Father’s will

[gluecht2]

Patinak-thankyou so much for the kind word!  I have been party to many on-line discussions and find this group to be exceptionally civil-even friendly.  My name is Greg Luecht and I have no association with the aforementioned gluechat.

RE: Dandelion's post-I understand your thoughts.  I do not consider myself to be pro-punishment in a vengeful way just in case my posts are interpreted as this.  I do, however, see scripture as presenting faith/belief as essential for union with God.  The same reasons that accountable-man does not believe today will be the same reasons he will not believe tomorrow.  Any other future conditions necessary for further "convincing" would not constitute the faith of this age.  That is why scriptures' indication of the full and final revelation to man in Christ is the "cornerstone"(above posts).

[marie glen]

I began to look at this in a whole new way, when in study it came to mind the idea, of imagning myself as unsaved and having died, then finding myself awakened (from the grave - others would think of it as being conscious in death, then find myself back in my resurrected (mortal) body).

So in my imagination, there I was, alive after dying, and "the judgment" as Jesus called it, was beginning.

The question was, would I then still not believe? I had to think, faced with the reality that I'd been resurrected and was now in judgment 'day', I would "believe".

After that thought came the idea "what is it that gets ones name enrolled in the book of life?"

And now :Chinscratch: "enrolled" (the Greek) to me seems to be an ongoing recording.. Which is how I think of it. We are only given the barest outine concerning what occurs between Jesus' return and when Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father (per 1 Cor.15:22-28).

And where exactly does it say after death no hope? If we "die in our sins" implies, imo, is to rise still in our sins. (Rev.20) Where, exactly does it say that is a forever unable to ever be changed condition? That is all assumption based on beliefs of the nation's, likely spread out from Babel Tower.

Now if I had, during my lifetime come to hate the idea of God, and couldn't at first recognize the difference between the image of God in my head and heart, and the radiant God of Love and all Good.. I may rebel at the idea initially.. oR, if I had done great evils.. But I had to think that if I wasn't in either of those states, why wouldn't I "believe"?

And isn't that what gets ones name enrolled in the book of life?

The idea that the not yet saved are resurrected and find theirselves in a lake of fire, even aonianly, filled the gap for a while.. but I think it's not quite so simple, as resurrected, tossed to lake.

And if I'd been conscious all the while dead, wouldn't I in all likelihood "believe" by time resurrection?

I know some of us believers believe His coming and the resurrections have occurred, their being individual, not also collective, so likely would not agree with the scenario. And it's perfectly fine for each one of us to have our own understanding, and I trust He can change all of our perceptions as needed until we all, in the day, understand all things pertaining to it with clarity.. meanwhile not allowing ourselves to come under division, from our brothers and sisters. :HeartThrob:

But, bottom line - to me anyway - is Jesus said He will draw ALL to Himself, Jn.12:32. And, logically, I find no reason to doubt His words..
:Peace2:  :gsmile:

Lot of great posts in this thread! :girlheart:

[marie glen]

PS - amen, gleutcht2, believers of UR/CU (Universal Reconciliation/Christian Universalism) believes no one is saved except through "believing in Christ". What we believe is all will be drawn to Jesus and believing. That "with God all things are possible" and "with, and for God nothing is impossible".

This list of 77 verses is an excellent list of what Christian Universalism believes about the reconciliation of all - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

:Peace2: God bless!

[Patinak]

PS - amen, gleutcht2, believers of UR/CU (Universal Reconciliation/Christian Universalism) believes no one is saved except through "believing in Christ". What we believe is all will be drawn to Jesus and believing. That "with God all things are possible" and "with, and for God nothing is impossible".

This list of 77 verses is an excellent list of what Christian Universalism believes about the reconciliation of all - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

:Peace2: God bless!

Nice summation Glenda!

[sheila]

Truly,we are all saved by His Grace. That there would be those weaker in faith as to His extension of that Grace,is a given.

I believe,and am convinced that,just as in Jesus day;those that felt they were 'right' with God had a harder time adjusting to the

extent of that Grace being poured out through Jesus. And that amazingly.....those who were convinced that they were 'wrong' with

God..were more easily convinced they had been made 'right' with God..through that greater extension of Grace and mercy.

I have no desire to ever limit God's grace and mercy unto any man..in any circumstance. Actually,I believe in ever increasing

encompassing Grace and mercy[increasing of His Kingdom]through that very Grace[all3measures]

I have an assured expectation..and I will not be disappointed in Him. Faith,Hope and Love will remain.


Genesis9;9-17 I believe Jesus has cut off the dragon-flood waters of accusation against allmen..that mercy has triumphed overjudgement

Rev 4;3 and10;1a rainbow resembling an emerald encircled the throne....then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven

he was robed with a cloud with a rainbow around his head.

Daniel9;24 Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city toFINISH transgressions TOPUT AN END TO SIN,TO ATONE

you make an end of sin by forgiving and forgetting tresspassesMatthew 18;22I tell you..not seven times but seventy seven times.

  :2c:

[sheila]

 :2c:I believe...that Jesus bore on the cross..the sins of those who did not know what they do. The sins not yet repented of.

I believe when He prayed from that cross,"Father ,forgive them..they know not what they do"that included sins of ignorance committed

by all,through-out all generations.Thus taking away all thier sin.Clean animals representing men of understanding in this life,unclean

animals representing men who have no understanding in this life.Man,though held in honour,without understanding is like the beast that

perisheth.What God has cleansed no longer call unclean.,therefore call no man unclean[or not covered by Christ's blood]


Peter showed a sheet come down from heaven 3times..withboth clean and unclean beasts..and return back up into heaven[3measures]

in the ark during the flood..both clean and unclean animals lives were preserved.


Rev 11;19 Then God's temple[His body/ark/Word] inHEAVEN WAS OPENED...AND WITHIN HIS TEMPLE WAS SEEN THE

ARK OF HIS COVENAT[yes,He recieves allmens spirits within Himself..mans spirit is one with Him.[and his spirit return unto God]

I believe that is two or three witness in the scriptures.

we have the beast out of the sea[Leviathan]that continually accuses under the law..given a blow to the head[accuser serpent's head

that Jesus crushed...but then the beast come up out of the earth..in the form of a Lamb that speaks like a dragon[accuser again of sin

against men that Jesus bore on thecross] they 'soothe' the dragon/devil mind"by saying men are still responsible for sin..most will

be eternally destroyed..andJesus sacrifice meant little.Thus,HEALING THAT FATAL WOUND JESUS PUT ON SATANS HEAD BY HIS DEATH

AND SACRIFICE.

satan is thrown out of heaven,God no longer heeds him.HE IS LOSING NO-ONE.however..on this earth/satan hascome down..and

uses men of little or no understanding to accuse!!!Lambs that speak as dragons. Thisis christendom..not Buddha,muslims etc.

the saints were overcome..and are crushed minds of christ under the dragonsfeet!!!!!They curse men instead of blessing!!!!!

[gluecht2]

Thanks Marie and Sheila for your thoughtful responses.   It has been my experience (being new to this thought line) that the conclusions reached by UR/CU are thought provoking for sure.  These conclusions have led me to formulate responses with care and with scriptural principles in mind.  Having said that, I find that these conclusions depend on significant thought-lines of scripture to be treated as "symbolic" and/or are not sufficiently incorporated into the scheme.   I find that some plain meanings of references to be abandoned for "deeper" interpretation that fits UR/CU.   As I have stated in earlier posts in this and the Judas thread,  these tendencies appear to be more eisegesis than exegesis to me.  Ironically this contention has been directed my way as my more "mainline" conclusions are representative of the "standard" church and therefore lacking.   My overarching concern with UR/CU conclusions is that they do not reflect the urgency, that is plain in scripture, of Man's need for Christ as Savior in this age.   UR/CU conclusions can contribute to the already existing laissez-faire attitude pervasive in non-believers.   To make clear: evangelizing with the tone of "turn-or-burn" is neither what the Gospel is and not what I subscribe to.   But the revelation that I have been entrusted with is not in agreement with UR/CU conclusions.   I do not expect anybody to take my word of course.  I will say though that,  in response to my request for wisdom RE: UR/CU doctrine,  God gave me a dream indicating not to pursue this and for the proponents of UR/CU to venture to "own" what scripture states (I understand this to mean to allow scripture to speak for itself with plain meanings and allow the Spirit's help rather than follow the trend established in these pages).   I do not mean to be arrogant in the slightest but am attempting to pass on what has been given me.   I encourage all to seek wisdom from God directly RE: this and any other issues of doctrine or life :Peace2:.  Blessings to all bro's and sisses.

[MusicLover123]

I think that is why we should "test every spirit" to know whether it is from God or not. Obviously God knows you more than what I or others do, so it is basically between you and Him.

I do believe there is an "urgency" but that does not mean God won't accomplish what He desires. I feel because we are saying they won't have "eternal" consequences, that you take it to mean no urgency.

For interpretation, that thing I mainly like to do is put verses together. No "crazy imagination" needed. I think verses do have a symbolic meaning, but I always see ones that bring up symbolism are always against the literal. I just think, why not both? He gives pieces of the puzzle to different people, we should not think the foot can operate on its own, and try not to say that a literal meaning shouldn't belong. But I digress.

Basically the 2 or 3 witnesses to a truth in Scripture.

Again, I think people will reap what they sow. But I think of it as a lesson. Lessons have a purpose, and the trials in that aren't an end to itself, but always points to God.

[MusicLover123]

Something just popped in my head. Maybe it means it is not your time to know this yet.

[gluecht2]

your last thought is not consistent with the answer of my question of God;   also remember believer's have an unction from the Holy Spirit and we know all truth;   we only need to seek and we will find

[jabcat]

believers know all truth?  I believe we know THE truth - Jesus - and have access to whatever other truths HE wants and allows us to find - according to His will and timing.  For example, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter."  Also, "we see through a glass darkly"...

I do believe many things are written "plainly" in scripture.  I also believe many other things are symbolic, metaphorical, etc., and require digging, interpretation (rightly dividing), and revelation and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I used to be an ET proponent.  Since God showed me UR, I've questioned a few times, with His answer being "I've already shown you".

How would you reconcile God's answer to me, with His answer/dream to you?  Is one of us not truly hearing from Him, or is it possible there's an answer/timing for a purpose for you and another for me and vice-versa - or something else? 

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:Jesus told His disciples,'I have much more to tell you,but you can not bear them at present" Go in peace,my brother..

and maybe we shall come togather again at another time. :girlheart:

[sheila]

ps I believe His word to you was..not to pursue it[unable to bear]..that we must journey [venture]on to possess[own] all these promises of

His in the scriptures. Never-the-less..each man according to his faith. :girlheart:

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[gluecht2]

Jabcat I would ask you that same question;   also scripture states he gives wisdom liberally to all who ask (Ja 1:5);  this an example of what I stated about eisegesis;  these contentions that God is "holding back" for my own good may fit for you folks but it does not wash with scripture;   Christ stated to the Apostles about not bearing further info before His crucifixion and before the Holy Spirit indwelt believers;   believers are also possessors of the "mind of Christ" (1Cor 2:10-16)

[jabcat]

OK, I'll agree to go first even though I didn't make the original assertion.   :Peace2:  My answer is likely, timing - His.

There's also a possibility that one of us isn't hearing accurately, or are so entrenched in our held beliefs that our own thoughts influence what's being said.  I don't know, I just thought it was a reasonable question since you said you/we know all truth and God showed you something.   :dontknow:   So if 2 believers "hear" 2 opposite things, it seems to me it's worth exploring/asking why that might be.

"Giving liberally", IMO, does not mean "all truth".  Further, being "guided into all truth" seems to have a significant list of corresponding scriptures, that would seem to culminate with this, IMO;  "Each believer is led into all the truth necessary to his own state and condition, to enable him to do his duty and work (Eph. 4:7). Christ gives to each according to his measure and needs." 

But anyway, I don't want this to degenerate into a debate. If you care to explore the above question, that's fine.   But if you simply don't believe in Ultimate Reconciliation through the cross of Christ, if you're wrong now, you'll know some day.  And if I'm wrong now, I'll know some day.   



 

[gluecht2]

liberally is my word meaning without limit-we know ALL truth (1Jn 2:20)

[jabcat]

edited/added to my post, including the last line, apparently while you were typing.  My bad..new/further thoughts..

I will bring some of what you didn't address and/or what I'd added down here , if you care to respond;
-------
OK, I'll agree to go first even though I didn't make the original assertion.   :Peace2:  My answer is likely, timing - His.

There's also a possibility that one of us isn't hearing accurately, or are so entrenched in our held beliefs that our own thoughts influence what's being said.  I don't know, I just thought it was a reasonable question since you said you/we know all truth and God showed you something.   :dontknow:   So if 2 believers "hear" 2 opposite things, it seems to me it's worth exploring/asking why that might be.

Further, being "guided into all truth" seems to have a significant list of corresponding scriptures, that would seem to culminate with this, IMO;  "Each believer is led into all the truth necessary to his own state and condition, to enable him to do his duty and work (Eph. 4:7). Christ gives to each according to his measure and needs." 
 

[jabcat]

liberally is my word meaning without limit-we know ALL truth (1Jn 2:20)

Doing a little digging into this scripture;

from Ray Stedman;  "The King James Version, in Verse 20 says, "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." Now that is certainly not what John wrote. He did not say of Christians, "You know all things." That would make Christians "know-it-alls" and there is nothing more universally obnoxious than a "know-it-all." Christians obviously do not know all things. The correct rendering, adopted by the Revelationised Standard Version, is "you all know." Because of the anointing which you have received from Jesus Christ, the Holy One, you all know."

There are other seemingly valid interpretations/commentaries other than "believers know everything/have all knowledge". 

[MusicLover123]

Just a couple verses past that, it says this"

1Jn 2:27  The anointing you received from God abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you this. Instead, because God's anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.

And some other related verses:

Joh 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you.

Psa 25:8  The LORD is good and just; therefore he will teach sinners concerning the way.
Psa 25:9  He will guide the humble to justice; he will teach the humble his way.

Jas 1:5  Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him.

Now, if we "knew all things" already, why would we ask and pray for more? Maybe if it is "knowing all things" it has to do with this:

Mat 6:33  But first be concerned about God's kingdom and his righteousness, and all of these things will be provided for you as well.
Mat 6:34  So never worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

[marie glen]

Thanks Marie and Sheila for your thoughtful responses.   It has been my experience (being new to this thought line) that the conclusions reached by UR/CU are thought provoking for sure.  These conclusions have led me to formulate responses with care and with scriptural principles in mind.  Having said that, I find that these conclusions depend on significant thought-lines of scripture to be treated as "symbolic" and/or are not sufficiently incorporated into the scheme.   I find that some plain meanings of references to be abandoned for "deeper" interpretation that fits UR/CU.   As I have stated in earlier posts in this and the Judas thread,  these tendencies appear to be more eisegesis than exegesis to me.  Ironically this contention has been directed my way as my more "mainline" conclusions are representative of the "standard" church and therefore lacking.   My overarching concern with UR/CU conclusions is that they do not reflect the urgency, that is plain in scripture, of Man's need for Christ as Savior in this age.   UR/CU conclusions can contribute to the already existing laissez-faire attitude pervasive in non-believers.   To make clear: evangelizing with the tone of "turn-or-burn" is neither what the Gospel is and not what I subscribe to.   But the revelation that I have been entrusted with is not in agreement with UR/CU conclusions.   I do not expect anybody to take my word of course.  I will say though that,  in response to my request for wisdom RE: UR/CU doctrine,  God gave me a dream indicating not to pursue this and for the proponents of UR/CU to venture to "own" what scripture states (I understand this to mean to allow scripture to speak for itself with plain meanings and allow the Spirit's help rather than follow the trend established in these pages).   I do not mean to be arrogant in the slightest but am attempting to pass on what has been given me.   I encourage all to seek wisdom from God directly RE: this and any other issues of doctrine or life :Peace2:.  Blessings to all bro's and sisses.

I think humans are very prone to making literal what's metaphor - gehenna, would be an example. But worse than that, to me anyway, is the metaphoring what is literal! Yes, I absolutely believe it undermines the UR/CU message.

I also believe judgment along with judgment 'day' to be absolutely literal. Along with "fiery" judgment.. after all Jude said the example of eternal judgment is that which befell Sodom and Gomorrah. (I might add, that man's own modern day capabilities, are able to result in those exact occurrences.)

Literal also, when Jesus said if He was lifted up from the Earth - referring to the manner of His death - He would draw all to Him, In 12:32. Also if we carefully read 1 Cor. 15:22-28.. extremely literal. And verses about what God wants and if His will can be blocked or prevented, very literal.

Wheat gathered into His barn and tares gathered to be burned - at His return when "every eye sees Him / literal - is metaphor for the gathering of those that are His at His return, and (I'm) the gathering of the godless of the nation's gathering to Arageddon.

I totally agree that the idea that because 5 words were translated into hell - an ancient spiritual/political belief of the nations - including "pit" which accompanying verses say consists of dust and worms as a bed and blanket, is no reason to place man's thoughts about the Word, above the Word! Which is exactly what I think "too much" metaphor does. Even if it is well intentioned, it sometimes actually contradicts, or adds to or takes away from God's Word!

I'm a happy down to Earth gal. I believe the lion will literally eat strawlime the ox and the bear with the cow, Isaiah 11:7. I believe God's throne, whatever that totality is, will literally come to Earth. And I believe God the Father will literally make all things new, and will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:22-28!). [How can we Christian's Universalists expect folks to take all such verses as literal, if we metaphor everything else!?]

God bless! :Peace2: :girlheart:

[marie glen]

P.S. - I believe there will be lots of literal weeping and gnashing of teeth, even outer darkness, on 'day' of judgment, even burning shame and terror for some.. The second resurrection - of all not saved during their lifetime, thus they rise "still in their sin" - is FAR surpassed in quality and joy, etc, by the one of all believers which rise at His return. Initially FAR less joyful than that of believers. But with the eventual outcome that all would be baptized with fire (of heartfelt repentance) like we were too.

[If it's a matter of choice, how did those who never heard about Jesus, make the choice one way or the other? Do they ever get the chance to 'choose'? The root word of logic, is logos..] :gsmile:

I also believe Jesus warned Israel about fiery judgment/gehenna which was coming in 70a.d. and John the Baptist did too, summing it up very well, "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?!" -- But that is said to be  metaphor for 'hell,. Well, looking back, it was obviously literal. I also believe the world is warned about coming fiery judgment upon man's corrupt system(s) and empires, as not built on the Rock, they cannot endure. Oh yes, I believe Armageddon battle in gehenna valley outside Israel will be literal and very much 'hellish'--the metaphor.

God bless! :gsmile:  :girlheart:

[gluecht2]

I will touch on Musiclover first and more fully digest and react to Marie Glen later (that's a long one Marie-LOL);  in short believers know all truth in their S(s)pirits by faith;   all we need do is ask in faith without double mindedness (James);   that is what is meant by the mind of Christ and believers knowing all truth;  the Holy Spirit will reveal to us what is Christ's and lead us into all truth (Jn16:13-15 and others) and the Holy Spirit is within believers (Rom 8:9);   as mentioned above He does not withhold wisdom which is the application of knowledge/truth:  this is consistent with what I understand you to be saying-I agree with much of your statements;   this however is not consistent with the former assertions of God withholding from one "for his own good" as applied above;   the above thoughts are also very consistent with "know all truth" in 1Jn 2:20 but as you know basing doctrine on just one verse is not solid exegesis (this theme can be more fully developed with addt'l references to the above also);   Eph 4:7 in context is speaking of Spiritual gifts and their distribution within the body for the body-I believe not fully pertinent to what we are discussing
 

[MusicLover123]

I think the main thing about prayer is this: we pray for His will to be done. This includes all aspects, whether big or small.

Is it His will to give you understanding without preparing you to receiving it? Or does He do things on His timing? I take that into account for all the verses regarding asking for things.

And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, [everything in heaven and earth must be in accord with God's will {His purpose and plan, Eph. 1:11} or it won't happen] He hears us: And if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him" (I John 5:14-15).

[jabcat]

Is it His will to give you understanding without preparing you to receiving it? Or does He do things on His timing? I take that into account for all the verses regarding asking for things.

Yeah, obviously (to me), we don't LITERALLY currently possess all knowledge.  Believers do know THE Truth, Jesus.  And we have access to any and all truth it's HIS WILL for us to have, in His timing and according to His will.

ML (and others) what do you think about this?  That even though the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, we can ALL miss the message or leading for a time until we are shown better later.    So that perhaps being led into absolutely ALL truth - won't even occur in this age.  Actually, that's my "guess" - that we get what we're open to and given now and/or whatever we need according to His will - but get the rest in the renewal/next age.   :Chinscratch:

Otherwise, there'd be no differences of opinions (Paul and Barnabas), no growing in grace and KNOWLEDGE, no studying to show yourself approved, seeing through a glass darkly, etc.     Hey!  Also, I've never been wrong about anything, I just didn't know it.  ;)  :rolllol: