Some that Saw Jesus Die Witnessed Jesus' Return in Power and Glory
Jesus prophesied to the high priest, [Mark 14:62]"ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Mark 14:61-62 (KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and *ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.*
Jesus prophesied that the [Mt 16:27-28]"Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels.... Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Matthew 16:27-28 For *the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels;* and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, *There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.*
Jesus prophesied that [Mt 24:30, 34]"shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. .... This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And *then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.*
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, *This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.*
Jesus prophesied that people would [Luke 21:27, 32]"see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
*6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.*
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
*20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.*
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
*24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.*
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
*27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.*
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
*32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.*
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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Do you agree with me that the writer of Revelation stated that Jesus [Rev 1:7]"cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him"?
Do you agree with me that the writers of James and Revelation thought [James 5:8]"the coming of the Lord draweth nigh"?
Rev 1 (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants *things which must shortly come to pass;* and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: .... 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for *the time is at hand.* .... 7 Behold, *he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, **and they also which pierced him:** and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.* Even so, Amen.
Rev 22
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants *the things which must shortly be done.* 7 Behold, *I come quickly:* blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. .... 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for *the time is at hand.* .... 12 And, behold, *I come quickly;* and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. .... 20 He which testifieth these things saith, *Surely I come quickly.* Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. *Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.*
James 5:7-9
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for *the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.*
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, *the judge standeth before the door.*
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Do you agree with me that the writers of these books thought they were living in the "last days"/"last times"?: 1 John. 1 Peter. 1 Corinthians. Hebrews.
1 John 2:18 Little children, *it is the last time:* and *as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.*
Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For *many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.* ....
23 Then *if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.*
24 For *there shall arise false Christs,* and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore *if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.*
27 *For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.*
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but *was manifest in these last times for you,*
1 Peter 4:7 But *the end of all things is at hand:*
be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Corinthians 7:29-31
29 But this I say, brethren, *the time is short:* it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for *the fashion of this world passeth away.*
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and *they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.*
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath *in these last days* spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once *in the end of the world hath he appeared* to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 10:37 For *yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.*
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Do you agree with me that the writers of 2 Timothy and Jude warned their readers about danger "in the last days"/ "in the last time"?
Jude 1:17-19 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be *mockers in the last time,* who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that *in the last days perilous times shall come.*
Do you agree with Peter that a prophecy by Joel was fulfilled i.e. occurred [Acts 2:17]"in the last days"?
Acts 2
1 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. ....
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
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Do you think that "all nations"/"many nations" are presently flowing unto "the house of the Lord"?
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass *in the last days,* that *the mountain [foundation?] of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,* and shall be exalted above the hills; *and all nations shall flow unto it.*
Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and *people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come,* and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Rev 21:9-10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Do you think Jesus has, or hasn't, become the cornerstone?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
Ps 144:12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth;
that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Jeremiah 51:26 And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the Lord.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
1 Peter 2:6-7 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
Do you think Jesus was accurate, or inaccurate, in his prediction that his group of 12 disciples, suffering persecution while going from Israeli city to Israeli city preaching, wouldn't finish visiting all the cities of Israel before the Son of man came?
Matthew 10 (KJV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ....
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. ....
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Some leads were provided by:
Second Coming Of Jesus Christ in 70 AD
https://youtu.be/Vjc1Aa0a0rk
New Covenant Vs Old Covenant
https://youtu.be/pvA_sWP6fGk
More handouts: bottom of
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730
Josephus, Book VI, Chapter 5, Section 3 (Entire)
http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_theological.html#Book_VI,_Chapter_V,_Section_2
The Signs That Preceded The Destruction .... Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year (4). Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eight day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day-time; which light lasted for half an hour (5). This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.
Tisha Be'AV - Churban HaBayit
At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner, [court of the temple,] which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night (6). Now, those that kept watch in the temple came thereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared, that this signal forshewed the desolation that was coming upon them.
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities (7). Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking (8), and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." (9)
"A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities." (Chilton, Jerusalem Under Siege) ....
Hi David ,
I believe the scriptures Jesus Christ Is fulfilling all things .
Not so much with human eyes , but the single eye , Yes by the Light and knowledge of GOD .
the cross looked weak and beggarly to the human eyes , and an example of faith works was the centurion whom believed truly this is the Son of God ... awakened by faith out of sleep /death about the things of God ...
by his own experience How could he testify of what he knew except by the Holy Spirit poured out on him to believe and speak of Gods glory ? we have this witness now to this day added with our own experiences of the Holy Spirit working in us too , because we believe it is truth . ... Matt 27 The Centurion at the Cross.
MATT. XXVII.54. Comp. MARK XV.39.
"Now, when the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying: Truly this was the Son of God."
LUKE XXIII.47.
"Now, when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying: Certainly this was a righteous man."
QuoteJesus prophesied to the high priest, [Mark 14:62]"ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Jesus prophesied that the [Mt 16:27-28]"Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels.... Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Jesus prophesied that people would [Luke 21:27, 32]"see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Yes the prophecy come to pass !! the law puts you to death , Paul said I was alive without the law once , than it came and put me to death . the old man of sin must not rule our hearts any longer , but Christ sitting in our hearts to motivate good works from the Father , no one is above his master / Lord , He becomes our strength and purpose , making all things new .
QuoteDo you agree with me that the writer of Revelation stated that Jesus [Rev 1:7]"cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him"?
Do you agree with me that the writers of James and Revelation thought [James 5:8]"the coming of the Lord draweth nigh"?
Yes , the great cloud of witnesses , all are found in the HOLY SPIRIT giving life and good things to those whom ask God for help .
Hebrews 12 1 Therefore,
since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. 2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.... Colo 1 The Supremacy of Christ
15The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.
All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together....
This is a pretty powerful witness and TRUTH . we should all put our faith in .
Seeing with the eyes of FAITH , we know everything will be fulfilled as promised by GODS WORD that can never return to Him Void , but purposed
we do see iniquity abounding now in our days and yet we know Jesus told us not to harden our hearts and become cold and dead to God and we know also because iniquity abounds the grace of GOD abounds the more .
So we would not become so easily shaken by the chaos we see the old heavens and earth becoming .......
GODS promise to make all things new and living By His One of a kind Son will accomplish everything He has set it it to do from the beginning to the end of all things as we know it .
Ever look up ''all things '' in the bible ? A great study of faith in Gods grace though the Lord Jesus Christ/ Word of God while becoming students to the Word of God / Jesus Christ fulfilling all things of heaven and earth and below . and covers everything for all times and ages .
25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked,
"Who then can be saved?" 26Jesus looked at them and said,
"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27"Look," Peter replied, "we have left everything to follow You. What then will there be for us?"...
Romans 14 11
It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God." 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.... we all will or have or even are doing now ..... Give an account of ourselves before the Living GOD .....
Rev 5
The Scroll with Seven Seals
...2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it.
4And I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it....
Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Revelation 5:13
And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea,
and all that is in them, saying: "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!"
Covers everything possible and impossible to man , the seals open when the Lamb Jesus becomes your savior and GOD sits on the throne of your heart ...
I believe this is why no man knows , Only the Father only , because GOD chooses whom these things come to individually or as many tombs /our hearts /where death reigned as He wants to open and prepare and now sit upon .
It is as individual as God made personalities , OF whom would have the Word of Life coming forth out of them as a witness and to testify of His glory through the Great Holy Spirit , the eternal witness , that always was and is and will be known and made known .
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
Quote from: DavidFord on February 08, 2019, 12:19:49 PM
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
I believe we have to quit looking at mans witness and Look to GOD for our unmovable witness
mankind makes us doubt and confuses us all , puts up stumbling blocks along the way of our race set before us , but if your heart becomes pure innocent , like a little childs , so curious and teachable and willing to obey , to actually know GODS DESIRES , just ask Him over and over again to show you the way and truth and life .
God promises to fill us with more and more knowledge and love for Him...... to know God is to love Him , the knowledge that puffs up one against another is forbidden fruit though , we have to be humbled , God rebukes and scourges every child received into His kingdom / realm for the greater good of all as ONE and One for all .
Quote from: rosered on February 08, 2019, 12:32:25 PM
I believe we have to quit looking at mans witness and Look to GOD for our unmovable witness
Do you think it's OK to review eyewitness and historical accounts? The 4 Gospels consist of such.
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilius (c. 265-339) Bishop of Cesarea, in Palestine, written in A.D. 325
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/0325_eusebius_history.html
BOOK III, CHAPTER VII.
The Predictions of Christ.
It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground." And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, "For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." And again: "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour's passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,--during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
CHAPTER III, VIII.
The Signs that Preceded the War.
Taking, then, the work of this author, read what he records in the sixth book of his History. His words are as follows: "Thus were the miserable people won over at this time by the impostors and false prophets; but they did not heed nor give credit to the visions and signs that foretold the approaching desolation. On the contrary, as if struck by lightning, and as if possessing neither eyes nor understanding, they slighted the proclamations of God. At one time a star, in form like a sword, stood over the city, and a comet, which lasted for a whole year; and again before the revolt and before the disturbances that led to the war, when the people were gathered for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus, at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone about the altar and the temple that it seemed to be bright day; and this continued for half an hour. This seemed to the unskillful a good sign, but was interpreted by the sacred scribes as portending those events which very soon took place. And at the same feast a cow, led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. And the eastern gate of the inner temple, which was of bronze and very massive, and which at evening was closed with difficulty by twenty men, and rested upon iron-bound beams, and had bars sunk deep in the ground, was seen at the sixth hour of the night to open of itself. And not many days after the feast, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisium, a certain marvelous vision was seen which passes belief. The prodigy might seem fabulous were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the calamities which followed deserving of such signs. For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities. And at the feast which is called Pentecost, when the priests entered the temple at night, as was their custom, to perform the services, they said that at first they perceived a movement and a noise, and afterward a voice as of a great multitude, saying, 'Let us go hence.'
ps I have been exalted and truly abased by God many times already and just come out of a personal prison
I never want to go back to that way of thinking ever again , accusing the lesser and most hateful and spiteful folks to be around , but to become like them !!! God help..... no way ever again , to sad :sigh:
Its been horrible and have suffered , mind body and spirit , health and languish of the soul , not happy at all
felt cast off for a long while after tasting the goodness of God , to loose that was a devastating loss .
Would love everyone to be saved and kept safe in the good grace of Gods mercy , I pray MERCY over judgment for all .
just a personal note here .
God bless and keep you and all
QuoteQuote from: rosered on Today at 12:32:25 PM
I believe we have to quit looking at mans witness and Look to GOD for our unmovable witness
Do you think it's OK to review eyewitness and historical accounts? The 4 Gospels consist of such.
yes MOST definitely ! these examples are for our benefit .
Look at all the bible knowledge we have at our fingertips and able to read freely and yet the famine is what ?
for the hearing of the WORD OF GOD , Not the WORD OF GOD its all around us and easily available to anyone anywhere ears have been stopped up , it seems and the necks of those whom has become stiff necked , unless they would turn from that way of doing and God would heal them ..
the famine for the hearing the word of God , lots of lies are being told about GOD , FALSE WITNESS .....Lies of the serpent are being done in GODS name accusing the brethren before GOD day and night !! it is an evil that is escalating at a rapid pace .......
we are not to accuse , but pray for them all and be good to them , setting the same example the LORD did before His enemies of the cross . no one takes it to heart it seems :sigh:
Amos 8 10I will turn your feasts into mourning and all your songs into lamentation.
I will cause everyone to wear sackcloth and every head to be shaved. I will make it like a time of mourning for an only son, and its outcome like a bitter day.
11
Behold! The days are coming," declares the Lord GOD, "when I will send a famine on the land— not a famine of bread or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
12People will stagger from sea to sea and roam from north to east, seeking the word of the LORD, but they will not find it....
I do believe this prophecy is very real and active right now .
Blessings always in the Lord .
control-f/ "find" for: comet
Pseudo Hegesippus, writer unknown, possibly Ambrose of Milan, (Approx. 370-375), Translated from Latin into English
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/0370_hegesippus-pseudo_jerusalem.html
XLIV. For through a year almost above the temple itself a comet burned, extending a certain likeness of fire and a sword announcing with iron and fire the coming destruction of the people and the kingdom and the city itself. What indeed did the likeness of a sword announce if not war, what the fire if not the burning? Moreover it was seen before the people dissociated themselves from the Romans. During the very days of the Passover on the eighth day of the month of Xanthicus and through every night around the ninth hour the temple and its altar so shone with light as if it were day, remaining daily through half an hour almost, which the crowd explained to be seen as an indication of the people heaping up and having been driven there as if the time were at hand for recovering their freedom.[p. 392] The wiser thought the contrary, because that type of star is accustomed to announce war. Nor was there anyone who thought our people to have spoken something foreign from our religion and teaching, first because we added not what seems good to us, but what happened, or what were the opinions at that time, what the wise people felt, what the foolish. Nor was anything said from the doctrines of the Jews, thus it might seem to have been written by us, as if in truth not as if in obscurity and figures of speech we were contriving their religion to have been sent in advance, so that more perfect things might follow. For about the signs of the stars even in the Gospels we are taught that there were signs in the sun and the moon and the stars.6 They assert also that in the birth of a calf, when the victim stood before the altar, in the middle of the temple a sheep was born in the very celebration of the religious rites we mentioned above, also the heavy eastern interior door, which was accustomed to be closed at evening with the great effort of twenty men, fastened with iron bars, through several nights was spontaneously unbarred, and scarcely afterwards was shut by the guards. That also many thought a sign of future benefits, to which about to enter the door was opening. The more learned however said the protection of the temple having been loosened to be seen, that whatever was inside would be plundered by enemies, the worship would go out, devastation would enter, fame would be emptied, the offering would be destroyed. Which even before, when they crucified Christ Iesus, the narrative teaches the meaning clearly. Also after many days a certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots [p. 393] and armed battle arrays, by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded. Moreover in the celebration itself of the Pentecost the priests entering the interior of the temple at night time, that they might celebrate the usual sacrifices, asserted themselves at first to have felt a certain movement and a sound given forth, afterwards even to have heard shouted in a sudden voice: "we cross over from here."
:2c:no doubt many such things occurred as the old law covenant passed away...and God's spirit was transposed to dwell in men.......
yet,wars and desolations have continued unto the end...and the fullness of the gentiles is here.satan is released from the abyss
to go forth deceiving all the nations...and the camp of the Holy city[man with his free gift of eternal life]is surrounded/underseige
many body temples defiled and with abominations that cause terror.,strage'fire'being offered up.........He putting up with much
patience the vessels fitted for destruction[these bodies under going this death]..in order to show His great mercy unto the vessels fitted
for mercy[our spirits transposed to always dwell in heaven] the wall of fire shallcome down from heaven and consume
our wicked adversaries...and we,too,shall also say in spirit...WE CROSS[pass]OVER FROM HERE.
Malachi 3;1
OP -
I believe some standing there - saw the kingdom in the transfiguration six days later.. and when they looked again they saw "only Jesus" - the kingdom!
I believe every eye will witness His arrival upon what I think of as 'playback' of all history during Judgment 'Day'.
And at the time of His full and literal return, I believe every eye (alive at that time) will see Him coming on the clouds in great glory, including Israel which pierced Him..
I am a literalist. Though of course there is always the spiritual simile and metaphor involved, but to me literal is the collective so of more glory.. but of course, without the individual / spiritual fulfillment, there is no collective!
But for instance, if a New Jerusalem city is prophesied to come to the Earth, I believe it will literally happen. (Glory!) And the resurrection believers of all ages were already upon Earth during the millennium, so I can't believe the New Jerusalem of Rev 21 to be the church/believers, but a literal new capital of Earth.
The question He was asked in Matthew 24 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm - seems to be two questions - when will the stones of the temple complex be thrown down? (70a.d.) and - what will be the signs of His coming / return and the end of the ages (yes I think g165 leans more toward the plural than g166..
"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved.."
- "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (I believe in reading this as literal, so not only about the coming of God's Holy Spirit on Pentecost, or about 70 a.d.
"29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (appear so/great earthquake prophesied elsewhere). 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
And the things completing before 'this' generation passes is in context to it's connected verses..
- "32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree (Israel): When its branch has already become tender and puts-forth-leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation (of the fig tree sprouting) will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
"To eat and drink with drunkards" I believe includes both literal - getting drunk/dissolute lifestyle; and also as metaphor for drunken perception.. the confusion that is the forehead/psyche of the unsaved (babble on and on) world empire(s) of man, i.e. confusion.
:2c: :Peace2:
I cannot do it myself, but I'll leave this here:
https://alwaysbeready.com/preterism-refuted
Hi ML123! I've been missing you! :hiya: :friendstu:
Romans9;28for the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.
v29Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants.......Peter and the sheet descending and ascending backup
this child will be a sign spoken against. rising and falling of many in Israe.John1;51......
Rev 21;2Holy city descending out of heaven from God.Man's spirit is a direct descendant of God the Father..and no man is his Father
the seed of those first-born in heaven that fall unto the earth and die[sown incorruption and weakness[flesh]]do ascend..and
meet the Lord in the clouds of heaven. :2c:
Quote from: marie glen on February 08, 2019, 06:20:52 PM
Hi ML123! I've been missing you! :hiya: :friendstu:
Hi MG! I've haven't left, just haven't spoke here as much lately :friendstu:
Quote from: rosered on February 08, 2019, 12:32:25 PM
I believe we have to quit looking at mans witness and Look to GOD for our unmovable witness
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: DavidFord on February 08, 2019, 12:35:20 PM
Do you think it's OK to review eyewitness and historical accounts? The 4 Gospels consist of such.
Of course! But especially the gospel eye witness accounts (testimonies).. And to me, what I read in God's Word trumps all other things.. and accounts.. and thoughts, theories or anything of man.. And I think it's only by consistent long term reading, study and prayerful seeking.. Because no one part stands alone.. and it requires well rounded consideration of all the pertaining verses on a topic. So I think it takes us some time for the full picture to emerge. And I think He always confirms truths and also builds upon them.. I always figure if there's no follow up building upon an idea or view I have about something biblical, then it's very likely in error somehow.
For example, i once for a short while, believed in eternal annihilation. I figured surely God would indeed reach most people before they die.. but those that would not be reached would truly perish. But the follow up I got on that was a consideration of, or pointing out of the fruit of such belief. How it always descends into the idea of superior and inferior.. etc. As my thought or justification of annihilation - seeing as God is Love - was that anyone that ended up as lost was not created by God at all, but somehow by Satan and thus were literally children of the devil. And those ideas always just lead to really really bad stuff.. Besides how the Word says we were
all children of the devil, not just some!
So always with the study I think is so important the waiting upon Him to follow up on things or to tear down.. And for the final word on things..
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 08, 2019, 08:12:56 PM
Quote from: marie glen on February 08, 2019, 06:20:52 PM
Hi ML123! I've been missing you! :hiya: :friendstu:
Hi MG! I've haven't left, just haven't spoke here as much lately :friendstu:
P.S. - that was a good link..
pointed out how there was preterist view way back in Paul's day -
QUOTE:
2 Timothy 2:17-18
"...Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some."
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you."
Also how -
QUOTE:
Matthew 10:23
"When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." ...a prevailing Jewish unreceptivity to the gospel prevented the disciples from going through all the cities of Israel. And to this day the job of taking the gospel to all the Jews has not been completed.
And also how Revelation's " 'I am coming to you quickly.' " is presumed to mean "soon" - but, the word is the Greek word "tachús" which refers to a swift event not necessarily a soon event.
And how the first church fathers did not mention Christ's Second Coming as having already occurred..
And verses like this don't fit into past events..
2 Thessalonians 2:8
"And then the lawless one [that is one of the titles given to the coming world leader] will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."good article..
Part of the problem though, I think, is the futurist view seeks to put the Book of Revelation (and all other 'last days' prophecy) in a box labeled 7 years only.
If only more people could understand.. Revelation for instance is like a play and an orchestra with scenes and curtains.. and meanwhile scenes..
But it all fits in the Seals.. which are preterist and futurist.. especially as the Seals (elements of the latter age) are described in their bud, but also in the description so early on, is their full maturity. Kind of locks the vision right there, "for many days".. Chapters as inserts do the same thing later on..
Revelation 13, for example is both preterist and futurist! So is 12. Both inserts and basically total histories all on their own.
(oh yes.. what about the verse in Daniel that knowledge would greatly increase? Do we see this in the modern age? and Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue of world empires through the ages and the mountain (kingdom) made without (human) hands will strike the feet of the statue (the ten toes, divisions, "ten kings of the last hour")... and the mountain/kingdom will fill the earth.. And after that thrones are set up for judgment.. I can't believe the Kingdom is established on Earth when terrible things are still occurring.
And I can't forget also how Jesus said to Jerusalem (Israel, the Jews) -
You will not see me again until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" Mt.23:39. (And notice how the Sealing of 144,000 of Rev. 7 goes right along with that.. not that the scene is literally with the sealed literally in the heavens.. but sealed and thus worship.. (yes, it can be a confusing book :laughing7: separating the literal from the not so literal.. and getting the vision, the literal out from the symbols and the metaphors! Pretty dang creative.. An awesome puzzle.. Looking back upon that great day called Judgment 'Day', it won't be so hard.. And will be part of all the proof which is proving God right in all things..
Romans 3:3,4 - What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Certainly not!
Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that You may be proved right when You speak, and prevail when You(Yhvh) are judged."
Quote from: sheila on February 08, 2019, 06:37:55 PM
Romans9;28for the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.
v29Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants.......Peter and the sheet descending and ascending backup
this child will be a sign spoken against. rising and falling of many in Israe.John1;51......
Rev 21;2Holy city descending out of heaven from God.Man's spirit is a direct descendant of God the Father..and no man is his Father
the seed of those first-born in heaven that fall unto the earth and die[sown incorruption and weakness[flesh]]do ascend..and
meet the Lord in the clouds of heaven. :2c:
Sheila, do you have any thoughts about the vision - in Zechariah 5, about three woman? One in a basket,
called "wickedness" and two women, coming "with the wind in their wings" who have "wings like a stork" and they
fly swiftly with the basket.. This image has come to my mind twice just recently, I think in my mind the 3 women were wearing white.
(Sort of toga-like garments)..
(..and they carry the basket "to the land of Shinar to set it on a base".. an idol? as in a faith/belief/prophet,prophesying? Shinar of course was the land of Babylon.)
Is it the same, do you think, as the flying scroll that "goes out
over the face of the whole earth" of the same chapter? (I'm inclined to think that..)
Here are 2 videos as well:
https://youtu.be/QupdjuUEFiU
https://youtu.be/3r30CC88tJ8
HiMarie,I myself when I read that am inclined to think the same.I see captive Jerusalem[unrefined of her drossby Christ]as the woman
in the basket with lid of lead....Jezebel spirit Thyatyra and Laodacean church as wind in their wings/also being carried offof winds
ofdoctrines.the scroll of curses for robbers/thieves that turn the Fathers House into a denof thieves[like Balaam paid to pronounce curses
on Israel/men].Israel was supposed to be a blessing unto all nations..we are to BLESSandCURSE NOT MEN MADE IN GOD'SIMAGE...
their foundation is not CHRISTandHIS BLESSING GOOD NEWS AND PEACE UNTO ALL MEN
I willpray about this..I would like to have HIS mind/thoughts on it....
shinar[sin] I spronounced sinar=sina[e]r..those with their sin remaining for not forgiving their brother's/fellowmans; or rejected Christ
and His instructions to freeley forgive..and bless. curse not:2c: Psalms 109;17He loved to pronounce a curse,mayitcome
on him,hefoundnopleasurein blessing..mayit befarfrom him
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 08, 2019, 06:16:16 PM
https://alwaysbeready.com/preterism-refuted
Thanks. Do you think Jesus was accurate, or inaccurate, in his prediction that his group of 12 disciples, suffering persecution while going from Israeli city to Israeli city preaching [Mt 10]"to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," wouldn't finish visiting all the cities of Israel before the Son of man came?
Matthew 10
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. ....
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, *Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:*
6 *But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.*
7 And *as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.*
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And *whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.*
15 Verily I say unto you, *It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.*
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for *they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;*
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And *ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.*
23 But *when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.*
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And *fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:* but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/afterlife-the-messiah-101/
In the End of Days, the Messiah will gather the Jewish exiles to Israel and the Temple will be rebuilt. Some time later, the dead will be resurrected and reunited with their souls. This new, perfected universe is known as the World to Come. This is a common–yet too simplistic–presentation of Jewish eschatology (literally, the study or theory of the End). In Jewish tradition, there is little consensus on how, what, and when things happen in the Great Beyond. .... Broadly speaking, the Messiah will be a descendant of King David who, in the future, will reign over a peaceful and prosperous Israel.
Do you think Jesus is the Meshikha/ Messiah/ Anointed/ Christ?
The Temple has been rebuilt in the spiritual realm (Rev 21:9-10), and the stone-- Jesus-- the builders rejected has become its cornerstone. Jesus descended from King David on his mother's side and his father's side. Jesus' mother Mary was a descendant of King David (see Matthew's geneology, Mt 1; Greek mss. of the NT have a mistranslation-- the original Aramaic says Mary had a gbra - guardian male i.e. father Joseph, besides her husband Joseph). The Joseph that was Jesus' father was a descendant of King David (see Luke's geneology, Lk 3).
Do you think that "all nations"/"many nations" are presently flowing unto "the house of the Lord"?
Isaiah 2:2 (KJV) And it shall come to pass *in the last days,* that *the mountain [foundation?] of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,* and shall be exalted above the hills; *and all nations shall flow unto it.*
Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and *people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come,* and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Rev 21:9-10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Do you think Jesus has, or hasn't, become the cornerstone?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Psalm 118:22 The stone which the builders refused
is become the head stone of the corner.
Psalm 144:12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth;
that our daughters may be as corner stones,
polished after the similitude of a palace:
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Jeremiah 51:26 And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the Lord.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
1 Peter 2:6-7 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
the temple being rebuilt by Jesus Is with man's spirit..and it is rebuilt in heaven with living stones[spirit]and timbers of trees
of righteousness[spirits of men] :2c:
Sheila,
"the temple being rebuilt by Jesus Is with man's spirit..and it is rebuilt in heaven with living stones[spirit]and timbers of trees of righteousness[spirits of men] :2c:"
:iagree:
David,
I will say that I think you have done a great job in presenting your case. When I first read the Bible I had many of the concerns that Gary speaks about in the first paragraph of his article below.
The following is taken from the Dew Magazine and is written by Gary Amirault, founder of Tentmaker Ministries.
The Don Preston that Gary mentions is currently doing a youtube series on the Olivet Discourse for anyone that may want some in-depth study on the topic being discussed here.
Blessings all,
Pat
The Coming of Christ in 70 A.D.
By Gary Amirault
There are thousands, perhaps millions, of people who, after reading the Bible, have come to the same conclusion to which one of the most famous atheists, Bertrand Russell, came . He felt Jesus couldn't be Who He said He was because the things He and His apostles said would happen in their time, didn't happen. Below are listed a few of the many passages they would point to and say these things were not fulfilled according to the plain reading of the English text. This list comes from a little booklet entitled, "Can God Tell Time," by Don Preston.
Matt. 10:23--Jesus said He would return in the lifetime of His disciples.
Matt. 16:27-28--Jesus said He would return with His angels to judge all men before every one standing there died.
Matt. 24:29-34--Jesus said He would return in the clouds with His angels--in that generation.
Acts 3:19--Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophecies were fulfilled. If the Old Prophesies have not been fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. (Matthew 5:17-18)
Romans 13:12--Paul said "the day is at hand." That was said 1900 years ago!
1 Cor. 7:28-31--Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short." Again, this was stated 1900 years ago to that generation.
Hebrews 9:28, 10:37--The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then asserted "in a very, very little while He that will come, and will not tarry." Is 1900 years a "little while?"
James 5:7-9--James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord," he says "The coming of the Lord is at hand," and "The judge is standing right at the door."
1 John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour." Again, the last hour was 1900 years ago!
Revelation--this book says no less than ten times that its predictions "must shortly come to pass," were "at hand," were to happen "quickly," there would be "no more delay," etc., etc.
Millions of people have read the Bible and said, "no more delay," "shortly," "quickly," "day is at hand," and "it is the last hour," cannot refer to thousands of years! These people have also had problems with Bible teachers taking scriptures like Daniel's 70 weeks and chopping the last 7 years of the prophecy and separating it by thousands of years from the first 69 weeks! They say if one does this with these kinds of scriptures, then one can turn the Bible into whatever they want.
As a result of Bible teachers twisting scriptures like the ones above and relegating them to our time, many sincere seekers have abandoned Christianity as an institution which declares truth. They have come to the conclusion that since the church teaches that Christ has not yet come back in His second coming, then Jesus and His apostles were false prophets. Therefore, they cannot put their faith and hope in Christianity. In the days ahead, we are going to look at all these scriptures and many more to see if, in fact, they were not fulfilled exactly as stated in the very generation to which Jesus was speaking. We are going to see, Jesus did return to that generation and fulfill everything He and His apostles said was "right at the door."
This world needs light. Many have abandoned any hope in Christianity, not because Jesus Christ missed it, but because many Bible teachers and preachers have missed it, big time! People, you are going to have so much joy seeing the Bible come together like it has never been seen before. We are indeed a blessed people and we are going to be a blessing to the world.
This study will be lengthy and cannot be completely discussed in Dew. The magazine is not designed to do this. We suggest those who want to study this out completely to do the following: 1. Get a copy of Josephus. Many Christian publishers have produced this work. I recommend trying to find an out-of-print version produced by Zondervan publishing edited by Cornfeld. It may be difficult to locate a copy, but it will be worth it if you find it. Most good seminaries will have more than one version of Josephus. He was a Jewish Priest and military commander who was captured by the Romans just prior to the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D. 2. Read the section entitled War of the Jews. You will be amazed! 3. Order the tapes produced by Tentmaker entitled The Rapture of 70 A.D.. These tapes capture the history of Israel and Rome from approximately 30 A.D. to 73 A.D. and connect them with the sayings of Jesus and the apostles while tying Josephus into it. 4. Read future sections of Dew that will deal with the subject.
Just a little side remark on the tapes The Rapture of 70 A.D.. We do not teach the "rapture." This title was selected to attract those who do believe in the "any day now rapture." In 70 A.D. when the Jews were trapped in Jerusalem by the Roman Army, a prophet prophesied that God was going to deliver them. He told them to come to the Temple, the House of God and there God was going to "catch them away." There they waited to be "raptured away" by the God of Israel. Read and see their fate as narrated by Josephus:
"A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get up upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now, there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now, a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such deliverance.
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them."
Josephus then gave a list of many supernatural signs that God gave Israel, which they twisted to their own destruction. It is interesting to note those who were deceived into thinking God was going to rapture them were burned in their "House of God" which was full of their riches. Josephus writes:
"They also burnt down the treasury-chambers, in which was immense quantities of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods, there reposited; and, to all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers, (to contain such furniture). Their riches and their bodies were burned to ashes and blown away by the wind. I suppose the ashes of their bodies being blown away by the wind could qualify for the term "rapture," or "caught up to meet the Lord in the air," but I don't think those who believe in a "any day now rapture" have this in mind. Who knows, perhaps the escapist mentality of today will meet the same fate. The church is certainly the richest institution materially in the entire world and there are certainly many prophets in the land predicting a "rapture" from the tribulations that are to come upon the world. It has used may trickeries to get people to put their money into the church. I see great similarities between the spiritual state of Israel at the end of its age and the present time which many people seem to feel is the end of the "church age." The key question seems to be the ability to read the signs. The majority of the Jews read the signs wrong, which produced their destruction. There was a small group who read them right. They escaped the destruction and were allowed to enter into a new period of time. The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria. They were believers in the Messiah. The above mentioned tape series tells how they escaped.
I am so excited about the things our Father is unveiling for us. We should be grateful to be alive in such a day as this. Truly, we can be messengers of glad tidings. While "church" clings to its buildings, land, and material wealth, you are free to give to the world your spiritual riches in Christ Jesus. Rejoice, ye new heavens and earth!
Quote from: marie glen on February 08, 2019, 09:47:31 PM
which are preterist and futurist..
Gary told me once in a phone conversation that he wasn't against the idea of some things having "
double fulfillment"; i.e., some things having had occurred at an earlier time, and perhaps some sort of future occurrence as well. I don't recall what the specific details were we had been discussing, so I'm not sure what all he might have applied that to.
:Peace2:
"how did Jesus come back around A.D. 70"
On the clouds, with power and great glory.
"wasn't the plan to rebuild the temple, not destroy it?"
Jesus didn't want Jerusalem (and its temple) destroyed (see below), but not enough people listened to him. The devil-- a thief who steals kills and destroys-- in cooperation with wayward people, brought destruction to Jerusalem and its temple. God rebuilt Jerusalem's temple as a spiritual temple that exists in the spiritual realm (a realm that's more-real than the physical, typically-observed-by-humans realm). Jesus is the foundation of that spiritual temple, and _everybody_ in the world is invited to enter that temple-- no restrictions.
Matthew 23 (NKJV)
31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "
'if Christ came back in A.D. 70 why are people still looking up at the sky and waiting?'
Most people know little about Jesus' predictions to his early followers about his return in their generation, and know little about Jerusalem's history in A.D. 67-70. Perhaps there are reasons to think Jesus returns more than once.
Some adherents of Judaism are still awaiting the arrival of a Messiah. Perhaps they're unfamiliar with the evidence that the Messiah came, and is Jesus.
"I love Matt 23"
It is quite robust in its critique of hypocrisy.
What's your opinion about Jesus? Was he: the Messiah? God? Did he live, die, and get resurrected?
yes,He would have shown her the way of peace..and reconciliation with God...He come to save her...she suffered loss..eventhough
saved as through fire.a branch snatched[raptured] from the fire[because of His great love ye sons of men[spirits]are not consumed
some build with wood stone,hay..houses built by the hands of men..[ye have Moses to judge ye]
Now it is the fullness of the gentiles..and the call to'come out of her my people"do we reject His word to Bless and curse not?
judge not and ye shall not be judged?
lest ye receive of her plagues,war/famine/wild beasts/disease...Heed the Holy spirit..therock was struck twice..the wordof Godcome
inflesh put to death's testimony..and the holy spirit 's testimony put to death[2 witnesses][double desolation]SPEAK TO THE ROCK
who can abide the day of His coming..purger/refiner's fire
the birthright/Blessing........Jacob in Laban's house,Joseph in Egypt,Daniel in Babylon
a people dwelling in the center of the earth..without wall..recovered from war[with the dragon] with much livestock[men of little
understanding]man with His free gift of eternal life.....Rev 20;9 :2c:
there are 12 degrees of light..of which the natural is the first level/degree
:2c:the natural being the first level..because we wrestle not flesh and blood...although it certainly appeared in the flesh that Jesus
and the disciples were dealing with flesh men[rulers of heaven-pharisees/sadducees/sanhedren/rulers/kings of earth]
But in actuality it was unseen principalities and powers manifesting in the flesh of the men they controlled/possessed and held
captive to their will. As it was the spirit of God in Jesus..and the holy spirit in His followers.
the son of perdition[spirit]will always lead men to their destruction..and cut them off from the spirit of Christ/God.......until the
Court sits..and the time comes for the overcome saints to receive the kingdom..and Christ /God snatches them from the flames
the very jaws of death...and satan loses what he thinks he had. God does turn over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..thosehard-hearted
andstiff-necked.arrogant people..in order that their spirit be saved....and then snatches such from the hands of the enemy.there
are 'orders' of assembly of our spirits in heaven..some come in last.in their generation. Those of the second heaven and 5th being so
bound,[Enoch]
by these evil spirits.Just as those who receive the token of the Holy spirit..are as Christ in this world,so,too,those who partake
as sharers with the demons. But,God/Christ has blessed all men..and because of this...allmen are appointed to die once......
and will not partake of the secound death LOF...for we know men are NOT cut off,forever..but death/perdition/satan/demons are...
further meditations.......fallen away angels[devils]lead the saints into a ditch[abyss]..when released from the abyss..they
go forth to deceive all the nations[gentilechurches]...and then surround the camp of the Holy city God loves[man with his free gift of
eternal life in the spirit]..because the wicked encompass the righteous..right judgement goes not forth..all these erroneous gospels
doctrines etc war against the mind of the man.another degree of light is man's spirit with free gitft of eternal life and surrounded
of a weak sinful flesh[sin so easy entagles us]bodyof death that can not inherit.
there are those bound underthe earth[2ndheaven]and those bound onthe5th heaven[Enoch] and these satan and his demons
will manifest in some mens flesh that they possess.. Cain..whose face fell because his offering was not acceptable to God..and killed
Abel...the jealous sadducees,pharisees,Judas who were jealous and killed him whose offering was acceptable.Satans offering is
not acceptable to God..constant accusing,decieving,lying with a hard heart full of hate and pride.constantly tempting God
and man made in God's image.laying traps/snares....
I've gone on more than I meant to......
:2c: a little more on woman in a basket...Babylon has become a cage of unclean birds[spirits]
no-one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket.
but if the 'light' that be in you be darkness....
for satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2019, 07:11:37 AM
Quote from: marie glen on February 08, 2019, 09:47:31 PM
which are preterist and futurist..
Gary told me once in a phone conversation that he wasn't against the idea of some things having "double fulfillment"; i.e., some things having had occurred at an earlier time, and perhaps some sort of future occurrence as well. I don't recall what the specific details were we had been discussing, so I'm not sure what all he might have applied that to.
:Peace2:
I agree! I've thought that for a long time..
David, Preterism was something I initially rejected because "obviously" it wasn't true so I wouldn't even let my mind go there...
In the same way that people who believe in hell won't let their mind even think of universal salvation because the Bible "obviously" and "plainly" states there is a hell.
But the passages about Jesus's return seem to involve lots of mental gymnastics and to me I just didn't understand it all. Why did he say people wouldn't taste death before he came? And other things that didn't add up. So, just like how hell didn't make sense to me, I just sort of put it on a shelf, so to speak, and focused on other aspects of my faith.
But one day recently I was reading a website by a UR believer and he had many Preterist articles that I read. It suddenly clicked in my mind and it made sense of so many passages that don't make sense otherwise.
You mentioned many of them already so I won't go into the "evidence" because it's up to everyone to decide for themselves, search it out (or not), or God to reveal things to people in his timing.
To me it aligns with how many didn't believe Jesus was the messiah because he didn't come, do, say, or act how they *expected* the messiah to act so they rejected him, in the same way his second coming was also not how people expected it to happen, but if you look at his own words, there are just too many passages that show that his return had to be within the first century, and had to happen in the way it did, because of the plain rendering of his words. It's funny, but to me it actually is the most literal interpretation of the passages, especially given Jewish prophetic and apocalyptic writing style.
I believe the spiritual to be more real than the material, but I also believe that Jesus's return was described both spiritually and materially and they both happened simultaneously.
I also believe the kingdom is happening simultaneously, spiritually and materially. That is why it is the "new heaven/new earth" (spiritual/material).
I believe we are all participating in leavening the whole lump, to slowly bring forth the kingdom.
Quote from: DavidFord on February 09, 2019, 03:23:10 AM
Broadly speaking, the Messiah will be a descendant of King David who, in the future, will reign over a peaceful and prosperous Israel.
...and (we know it) will fill the Earth.. made up of Israel - which is the born into Israel by natural birth - plus belief in/following Jesus, and the born into Israel by being born again, and "grafted into" the 'tree' called Israel. :cloud9:
Quote from: DavidFord on February 09, 2019, 03:23:10 AM
..The Temple has been rebuilt in the spiritual realm (Rev 21:9-10), and the stone-- Jesus-- the builders rejected has become its cornerstone.
I never thought of that as referring to bible prophecy! But I've not thought a literal 3rd temple would be built in Jerusalem prior to Jesus' return.. but I think of the verse which says the AC one (supposedly an individual, but Rev. 13:13 pinpoints an office not an individual (occurred in 1945, surely?!) seats himself in the seat of God declaring himself as god (little g, the faith, teaching prophecy, yes,teaching! (A belief) which includes prophecy->(huge n big as ya please! :doh: ) ...a belief, theory which implies/declares man to be the highest power..
And the verse in Daniel about setting his palace in the holy land (wrong wording, sorry) was fulfilled in the days of the Maccabees.. Daniel 8:9-14 -- the goat being Greece, and the four horns/generals of Alexander inherited and then two of the horns (particularly) made war.. Antiochus Epiphany then fulfilling those verses perfectly. And it talks about, in the chapter, "in the latter time of their kingdom".. Although in chapter 11 we have him again, but also the last AC. Oy.
Daniel's visions as we know, are not in historical order, because the one about the latter days of
this age and
kingdoms is in chapter 7, especially verses 7 & 19 which describes a 'beast' (governing) that cross references with that one of Rev. 13:1-10, having ten horns, etc. (ten seats? like the little beast of verses 11-18 has two horns? the event of 13:13 pinpointing an office, not an individual as so widely believed.. white rabbit, white rabbit! Sorry :laughing7: I'm reminding myself that I am fast sliding into one of my favorite rabbit holes.
and can rattle on a bit.. But! I have to include this, verse 19 cross references back to the dream statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream! ...oh.. that book of Daniel.. fascinating. I'm a lot behind when it comes to the other prophets.. Gonna try to remedy that one of these days.. :umnick: The beast of Daniel 7:19, thus also 7, has teeth of
iron and nails of bronze.. [Roman/Graeco!] Last world empire will have a Roman/Graeco foundation... The iron (roman, see Dan.2 w/ accurate commentary) -- the Roman breaks in pieces.. the nations.. and devours (consumes.. uses up) the nations. And the bronze (nails, Greek humanism, etc.) will trample and scatter the residue. Iron teeth = iron columns? Roman senates, architecture, politics, etc, etc.. and Greek philosophy, drama (theater, poetry.. oration.. etc).. universities, etc. - Western Civilization gone pornos to sell, sell (capitalism gone extreme, but the ten kings-horns/seats! - um, the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue.. part iron, part clay.. which the mountain of the Lord will strike toppling all of man's empires.. (Dn.2) and truth will begin to fill the world with peace and joy, and mostly love.. which makes the peace and joy! oops, the ten kings of the last hour will consume and raze with fire, Babylon the Great whose forehead (psyche) is mystery babble/all confusion.. responsible for
all slain of Earth.
But as we see, the visions arent' in order which confuses us for a while..
Daniel 12:
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince (-apality?) who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people, Daniel, shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book. (At that time, 144,000?)
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting ageduring contempt. (A 1000yrs later, imo. Like Jesus said, some to a resurrection of life, some to a resurrection of (the) Judgment - Day of Atonement fulfilled! Jn.12:32 & Ps 22:27)
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and
seal the book until the time of the end; many
shall run (travel?) to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Quote from: DavidFord on February 09, 2019, 03:23:10 AM
Do you think that "all nations"/"many nations" are presently flowing unto "the house of the Lord"?
No, I think the gentiles (unbelievers) are (being) filled with rage, Rev. 11:8 (ps.2:1). And I don't believe death has ceased to exist either. But! No matter.. We are all agreed, however it is worked out, God is the savior of all, for Jesus will draw all to Himself. :cloud9: :dsunny:
Quote from: DavidFord on February 09, 2019, 03:23:10 AM
Isaiah 2:2 (KJV) And it shall come to pass *in the last days,* that *the mountain [foundation?] of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,* and shall be exalted above the hills; *and all nations shall flow unto it.*
Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and *people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come,* and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Rev 21:9-10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
This I think is a meanwhile... in the book of Revelation, which kind of confuses the vision..
Quote from: DavidFord on February 09, 2019, 03:23:10 AM
Do you think Jesus has, or hasn't, become the cornerstone?
Yes, but are all the little stones in place?
Quote from: DavidFord on February 09, 2019, 03:23:10 AM
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Psalm 118:22 The stone which the builders refused
is become the head stone of the corner.
Psalm 144:12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth;
that our daughters may be as corner stones,
polished after the similitude of a palace:
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Jeremiah 51:26 And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the Lord.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
1 Peter 2:6-7 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
"ye are being built up into a temple of the Lord".. "lively stones of"..just a bit o' :2c: :gsmile:
Quote from: Patinak on February 09, 2019, 06:50:07 AM
.....The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria..
P.S., Pat, your post seems to be saying one thing the first half and another the second.. No matter, both are true (I believe!) Preterist, has happened. And futurist, will happen. ("He who is, and was, and is to come.") And also current.. :gsmile:
Quote from: marie glen on February 08, 2019, 10:04:39 PM
Quote from: sheila on February 08, 2019, 06:37:55 PM
Romans9;28for the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.
v29Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants.......Peter and the sheet descending and ascending backup
this child will be a sign spoken against. rising and falling of many in Israe.John1;51......
Rev 21;2Holy city descending out of heaven from God.Man's spirit is a direct descendant of God the Father..and no man is his Father
the seed of those first-born in heaven that fall unto the earth and die[sown incorruption and weakness[flesh]]do ascend..and
meet the Lord in the clouds of heaven. :2c:
Sheila, do you have any thoughts about the vision - in Zechariah 5, about three woman? One in a basket, called "wickedness" and two women, coming "with the wind in their wings" who have "wings like a stork" and they fly swiftly with the basket.. This image has come to my mind twice just recently, I think in my mind the 3 women were wearing white.
(Sort of toga-like garments)..
(..and they carry the basket "to the land of Shinar to set it on a base".. an idol? as in a faith/belief/prophet,prophesying? Shinar of course was the land of Babylon.)
Is it the same, do you think, as the flying scroll that "goes out over the face of the whole earth" of the same chapter? (I'm inclined to think that..)
Quote from: sheila on February 09, 2019, 01:27:45 AM
HiMarie,I myself when I read that am inclined to think the same.I see captive Jerusalem[unrefined of her drossby Christ]as the woman
in the basket with lid of lead....Jezebel spirit Thyatyra and Laodacean church as wind in their wings/also being carried offof winds
ofdoctrines.the scroll of curses for robbers/thieves that turn the Fathers House into a denof thieves[like Balaam paid to pronounce curses
on Israel/men].Israel was supposed to be a blessing unto all nations..we are to BLESSandCURSE NOT MEN MADE IN GOD'SIMAGE...
their foundation is not CHRISTandHIS BLESSING GOOD NEWS AND PEACE UNTO ALL MEN
I willpray about this..I would like to have HIS mind/thoughts on it....
oh :doh: Verse 5 (Zechariah 5:5) the angel who talked with Zechariah said, speaking about the vision of the 3 women and a basket, "lift your eyes and see what this is that
goes forth" and in verse 3, speaking of the scroll he said it's a curse that "
goes out over the face of the whole Earth.. So the scroll, in the vision shown to Zechariah, that goes out over all the Earth,
is the vision of the three women.. one sitting in the basket, two coming with the wind in their wings with the basket to set it up on a base, in a house built for it. ..A basket with a lead lid..
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 09, 2019, 09:15:09 PM
David, Preterism was something I initially rejected because "obviously" it wasn't true so I wouldn't even let my mind go there...
In the same way that people who believe in hell won't let their mind even think of universal salvation because the Bible "obviously" and "plainly" states there is a hell.
But the passages about Jesus's return seem to involve lots of mental gymnastics and to me I just didn't understand it all. Why did he say people wouldn't taste death before he came? And other things that didn't add up. So, just like how hell didn't make sense to me, I just sort of put it on a shelf, so to speak, and focused on other aspects of my faith.
But one day recently I was reading a website by a UR believer and he had many Preterist articles that I read. It suddenly clicked in my mind and it made sense of so many passages that don't make sense otherwise.
You mentioned many of them already so I won't go into the "evidence" because it's up to everyone to decide for themselves, search it out (or not), or God to reveal things to people in his timing.
To me it aligns with how many didn't believe Jesus was the messiah because he didn't come, do, say, or act how they *expected* the messiah to act so they rejected him, in the same way his second coming was also not how people expected it to happen, but if you look at his own words, there are just too many passages that show that his return had to be within the first century, and had to happen in the way it did, because of the plain rendering of his words. It's funny, but to me it actually is the most literal interpretation of the passages, especially given Jewish prophetic and apocalyptic writing style.
I believe the spiritual to be more real than the material, but I also believe that Jesus's return was described both spiritually and materially and they both happened simultaneously.
I also believe the kingdom is happening simultaneously, spiritually and materially. That is why it is the "new heaven/new earth" (spiritual/material).
I believe we are all participating in leavening the whole lump, to slowly bring forth the kingdom.
I think that's true! :iagree: yet paradoxically :umnick: I also think it will all be worked out 'in the flesh', literally in the world like a drama played out during our own age since Jesus left, and two following this one called millennium and judgment..
Yet it is happening always.. in the world and also in the human heart and psyche.. a repeating pattern I guess, is how I think of it..
:gwink:
I get the "Jesus' first coming did not turn out as they expected" but as one person pointed out, the passages, especially OT ones, seem to actually describe the second coming than the first one.
Act 1:9 After saying this, Jesus was taken up while those who had gathered together were watching, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, two men in white robes stood right beside them.
Act 1:11 They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."
In terms of evidence, along with all the signs I think are there nowadays, especially recently(the allowing of newborn babies to be murdured should be on the top list. And if you notice, right before Jesus came, and Moses plagues finished, babies were being slaughtered, just as we see today.), there is an increasing number of dreams and visions given about His return. And that number is just goes up and up, especially now. But I cannot convince anyone that believes otherwise.
Someone pointed this out to me as well, if we look at Matthew 24, you know what Jesus starts out with?
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
And the Apocrypha, though unsure of its validity, is interesting to note this passage:
2 Esdras 9
1 He answered me: "Measure carefully within yourself, and when you see that a certain part of the signs that were predicted have passed, 2 then you will understand that the time has come in which the Most High will begin to visit the world that he made. 3 When the movement of places, tumult of peoples, plotting of nations, inconstancy of leaders, and confusion of princes appear in the world, 4 then you will understand that it was about these things that the Most High spoke from former days, from the beginning. 5 Just as with everything that has happened in the world, the beginning is known from the end,[a] and the end comes to be seen, 6 so also are the times of the Most High. The beginnings are manifest in prodigies and mighty works, and the end is evident in deeds and in signs.
A video on some signs to take note of:
https://youtu.be/TQlEJ7qRyGU
I'm no scholar, so I'm not equipped to go through all the verses. But I do feel after seeing and being aware of all the signs, God is leading me to believe in a literal second return of Jesus. I'm reminded of this verse:
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
:2c:decieved of men Esdras has many writings pertaining to our time.
Joel2;19 it will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear,as though he entered his house and rested his hand on a wall
only to have a snake bite him.
the serpent on the wall...and the writing on the wall[your reign has been weighed in the balance and found -[king of Babylon] wanting]
Men[e]men[e] tak EL[God]UR for him!
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 09, 2019, 09:15:09 PM....Preterism was something I initially rejected because "obviously" it wasn't true so I wouldn't even let my mind go there...
But the passages about Jesus's return seem to involve lots of mental gymnastics and to me I just didn't understand it all. Why did he say people wouldn't taste death before he came? And other things that didn't add up. So, just like how hell didn't make sense to me, I just sort of put it on a shelf, so to speak, and focused on other aspects of my faith.
But one day recently I was reading a website by a UR believer and he had many Preterist articles that I read. It suddenly clicked in my mind and it made sense of so many passages that don't make sense otherwise.
I encountered some of those "mental gymnastics" in an article attempting to debunk partial preterism.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 09, 2019, 11:26:55 PMIn terms of evidence, along with all the signs I think are there nowadays, especially recently(the allowing of newborn babies to be murdured should be on the top list. And if you notice, right before Jesus came, and Moses plagues finished, babies were being slaughtered, just as we see today.)
Infanticide was commonly done in the era in which Jesus was born. It's because of Christ and Christianity's spread that infanticide ceased to be common. With the decline of Christianity and its Judeo-Christian morality, infanticide is creeping back up in America.
Darwinism and atheism greatly damaged Christianity in Germany in the late 1800s and early 1900s, there were huge numbers of abortions in Weimar Republic Germany, and then there was infanticide, involuntary euthanasia, and mass killings in the Third Reich.
Do you think any Revelation 12 events have already occurred?
Revelation 12 (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 09, 2019, 11:26:55 PM
But I do feel after seeing and being aware of all the signs, God is leading me to believe in a literal second return of Jesus.
me too.. i do put a lot of stock in 70 ad etc. much happened then, some of complete fulfillment, others of partial fulfillment to be replayed/completed.
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Do you think Jesus did, or didn't, say that John would live to witness Jesus' return?
John 21 (KJV)
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee [Peter], When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
I think in part He was saying "it's not up to you what I do". Also, I believe He did return multiple times spiritually, which is also literal [in that it did really happen], revealing His glory.
Various times of His comings;
the transfiguration
70 AD
Pentecost
John's receipt of the complete vision of Christ's future return in the Revelation
But not yet this, which was future for Paul;
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:16–17).
Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit.
Were the Idumean-killed Ananus & Jesus/Joshua/Jeshua the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11?
The Two Witnesses
http://www.beyondrevelation.com/study/odd-and-ends/topics-from-revelation/the-two-witnesses/
Below, we will make a list of prophecies from the text, and their fulfillment in these two individuals.
....
As we can see from the above list, interpreting the "Two Witnesses" to be prophetic offices, first appearing in Zechariah and extending to the present time, of 24 criteria, we see that Ananus and Jesus (or, Joshua), the two high priests killed by the Idumeans, clearly fulfill 11 immediately. Understanding v4-6 as describing their role adds another 5 without difficulty. Of non-consequential attributes that bear a strong possibility of existing historically despite the lack of record in Josephus would be being clothed in sackcloth, exchange of gifts, and the length of time their bodies were in the street without burial, which would directly bring the number to roughly 19 of 24. This leaves only the miraculous resurrection and ascension into heaven while their enemies watched (v11-12, complete). All other criteria are fulfilled.
The Two Witnesses Killed by the Beast (Revelation 11:3-13)
https://adammaarschalk.com/tag/ananus-ben-ananus/
I would like to propose that the two witnesses were two first century high priests, Ananus ben Ananus and Jesus ben Gamaliel (also known as Joshua). According to Josephus, they led the peace movement in Jerusalem when the Zealots were determined to rebel and incite war with the Romans, hoping to gain full independence for Israel. As we will see, their roles, deaths, the aftermath of their deaths, and the timing of their deaths line up with a number of details John saw in Revelation 11. Here is a short summary of these two men.
https://adammaarschalk.com/2016/11/02/josephus-and-the-book-of-revelation-nine-case-studies/
In John Wesley's commentary on Matthew 24 (1755), he said, "Josephus's History of the Jewish War is the best commentary on this chapter..." I believe this is also true for the book of Revelation.
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 10, 2019, 04:12:28 AM
Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit.
How about bodily?
james c in a comment on https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU
Some Dandy: I had a Road to Damascus experience when I was 34. Next month I will turn 62. Although I was alone in my car back in 1991, I was not as alone as I thought. A hand came to rest on my left shoulder, & a voice whispered into my right ear. And the voice whispered to me "I will bear your burdens." A couple of days later, I finally wandered into a Catholic Church & told a priest about it, & that I had stopped in just to say "Thank You." He told me that I was the 10th Leper. And I have not been the same since.
Quote from: DavidFord on February 10, 2019, 05:08:42 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 10, 2019, 04:12:28 AM
Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit.
How about bodily?
james c in a comment on https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU
Some Dandy: I had a Road to Damascus experience when I was 34. Next month I will turn 62. Although I was alone in my car back in 1991, I was not as alone as I thought. A hand came to rest on my left shoulder, & a voice whispered into my right ear. And the voice whispered to me "I will bear your burdens." A couple of days later, I finally wandered into a Catholic Church & told a priest about it, & that I had stopped in just to say "Thank You." He told me that I was the 10th Leper. And I have not been the same since.
Yes!
Edit: I mean yes as in I agree with experiences such as this, but as Sheila said, I believe this is a spiritual body, not a material/natural body. I do believe we can see and touch the spiritual body just as the apostles did. I also believe Jesus can, did, does, and will come spiritually to individuals and to groups when and how he chooses.
:2c: David,I don't see that as bodily.....we all sojourn in Egypt[this world]and never return again in the flesh. and
we no longer know Jesus Christ as a man..but as a glorified son of God. Yet,that same spirit in Christ can and does dwell bodilyinus
Christ died ONCE........now the resurrection body. the earth gives it back in the same form it recievedit..so it may
be known that the dead live..but it can take any form after that.
I watched thevideo of the atheist.....Jer46;15 Why willyour warriors be laid low?they can not stand for the Lord will push them down
this scripture was calledto my attention..and I thought of the atheist words about feeling beat down.
...Heis always with us in spirit...until the end...when we are just like Him...it is always God in the spirit,inus..doing all the works
Micah 3;9-12
as far as the two witnesses killed..if perhaps they be a token..and a literal for that time..to restrain the lawless ones..andsuefor
peace...Iknownot...but I do know..the testimony of the Word of God and the Holy spirit has lay as dead in this world due to
man's[beast]lacking understanding...andyes the spirit of God [life] must enter these two[word of God/holy spirit]and
theymust stand[Michael stand up]and allpeople be delivered[yes,salvationof ALL men]and all must ascend into heaven......
this coincides with THE END...the end of all flesh has come
Sheila, I agree!
The resurrected body is a spiritual body:
35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being";[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
"Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"
:thumbsup: GIL....I do not deny the POWER of GOD to raise up all men in His image and likeness..incorrupt and immortal
.....nor that all the dead live unto HIM. :girlheart:
Quote from: marie glen on February 09, 2019, 09:52:18 PM
Quote from: Patinak on February 09, 2019, 06:50:07 AM
.....The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria..
P.S., Pat, your post seems to be saying one thing the first half and another the second.. No matter, both are true (I believe!) Preterist, has happened. And futurist, will happen. ("He who is, and was, and is to come.") And also current.. :gsmile:
Glenda,
Tell me what you see as a contradiction in the piece you quoted.
I don't see a contradiction in his article, but I would like to try to see how you are seeing it.
Pat
Re: resurrected spiritual body, I like and agree with this from Randy Alcorn;
Someone recently showed me an article from a reputable Christian magazine that stated we will not have physical bodies in the future heaven, based on an (incorrect) understanding of the reference in 1 Corinthians 15 to a "spiritual body"
When Paul uses the term "spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44), he is not talking about a body made of spirit, or an incorporeal body—there is no such thing. Body means corporeal: flesh and bones. The word spiritual here is an adjective describing body [incorruptible, immortal vs. our current earthly corruptible ones]...
:Peace2:
(Paul also said we don't yet know what we shall be [exactly what that will look/feel/be like?], but we will be as He is and see Him face to face.) :dsunny:
So you know I have to do this :laugh:
How do we see the topic of full pret/partial pret/futurism as connecting to UR? What are the ramifications, if any?
James,
I knew it was coming, but it was fun while it lasted!
Pat
:laugh:
:mblush:
I don't know if body always means flesh and bones in a material sense, I did a search and the word used for body is also the word used to describe the "body of Christ" in the sense of all believers being connected in Christ. It is also used when Jesus said the bread was his "body" and unless someone is Catholic they don't believe this to be literal flesh and bones. So i think we just don't know what it will be like, because we have only experienced life in this state of existence.
I think to connect this to UR, for me, it helps to explain the "big picture," but it's not something we should well on if it causes division.
I think it's peripheral, like all of the end times, second coming, apocalypse, do u celebrate Christmas, free will vs God's sovereignty etc...
So let's get back to our focus here! :)
ahum, staying off focus with my post :spank:...you threw out a bone about UR, maybe the next person will actually follow up on it! I think it's OK to chat about this stuff, as long as we don't get "lost" in it, too off track, contentious, and keep bringing it back toward UR application. :thumbsup:
here's what I think about our new spiritual body, and my main point would be to address the idea that we'll "just" be some invisible spirit in the future. i think some do believe that ...So maybe his outer layer wasn't "flesh" as we currently know it. I don't even know that He had "bones" as we know it. However, the disciples saw Jesus, touched Him, He walked and talked with them. So in my view, He wasn't invisible, a wisp of smoke, or "just" a spirit. However, He was able to "transport"/move in and out miraculously, etc., was incorruptible, immorrtal..so definitely different.
Still, I agree, we don't know all the exact details, just as Paul said and I've noted a couple of times. I have to say it again though..."Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."
As far as UR for me, and Christianity in general, I think it's important to maintain a greater hope that there's more to look forward to than this old world; that we haven't already attained, that "this is it"/it's already happened. But rather, Him being All in All is going to be a whole lot better than this! :dsunny:
Er, I meant let's get back to our focus here on Tentmaker of the victorious gospel.
I wasn't saying that YOUR post was off focus...
Yikes for your emoticon thingie.
And if you re read my original post about spiritual bodies I mentioned that the disciples were able to touch Jesus's body. I believe the spiritual to be more real than the material, meaning that now on this plane of existience we can't comprehend the spiritual existence yet but whatever it is it will be more real than this, not less real.
So I don't think we are in disagreement with anything, somehow the medium of type and internet has caused you to think this tho, and I apologize for the confusion.
Also, I don't think anyone, preterist or not, thinks this is as good as it gets!
In my understanding and what I have tried to convey, preterism believes we are in the period of time of leavening, where we are called out to bring forth the kingdom, gradually over time. We are in the point of this:
"The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."
The spirit being the Holy Spirit, the bride being His people/church. We are urging those around us to come and take of the free gift, and we will continue this work with and through Christ until:
"22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." c Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
I think you thought I was talking solely to you. My post was more general than that :)
I didn't think you were talking about me being off track, I was talking about my own post I was about to make being off-topic; and the spanking was for me. (I usually deserve it).
I probably should have used an "I" in a place or two and it would have been more clear. Because of that I think you misunderstood me. :laughing7:
I'll research it some more, but in reading in the past I've gotten the impression that some full/extreme preterists do see things as more "final" now, i.e., "this is it" (or maybe that all the "big events" have already happened and it just keeps getting better and better).
:Peace2:
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 10, 2019, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on February 10, 2019, 05:08:42 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 10, 2019, 04:12:28 AM
Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit.
How about bodily?
james c in a comment on https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU
Some Dandy: I had a Road to Damascus experience when I was 34. Next month I will turn 62. Although I was alone in my car back in 1991, I was not as alone as I thought. A hand came to rest on my left shoulder, & a voice whispered into my right ear. And the voice whispered to me "I will bear your burdens." A couple of days later, I finally wandered into a Catholic Church & told a priest about it, & that I had stopped in just to say "Thank You." He told me that I was the 10th Leper. And I have not been the same since.
Yes!
Edit: I mean yes as in I agree with experiences such as this, but as Sheila said, I believe this is a spiritual body, not a material/natural body. I do believe we can see and touch the spiritual body just as the apostles did. I also believe Jesus can, did, does, and will come spiritually to individuals and to groups when and how he chooses.
Is it a body that can: eat fish? eat honeycomb/honey? be poked by fingers exploring a wound in the side of the chest cavity?
I see preterism-partial-future..like this Rev 1;18 I am the living one..I was dead...and behold,I am alive forever and ever...
and the beast that was,is not..and yet will come forthupoutof the abyssRev 17;8...
there's alwayspast,present-partial-futurefullfillment of these things..til THE END when all in all :2c:
our faces will shine like the light of the sun....Moses face shone..and Jesus face/body,too.Youv'e seen the old paintings with
a light halo around their head..only it's much brighter. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on February 10, 2019, 09:14:51 PMHow do we see the topic of full pret/partial pret/futurism as connecting to UR? What are the ramifications, if any?
Mt 23:33 was talking about Gehenna, the valley outside Jerusalem-- not some place of constant conscious unending torture.
Mt 23:29, 33 (YLT) 'Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the tombs of the righteous, .... 'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Mt 23:29 through Mt 25:46 is a big unit of thought. Mt 25:31-46 can't be used to support the never-ending-torture view because the events of those verses already occurred as of the end of A.D. 70.
from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqqVwzMkiPc&lc=z22hcltr4qjvwdyy404t1aokgpuda1cj4gko1iw5ufbybk0h00410.1545692938155601
Lex Treme 1 year ago
Correct Donna and you make a very good point that many don't consider. Why was Adam not warned about an eternal hellfire, or Abraham, Moses, even the Apostle Paul ,who was appointed to the nations by the risen glorified Christ doesn't mention it once! People don't look at scripture in context.
This is a long comment but I hope it may be helpful. The original Hebrew/Greek words that were used all had specific meanings, however over time the original meanings strayed, mainly through traditions so now have taken on different meanings. Hell for example is not a Greek word, (hence can't even be found in many bible translations) it's actually used in the word HEL-MET which is a head COVERING, not a place of eternal torment. The four words often lumped together are, Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) grave/pit/unseen, then Tartarus (Greek) used for sinning angels, finally Gehenna (Greek) had the strongest link to fire because it was a literal place located just outside the walls of Jerusalem, in the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehhinnom), it was a rubbish dump, you can visit the area today, although obviously it looks very different now.
Matthew 25:31-46 is the passage many turn to for the doctrine of 'hell' or 'eternal torment', but sadly people rarely read the specific context of what is going on in Matthew 25:31-46? We find the use of the words follow a specific judgement, at a specific future time, involving a specific group.
I won't post all the verses here but below is a summary of Matthew 25:31-46, highlighting some key points that are often overlooked.
(1)The target audience is NATIONS
(2)They are GATHERED (not resurrected from the dead as in Revelation 20:12) so are living at the time.
(3)TWO 'GROUPS' are formed in the judgement - Sheep (Right hand) / Goats (Left hand).
(4)REASON For Judgement – The King's brethren Hungered, was Thirsty, a Stranger, Naked, Infirm or in Jail. Which of the nations responded to these circumstances? (So it's a humanitarian judgement)
(5)RESULT of the Judgement - The Sheep (nations) responded to the above circumstances, so WILL ENJOY AGE-ABIDING/DURING LIFE in the allotment of the kingdom (notice NOT rule and reign in it), but the Goat (nations) did not respond to the above circumstances, so will go away to AGE-ABIDING/DURING CORRECTION/PUNISHMENT/CHASTENING.
(BOTH the Sheep and the Goat nations actually acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the judgement).
Verse 46 reveals (addressing the goat nations below)
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (KJV)
"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life." (REB)
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (YLT)
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)
We find the judgement is based on who helped the King's brethren (Israel) I believe during the difficult tribulation period to come. Verse 46 reveals 'the goat nations' who don't help won't get entrance into the Kingdom, but will rather miss out. Rotherham emphasized bible is probably the clearest in it's choice of words, revealing no one goes away to eternal torment, but much rather to a specific time of age-abiding/during correction, to basically be set right.
The Book of Revelation does reveal that at a future time some will enter "the second death" Rev 2:11 , 20:6, 20:14, 21:8, but this is dealing with the Great White Throne Judgement, which is a different judgement to the one in Matthew 25, however 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us to a time beyond the Great White Throne Judgement, therefore we read that ultimately death will be abolished, i.e. hold no one, 1 Cor 15:26 and we find God's ultimate purpose is to be "ALL in all" 1 Cor 15:28! People think if God is going to save all, that means He does away with His Judgement's, but far from it, God is wise, His Judgement's do not work against His purpose, but much rather they are used as a MEANS for Him to accomplish a glorious end, i.e. to ultimately be "All in all" 1 Cor 15:28.
The doctrine of eternal torment takes sin THE LEAST seriously, as this doctrine demotes God to a little g "god" who can't ever resolve the problem and so has to dump it somewhere for all eternity. To sin means to miss/fall short of the mark, therefore if God intended to save all, which even most eternal torment believers will agree He did, but is now unable to, they are saying God is missing/falling short of His mark and therefore sinning! This is a far more serious attack on God's character than many realize.
The doctrine of Annihilation is somewhat more humane, BUT it sadly denies both God and His Christ the glory, something many have sadly lost sight of.
I look forward with great expectation to a future time when all will not only come into a realization of the truth, but for when "in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing ... and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father." Phil 2:10-11 (CLV), because we are told this will be FOR THE GLORY OF God! All believers should truly long for this, otherwise they should be the most miserable of believers, in holding to a doctrine where the God they worship won't ultimately get His rightful glory.
Thankfully all will come to realize the following truths because God is indeed ALMIGHTY and will accomplish:
Reconciliation of all (Col. 1:20)
Justification of all (Rom. 5:18)
Vivification of all (1 Cor. 15:22-24)
Subjection of all (1 Cor. 15:28)
Salvation of all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
Merciful To All (Rom. 11:32)
God All in all (1 Cor. 15:28)
In His grace.
:thumbsup: David and sheila.
adapted from biblestudytools.com
Mild/partial and/or moderate preterism holds that most of the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in either the fall of Jerusalem (A.D. 70) or the fall of the Roman Empire (A.D. 476), but the Second Coming of Christ and resurrection of believers is yet future. This form of preterism.. is the most frequent view encountered in our day.
Full or extreme preterism holds that all the prophecies of Revelation are already fulfilled, that we are currently living spiritually in the "new heavens and new earth" and denies a future bodily return of Jesus.....believe that "the second coming MUST HAVE already occurred, since it was one of the things predicted in the O.T. which had to be fulfilled by the time Jerusalem was destroyed" . . . This means there will never be a future second coming, for it already occurred in A. D. 70. Further, there will be no bodily resurrection of believers.. Full preterists say . . . we are now living in what we would call the eternal state or the new heavens and new earth of Revelation Rev. 21:1+-Rev. 22:1+.
Quote from: DavidFord on February 11, 2019, 05:27:14 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 10, 2019, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on February 10, 2019, 05:08:42 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 10, 2019, 04:12:28 AM
Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit.
How about bodily?
james c in a comment on https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU
Some Dandy: I had a Road to Damascus experience when I was 34. Next month I will turn 62. Although I was alone in my car back in 1991, I was not as alone as I thought. A hand came to rest on my left shoulder, & a voice whispered into my right ear. And the voice whispered to me "I will bear your burdens." A couple of days later, I finally wandered into a Catholic Church & told a priest about it, & that I had stopped in just to say "Thank You." He told me that I was the 10th Leper. And I have not been the same since.
Yes!
Edit: I mean yes as in I agree with experiences such as this, but as Sheila said, I believe this is a spiritual body, not a material/natural body. I do believe we can see and touch the spiritual body just as the apostles did. I also believe Jesus can, did, does, and will come spiritually to individuals and to groups when and how he chooses.
Is it a body that can: eat fish? eat honeycomb/honey? be poked by fingers exploring a wound in the side of the chest cavity?
Sure
I still don't think it's the same substance as our current bodies, which are made of carbon and whatever.
I have sure enjoyed just listening , what everyone is sharing .
I also am one whom believes , that Gods Word is perpetual and it comes in times and seasons and in every generation to some degree .occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.
The unending or never ending or changing Word of God will be summed up as TRUTH in the end .
And the spiritual bodies are of the nature of God ,a holy thing , that is LIFE in and of itself and has never known death ever .
Even Jesus come , had a mortal body prepared for Him , to be sent as a baby , born of woman under the law and ministration of death Gal 4;4 3So also, when we were children, we were enslaved under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.... and BE the daily sacrifice , the daily bread of heaven ,,,, to fulfill the sacrifice in the fulness of times , The phrase is derived from a passage in Ephesians 1:10 which reads: "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him."
for me the mortal bodies are dying and decaying the moment of conception . as Gods Word being true in the day we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we shall surly die ...
I have come to realize that , when we read Gods Word , it causes great fear in the carnal mind , to be carnally minded is death and when we see the scriptures that invoke fear in us , it is the beginning of Wisdom ..
But I see even in the scriptures we are to choose the good in them also , because they judge us all , This word judges us all
when making the tree good or the good news of the gospel , the tree of Life is found in Jesus Christ and His rewards are with Him .
Now for me , I see the eating fish with honeycomb and poking the holes where the wounds were made are literal to those whom read it as literal and making it a miracle of sorts , as unbelievable , like walking on water is , not possible with man , but with God all things are possible in that thinking of faith
but to the ones whom can grasp metaphorical meanings and symbolism in the bible like a code of hidden manna , like angels food , spiritual in nature , the scriptures bring a joy that surpasses the literal interpretations , that have meanings for sure , but lack the very substance of faith in hope and love in my own opinion , because it is tasting the things of God in the here and now and to me thay are the true treasures that no man can steal or take from you , those things that God has given you , that peace and joy that keeps you enduring to the end
the fish are spiritual in meaning as a hope , like fishers of men , you hope, they are made good by the hope of glory to God and fulfilling the WORD OF GOD
we read all the fish in the sea died as a dead man The second poured out his bowl into the sea. It turned to blood like that of a dead person, and all life in the sea died., there hope was destroyed in my opinion ..
When Jesus sent Peter to get a coin out of the fishes mouth to pay the temple tax ,Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."
Here is what helped me to understand some of the hidden meanings , it was Jesus was giving everyone whom wanted to work for a penny a days wage , and a day is a meaning of itself , and many come on the last hour and received the same wage and many were upset as they bore the heat of the day , I see a day and our day or time to work in the Lord and given life by Him , the things was Jesus said ,why do you imply I am evil for giving everyone the same wage ,
Can I DO WHAT I WANT with my own things !
Everyone knows the wages of sin is death , but the work in Gods vineyard is a days wage and Life /purpose in meaning to me ...
the honeycomb is the sweetness in our mouths to share the gospel of the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ
and the wounds are the suffering for the sake of GODS Kingdom and fulfilling Gods Word as the continual daily sacrifice as well as the prize , that is to be just LIKE JESUS , not above but like Him in this world and be made known in the heavens as a faithful servant , none is above His master .
just a few thoughts sparked by this thread and the sharing their thoughts also .
Quote from: jabcat on February 11, 2019, 06:17:28 AM
:thumbsup: David and sheila.
adapted from biblestudytools.com
Mild/partial and/or moderate preterism holds that most of the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in either the fall of Jerusalem (A.D. 70) or the fall of the Roman Empire (A.D. 476), but the Second Coming of Christ and resurrection of believers is yet future. This form of preterism.. is the most frequent view encountered in our day.
Full or extreme preterism holds that all the prophecies of Revelation are already fulfilled, that we are currently living spiritually in the "new heavens and new earth" and denies a future bodily return of Jesus.....believe that "the second coming MUST HAVE already occurred, since it was one of the things predicted in the O.T. which had to be fulfilled by the time Jerusalem was destroyed" . . . This means there will never be a future second coming, for it already occurred in A. D. 70. Further, there will be no bodily resurrection of believers.. Full preterists say . . . we are now living in what we would call the eternal state or the new heavens and new earth of Revelation Rev. 21:1+-Rev. 22:1+.
I think that perfectly describes Matthew 24..
I think also the idea of the book of revelation as full futurist is way off.. Especially future from now.. the way it's packed into a box..
Quote from: marie glen on February 11, 2019, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 11, 2019, 06:17:28 AM
:thumbsup: David and sheila.
adapted from biblestudytools.com
Mild/partial and/or moderate preterism holds that most of the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in either the fall of Jerusalem (A.D. 70) or the fall of the Roman Empire (A.D. 476), but the Second Coming of Christ and resurrection of believers is yet future. This form of preterism.. is the most frequent view encountered in our day.
Full or extreme preterism holds that all the prophecies of Revelation are already fulfilled, that we are currently living spiritually in the "new heavens and new earth" and denies a future bodily return of Jesus.....believe that "the second coming MUST HAVE already occurred, since it was one of the things predicted in the O.T. which had to be fulfilled by the time Jerusalem was destroyed" . . . This means there will never be a future second coming, for it already occurred in A. D. 70. Further, there will be no bodily resurrection of believers.. Full preterists say . . . we are now living in what we would call the eternal state or the new heavens and new earth of Revelation Rev. 21:1+-Rev. 22:1+.
I think that perfectly describes Matthew 24..
I think also the idea of the book of revelation as full futurist is way off.. Especially future from now.. the way it's packed into a box..
"the idea of the book of revelation as full futurist is way off" Especially when Revelation's depiction of the devil's being cast out of heaven, and of Jesus' birth, clearly already occurred. Much of Revelation-- but not all-- has occurred in our material realm of existence.
Also, the events Jesus prophesied about in Mt 24 already occurred.
_The End of An Era: Rediscovering A Hidden History_ (2016) by Ana Mendez Ferrell, 171pp., on 63
https://www.amazon.com/End-Era-Rediscovering-Hidden-History/dp/1933163828/
When I read these 7 books [_The Wars of the Jews_ by Flavius Josephus], I was perplexed at seeing the accuracy of the words Jesus used to prophesy the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the era. Everything was vividly narrated by Josephus.
God made a covenant with Israel, but people couldn't fulfill their end of the arrangement and kept wandering away from God. God introduced a New Covenant, thereby making [Heb 8:13]"the first old," about which the author of Hebrews observed, "that which is outdated and old is near destruction." In the New Covenant, God does the hard work (which people failed miserably at) of changing peoples' hearts to be godly. With the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in A.D. 70, priests ceased offering old covenant sacrifices, and the outdated old covenant was definitively destroyed. Jesus returned to earth around that time, and is now all people's High Priest-- not just Israel's. Being [Heb 2:17]"a compassionate and trustworthy High Priest," Jesus made [Heb 2:17]"atonement for the sins of the people." Jesus has [Heb 2:9]"tasted death in the place of every person."
Heb 8 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/hebrews/8.htm
4 And if he were on Earth, he would not be a Priest, because there have been Priests who have been offering gifts according to what is in The Law,
5 Those who serve the form and the shadow of these things that are in Heaven, as it was said to Moses when he made The Tabernacle, "See and do everything by the image that appeared to you on the mountain."
6 Now Yeshua The Messiah has received the Ministry which is better than that, as The Covenant of which he is made The Mediator is better, and it is given with better promises than that.
7 For if the first one had been without fault, then there would have been no place for this second one.
8 For he found fault with them, and he said, "Behold, the days are coming, says THE LORD JEHOVAH [Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH], and I will perfect a New Covenant for the family of the house of Israel and for the family of the house of Judah."
9 "Not like that Covenant that I gave to their fathers in the day when I took their hands and brought them from the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my Covenant; I also rejected them, says THE LORD JEHOVAH."[Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH]
10 "But this is The Covenant that I shall give to the family of the house of Israel:
After those days, says THE LORD JEHOVAH [Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH],
I shall put my law in their minds
and upon their hearts I shall write it,
and I shall be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people."
11 "And a man will not teach a citizen of his city, neither his brother, and say,
'Know THE LORD JEHOVAH',[Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH]
because they shall all know me,
from their little ones and unto their Elders."
12 "And I shall purge them of their evils,
and I shall not remember their sins again."
13 *In that he said, "New", he has made the first old, and that which is outdated and old is near destruction.*
Hebrews 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
5 For it was not to Angels that he subjected the future world, about which we are speaking;
6 But as The Scripture testifies and says,
"What is a man, that you remember him,
and the son of man that you care for him?"
7 "You have brought him a little lower than The Angels.
You have placed glory and honor on his head
and you have authorized him over the works of your hands."
8 "You have subjected all things under his feet."
But by this, that He subjected everything to him, it does not leave anything which is not subjected; but now, we do not yet see that everything is subjected to him.
9 But we see that he is Yeshua, who became a little lower than the Angels for the suffering of his death, and glory and honor are placed upon his head, for God himself, by his grace, tasted death in the place of every person.
10 For it was fitting for him by whom are all things and for whom are all things, and bringing many children into the glory, that The Prince of their life would perfect himself by his suffering.
11 For he who makes holy and they who are made holy are all of one; therefore, he is not ashamed to call them his brothers,
12 When he said, "I shall announce your name to my brethren and within the church I shall glorify you."
13 And again, "I will trust in him", and again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given me."
14 For because the children shared together in flesh and blood, he also shared in these things in the same form, so that by his death he would destroy the one who had held the authority of death, who is Satan,
15 And he would free those who, by the fear of death, all their lives were subjected to bondage.
16 For death was not authorized over the Angels,
but death was authorized over the seed of Abraham.
17 Because of this, it was right that he would become like his brethren in all things, that he would be a compassionate and trustworthy High Priest in what is God's, and would make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 For in this, because he has suffered and was tempted, he can help those who are tempted.
Amen! He is the High Priest! Literal and spiritual. And He is "forever preeminent" Colossians 1:18. And one day He will hand the kingdom over to the Father, having subdued all things! So the Father will be all in all! (1 Cor. 15:22-->28)
The all in all 'event' (?) = Rev.21:1-5?
Most of the book of Revelation was fulfilled by the end of A.D. 70. There's a nice chart of judgments of the seals, trumpets, and bowls in Revelation correlated with the judgments prophesied to come on Israel in the last days, on pages 157-8 of
_How The End Times Ended In AD 70: An Optimistic View of The Last Days_ (2018)
https://www.amazon.com/How-End-Times-Ended-Optimistic/dp/1722662794/
With such a claim should be included, imo.. or I believe.. etc.. :gsmile:
I can see many things of the Book of Revelation big as you please all around us..
And I think there is still more belief that revelation was written close to the end of the century, 90 to 95 a.d. than so much earlier.
And it's called "Consummation of the ages".. "hour of trial to try all upon Earth.."
I've seen a lot of charts.. Biggest thing missed is it's not strictly in order.. has a couple of meanwhiles.. Some inserts.. And at least 2 locks.
https://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com/
BOOK OF REVELATION ~ IN PICTURES -
https://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com/2016/10/book-of-revelation-in-pictures-lesson.html
Where In Bible Prophecy ~ Are We Now?! - right column, home page
REVELATION IN POEM / 8 Revelation Riddles In The Middle Of The Night -
https://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com/p/eight-revelation-riddles-in-middle-of.html
But the main point for this UR forum, to me, anyway, is how it's the church of the Philadelphians (Greek, of brotherly love) that the Lord said He would keep safe from the hour of trial which is going to test all upon earth.. I know many make that an inner only thing.. (there's a fondness, I think, for putting Revelation in a box.. and we've devised a few of them..)
And whatever plays out.. the main thing is "God is the savior of all".. No matter what man can devise to do to himself. :laughing7:
God wins. And He wins all. :cloud9: :Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on February 18, 2019, 06:07:53 AM
With such a claim should be included, imo.. or I believe.. etc.. :gsmile:
I can see many things of the Book of Revelation big as you please all around us..
And I think there is still more belief that revelation was written close to the end of the century, 90 to 95 a.d. than so much earlier.
But the main point for this UR forum, to me, anyway, is how it's the church of the Philadelphians (Greek, of brotherly love) that the Lord said He would keep safe from the hour of trial which is going to test all upon earth..
And whatever plays out.. the main thing is "God is the savior of all".. No matter what man can devise to do to himself. :laughing7:
:thumbsup: marie
Bamboozled Believers, copyright 2015 by Michael Biehler was one of the first books I read in regards to fulfilled prophecy. I think his information is right on, however he seems to hold a grudge against what he calls "futurists". At the writing of his book, he was not a U.R. believer. Maybe he has seen The Light since then.
I think if we continue to read the scriptures it will all be cleared up..
Without the Book of Revelation, I think Obadiah verse 15 sums it up.. 15 For near [is] the day of Jehovah, on all the nations, As thou hast done, it is done to thee, Thy deed doth turn back on thine own head. Which I think refers to modern nations as well as those in the past.
Mostly I think of the bible as one story, from beginning to end, alpha to omega, a to z.. which I tend to think of from Genesis to Revelation/consummation.. I could be wrong of course. In which case, continuing to read God's Word should clear things up quite tidily. :gsmile: But i definitely do NOT think Revelation, is 100% future!
Quote from: Patinak on February 18, 2019, 10:48:21 AM
Bamboozled Believers, copyright 2015 by Michael Biehler was one of the first books I read in regards to fulfilled prophecy. I think his information is right on, however he seems to hold a grudge against what he calls "futurists". At the writing of his book, he was not a U.R. believer. Maybe he has seen The Light since then.
I downloaded this book a few weeks ago, and am partly through it.
It's a good read, and he notes that "aion" is an "age" but is often mistranslated, so that can be the jumping off point to UR if he is open to it.
I think that's what this life is all about, being open to God and receiving teaching/love/grace from God and not man. We all say this is true, but to practice it is very difficult, for myself included.
"If christian means a follower of Christ, then I'm a christian"
Sounds good to me.
"I hope to be saved when Armageddon comes"
Armageddon has already come. Har = mountain. Megiddown = Megiddo. Har-Megiddon = Mountain of Megiddo. However, Megiddo isn't a mountain but rather a plain:
Zechariah 12 (NRSV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+12&version=NRSV
10 And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
Revelation 1 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=KJV
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
"Jerusalem sat essentially on one mountain, Mt. Zion to be specific. If Megiddo represented a place of great mourning and a day of great mourning was coming upon Jerusalem soon in AD 70, then it makes sense that Jerusalem or Mt. Zion would be called Mountain of Megiddo or Armageddon." - page 148 of
_How the End Times Ended in AD 70: An Optimistic View of The Last Days_
https://www.amazon.com/HOW-END-TIMES-ENDED-Optimistic-ebook/dp/B07FFJ3KMW/
Most if not all of the book of Revelation has already occurred. The prophet Jesus returned by the end of A.D. 70.
Some that Saw Jesus Die Witnessed Jesus' Return in Power and Glory
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/jesus-returned-in-power-and-glory/
imo ...
horses of the apocalypse - past - but still their rides continue, as does the next two seals, tho seal 6 is currently in pause mode.. 7:1(The seals are described as their 1st and last, obscuring the vision. (4th seal includes mass graves, past/present/future)
definetly the phase of the big and littler beasts of rev. 13 were past, in the roman empire and rebirth, etc. But i believe another form is present, and will receive breath/life/authority when the office pinpointed by 13:13 climbs aboard..
the global harlot in a seductive guise upon 7 continents, also present as empire and system based on gold which the last ten divisions/seats of the big beast/governing body of the last hour will finally manage to consume away and also raze by fire.. mostly future
13:13 event - past
The 2 harvests of rev 14 (tares to battle in Armageddon) and wheat into His barn "lest no flesh survive", Mt.24 - "those that are His at His coming, 1 Cor.15:23 - future
White Throne Judgment/Discernment(?) and Review of all History? - future
raising the dead in Christ at the last day - we shall not precede them - future
raising the not yet saved dead 1000 years later, the resurrection to the judgment - future
The all in all event / new heavens, new earth - 1 Cor.15:28, Rev.21:1-5, and 2 Peter 3:12,13 - future
Basically, I think 1 Corinthians 15:22-->28 shows past and future perfectly:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: 1Christ the firstfruits, afterward 2those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then 3comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then 3the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.Rev.21:1-5
:Peace2:
No followers of Jesus died in the destruction of Jerusalem, because they heeded the warnings issued by Jesus, and by John's Revelation. As he'd prophesied, Jesus returned within the lifetime of some of those who'd been involved in his killing. God has always existed, and will always exist, and hence, one can say that God was, is, and will be.
Revelation was originally written in not Greek, but rather Aramaic. What are some verses below you're puzzled about?
Revelation 1 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/1.htm
1 The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him,
to show his Servants *what had been given to soon occur,*
and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan,
2 Who witnessed the word of God and the testimony of Yeshua The Messiah - everything whatever he saw.
3 *Blessed is the one who reads and those who* hear the words of this prophecy
and *keep those things that are written* in it, *for the time is near.*
4 Yohannan to the seven assemblies that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from The One Who is, and was, and is coming,
and from The Seven Spirits which are before his throne,
5 And from Yeshua The Messiah, the Trustworthy Witness,
the Firstborn of the dead and The Ruler of the Kings of The Earth-
him who loves us and has loosed us from our sins by his blood.
6 And he has made us The Priestly Kingdom to God and his Father;
to him be glory and Empire to the eternity of eternities. Amen.
7 Behold, *he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him,*
and all the families of The Earth shall mourn for him; yes and amen!
8 I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God,
he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty.
Some that Saw Jesus Die Witnessed Jesus' Return in Power and Glory
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/jesus-returned-in-power-and-glory/
Please remember to post "as I understand, in my opinion (IMO), as I see it, I believe, etc." - if not expressly stated, then obviously in that spirit/attitude.
Who has the greater number of successful prophecies to his credit: you, or Yeshua the Meshikha? Among the *ed material below, do you see any successful prophecies by Yeshua? (Re: Mt 24:6, there was at least one 'rumor of war' so powerful that people neglected to plant their crops-- and it turned out to be a mere rumor, because the rumored coming war didn't happen.)
Luke 19 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+19&version=KJV
41 And when he was come near, he beheld *the city,* and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For *the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,*
44 *And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;* because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luke 21 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+21&version=KJV
20 And *when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.*
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For *these be the days of vengeance,* that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But *woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.*
24 And *they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,* until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And *there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;*
26 *Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.*
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, *This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.*
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 23 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+23&version=KJV
26 And as they led him [Jesus] away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But *Jesus* turning unto them *said, Daughters of Jerusalem,* weep not for me, but *weep for yourselves, and for your children.*
29 For, behold, *the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.*
30 Then shall *they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.*
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
Matthew 24 (KJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+24&version=KJV
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him *the buildings of the temple.*
2 And *Jesus said* unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, *There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.*
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, *the disciples came* unto him privately, *saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?* and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And *Jesus answered* and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For *many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.*
6 And *ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:* see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and *there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes,* in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 *Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:* and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see *the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,* (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And *woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!*
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For *then shall be great tribulation,* such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For *there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;* insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 *Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:*
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, *when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.*
34 Verily I say unto you, *This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.*
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
hat tip:
George Peter Holford's _The Destruction of Jerusalem_ (1805, 1814, 1858) http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1805_holford_proof.html
https://www.amazon.com/Destruction-Jerusalem-Absolute-Irresistible-Christianity/dp/0967831725/
PDF http://vladspost.com/pdf/Jews/Destruction%2520of%2520Jerusalem.pdf
I've been doing some reading, and in my opinion, everything discussed in the book of Revelation has occurred.
https://www.equip.org/article/who-is-the-antichrist/
Finally, Nero is rightly identified as the Beast of Revelation––the archetypal Antichrist––because of the unique and horrible quality of the "great tribulation" he ignited.
Quote from: DavidFord on April 19, 2019, 06:10:48 AM
I've been doing some reading, and in my opinion, everything discussed in the book of Revelation has occurred.
I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL ,
meaning it is a constant force that frequently applies in everyone's lives over and over again , just my thoughts when it comes to the revelation of JESUS CHRIST .......... as the learning examples though out history and even in our lives today and to come .
per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(o͞o)əl/
adjective
1.
never ending or changing.
"deep caves in perpetual darkness"
synonyms: everlasting, never-ending, eternal, permanent, unending, endless, without end, lasting, long-lasting, constant, abiding, enduring, perennial, timeless, ageless, deathless, undying, immortal; More
2.
occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.
"their perpetual money worries"
synonyms: interminable, incessant, ceaseless, endless, without respite, relentless, unrelenting, persistent, frequent, continual, continuous, nonstop, never-ending, recurrent
, repeated, unremitting, sustained, round-the-clock, always-on, habitual, chronic, unabating; informaleternal
Quote from: rosered on April 19, 2019, 04:08:06 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on April 19, 2019, 06:10:48 AM
I've been doing some reading, and in my opinion, everything discussed in the book of Revelation has occurred.
I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL ,
meaning it is a constant force that frequently applies in everyone's lives over and over again , just my thoughts when it comes to the revelation of JESUS CHRIST .......... as the learning examples though out history and even in our lives today and to come .
I whole-heartedly agree Rose
I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL ,
meaning it is a constant force that frequently applies in everyone's lives over and over again[/quote]
Makes sense. Do you agree with me that particular events in history happened just once?
Quote from: DavidFord on April 19, 2019, 06:24:04 PM
I believe the WORD OF GOD IS PERPETUAL ,
meaning it is a constant force that frequently applies in everyone's lives over and over again
Makes sense. Do you agree with me that particular events in history happened just once?
[/quote]
Amen Jugg ..
Hi David , I would say what has been recorded as yes ......
But as the bible states many things have not been recorded
John 21 24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down.
And we know that his testimony is true.
25There are many more things that Jesus did.
If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.
All things are possible with GOD I believe all our lives matter to God and are living letters as well as dead letters , depending on the course taken .
Everything done is according to our faith in God , to me brother ..
Do you agree with me that this already occurred?:
Revelation 12 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=KJV
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Yes!!! David , I sure do , I believe it happened at the cross in my opinion .
Jesus ushered in the new covenant [ mercy & grace , by forgiveness of sin covering , not holding mankind's sins against them ] , I believe it was'' the open show '' of somthing that was being done long , long ago , but hidden from mankind's sight .
Jesus Christ, that was and IS and will be has always been the resurrection and the Life in every man .
Satan's power over death was always under the law and ministration of death ... JESUS meant it when HE SAID!! I COME openly to destroy the works of the devil and his BIG EVIL LIE over hades & death , so we can experience a more abundant life now in the Spirit of Life if by faith if we believe in Jesus works and the continuing works of the HOLY SPIRIT of Truth .
Mankind was never meant to spend an eternity in a mortal and corruptive state , GOD even in His blessed mercy shortened the days from 1000 years to 70 years more or less in being in the corruptible image and estate .
the body of MOSES or body of death and all held in that estate was freed at the cross [spirits in prison ] if one can believe in those works of GOD ...
The Estates, representative bodies of the estates of the realm.[ Moses body of death ] realm answered in Jude in my own opinion of what was also shared by John the revelator also in Rev 12 as the binding and loosing of what is on earth as it is in heaven witnesses !
Paul could not speak openly of the mercy seat at that time [ Hebrews 9 ] but touches on it in several places , especially in Romans when He said God has'' bound up '' all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all ....
Standing in those things are only a few , and in many things yet to be revealed to us in Our Lord Jesus Christ ...
my holy /pure thoughts in the power of GOD brother .......... I for one believe GODS promises without compromise .
God bless you David in all your efforts in pursuing the truth and rest in Him ...
Quote from: DavidFord on April 25, 2019, 02:00:06 AM
Do you agree with me that this already occurred?:
Revelation 12 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=KJV
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
yes, because verses 13 and 14 have occurred.. I think this is a fascinating chapter but most misread not knowing its an insert.. the dragon was very angry - didn't get to devour the Son of man / manchild when He was born.. And the Son of man is now instead at the right hand of God.. forever firstborn of all creation.
And as sister Rose said, the victory was won and the adversary&co. were no longer allowed access to heaven..
So wow.. that old dragon, called adversary, devil and serpent was very much enraged. The faith, represented by "the woman" -- "a great sign.. a virgin conceives -- the faith had fled at 70a.d. (as we can see, the faith spread out further.. toward Rome and beyond). And now the dragon again pursues her, and "persecutes" / inquisitions the faith, but it's given the two wings of an eagle to fly to a new place.. hello??! Are you kidding me? that this remains unseen in the body of Christ! Where are the eyes?
:doh: :laughing7: So sorry.. I need to read the rest of sister Rose's post.. who's been studying Revelation, maybe she sees it too..
...given the two wings of an eagle to fly / sail to a new place.. 1620, kept free from the face of the dragon for a duration of 3.5 ...1620+350=1970 ---> the serpent guise of the dragon vomited a flood after the woman, the faith, in an effort to wash the faith from off the Earth. :hiya: But the Earth will swallow the flood
drought coming. Then the dragon turns his attention (back) to the faith's other children, "to make war", who have the commandments of God. And - by then - according to Mt.23:39! imo - have the testimony of Jesus. ----> And the nations (the tares of) are gathered to Armageddon (Rev.16:14,15,16) ....go to chapter 14? :doh: The scenes of Rev. are not strictly in order..? some are even meanwhiles..?
:Peace2: :girlheart:
Quote from: rosered on April 25, 2019, 12:10:12 PM
Yes!!! David , I sure do , I believe it happened at the cross in my opinion .
Jesus ushered in the new covenant [ mercy & grace , by forgiveness of sin covering , not holding mankind's sins against them ] , I believe it was" the open show " of somthing that was being done long , long ago , but hidden from mankind's sight .
:iagree: ..and I think it is the first horseman of the apocalypse.. the gospel rides forth into the age of our Lord a.d... riding forth conquering and having conquered.. on a white horse like chapter 19. - making an open show of His victory march over powers and principalities.. and death (to be completely vanquished in its time). The horsemen and seals continue their rides / progression to the 'end'.
Quote
Jesus Christ, that was and IS and will be has always been the resurrection and the Life in every man .
:banana: amen!
Quote
Satan's power over death was always under the law and ministration of death ... JESUS meant it when HE SAID!! I COME openly to destroy the works of the devil and his BIG EVIL LIE over hades & death , so we can experience a more abundant life now in the Spirit of Life if by faith if we believe in Jesus works and the continuing works of the HOLY SPIRIT of Truth .
Amen, "missing the mark" is a disease and Jesus is the cure.
Quote
Mankind was never meant to spend an eternity in a mortal and corruptive state , GOD even in His blessed mercy shortened the days from 1000 years to 70 years more or less in being in the corruptible image and estate .
Amen.. Paul talked about the administration of the ages.. The Father`s program.. Jesus is the prototype! I think our Father is very organized.
Quote
...
God has" bound up " all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all"
....
Amen! "All" are learning (digesting the understanding of( good from evil, which I believe is Life, from death (nonlife / lacking life) and He is writing this full understanding upon every heart and mind "in heaven and earth" - how else to have an enduring perfection (paradise?) and still be able to endow thinking and reasoning ability to your created beings, your children? Beloved children.. :cloud9: "Love will rule" in every heart and psyche, thus in all creation.. :dsunny: "The bear will graze with the cow".. and lie down together in green pastures.."and the lion will eat straw like the ox" (Is.11:7)
He leadeth "all" beside still waters.. and our cups will forever overflow.. He anoints our head with oil and spreads a table before us even in the presence of our enemies and through the valley, of the shadow.. of death.. Where the rays of the bright sun shine through the breaking clouds and fills the world with a colorful rainbow that shall never fade..
Why? shall it now be able to never fade? Amen.. He iS life.. His works can only be Perfect.
...To me, to sleep in death is not annihilation.. all perishing.. also ruin or destruction, is temporary.. But there are two fruits maturing on the planet. We can know, learn, what something is, by its fruit. War.. death.. all horrible.. horrible fruit.. But praise Yah! the last enemy vanquished / done away with, is death. :iagree: it shall be no more. :banana:
Quote from: rosered on April 25, 2019, 12:10:12 PMGod bless you David in all your efforts in pursuing the truth and rest in Him
Thanks. Be blessed.
someone: "Once the Romans destroyed the Second Temple of Jerusalem, they stole the Torah scrolls.... Their typological attempt to undo Judaism began with the book of Matthew"
Do you think Rev 11:1-2 was written before, or after, the temple's destruction?
Revelation 11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/11.htm
1 And a reed was given to me like a rod and the Angel was standing and said, "Rise and measure the Temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it," 2 "And the inner court of the Temple leave out and do not measure it, because that is given to the Gentiles, and they will trample The Holy City forty two months. 3 "And I shall grant my two witnesses to prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days while wearing sackcloth."
I believe it's Luke 21:24 (?) which says Jerusalem will/would be trampled until the times of the gentiles are complete..
I can't think that was only until 70 a.d.?
Is it a claim the gospel account/testimony of Matthew is spurious? Matthew's focus, of the four gospels is the most Judean focused.. Or so it seems to me..
P.S. / edit, I do believe Rev. is not wholly 'future'.. Some being past.. The book spanning from the Lord's being caught up to God's throne / "the only one who has ascended.." and the gospel's going forth.. to "the 'end' when the Son "hands the Kingdom over to the Father, having subdued ALL things.. that God may be all in all".. (1 Cor.15:22-28)
QuoteSo wow.. that old dragon, called adversary, devil and serpent was very much enraged. The faith, represented by "the woman" -- "a great sign.. a virgin conceives -- the faith had fled at 70a.d. (as we can see, the faith spread out further.. toward Rome and beyond). And now the dragon again pursues her, and "persecutes" / inquisitions the faith, but it's given the two wings of an eagle to fly to a new place.. hello??! Are you kidding me? that this remains unseen in the body of Christ! Where are the eyes?
:doh: :laughing7: So sorry.. I need to read the rest of sister Rose's post.. who's been studying Revelation, maybe she sees it too..
...given the two wings of an eagle to fly / sail to a new place.. 1620, kept free from the face of the dragon for a duration of 3.5 ...1620+350=1970 ---> the serpent guise of the dragon vomited a flood after the woman, the faith, in an effort to wash the faith from off the Earth. :hiya: But the Earth will swallow the flooddrought coming. Then the dragon turns his attention (back) to the faith's other children, "to make war", who have the commandments of God. And - by then - according to Mt.23:39! imo - have the testimony of Jesus. ----> And the nations (the tares of) are gathered to Armageddon (Rev.16:14,15,16) ....go to chapter 14? :doh: The scenes of Rev. are not strictly in order..? some are even meanwhiles..?
:Peace2: :girlheart:
I love when you share your thoughts sister Marie , :dsunny:
It always sparks some more scriptures that connects other collective thoughts .
Hopefully building up in our most holy faith and not vain imaginations ...
Our keeping our hope alive , is in the Lord Jesus Christ , amen !
You made me think of Jesus Words of prophecy !!!!!! :banana:
He said it shall be like the days of Noah , Now to me , I see that is when the flood of lies come from satan to sweep the faith off the earth and kept in the ark /safety , as Noah meaning "rest, repose", and his sons 8 souls saved though
and from baptism of
a watery death , flooding the earth , Jesus is [the living ark of the covenant /heavenly rest for us ] now , Jesus states , when I return will I find faith in the earth , Peter goes no to describe the end times with the fire baptism as to destroy the works of satan's power because the fiery trials are testing the faith and purifying it though suffering , as we call upon the name of the LORD to be saved finding that promised rest in Jesus Christ :HeartThrob:.... many will not do this as described , but continue to blaspheme God because of the great heat and pressure .... from the seals opened and vials being poured out described in Revelations
Matt 24 Readiness at Any Hour
(Genesis 6:1-7; Mark 13:32-37; Luke 12:35-48)
36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away.
So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
I can see this as the corruptible image being [destroyed ] as the incorruptible remains . we have to think of Jesus saying , the angels will gather and bind up the tares first to be burned ! from Jesus doing this amazing dividing with
Holy Spirit & fire in Luke 12 ;49 from the two laws working in mankind simultaneously , death and life are ours all things are ours and we are Christs and Christ belongs to God .
Because Jesus gave a glorious clue when He said , man shall not live by bread alone [ the bread of heaven being the Lord Jesus Christ Himself ] but every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God ... :banana:
Jesus Christ testimony and witness is the Spirit of prophecy , what was , the examples for us to study in the WORD by the Holy Spirit witness also and what is
as we see it happening as to the things to come after ....
To me sister Marie , Gods Word is always perpetual [as occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted] and applies at all times and in all ways possible .Because nothing is impossible with God .
QuoteI believe it's Luke 21:24 (?) which says Jerusalem will/would be trampled until the times of the gentiles are complete..I can't think that was only until 70 a.d.?
AMEN !!!!! GOD IS ALWAYS and unchanging and unending ''WORD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH !!''.
Blessings always to you and yours Sis Marie !!
ps , I was thinking also about this "image of God " that we hold in our hearts and limit God in any form or way , coming from any deception , that is made with our own thoughts and other mens thoughts or of the devils lies and how they must line up with GODS TRUTH !
Anything out of line must be destroyed/shattered and taken out of the way , so the Truth can actually set us free from all forms bondage to death and sin and evil of any kind !! :banana: made new and innocent and purified completely whole
than we can glorify GOD 100% as TRUTH :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Amen Rose! ..And that ark of safety being Him, the logos, truth.. When asked "what will be the sign..?" What He said most was deception.. misleading.. beware no one misleads.. enticing away from the ark of safety. And thank goodness we have the truth written, especially that loaf of the N. "Testament", for the heart is tricky above all things! To say nothing of all confusions being upon the very forehead of our world! ...'gods' of the air (waves? lol) those popular trends and winds of confusion and outright deceptions.. That iron (unbreakable) rule(r)/rod of measure as to what is true and what is not, being truth! "His Word is Truth". Truth shatters - cannot be shattered.
Purity consumes impurity.. Truth consumes untruth.. Life! consumes death.. Spirit consumes carnal.. Perfection consumes "missing the mark"..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
IMO, there hasn't been and there won't be a bodily resurrection. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they died spiritually. The promised resurrection pertained to not physical death, but rather spiritual death. The resurrection wasn't to be from physical death, but rather resurrection from spiritual death.
If I claimed that dead people's bodies got resurrected, even as cemeteries remained undisturbed, *nobody* would believe me. Hymenaeus and Philetus didn't claim that a physical resurrection had occurred.
2 Timothy 2 (NKJV)
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
IMO, at the end of the Old Covenant Mosaic Age-- which ended with the utter, definitive end of the Old Covenant animal sacrifice system via Jerusalem's and the temple's destruction in A.D. 70 and resulting exile-- there was a spiritual resurrection, at which time Daniel and many others were resurrected.
IMO, Daniel 12's prophecies have all occurred/ been fulfilled/ come to pass. Rev 20:11-12 and Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14, 26-27 have occurred. IMO, those now on earth are living not under the Old Covenant/ in the Mosaic Age, but rather under the New Covenant/ in the Messianic Age.
_The Resurrection: Israel's Old Testament Hope in Chronological Order_ by Samuel G. Dawson
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Israels-Testament-Chronological-Order-ebook/dp/B07DWB3RFG/
Dear David ,
the transfiguration of Jesus Christ is the proof , and God is our heavenly witness in my opinion ... it was on mount Hermon In Biblical the meaning of the name Hermon is: Anathema, devoted to destruction.
Mount Hermon (2814 metres or 9,232 feet high), was suggested by R. H. Fuller and J. Lightfoot for two reasons: It is the highest in the area (and the Transfiguration took place on "an high mountain" (Matthew 17:1)), and it is located near Caesarea Philippi (Matthew 16:13), where the previous events reportedly took place at .
The transfiguration of Jesus is an event reported in the New Testament when Jesus is transfigured and becomes radiant in glory upon a mountain. The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36) describe it, and the Second Epistle of Peter also refers to it
(2 Peter 1:16–18).16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
...18O earth, do not cover my blood; may my cry for help never be laid to rest.
19Even now my witness is in heaven, and my advocate is on high!
20My friends are my scoffers as my eyes pour out tears to God....
Romans 1:9
God, whom I serve with my spirit in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you
Philippians 1:8
God is my witness how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 2:5
As you know, we never used words of flattery or any pretext for greed. God is our witness!
Genesis 31:50
If you mistreat my daughters or take other wives, although no one is with us, remember that God is a witness between you and me."
Job 16:18
O earth, do not cover my blood; may my cry for help never be laid to rest.
Job 19:25
But I know that my Redeemer lives, and that at the last He will stand upon the earth.
Job 25:2
"Dominion and awe belong to Him; He establishes harmony in the heights of heaven.
Job 31:2
For what is the allotment of God from above, or the heritage from the Almighty on high?
Psalm 89:37
like the moon, established forever, a faithful witness in the sky." Selah
Psalm 148:1
Hallelujah! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise Him in the highest places.
Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.
1 Samuel 12:5
And he said unto them, The LORD is witness against you, and his anointed is witness this day, that ye have not found ought in my hand. And they answered, He is witness.
Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Romans 9:1
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
on high.
Job 25:2
Dominion and fear are with him, he maketh peace in his high places.
Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,
1 Corinth 15
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead.
Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die,
but they will be raised to live forever.
43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory.
They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
45 The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.
47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:
"Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"
56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless.
Quote from: rosered on May 04, 2019, 03:09:45 AMthe transfiguration of Jesus Christ is the proof , and God is our heavenly witness in my opinion ... it was on mount Hermon
What exactly was on Mount Hermon?
"Mount Hermon (2814 metres or 9,232 feet high), was suggested by R. H. Fuller and J. Lightfoot"
Suggested by them for being what?
Quote from: DavidFord on May 04, 2019, 03:22:49 AM
Quote from: rosered on May 04, 2019, 03:09:45 AMthe transfiguration of Jesus Christ is the proof , and God is our heavenly witness in my opinion ... it was on mount Hermon
What exactly was on Mount Hermon?
"Mount Hermon (2814 metres or 9,232 feet high), was suggested by R. H. Fuller and J. Lightfoot"
Suggested by them for being what?
question 1 ) the transfiguration of Jesus Christ
question 2 ) The place the transfiguration took place they most likely say was Mount Hermon
Quote from: marie glen on April 29, 2019, 11:15:52 PM
I believe it's Luke 21:24 (?) which says Jerusalem will/would be trampled until the times of the gentiles are complete..
I can't think that was only until 70 a.d.?
What are your thoughts on Rev 17:10?
Revelation 17:10 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/17.htm
"And there are seven Kings; five have fallen and one is, and there is another not yet come, and when he comes, a little remaining time is given to him."
What's your opinion of Kenneth Gentry's 3 internal-evidence arguments for Revelation being written before A.D. 70 during the reign of Nero?
Compelling Internal Evidence For The Early Date View Of The Book Of Revelation
https://youtu.be/ZngW7fp_wvk
1) Rev 11:1-2
Lk 21:24
Rev 1:1
2) Rev 3:9
Gal 6:16
Philippians 3:3
Rom 2:28-29, 3:1-2
'they say they're Jews but they're not true Jews-- we followers of Yeshua the promised Meshikha _are_ the true Jews'
Judaism and Christianity were commingled prior to Jerusalem's destruction.
After Jerusalem's and the temple's destruction in A.D. 70, Judaism and Christianity became separated. In A.D. 80, a formal curse against followers of the Nazarene Jesus started being used.
3) 7 kings/emperorers/caesars-- 5 fallen: Julius Caesar. Augustus. Tiberius. Gaius. Claudius.
1 now is: Nero [died A.D. 68, reigned 13 1/2 years]
1 to come and reign a short period: Galba [reigned 6 months]
Jewish historian Josephus said Julius Caesar was the 1st caesar.
Suetonius's _Lives of the 12 Caesars_ starts with Julius Caesar.
Tacitus is the odd man out, by starting with Augustus.
Re: the possible rejoinder that Nero's persecution was not worldwide, do you think this Caesar Augustus-required registering was worldwide?:
Luke 2 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2&version=NKJV
1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do you think Rev 11:1-2 was written before, or after, the temple's destruction?
Revelation 11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/11.htm
1 And a reed was given to me like a rod and the Angel was standing and said, "Rise and measure the Temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it," 2 "And the inner court of the Temple leave out and do not measure it, because that is given to the Gentiles, and they will trample The Holy City forty two months. 3 "And I shall grant my two witnesses to prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days while wearing sackcloth."
IMO, unless otherwise noted.
"In Matthew 5, Jesus is telling us to keep the commandments, which has to be God's Law-10 Commandments. So many believers say they were abolished but that makes no sense"
In the Mosaic period i.e. the Old Covenant period, *nobody* kept all the commandments all the time. We are now living in the New Covenant period. Yeshua the Meshikha made this possible.
How Heaven and Earth Passed Away
http://ecclesia.org/truth/heaven-earth.html
"I'm still going to believe my lord and savior over Mans word"
There is a hell, and the devil and demons exist. Jesus said that he'd draw all men unto himself, and I believe him. Jesus likened God to a shepherd who goes after and successfully gets the lost sheep, and I believe him-- do you?
Quote from: DavidFord on May 12, 2019, 04:19:26 PM
IMO, unless otherwise noted.
"In Matthew 5, Jesus is telling us to keep the commandments, which has to be God's Law-10 Commandments. So many believers say they were abolished but that makes no sense"
..but not as a condition of redemption.. which most NT letters go into.. because there was so much pressure from the Judean believers that gentiles become Judean.. so Paul with others went to Jerusalem to meet with the (other) apostles to discuss - Acts 5
At which they concluded - " For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.."
Some think we must observe the Sabbath, but Paul as we know wrote "
Let each one be persuaded in their
own mind.. let us put no stumblingblock before others.." etc "one esteems one day above others unto the LORD, and another esteems all days alike, let each be.." (persuaded in their own mind..)
And in 1 Tim.1:8-10 says "8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"
The carnal character needs reminders, do not harm, rob, defraud, cheat.. etc and a carnal nation needs to set aside a day to remember God..
Quote
In the Mosaic period i.e. the Old Covenant period, *nobody* kept all the commandments all the time. We are now living in the New Covenant period. Yeshua the Meshikha made this possible.
Amen some believers will be saved but like by fire.. barely snatched from it(?) if they have clung to the carnal ways
Quote
How Heaven and Earth Passed Away
http://ecclesia.org/truth/heaven-earth.html
"I'm still going to believe my lord and savior over Mans word"
But the link is interpretation..
I prefer straight word not ppl's interpretations
2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.People are skilled at adding to and taking away from the straight forward as inspired Word(s) of God.. it would be better, imo, to quote the Word itself, sans interpretation.. who assigned aLL these so wise interpreters? That they can improve upon His words.. I didn't buy it 40 years ago and thus have avoided a LOT of indoctrination it seems.. and I'm not buying it any more today.
I think the key to knowing true from not so true is the scripture itself. That way any error should eventually fade away..
Quote
There is a hell, and the devil and demons exist. Jesus said that he'd draw all men unto himself, and I believe him. Jesus likened God to a shepherd who goes after and successfully gets the lost sheep, and I believe him-- do you?
I agree.. except for hell.. will God torture even for a duration until one submits? Funny how some of those who inquisitioned folks, came to imagine a purgatory.. Some words have had myth attached to them.
sheol - where there is no knowledge nor doing - Eccles. 9:10 "vanity, vanity" with man "all is vanity"
hades - place of the dead, residing of the dead, unseen - imo, still the grave - lower part of the Earth, dust of the grave
pit - where worms are the bed and covering - Isaiah 14; and the dust of - Ps.30
tartarus - deepest darkness (over time myth attached to the word) rebel angels are locked into deep darkness & judgment
gehenna a valley, hinnom tophet, jezreel..
I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. I will enter into judgment against them there concerning my people Israel who are my inheritance, whom they scattered among the nations" Joel 3:2 .."valley of decision" Joel 3:14 "I will make Israel (Jerusalem?) a stone of offense to all nations.."
"They have built places here for worship of the god Baal so that they could sacrifice their children as burnt offerings to him in the fire. Such sacrifices are something I never commanded them to make! They are something I never told them to do! Indeed, such a thing never entered my mind! So I, the LORD, say: 'The time will soon come that people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Hinnom Valley. But they will call this valley the Valley of Slaughter!'" Jer.9:5-6
harsh? "..but joy cometh in the morning.. "at morn, singing.." I am not in agreement with reducing these verses to simile and parable only..
I believe there is a mushroom which will trigger a lake/flood of fire in that very valley. "All shall look upon the carcasses" - the results of living life with other than God on the throne ruling all - "and they will be repulsed" thoroughly repulsed.. enough to bar the way of it occurring again.
:banana: ps - death and hell (what is partner to death?) death and the grave will go to the final (imo) lake of fire
-- 2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day
of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness will dwell."
:Peace2: God bless!
"Following and praying to a fake dead messiah is one of the worst things you can do"
Yes, Yeshua the Meshikha died, but then he rose from the dead-- he's currently alive.
"If Jesus is so clearly 'the Messiah' why did the Jews of the time reject him?"
True Jews of the time e.g. Peter Paul Stephen Nathaniel Barnabus Yehuda and Mary accepted Yeshua as being the Meshikha.
"Weren't we looking for the messiah??"
Many at the time correctly recognized that Yeshua was the Meshikha. Some didn't.
"Of all the people on earth, who do you think would be the best qualified to actually KNOW if someone was valid, or a false prophet?"
"Jews whom loved and adored Caesar"
Many adherents of Judaism rejected Yeshua the Meshikha as being the long-awaited Messiah, and embraced obvious frauds, to their detriment.
"Jews were devastated"
People who place their trust in untrustworthy things and untrustworthy people are apt to be devastated. Who or what do you trust in?
George Peter Holford's _The Destruction of Jerusalem_ (1805, 1814, 1858)
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1805_holford_proof.html
https://www.amazon.com/Destruction-Jerusalem-Absolute-Irresistible-Christianity/dp/0967831725/
PDF http://vladspost.com/pdf/Jews/Destruction%2520of%2520Jerusalem.pdf From the html:
"Tell us, when shall these things be-- and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled ?" Such were the questions of the disciples, in answer to which our LORD condescended to give them a particular account of the several important events that would precede, as well as of the prognostics which would announce, the approaching desolations ; including suitable directions for the regulation of their conduct under the various trials to which they were to be exposed.
He commences with a caution : "Take heed," says be, "that no man deceive you ; for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many." The necessity for this friendly warning soon appeared ; for within one year after our Lord's ascension, rose Dositheus the Samaritan, who had the boldness to assert that he was the Messiah, of whom Moses prophesied ; while his disciple Simon Magus deluded multitudes into a belief that he, himself, was the "GREAT POWER OF GOD."
About three years afterwards another Samaritan impostor appeared, and declared that he would shew the people the sacred utensils, said to have been deposited by Moses, in mount Gerizim. Induced by an idea that the Messiah, their great deliverer, was now come, an armed multitude assembled under him, but Pilate speedily defeated them, and slew their chief.
While Cuspius Fadus was procurator in Judea, another deceiver arose, whose name was Theudas. [4] This man actually succeeded so far as to persuade a very great multitude to take their effects and follow him to Jordan, assuring them, that the river would divide at his command. Fadus, however, pursued their with a troop of horse, and slew many of them, and among the rest the impostor himself, whose head was cut off and carried to Jerusalem.
Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea, and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should there behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the ALMIGHTY. Of these Felix, from time to time, apprehended many, and put them to death. About this period (A.D. 55) arose Felix the celebrated Egyptian impostor, who collected thirty-thousand followers, and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling, them that from thence they should see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command, as, a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison, and to their obtaining the sovereignty of the city. The Roman governor, however, apprehending this to be the beginning of revolt, immediately attacked them, slew four hundred of them, and dispersed the rest ; but the Egyptian effected his escape.
In the time of Porcius Festus (A.D. 60), another distinguished impostor seduced the people, by promising them deliverance from the Roman yoke, if they would follow him into the wilderness ; but Festus sent out an armed force which speedily destroyed both the deceiver and his followers.
In short, impostors, to a divine commission, continually and fatally deceived the people, and at once justified the caution, and fulfilled the prediction of our LORD.
If it be objected that none of these impostors, except Dositheus, assumed the name of Messiah, we reply, that the groveling expectations of the Jews was directed to a Messiah who should merely deliver them from the Roman yoke, and "restore the kingdom to Jerusalem ;" and such were the pretensions of these deceivers. This expectation, indeed, is the only true solution of these strange and reputed insurrections ; which will naturally remind the reader of the following prophetic expressions of our LORD : "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not ; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." " If they shall say unto you, 'Behold he is in the desert !' go not forth. They will shew [5] (or pretend to shew) great signs and wonders,"' &c. Our Saviour thus proceeded : "And ye shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars ; see that ye be not troubled : for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet, for nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences : all these are the beginnings of sorrows. " -- Matt. xxiv. 7,8.
Based on material at: The Problem with Eternal Punishment - The Total Victory of Christ
https://youtu.be/cgeUgd3A4gY
IMO unless otherwise noted.
In the Mosaic period i.e. the Old Covenant period, nobody kept all the commandments all the time. We are now living in the New Covenant period. Yeshua the Meshikha made this possible.
How Heaven and Earth Passed Away
http://ecclesia.org/truth/heaven-earth.html
"Since when does anyone abolish a law or a rule just because 'nobody' keeps it?"
God isn't a mere "anyone." God abolished the old covenant. People weren't keeping it, and God had sufficient bolstering of his message that humans are incapable of perfect righteousness in their own efforts.
"to say we don't need His Laws, the 10 Statements ('commandments' is NOT a proper translation) is illogical"
Er, those were commandments, not mere statements. Do you think we need the prohibition of mixing clothing materials?
"Or we don't have to pay attention to not committing adultery, or theft?"
If you love God and love people, you won't engage in adultery, nor thievery.
"I read the article you included the link to. It is not accurate. Christ said 'the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AMONG YOU, and it is that kingdom, a spiritual mindset and purpose, that puts us there"
Do you think "kingdom of Heaven" is equivalent to "heaven and earth"?
"Yehoshua is telling us to keep the commandments, which has to be Gods Law-10 Commandments"
Which of the 10 Commandments involves tithing?
Matthew 23:23 (based on Paul Younan's translation of the original Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
Woe to you Sapra [Scribes] and Pharisees. Hypocrites!
For you tithe mint and dill and cumana [cumin],
and you overlook the more important things of the namusa [law]:
dina [justice] and mercy and faith.
And these things were necessary for you to have done,
and these things you should not have forgotten.
"The Law is a 'teacher', it teaches us what sin is, how to stop engaging in it, and from there reach a level where we no longer even want to commit sin"
How did being under the law work out for Israel? (she forever stopped sinning? she reached "a level where" she "no longer even want[ed] to commit sin"?)
Romans 7 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+7&version=NKJV
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But *if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.* 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, *my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead,* that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the *sinful passions which were aroused by the law* were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 *But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,* *so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.*
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless *the law had said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire.* For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And *the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.* 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
"change all those useless laws He made"
The Mosaic Age ended, and we are presently in the Messianic Age. Are you aware of anyone (possible exception: Jesus) who kept the law perfectly?
John 7:19 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=keep+law&qs_version=NKJV&limit=500
Did not Moses give you the law,
*yet none of you keeps the law?*
Why do you seek to kill Me?"
Do you think males that become Christians need to be circumcised, if they aren't already?
Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—
Do you think Jesus-- who is God-- has the ability to revise the law?
Matthew 17 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+17&version=NKJV
3 And behold, *Moses* and Elijah *appeared* to them, *talking with Him [Jesus].* .... 5 .... a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, *"This is My beloved Son,* in whom I am well pleased. *Hear Him [Jesus]!"*
Matthew 5 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=NKJV
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 *But I say to you that....*
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 *But I say to you that....*
31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 *But I say to you that....*
"so God needed to learn that His creation couldn't keep His 'commandments'?"
God knows the future, and God created the human heart. God already knew that humans couldn't and wouldn't keep His commandments, but rather would sin willfully and regularly, and God knew all this long before he made the first human. Do you agree with me that God knows the future? Do you see a commandment by God here?:
Genesis 2 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=NKJV
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but *of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,* for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Do you agree with me that:
all humans will eventually become reconciled on their end to God, and enter heaven?
God still talks to and with people, and God still does 'miracles'?
the events prophesied in Mt 24 and pretty much all of Revelation already happened?
all of creation will eventually become restored to the way God at the outset intended things to be?
266. A Happy Eschatology
https://freedomarc.blog/2019/08/15/266-a-happy-eschatology/
Three streams
In conversation with God, He told me that there are three streams coming together. At present, there are a handful of people who flow with two of those streams, and even fewer who embrace all three. For now, each is mostly blind to the direction that the others are coming from but they will merge in the flow of the restoration of all things.
The Christian Universalists are travelling towards both a realised eschatology and an open heaven mystical flow.
The mystics are travelling towards a realised eschatology and universal restoration.
The realised eschatologists are travelling towards the mystical and the restoration of all things position.
Most eschatological systems have far from happy endings, involving expectations of fearful judgment, doom, gloom, destruction and failure for mankind and the rest of creation. In "happy eschatology", prophecies of doom and gloom, judgment and destruction are seen as already fulfilled, leading to a restorative period in which all things can be restored. The future is positive and filled with possibilities of increase and blessing.
The ending is the beginning. Our God is Author and Perfector of all. The doom and gloom proponents think our great God is unable to accomplish His plan of being the Source, Guide & Goal of the ta panta (the all). How wrong they be!
Quote from: FineLinen on August 11, 2020, 07:22:22 PM
The ending is the beginning. Our God is Author and Perfector of all. The doom and gloom proponents think our great God is unable to accomplish His plan of being the Source, Guide & Goal of the ta panta (the all). How wrong they be!
Indeed. We're living in an era where God's kingdom keeps expanding, keeps getting stronger and stronger, via him working through us humans that have physical bodies. And we have a role to play in that expansion.
Daniel 2 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/niv/daniel/2.htm
34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. 36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. ....
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy."
Romans 8 (Berean Literal), https://biblehub.com/blb/romans/8.htm
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation awaits the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the One having subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay, into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Revelation 11: A Preterist Commentary-- Who are the Two Witnesses?
https://revelationrevolution.org/revelation-11-a-preterist-commentary-who-are-the-two-witnesses/
.... I present historical evidence that Jesus the son of Ananus is the two witnesses of Revelation 11. It appears to me that there can be no better candidate for the two witnesses than this man as he seems to fulfill perhaps all the predictions concerning this figure or figures as described in the text.
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"Did Jesus ever have people walk down an aisle, confess their sins and be saved?"
Did John the Baptiser?
Acts 13:24 (NIV, biblehub) Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.
Matthew 3:11 (NIV) "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
"Salvation only meant that the Jews, Israelites would be saved from the historic burning of Jeruselem"
According to my research, 0 followers of Yeshua the Meshikha died in the destruction of Jerusalem, because they heeded Yeshua's Matthew 24 warnings. In sharp contrast, many many thousands of adherents of Judaism died premature deaths in awful ways in Jerusalem's destruction.
George Peter Holford's _The Destruction of Jerusalem_ (1805, 1814, 1858)
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1805_holford_proof.html
https://www.amazon.com/Destruction-Jerusalem-Absolute-Irresistible-Christianity/dp/0967831725/
PDF http://vladspost.com/pdf/Jews/Destruction%2520of%2520Jerusalem.pdf
Romans 3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), biblehub
28 We determine therefore that by faith a man is made righteous and not by the works of The Written Law. 29 Is he The God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also. 30 Because God is One, who declares the circumcision righteous by faith and also the uncircumcision by faith.
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So the 'new heavens and the new earth' haven't yet come, in your view.
Do you think the Old Covenant law is still in effect?
Matthew 5 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English, biblehub)
17 Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets;
I am not come to revoke but to fulfill.
18 Amen, I say to you that
until Heaven and earth will pass away,
one Yodh or one Taag will not pass away from The Written Law
until everything will happen.
When was the Old Covenant system created? Which verse(s) are you looking at?
Did Edom have a 'heaven and earth'? (I'm looking at Isaiah 34)
Did Babylon have a 'heaven and earth'? (I'm looking at Isaiah 13, esp. verses 9-10, 13)
Did the land of Israel have a 'heaven and earth'? (I'm looking at Isaiah 24, esp. verses 1, 5-6, 21, 25)
Cain intentionally killed his brother Abel. Was that a sin?
Is there any Old Testament support for the view that 'gentiles' means 'descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who were uninterested in following the law of Moses'?
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Do you need Rev 20:5a for any of your claims? It's not well-supported.
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5467/can-revelation-205-the-rest-of-the-dead-rightfully-claim-to-be-part-of-the
The phrase in question is:
οἱ λοιποὶ τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἔζησαν ἄχρι τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
....
Weight for Inclusion
Of the six witnesses of first order that contain Revelation 20:5, three are with the phrase and three without.
With the phrase are:
Codex Alexandrinus (early 5th c.)
Codex Athous Pantokratoros (10th c.)
The majority of manuscripts containing the commentary of Andrew of Caesarea
Without the phrase are:
Codex Sinaiticus (early to mid 4th c.)
Codex Ephraimi (6th c.)
Majority of witnesses of second order
In addition, the phrase appears in the majority of early Latin manuscripts, but not in Syriac or Coptic.
Tomasz Reklamy - 2 years ago, light editing
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1936/08/is-revelation-205-spurious
According to Novum Testamentum Greace Nestle-Aland this phrase of this verse is not in the Sinaitic - why do you write that it is? From 181 Greek manuscripts, 71 do not contain phrase "The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished."
It does not exist in Pes hito as well - and in some early commentaries of Revelation like Victorius from Pettau and Oecumenius (here this phrase exist in a comment, but not in a cited Revelation text above).
Hi David,
Am I understanding you correctly that you believe we must keep the commandments? Do you believe keeping law saves us? If yes to these two questions, what did we need Jesus for? Just wondering.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on August 21, 2020, 01:11:21 AM
Am I understanding you correctly that you believe we must keep the commandments?
Do you believe keeping law saves us?
If yes to these two questions, what did we need Jesus for?
Yes, those commandments to 1. love God, and 2. love people.
No.
Not applicable.
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Yeshua the Meshikha kept his promises and returned as of the end of A.D. 70, and has since then made many additional appearances to various people.
yes, I agree those two commandments override all the others. On these two laws hang all the laws and the prophets.
CHB
Caesar Titus stood in the temple.
A Preterist Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: Summary and Highlights
https://revelationrevolution.org/2-thessalonians-2-1-9-a-preterist-commentary-the-man-of-lawlessness-revealed/
In 168 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies sacrificed a PIG and set up an IDOL of a foreign god in the Temple (1 Macc 1:59; 2 Macc 6:1-2; Wars 1.1.2) This is the original abomination that causes desolation of Dan 11:31. TITUS DID THE SAME THING in A.D. 70 when Titus' army worshiped the ensigns (foreign idols of Rome and Caesar) in the Temple (Wars 6.6.1) and sacrificed a PIG there as part of suovetaurilia. Not only did Titus mimic Antiochus Epiphanies' original abomination that causes desolation, Titus also shares all of Antiochus Epiphanies' epithets. Antiochus Epiphanies is the original '"Lawless One" having been given this title in the second century B.C. (Psalms of Solomon 17:9-16). Antiochus Epiphanies is also called "the man, the sinner" (1 Macc 2:48, 62), and the "Little Horn" (Dan 8). Having mimicked (and even exceeded) Antiochus Epiphanies, Titus is ALSO called "the Lawless One" (2 Thess 2), "Man of Sin" (2 Thess 2) and "Little Horn" (Dan 7). Titus represents an antitypical return of Antiochus Epiphanies, the quintessential historical Jewish nemesis.
Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. 1 Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: "He sets Himself up in God's Temple displaying himself as a god." Josephus writes, "And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator."2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole.
Vespasian miraculously healed a blind man and a lame man or a man with a withered hand around the time of Titus' return to Jerusalem to besiege the city and immediately prior to his triumphal entry into Rome as its new emperor literally fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2:9: "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders . . ." Three different Roman historians recorded this miracle wherein Vespasian spit on eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men: "With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he [Vespasian] did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion."3 There were also many miracles recorded around the time Titus returned with the Roman army to besiege Jerusalem as well as afterwards when he returned to Rome to celebrate the triumph with his father.
In the first century, the Caesars were worshipped in Rome's eastern provinces in the imperial cult as a god. Recall that Titus was given the title "Caesar" in A.D. 69 at Vespasian's coronation. And when the Romans broke into the Temple, Suetonius says that Titus' army wanted to make him emperor.4 Since the time of Augustus, the Roman emperor was Pontifex Maximus or high priest of Roman religious life. Furthermore, Titus' army was drawn from the eastern provinces where emperor worship was a day-to-day occurrence and officially sanctioned in the Imperial Cult in Rome at the time. Thus Caesar Titus was his army?s general, perceived emperor and Pontifex Maximus. And as Pontifex Maximus or high priest in the presence of his army drawn from the east where emperor worship was officially sanctioned, Titus was expected to both direct and receive divine worship while the Romans worshiped the images of himself and Vespasian on the ensigns in the Temple on the 9th of Av of A.D. 70.
Titus Flavius Vespasianus is called the man of lawlessness because he permanently put an end to the practice of the Law by destroying the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70 thereby making it impossible to fully follow the customs of the Law of Moses.
How could Titus be the Lawless One if he did not die at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70? Of all the other possible first-century candidates for the Lawless One?Nero, Simon, John, Eleazar ben Jair, and Eleazar ben Simon?none of these people are known to have died at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 never says the Lawless One would die at the coming of Christ in A.D. 70. This verse literally reads, "And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will TAKE AWAY with the Breath of His Mouth and DO AWAY WITH by the Splendor of His Coming." Titus was done away with and taken away in A.D. 70 since he left Jerusalem and returned to Rome immediately after the city fell in A.D. 70.
One day Jesus said some standing right there, would sed yhe kingdom come in glory. That occurred (imo) on Day of Pentecost 7 weeks after His resurrection.
But that is not the return of Jesus in glory when every eye will see him.
Prophecy tel-escopes.. The Greek word translated ?end? is ?tel?and means literally ?end-aim?. Which is excellent in showing how prophecies scope, from a sooner, smaller in scope fulfillment and at least one more larger in scope or global fulfillment.
The prophecy of the Lord?s advents are the perfect example. It?s obvious His first acvent did not fulfill all the prophecies. (Why woukd some be literal fulfillments - seen - and the rest merely metaphor or symbolic, or only spiritual? Literal life isn?t spiritual?
I don?t inderstand how all this learning of good and evil - mankind?s history - to preterists concludes..
"The Ark Was Not Restored"
The 2nd temple was demolished in A.D. 70.
The 'ark' is Yeshua the Meshikha. All who come to him have life.
Hebrews 11:7 (Berean Study Bible), biblehub
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
1 Peter 3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
18 Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit. 19 And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol, 20 These who from the first were not convinced in the days of Noah when the long-suffering of God commanded that there would be an ark, upon the hope of their repentance, and only eight souls entered it and were kept alive by water. 21 For you also are saved in it by that simile in baptism, not when you wash the body from impurity, but when you confess God with a pure conscience, and by the resurrection of Yeshua, The Messiah, 22 He who has been escorted into Heaven, and he is upon the right hand of God, and the Angels and the Principalities and the Powers are subjected unto him.
Revelation 11:19 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
And the Temple was opened in Heaven, and the Ark of his covenant appeared in the Temple, and there were lightnings, thunders, voices, earthquakes and large hail.
Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2020, 07:04:49 PMOne day Jesus said some standing right there, would see the kingdom come in glory. That occurred (imo) on Day of Pentecost 7 weeks after His resurrection.
But that is not the return of Jesus in glory when every eye will see him. ....
I don't understand how all this learning of good and evil - mankind's history - to preterists concludes
History will have Jesus and Jesus's love totally victorious over all of his enemies.
Jesus prophesied to the high priest, [Mark 14:62]"ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Mark 14:61-62 (KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and *ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.*
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From Jesus' crucifixion in A.D. 30 until the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in A.D. 70, maybe there was a 40 year transition period before the final, definitive end of the Old Covenant.
How many have had the name 'Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus/Yah-saves/Yah-gives-life the Meshikha/ Mashiach/ Messiah'?
"Christ's generation was the LAST DAYS being fulfilled"
Yes, the last days of that age.
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spyshadowrex 48d
So I've been doing some research about what happened to preteristarchive.com. It was one of the best places for research and also one of the main reasons I knew which resources to use for studies about eschatology. After watching some sermons from Jeff Durbin about the end times, he recommended some books by people such as Kenneth Gentry and John L. Bray. Eventually, I turned into a postmillennial (Still doing research and analyzing the Bible thoroughly). Luckily, I found a way to access Preterist Archive which can be done through web.archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200228191309/http://www.preteristarchive.com/
Another good resources for getting hard to find preterist information and books is https://americanvision.org/ which is run by Gary DeMar.
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files names of books; PDFs not up
https://web.archive.org/web/20200602031204/http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/
How the Greek (2nd Century B.C.) and Roman Armies (1st Century A.D.) with Their Idols of Zeus Literally fulfill All Bible Prophecies Concerning the Abomination that Causes Desolation
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/the-abomination-that-causes-desolation-explained/
Revelation 13: A Preterist Commentary
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-13-a-preterist-commentary/
The fact that an _Imago_ of Titus was present in the Temple at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 is indicated in early Christian literature. _Scholia on Matthew_, a ninth or tenth century Christian composition, states, "What is the abomination of desolation? It speaks of the image of Titus who captured the city, and after the destruction of Jerusalem erected his own statue."112 Theophylact of Ochrida (d. 1108) also states that an image of Titus was present in the Temple in A.D. 70 on the ensign called the _numina legionum_ (meaning "gods of the legions"): "_The abomination of desolation_ is the statue of the captor of the city. For every idol is called an _abomination_. And it is one _of desolation_ because after the Romans had captured Jerusalem, they laid waste to it, leaving it desolate, and set up this statue within the sanctuary of the temple."113
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"Who are the ten kings who will make war and be overcome by the Lamb?"
Revelation 17:12-14 Preterist Commentary: Could there also be a Jewish Fulfillment to the Ten Horns?
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-17-a-preterist-commentary/
In the commentary on Daniel 7 I explained that I believe that the ten horns represent the first ten Caesars as well as the ten Zealot leaders of the Jewish Revolt.82 ....
The ten horns are said to be ten kings (Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12). Thus if the ten toes of the statue in Daniel 2 are also the ten horns this iron and clay mixture implies that there should be two sets of ten kings: one Roman represented by the iron part of the ten toes and one Israeli represented by the clay part of the ten toes (Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:6). Above I mentioned the fact that I believe the iron or Roman aspect of the ten horns/toes represents the first ten Caesars. Where there also ten Israelite horns? I believe that there were. In Wars of the Jews, Josephus mentions the fact that the Jewish rebels appointed ten generals/governors over Israel in A.D. 66, near the start of the Jewish revolt: ....
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"the mortal wound to the head of one of the rulers, who will be miraculously healed from this.(Rev 13:3)"
"A.D. 70 Doctrine" Commentary on Revelation 13: The Heads of the Beast are the Dynastic Emperors of Rome.
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-13-a-preterist-commentary/
The heads of the sea beast are the heads of the Roman Empire, the Caesars.8 But the heads of the beast are not just the emperors of Rome. The heads of the beast are those emperors who reigned in the two dynasties that ruled Rome in the first century, the Caesar family dynasty and the Flavian family dynasty. The first six heads are the six emperors of the Caesar family dynasty beginning with the very first, Julius Caesar. Thus the first six heads are the first six Caesars: 1) Julius Caesar 2) Augustus Caesar 3) Tiberius Caesar 4) Gaius Caesar 5) Claudius Caesar 6) Nero Caesar. In Revelation 13:3 the beast is said to have a fatally wounded head. This head is the sixth head, Nero Caesar, who committed suicide in A.D. 68. Nero was the last ruler of the Caesar Family Dynasty. And since Nero had not named his successor, there was a succession struggle resulting in civil war following Nero?s suicide. With Nero?s death, the end of the Caesar Family Dynasty, and the resulting civil war which threatened to collapse the empire at the height of its power, the beast seems to have a fatal wound in Revelation 13:3.
Thus with the sixth head severed this beast appears to be dead with Nero. .... The Flavians prevented the empire from collapsing by bringing peace and order back to Rome. Thus under the reign of the Flavians; Vespasian, Titus and Domitian; the beast came back to life.
In the civil war in the year following Nero?s death during which Galba, Otho and Vitellius reigned, these three emperors who were not a part of the Caesar family line are not heads of the beast as the beast was dead at the time as the Caesar family dynasty ended with Nero. The beast then rose from the dead with the rise of the Flavian Dynasty the following year. At this time peace and order was restored to the empire and the beast came back to life. The sixth head of the sea beast then grew two new heads from the neck of the original severed head. These two heads that grew from the neck of the former sixth head are Vespasian and Titus who were both declared Caesar at the same time and shared the same Roman cognomen or formal nickname, Titus Flavius Vespasianus.
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"the Beast is given power to a statue and people will acknowledge this by worshiping the Beast and the statue. Rev 13:15"
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-13-a-preterist-commentary/
Fulfilled Eschatology, A Commentary of Revelation 13:15: Statues in Pagan Temples in Syria, Israel's Northern Neighbor, were Famous for Speaking and Moving just Like the Image of Revelation 13:15.
It is possible that ventriloquism and counterfeit miracles were performed with the ensigns under Titus' direction in the Temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70 as this appears to have been a common practice in the pagan Temples of Syria, Judaea's northern neighbor and the province in which much of Titus' army was drawn. The following is written concerning the pagan temples of Syria in the second century A.D.: "*The statues* sweat, and *move, and utter oracles, and a shout* has often been raised when the temple was closed; it has been heard by many [emphasis mine]."115 Regardless of whether or not these signs were faked in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was common in the pagan Temples of Israel's northern neighbor, v. 15 was certainly fulfilled at least in a mundane sense in A.D. 70.
Preterism, A Commentary of Revelation 13:15: The Mouth of the Beast is Titus, the False Prophet of Revelation 19:20.
In Revelation 13:5 the beast is "given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies[.]" As explained in v. 5, the "mouth" of the beast is Titus. In v. 15 the mouth of the beast, Titus, is said to speak on the Beast Vespasian's behalf: "He [Titus, the mouth of the beast,] was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak . . ." As stated above, Titus was the "mouth" of the beast in the same way that Aaron was the mouth of Moses according to Exodus 4:16: "[H]e [Aaron] will be as a mouth for you [Moses] and you will be as God to him." When Aaron acts as a mouth to Moses he acts as though he is a prophet to a god. This is partially why Titus is also called the false prophet to the beast in Revelation 19:20.
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"When was the mark of the beast placed in people? (Rev 14:9)"
How the Phylacteries Worn on the Forehead and Hand Were Related to the Mark of the Beast.... to Roman Money....
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/phylacteries-worn-forehead-hand-related-mark-beast/
"preterism is directly addressed and condemned in Scriptures"
Reference? When was that scripture(s) written? (before A.D. 70?)
250 trillion years from now, will that scripture(s) still address and condemn preterism?
"2 Timothy 2:16 - 18 says, 'But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.?'"
When was that scripture written? (before A.D. 70?)
250 trillion years from now, will that scripture still address and condemn preterism?
"that beast did not come"
Was "the great city" destroyed?
Rev 11:8 (King James), https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-8.htm
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Revelation 18:21 (King James), https://biblehub.com/revelation/18-21.htm
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
"The entire world did not behold His return"
Jesus prophesied to the high priest, [Mark 14:62]"ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Did that prophecy come to pass?
Mark 14:61-62 (KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and *ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.*
R.C. Sproul was a preterist. Do you consider him a heretic?
Hank Hannegraff (now Eastern Orthodox) is a preterist. Do you consider him a heretic?
"The resurrection was claimed to have occurred when Jesus resurrected c 32 AD"
Do any preterists in the 19th, 20th, or 21st centuries claim "The resurrection... occurred when Jesus resurrected c 32 AD"?
"Revelation was written at the time of Dometian"
Reference?
"Some things were fiulfilled, yet others not"
Which of Daniel's prophecies remain to be fulfilled?
"Preterism... will still be false throughout time"
So 250 trillion years from now, the statement 'The resurrection already happened' will be false?
"opinions of men are irrelevant"
Including opinions of: Eusebius? Irenaeus? the author of 1 Clement? Polycarp? yourself?
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"The resurrection claimed by those preterists spoke of had not occurred, nor has it"
What happens to individuals who die these days while being followers of Jesus?
Has Daniel received yet his "allotted inheritance"?
Daniel 12:13 (NIV)
"As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
Daniel 12 (Literal Standard)
https://biblehub.com/lsv/daniel/12.htm
1 "And at that time Michael stands up, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of your people, and there has been a time of distress, such as has not been since there has been a nation until that time, and at that time your people escape, everyone who is found written in the scroll.
2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground awake, some to continuous life, and some to reproaches-- to continuous abhorrence.
3 And those teaching shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars for all time and forever."
4 "And you, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the scroll until the time of the end, many go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied."
5 "And I have looked-- I, Daniel-- and behold, two others are standing, one here at the edge of the flood and one there at the edge of the flood,
6 and he says to the one clothed in linen, who [is] on the waters of the flood, Until when [is] the end of these wonders?
7 And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] on the waters of the flood, and he lifts up his right hand and his left to the heavens, and swears by Him who is living for all time, that,
After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, all these are finished.
8 And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say,
O my lord, what [is] the latter end of these?
9 And he says, Go, Daniel; for hidden and sealed [are] the things until the time of the end.
10 Purify themselves, indeed, make themselves white, indeed, many are refined: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked understand, and those acting wisely understand;
11 and from the time of the turning aside of the continuous [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] one thousand, two hundred, and ninety days.
12 O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and comes to the one thousand, three hundred, thirty-five days.
13 And you, go on to the end, then you rest, and stand in your lot at the end of the days."
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"Read the scriptures"
When Daniel 2 speaks of a [v. 35]"rock that... became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth," and says [v. 44]"the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever," do you believe that that God-instituted kingdom still remains to be instituted?
Daniel 2 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/niv/daniel/2.htm
34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. 36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. ....
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
"The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy."
When Daniel 7 speaks of someone [v. 13-14]"as a son of man" coming "with the clouds of the heavens.... and to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion [is] a dominion age-[en]during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed," do you think that that "son of man" has yet to begin reigning?
Daniel 7 (Young's Literal), my "[en]" bracket in 14 and 27
9 'I was seeing till that thrones have been thrown down, and the Ancient of Days is seated, His garment as snow [is] white, and the hair of his head [is] as pure wool, His throne flames of fire, its wheels burning fire.
10 A flood of fire is proceeding and coming forth from before Him, a thousand thousands do serve Him, and a myriad of myriads before Him do rise up, the Judge is seated, and the books have been opened. ....
13 'I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was [one] coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near.
14 And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion [is] a dominion age-[en]during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed. ....
27 and the kingdom, and the dominion, even the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heavens, is given to the people-- the saints of the Most High, His kingdom [is] a kingdom age-[en]during, and all dominions do serve and obey Him.
"Has A New Heaven And New Earth Been Regenerated Yet?"
Yes.
Has there arrived a new Jerusalem?
Is it currently the case that "God's dwelling place is now among the people"?
Hebrews 12
https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12.htm
18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire....
22 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels
23 in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven.
Revelation 21
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/21.htm
1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
/////////////
"Has A New Heaven And New Earth Been Regenerated Yet?"
On several occasions, God ended 'heaven and earth,' which is a reference to ending the then-current order of things, and replaced it with a new 'heaven and earth' i.e. a new order of things.
Note the "once more" here:
Haggai 2
https://biblehub.com/niv/haggai/2.htm
6 "This is what the Lord Almighty says:
'In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land.
7 I will shake all nations, and what is desired by all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,'
says the Lord Almighty.
8 'The silver is mine and the gold is mine,'
declares the Lord Almighty.
9 'The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,'
says the Lord Almighty.
'And in this place I will grant peace,'
declares the Lord Almighty."
///////////////////////////
Is the prophecy that [13:10]"the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light" yet to be fulfilled?
Is the prophecy that [34:4]"All the stars of heaven will be dissolved. The skies will be rolled up like a scroll, and all their stars will fall" yet to be fulfilled?
Is the prophecy that [24:19]"The earth is utterly broken apart" yet to be fulfilled?
Isaiah 13 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/13.htm
1 This is the burden against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz received:
....
9 Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming?
cruel, with fury and burning anger?
to make the earth a desolation
and to destroy the sinners within it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
will not give their light.
The rising sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil
and the wicked for their iniquity.
I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant
and lay low the pride of the ruthless.
....
17 Behold, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who have no regard for silver
and no desire for gold.
18 Their bows will dash young men to pieces;
they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb;
they will not look with pity on the children.
19 And Babylon, the jewel of the kingdoms,
the glory of the pride of the Chaldeans,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isaiah 34 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/34.htm
1 Come near, O nations, to listen;
pay attention, O peoples.
Let the earth hear, and all that fills it,
the world and all that springs from it.
2 The LORD is angry with all the nations
and furious with all their armies.
He will devote them to destruction;
He will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be left unburied,
and the stench of their corpses will rise;
the mountains will flow with their blood.
4 All the stars of heaven will be dissolved.
The skies will be rolled up like a scroll,
and all their stars will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like foliage from the fig tree.
5 When My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens,
then it will come down upon Edom,
upon the people I have devoted to destruction.
Isaiah 24 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/24.htm
18 .... For the windows of heaven are open,
and the foundations of the earth are shaken.
19 The earth is utterly broken apart,
the earth is split open,
the earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth staggers like a drunkard
and sways like a shack.
Earth?s rebellion weighs it down,
and it falls, never to rise again.
21 In that day the LORD will punish
the host of heaven above
and the kings of the earth below.
22 They will be gathered together
like prisoners in a pit.
They will be confined to a dungeon
and punished after many days.
23 The moon will be confounded
and the sun will be ashamed;
for the LORD of Hosts will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before His elders with great glory.
/////////////////////////////
'Yes, None Of That Has Yet Happened"
So Babylon and Edom are still around, and are still awaiting destruction?
Hey David. Scott Maxham brought your name up over at the TM facebook page in a discussion about Aramaic and the NT. :)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/tentmaker/posts/10160362643786539/?comment_id=10160372808026539&reply_comment_id=10160372844351539¬if_id=1679003919498344¬if_t=group_comment_mention
"who claim they will not be fire for eternity... do not follow the Bible"
In chapter 4, "What did the early Church teach?" re: the afterlife fate of the wicked, this book says Alexandria, Caesarea, Antioch, and Eastern Syria believed in ultimate restoration, while Asia Minor was annihilationist, and Northern Africa adhered to never-ending torture:
_Heaven's Doors: Wider Than You Ever Believed!_ (2017), page 39 by George W. Sarris
https://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Doors-Wider-Than-Believed/dp/0980085322/
"not shown a single truth to your claim about Daniel and Revelation have been fulfilled"
Do you think this happened and is happening?:
Daniel 2 (ESV)
https://biblehub.com/esv/daniel/2.htm
32 The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze,
33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found.
But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
....
43 As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,
45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.
A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."
"When did the 2 witnesses show up? Who were the 2 witnesses?"
I looked at Rev 11 in
http://dukhrana.com/crawford/
and I think that "2 witnesses" is better rendered as 'My 2nd witness.'
That 2nd witness was Jesus the son of Ananus.
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-11-a-preterist-commentary-who-are-the-two-witnesses/#easy-footnote-bottom-9-130
....Jesus the son of Ananus. The following is written about him in _The Wars of the Jews_:
[T]here was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for everyone to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud,
"A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegroom and the bride, and a voice against this whole people!"
This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say anything for himself, or anything peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was,
"Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"
And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him who he was, and whence he came, and why he uttered such words; he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.
Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow,
"Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"
Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force,
"Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!"
And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.^9 [9: Josephus _The Wars of the Jews_ 6.5.3.
///////////////////////////////////////////
"So soon come to pass, what is soon? Is it a day a month, a year, 100 years, 1000 years, or 3000 years?"
Do you think "'soon' = 1k years'" fits/ works/ makes sense in any of the passages below?
τάχει (tachei) 8 Occurrences
https://biblehub.com/greek/tachei_5034.htm
Luke 18:8 N-DNS
NAS: justice for them quickly. However,
Acts 12:7 N-DNS
NAS: Get up quickly. And his chains
INT: Rise up in haste And fell off
Acts 22:18 N-DNS
NAS: out of Jerusalem quickly, because
INT: go away with speed out of Jerusalem
Acts 25:4 N-DNS
NAS: was about to leave shortly.
INT: was about in quickness to set out
Romans 16:20 N-DNS
NAS: The God of peace will soon crush Satan
1 Timothy 3:14 N-DNS
INT: you in short time
Revelation 1:1 N-DNS
NAS: must soon take place;
INT: take place in quickness and he signified [it]
Revelation 22:6 N-DNS
NAS: the things which must soon take place.
INT: come to pass in quickness
ταχὺ (tachy) 12 Occurrences
https://biblehub.com/greek/tachy_5035.htm
Matthew 5:25 Adv
NAS: Make friends quickly with your opponent
Matthew 28:7 Adv
NAS: Go quickly and tell His disciples
Matthew 28:8 Adv
NAS: the tomb quickly with fear
KJV: they departed quickly from
Mark 9:39 Adv
NAS: and be able soon afterward to speak evil
INT: and be able readily to speak evil of me
Luke 15:22 Adv
NAS: to his slaves, 'Quickly bring
INT: servants of him quickly Bring out robe
John 11:29 Adv
NAS: it, she got up quickly and was coming
KJV: [that], she arose quickly, and
Revelation 2:16 Adv
NAS: I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war
Revelation 3:11 Adv
NAS: I am coming quickly; hold fast what
KJV: I come quickly: hold that fast
Revelation 11:14 Adv
NAS: woe is coming quickly.
Revelation 22:7 Adv
INT: Behold I am coming quickly Blessed [is] he who
Revelation 22:12 Adv
NAS: I am coming quickly, and My reward
Revelation 22:20 Adv
NAS: I am coming quickly. Amen.
KJV: Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so,
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Soon, the most imprecise word that is used, but come to pass is all future events. Yet the left hates that it means the future, for they always try to claim it already happened"
R.C. Sproul was a preterist. Do you consider him part of "the left"?
The Preterist Approach to Revelation, by Keith Mathison
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/preterist-approach-revelation-unfolding-biblical-eschatology
When misguided criticisms, such as the one above, are set aside and the case for a basically preterist approach is objectively considered on its own merits, it is seen to be quite strong. ....
Secondly, when the genre of the book is taken into consideration, it provides strong evidence for a basically preterist approach to the book. The book is a prophecy (Rev. 1:3; Rev. 19:10; Rev. 22:7, 10, 18, 19). .... Many of the Old Testament prophecies deal with impending judgments upon either Israel or Judah or the nations that oppressed Israel. They also contain glimpses of ultimate future restoration. In short, we take a basically preterist approach to the Old Testament prophetic books, recognizing that they speak largely of impending events, yet also deal at times with the distant future.^16 Given that this is the way in which the Old Testament prophetic books are approached, it seems that our presumption should be in favor of the same basic approach to the prophetic book of Revelation.
....
When the genre, the statements of the book itself, and the larger biblical context are taken into consideration, a basically preterist approach to the book emerges as the most appropriate approach to take.^17
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
What if anything in Daniel 9:24+ do you think happened?
Daniel 9 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/bsb/daniel/9.htm
24 Seventy weeks^e
[e: Or Seventy sevens ; also twice in verse 25 and once in verse 26]
are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.^f
[f: Or _the Holy of Holies_ or _the Most Holy One_ ; literally _the Most Holy_]
25 Know and understand this:
From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah,^g
[g: Or _the Anointed One_; also in verse 26]
the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.
26 Then after the sixty-two weeks^h
[h: Hebrew _Then after sixty-two sevens_]
the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.
Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.
27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,^i
[i: Or _for one seven_; similarly again in this verse]
but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,^j
[j: Literally _And on the wing (will come) the abomination that causes desolation_, or _And on the wing of abominations (will come) one who causes desolation_,]
until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.^k"
[k: Literally _until the decreed consummation is poured out upon (him who) is desolate_.]
"When did God destroy the forces of evil and usher in his divine kingdom on earth?"
I assume "the forces of evil" includes the devil.
The devil and his angels won't be destroyed. Instead, they'll be converted, and will once again worship God.
Within the last decade, at-least 2 dark angels have returned to following God. Eventually, the devil will as well.
"and usher in his divine kingdom on earth"
Remind me, if you would: what's the basis for thinking that God would "usher in his divine kingdom on earth"?
John 18:36 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/john/18-36.htm
Yeshua said to him,
"My Kingdom is not from this world;
if my Kingdom were of this world,
my servants would be fighting that
I would not have been delivered up to the Judeans,
but now my Kingdom is not from here."
"a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the Parousia failed to materialize as Jesus and Paul and the early Christians expected"
Jesus didn't fit the mold his students were expecting the Messiah to be.
"failed to materialize as Jesus... expected"
What exactly did Jesus expect?
its a difficult one but Jesus HAS returned in the hearts of millions and will return sometime in the future in the clouds.
Quote from: rosered on February 08, 2019, 12:32:25 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on February 08, 2019, 12:19:49 PM
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
I believe we have to quit looking at mans witness and Look to GOD for our unmovable witness
mankind makes us doubt and confuses us all , puts up stumbling blocks along the way of our race set before us , but if your heart becomes pure innocent , like a little childs , so curious and teachable and willing to obey , to actually know GODS DESIRES , just ask Him over and over again to show you the way and truth and life .
God promises to fill us with more and more knowledge and love for Him...... to know God is to love Him , the knowledge that puffs up one against another is forbidden fruit though , we have to be humbled , God rebukes and scourges every child received into His kingdom / realm for the greater good of all as ONE and One for all .
amen
_Documents of the Primitive Church_ by Charles Cutler Torrey (1941), 309pp., on 241-242
https://archive.org/details/documentsofprimi0000torr/page/240/mode/1up
....the fact is of no little importance that we have here, in plain words, an example of the early Christian assertion that the day of verbal inspiration had returned. The claim that John is an inspired prophet and that his book is holy scripture is as clear and emphatic as any words can make it. This brings the date of the book within narrow limits. The absurdity of supposing that this Aramaic document claiming Jewish canonicity could have been put forth after its doctrine had been officially pronounced damnable heresy is obvious. It certainly was published before the year 80. But this is not all; a date before the year 70 is plainly indicated. If the book had been written between 70 and 80 there certainly would have been in it some allusion to the great catastrophe. Silence in regard to it, in view of the author's intense interest in the holy city, is simply inconceivable.
Moreover, the date cannot have been much _before_ 70. The theology of the book has advanced some distance beyond that of our earliest Christian writings. As Swete remarks, pp. cliv f.,
"No one who comes to the Apocalypse fresh from the study of the Gospels and Epistles can fail to recognize that he has passed into another atmosphere.... The Christ of the Apocalypse is the Christ of the Gospels, but a change has passed over Him which is beyond words."
The Church doctrine has progressed.
It is to be observed how the results thus reached, a date shortly before the year 70, confirms the explicit statement of the author of Rev., that he wrote in the time of the sixth emperor before the seventh had come to the throne; that is, in the year 68.
The fact has already been emphasized, that the terror of the Beast is over all the latter half of the book. The horrible scenes of the year 64, in Rome, are fresh in mind. There is no need to conjecture what the steadfast Christians would be called upon to face, on the return of the Beast. The farther away from Nero's reign the book is dated, the more incomprehensible is the amount of space given to this apprehension.
A most important passage, truly decisive in view of all the other evidence, is the beginning (the first two verses) of chapter 11, where John is commanded to take a reed (Ezek. 40:3 ff.) and measure the temple and the altar; but not to measure the court of the Gentiles, symbolic of the tribulation still to be endured. Jerusalem and the temple are standing, the armies of Titus have not yet entered the city. This was written before the year 70....
"The word in that verse should not be translated world. NASB, HCSB, NIV, and others got it right.
The Greek word in that verse is not world (kosmos) it's oikoumene (in habited land/Roman empire)
Augustus did tax the whole (kosmos) just the Roman empire (oikoumene).
Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel was preached throughout the oikoumene, Mt 24:14, it did and the end came. Revelation is describing that end of the old covenant system that was vanishing away before the consummation of the new. Heb 8:13, 9:8, Luk 21:20-22, Dan 12:7."
It seems to me that the 'great white throne judgment' of Revelation 20:11-15 is an elaboration of Daniel 12:1-4, 13.
It's already happened, before the end of AD 70.
Samuel G. Dawson, _The Resurrection: Israel's Old Testament Hope in Chronological Order_ (2018), 151pp., on 77, 78
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Israels-Testament-Chronological-Order/dp/1720807086/
The first correction is that the resurrection is predominantly an Old Testament subject, and the New Testament's teaching of the resurrection is based squarely on the Old.
You may not have known that.
I had been studying the Bible seriously for nearly four decades before I realized it.
...
First, the death the resurrection is concerned with is not biological death, but spiritual, the death that Adam died in the garden.
Second, the resurrection was not from biological death but from spiritual.
Rather than the resurrection occurring at the end of time, both the prophets and Paul taught that the resurrection took place at the end of the Mosaic age, when the Old Covenant heaven and earth passed away, and Israel's capital of Jerusalem and her temple were destroyed.
...
Those resurrected in AD 70 were Old Covenant saints from hades.
Since then, when Christians die biologically, they don't go to hades, but go directly to be with Christ, as John said in Rev. 14.13...
Revelation 14:13 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-13.htm
Then I heard a voice from heaven say,
"Write this:
Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit,
"they will rest from their labor,
for their deeds will follow them."
Daniel 12 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/daniel/12.htm
1 'And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head,
who is standing up for the sons of thy people,
and there hath been a time of distress,
such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time,
and at that time do thy people escape,
every one who is found written in the book.
2 'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake,
some to life age-during,
and some to reproaches-- to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse,
and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever.
4 And thou, O Daniel,
hide the things,
and seal the book till the time of the end,
many do go to and fro,
and knowledge is multiplied.'
...
13 And thou, go on to the end,
then thou dost rest,
and dost stand in thy lot at the end of the days.'
A Preterist Commentary on Revelation 20: Summary and Highlights
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-20-a-preterist-commentary/
In this Preterist commentary on Revelation 20, compelling historical evidence is presented showing that the thousand year reign was literally one thousand years long and the Gog mentioned in this chapter is the literal, historical Gog of Turkey mentioned in Biblical history.
The Millennium is NOT an end time prophecy! (See A Rebuttal of the Forty-Year Millennium.)
The Millennium began in A.D. 70 and is thus the first thousand years of the Messianic kingdom which is the New Covenant, the Age to Come and the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22.
During the thousand years after the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, Palestine- and especially Jerusalem- grew to become almost exclusively Christian.
Biblical Gog is in Turkey.
Interestingly, in A.D. 1071-- ONE THOUSAND YEARS AFTER THE FALL OF JERUSALEM IN A.D. 70-- the Turks (LITERAL GOG) conquered Palestine and incited the Crusades.
Furthermore, in literal fulfillment of Revelation 20:9 eyewitnesses to the First Crusade recorded Christians launching firebrands into Muslim-occupied Jerusalem literally fulfilling the fire from heaven mentioned in Revelation 20:9.
During this same war, the Muslim Turks surrounded Crusader-occupied Antioch.
And amidst this siege an eye-witness said that fire from heaven fell upon the camp of the Seljuk Turks besieging the city:
"There appeared a fire in the sky, coming from the west, and it approached and fell upon the Turkish army, to the great astonishment of our men [the Crusaders inside Antioch] and of the Turks also.
In the morning the Turks, who were all scared by the fire, took flight in panic."1
Here we see how Gog and Magog
"marched across the breath of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.
But fire came down from heaven and devoured them." (Revelation 20:9)
https://vikingmac.wordpress.com/2020/07/27/preterist-eschatology/
The Anti-Christ 666 Beast, was Nero Caesar.
Nero claimed to be the Sun God Apollo.
In 66AD, the Jews revolted against Rome and coined their own money.
The Greek word translated as mark (of the beast), χάραγμα, also means stamped money, coin or the impress on the coin, hence, "no one buys or sells without the money of the beast."
NT scholar Craig C. Hill suggests that the mark symbolized the all-embracing economic power of Rome, whose very coinage bore the emperor's image and conveyed his claims to divinity (e.g., by including the sun's rays in the ruler's portrait).
Christians from the 1st century refused to carry, look at, or manufacture coins bearing any sort of idolatrous image. It had become increasingly difficult for Christians to function in a world in which public life, including the economic life of the trade guilds, required participation in idolatry.
A Charagma, (χάραγμα-- meaning 'mark, stamp, sign, etc..') was the Greek word used in Revelation 13:16, and had been attributed to the imperial seal of the Roman Empire that was used on official documents during the 1st and 2nd centuries.
In the reign of Emperor Decius (249-251 AD), those who did not possess the certificate of sacrifice to Caesar (Libellus, which you'd receive after burning a pinch of incense and declaring that 'CAESAR IS LORD') could not pursue trades, a prohibition that goes back to Nero Caesar (54-68 AD).
The significance of this imperial seal had been paralleled to Revelation 13:17.
Adela Yarbro Collins further denotes that the refusal to use Roman coins resulted in the condition where "no man might buy or sell."
A similar view is offered by Craig R. Koester,
"As sales were made, people used coins that bore the images of Rome's gods and emperors.
Thus each transaction that used such coins was a reminder that people were advancing themselves economically by relying on political powers that did not recognize the true God."
His name also added up to 616 in Latin, transliterated into Hebrew, which was the number for the Beast in St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate version.
...
If it was a tattooing or a branding that is meant by the Mark of the Beast, this would not be the first time that Israelites had this happen to them.
For example, 3rd Maccabees 2 says that when Ptolemy Philopator conquered the Jews, he forced the survivors to be branded with the sign of his religion.
His edict said this:
"...those who are registered are also to be branded on their bodies by fire with the ivy-leaf symbol of Dionysus" (3 Mac 2:29).
Also, Caesar's own soldiers voluntarily branded themselves with his name or his symbol as a mark of loyalty, submission, and belonging.
Barclay speaks of evidence that soldiers were branded on the hand with the name of their general.
These marks are generally called stigmata.
Aelian (Claudius Aelianus, born c. 170AD, Praeneste [now Palestrina, Italy]-- died c. 235AD), says that soldiers bear their stigmata on their hands: and Ambrose goes onto say that soldiers are signed with the name of their general.
Slavery in Rome existed early on in its developing stages.
For example, in the campaign against the Gauls (59 to 51 BC) it is reported that Julius Caesar and his army captured over a million people and turned them into slaves.
Roman slave-masters would use a hot branding tool to imprint their name into the FOREHEADS of their slaves.
New slave recruits all the way to gladiators in gladiator schools had Roman tattoos (stigma, from where the English word stigmatized derives) applied as an identifying mark on the face, legs and hands.
After Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, a law was passed in 319AD that made it illegal for slave-masters to brand their slaves on the face and instead had to put their mark (hot branded tattoo) on the hands and legs.
Revelation 20
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-20-a-preterist-commentary/
Verses 11-15 describe the Great White Throne of Judgment.
Here God sits on His throne and judges the righteous and casts the wicked into the lake of fire (v. 15).
This judgment scene is also predicted in Matthew 25.
In Matthew 25 Jesus comes in His glory with His mighty angels at the Parousia and sits on His throne (Mt 25:31).
Jesus then separates the righteous (sheep) from the wicked (goats) while sentencing the wicked "to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Mt 25:46)
An identical judgment scene is depicted in Revelation 20:11-15 where the wicked are also judged by God and "thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)
These two judgment scenes took place in A.D. 70 at the climax of the Parousia.
But then there?s ? Daniel 7 and also 2 compared as to their conclusions ?
7 ? While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three (no one sees it? but the 3 uprooted powers british, spanish and french interests.. and the new little horn that kind of(?) came up in a cluster of nations, Rev.12:14, the chapter, R.12 being a stand alone insert and one of 3 tellings of the revelation vision) three of the first horns were uprooted before it.(As it emerged and grew.) This horn had (develops) eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully (an oFFice it emerges from pinpointed by Rev.13:13, the event not yet? pinpointing a person).
9 And as I looked,
?thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat (?all the world is a stage? - Shakespeare)
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 ?Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time. ?mortal survivors of the totally man done apicalypse)
13 ?In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
15 ?I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.
?So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 ?The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. 18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever?yes, for ever and ever.?
19 Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws (iron/bronze is roman/greek roots) ?the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell?the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
26 But the COURT will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
Dan.2 Nebuchadnezzar?s dream
36 ..This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
39 ?After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron?for iron breaks and smashes everything?and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay (not western) and partly of iron(western), so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay (unholy collusion) 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
44 ?In the time of - those - kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an - end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of The Rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands?a Rock that breaks the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. (Aka, mankind?s world kingdoms gone and no more.)
Other verses, wars ceased and no more.
Matthew 13:30 is logically Rev.16:13-16
The three mentions of lake of fire are at huge, fiery, earthly events.
Prophecy is fulfilled in scopes, smaller to full scope, like a wheel within a wheel..?
Daniel 12:11,12.. A math problem! About the final abomination that desolates, there?s a treaty (Dn.9:27) and in the middle is broken against Israel (LUKE 19:41,44?!) then3.5 yrs plus 30 days later is set up the final abomination that desolates, this time on the human temple(s) meant for God?s Spirit/Presence? 1Cor.3:16) Math problem, the last - quote, ten days, Rev.2:10 escalating to most critical?
https://x.com/David32856757/status/1880358175972683818
"he affirmed everything in the OT"
Including the OT's saying that a New Covenant would replace the Old Covenant?
Jeremiah 31
https://biblehub.com/niv/jeremiah/31.htm
31 "The days are coming," declares the Lord,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the Lord.
33 "This is the covenant I will make
with the people of Israel after that time,"
declares the Lord.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the Lord.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
=========
"Jesus... proclaimed that all OT Law would still be required until earth passed away"
"Heaven and earth" _did_ pass away.
Revelation 21:1a (NKJV)
https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/21.htm
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth,
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. ...
Jesus prophesied that people would [Luke 21:27, 32]"see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
Did that prophecy come to pass?
Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
*6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.*
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
*20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.*
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
*24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.*
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
*27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.*
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
*32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.*
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
=============
"Revelation is referring to the future"
Including here?:
Revelation 12 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/12.htm
7 Then war broke out in heaven.
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough,
and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down--
that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,
who leads the whole world astray.
He was hurled to the earth,
and his angels with him.
========
As you may know, the temple in Jerusalem got destroyed in AD 70.
"Revelation is referring to the future"
Including here?:
Revelation 11:1 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-1.htm
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told,
"Go and measure the temple of God and the altar,
and count the number of worshipers there.
========
"is referring to the future"
Did this happen?: "you have come to Mount Zion, and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem"
Hebrews 12 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/12.htm
22 But you have come to Mount Zion,
and the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to myriads of angels,
23 and to the assembly,
to the church of the firstborn having been enrolled in the heavens,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of the righteous having been perfected,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the sprinkling of blood,
speaking better things than that of Abel.
25 Take heed lest you refuse the One speaking.
For if they did not escape,
having refused the One divinely instructing them on earth,
much less we, turning away from the One from the heavens,
26 whose voice shook the earth at that time;
but now He has promised, saying,
"Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
27 And this, "Yet once more," signifies the removing of the things being shaken,
as having been created,
so that the things not being shaken should remain.
28 Therefore, receiving a kingdom not to be shaken,
we may have grace, by which we may serve God well pleasingly,
with fear and reverence.
29 For also, our God is a consuming fire.
========
"Revelation is referring to the future"
Has the child mentioned here been born yet?:
Revelation 12 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/12.htm
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven:
an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth,
so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who
"will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."
And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
...
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth,
he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
...
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman
and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring--
those who keep God?s commands
and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
================================
"Revelation is referring to the future"
Regarding
[Rev 17:10]"five [kings] have already fallen, one [king] still lives,"
have any of those kings ruled yet?
Revelation 17 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2017&version=NABRE
9 Here is a clue for one who has wisdom.
The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits.
They also represent seven kings:
10 five have already fallen, one still lives,
and the last has not yet come,
and when he comes he must remain only a short while.
========
https://x.com/David32856757/status/1880305905096441904
Is there a "new Jerusalem" yet?
Isaiah 65 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/65.htm
17 "See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
Isaiah 65:18 (Good News)
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/65-18.htm
Be glad and rejoice forever in what I create.
The new Jerusalem I make
will be full of joy,
and her people will be happy.
Revelation 21 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/21.htm
1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people,
and he will dwell with them.
They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said,
"I am making everything new!" ...
9 One of the seven angels
who had the seven bowls
full of the seven last plagues
came and said to me,
"Come, I will show you the bride,
the wife of the Lamb."
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit
to a mountain great and high,
and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God. ...
22 I did not see a temple in the city,
because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it,
for the glory of God gives it light,
and the Lamb is its lamp.
24 The nations will walk by its light,
and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
25 On no day will its gates ever be shut,
for there will be no night there.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
I think the Revelation vision is told 3times, joining at trumpet 7. I think the seal descriptions at the beginning of the vision, as their full effects, veils a lot of the vision.
Revelation 12 is the middle of the two tellings of the vision
Verse 13:13 was by an office, was the first seal6 (6:12-17) event ?> 7:1,3
The number 6 is the number of man, who?s made up od carbon, which has 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons. So, i.e. apocalypse is all man done, yes even the bowls.. Isaiah 24:20, Rev.10:4? (over -n- out).. yes I counted, first was 13:13/ first seal 6 event.
Rev.12 ?A great sign, a virgin conceives a manchild/Son of man, whom Satan tried to destroy through Herod the Great.. but instead (mission accomplished and) now he?s back at the right hand of God.. Satan was enraged so 70 CE, and dispersion/fleeing. A larger, full scope version/culmination is future. There was war in heaven and Satan&co. are no longer allowed access to heaven.. And enraged again he pursues, persecutes, inquisitions the woman/the faith but she/it is given to two wings of an eagle to fly (sail?) to a new place, safe from the face of the adversary for a 3.5 division of time (here, centuries) - roughly 1620 to 1970, when (verse 15) the dragon released a flood (Strong Delusion) in order to was the woman/the faith from off the earth, but yhe earth will swallow the flood ..$ity babble on and on falls, and widespread drought? Then Satan turns his attention (more fully) toward the test of the woman?s children, who have the commandments of God, (by then?) have the testimony of Jesus, Mt.23:39.
Tge three tellings meet back up at Armageddon battle, concurrent with the seventh trumpet?s sounding ..within which are the fast occurring, simultaneous? bowls. Is.24:20, Rev.10:4.
Tge duration of the notorious triple 6 - Dan.12:11-12 with Luke 29:41,44(?) and 1 Corinthians 3:26 (and Rev.2:10, escalating to most critical the last ?ten days?.
..have to proofread later :icon_jokercolor:
Revelation is a hard book to understand.
Jay Rogers, _In the Days of These Kings: The Book of Daniel in Preterist Perspective_ (2024)
https://www.amazon.com/Days-These-Kings-Preterist-Perspective/dp/B0DBFD5HQT/
Jay Rogers, _The Prophecy of Daniel in Preterist Perspective: The Easy Parts and the Hard Parts_ (2024)
https://www.amazon.com/Prophecy-Daniel-Preterist-Perspective-Parts/dp/B0DBPXPHTF/
Milton Terry (1840-1914), _The Apocalypse of John: A Preterist Commentary on the Book of Revelation_
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-John-Preterist-Commentary-Revelation/dp/1734362057/
=========================
"The new Heaven... In due time, when the multitudes out of every generation which I will gather into it, are organized, and operate as one Divine Energy, its influence will reach to the ends of sin, and to the depths of Hell"
"the New Heaven founded by Christ must have been growing by millions yearly, century after century.
And its energies, abilities, and organizations for good, must be growing and perfecting as rapidly as its population is multiplying"
_Infoldings and Unfoldings of the Divine Genius in Nature and Man_ by John Pulsford (1887), 108pp., on 37-40
https://www.amazon.com/Infoldings-unfoldings-divine-genius-nature/dp/B013HXXNWI/
https://archive.org/details/infoldingsunfold00puls/page/n1/mode/2up
IX. The new Heaven, of which I am the Foundation and the Beginning, is of necessity _central_.
It is central because it comprehends more than any former Heaven ; and will be more potent for good.
In due time, when the multitudes out of every generation which I will gather into it, are organized, and operate as one Divine Energy, its influence will reach to the ends of sin, and to the depths of Hell.
Such is the Father's plan for His House, that in its centre every virtue and peculiarity should be represented, and that it should have power over all evil, and bear an equal relationship to His fallen and unfallen races.
X. We know not at what rate other heavens are growing : many of them may be comparatively stationary.
But the New Heaven founded by Christ must have been growing by millions yearly, century after century.
And its energies, abilities, and organizations for good, must be growing and perfecting as rapidly as its population is multiplying.
If young men and women could be got to dwell upon it, nothing is so fitted to kindle their lofty and pure enthusiasm as the prospect of emigration to this Kingdom of kingdoms,-- the Kingdom of the Incarnation in redeemed humanity.
The highest places and honours of the political world are not worthy of the soul's enthusiasm ; but the final kingdom of humanity is quite worthy of the soul's loftiest passion.
XI. The kingdoms of Europe, including our own, and indeed the kingdoms of the whole world, are in ceaseless effort to make themselves invulnerable ; and at the same time are shaking with fear ; because they are aiming at the impossible, namely, to make kingdoms secure, which in their character and order are utterly opposed to the Kingdom of the Human race which the Father of men is forming in the heavens.
It is worse than useless to shirk the fact that the kings of the earth and the rulers are not moving in unison with, but against "The Lord and His Christ."
But because He is Man, according to God, Ideal Man, and Ideal King, His throne and the Kingdom which is grown round about His throne, disturb, and will disturb, and eventually overcome, all antagonistic rule and authority.
The myriads whom He has drawn into sympathy with Himself, constitute the only "Kingdom which cannot be moved."
This is the Kingdom which all Christ-lovers are receiving down into their souls ; and which makes us calm and confident amid all the heavings and convulsions of the nations.
The Divine human race is destined to break up, supersede, and supplant the undivine race.
Every man and woman added to the Kingdom increases its power ; and increases, likewise, the momentum with which its power moves downward into the souls of men, and into the air of the world.
XII. This new Kingdom of the Race growing in the Heavens can do nothing less than subdue the world to itself.
Think of the incalculable number of men and women who are already in it ; and who, from the depth of their sympathy with Christ, make one Power : think farther, that in every one of them, the immutable Nature of God is built up ; and you will not be able to doubt that in the end the kingdoms of this world will become one Brotherhood of men under God.
Wherefore, we pray you to foresee the decreed end to which things are coming ; and draw down the elements of your new, immutable, all victorious humanity into your souls.
You cannot belong to the Divine kingdom of our race nor go into it, unless first the Kingdom comes into you.
Love, Incorruption, Certainty, Joy, Eternity, are in the Kingdom : receive its descending Power.
Inbreathe the Divine Man's Breath, and you are His.
Remember His words : "I will come and receive you to Myself."
Receiving you to Himself means your entrance into your own home and among your own people, in the midst of the men and women, who like you having loved, lived, suffered, and died, on earth, have found death to be a birth into the Divine and Eternal human life.
XIII. ...
Keith Giles, _Sola Deus: What If God Is All of Us?_ (2023), 149pp., on 99-100
https://www.amazon.com/Sola-Deus-What-God-All/dp/B0CL5FXB6H/
My conclusion [in _Jesus Unexpected_] was that everyone would eventually come face-to-face with Christ because we would all die in a few short years, and in that way, we would all live forever in Christ's Kingdom which was beyond space and time.
But a few friends pushed back and asked me to add an epilogue that gave us some hope for an eventual New Heaven and New Earth here on this planet.
So, I thought about it and decided that, sure, why not, I could envision a potential outcome where God's Kingdom plan finally comes to be on this planet and, eventually, at some point in the future, physical humanity comes to embody the reality of Christ's Kingdom here.
Yet, I still can't understand why so many of us insist on the physical fulfillment of such things.
As if being alive in the presence of Christ is only "real" if we're all in physical bodies of flesh and bone.
I... don't understand that.
What is "real" is most likely so far beyond our ability to comprehend or imagine that, in comparison, this physical reality we're in now is most likely about as "real" as a child's crayon drawing hanging on someone's refrigerator.
"It's been 2000 more years of murder covenants ever since then.
That does not fully yet fulfill the fullness of Isaiah 2:4"
Agreed, if one is looking at the earth.
However, in the New Jerusalem there isn't any war,
and peoples from various nations are totally at peace with each other.
Isaiah 2:4 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/2-4.htm
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
Revelation 21 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/21.htm
1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people,
and he will dwell with them.
They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death'
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away."
John 18:36 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/john/18-36.htm
Yeshua said to him,
"My Kingdom is not from this world;
if my Kingdom were of this world,
my servants would be fighting that
I would not have been delivered up to the Judeans,
but now my Kingdom is not from here."
Do you see any flaws in this analysis?:
typo fix
https://x.com/christfulfilled/status/1894886801921523911
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1894886801921523911.html
We are not in the last days,
and will never be in the last days.
Many people do not know about the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32),
let alone its implications for our understanding of NT eschatology.
Let's break it down a little bit: [thread pic]
Before the Israelites entered the promised land, Moses spoke this prophetic Song to them.
In the song, Moses warns the people against turning to idols and foretells of a future generation in Israel-- a "perverse and crooked generation" (v. 5)-- who will be utterly corrupt, faithless, perverse, and adulterous.
In the song, God says that he will bring Israel's "latter end" (Deut. 32:29) upon this corrupt generation.
He will avenge the blood of his servants on apostate Israel, and the nations, together with the angels of heaven (an LXX tradition preserves this while the MT erased it because divine council theology made some Israelite monotheists uncomfortable), will sing with God's people for his saving acts (Deut. 32:43).
Jesus often referred to his generation by quoting the Song of Moses.
He called his generation a "perverse generation" (Matt. 17:17), directly quoting the Song of Moses.
He called it an "adulterous generation," (Matt. 12:39) echoing God's warning to Moses that Israel would play the harlot in the last days (Deut. 31:16).
And significantly, Jesus told the Jewish leadership of his day that the righteous blood of all the righteous ever shed on earth would fall upon them, in "this generation," in the desolation of their house (Matt. 23:34-38).
Without a doubt, the generation foretold by the Song of Moses had arrived.
Further, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost, Peter pleaded with his audience in Jerusalem to "save" themselves from "this crooked generation," again quoting the Song of Moses (Acts 2:40).
Two of the main themes of the book of Acts is the Jews [better: Yehudians] shedding the blood of Christians, as well as the Jews [better: Yehudians] making the Temple and nation their idol.
The Song foretold that in the latter end, Israel's final generation would be more idolatrous than any previous one, and shed innocent blood.
In Revelation 19, after the fall of Mystery Babylon-- the city guilty of Jesus' blood (Rev. 11:8), the blood of all prophets, and the blood of Jesus' apostles (Rev. 18:24)-- the angels of heaven sing praises to God, and they invite God's people to do the same.
Heaven even quotes the Song of Moses-- "HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER" (v. 2)-- to speak of the vindication God has wrought on behalf of his persecuted people.
And just like the Song said, the nations (Rev. 7:9), the righteous within Israel (Rev. 14:1ff), and the angels of heaven (Rev. 19:1ff) all worship God for what he has done in enacting his judgment on the great "harlot."
God has brought the "latter end" upon her.
What this means:
-Mystery Babylon was first-century Jerusalem
-We are not, and will never be in the last days. They have come and gone.
-The wedding of the Lamb has come, which means the kingdom and new creation have come in glory.
They are not physical realities, but the new covenant world brought to reality through the finished work of Christ.
-The Song of Moses is the template for NT eschatology.
Do you see any flaws in this analysis?:
https://x.com/christfulfilled/status/1810761194724270208
The internal and external evidence for a pre-70 dating of the Revelation is extremely strong.
The traditional external evidence for the post-70 dating is convincing at first but upon scrutiny isn't as strong as it first seems.
Every testimony of a post-70 dating after Irenaeus got their information from him. Victorinus in the 4th century AD did not have magical abilities that enabled him to date the book accurately, nor did he have divine knowledge on the matter. He was holding up what was the traditional, and I would add reasonable, view to hold. This tradition originated with Irenaeus, a 2nd century Church writer. To be brief, there is a lot of debate over the translation of Irenaeus' words. Obviously, the common English translation is to render him as saying that "John saw" the Apocalypse during the reign of Domitian. But there is linguistic grounds for the view that really, it should be rendered that John, the writer of Apocalypse, had last been seen during the reign of Domitian. I hold to this view. But even if Irenaeus did say that John saw the vision under Domitian's reign, that doesn't negate the stronger internal and external evidence for pre-70 dating. If Irenaeus did express a post-70 dating view, his would be the only unique and independently attested testimony to that effect (this isn?t even taking into account that Irenaeus was wrong on several other key historical data, such as Jesus? age when he died). The contents of the book of Revelation and other external evidence strongly point to a pre-70 dating.
Internal evidence:
Martyr vindication. A common theme in the book is the hope [of] martyr vindication. Jesus said that all the martyrs in *human history*, beginning with Abel, and including the OT prophets, and his own future apostles and prophets, would be avenged in his generation at the fall of the Temple (Matthew 23).
Babylon. The description of Babylon fits 1st century Jerusalem as hand in glove. Segueing from martyr vindication, Babylon was the city guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on earth," which again, Jesus identified as Jerusalem in Matthew 23. A core theme of Revelation is the fall of this apostate, adulterous city (Rev. 6, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19). This strongly indicates to us that John wrote before this happened (unless we deny inspiration and the ability of a prophet from God to predict the future)
Temple still standing. In Revelation 11, the Jerusalem temple is depicted as still standing. This is impossible in a post-70 dating view.
John's Olivet discourse. The elements of Revelation are ultimately just an expanded version of the Olivet discourse accounts found in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The Olivet discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.
Relationship with Pre-70 apostolic letters. Revelation bares several key similarities with other apostolic written communications of the pre-70 period. For example, 1 Peter was written before AD 70 as the vast majority of people agree. John, writing to 7 premier churches in Asia minor, warned them of a coming "fiery trial" (Rev. 3:10). Peter, writing to the same exact churches (1Peter 1:1ff), comforted them and told them not to be alarmed about the "fiery trial" that *has already come upon them.* This strongly indicates Revelation was written before 1 Peter, thus before AD 70.
Israel's Festal Imagery in the book. Revelation is littered with allusions and echoes of Israel's rich festal calendar. One such allusion is the 144,000 redeemed saints of Israel being the "first fruits" redeemed by God from among men (Rev 14:1-5). They were the first generation of Christians, in other words. This precludes a post-70 dating. Not only that, but they are said to have gone through the "great tribulation" and have overcome the Beast and his image. Jesus posited the great tribulation for his own generation in Matthew 24, directly linking it to the fall of the city and the temple in AD 70. Why would John write about a generation of Christians from 30 years prior, saying they had overcome the beast and gone through the tribulation leading up to the fall of the Temple in AD 70 when those things had nothing to do with what was going on in AD 96?
External evidence:
1) You cited Victorinus. While he did take the late date view, he also acknowledged and even suggested the pre-70 date in his commentary. Again we must keep in mind the late date tradition was a single strand tradition that began with Irenaeus.
2) The Muratorian fragments contain a copy of Revelation from the 2nd century, which is highly suggestive the book was copied several times already and had already been in circulation for a while.
3) Clement of Alexandria (2nd century) said that many prominent church leaders believed Revelation was written under Nero.
4) While Eusebius accepted the Irenaeus tradition, he noted that many Christians believed Revelation was written under Claudius (AD 41-54).
5) Papyrus 115 contains a 3rd century copy of Revelation that says the number of the beast is 616, which seemingly confirms identification with Nero.
6) Revelation is a book of visions and prophecies concerning the fulfillment of the "mystery of God" that he spoke to his servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7). Jesus said that all the prophets had written would be fulfilled in his days (Luke 21:22).
"Internal evidence:
Martyr vindication.
A common theme in the book is the hope [of] martyr vindication.
Jesus said that all the martyrs in *human history*,
beginning with Abel, and including the OT prophets,
and his own future apostles and prophets,
would be avenged in his generation at the fall of the Temple (Matthew 23)."
> This does not support pre-70 composition.
> Martyrdom occurred, probably to a greater extent, post-70.
Do you think Jesus said this?:
Matthew 23 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/23.htm
34 Because of this, behold,
I send to you prophets
and wise _men_ and scribes.
Some of them you will kill and will crucify,
and _some_ of them you will flog in your synagogues,
and will persecute from town to town;
35 so that upon you shall come all _the_
righteous blood being poured out upon the earth,
from the blood of the righteous Abel
to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah,
whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 Truly I say to you,
all these things will come upon this generation.
"Babylon.
The description of Babylon fits 1st century Jerusalem as hand in glove.
Segueing from martyr vindication,
Babylon was the city guilty of 'all the righteous blood shed on earth,'
which again, Jesus identified as Jerusalem in Matthew 23.
A core theme of Revelation is the fall of this apostate, adulterous city (Rev. 6, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19).
This strongly indicates to us that John wrote before this happened
(unless we deny inspiration and the ability of a prophet from God to predict the future)"
> Rome is a much better candidate as a
> city guilty of all the righteous blood shed on earth.
Was Rome involved in:
"the blood of the righteous Abel"?
"the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah"?
Jesus-sent "wise _men_ and scribes... flog[ged] in... synagogues"?
"Temple still standing.
In Revelation 11, the Jerusalem temple is depicted as still standing.
This is impossible in a post-70 dating view.
John's Olivet discourse.
The elements of Revelation are ultimately just an expanded version of the Olivet discourse accounts found in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
The Olivet discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70."
> Revelation also describes the destruction of the temple,
> which is merely _vaticinium ex eventu_.
Which Revelation verse are you looking at?
In your view, when was this written?:
Revelation 11 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/bsb/revelation/11.htm
1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told,
"Go and measure the temple of God and the altar,
and count the number of worshipers there.
2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple.
Do not measure it,
because it has been given over to the nations,
and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.
Also, when was this written?:
Revelation 17:10 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/17-10.htm
They are also seven kings.
Five have fallen,
one is,
the other has not yet come;
but when he does come,
he must remain for only a little while.
> I don't deny inspiration or the ability of people
> to sometimes predict the future,
> but critical scholarship cannot merely presume this.
Are you aware of any instances of where:
Jesus successfully "predict[ed] the future"?
Daniel successfully "predict[ed] the future"?
Jesus make a prediction that turned out to be mistaken/ erroneous/ not-fulfilled?
Daniel make a prediction that turned out to be mistaken/ erroneous/ not-fulfilled?
Jesus is quoted as making an after-the-event 'prediction' about an event that had already occurred?
Daniel is quoted as making an after-the-event 'prediction' about an event that had already occurred?
"Relationship with Pre-70 apostolic letters. ...
For example, 1 Peter was written before AD 70 as the vast majority of people agree."
> The vast majority of critical scholars disagree.
"Israel's Festal Imagery in the book.
Revelation is littered with allusions and echoes of Israel's rich festal calendar. ..."
> Do you also date the Talmud to pre-70 CE?
=========================
Francis Gumerlock, _Revelation and the First Century (Preterist Interpretations of the Apocalypse in Early Christianity)_ (2012)
https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-Interpretations-Apocalypse-Christianity-2012-08-02/dp/B01K3KSXT6/
https://store.americanvision.org/collections/catalog/products/revelation-and-the-first-century
Among the many new insights gained in this book, you will read from many early and medieval Christians who believed:
. John wrote Revelation before A.D. 70
. "The hour of testing" (Rev 3:10) occurred immediately after the death of Nero
. The Emperor Titus was one of the horsemen of the Apocalypse
. The seal and trumpet judgments were fulfilled in the first century Roman-Judean war
. The Roman Emperor Nero was the beast of Revelation 13
. Nero's name was used in calculation of the number of the beast, 666
_New Testament Eschatology: What the Early Church Believed About Bible Prophecy_, formerly titled _The Early Church and the End of the World_
https://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-End-World/dp/0915815583/
https://store.americanvision.org/collections/catalog/products/new-testament-eschatology-what-the-early-church-believed-about-bible-prophecy
The evidence shows that many early church writers understood the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 to be the end of the Old Covenant world.
Do you see any flaws in this reasoning?:
Alex Polyak, _The End is Here: How the New Testament's Prophecies were Fulfilled_ (2024), 530pp., on 444
https://www.amazon.com/End-Here-Testaments-Prophecies-Fulfilled/dp/B0DMTZTFJM/
Second, if the temple/city had already been destroyed, John, the author of Revelation, would have said so!
The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was one of Jesus's most important and significant prophecies, so had it been fulfilled, John would have certainly mentioned it.
In fact, he likely would have touted the fulfillment as proof that Jesus was the prophet he claimed to be.
Just think about how many times the New Testament writers said things like,
"This was done in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy" (Matt. 12:17) and,
"This happened to fulfill what was said by the prophet" (Matt. 1:22).
John surely would have done the same kind of thing!
It's internally inconsistent to say that both
1) Jesus prophesied by around AD 30 what's prophesied in Matthew 24, and those prophecies were grossly mistaken,
and
2) Matthew 24 consist of remarks that were bogusly-ascribed to Jesus after AD 70.
https://ehrmanblog.org/was-jesus-a-false-prophet/
BDEhrman May 8, 2023 at 8:45 pm
Apart from the seven "undisputed" letters of Paul, all the books of the NT are generally thought to have been written after 70 CE;
intimations of the destruction of the temple can be found in all four Gospels; ...
BDEhrman May 5, 2023 at 2:17 pm
Jesus preached lots of things, based on many ideas, views, interpretations of Scripture, and so on;
one aspectd of that was a prediction that he got wrong.
I'd be OK probalby with saying he made a false prophecy...
Bertrand Russell, _Why I Am Not A Christian_
https://archive.org/details/why-i-am-not-a-christian/page/15/mode/2up?q=clouds
Page 16
... Historically it is quite doubtful whether Christ ever existed at all, and if He did we do not know anything about Him, so that I am not concerned with the historical question, which is a very difficult one.
I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospels, taking the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem to be very wise.
For one thing, He certainly thought that His second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time.
There are a great many texts that prove that.
He says, for instance, "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come."
Then He says, "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom";
and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed that His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living.
Rabbi David Blumofe, in
"Who is Jesus.? Dr Michael l brown vs Rabbi David Blumofe," 25:19+
https://youtu.be/M1L-YQDXxEY
Matthew 16:28 "There will be some of those who are standing here"--
this is Jesus saying this--
"who will not taste death until they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
In other words, they will not die until they see him coming again.
But it's been 2,000 years and he hasn't come-- I'm sure they're dead by now.
...
"this generation shall not pass until these things be fulfilled"--
and the generation certainly passed after two thousand years.
...
"Ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven"--
yet these priests were dead for at least nineteen hundred years.
hat tip
_The End is Here_, 2.
Are you aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?
Matthew liked to tout supposed fulfillments of prophecy:
"prophet" in KJV Matthew, with snips
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=prophet&begin=47&end=47&resultspp=100
added Matthew 13:14 after searching for "fulfilled" in KJV Matthew
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=fulfilled&begin=47&end=47&resultspp=100
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Matthew 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matthew 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
I'm unaware of any gospel writer touting the Temple's AD 70 destruction as having been a fulfillment of Jesus' saying the Temple would be utterly destroyed.
This despite Mathew, Luke, and John chalking up many events as somehow being fulfillments of prior writings and sayings.
If at the time of writing the gospels, the gospel writers didn't yet know of the Temple's AD 70 destruction, that would account for their failure to mention the Temple's destruction as a fulfillment of Jesus' saying it would be destroyed.
John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
"fulfilled" in KJV NT, augmented with "prophet," with snips
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=fulfilled&begin=47&end=73&resultspp=250
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=prophet&begin=47&end=73&resultspp=250
Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mark 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Acts 8
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. ...
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 15
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Acts 26
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
What if anything that's below did Jesus actually say?
Mark 14 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/14.htm
48 "Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus,
"that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me?
49 Every day I was with you,
teaching in the temple courts,
and you did not arrest me.
But the Scriptures must be fulfilled."
50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.
...
60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus,
"Are you not going to answer?
What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him,
"Are you the Messiah,
the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 "I am," said Jesus.
"And you will see the Son of Man
sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One
and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63 The high priest tore his clothes.
"Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked.
64 "You have heard the blasphemy.
What do you think?"
They all condemned him as worthy of death.
=====================
Mark 8 - Mark 9:1 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/8.htm
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/9.htm
27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi.
On the way he asked them,
"Who do people say I am?"
28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."
29 "But what about you?" he asked.
"Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered,
"You are the Messiah."
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things
and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law,
and that he must be killed
and after three days rise again.
32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter.
"Get behind me, Satan!" he said.
"You do not have in mind the concerns of God,
but merely human concerns."
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said:
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it,
but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world,
yet forfeit their soul?
37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation,
the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
9:1 And he said to them,
"Truly I tell you,
some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."
=====================
Mark 13 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/13.htm
1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him,
"Look, Teacher!
What massive stones!
What magnificent buildings!"
2 "Do you see all these great buildings?"
replied Jesus.
"Not one stone here will be left on another;
every one will be thrown down."
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple,
Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 "Tell us, when will these things happen?
And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
5 Jesus said to them:
"Watch out that no one deceives you.
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,'
and will deceive many.
7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars,
do not be alarmed.
Such things must happen,
but the end is still to come.
8 Nation will rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines.
These are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "You must be on your guard.
You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues.
On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial,
do not worry beforehand about what to say.
Just say whatever is given you at the time,
for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 "Brother will betray brother to death,
and a father his child.
Children will rebel against their parents
and have them put to death.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me,
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong?
let the reader understand?
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out.
16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now?
and never to be equaled again.
20 "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
21 At that time if anyone says to you,
'Look, here is the Messiah!' or,
'Look, there he is!'
do not believe it.
22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear
and perform signs and wonders
to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
23 So be on your guard;
I have told you everything ahead of time.
24 "But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26 "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect
from the four winds,
from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree:
As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out,
you know that summer is near.
29 Even so, when you see these things happening,
you know that it is near, right at the door.
30 Truly I tell you,
this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will never pass away.
32 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be on guard! Be alert!
You do not know when that time will come.
34 It's like a man going away:
He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task,
and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 "Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back?
whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.
36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.
37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
Quote
Are you aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?
I think you?re right no one touted it because it hadn?t happened yet.. the smaller, more immediate fulfillment. What I always think of is how John the Baptist said to the irreligious/political pharisees that the axe was already at the bottom of the tree, which is how a tree is axed.. you tap it first and then the first swing of the axe.. And that was roughly forty years before 70 a.d. /CE. (In the same way the pauSe in Rev.7 seems long to us.. no one sees because the seals are described at the beginning of the vision as their full and entire effects throughout the entire years of our Lord CE. Then the sixth seal and 7:1,3 become clearer? As the first fiery seal 6 event, which is also 13:13 but pinpoints an office not person (yet anyway). And 13:13 can be the first seal 6 event, (ch. 6:12-17) because the vision is told three times, 6:1-2 to 11:19; ch.12 w/ mt.23:39; and 13:1 to 19:11. Rejoining at the 7the trumpet. Which of course is the culmination of all the seals, especially seal 6 (seven thunders? yes I counted - rumbling, loud noise, sky rolling like a scroll, lightning, great hail. Rev.10:4 (ten four, over and out).
The higher moisture rises the greater and larger the hail.. thermonuclear lightning.. Now back to fiery 70 CE.. All of it, more than enough FIERY judgment, aka, consequences, results, God?s ?wrath? being cause and effect. And no one seems to see what a burning crucible this imperfrction/straying is. Ever had a compost pile? In a cartoon it would be portrayed with steam rising because it heats up. It?s a slow fade. Entropy. Hot flashes of life as we presently know it. The dis ease as part of the cure? God iS Life, the life force, and (quote) is Perfect so straying in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, which is this entropy, this slow gehenna ..that flares up into fiery judgments large and small, collective and individual.
So.. I figure the axe is at the root of the entire tree.. Dn.2:34,35. Then a millennial Sabbath rest from enmity.. then his fieRy final defeat after he gathers descendants of mortal survivors of the totally man done apocalypse to surround the millennial Jerusalem for war. This is where there is the second of three mentions of a lake of fire.. Think sparks when the axe strikes the root/trunk of the tree. First is at armageddon battle, last at the fieRy
palin/againgenesis Rev.21:1-5 and note in vs 5 the word things is inserted (to greek pas - all).
The millennial gathering to war is during first half of an “8th day” millennial day.
Back to first mention of lake of fire. Mt.13:30 is Rev.16:14-15-16 Logic!! Root word of which is logos. Also is Mt.25:1-13(10) to serving called reigning during the Lords long second advent, full scope version of His first so brief one? (Crowns of Life, not metal, the metals are mortal mankind’s empires, Dn.2:36-45; 7:7,19.
When in a parable wise virgins acted on the call to "come out to meet" the bridegroom, did the bridegroom:
leave the region?
accompany the welcoming party "to the wedding banquet"?
Matthew 25 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/25.htm
1 "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be
like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
...
5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 "At midnight the cry rang out:
'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
...
10 "But while they [the foolish virgins] were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived.
The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet.
And the door was shut.
======================
When "Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him," and Judeans accompanied Mary to Jesus, did Jesus:
leave the region?
accompany the welcoming party to the tomb of Lazarus?
John 11 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/john/11.htm
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days,
7 and then he said to his disciples,
"Let us go back to Judea."
...
17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.
18 Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem...
20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. ...
27 "Yes, Lord," she [Martha] replied, "I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
28 After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside.
"The Teacher is here," she said, "and is asking for you."
29 When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him.
30 Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him.
31 When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
...
34 "Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.
=======================
When Paul had not yet entered Rome, and some people traveled from Rome to meet him, did Paul:
leave the region?
accompany the welcoming party to Rome?
Acts 28 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/acts/28.htm
14 There we found some brothers and sisters who invited us to spend a week with them.
And so we came to Rome.
15 The brothers and sisters there had heard that we were coming,
and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to meet us.
At the sight of these people Paul thanked God and was encouraged.
16 When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him.
=======================
When "Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem" and a "great crowd"/ "many people" "took palm branches and went out to meet him," did Jesus:
eventually arrive at Jerusalem?
leave the area with the crowd, never making it to Jerusalem?
John 12 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/john/12.htm
12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem.
13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the king of Israel!" ...
18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign [of raising Lazarus from the dead], went out to meet him.
=======================
When "the Lord himself will come down from heaven," and "we who are still alive and are left" are "caught up together with" "the dead in Christ" "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," will Jesus:
leave earth?
accompany the welcoming party to earth?
1 Thessalonians 4 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/1_thessalonians/4.htm
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord?s word, we tell you that
we who are still alive,
who are left until the coming of the Lord,
will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever.
========================
hat tip
Barbara Rossing, _The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation_ (2004), 222pp., on 174-177
https://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Exposed-Message-Hope-Revelation/dp/0813343143/
Robert H. Gundry, _The Church and the Tribulation_ (1973), 224pp., on 187, 188
https://www.amazon.com/Church-Tribulation-Biblical-Examination-Posttribulationism/dp/0310254019/
https://archive.org/details/churchtribulatio0000gund/page/186/mode/2up?q=broadcast
https://archive.org/details/churchtribulatio0000gund/page/188/mode/2up?q=fifth
Page 187
Broadcast by Darby's six visits to America and by the extensive literature campaign of the Brethren and other writers under their influence, pretribulationism spread rapidly.
Today some argue that the popularity of pretribulationism has derived from the upsurge of Bible study during the last hundred years.
However, the majority believe what they are taught.
Page 188
We may summarize the historical arguments:
First, the eschatological chronology of the early Church displays enough detail to have included an imminent, pretribulational rapture in its premillennial scheme had pretribulationism been held as the apostolic doctrine.
Second, all the early fathers who touch upon final events speak with an explicitly posttribulational accent and assume this to be universal language in orthodox Christianity.
Third, the early Church did not hold to the imminence of Jesus' return.
Most of the passages cited in favor of imminence exhibit in the immediate context an expectation of passage through the tribulation.
The few and isolated remaining passages use no stronger language than the Scripture itself employs in admittedly posttribulational passages.
Fourth, the early Church received its doctrine directly from the apostles.
If the earliness of posttribulationism does not indicate apostolicity, neither can we say that the earliness of premillennialism indicates apostolocity.
And if the late origin of a- and postmillennialism indicates human invention, the still later origin of pretribulationism indicates the same.
Fifth, the premillennialism and futurism revived after the Reformation was posttribulational.
Sixth, pretribulationism did not become known and widely held until the mid-nineteenth century.
In view of the foregoing, we ought to regard pretribulationism as a late innovation, not an extension or refinement of the doctrine of the early Church.
By adding to the burden of proof which pretribulationism is unable to bear in scriptural exegesis, the historical argument confirms posttribulationism.