Jesus Returned in Power and Glory

[GodIsLove]

Bamboozled Believers, copyright 2015 by Michael Biehler was one of the first books I read in regards to fulfilled prophecy.  I think his information is right on, however he seems to hold a grudge against what he calls "futurists".  At the writing of his book, he was not a U.R. believer.  Maybe he has seen The Light since then.

I downloaded this book a few weeks ago, and am partly through it.

It's a good read, and he notes that "aion" is an "age" but is often mistranslated, so that can be the jumping off point to UR if he is open to it.

I think that's what this life is all about, being open to God and receiving teaching/love/grace from God  and not man. We all say this is true, but to practice it is very difficult, for myself included.

[DavidFord]

"If christian means a follower of Christ, then I'm a christian"   
Sounds good to me. 
"I hope to be saved when Armageddon comes" 
Armageddon has already come.  Har = mountain.  Megiddown = Megiddo.  Har-Megiddon = Mountain of Megiddo.  However, Megiddo isn't a mountain but rather a plain:

Zechariah 12 (NRSV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+12&version=NRSV
10 And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

Revelation 1 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=KJV
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

"Jerusalem sat essentially on one mountain, Mt. Zion to be specific.  If Megiddo represented a place of great mourning and a day of great mourning was coming upon Jerusalem soon in AD 70, then it makes sense that Jerusalem or Mt. Zion would be called Mountain of Megiddo or Armageddon." - page 148 of
_How the End Times Ended in AD 70:  An Optimistic View of The Last Days_
https://www.amazon.com/HOW-END-TIMES-ENDED-Optimistic-ebook/dp/B07FFJ3KMW/

Most if not all of the book of Revelation has already occurred.  The prophet Jesus returned by the end of A.D. 70.
Some that Saw Jesus Die Witnessed Jesus' Return in Power and Glory
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/jesus-returned-in-power-and-glory/​;

[marie glen]

imo ...

horses of the apocalypse - past - but still their rides continue, as does the next two seals, tho seal 6 is currently in pause mode.. 7:1(The seals are described as their 1st and last, obscuring the vision. (4th seal includes mass graves, past/present/future)

definetly the phase of the big and littler beasts of rev. 13 were past, in the roman empire and rebirth, etc. But i believe another form is present, and will receive breath/life/authority when the office pinpointed by 13:13 climbs aboard..

the global harlot in a seductive guise upon 7 continents, also present as empire and system based on gold which the last ten divisions/seats of the big beast/governing body of the last hour will finally manage to consume away and also raze by fire.. mostly future

13:13 event - past

The 2 harvests of rev 14 (tares to battle in Armageddon) and wheat into His barn "lest no flesh survive", Mt.24 - "those that are His at His coming, 1 Cor.15:23 - future

White Throne Judgment/Discernment(?) and Review of all History? - future

raising the dead in Christ at the last day - we shall not precede them - future

raising the not yet saved dead 1000 years later, the resurrection to the judgment - future

The all in all event / new heavens, new earth - 1 Cor.15:28, Rev.21:1-5, and 2 Peter 3:12,13 - future

Basically, I think 1 Corinthians 15:22-->28 shows past and future perfectly:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: ¹Christ the firstfruits, afterward ²those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then ³comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then ³the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.^Rev.21:1-5

    :Peace2:

[DavidFord]

No followers of Jesus died in the destruction of Jerusalem, because they heeded the warnings issued by Jesus, and by John's Revelation.  As he'd prophesied, Jesus returned within the lifetime of some of those who'd been involved in his killing.  God has always existed, and will always exist, and hence, one can say that God was, is, and will be.
Revelation was originally written in not Greek, but rather Aramaic.  What are some verses below you're puzzled about?

Revelation 1 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/1.htm
1 The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him,
to show his Servants *what had been given to soon occur,*
and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan,
2 Who witnessed the word of God and the testimony of Yeshua The Messiah - everything whatever he saw.
3 *Blessed is the one who reads and those who* hear the words of this prophecy
and *keep those things that are written* in it, *for the time is near.*
4 Yohannan to the seven assemblies that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from The One Who is, and was, and is coming,
and from The Seven Spirits which are before his throne,
5 And from Yeshua The Messiah, the Trustworthy Witness,
the Firstborn of the dead and The Ruler of the Kings of The Earth-
him who loves us and has loosed us from our sins by his blood.
6 And he has made us The Priestly Kingdom to God and his Father;
to him be glory and Empire to the eternity of eternities. Amen.
7 Behold, *he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him,*
and all the families of The Earth shall mourn for him; yes and amen!
8 I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God,
he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty.

Some that Saw Jesus Die Witnessed Jesus' Return in Power and Glory
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/jesus-returned-in-power-and-glory/

[jabcat]

Please remember to post "as I understand, in my opinion (IMO), as I see it, I believe, etc." - if not expressly stated, then obviously in that spirit/attitude.

[DavidFord]

Who has the greater number of successful prophecies to his credit:  you, or Yeshua the Meshikha?  Among the *ed material below, do you see any successful prophecies by Yeshua?  (Re: Mt 24:6, there was at least one 'rumor of war' so powerful that people neglected to plant their crops-- and it turned out to be a mere rumor, because the rumored coming war didn't happen.)

Luke 19 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+19&version=KJV
41 And when he was come near, he beheld *the city,* and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!  but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For *the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,*
44 *And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;* because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luke 21 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+21&version=KJV
20 And *when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.*
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For *these be the days of vengeance,* that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But *woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.*
24 And *they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,* until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And *there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;*
26 *Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.*
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, *This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.*
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 23 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+23&version=KJV
26 And as they led him [Jesus] away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But *Jesus* turning unto them *said, Daughters of Jerusalem,* weep not for me, but *weep for yourselves, and for your children.*
29 For, behold, *the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.*
30 Then shall *they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.*
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Matthew 24 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+24&version=KJV
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple:  and his disciples came to him for to shew him *the buildings of the temple.*
2 And *Jesus said* unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, *There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.*
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, *the disciples came* unto him privately, *saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?* and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And *Jesus answered* and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For *many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.*
6 And *ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:*  see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and *there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes,* in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 *Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:*  and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see *the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,* (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And *woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!*
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For *then shall be great tribulation,* such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:  but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For *there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;* insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth:  behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 *Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:*
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, *when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.*
34 Verily I say unto you, *This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.*
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

hat tip:
George Peter Holford's _The Destruction of Jerusalem_ (1805, 1814, 1858) http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1805_holford_proof.html 
https://www.amazon.com/Destruction-Jerusalem-Absolute-Irresistible-Christianity/dp/0967831725/
PDF http://vladspost.com/pdf/Jews/Destruction%2520of%2520Jerusalem.pdf

[DavidFord]

I've been doing some reading, and in my opinion, everything discussed in the book of Revelation has occurred.

https://www.equip.org/article/who-is-the-antichrist/
Finally, Nero is rightly identified as the Beast of Revelation––the archetypal Antichrist––because of the unique and horrible quality of the "great tribulation" he ignited.

[rosered]

I've been doing some reading, and in my opinion, everything discussed in the book of Revelation has occurred.

  I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL   ,
meaning it is a constant  force that   frequently  applies  in everyone's lives over and over again , just my thoughts   when it comes to the revelation of JESUS CHRIST  ..........  as the learning examples    though out  history  and even in our lives today and to come . 
per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(o͞o)əl/
adjective
1.
never ending or changing.
"deep caves in perpetual darkness"
synonyms:   everlasting, never-ending, eternal, permanent, unending, endless, without end, lasting, long-lasting, constant, abiding, enduring, perennial, timeless, ageless, deathless, undying, immortal; More
2.
occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.
"their perpetual money worries"
synonyms:   interminable, incessant, ceaseless, endless, without respite, relentless, unrelenting, persistent, frequent, continual, continuous, nonstop, never-ending, recurrent, repeated, unremitting, sustained, round-the-clock, always-on, habitual, chronic, unabating; informaleternal         

[jugghead]

I've been doing some reading, and in my opinion, everything discussed in the book of Revelation has occurred.

  I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL   ,
meaning it is a constant  force that   frequently  applies  in everyone's lives over and over again , just my thoughts   when it comes to the revelation of JESUS CHRIST  ..........  as the learning examples    though out  history  and even in our lives today and to come . 

I whole-heartedly agree Rose

[DavidFord]

  I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL   ,
meaning it is a constant  force that   frequently  applies  in everyone's lives over and over again[/quote]
Makes sense.  Do you agree with me that particular events in history happened just once?

[rosered]

  I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL   ,
meaning it is a constant  force that   frequently  applies  in everyone's lives over and over again

Makes sense.  Do you agree with me that particular events in history happened just once?
[/quote]

   Amen Jugg .. 

   Hi  David  ,  I would say what has been recorded   as yes ......
But as the bible states many things  have not been recorded 

John 21 24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down.

And we know that his testimony is true.


25There are many more things that Jesus did.

If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.


All things are possible with GOD   I believe  all our lives  matter to God    and are living  letters   as well as dead letters  , depending on the course    taken .
Everything   done  is according to our faith in God , to me brother ..

[DavidFord]

Do you agree with me that this already occurred?:

Revelation 12 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=KJV
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[rosered]

  Yes!!!   David , I sure do  , I believe it happened  at the cross    in my opinion .

  Jesus ushered in  the new covenant [ mercy &  grace , by forgiveness of sin covering  , not holding mankind's sins against them ] , I believe it was'' the open show ''  of somthing that was being done long , long ago  , but hidden from mankind's  sight .

  Jesus Christ,  that was and IS and will be has always been the resurrection and the Life  in every man .

Satan's power over death  was always under the law and ministration of death  ...  JESUS meant it when HE SAID!!   I COME openly   to destroy the works of the devil and his  BIG  EVIL  LIE  over    hades  & death , so we can experience   a more abundant life  now in the Spirit of Life if by faith  if  we believe in  Jesus  works  and the continuing  works of the HOLY SPIRIT of Truth . 

Mankind was never meant to spend an eternity  in a mortal  and corruptive  state  , GOD even in His blessed mercy shortened the days    from 1000  years to  70 years more or less   in being   in the corruptible image  and estate .

   the body of MOSES  or body of death and all held in that  estate was freed   at the cross [spirits in prison ]  if one can  believe in those works of GOD ...
The Estates, representative bodies of the estates of the realm.[  Moses body of death ] realm answered in Jude  in my own opinion   of what was also  shared by John the revelator  also    in Rev 12    as   the binding  and loosing  of what is on earth as it is in heaven   witnesses !

  Paul could not speak openly of the mercy seat at that time [ Hebrews 9 ] but touches on it in several places  , especially  in Romans   when He said God has'' bound up ''  all in disobedience  that He  may have mercy on all ....


Standing in those things are only a few ,   and   in many things  yet to be revealed to us in Our Lord Jesus Christ ...
my   holy /pure  thoughts  in the power of GOD brother ..........  I for one believe GODS  promises  without compromise .

God bless you David in  all your efforts  in pursuing the truth  and rest   in Him ...

[marie glen]

Do you agree with me that this already occurred?:

Revelation 12 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=KJV
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

yes, because verses 13 and 14 have occurred.. I think this is a fascinating chapter but most misread not knowing its an insert.. the dragon was very angry - didn't get to devour the Son of man / manchild when He was born.. And the Son of man is now instead at the right hand of God.. forever firstborn of all creation.

And as sister Rose said, the victory was won and the adversary&co. were no longer allowed access to heaven..

So wow.. that old dragon, called adversary, devil and serpent was very much enraged. The faith, represented by "the woman" -- "a great sign.. a virgin conceives -- the faith had fled at 70a.d. (as we can see, the faith spread out further.. toward Rome and beyond). And now the dragon again pursues her, and "persecutes" / inquisitions the faith, but it's given the two wings of an eagle to fly to a new place.. hello??! Are you kidding me? that this remains unseen in the body of Christ! Where are the eyes?

:doh: :laughing7: So sorry.. I need to read the rest of sister Rose's post.. who's been studying Revelation, maybe she sees it too..

...given the two wings of an eagle to fly / sail to a new place.. 1620, kept free from the face of the dragon for a duration of 3.5 ...1620+350=1970 ---> the serpent guise of the dragon vomited a flood after the woman, the faith, in an effort to wash the faith from off the Earth. :hiya: But the Earth will swallow the flood^{drought coming.} Then the dragon turns his attention (back) to the faith's other children, "to make war", who have the commandments of God. And - by then - according to Mt.23:39! imo - have the testimony of Jesus. ----> And the nations (the tares of) are gathered to Armageddon (Rev.16:14,15,16) ....go to chapter 14?  :doh: The scenes of Rev. are not strictly in order..? some are even meanwhiles..?
:Peace2: :girlheart:

[marie glen]

  Yes!!!   David , I sure do  , I believe it happened  at the cross    in my opinion .

  Jesus ushered in  the new covenant [ mercy &  grace , by forgiveness of sin covering  , not holding mankind's sins against them ] , I believe it was" the open show "  of somthing that was being done long , long ago  , but hidden from mankind's  sight .

:iagree: ..and I think it is the first horseman of the apocalypse.. the gospel rides forth into the age of our Lord a.d... riding forth conquering and having conquered.. on a white horse like chapter 19. - making an open show of His victory march over powers and principalities.. and death (to be completely vanquished in its time). The horsemen and seals continue their rides / progression to the 'end'.

  Jesus Christ,  that was and IS and will be has always been the resurrection and the Life  in every man .

    :banana: amen!

Satan's power over death  was always under the law and ministration of death  ...  JESUS meant it when HE SAID!!   I COME openly   to destroy the works of the devil and his  BIG  EVIL  LIE  over    hades  & death , so we can experience   a more abundant life  now in the Spirit of Life if by faith  if  we believe in  Jesus  works  and the continuing  works of the HOLY SPIRIT of Truth . 

Amen, "missing the mark" is a disease and Jesus is the cure.

Mankind was never meant to spend an eternity  in a mortal  and corruptive  state  , GOD even in His blessed mercy shortened the days    from 1000  years to  70 years more or less   in being   in the corruptible image  and estate .

Amen.. Paul talked about the administration of the ages.. The Father`s program.. Jesus is the prototype! I think our Father is very organized.

    ...
God has" bound up "  all in disobedience  that He  may have mercy on all"
....

Amen! "All" are learning (digesting the understanding of( good from evil, which I believe is Life, from death (nonlife / lacking life) and He is writing this full understanding upon every heart and mind "in heaven and earth" - how else to have an enduring perfection (paradise?) and still be able to endow thinking and reasoning ability to your created beings, your children? Beloved children.. :cloud9: "Love will rule" in every heart and psyche, thus in all creation.. :dsunny: "The bear will graze with the cow".. and lie down together in green pastures.."and the lion will eat straw like the ox" (Is.11:7)

He leadeth "all" beside still waters.. and our cups will forever overflow.. He anoints our head with oil and spreads a table before us even in the presence of our enemies and through the valley, of the shadow.. of death.. Where the rays of the bright sun shine through the breaking clouds and fills the world with a colorful rainbow that shall never fade..

Why? shall it now be able to never fade? Amen.. He iS life.. His works can only be Perfect.

...To me, to sleep in death is not annihilation.. all perishing.. also ruin or destruction, is temporary.. But there are two fruits maturing on the planet. We can know, learn, what something is, by its fruit. War.. death.. all horrible.. horrible fruit.. But praise Yah! the last enemy vanquished / done away with, is death. :iagree: it shall be no more. :banana:

[DavidFord]

God bless you David in all your efforts in pursuing the truth and rest in Him

Thanks.  Be blessed.

someone:  "Once the Romans destroyed the Second Temple of Jerusalem, they stole the Torah scrolls.... Their typological attempt to undo Judaism began with the book of Matthew"
Do you think Rev 11:1-2 was written before, or after, the temple's destruction?

Revelation 11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/11.htm
1 And a reed was given to me like a rod and the Angel was standing and said, "Rise and measure the Temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it," 2 "And the inner court of the Temple leave out and do not measure it, because that is given to the Gentiles, and they will trample The Holy City forty two months.  3 "And I shall grant my two witnesses to prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days while wearing sackcloth."

[marie glen]

I believe it's Luke 21:24 (?) which says Jerusalem will/would be trampled until the times of the gentiles are complete..

I can't think that was only until 70 a.d.?

Is it a claim the gospel account/testimony of Matthew is spurious? Matthew's focus, of the four gospels is the most Judean focused.. Or so it seems to me..

P.S. / edit, I do believe Rev. is not wholly 'future'.. Some being past.. The book spanning from the Lord's being caught up to God's throne / "the only one who has ascended.." and the gospel's going forth.. to "the 'end' when the Son "hands the Kingdom over to the Father, having subdued ALL things.. that God may be all in all".. (1 Cor.15:22-28)

[rosered]

So wow.. that old dragon, called adversary, devil and serpent was very much enraged. The faith, represented by "the woman" -- "a great sign.. a virgin conceives -- the faith had fled at 70a.d. (as we can see, the faith spread out further.. toward Rome and beyond). And now the dragon again pursues her, and "persecutes" / inquisitions the faith, but it's given the two wings of an eagle to fly to a new place.. hello??! Are you kidding me? that this remains unseen in the body of Christ! Where are the eyes?

:doh: :laughing7: So sorry.. I need to read the rest of sister Rose's post.. who's been studying Revelation, maybe she sees it too..

...given the two wings of an eagle to fly / sail to a new place.. 1620, kept free from the face of the dragon for a duration of 3.5 ...1620+350=1970 ---> the serpent guise of the dragon vomited a flood after the woman, the faith, in an effort to wash the faith from off the Earth. :hiya: But the Earth will swallow the flooddrought coming. Then the dragon turns his attention (back) to the faith's other children, "to make war", who have the commandments of God. And - by then - according to Mt.23:39! imo - have the testimony of Jesus. ----> And the nations (the tares of) are gathered to Armageddon (Rev.16:14,15,16) ....go to chapter 14?  :doh: The scenes of Rev. are not strictly in order..? some are even meanwhiles..?
:Peace2: :girlheart:

I love when you  share   your thoughts sister Marie  , :dsunny:
  It  always  sparks   some  more scriptures   that connects   other collective thoughts .
  Hopefully  building up   in our most holy faith    and not vain imaginations   ...

  Our keeping our  hope  alive , is in the Lord Jesus Christ , amen !

  You made me think of Jesus Words  of prophecy !!!!!! :banana:

He said   it shall be like the days of Noah  ,  Now to me    , I see that is when the flood of lies come  from satan   to sweep the faith off the earth and   kept in the ark /safety  , as Noah meaning "rest, repose", and his sons   8 souls saved   though 
and from baptism of 
a watery death  , flooding the earth  ,   Jesus  is [the living ark of the covenant /heavenly  rest for us ] now ,  Jesus states ,  when I return will I find faith  in the earth ,   Peter goes no to describe   the end times with  the  fire  baptism as to destroy the works of satan's power   because the fiery trials   are testing the faith and purifying it  though suffering , as we call upon the name of the LORD to be saved    finding that  promised rest  in Jesus Christ   :HeartThrob:....  many will not do this as described , but continue to blaspheme   God   because of the great heat and pressure ....  from the  seals opened and vials being poured out  described in Revelations
 


Matt 24 Readiness at Any Hour
(Genesis 6:1-7; Mark 13:32-37; Luke 12:35-48)

36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.

39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away.

So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.   

  I can  see this as the corruptible image   being   [destroyed ] as the incorruptible  remains  .  we have to think of Jesus saying  ,    the angels will   gather    and bind up    the tares   first  to be burned   !    from Jesus doing this amazing dividing   with 
Holy Spirit   &  fire   in Luke 12 ;49     from   the  two laws working in mankind   simultaneously ,  death and life   are ours all things are ours    and we are Christs   and Christ belongs to God .

  Because Jesus gave a glorious clue   when He said  , man shall not live by bread  alone [ the bread of heaven being the Lord Jesus Christ  Himself ]  but every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God ...    :banana:

  Jesus Christ testimony   and witness   is the Spirit of prophecy  ,   what was ,   the examples for us   to study in the WORD by the Holy Spirit witness also   and what is
as we see it happening    as to the things to come  after ....

   To me  sister Marie ,   Gods Word is always perpetual   [as occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted]  and applies at all times  and in all ways  possible .Because nothing is impossible with God .

I believe it's Luke 21:24 (?) which says Jerusalem will/would be trampled until the times of the gentiles are complete..I can't think that was only until 70 a.d.?

AMEN !!!!!  GOD IS ALWAYS and unchanging and unending   ''WORD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH !!''.
   Blessings always to you and yours Sis Marie !!   

[rosered]

 

  ps , I  was thinking also about this "image of God "     that we hold in our hearts and limit  God in any form or way ,  coming  from  any  deception  , that  is  made with  our  own  thoughts    and other mens thoughts or of the devils lies and how they must line up with GODS  TRUTH !

  Anything    out of line  must  be destroyed/shattered    and taken out of the way  , so the Truth can actually set us free  from all forms bondage    to death and  sin and evil of any kind !!     :banana:  made new and innocent and purified  completely  whole 

  than  we can glorify GOD   100%   as TRUTH :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen Rose! ..And that ark of safety being Him, the logos, truth.. When asked "what will be the sign..?" What He said most was deception.. misleading.. beware no one misleads.. enticing away from the ark of safety. And thank goodness we have the truth written, especially that loaf of the N. "Testament", for the heart is tricky above all things! To say nothing of all confusions being upon the very forehead of our world! ...'gods' of the air (waves? lol) those popular trends and winds of confusion and outright deceptions.. That iron (unbreakable) rule(r)/rod of measure as to what is true and what is not, being truth! "His Word is Truth". Truth shatters - cannot be shattered.

Purity consumes impurity.. Truth consumes untruth.. Life! consumes death.. Spirit consumes carnal.. Perfection consumes "missing the mark"..

     :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[DavidFord]

IMO, there hasn't been and there won't be a bodily resurrection.  When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they died spiritually.  The promised resurrection pertained to not physical death, but rather spiritual death.  The resurrection wasn't to be from physical death, but rather resurrection from spiritual death.

If I claimed that dead people's bodies got resurrected, even as cemeteries remained undisturbed, *nobody* would believe me.  Hymenaeus and Philetus didn't claim that a physical resurrection had occurred.
2 Timothy 2 (NKJV)
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

IMO, at the end of the Old Covenant Mosaic Age-- which ended with the utter, definitive end of the Old Covenant animal sacrifice system via Jerusalem's and the temple's destruction in A.D. 70 and resulting exile-- there was a spiritual resurrection, at which time Daniel and many others were resurrected.

IMO, Daniel 12's prophecies have all occurred/ been fulfilled/ come to pass.  Rev 20:11-12 and Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14, 26-27 have occurred.  IMO, those now on earth are living not under the Old Covenant/ in the Mosaic Age, but rather under the New Covenant/ in the Messianic Age.

_The Resurrection:  Israel's Old Testament Hope in Chronological Order_ by Samuel G. Dawson
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Israels-Testament-Chronological-Order-ebook/dp/B07DWB3RFG/

[rosered]

  Dear   David ,
    the transfiguration  of Jesus Christ is the proof , and God  is   our heavenly witness  in my opinion ...  it was on mount Hermon    In Biblical the meaning of the name Hermon is: Anathema, devoted to destruction.

Mount Hermon (2814 metres or 9,232 feet high), was suggested by R. H. Fuller and J. Lightfoot for two reasons: It is the highest in the area (and the Transfiguration took place on "an high mountain" (Matthew 17:1)), and it is located near Caesarea Philippi (Matthew 16:13), where the previous events reportedly took  place at .


The transfiguration of Jesus is an event reported in the New Testament when Jesus is transfigured and becomes radiant in glory upon a mountain. The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36) describe it, and the Second Epistle of Peter also refers to it


(2 Peter 1:16–18).16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

...18O earth, do not cover my blood; may my cry for help never be laid to rest.

19Even now my witness is in heaven, and my advocate is on high!

20My friends are my scoffers as my eyes pour out tears to God....

Romans 1:9
God, whom I serve with my spirit in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you

Philippians 1:8
God is my witness how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2:5
As you know, we never used words of flattery or any pretext for greed. God is our witness!

Genesis 31:50
If you mistreat my daughters or take other wives, although no one is with us, remember that God is a witness between you and me."

Job 16:18
O earth, do not cover my blood; may my cry for help never be laid to rest.

Job 19:25
But I know that my Redeemer lives, and that at the last He will stand upon the earth.

Job 25:2
"Dominion and awe belong to Him; He establishes harmony in the heights of heaven.

Job 31:2
For what is the allotment of God from above, or the heritage from the Almighty on high?

Psalm 89:37
like the moon, established forever, a faithful witness in the sky." Selah

Psalm 148:1
Hallelujah! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise Him in the highest places.


Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.



1 Samuel 12:5
And he said unto them, The LORD is witness against you, and his anointed is witness this day, that ye have not found ought in my hand. And they answered, He is witness.

Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Romans 9:1
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

on high.

Job 25:2
Dominion and fear are with him, he maketh peace in his high places.

Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,


1 Corinth 15

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead.


Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die,


but they will be raised to live forever.


43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory.


They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

45 The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.

47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.



54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:

"Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?"

56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless.
   

[DavidFord]

the transfiguration  of Jesus Christ is the proof , and God  is   our heavenly witness  in my opinion ...  it was on mount Hermon

What exactly was on Mount Hermon?

"Mount Hermon (2814 metres or 9,232 feet high), was suggested by R. H. Fuller and J. Lightfoot"
Suggested by them for being what?

[rosered]

the transfiguration  of Jesus Christ is the proof , and God  is   our heavenly witness  in my opinion ...  it was on mount Hermon

What exactly was on Mount Hermon?

"Mount Hermon (2814 metres or 9,232 feet high), was suggested by R. H. Fuller and J. Lightfoot"
Suggested by them for being what?

  question 1 )  the transfiguration  of Jesus Christ
  question 2 ) The place the transfiguration took place   they most likely say   was Mount Hermon

[DavidFord]

I believe it's Luke 21:24 (?) which says Jerusalem will/would be trampled until the times of the gentiles are complete..
I can't think that was only until 70 a.d.?

What are your thoughts on Rev 17:10?
Revelation 17:10 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/17.htm
"And there are seven Kings; five have fallen and one is, and there is another not yet come, and when he comes, a little remaining time is given to him."

What's your opinion of Kenneth Gentry's 3 internal-evidence arguments for Revelation being written before A.D. 70 during the reign of Nero?

Compelling Internal Evidence For The Early Date View Of The Book Of Revelation
https://youtu.be/ZngW7fp_wvk
1) Rev 11:1-2
Lk 21:24
Rev 1:1

2) Rev 3:9
Gal 6:16
Philippians 3:3
Rom 2:28-29, 3:1-2
'they say they're Jews but they're not true Jews-- we followers of Yeshua the promised Meshikha _are_ the true Jews'
Judaism and Christianity were commingled prior to Jerusalem's destruction.
After Jerusalem's and the temple's destruction in A.D. 70, Judaism and Christianity became separated.  In A.D. 80, a formal curse against followers of the Nazarene Jesus started being used.

3) 7 kings/emperorers/caesars-- 5 fallen:  Julius Caesar.  Augustus.  Tiberius.  Gaius.  Claudius.
1 now is:  Nero [died A.D. 68, reigned 13 1/2 years]
1 to come and reign a short period:  Galba [reigned 6 months]

Jewish historian Josephus said Julius Caesar was the 1st caesar.
Suetonius's _Lives of the 12 Caesars_ starts with Julius Caesar.
Tacitus is the odd man out, by starting with Augustus.

Re: the possible rejoinder that Nero's persecution was not worldwide, do you think this Caesar Augustus-required registering was worldwide?:
Luke 2 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2&version=NKJV
1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do you think Rev 11:1-2 was written before, or after, the temple's destruction?

Revelation 11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/11.htm
1 And a reed was given to me like a rod and the Angel was standing and said, "Rise and measure the Temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it," 2 "And the inner court of the Temple leave out and do not measure it, because that is given to the Gentiles, and they will trample The Holy City forty two months.  3 "And I shall grant my two witnesses to prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days while wearing sackcloth."