pattern & the lake of fire:
TRUMPETS
seal 7 of Rev. and visible return - 10 days
millennium later -
the "resurrection to judgment"DAY OF ATONEMENT"I.E.., 'day' of judgment - 5 days
500 yearslater - TABERNACLES-->Rev.21:3 KJV or YLT, or interlinear
2 Thess.1:7,8 - millennium + 500 to - 1 Cor.15:22-28; Rev.21:1-5 = 2 Peter 3:10-13 = the 2 mentions of lof
Thanks for reading, :gsmile:
God bless
Quote
Autumn holy days (Lev.23) pattern & the lake of fire: And 'Day' of Judgment will be that Great Day of Atonement - Jn.12;32; Ps. 22:27
(Imo)
In support of the Fall holy days representing Jesus' long second advent and thus, DOJ as DOA,
is how His first advent perfectly fulfilled the Spring ones.When the Hebrew children (nation) left Egypt, it was the 14th of Adar (later known as Nisan). They were instructed to prepare (sacrifice) a lamb between the evenings (which is afternoon). And that night, in the dark of the night, they ate the very first Passover 'meal' of lamb and unleavened bread. Unleavened bread, as they hadn't time to prepare, and let rise, leavened bread.
Later they were instructed on how to observe in memoriam, this miraculous Passover of escape and deliverance from the angel/shadow of death, and from their captivity in harsh slavery.
On the 14th day of the first month, they are to sacrifice an unblemished, spotless lamb at the time of the every day, second, daily temple sacrifice, which was at about our time of three in the afternoon. (The first daily temple sacrifice was at nine in the morning.)
So Nisan 14 is called Passover.
Don't forget, the biblical (Hebrew) day begins at sunset. (I am not Hebrew, so if I am inaccurate somewhere, please forgive me.)
So Passover ends at sunset, beginning Nisan 15, which is called "First day of Unleavened Bread" in memory of the unleavened bread eaten on that day of the original, miraculous Passover.
For seven days they were to eat unleavened bread. Passover, of course is in the Spring. Both, Passover, and First day of Unleavened Bread, are, as we know, two of the three, Spring holy days of Passover week. (Or actually, eight days.)
The third holy day, each year, commemorated the Spring barley harvest. It falls every year on the day of Passover week, the day after the regular weekly Sabbath. (Sabbath, known as Saturday.) This holy day, which every year falls on Sunday, is called "Firstfruits".
To re-cap:
Adar/Nisan 14 is Passover - it begins at sunset on Nisan 13. The Passover lamb is sacrificed at three in the afternoon, on Nisan 14, at the time of the second daily temple sacrifice. The Passover meal is eaten after sunset, which at sunset, begins First day of Unleavened Bread.
Over time these two days became mingled, as to their name.. both days being referred to as Passover, or, as Unleavened Bread.
Passover day is the day the lamb sacrifice is "prepared" and sacrificed, having been selected a few days earlier. (Sorry, I forget how many days earlier, but it coincides with Jesus' "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem, just previous to His arrest and crucifixion.)
Unleavened Bread (Day) is when the Passover is eaten. (Days beginning at sunset.) And the day after that week's Sabbath, is the third holy day/day of rest. (Holy days are also called Sabbaths.)
(Ideas differ, but) Jesus was sentenced at the time of the first daily temple sacrifice, at about our time, 9:00 A.M.
And died at the time of the second daily sacrifice, that day, being also the time of the annual Passover lamb sacrifice.
He was put into the tomb, death, lower part of the earth, the dust of the grave, at sunset, as Unleavened Bread was beginning. Put into the grave, as our unleavened bread of life, upon Unleavened Bread Day.
And He rose exactly three nights later as "Firstfruits" was beginning.
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. - 1 Corinthians 15:20
1 Corinthians 15:23(22-28)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end.. when ...28 all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (Rev.21:1-5; Mt.13:33, key word, three?)
1 Corinthians 5:7
..
Christ, our passover, was sacrificed for us...
The whole verse -
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For (because!) indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
As in, ..if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Romans 11:16)
:Peace2: God bless..
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - Rev.20:10
How wise, that the fire that destroys, renews. All born again through the 3 R's of UR, all repent (turn, Ps.22:27), all reconciled, all reborn.
:Chinscratch: to the ages of the ages? Is this 2 ages or more or to THE age, of the ages..? :dontknow:
The reason i'm wondering is because of these verses I read today when Jesus was at the temple during Tabernacles. Tabernacles to me, ultimately equating to Rev.21:1-5 and 1 Cor.15:27,28, the all in all event, so it caught my attention.
"37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture says, 'From your innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 This He spoke of the Spirit.." Jn.7
Which of course is like Rev. 22 (which contains some narrative which is spoken outside the vision, surely? (considering other verses)
I don't know much about the last day of Tabernacles, why it is called the great day, or greatest day of Tabernacles.. but one thing I do think I know, is the verses are very much a cross-reference, both spoken by Jesus, and surely the cross reference is no accident..
Any thoughts or insight on this?
my thoughts: lake of fire in between 'day' of judgment and the all in all event..? or lof is those 7 days of Tabernacles..? Or is the last great day of the festival/feast an 8th day? :doh: can't remember
:dontknow: :Peace2:
Quote from: MichelleSR on September 11, 2016, 07:33:25 PM
Hi! I came across these articles from another website created by Christian Universalists. Some of their articles are a bit confusing to me, and their interpretation of Christian living is very strict compared to others, but they have an interpretation of the second death that I had not heard of before and was wondering if some of you had come across it. You can read it here:
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/restitution/seconddeath.htm
Basically they are saying that all who accept Christ while alive on earth and obey His commands are sanctified during life and will basically go straight to heaven and not have to suffer through the second death.
However, the second death occurs when all the sinners and nonbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which destroys all hell and death. Afterwards is when there will be no more suffering, no more death, every knee will bow, everyone will rejoice in our Savior, etc. It makes sense to me, although the concept is so new to me that part of me is hesitant, or even afraid to believe it fully yet. It just sounds too good to be true!
I was thinking about how the traditional interpretation of all the sinners being thrown into the Lake of Fire, followed by rejoicing, doesn't make much sense. Do God's Holy people really want to rejoice at a massive massacre that leaves most of the people of the world in endless torment? Would we really be praising our Savior and King?
It seems to me that the Lake of Fire and the Second Death could be the way of purging the last of the evil out of the souls how avoided the light. You know how John 3:20 says "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed." I think those people may be the ones who retreat into "hell" and stay away from heaven after dead, out of their own choice. If you ever heard of the NDE of Dr. George Ritche or Howard Storm, they saw people in this state, people who had died and had rejected the love of Jesus. So the Lake of Fire may be the final way the Lord reconciles them all to Him.
Then I was wondering, if this is true, how horrible would the second death be? It's certainly something I'd rather avoid....However I found some scripture that made me feel encouraged. In general, God himself is depicted as a consuming or refining fire in many instances in the Bible. One of the verses I found, I can't find now and wish I had written it down. It said something about how the Lord sent down His fire on people but even after burning them in the fire, they still had hardened hearts and wouldn't turn to Him. Obviously He couldn't have meant a literal fire because anyone in their right mind would beg for the torture to stop and turn to Him right away, so it must have been symbolic of how He chastened them to lead them to Him but they still were not ready to accept Him.
Other verses I found that show that the Lord uses punishment or fire to draw people to Him are:
"You will know that I am the Lord, when I inflict punishment on you and within you am proved to be holy. I will send a plague upon you and make blood flow in your streets. The slain will fall within you, with the sword against you on every side. Then you will know that I am the Lord. No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord." Ezekiel 28:22 - 24
"See, the storm of the Lord will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked. The anger of the Lord will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his hearts. In days to come you will understand it clearly." Jeremiah 24:19 - 20
"You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me," declares the Lord. Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel, prepare to meet your God" Amos 4:11
And then I saw "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love." Lamentations 3:31 - 32.
My thinking is that the Lake of fire will be different for each individual, depending on how they lived their lives, and will perfectly draw all people back to God. I'd love to hear some of your interpretations of the Second Death and Lake of Fire and see if it matches this article's viewpoint.
Michelle, thank you . when I read this website I found an article "Victor Hafichuk's Testimony". I have had similar experiences. it's only been less than a year since I really know Jesus Christ. I am am very happy to have read his articles. Especially since it can be translated into French. It has been all new to me since the spiritual encounter of Jesus
Thank you god.
Thank you Jesus Christ.
I have stumbled on a new thing - but the old things are deeply held - so I don't think it's easy to "hear".. But, it takes time for new ideas.. but it seems so extremely obvious to me.. And more and more obvious as I study and prayerfully ponder it.
Let me see if I can explain it. Even though I still believe His Spirit is as a consuming fire.. and is, in the sense that purity consumes impurity like light consumes darkness..
The idea I've gotten lately is SO simple! But there's such a huge trend - or growing tsunami - that likes to claim God's Word is all - and only - metaphor. (But I think that attracts like sensationalism.. for a while the scripture doesn't seem that exciting to us - probably because we don't get it! We can't put the pieces together - the overall picture, instead of being the breathtaking and gorgeous landscape that it is, it appears to us like a Picasso.. Or maybe some people see a Picasso as beauty? I prefer a clear, sensible, down to earth painting - and truth. To me the Book of Revelation reads so clear, yet no one can see it. Things prophesied are in the world and huge.. some events already occurred, huge and in our faces.. can't see it.
But I'm straying :soap:
So back when the scriptures were written, and more importantly, when translators translated, they had no idea of the immense fiery capability mankind would have.. Can you see where I'm going with this? What if there is no - AFTER LIFE or SPIRITUAL lake of fire at all.. but it is (1) a thermonuclear Armageddon.. going on at Jesus' return (it's even getting popular to think His return is not literal! .."where is the promise of His coming?")
So what if God is letting this waywardness (disobedience) of mankind to occur and run its course? How would it be prevented? Make no able to think beings.. ever? If we can think and reason, can't we make choices and go our own way? So God decided to have all go through it at once.. get it over with. Then, unless the world and mankind turns wholeheartedly to God, it's bound to conclude, well, rather fiery is what I'm saying. And that's what I truly think the lake of fire is - prophecy.. and the only afterlife torment shall only be within, for some on judgment 'day', which surely "the judgment must take a lot longer than a day!
And biblically, there's 3 mentions of LOF in Revelation --- 1- at Jesus' return. - 2 - at the final defeat of the adversary in Rev.20, fire "rains" and he's in (a) LOF. And - 3 - following "the judgment" [which follows "the millennium" of Jesus upon Earth, after His return] when God "makes all things new" - which here it is - (imo)in plain language, as the saying goes -
--- "2 Peter 3 - 10-11 & 12-13 - 10 "and it will come -- the day of-the-Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens/atmosphere with a rushing noise will pass away/Greek-pass by, and elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up. 11 Since all these things (of the world) are to be destroyed in this way, serve and honor God by the way you live." --- these verses being the return of Jesus.
12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day-of-God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt; 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." --- the making new of ALL things. Anyone - by then - still not believing/written in the book of life will be in (that) lake of fire. Which means no one, because Jesus said He will draw ALL to Him, Jn.12:32.
"The bear will graze with the cow and the lion will eat straw like the ox." Isaiah 11:7
I think "tsunami" is a little sensational ;o)
Jesus has fire in His eyes in Rev. Chaptr 1.
Is that a thermonuclear reaction? :o)
In Matthew 25 what is Jesus referring to when He says " they will be cast into "aionion pyr"?(ageduring fire" or "fire of the age to come"?
If our God is a consuming fire, is He "thermo-nuclear"?
Frequently metaphors are physical things that represent spiritual understandings so we can grasp them, at least partially, because they are beyond the veil and can only be understood in principal. These prophecies have been in place for thousands of years as vital, living, words of exhortation for "anyone who seeks" their present, living and active, meaning for us as individuals and communities.
If you look at Dan 7 you see a vision of Jesus, fire is proceeding from His throne, He is surrounded my multitudes of angels as He appears. In Rev chapters 15 and 22 there is a river of living water coming from the throne and a crystal sea in front of the throne.
Are Daniel and John seeing different things? Or are they seeing different metaphorical aspects of the same thing? A river of fire to the rebel is a river of living water to the those who are in the love of God. When the river of fire has "consumed" all that is not of love, then it will become as living water to the newly repentant who bows and declares, "Jesus is Lord! with joy in a renewed heart.
The one who sits one the thone says, "Behold, I am making all things new"....Write these things down for they are faithful and true."
a lake of fire before the throne is also a crystal sea before the throne. Those cast into the lake of fire will those cast into the sea of God's redeemed who will say, "Come, let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet He will make them white as snow ".... "Know you not you will judge the world?"
Dan 7 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
I think maybe we, the elect of God, are the crystal sea and the lake of fire. Thats why it is all grace. We were only selected to be the first-fruits, the seed stock, but all who come after will be as we will be as they come into the family.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2
Maybe thats why the "whole creation" eagerly awaits the revelation of the children of God.
Thats why death is the last adversary. When God is "all in all"...and all are in His love... the fire and the water will be one, in all, and death will be no more because when there is only love, there is only life. :dontknow:
10But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.
That sounds like God's Spirit?.. and metaphor only? The day of the Lord is when Jesus returns (amid Armageddon) - it's surprising how many christians think His return is metaphor. Were the fulfilled OT prophecies, metaphor only?
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way... 12as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, WHEN the heavens will be destroyed by fire. And the elements will melt in the heat. [what metaphor?! only if one adds to or takes away from the verse] 13 BUT in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to A new heaven and A new earth, where righteousness dwells.
When does that happen? After judgment 'day' and before the vivication of ALL at the making of all things new and God being all in all.. If there is a being by then unwilling to bend the knee - which we know via the scripture, shall not occur - well, why does the LOF mentioned right there in the scripture, have to be a different fire? Than the elements melting..
He is a purifying Spirit, a consuming fire.. but no I don't think He IS fire.. so thAt I think of as metaphor for His purifying essence.. and it doesn't really say the crystal radiance and the lake of fire are the same thing..
I don't think any humans will be thrown into a lake of fire. Potentially yes, at the "all in all" occurrence.. or caught up in the conflagation of very late days.. Isaiah 38 says they will look at each other their faces on fire.. I do not believe this is God throwing ppl to a lof.. but prophecy. Which translators having no idea of man's modern capabilities mistook for the pagan afterlife torment. It seems real obvious to me. In Revelation and in the prophets.
The fire streaming from the throne in Daniel I think is metaphor. The one at Armageddon - not the armageddon in me, it's not all about me - and the melting of the elements into a new heavens and a new earth, I think both will be the literal element of fire. He has kindled a fire.. allowed man to play God in many ways, one way as splitting the physical building block of God as an epitome of man's doings and wars. "All mankind will look at the dead bodies in abhorrence". Abhorring forever the wayward way! Having witnessed its fruit.
I believe there is amazing metaphor and lesson in all things for ones inner understanding and healing. But I also believe it's the literal that glorifies God, and is the clear message folks most need to hear.. The overall message of what God is doing and proving. The fruit of waywardness is ruin. I think metaphor can descend to every person's opinions or expounding, and has the tendency to glorify humans, and can be an idol. Definitely, imo, second place to literal. Can end up like youtube, entertaining.. But to seekers of the overall truth of life, every person talking metaphor may simply be a strange babble..
:Peace2:
And, edit/p.s. - in its day, will be the literal red moon.. and decreasing of the sun and moon's light by 1/3.. Joel's smokey day.. "the Earth will rock to and fro.. men's hearts failing them for fear.. " but His "shall not be afraid should the mountains fall into the sea".. via Ps. 91 and 46. Real brave of 'us'/whomever in that day if it all be mere metaphor.. And come out of her my people - in thAt day, may be bigger than coming out of dead or worldly religion....yah.. I think the hail in Revelation may be debris.. came to mind when watching 9/11 footage.. columns of smoke.. metaphor? Or visible..? men's (modern) wars...
p.s . - I was recently told - condescendingly so -- not here at the tent! That "the lion will eat straw like the ox" (Is.11:7) has already occurred, because it's metaphor. Really? ...so no animals any more in the kingdom? Or - they will still eat one another forever? :doh:
I hav no problems with literal applications accept when some one declares them the obvious truth when I disagree with them ;o)
I see many metaphors that have both an obvious literal meaning and deeper spiritual ones and even layers of spiritual meanings.
However in regards to the elelments burning with fire and the new earth(2 pet 3).... Peter just said(2 pet 2) that the world "that was" was "destroyed" with water..... but it wasnt really destroyed in the physical sense, was it?
In 2 Peter 3:6 Peter uses the word apoleto-(perished,ruined, lost) "through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." The world being the people, cities, communities, nations, systems of that time- not the actual earth.
In 2Peter 3:7 Peter uses the word apoleias (same) "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
Another tense of the same word Jesus uses when He says He came to seek and save that which was "lost". He obvioulsy did not mean physically destroyed and I hav a hard time when people want to pick and choose to use a word to mean one thing in one place...."Oh, but it cant mean that in these other places" whether they are universalists or not.
In other words, apoleia does not mean complete physical destruction very often if one does a complete study of its NT occurences.
Also... the word "elements" is the greek word stoicheion which is used in Hebrews 6 as "elementary principles" also in Colossians when Paul speaks to why we re subject ourselves to "elementary principles" or (kjv) "weak and beggarly elements".
In these places the word "stoicheion" does nopt refer to physical elements but rather the principles upon which systems of belief are founded. Again... this is what I believe Peter is also speaking of, since He is the one who proclaimed that the heavens would receive Jesus "until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the ancients"(Acts 3:19)- which is the purging of lies and greed and oppression from the earth by the fire of the word of God.
in 2 Peter 3:10-11
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed(lythesetai- dissolved) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(heurethesetai.)
11Since all these things are to be destroyed(Lythesetai-dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Peter talks about the elements melting with fire and the new heavens and the new earth I believe he is saying the works of the earth, its governments, its systems of demonic principalities, and its errors and oppressive lies will be "Dissoloved(lythesetai), exposed(heuresethetai) and will melt away before the "brightness of His appearing", as in 2 Thess 1:7- 9
7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Which reads astoundlingly alike to Dan 7:10
This again is the same as 2 Peter 3, speaking of the coming of the Lord, with "10,000s of 10,000s" as in so many places and cannot be a physical destruction of the earth because "the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the ancients"- has just begun.
The heavens passing, melting away, rolling back like a scroll, etc- to me all references of what will occur at the very real and literal return, appearing, UNVEILING(apocalupto) of the Lord- Fire in His eyes, flaming sword from His mouth, surrounded by flaminf angels- which will change the world in many literal and spiritual ways-
but not physically destroy it.
For this reason the whole creation groans for the "revelation of the children of God" which is at the "resurrection of our bodies"(Romans 8) which is at His appearing(1 Cor 15, Rev 20) and will set all creation free from futility. GLORY!
So I am not trying to prove a point so much as to say it not so clear to me thatit is mainly a physical destruction by fire and I dont think that co-ordinates well with the rest of the verses about the end of this age. Remember Peter says right there in 2 Peter 3 "with the Lord a day is as one thousand years"......"but we look forward to a renewed heaven and a renewed earth wherein dwells righteousness(possible reading).
It also trouble me that many universalists want to question the translations when it refers to our particular issue- but stand on them like they are rock solid in other areas- eschatology being one main area- because many things had to be twisted to present this god who burns the world, burns people forever, etc., etc.
I am simply presenting my case for a non tsunami view ;o)
Well.. time will tell.. We can know for certain all things will be subdued and made new.. For my part I believe Armageddon will be man's doings and will be a literal (temporary) lake of fire - earthly. Which to me, the three mentions in Rev. - where they are - could make hell and all its dregs to disappear from the understanding of the scripture..
The ones of chapter 19 being cast there being institutions of man.. followed by a literal millennium, an age called the judgment, and a literal new earth, whether physically dissolved or once again simply the works on the planet.. either way, lof.. at Jesus' return "for whom we await from heaven" Paul wrote.. and then the "all in all" event and vivification of all who had not "put on immortality" at Jesus' return. Our God being a consuming fire.. literal as well as spiritual.. otherwise He would not have told Moses to have the ppl stay back lest He break forth and consume them.. that mortality cannot stand/endure in His (full) Presence.
I still believe it is a tsunami of metaphor.. and read recently how the churches have seemed determined to spiritualize all scripture, to me an extreme - like no spiritualizing would be. Both being (imo) an angel of (false) light :gsmile:
I also believe in reading as literal, what can be.. and that the metaphor does not cancel.. I believe even Rev. - told via symbols, etc.. is still literal.. beasts for example, not physical animals, but governing of men being the literal. And very literal. Rev. 20:4d being literally in the world today.. not only spiritually.. using just as an example..
Proverbs18;16-18 A Gift[eternal life free gift for all men]Opens the way for the giver and ushers him into the presence of the great
THE FIRST to present his case seems right...until another come forward and questions him
CASTING THE LOT SETTLES DISPUTES AND KEEPS STRONG OPPONETS APART.
the ATONEMENT...the lots...the Lord's goat and Azazael's[scape]goat....seperates those with strong enmity[the woman's seed from the
serpents] Jesus seperates...satan andhis[demons]intoLOFprepared for them......and man....with his free gift inherits the kingdomof
the love of his son.
BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE YE SONS OF MEN ARE NOT CONSUMED[Rev 20;9]Matt 13;41
I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY[mankind] God is not imputing our trespasses against us.Psalms32;2,Romans4;8
what is consumed in this coming and Great deliverance? the 'wicked' one? ALL that is ,has been or could be against you...for
if God be for us..who can be against us?
NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST YOU SHALL SUCEED
I believe that Jesus testimony is true in every sense of the WORD .......
How does God reach somes carnal nature ? it says by parables [teachings and comparing them to earthly things ].
Being carnal is a first born nature that we become spiritual by nature in being born again a new by Holy Spirit & fire and it is a
TRUE WITNESS ..
and that also explains the healing process , because to me it seems that is what was lost in sin [ the temporary things of this life ] as carnal we tend to cling too , because we taste, touch and see , hear and handle it all the time , what was lost was our innocence or godly nature or relationship with a HOLY GOD being in His presence .
I do believe part of the holiness is fire and purity that brings righteous judgement by testing the quality of what we are made of , if it is Spirit and it last forever and if not it is destroyed by the very fire of the Holy Spirit cleansing us . those works of satan that are to be burned up as futility and vanity as nothing. showing pridefulness is injured . always thinking your right explains lots of divisions and religions in the process of learning what is right in the sight of God . usually it is suffering for being right because the world will hate you , or being wrong and than God will despise your fruit /doings , but suffering for the good does bear good fruits of the Spirit , learning the process , The Fruit of the Holy Spirit is a biblical term that sums up nine attributes of a person or community living in accord with the Holy Spirit, according to chapter 5 of the Epistle to the Galatians: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. these things , GOD IS by nature , verses the anger and hate and swift judging somthing and gossip and malice and injury , stealing and killing someone's good character by evil doing in slander accusing them before GOD day and night , in ignorance and in the knowing it is wrong to do . works of the devil .
1 Peter 4:12-19 (AMPC)
12 Beloved, do not be amazed and bewildered at the fiery ordeal which is taking place to test your quality, as though something strange (unusual and alien to you and your position) were befalling you.
13 But insofar as you are sharing Christ's sufferings, rejoice, so that when His glory [full of radiance and splendor] is revealed, you may also rejoice with triumph [exultantly].
14 If you are censured and suffer abuse [because you bear] the name of Christ, blessed [are you—happy, fortunate, to be envied, with life-joy, and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of your outward condition], because the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of God, is resting upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or any sort of criminal, or as a mischief-maker (a meddler) in the affairs of others [infringing on their rights].
16 But if [one is ill-treated and suffers] as a Christian [which he is contemptuously called], let him not be ashamed, but give glory to God that he is [deemed worthy to suffer] in this name.
17 For the time [has arrived] for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will [be] the end of those who do not respect or believe or obey the good news (the Gospel) of God?
18 And if the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the godless and wicked?
19 Therefore, those who are ill-treated and suffer in accordance with God's will must do right and commit their souls [in charge as a deposit] to the One Who created [them] and will never fail [them].
Seems our faith is to GOD and God will let us know our shortcomings by the fruit of our doings it produces in us
Guilt can and does make us know the HOLY SPIRIT is working in us , when you realize that conviction is showing us not to stay in that place of suffering for wrong doing , this chastisement is producing repentance in us and comforts us to know that GOD IS NEAR and our conscience lets us know if we are forgiven to forgive those whom have wronged us also
with the mind of Christ , doing the FATHERS will or desires of HIS heart .
Now some never learn the truth and are set free from the evil doing under the same law of sin and death , so God does sear their conscience with a hot iron
1 Tim 4 1Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.
3They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth....
the will worshipping of mens teachings with others mens teachings and false christs [ messengers of light whose light is darkness and how great is that darkness ?] creating a mass of destruction whose end is worse off than if they had never known any faith in GOD in the first place .........
the law is good , but we must choose the good out of the law of good and evil in order for the perfect [ Christ ] grace of God to come .
or it does create in us the fruit of hypocrisy making us liars and false witnesses against the TRUTH .
I think it is extremely personal and extremely an individual working in each and everyone of us . each in their own order
we are told to be faithful in just a few things and the Lord will make us ruler of many things . because the law is set up to teach us right from wrong and discern the spirits working in and on us !! not judging others by being a busy body in others souls and conscience awareness of GOD .IT is by any fruits good or bad we know what hypocrisy is !!
If it were possible even the very elect of GOD would be deceived if it were possible . but the Holy Spirit of TRUTH will not allow IT to happen when we are trying to please GOD in the only way we know how to .
If you break one law you broke them all is a pretty serious offense ..... seems it is impossible to keep all the law without JESUS CHRIST ruling our hearts to me .........
Being the King of everything and everyone and all will bow the knee and confess the LORD each in their own order that come and are called to do so ............ keep praying for GOD to heal the nations .
Quote from: sheila on April 16, 2019, 05:40:49 PM
Proverbs18;16-18 A Gift[eternal life free gift for all men]Opens the way for the giver and ushers him into the presence of the great
THE FIRST to present his case seems right...until another come forward and questions him
CASTING THE LOT SETTLES DISPUTES AND KEEPS STRONG OPPONETS APART.
the ATONEMENT...the lots...the Lord's goat and Azazael's[scape]goat....seperates those with strong enmity[the woman's seed from the
serpents] Jesus seperates...satan andhis[demons]intoLOFprepared for them......and man....with his free gift inherits the kingdomof
the love of his son.
BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE YE SONS OF MEN ARE NOT CONSUMED[Rev 20;9]Matt 13;41
I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY[mankind] God is not imputing our trespasses against us.Psalms32;2,Romans4;8
what is consumed in this coming and Great deliverance? the 'wicked' one? ALL that is ,has been or could be against you...for
if God be for us..who can be against us?
NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST YOU SHALL SUCEED
we were posting at the same time sis !!!!!!!!!!! yes deliver us from the evil one , Paul spoke of wanting to do good and evil was present and still working death in him!!!!!!!!!! Evil hides itself in the body of death [carnal nature , made weak and beggarly on purpose ] and of the devil , earthly sensual and devilish, to show us all we can do nothing without GOD and Jesus ruling our hearts now !
:HeartThrob:
deliver us JESUS !!! THE LORDS PRAYER !
Amen, sisters (ha ha! Literally and, metaphorically! :laughing7: )
I was having some serious thoughts and need to look into it further, but it seems to me the people whose foreheads are sealed in Rev. chapter 7 (accomplishes virgin minds?) are the same ones who “come out of tribulation” later in Rev. I’ve never assumed, and still don’t, that to be what some folks in the churches believe called “the tribulation” but that this life is two things - no make that three things but they are one - imperfection - tribulation - apocalypse. Or this life is tribulation and apocalypse - with God’s great joy and happiness - of course, but the two are because of the first - imperfection. It’s kind of a dis-ease, the wages/result of missing the mark is death.. sin, imperfection.. just a speck of it is a bottomless pit, an abyss of possibility.. that all must be innoculatedagainst. And how does a vaccination work?
All are literally, as we know, going to be like Him. Most importantly in character. But also “He will make our imperfect, dying body to be like His glorified body” Philippians?
But it dawned on me that some believers may fear the book of Revelation.. if there are earthly troubles described. Trouble is Jesus said to know signs, for there to be watchmen. Hooray for metaphor and the spiritual gems in both life and God’s Word.. And a foot cannot be an elbow (lol) and each person speaks what has been ministered to their heart and understanding.
It’s of the natural person to think everything is or, instead of and.. I think the scripture has to be literal and metaphor.. not or.
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:Chinscratch: Like “elements” which does include of the universe.. and interestingly enough “letters, but not written.. but the sound of” and how does it say He created the universe?
“will melt with ferocious heat” may indeed I’m quite sure, have an inner application, but.. And dissolved includes stretching away.. loosing.. definitely an inner truth.. “Ancient of days” Daniel said, “and heaven and earth fled away from His face...” - sorry that’s very poorly paraphrased..
Hi sister Marie !! :girlheart:
I have always associated '' tribulation period '' as birth pangs from a few scriptures in the old and new testaments .
I know according to Revelation 12 the birthing of the sons of God or children of the day or Light etc. is about delivery in one day .......
Isaiah 66
Rejoice with Jerusalem
7Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before she was in pain, she delivered a boy.
8Who has heard of such as this? Who has seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be delivered in an instant? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children.
9Shall I bring a baby to the point of birth and not deliver it?" says the LORD. "Or will I who deliver close the womb?" says your God.
I see rev 12 as the woman or the body of CHRIST AS the true church birthing the sons of God because it it those whom have the testimony of Jesus Christ with them and keep the commandments of God , love GOD FIRST and everyone as you do yourselves ........ just good old fashioned neighbourly good manners . this is in the day of the LORD that John is speaking of I can see all of Revelation, revealing of Jesus Christ as the DAY of the LORD where all these things take place in .
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
It may well be the DAY or 1000 year reign of JESUS CHRIST when the prophecies are all accomplished in .
I cannot say it is or it is not one way or the other , perhaps to some it is and to others it is not all happening in their time
of deliverance the minute a spiritual birth is made it seems the great dagon wants to devour it .......
may explain why precious in the sight of the Lord ar the death of his saints or holy ones .....
I wonder many times just what it all means ..........