It’s interesting to me to read commentaries which talk about how believers were/are given to Jesus by the Father and how “none and nothing can prevent the will of Gid” that Jesus cannot lose one who believes in Him because it’s the Father’s will which cannot be negated in any way.. that “all given to Jesus by the Father can’t be lost”.
Yet they miss how it says Jesus was given dominion over all things (to subdue, presently). Aren’t all people included in “all things”?
It was always like ripples in a pond.. Israel was told they were to bear the Light and the nations would come to the light.. And (by extension) the next ripple is UR.
Which the scripture - ”As through Adam all die, evenso, shall all through Christ live. But each in their own order” - like ripples in a pond? Jesus, the Firstfruits - birthed by Israel - the Rock thrown into the pond (lol) ..”THEN those that are His at His coming, then comes the end when the all things have been subdued.. that God may be all in all. Like three ripples in a pond..
Israel, in large part couldn’t perceive the next ripple.. tho it sure was clear to Isaiah - and now, today, Christians in large part, cannot perceive the next extension/ripple.
..It just seems ironic reading commentators going on about how nothing can obstruct God’s will. But they (seem to) miss how the scriptures say it is His will all be saved, and they insist He is unable to bring about the redemption of all. (Mt.13:33? Parable of the leaven hidden in three measures of meal..)
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/6-39.htm
As far as frustrating God's will: Mark 6:5-6 seems to indicate that Man's unbelief can stand in the way of God's will.
God rewards faith..and adds more to it. He said 'ye neither enter in,but hinder those trying to enter in.""amazed at their lack of faith
in God's goodness...His desire to forgive and heal His people.
1 Thess 2;4 :2c:
Isaiah 46
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Even if that read that He "desires" all to be saved, God says He will do what He wants, so nothing will stop that. Even unbelief is part of His plan. Not saying that is from Him, but it will not stop ultimately what He wants to do.
We tend to make God less than what He is, to try to fit Him into a box of doctrines.
'THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN" not yelling...emphasis on HIS WORD
Quote from: gluecht2 on January 08, 2019, 09:18:52 PM
As far as frustrating God's will: Mark 6:5-6 seems to indicate that Man's unbelief can stand in the way of God's will.
Amen! But not "forever". Or that is, there's no forever in the verse, just we've gotten in the habit of seeing it in terms of forever..
Jesus said He will draw all to Himself, John 12:32.
This is a an awesome list of verses much like it - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063
:hiya: God bless!
P.S. - amen brother and sister... :girlheart:
5 And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.
Mark 6
I suppose, belief opens the door for God's Spirit to enter. We need to welcome Him.
I don't see this as in anyway a contradiction of UR, however, because, "when we see Him, we will be like Him". No more will we see through the"mirror dimly".
" You believed, Thomas, because you saw, but blessed are those who did not see, yet still believed."
D.
I understand the contention of addt'l opportunity for man to believe and therefore receive salvation (addt'l to this earthly existence that is). I just do not agree that that is what the whole of scripture indicates. This obviously is a debatable point but the concern I have is that universal salvation's contention undermines the accountability for man to choose belief. It indicates that God will convince man "someway" at "sometime" when given enough opportunities to do so. God has ALREADY spoken in His Word, through creation, and ultimately in His Son. Earthly man has full revelation at this present time to seek.
Lk 16:31...
Well friend, God has other plans:
Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Means they cannot be given back ooncene it is given.)
Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 3
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 13
3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God
God isn't working with all men though at this time, most are still blinded by the god of this world. He isn't choosing to save all in this age, but few now, and the rest later.
And let's not forget whose faith actually saves:
Hebrews 12
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
He is a Father, not some helpless baby on damage control. Trust in His perfect timing.
Quote from: Dandelion on January 10, 2019, 06:29:17 AM
5 And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.
Mark 6
I suppose, belief opens the door for God's Spirit to enter. We need to welcome Him.
I don't see this as in anyway a contradiction of UR, however, because, "when we see Him, we will be like Him". No more will we see through the"mirror dimly".
" You believed, Thomas, because you saw, but blessed are those who did not see, yet still believed."
Actually, as I read what I wrote again, I realize that this actually, in some ways, contradicts myself, because I believe that we can backslide, as Christians. Of course, though, as a UR believer, I don't have to wrestle with the fear of a hell, but I do believe that believers can get very much off the track, if they lose that faith and trust in God. But, of course, we will all be back on track one day.....just maybe not today. Where is the boundary when too far brings us to a different place? I have to think about this, but perhaps, when 'other gods' steal our hearts and minds and soul. And, we might not even realize it.
That's one of the best things about this site.....it makes me look at scripture carefully, almost everyday, and presents me with many challenges regarding this..........with many nice people, I might add.
D.
:2c:itdoes appear to be a dichotomy,doesn't it?dis the scriptures that tell of the Lamb taking away all their sin[Blessed is the man
whose sins are covered]or place the sins back on their shoulders and cast them into ET/ED/LOF..and dis all the scriptures
about Jesus coming to save the world/not condemn it? Sometimes...a man knows not of what spirit he is.
It is good to convince a man of sin[that he is falling far short of the loveof God and Jesusfor all men/by less than loving behaviour] but
evil to convict/condemn/judge men that God and Jesus have atoned for by the cross.Mercy triumphs over judgement to condemnation.
There was war inheaven..Michael and his angels fought and satan and his.The accuser of men to God's face wasthrown out of heaven
unto the earth....dragon breath..dragon flood waters/doctrines..seek tosweep the woman away.thewomanis saved through childbearing
...and Goodnews unto all men...UNTO US A SON IS GIVEN...GOD WITH US
Michael willstand up...and allyour people will be delivered[all mankind] God will also deliver us from the faultfinding of the people,as
wellas the accuser.
the warring in our minds of these seeming dichotomies in the scriptures[we war against powers and principalities in high places]
strong holdsof the dragons accusations in our minds[Did Jesus really take away allthe worlds sin on the cross?Is eternal life really
a freegift?surely not-thus andthus satan seduces the mind to disbelief/doubt in God's word/Love/salvation/mercy/power.
this salvation is not of our own works..but it is the work of God...A MIRACLE-THEWORK OF A DIVINE AGENCY.
God alone will be exalted on that day! no flesh will be boasting..Lord,Lord,didn't we do thus and thus..instead..itwill be
'Come ye who are blessed"[man with his sins covered] :2c:
:2c:Mark9;47,48..............it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye[point ofview/through grace/freegift]
than to have two eyes[pov]and be thrown in hell...where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
if your hand causes you to sin[saved by works] cut it off,and if your foot[walk/way of life]cut it off.
we walk haltingly on our thigh[notinlove]..when we usurp our brother's[fellowman's]birth right in Christ from him.
just as we have all bore the image of the corrupt,so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt.
"God isn't working with all men though at this time, most are still blinded by the god of this world. He isn't choosing to save all in this age, but few now, and the rest later". (Musiclover)
I try to stay "big picture" because of the many systemic theological paths and conclusions that can be difficult to sift through. I see in scripture the urgency for: belief for the Savior in this world; the caution RE: hardness of heart; encouragement to endure to the end; the presence of a second death.
I started with a question RE: Judas's fate in another discussion to address the above contention (Musiclover). I see the understanding of Judas's fate on these pages to be problematic. To interpret "better off if he not be born" with any optimism is hard to fathom. The quote above (Musiclover) is representative and IMO contributes to these type of conclusions rather than letting scripture speak for itself. It all has to fit together.
"He is a Father, not some helpless baby on damage control. Trust in His perfect timing."(Musiclover)
As to this second sentiment-no disagreement here. But God has sent His Son right on time or "at the fullness of time" (Gal 4: 4). He also has spoken with all He has, perfectly and with finality (Heb 1:2; Mk 12:6). But the choice remains with Man. Individual man's unbelief stops God's will for his life (multiple references throughout the NT). Man's choice of unbelief does not, in any way, diminish God's magnificence (Rom 3:4)
Not sure if I can help at all...
I think WhiteWings's post is helpful here.
I also think it's important to note hyperbole that exists throughout scripture and is part of the Jewish mindset, it is used to get a point across and portray something.
Wailing and gnashing of teeth, cut off your hand if it causes you to sin, Gehenna fire. We can't tead scripture with a modern western mindset and understand it very well.
So to portray the seriousness of what Judas did, the statement in question was made.
Also, I go back and forth on God's will man's will because there are clear scriptures that seemingly contradict as far as how much our will is a factor versus God's. It's a mystery for now and anyone who thinks they have it figured out, steer clear of their teachings IMO
Basically I believe the urgency in the Bible is because if we say yes to life, love and God NOW we avoid so much pain, confusion, death, and destruction for OURSELVES and for those we interact with (OTHERS).
It's a ripple effect, and that is why those who are responding to God NOW are furthering along the kingdom, and are participants with Christ and his work.
I'll be honest, I'm a full preterist, I believe the end of the age of law happened on the cross and 70AD and we are now in the new heaven/new earth where the kingdom is like leaven, and we are slowly seeing Christ leaven us all. It all depends on the lens in which you see the world, and if you think we are close to destruction and Armageddon then you will see the bad, but if you believe we are slowly seeing Christ change us individually until all are like Him, you will see evidence of that all around.
I think our growing and learning and transformation happens on earth first as a sort of womb and after our earthly experience we will continue to grow and all are at different stages but all will get to God in the end.
If you knew that one of your children would suffer horribly on earth, SOME people would say better for that child to not be born. It's one of the arguments for abortion. So whether we think that statement refers to Jesus, who suffered unspeakably because of Judas's actions, or that it refers to Judas, who was tormented mentally and killed himself, either way sometimes suffering on earth carries so much weight that we think it would be better to not have even been born.
So I'm bouncing around a bit but I believe God is near to all of us and waiting for us to seek or respond to him, and some do it now and some do it later. I also don't think being saved is a one time thing, I think some of us who think we are "saved" have a lot of growing to do, and that is why the first shall be last and who we think is "in" and who is "out" is not necessarily how it goes.
I admit, I probably could have worded that part better. But I was implying a couple things with that:
Most basically view God as this baby. He tried creating something good(Adam and Eve) but the stupid serpent ruined His plans, and the woman and man disobeyed! Furious, now He sends all these prophets and people to try to fix this. Well, they just keep messing up too! He then sends Jesus, and tells Him to save the world. Ignorantly calling Himself triumphant, Jesus tries getting the 100 sheep, but lost 99 in the process. As last resort, God takes what puny amount He managed to save, and throws the rest in torture chamber for all eternity. At last, He can finally have peace, because although He failed miserably, at least He can take His failure and anger out on something.
Here is the main problem I have when bring this topic up to others. If I just list some Scriptures, they have all these preconceived ideas, like God only wishing it to happen, or all not meaning all, etc. So they don't see it the same way. If I comment a little on those verses, or just leave a general comment on my view, it is usually accused of twisting Scripture.
I would say too, how much of a part we play in salvation, and how much God plays, is a mystery.
First of all, IMO, as long as you are a born again follower of Christ, if at this point you believe in eternal hell, that's "OK". You're still a brother and your attitude and approach have been great. That's all good. Good discussion is, well, good :) It can make everyone dig a little more in earnest.
Sometimes we change our view a little here and there, and/or seeds are sown for later growth.
That said, this
Quote from: gluecht2 on January 12, 2019, 04:24:14 PM
It all has to fit together.
IMO makes a good case for an understanding of the ultimate reconciliation of all through the blood and cross of Jesus.
As far as man's choice, I certainly believe we are constantly faced with them, and it required of us. Obedience, guarding our heart, seeking Him, etc. However, in the very end, I believe God has the final say. And He "wills all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth".
"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.
:2c: two trees in the garden.the TOKOGAE=God's good spirit and satan's evil spirit manifesting in the flesh of men.The scriptures must
be fulfilled! and some men have been chosen to act out these adversarial roles.However, the TOL..ofwhich Jesus was..andour spirits areof
is a whole different tree.
the fullness of time was the fulfilling of the law covenant...no man is righteous,no not one. The fulfilling of the law covenant is God boundup
all men in disobedience in order to have mercy on all in the new grace covenant. Break one law/guilty of them all. the fulfilling of the law
isJesus the Passover Lamb..and Atonement Lord's goat.
Men are borne along of the Holy spirit by God's will. God causes men to desire and do His good will..
ROMANS 9;11YET,BEFORE THE TWINS WERE BORN OR HAD DONE ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD-IN ORDER THAT GOD'S PURPOSE
IN ELECTION[CHOOSING}MIGHT STAND;NOT BY WORKS BUT BY HIM WHO CALLS.
Romans9;19 Thenwhy does God still blame us? For who resists His will? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it........
WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS? Does not the potter has the right to make somefor noble use and somefor common?
God teaches didatic lessons using both positive and negative contrast examples..that we may see the merits ofgood behavior
and learn from the negatives what not to do. GOD HAS PURPOSE IN THIS...TO TEACH,EDUCATE.
Israel's -UNBELIEF=Romans9;30-33BECAUSE THEY PURSUED IT NOT BY FAITH,BUT AS IF IT WERE BY WORKS.
many overcome saints[churches] that Daniel prophesied about.....still stumble over this stone...works oriented salvation.
Because men have believed that the choosing/choice is theirs and not God's..and that men can 'change' themselves..many have
come forth that are called of men..not God.Resulting in false prophecies/false prophets,teaching of comandments of men,false apostles,
false shepherds,sects/cults..false gospels,etc..Psalms50;16 But to the wicked God says,'what right have you to recite my laws,or take
my covenant on your lips? You hate my instruction and cast my words behind you.Whenyou see a thief you join with him;you throw
in your lot with adulterers-verses through 23.
Jesus had to deal with the same religious leaders that usurped positions in His day. Evil contrast.
the lesson learned of the TOKOGAE is this,,reject the evil and choose the good/GOD. But Jesus said..either make the tree good or make
the tree evil. Jesus was a piece of fruit come down from heaven of the TOL..that we may taste and see that GOD IS GOOD..and
that obedience/believing God..is better than sacrifice..but sacrifice and offering did not please Him..but He was delighting in mercy.
Hosea 6;6 Lack of faith/unbelief in the word of God not to eat of the TOKOGAE led to mans downful.Putting belief in the wordof
God/Jesus of God's forgiveness/mercy and frre gift of eternal life/Tol leads to mans rising.ALL prodigal sons return unto their
Good Father..when Jesus calls them home...andif they doNOT heed these false christs/churches men calling them..then don't you
know His lost sheep will not heed another's voice.Never-the-less,Balaam prophets pronounce curses on them for money/tithes
many aSunday..and Judas priests rob them regularly,wolves prey on them..false-shepherds abuse them.
God's gifts and callings are without repentance on man's part. Man "changes/repents"when he is called/chosen..each in his order.
if we speak of these things to anyone,and they not respond,then we know it is not God's will or their time to receive it.Jesus had
those who were given unto Him of the Father at their time..and they answered His call..and the call of those He sent forth.
God'swillmay be for a man to go into captivity to sin..to learn from painful expierence and example of how to not do/or act.
also,He may send us to a spiritual prison[church]that welearn through painful expierence to not be a man follower.Heknows what
we will do before we do it because before we were born He had planned what our expierences would be. Til we receive that upward
call we will receive both positive and negative expierences,as He planned.Proverbs 16;9Inhisheart a man plans his coarse....but
the Lord determines his steps.
:2c:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 12, 2019, 07:31:33 PM
I admit, I probably could have worded that part better. But I was implying a couple things with that:
Most basically view God as this baby. He tried creating something good(Adam and Eve) but the stupid serpent ruined His plans, and the woman and man disobeyed! Furious, now He sends all these prophets and people to try to fix this. Well, they just keep messing up too! He then sends Jesus, and tells Him to save the world. Ignorantly calling Himself triumphant, Jesus tries getting the 100 sheep, but lost 99 in the process. As last resort, God takes what puny amount He managed to save, and throws the rest in torture chamber for all eternity. At last, He can finally have peace, because although He failed miserably, at least He can take His failure and anger out on something.
Here is the main problem I have when bring this topic up to others. If I just list some Scriptures, they have all these preconceived ideas, like God only wishing it to happen, or all not meaning all, etc. So they don't see it the same way. If I comment a little on those verses, or just leave a general comment on my view, it is usually accused of twisting Scripture.
I would say too, how much of a part we play in salvation, and how much God plays, is a mystery.
!
This is actually a pretty hilarious synopsis of the "not so good news" that people pass off as Christianity.
:thumbsup:
I also especially thought this a great phrase by Sheila - "Balaam prophets pronounce curses on them for money/tithes" :Chinscratch:
P.S. - not that I think it's intentional, except in some cases of course, human nature being what it is.. :gsmile:
:2c:they know not what they do. The saints[churches] were overcome..as Daniel prophesied. God allowed this..for a greater
purpose.That..noflesh boast[bound up all men in sin..in order to have mercy on all] They are under grace..as is all mankind.
Micah 3;5Thisiswhat the Lord says,' As for the prophets who lead my people astray...if one feeds them they proclaim peace,
if he does not they prepare to wage war against him......her leaders judge for a bribe,her priests teach for a price..and her prophets
tell fortunes for money. Yet,they lean upon the Lord and say,'is not the Lord among us?,no disater will come upon us"
Micah ch 4TheMountain of the Lord..and the Lord's plan- the former dominion will be restored.
v13Rise and thresh, O"Daughter of Zion,I will give you horns of iron; I will give you hoofs of bronze and youwill break to pieces
many nations. You will devote their ill gotten gains to the Lord, their wealth[people, God's jewel's/treasure] to the Lord of all the earth
[Psalms ch 124]
Isaaih 49;24 Can plunder be taken from warriors,or captives rescued from the fierce? But this is what the Lord says,"YES,
CAPTIVESWILL BE TAKEN FROM WARRIORS,AND PLUNDER RETRIEVED FROM THE FIERCE;I WILL CONTENDWITH THOSE WHO
CONTEND WITH YOU,AND YOUR CHILDREN I WILL SAVE.
Our Saviour,redeemer will gather all men from where-ever they have been scattered. :2c:
God knows the end from the beginning. He predestines those that He foreknows will believe to be like His Son. This is consistent with many are called but few are chosen. The few that are "chosen" are so because they themselves acknowledge and accept that they are chosen in "answering the call" of Christ. They accept God's Gift. They are the elect. You see in this way this preserves man's choice and God's glory. I do not mean to be dogmatic but I think of it this way-All Man is accountable because of creation (Paul) and God took the "extra step" in revealing Himself through His Word (of course including Christ) to call those that He knew would believe. God revealing Himself in creation and His grace plan in Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for some. He wills that all be saved. His ultimate call was, and is, in His Son. There is no more revelation of God to Man because God has revealed all of Himself fully in His Son. Christ is SEATED at the R hand of the Father..... It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of Kings to reveal it.
Then what is the point of God creating the millions of non-elect?
Look at this:
1. God is sovereign
2. God "wills" all to be saved
3.
Absolutely nothing stops God from accomplishing that
4. God even tells us to pray for this to happen
I think the most logical conclusion is that God will get what He wants.
QuoteHis grace plan in Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for some
Have you read these verses:
Romans 11
29for God's
gifts and his call are
irrevocable.(Once given, cannot be given back)
Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon
all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free
gift came upon
all men unto justification of life.
Titus 2
11For the
grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to
all menEphesians 2
8For by
grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the
gift of God
So, even grace is a gift. And, like all of God's gifts, and once He calls someone, it
cannot be returned back.And on the chosen/elect. I have to study more on that, but I think it may have to actually do with the workers and the harvest. The elect will be the first of everyone to be saved, not that they are the only ones that will be. It might have to do with some getting more privelages, but bigger responsibility for a time.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 13, 2019, 06:52:39 PM
Look at this:
1. God is sovereign
2. God "wills" all to be saved
3. Absolutely nothing stops God from accomplishing that
4. God even tells us to pray for this to happen
I think the most logical conclusion is that God will get what He wants.
QuoteHis grace plan in Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for some
Have you read these verses:
Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.(Once given, cannot be given back)
Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
So, even grace is a gift. And, like all of God's gifts, and once He calls someone, it cannot be returned back.
And on the chosen/elect. I have to study more on that, but I think it may have to actually do with the workers and the harvest. The elect will be the first of everyone to be saved, not that they are the only ones that will be. It might have to do with some getting more privelages, but bigger responsibility for a time.
This ^^^^^^^^^^
:dsunny:
John5;20 Forjust as the Father raises the dead..AND GIVES THEM LIFE,even so,the son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Sovereign means all powerfull not all controlling; God's will for Mankind will be come to pass. That is still true even though each individual man may not accept God's grace in Christ. This grace HAS indeed appeared to all men but it is up to each individual to accept the gift (note HAS is past tense-this is consistent with the thought in previous comment of His revelation being complete and Man being accountable).
It won't matter so much if any of us are not truly open/searching, because we can find ways to "explain or explain away" things. Still, how would tie what you just said into this scripture, Romans 9:16?
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
To go along with Romans 9:16:
James 2
13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
And as I said before, Father has to draw someone to Himself first, in order for someone to seek Him.
Romans 3
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Jabcat and Musiclover: I do not see your statements in conflict with God's Grace described in my last 2 posts. The chosen are those who have accepted God's mercy and grace. Man's choice and God's rightful glory are preserved. I see your statements as reinforcing this point.
A comment on Grace: in Strong's, a key point in the definition is "Divine influence upon the heart."
Let's be honest too, many reject Christianity because of how many portray God. They portray Him as this angry schizophrenic psychopath, who says "love me or burn." He tells you to love your enemies, but won't love His own. Calls Himself love, and merciful, until you mess up in the slightest way. His followers want Him to give them as much forgiveness as possible, but those who reject Him due to how they portray God, they want and delight in as much pain and destruction for unbelievers.
They say "Jesus won" yet they secretly believe He's not going to save much, and doesn't matter to them how bad God treats unbelievers, as long as they themselves are safe.
Or another side to this. People make choice their god, and think that man's will is stronger then God. Yet they don't live the same way in everyday life.
Like if someone had children, if your child did not want to do something, but you know it is good for them, and it will benefit them. They just don't know any better. If they refuse at first, do you just stand around and let it happen, fully knowing it will bring great pain? Of course not! Why do we try to make God less than a parent?
Unbelievers don't reject God for the most part, they reject how most of His followers portray Him as. They don't want eternal torture or death! They want to hold on to the flesh and sinful desires, but if they even had a taste of God's goodness and Grace, there is no way they would reject it. They don't fully know God, so how would they know any better, just as a child doesn't fully understand a Parent's reasons and choices?
I'm not trying to minimize sin, they will be chastised for wrongdoing. But there is purpose to it all, destruction is never God's last word. He doesn't destroy something without the purpose of rebuilding it better, and on better foundation(Christ.)
Same with being saved. It is not forced confession, as God is not glorified by liars. But it is inevitable. And it is for their own good.
I understand your point to a point.... I agree and have been exposed to the "standard" church line also. But that is not the God of His Word (scripture/Christ). Sin is no longer an issue (peace on earth, goodwill towards Man....) between God and Man because of Christ. Sin however does have earthly consequences and also provides a foothold for the Devil's accusation toward Man. Sin does not change God's view of Man for God sees believers in/by/through Christ. Sin does however affect how man sees God. God has taken away the barrier between Man and Himself. We are no longer judged for Sin-but we will be accountable for rejecting the solution. It is Man's choice and God has provided all the revelation that we need.
I probably did not make it clear, but I don't believe what I wrote is how God truly is, but most believe that view of God and reject it, because they do not know God fully.
I believe the veil is taken away, but you have to be in Christ first, the veil is not taken away from anyone until they are in Christ. And it is a gift from God, so that no one can boast, and I think this includes "choosing God" first, because then we can boast on how much wisdom we have, or arguments, or self will.
2Co 3:14 However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah is that veil removed.
2Co 3:15 Yet even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
2Co 3:16 But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
We all reap what we sow, but I think it will never be "eternal consequences" but limited in time. This is a judgement, and it has a purpose. But mercy triumphs over that. No one escapes judgement(unless there are harsher judgements for some that others don't need) , believers just go through it first.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Heb 3:6 but the Messiah was faithful as the Son in charge of God's household, and we are his household if we hold on to our courage and the hope in which we rejoice.
There may be "enough revelation" but remember that most are still blinded to the Gospel. And even as believers, we still see through the glass darkly.
I understand you to say that in choosing to believe God we can then claim credit?? If that is true (which I nor I believe scripture indicates), what is the difference whenever man believes. By this logic anytime he accepts will be a time for boasting (whether on earth or after). The veil/barrier of Sin HAS been torn/removed between God and Man (see previous post) allowing intimacv with God. No longer is there the barrier of Sin. We are in union with the Messiah when we believe what God says in His Word (scripture/Made Flesh). God's light in the Messiah overtakes the darkness. Faith does come from outside of Man but it is through believing/accepting His Word which is a choice(Rom 10:17). As far as Man's awareness of God- does not Rom 1:18-20 paint a different picture?
2 Corinthians 4
3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Unbelievers are blinded, so even if it is "clear to see" for them, they are still blinded from seeing this. Until they are drawn, and until God's light shines on their hearts, they won't seek God, and they won't choose Him. They may be "allowed" intimacy, but they are blinded to see it.
I feel the first blind that is taken from someone is what blinds them from the Gospel, the veil that blinds unbelievers.
Anyone else want to give anything?
Remember it is man that has always run from God in His shame from Sin and self awareness. It is God who has pursued Man. Why or how could Man claim credit for finally believing the God who has pursued him and re-established this intimacy that Man no longer trusted in (at such great cost I might add)? But if men ultimately choose to not accept God's provision being provided full revelation -how does this somehow impugn God?? To what purpose does prolonging the period of contemplation for man when he has full revelation (kicking the can down the road-as it were)?? In reference to the above-God gets the credit because of the light shown to those that believe. It is those that do not believe who remain blind (Jn 9:39-41).
MusicLover:
I've given you a hard time publicly before so to balance that out I'm going to give you a :thumbsup: publicly for your contribution to this thread!
:dsunny:
Yes, they are blinded because of unbelief, but no one seeks after Him in the first place.
They will remain blind until...
Luke 3
6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Isaiah 40
4Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Psalm 45
19He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
So what if we desire all to be saved, which He even tells us to pray/desire for? Will He not accomplish that?
Yes all have seen as His grace has appeared to all men; that is why all are accountable; I feel like I am going in circles somewhat; Man, at some point, has to choose; full revelation has been given and man is accountable; man's choice of unbelief does not fault God in anyway; God's love is not diminished by man's choice; all will bow the knee but not through faith......
Let's look at the verse:
Phillipians 2
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Isaiah 45
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Remember how His gifts and calling cannot be returned? And, they're going to be ashamed, not burned or killed.
And why would God be glorified by liars? He tests everyone's hearts. And you cannot confess Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit. And when you confess that, you are saved.
Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1 Corinthians 12
3Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Again I ask, whose will is stronger? Man or God?
Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
Did God subject everything to vanity "just because?" Or was it in hope for everything to be liberated and set free, not just some part of creation?
Romans 11
32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
And again, mercy triumphs over judgment.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 08, 2019, 09:59:55 PM
Isaiah 46
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Even if that read that He "desires" all to be saved, God says He will do what He wants, so nothing will stop that. Even unbelief is part of His plan. Not saying that is from Him, but it will not stop ultimately what He wants to do.
We tend to make God less than what He is, to try to fit Him into a box of doctrines.
Young's Literal Translation:
1 Timothy 2:
1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men: 2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity, 3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, 4
who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- 7 in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.
2 Peter 3:9:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9
Romans 8:
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."e
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If death cannot separate us from God's love, then God, it would seem to me, will still want to save us. We just read above, that that is His wish for us all.
Just some thoughts with corresponding Bible verses.
D.
my contention is not RE: hell; there is also multiple references in the OT and NT to the will of individual man frustrating the will of God (except for judgement)
Quote from: Dandelion on January 14, 2019, 12:31:56 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 08, 2019, 09:59:55 PM
Isaiah 46
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Even if that read that He "desires" all to be saved, God says He will do what He wants, so nothing will stop that. Even unbelief is part of His plan. Not saying that is from Him, but it will not stop ultimately what He wants to do.
We tend to make God less than what He is, to try to fit Him into a box of doctrines.
Young's Literal Translation:
1 Timothy 2:
1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men: 2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity, 3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, 4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- 7 in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.
2 Peter 3:9:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9
Romans 8:
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."e
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If death cannot separate us from God's love, then God, it would seem to me, will still want to save us. We just read above, that that is His wish for us all.
Just some thoughts with corresponding Bible verses.
D.
Interesting for me is this line of thought;
The physical came first for a specific reason- [1 Cor 15;45-49]
The spiritual state of being is more significant and permanent than the physical.
We have no say in being conceived in the physical, yet try to make a claim to being born in the spiritual.
Isaiah states; " Can the pot say to the potter, this is why I am made?
Paul refers to that scripture in Romans.
Paul, even though he is converted as a senior when he is blinded by Christ, says that he was known when he was in his mothers womb; just like the way John the Baptist reacted to Christ when they were still in their mothers womb.
No prophet volunteered for the job.
Abraham was "told" what to do.
Each problem recorded in the OT was when man tried to do something in his own wisdom or tried to take credit for God's provision.
Then the little key for me is where Paul points out that each will come to know this in their appointed/allotted time.
Galations refers to how we are like a prince;
Gal;4;1,2 " The heir is a minor, he differs not at all from a slave,
even though he in fact owns the entire estate.
However, he remains under the care of guardians and managers
UNTIL THE TIME DETERMINED BY HIS FATHER."
Jesus Himself states,
" NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS"
This could all be negative and the old, Why bother then?
As I mentioned earlier, we have no say in our physical, yet never seem to see that as a claim we can make to say we planned our being.
Not having to secure our position relives all failure for me.
Perfect love casts out all fear for a great reason which the flesh cannot fathom.
True equality is through Christ- Not by works so that no one can boast. Which, for me, states not by my faith, but Christ's.
Gal 2;20 Sums all that up when Paul says no longer I but Christ.
Paul then grows and does much through and in Christ. He considered his previous efforts as a thing of the past.
None of this point of view is meant to be negative, rather a pointing out what Christ did for us an why.
In reading all the responses, it seems to me that the question always comes down to whether or not God will allow our free will to choose an alternative to Him.
The more I study the scripture, I find this more unlikely.
God made each of us into His image and likeness. If love never fails, then I would certainly think that He made sure that we recognize Him, for who He is ( I am who I am) at some point in our journey. He knitted us in our mother's womb. He looks for the one lost sheep and leaves the 99 to find us, when we are lost. When we are face to face with Him, we will no longer see through the 'mirror, dimly'.
He told Thomas, you saw and you believe, but blessed are those who do not see, yet still believe.
I don't think there will any non-believers, when we come face to face with God. And, the Bible states, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. And that death cannot keep us from His love. The Bible also states that He wants us all to be saved.
I believe we are all going to make it. There is no sin that is greater than God's love for us. And, I believe, no sinner who can ultimately resist His love. And, I believe He will give us every opportunity to do so.
Yes, we have the ability to use our free will to make choices, but, I don't think that we are wired to ultimately choose an existence without God for eternity. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, I believe, was meant to be for all, and will be for all.
D.
QuoteGod's will is a little more complex. In fact, theologians see three different aspects of God's will in the Bible: His sovereign (decretive) will, His revealed (preceptive) will, and His dispositional will.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 14, 2019, 12:04:08 PM
QuoteGod's will is a little more complex. In fact, theologians see three different aspects of God's will in the Bible: His sovereign (decretive) will, His revealed (preceptive) will, and His dispositional will.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
QuoteAlthough God's heart desires all to be saved, not all are saved
Well, for one they are assuming that.
Number two, why wouldn't God get what He wants? Like the verse I put earlier(Isaiah 46:10), He's declared the end from the beginning, and will do all that He wants. If He is sovereign and wise, would He not find a way to accomplish His desires? Nothing is preventing Him from doing so.
God does not face the problems you or I do. Yet we make it sound that we can accomplish what we want, yet God won't.
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 12, 2019, 05:31:40 PM
Basically I believe the urgency in the Bible is because if we say yes to life, love and God NOW we avoid so much pain, confusion, death, and destruction for OURSELVES and for those we interact with (OTHERS).
:iagree:
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 13, 2019, 10:38:37 PM
MusicLover:
I've given you a hard time publicly before so to balance that out I'm going to give you a :thumbsup: publicly for your contribution to this thread!
:dsunny:
:iagree:
gluecht2, I would like to add that I appreciate your dialogue and especially that you respond in a civil manner which keeps the discussion respectable.
I did a quick search on gluecht to see if maybe it was a common surname (German?), and saw that there is a Christian blog called "glue chat". Is that where your user name comes from? Not that it matters, but I like to try to find out people's real names here (just me!).
Cheers,
Pat
Another "analogy." If someone gets sent to jail, because it is not for an unlimited amount of time, does that mean we should all get ourselves in jail? No! Why? Because it is an
unenjoyable experience.
The whole prison system is flawed, as it does not work to correct anyone, only postpone the problem, and hardens the person. But I think you get the point.
QuoteI don't think there will any non-believers, when we come face to face with God. And, the Bible states, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. And that death cannot keep us from His love. The Bible also states that He wants us all to be saved.
I tend to think the same thing, but I also feel that certain amount won't fully believe at first. Take the Israelites, they saw lots of miracles, yet still did not have enough faith in God. Or even when Jesus did miracles around others, not all of them believed right away, and some "fell away." But, due to how magnificent God really is, maybe face to face would be all that is needed.
Besides, there are some verses that say they will be ashamed, as all their deeds are exposed by His light.
Patinak-thankyou so much for the kind word! I have been party to many on-line discussions and find this group to be exceptionally civil-even friendly. My name is Greg Luecht and I have no association with the aforementioned gluechat.
RE: Dandelion's post-I understand your thoughts. I do not consider myself to be pro-punishment in a vengeful way just in case my posts are interpreted as this. I do, however, see scripture as presenting faith/belief as essential for union with God. The same reasons that accountable-man does not believe today will be the same reasons he will not believe tomorrow. Any other future conditions necessary for further "convincing" would not constitute the faith of this age. That is why scriptures' indication of the full and final revelation to man in Christ is the "cornerstone"(above posts).
I began to look at this in a whole new way, when in study it came to mind the idea, of imagning myself as unsaved and having died, then finding myself awakened (from the grave - others would think of it as being conscious in death, then find myself back in my resurrected (mortal) body).
So in my imagination, there I was, alive after dying, and "the judgment" as Jesus called it, was beginning.
The question was, would I then still not believe? I had to think, faced with the reality that I'd been resurrected and was now in judgment 'day', I would "believe".
After that thought came the idea "what is it that gets ones name enrolled in the book of life?"
And now :Chinscratch: "enrolled" (the Greek) to me seems to be an ongoing recording.. Which is how I think of it. We are only given the barest outine concerning what occurs between Jesus' return and when Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father (per 1 Cor.15:22-28).
And where exactly does it say after death no hope? If we "die in our sins" implies, imo, is to rise still in our sins. (Rev.20) Where, exactly does it say that is a forever unable to ever be changed condition? That is all assumption based on beliefs of the nation's, likely spread out from Babel Tower.
Now if I had, during my lifetime come to hate the idea of God, and couldn't at first recognize the difference between the image of God in my head and heart, and the radiant God of Love and all Good.. I may rebel at the idea initially.. oR, if I had done great evils.. But I had to think that if I wasn't in either of those states, why wouldn't I "believe"?
And isn't that what gets ones name enrolled in the book of life?
The idea that the not yet saved are resurrected and find theirselves in a lake of fire, even aonianly, filled the gap for a while.. but I think it's not quite so simple, as resurrected, tossed to lake.
And if I'd been conscious all the while dead, wouldn't I in all likelihood "believe" by time resurrection?
I know some of us believers believe His coming and the resurrections have occurred, their being individual, not also collective, so likely would not agree with the scenario. And it's perfectly fine for each one of us to have our own understanding, and I trust He can change all of our perceptions as needed until we all, in the day, understand all things pertaining to it with clarity.. meanwhile not allowing ourselves to come under division, from our brothers and sisters. :HeartThrob:
But, bottom line - to me anyway - is Jesus said He will draw ALL to Himself, Jn.12:32. And, logically, I find no reason to doubt His words..
:Peace2: :gsmile:
Lot of great posts in this thread! :girlheart:
PS - amen, gleutcht2, believers of UR/CU (Universal Reconciliation/Christian Universalism) believes no one is saved except through "believing in Christ". What we believe is all will be drawn to Jesus and believing. That "with God all things are possible" and "with, and for God nothing is impossible".
This list of 77 verses is an excellent list of what Christian Universalism believes about the reconciliation of all - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063
:Peace2: God bless!
Quote from: marie glen on January 15, 2019, 05:28:44 PM
PS - amen, gleutcht2, believers of UR/CU (Universal Reconciliation/Christian Universalism) believes no one is saved except through "believing in Christ". What we believe is all will be drawn to Jesus and believing. That "with God all things are possible" and "with, and for God nothing is impossible".
This list of 77 verses is an excellent list of what Christian Universalism believes about the reconciliation of all - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063
:Peace2: God bless!
Nice summation Glenda!
Truly,we are all saved by His Grace. That there would be those weaker in faith as to His extension of that Grace,is a given.
I believe,and am convinced that,just as in Jesus day;those that felt they were 'right' with God had a harder time adjusting to the
extent of that Grace being poured out through Jesus. And that amazingly.....those who were convinced that they were 'wrong' with
God..were more easily convinced they had been made 'right' with God..through that greater extension of Grace and mercy.
I have no desire to ever limit God's grace and mercy unto any man..in any circumstance. Actually,I believe in ever increasing
encompassing Grace and mercy[increasing of His Kingdom]through that very Grace[all3measures]
I have an assured expectation..and I will not be disappointed in Him. Faith,Hope and Love will remain.
Genesis9;9-17 I believe Jesus has cut off the dragon-flood waters of accusation against allmen..that mercy has triumphed overjudgement
Rev 4;3 and10;1a rainbow resembling an emerald encircled the throne....then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven
he was robed with a cloud with a rainbow around his head.
Daniel9;24 Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city toFINISH transgressions TOPUT AN END TO SIN,TO ATONE
you make an end of sin by forgiving and forgetting tresspassesMatthew 18;22I tell you..not seven times but seventy seven times.
:2c:
:2c:I believe...that Jesus bore on the cross..the sins of those who did not know what they do. The sins not yet repented of.
I believe when He prayed from that cross,"Father ,forgive them..they know not what they do"that included sins of ignorance committed
by all,through-out all generations.Thus taking away all thier sin.Clean animals representing men of understanding in this life,unclean
animals representing men who have no understanding in this life.Man,though held in honour,without understanding is like the beast that
perisheth.What God has cleansed no longer call unclean.,therefore call no man unclean[or not covered by Christ's blood]
Peter showed a sheet come down from heaven 3times..withboth clean and unclean beasts..and return back up into heaven[3measures]
in the ark during the flood..both clean and unclean animals lives were preserved.
Rev 11;19 Then God's temple[His body/ark/Word] inHEAVEN WAS OPENED...AND WITHIN HIS TEMPLE WAS SEEN THE
ARK OF HIS COVENAT[yes,He recieves allmens spirits within Himself..mans spirit is one with Him.[and his spirit return unto God]
I believe that is two or three witness in the scriptures.
we have the beast out of the sea[Leviathan]that continually accuses under the law..given a blow to the head[accuser serpent's head
that Jesus crushed...but then the beast come up out of the earth..in the form of a Lamb that speaks like a dragon[accuser again of sin
against men that Jesus bore on thecross] they 'soothe' the dragon/devil mind"by saying men are still responsible for sin..most will
be eternally destroyed..andJesus sacrifice meant little.Thus,HEALING THAT FATAL WOUND JESUS PUT ON SATANS HEAD BY HIS DEATH
AND SACRIFICE.
satan is thrown out of heaven,God no longer heeds him.HE IS LOSING NO-ONE.however..on this earth/satan hascome down..and
uses men of little or no understanding to accuse!!!Lambs that speak as dragons. Thisis christendom..not Buddha,muslims etc.
the saints were overcome..and are crushed minds of christ under the dragonsfeet!!!!!They curse men instead of blessing!!!!!
Thanks Marie and Sheila for your thoughtful responses. It has been my experience (being new to this thought line) that the conclusions reached by UR/CU are thought provoking for sure. These conclusions have led me to formulate responses with care and with scriptural principles in mind. Having said that, I find that these conclusions depend on significant thought-lines of scripture to be treated as "symbolic" and/or are not sufficiently incorporated into the scheme. I find that some plain meanings of references to be abandoned for "deeper" interpretation that fits UR/CU. As I have stated in earlier posts in this and the Judas thread, these tendencies appear to be more eisegesis than exegesis to me. Ironically this contention has been directed my way as my more "mainline" conclusions are representative of the "standard" church and therefore lacking. My overarching concern with UR/CU conclusions is that they do not reflect the urgency, that is plain in scripture, of Man's need for Christ as Savior in this age. UR/CU conclusions can contribute to the already existing laissez-faire attitude pervasive in non-believers. To make clear: evangelizing with the tone of "turn-or-burn" is neither what the Gospel is and not what I subscribe to. But the revelation that I have been entrusted with is not in agreement with UR/CU conclusions. I do not expect anybody to take my word of course. I will say though that, in response to my request for wisdom RE: UR/CU doctrine, God gave me a dream indicating not to pursue this and for the proponents of UR/CU to venture to "own" what scripture states (I understand this to mean to allow scripture to speak for itself with plain meanings and allow the Spirit's help rather than follow the trend established in these pages). I do not mean to be arrogant in the slightest but am attempting to pass on what has been given me. I encourage all to seek wisdom from God directly RE: this and any other issues of doctrine or life :Peace2:. Blessings to all bro's and sisses.
I think that is why we should "test every spirit" to know whether it is from God or not. Obviously God knows you more than what I or others do, so it is basically between you and Him.
I do believe there is an "urgency" but that does not mean God won't accomplish what He desires. I feel because we are saying they won't have "eternal" consequences, that you take it to mean no urgency.
For interpretation, that thing I mainly like to do is put verses together. No "crazy imagination" needed. I think verses do have a symbolic meaning, but I always see ones that bring up symbolism are always against the literal. I just think, why not both? He gives pieces of the puzzle to different people, we should not think the foot can operate on its own, and try not to say that a literal meaning shouldn't belong. But I digress.
Basically the 2 or 3 witnesses to a truth in Scripture.
Again, I think people will reap what they sow. But I think of it as a lesson. Lessons have a purpose, and the trials in that aren't an end to itself, but always points to God.
Something just popped in my head. Maybe it means it is not your time to know this yet.
your last thought is not consistent with the answer of my question of God; also remember believer's have an unction from the Holy Spirit and we know all truth; we only need to seek and we will find
believers know all truth? I believe we know THE truth - Jesus - and have access to whatever other truths HE wants and allows us to find - according to His will and timing. For example, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter." Also, "we see through a glass darkly"...
I do believe many things are written "plainly" in scripture. I also believe many other things are symbolic, metaphorical, etc., and require digging, interpretation (rightly dividing), and revelation and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I used to be an ET proponent. Since God showed me UR, I've questioned a few times, with His answer being "I've already shown you".
How would you reconcile God's answer to me, with His answer/dream to you? Is one of us not truly hearing from Him, or is it possible there's an answer/timing for a purpose for you and another for me and vice-versa - or something else?
:thumbsup:Jesus told His disciples,'I have much more to tell you,but you can not bear them at present" Go in peace,my brother..
and maybe we shall come togather again at another time. :girlheart:
ps I believe His word to you was..not to pursue it[unable to bear]..that we must journey [venture]on to possess[own] all these promises of
His in the scriptures. Never-the-less..each man according to his faith. :girlheart:
:thumbsup:
Jabcat I would ask you that same question; also scripture states he gives wisdom liberally to all who ask (Ja 1:5); this an example of what I stated about eisegesis; these contentions that God is "holding back" for my own good may fit for you folks but it does not wash with scripture; Christ stated to the Apostles about not bearing further info before His crucifixion and before the Holy Spirit indwelt believers; believers are also possessors of the "mind of Christ" (1Cor 2:10-16)
OK, I'll agree to go first even though I didn't make the original assertion. :Peace2: My answer is likely, timing - His.
There's also a possibility that one of us isn't hearing accurately, or are so entrenched in our held beliefs that our own thoughts influence what's being said. I don't know, I just thought it was a reasonable question since you said you/we know all truth and God showed you something. :dontknow: So if 2 believers "hear" 2 opposite things, it seems to me it's worth exploring/asking why that might be.
"Giving liberally", IMO, does not mean "all truth". Further, being "guided into all truth" seems to have a significant list of corresponding scriptures, that would seem to culminate with this, IMO; "Each believer is led into all the truth necessary to his own state and condition, to enable him to do his duty and work (Eph. 4:7). Christ gives to each according to his measure and needs."
But anyway, I don't want this to degenerate into a debate. If you care to explore the above question, that's fine. But if you simply don't believe in Ultimate Reconciliation through the cross of Christ, if you're wrong now, you'll know some day. And if I'm wrong now, I'll know some day.
liberally is my word meaning without limit-we know ALL truth (1Jn 2:20)
edited/added to my post, including the last line, apparently while you were typing. My bad..new/further thoughts..
I will bring some of what you didn't address and/or what I'd added down here , if you care to respond;
-------
OK, I'll agree to go first even though I didn't make the original assertion. :Peace2: My answer is likely, timing - His.
There's also a possibility that one of us isn't hearing accurately, or are so entrenched in our held beliefs that our own thoughts influence what's being said. I don't know, I just thought it was a reasonable question since you said you/we know all truth and God showed you something. :dontknow: So if 2 believers "hear" 2 opposite things, it seems to me it's worth exploring/asking why that might be.
Further, being "guided into all truth" seems to have a significant list of corresponding scriptures, that would seem to culminate with this, IMO; "Each believer is led into all the truth necessary to his own state and condition, to enable him to do his duty and work (Eph. 4:7). Christ gives to each according to his measure and needs."
Quote from: gluecht2 on January 16, 2019, 02:28:04 AM
liberally is my word meaning without limit-we know ALL truth (1Jn 2:20)
Doing a little digging into this scripture;
from Ray Stedman; "The King James Version, in Verse 20 says, "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." Now that is certainly not what John wrote. He did not say of Christians, "You know all things." That would make Christians "know-it-alls" and there is nothing more universally obnoxious than a "know-it-all." Christians obviously do not know all things. The correct rendering, adopted by the Revelationised Standard Version, is "you all know." Because of the anointing which you have received from Jesus Christ, the Holy One, you all know."
There are other seemingly valid interpretations/commentaries other than "believers know everything/have all knowledge".
Just a couple verses past that, it says this"
1Jn 2:27 The anointing you received from God abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you this. Instead, because God's anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.
And some other related verses:
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you.
Psa 25:8 The LORD is good and just; therefore he will teach sinners concerning the way.
Psa 25:9 He will guide the humble to justice; he will teach the humble his way.
Jas 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him.
Now, if we "knew all things" already, why would we ask and pray for more? Maybe if it is "knowing all things" it has to do with this:
Mat 6:33 But first be concerned about God's kingdom and his righteousness, and all of these things will be provided for you as well.
Mat 6:34 So never worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
Quote from: gluecht2 on January 15, 2019, 11:32:13 PM
Thanks Marie and Sheila for your thoughtful responses. It has been my experience (being new to this thought line) that the conclusions reached by UR/CU are thought provoking for sure. These conclusions have led me to formulate responses with care and with scriptural principles in mind. Having said that, I find that these conclusions depend on significant thought-lines of scripture to be treated as "symbolic" and/or are not sufficiently incorporated into the scheme. I find that some plain meanings of references to be abandoned for "deeper" interpretation that fits UR/CU. As I have stated in earlier posts in this and the Judas thread, these tendencies appear to be more eisegesis than exegesis to me. Ironically this contention has been directed my way as my more "mainline" conclusions are representative of the "standard" church and therefore lacking. My overarching concern with UR/CU conclusions is that they do not reflect the urgency, that is plain in scripture, of Man's need for Christ as Savior in this age. UR/CU conclusions can contribute to the already existing laissez-faire attitude pervasive in non-believers. To make clear: evangelizing with the tone of "turn-or-burn" is neither what the Gospel is and not what I subscribe to. But the revelation that I have been entrusted with is not in agreement with UR/CU conclusions. I do not expect anybody to take my word of course. I will say though that, in response to my request for wisdom RE: UR/CU doctrine, God gave me a dream indicating not to pursue this and for the proponents of UR/CU to venture to "own" what scripture states (I understand this to mean to allow scripture to speak for itself with plain meanings and allow the Spirit's help rather than follow the trend established in these pages). I do not mean to be arrogant in the slightest but am attempting to pass on what has been given me. I encourage all to seek wisdom from God directly RE: this and any other issues of doctrine or life :Peace2:. Blessings to all bro's and sisses.
I think humans are very prone to making literal what's metaphor - gehenna, would be an example. But worse than that, to me anyway, is the metaphoring what is literal! Yes, I absolutely believe it undermines the UR/CU message.
I also believe judgment along with judgment 'day' to be absolutely literal. Along with "fiery" judgment.. after all Jude said the example of eternal judgment is that which befell Sodom and Gomorrah. (I might add, that man's own modern day capabilities, are able to result in those exact occurrences.)
Literal also, when Jesus said if He was lifted up from the Earth - referring to the manner of His death - He would draw all to Him, In 12:32. Also if we carefully read 1 Cor. 15:22-28.. extremely literal. And verses about what God wants and if His will can be blocked or prevented, very literal.
Wheat gathered into His barn and tares gathered to be burned - at His return when "every eye sees Him / literal - is metaphor for the gathering of those that are His at His return, and (I'm) the gathering of the godless of the nation's gathering to Arageddon.
I totally agree that the idea that because 5 words were translated into hell - an ancient spiritual/political belief of the nations - including "pit" which accompanying verses say consists of dust and worms as a bed and blanket, is no reason to place man's thoughts about the Word, above the Word! Which is exactly what I think "too much" metaphor does. Even if it is well intentioned, it sometimes actually contradicts, or adds to or takes away from God's Word!
I'm a happy down to Earth gal. I believe the lion will literally eat strawlime the ox and the bear with the cow, Isaiah 11:7. I believe God's throne, whatever that totality is, will literally come to Earth. And I believe God the Father will literally make all things new, and will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:22-28!). [How can we Christian's Universalists expect folks to take all such verses as literal, if we metaphor everything else!?]
God bless! :Peace2: :girlheart:
P.S. - I believe there will be lots of literal weeping and gnashing of teeth, even outer darkness, on 'day' of judgment, even burning shame and terror for some.. The second resurrection - of all not saved during their lifetime, thus they rise "still in their sin" - is FAR surpassed in quality and joy, etc, by the one of all believers which rise at His return. Initially FAR less joyful than that of believers. But with the eventual outcome that all would be baptized with fire (of heartfelt repentance) like we were too.
[If it's a matter of choice, how did those who never heard about Jesus, make the choice one way or the other? Do they ever get the chance to 'choose'? The root word of logic, is logos..] :gsmile:
I also believe Jesus warned Israel about fiery judgment/gehenna which was coming in 70a.d. and John the Baptist did too, summing it up very well, "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?!" -- But that is said to be metaphor for 'hell,. Well, looking back, it was obviously literal. I also believe the world is warned about coming fiery judgment upon man's corrupt system(s) and empires, as not built on the Rock, they cannot endure. Oh yes, I believe Armageddon battle in gehenna valley outside Israel will be literal and very much 'hellish'--the metaphor.
God bless! :gsmile: :girlheart:
I will touch on Musiclover first and more fully digest and react to Marie Glen later (that's a long one Marie-LOL); in short believers know all truth in their S(s)pirits by faith; all we need do is ask in faith without double mindedness (James); that is what is meant by the mind of Christ and believers knowing all truth; the Holy Spirit will reveal to us what is Christ's and lead us into all truth (Jn16:13-15 and others) and the Holy Spirit is within believers (Rom 8:9); as mentioned above He does not withhold wisdom which is the application of knowledge/truth: this is consistent with what I understand you to be saying-I agree with much of your statements; this however is not consistent with the former assertions of God withholding from one "for his own good" as applied above; the above thoughts are also very consistent with "know all truth" in 1Jn 2:20 but as you know basing doctrine on just one verse is not solid exegesis (this theme can be more fully developed with addt'l references to the above also); Eph 4:7 in context is speaking of Spiritual gifts and their distribution within the body for the body-I believe not fully pertinent to what we are discussing
I think the main thing about prayer is this: we pray for His will to be done. This includes all aspects, whether big or small.
Is it His will to give you understanding without preparing you to receiving it? Or does He do things on His timing? I take that into account for all the verses regarding asking for things.
And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, [everything in heaven and earth must be in accord with God's will {His purpose and plan, Eph. 1:11} or it won't happen] He hears us: And if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him" (I John 5:14-15).
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 17, 2019, 03:32:24 AM
Is it His will to give you understanding without preparing you to receiving it? Or does He do things on His timing? I take that into account for all the verses regarding asking for things.
Yeah, obviously (to me), we don't LITERALLY currently possess all knowledge. Believers do know THE Truth, Jesus. And we have access to any and all truth it's HIS WILL for us to have, in His timing and according to His will.
ML (and others) what do you think about this? That even though the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, we can ALL miss the message or leading for a time until we are shown better later. So that perhaps being led into
absolutely ALL truth - won't even occur in this age. Actually, that's my "guess" - that we get what we're open to and given now and/or whatever we need according to His will - but get the rest in the renewal/next age. :Chinscratch:
Otherwise, there'd be no differences of opinions (Paul and Barnabas), no growing in grace and KNOWLEDGE, no studying to show yourself approved, seeing through a glass darkly, etc. Hey! Also, I've never been wrong about anything, I just didn't know it. ;) :rolllol:
I think of a couple things:
Maybe we "know" all things, but we cannot see what we are given? But that wouldn't make sense, because some verses say He will give more things, like wisdom or His Spirit, or gifts.
Maybe it is like a seed? We are given "all things"(all the things necessary are in the seed) but it still has to grow.
2 Corinthians 3
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 13
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Just thinking, if we "knew everything" what would we need God for? We could just boast in our own ability, including the amount of knowledge and wisdom.
Yeah not sure, but I like what you're doing there. IOW, IMO, there's "more to the story"/all the scriptures have to be taken into account and reconciled (rightly divided). For instance, if all believers have all knowledge, it would be impossible for one to believe in ET and the other to believe in UR. So there's either human insufficiency in there somewhere, and/or God's will, timing, purpose involved. :2c:
Knowing, not knowing, being given/not given;
"And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one [servant] who did not know, and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more" (Luke 12:47–48).
Quote from: MusicLover123 on January 17, 2019, 05:07:25 AM
I think of a couple things:
Maybe we "know" all things, but we cannot see what we are given? But that wouldn't make sense, because some verses say He will give more things, like wisdom or His Spirit, or gifts.
Maybe it is like a seed? We are given "all things"(all the things necessary are in the seed) but it still has to grow.
Just thinking, if we "knew everything" what would we need God for? We could just boast in our own ability, including the amount of knowledge and wisdom.
This is interesting, from believethesign; "The first mistake is to pit the Spirit against the Scriptures. Jesus' promise has nothing to do with the Spirit's telling me whom I should marry or what job I should take. That's not what he has in mind when he says the Spirit "will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).
Jesus is talking to the apostles (v. 12). They are the ones who will be led into "all truth." [:doh: - my forgotten line - "who is being primarily addressed and about what"?]
The "all truth" they would receive was not the truth about every bit of knowledge in the universe, from supernovas to DNA. The "truth" refers to the whole truth about everything bound up in Jesus Christ, the way, the truth, and the life. The Spirit will illuminate the things that are to come (John 16:13), not in a predictive sense, but in so far as he will unpack the significance of the events yet to come, namely Jesus' death, resurrection, and exaltation. The Spirit, speaking for the Father and the Son, will help the apostles remember what Jesus said and understand the true meaning of who Jesus is and what he accomplished (John 14:26).
Unless believers do know all truth literally, and people who believe in UR aren't truly saved wink wink
:punish:
:spank:
:laugh:
Here's an interesting thought from Elliot; an attempt to rightly divide/reconcile a whole of scripture -
He will guide you into all truth.--Better, . . . into all the truth. The words do not mean that the Holy Spirit will fully guide them into truth, but that He will be their guide into the fullness of truth. [They would grow, mature - similar to "being perfect", translated more accurately as 'mature'.]
The word rendered "guide," occurs again in Matthew 15:14; Luke 6:39; Revelation 7:17; and metaphorically, as here, in Acts 8:31. A comparison of these passages will show that its meaning is "to point out the way," "to lead one on his way." The fullness of truth is for the disciples an unknown territory. They are spiritually as blind men, feeling after the truth, but not able to see it. The Spirit of Truth will take them by the hand, and, step by step, as they have strength to follow, will guide them into the territory, and unfold to them the treasures it contains. The promise has a special meaning for the disciples to whom it was spoken; but it holds good for every disciple who seeks to know the truth.
Oh well, I'm personally pretty settled on that. As for the OP, I think marie was getting at, God has a will - that all be saved - and whatever He wills will be accomplished.
Every knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.
"How can I be saved?". ^^ "Believe on the Lord, confess with your mouth..."
all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/
Great discussion guys! (Aka, brothers, but I'm a bit of a hillbilly and aways think 'guys'.. which to me is male and female..) :dontknow:
Ok, here's a crazy idea, I've had for quite a long time now. It's the verses in revelation :mblush: in chapter 7. (Was it here there was a thread on the sealing of the foreheads of 144,000 of Israel.. :doh: ? ...no I don't think so..)
I have thought for a long time that this scene of 2 crowds is metaphor. And not actual appearance before the throne of God, as some believers tend to think(?)
Just previous, something new had been released (seal 6 in chapter 6) then it was paused (or so it seems to me) and during that pause, a great crowd too many to number from every nation, etc. had been (imho) sealed - upon/within their foreheads. And before the pause is interrupted, 144,000 (counted/numbered) are also sealed.
Notice Mt. 23:39 - Jesus said, Jerusalem! You will not see me again, until, you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'cross reference, rev.12, an insert, v17
To make this long winded question a little shorter, a "sealing on the forehead"..? Which has to do with virginal.. / pure. Pure foreheads?
Our hearts have been sealed - we are not our own. :dsunny: :cloud9:
If all are being made into the likeness of Jesus - He being the prototype! The Master plan! - isn't it logical our mind (and very psyche) should also be sealed unto God..? ...yep, I think a spiritual virgin who follows the Lord wherever He goes, is one who has been given clarity - not from supernovas to DNA (great line jabcat!) but of His word/truth of what God is doing. So I think all of us believers are undergoing a "process" ( :thumbsup: ) of having our minds, thoughts, ways of thinking, etc. sealed. ...as opposed to the world's forehead of 'babble'/ mystery, babble.. all confusion and untruth "responsible for all slain upon Earth".
:girlheart:
:2c:grow into the fullness of Christ..grow like the'seed'...in wisdom and understanding and truth from above.
:2c:we were all sealed at our creation..when God made man in His image and likeness..it was a seal.Trees and grass have been
hurt by volcanoes/droughts/hail/winds and such since the beginning.Forest felled etc.
seven seals on the word only Jesus Christ can open up to us.Seven letters with emblems of those
who have His approval/andrecieve a'reward[something x-tra]white stone,crown white garment seat etc.
cont'd forinstance Rev 2..Ephesus..thesepeople have persevered in doing right[His comands]Have seen evil men not doing right in the
churches..recognized false apostle's,persevered in the faith.successfully heeding His counsel..and gaining His'ok"gains you more
and overcoming these stumbling situations in your walk.Youwilleat from the TOL on this side[never die]..instead of after you rise
[Wisdomfrom Above]you alsoknow allmen..will be granted this in their order as they rise..ifthey do not attain it on this side.
The Smyrna congregation that heeds that counsel.and deeds have His'ok".are rewarded with the
assurance of their and fellowman's portion..regarding not being hurt of the second death.They receive that Wisdom from AboveThey
know the crown of life is given them on this side..and all men will receive it on the other side.those who have not overcome..are
anxious/doubting over these things on this side.
This is how it works. :2c:
God's "timing"
-sorry Marie about not addressing your post directly. I rejoined the conversation late and thought I would address the issue of what believer's already possess at their disposal
We have received ALL that God gives (In the S(s)pirit through faith)
John 1:16
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Colossians 2:9–10
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
The Holy Spirit and the Son are within the Believer (through faith)
John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:20
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 6:17
But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
Believers "put on" the Son through faith
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Believer's draw on what they already know they possess (through faith)
Matthew 7:7
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew 21:22
"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
Mark 11:24
"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
James 1:5
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
Philemon 6
and I pray that the fellowship of your faith may become effective through the knowledge of every good thing which is in you for Christ's sake.
2 Peter 1:3–4
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 5:14–15
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
Believer's authority is limited to the Will of God (His Word)
James 4:2–3
2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
Exported from Logos Bible Software, 7:12 PM January 17, 2019.
Consider the woman with the issue of blood --she "took" her healing by following the "Laws of faith". Christ did not even know who touched Him-not anything to do with "timing". Also consider the father of the "epileptic boy" who said to Christ "help me if you can"--what was Christ's reply? How about the mountain being tossed into the sea? (Matt 21:21; Mk 11:23)
Well, there you have it folks! Since believers already know everything, since we believe in UR, we aren't true believers! See you all in the torture chamber!
not sure what your meaning; I do not recall talking at all about what happens after earthly death accept for questioning the contention of UR/CR as problematic; if there is some objection or difference of viewpoint I hope that whatever is put forth would stand scriptural scrutiny; isn't that what were all here for?? it's all gotta fit doesn't it?? please forgive if last post too forcefull??
No, I was being sarcastic. Trying to be funny lol.
But if you're saying that believers already "know" all truth, and you're saying UR is a lie, that we did not actually receive a revelation from God on this. Because under your view, God cannot reveal anything new to someone, since they presumably know everything already. I could switch it around though. UR is one of those truths, but most don't have enough faith to receive that revelation.
Of course it all has to fit. But as Jabcat and others have said, we personally think that once UR is revealed to you, everything fits better together, that everything has a purpose. Not just any purpose, but a purpose for good.
Believers know ALL truth by faith and revelation through His Word. It is not that there is anything addt'l for God to say. There is more for believer's to receive for fuller revelation of what has already been said. It is a matter of man moving closer to God in intimacy. We HAVE received all spiritual blessings; we HAVE received His fullness; all promises ARE yes and amen in Him-which means it is not no or someday; it is only man's unbelief and hardness of heart that stands in the way of full revelation; we see darkly by our limitations not God holding back; Man can only suppress truth that is ALREADY revealed
He has not revealed everything there is in His word though, I think. The fact that we see through the glass/mirror darkly shows that we don't know everything yet, even if God has revealed everything.
John 21
25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
1 Corinthians 15
28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
This is the last verse, speaking of time, of what will happen. Scripture is quite silent on some things, including what we are going to do at the all in all state.
So if UR is one of those truths, according to your view, is it your own stubbornness and hardness of heart the only thing that is stopping you from revelation of it?
Even if everything has been revealed, there are still veils. More then one, I might add. One comes off when we are first drawn to God. But still more things are there that stop us from seeing fully.
So I desire to know more of things I don't know about. Even when fully believing that I will receive, still have not been shown yet. So why haven't I? I'm not trying to suppress the truth, and am earnestly seeking. Seems under your POV, I should have been revealed it already. If it is God's will for someone to be revealed something later, you cannot play the "he did not have enough faith card" whenever you don't get something you want.
I don't think you can ignore the "I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear it now" verse. Everything is in His timing, not ours. Even as a child may want something, and may believe it 100% it will happen, they have to be made ready. Do you give someone power and knowledge you know they cannot handle at the time?
Again, you say God is yes to all His promises. He promises to save the world(His will be done) so won't you believe everything He promises?
Quoteall promises ARE yes and amen in Him
But the assumption is that UR/Christian Universalism is not in His Word - no I don't think He zaps us with new information. I always figure if it can't be found in His Word, not worth wasting time pondering.. nor if it takes massive twists and bends of His Word.
There's tons of assuming due to doctrinal bias passed on through word of mouth/teaching(s).
UR is talking, not about men's fancy about God's Word, even if some folks fall into that pit, it's about God's Word -
Such as - Matthew 5:48 - "...Father in heaven is perfect."
Luke 1:37 - "For with/to God, nothing is impossible".
And having come to them, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me" - Matthew 28:18
"Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness." - Matthew 28:19, Aramaic Bible in Plain English
[Young's Literal Translation - "..disciple all the nations, baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."]
"Go to the whole world and preach the gospel to all mankind" (Greek, ktisis - to all creation) - Mark 16:15 - Is there a verse says the work ends at Jesus' return?
"..and repentance and forgiveness of sins to be proclaimed in His name to all nations, having begun from Jerusalem." Luke 24:47, Berean Study Bible
"He has stretched out his mighty arm and scattered the proud.. He has brought down mighty kings" (plural!) "from their thrones.." from Mary's Song, Luke 1:46-55
"He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, ,who is Lord of all." - Acts 10:36
(And having come to them, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me" - Matthew 28:18)
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I'm sure has been mentioned "you have not chosen Me, but I chose.."
And "He hardens whom He will".. " Potter and the clay.. fashions some vessels for honorable use and others for dishonorable.."
Do all Christian's possess complete clarity? I saw a video of a church where folks were barking like dogs while in all four-an inaccurate cliche/on all four, that is. :gsmile :
A few (more) verses..
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1 (I thought I'd start at the beginning. :gsmile: )
From Isaiah 55 - "(10) For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and do not return there, but water the earth, and make it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, (11) So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."
1 Timothy 2 - "(1)...prayers...be made for all men, ...(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ...(5) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
Ephesians 1 - "(4) just as He chose us in Him.. that we should be holy and without blame .. (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace (8) which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, (9) having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, (10) that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. (11) In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." -- "all - 3956. pas ► pas: all, every, the whole" - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm
Colossians 1 - "(19) For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, (20) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." -- "all things - 3956. pas ► pas: all, every, the whole" - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm
Matthew 13:33 - "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven. Which a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal, until the whole was leavened."
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 - 22 For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all (pas) shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: (1)Christ the firstfruits, afterward (2)those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end(3), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power." (Except the Father's!) "25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, (3)that God may be all(pas,all, the whole) in all(pas).
- "22 For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: (1)Christ the firstfruits, afterward (2)those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end(3), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father... 28 that God may be all, in all."
:Peace2:
Thanks Glenda.
To put it a bit differently, UR basically means holding to and believing all the promises of God. Not just picking and choosing ones that we want to happen.
If God wills to never leave or forsake you, we always trust that it will be fulfilled. If God wills for you(and to work in you) to do a certain job for His Kingdom, we always expect for it to happen and not fail. Yet when God wills all to be saved, somehow now it is wishful thinking?
Someone else's response:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been perfected, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1 Corinthians 13:11-13
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Speaking from my own experience, the first step in my own awakining, was just the beginning. Looking back, I thought Finally, now I have the truth, the whole truth. Almost four years have past, and I can clearly see how ridiculous my thinking really was, because everyday from that point, has been a day of new discoveries in God's word.
Nothing speaks of our uniqueness more, than our individual walk with him. Our past experiences, our willingness to accept and acknowledge we are yet babes in this process of learning, and a keen desire to know more, are all a part of our individual understanding.
How can everyone really be of the same mind on all the mysterious hidden in God's word, when we are All in different stages of the learning process, and like babes we first drink milk, then solids. Crawl, walk, then run. Is growing and maturing in God's ways and understanding any less a process?
To me, what is most important, is to be open and humble to the teacher, accepting that our individual desires and opinions, need to be checked at the door, when we enter the deep mysteries of his words.
There are so many roads to take with all of the verses how about asking a specific question about the points/scriptures raised. I believe that the scripture I have presented has raised significant question on the God's timing issue. How does one reconcile this view with the woman with the issue of blood? I also have not seen any offering that contradicts God's will being frustrated by Man's unbelief and for that matter the explanation of Judas's destiny is wanting at best. That is why I started with it. It all has to fit together. As far as the "all" issue (nations; Israel, men...) that can be explained by figures of speech. I do understand that that is a point of debate depending on what point of view that one start's with. But, again that is why I mention Judas-honestly again your playing gymnastics with the plain meaning. RE: do believer's know all truth-I do not understand your folks issue with that. That is plainly stated in the NT (reviewed above). Of course to have that knowledge do any good it has to be accessed via faith to be brought to one's mind. I asked directly RE: UR/CU and got an answer and that answer does not contradict His Word. So I'll ask how does the woman with the issue of blood square with God's timing issue??
God either controls everything or He does not. What say you??
1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All died in Adam? Nah, just a figure of speech. Not everyone did
"truly" die in Adam, right? Not everyone is a sinner, only some right?
You know what the irony is? You say with the Judas verse we disregard the plain meaning. Yet when it comes to all being saved, you play gymnastics and blame it all on hyperbole. It is quite easy to call all the verses you disagree with metaphor.
The problem with your answer of believers "knowing all truth" is that I and others listed Scriptures that contradict it.
God is either going to have His will be done or He is not. And I say He is.
Honestly, what are you trying to accomplish here? Are you open to discussion, or are you trying to convince people of your view and nothing else?
I will pray RE: the answer to 1Cor 15:22; Cite a specific scripture that is typical of contradicting that believer's do not know all truth; I do not believe you understand my point.
My first reaction to 1Cor 15:22 is that I am immediately aware of Sin and death passing to Man from Adam (all are in Adam and die in Adam)but can you show me elsewhere in scripture where all are in Christ? A true question. Otherwise I will pray for clarity.
I would also turn the tables somewhat and ask a similar question of you. What is your take on Matt 25:46?
This:
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life ageduring.'
Other translations have chastiment or correction.
Ephesians 1
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 3
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ
(Technically not speaking of salvation here, but nice to know everything is created out of/by Christ, and not out of nothing, which I have thought for years.)
Colossians 1
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(There are more verses on being at peace with God, but a good study to put then together.)
Ephesians 3
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named
(Remember that in the name of Jesus ever knee should bow and tongue confess?)
John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day
John 3
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Sorry if I sounded too intense, wanted to try to be a bit more bold.
Here is three I think contradicts us knowing all
1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part
1 Corinthians 13:11-13
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been perfected, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Quote from: gluecht2 on January 19, 2019, 04:22:30 AM
I would also turn the tables somewhat and ask a similar question of you. What is your take on Matt 25:46?
That's easy to answer.
There is
no time in that verse at all.
The correct translation is something similar to:
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into God's punishment: but the righteous into God's life.
As you might know Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and later translated to Hebrew as modern linguists know and early church fathers wrote.
Olam
Olam - H5769
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
Olam is rooted in the word
Alam - H5956
BDB Definition:
1) to conceal, hide, be hidden, be concealed, be secret
1a) (Qal) secret (participle)
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be concealed
1b2) concealed, dissembler (participle)
1c) (Hiphil) to conceal, hide
1d) (Hithpael) to hide oneself
The meaning of the root Alam, is important to fully understand Olam.
Alam clearly has the meaning of an obscure hidden something.
Exod 21:6 Then his master shall bring him to the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or to the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever (olam).
This olam lasts until the slave died. It's was of an obscure duration (olam) because it was unknown how long the slave would live.
Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
...
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever (olam): yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah was only 3 days in the fish but because he didn't know when he would get out it was of obscure duration (olam)
When olam is used as a noun it has the meaning of a period of time with an obscure unknown duration, as in the above verses.
When used as an adjective olam refers to an obscure source. A type, not a duration. An adjective describes something or someone.
Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting (olam) God.
That verse isn't about the age of God. It's about His nature. Nobody really fully knows Him because He's hidden and too complex to understand.
The color red. → Red is an noun.
A red car. → Car is a noun and red is an adjective.
The olam. → Olam is a noun.
The olam God → Olam is an adjective and God is a noun.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (olam) punishment: but the righteous into eternal (olam) life.
Punishment and life are both nouns.
Everlasting and eternal are both adjectives.
I'm fully aware the Greek NT reads aionios and not olam, but the Aramaic NT reads olam. And in the LXX olam is translated as aionios. Click
So the correct translation is:
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into God's punishment:
but the righteous into God's life.
A more literal translation would have something like 'obscure source' but because we know the source is God, I've used God. So Matt 25:46 doesn't mention any duration.
Quote from: gluecht2 on January 19, 2019, 04:14:55 AM
My first reaction to 1Cor 15:22 is that I am immediately aware of Sin and death passing to Man from Adam (all are in Adam and die in Adam)but can you show me elsewhere in scripture where all are in Christ? A true question. Otherwise I will pray for clarity.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.So your view is that the verse is about two groups?
A 100% group that's in Adam and, let's say, a 10% group that's in Christ?
This and surrounding verses are about the success of Christ. He came with a plan/task. Undo the mess that started in the Garden.
The whole chapter is a praising Christ and then suddenly 1Cor 15:22 means: Adam caused 100% to die and Christ managed to redeem about 10% of them?
I'm not a close follower of this forum anymore, but I did some speed reading on your views.
You seem to love the plain meaning of a verse if it supports your view. If it doesn't then it's no longer literal.
You take the last approach with this verse.
In a single verse it states 100% dies and 100% are made alive.
The
only fair approach is that one makes a choice and sticks to it. Take all verses 100% literal and no nagging about context. Or use context for all verses. No cherry picking and changing strategy 10 times a day.
I'm all for context. And so is the HS who inspired Scripture. He said there should be always two or three witnesses. That means that every interpretation is repeated somewhere else in Scripture.
But no, you questions aren't odd or weird. In fact they are extremely common here. We had a lot of attackers here with the same questions. In fact many here once believed in hell as you do.
Especially the Matthew verse you posted is a very common attack. Usually goes like this: We know that the duration for the wicked and blessed are the same. We also know heaven is eternal. So that's why hell is eternal. But there isn't time in that verse. And if we take the Greek it doesn't have to mean equal time. This is an example you quickly change strategy. Time is time, but all isn't all.
Stating it's about hell, clearly shows Scripture is vastly misunderstood. It shows the reader likely never read the OT or knows anything about the Temple. Doesn't even know about patterns.
The fire is the ultimate proof of salvation for all, not debunking it.
You may want to read this and learn how great the Father is. How successful the Son is/was. Really, they are always 777 steps ahead of satan. And no satan didn't win the battle for souls...
God views us as gold. Some fine gold, other golds needs some refining. Refining does require fire. Refining does require brimstone/sulfur. Refining does require smoke going up. Refining does require 'tormenting'. Ain't that great? I've just proven salvation of all by using Revelation 14:10-11 that's usually seen as a great weapon to destroy UR. The refining is all over the NT
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html
Use your free will to stay in the dark or switch on the light :2c:
Re: the woman with the blood issue touching Jesus's garment:
She was instantly healed, she wasn't instantly revealed all truth.
Also re: believers revealed all truth:
Have you spent time around other denominations of Christianity?
They all say Jesus is lord so they must have the HS right?
So why do they all differ so much in their doctrine and beliefs?
Edit: all of the Pentecostals, Baptists, Catholics and Lutherans I am friends with have what they feel is biblical support/bible passages or verses that support their belief.
And re: private revelation:
Most of us have believed in hell in the past.
Read Roger Tutt's bio for an excellent example of this.
I personally had a "saved" spiritual experience (though I don't call it that) where I was changed after.
Then a few years later after being tormented by the idea of hell, I had a spiritual experience where I received revelation that there is no hell.
Many have similar experiences, either sudden or gradual, where the HS led is to this belief.
I've slowly over time come to know other spiritual truths that I didn't have before. I'm growing in faith, hope and love. It's a process, and God is not a genie.
Isaaih 46;10 I make known the end from the beginning,from ancient times what is still to come.
I SAY.."MY PURPOSE WILL STAND,AND I WILL DO ALL THAT I PLEASE
v 12LISTEN TO ME YE STUBBORN HEARTED,YOU WHO ARE FAR FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS
I AM BRINGING MY SALVATION NEAR,IT IS NOT FAR AWAY,AND MY SALVATION WILL NOT BE DELAYED
I WILL GRANT SALVATION TO ZION,MY SPLENDOUR TO ISRAEL
Isaaih 47Go down sit in thedust..virgin daughter of Babylon,sit on the ground without a throne,daughter of the Babylonians
v 3..your nakedness[sin] will be exposed and your shame uncovered.[bound up all men in disobedience]
v5 Sit in silence.......no more will you be called Queen of kingdoms!
I was angry with my people and give them into your hand....and YOU SHOWED THEM NO MERCY
even on the aged..you laid a very heavy yoke
v 8 NOW THEN LISTEN YOU WANTON CREATURE....LOUNGING IN YOUR SECURITY..ANDSAYING TO YOURSELF
'I am,and there is none besides me"
REV 18;4 COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE,SO THAT YOU WILL NOT SHARE IN HER SINS
SO THAT YOU WILL.NOT RECIEVE ANY OF HER PLAGUES..like eternal hellfire/LOF/death/judgement without mercy,sores[spots]
blemishes/doctrines of demons...DEATH MOURNING AND FAMINE...which is quite a contrast to the good news unto all men of
GREAT JOY..the free gift of eternal life and mercy through Jesus Christ and free water of life/bread of life if you drink will
never hunger or thirst again...and free gift of righteousness from God through Jesus Christ.
Look at the new heaven/earth...He will wipe evry tear from thier eyes...NO MORE DEATH MOURNING CRYING PAIN[REV 21]
I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW
REV 21;5 He who was seated on the throne said; 'I AM MAKING EVERYTHING NEW!"Then He said."WRITE THIS WORD DOWN
FOR THESE WORDS ARE TRUSTWORTHY AND TRUE :2c: