Father’s will

[sheila]

John5;20 Forjust as the Father raises the dead..AND GIVES THEM LIFE,even so,the son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

[gluecht2]

Sovereign means all powerfull not all controlling;  God's will for Mankind will be come to pass.   That is still true even though each individual man may not accept God's grace in Christ.   This grace HAS indeed appeared to all men but it is up to each individual to accept the gift (note HAS is past tense-this is consistent with the thought in previous comment of His revelation being complete and Man being accountable).

[jabcat]

It won't matter so much if any of us are not truly open/searching, because we can find ways to "explain or explain away" things.  Still, how would tie what you just said into this scripture, Romans 9:16?

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

[MusicLover123]

To go along with Romans 9:16:

James 2
13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

And as I said before, Father has to draw someone to Himself first, in order for someone to seek Him.

Romans 3
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[gluecht2]

Jabcat and Musiclover:  I do not see your statements in conflict with God's Grace described in my last 2 posts.   The chosen are those who have accepted God's mercy and grace.   Man's choice and God's rightful glory are preserved.   I see your statements as reinforcing this point.

[MusicLover123]

A comment on Grace: in Strong's, a key point in the definition is "Divine influence upon the heart."

Let's be honest too, many reject Christianity because of how many portray God. They portray Him as this angry schizophrenic psychopath, who says "love me or burn." He tells you to love your enemies, but won't love His own. Calls Himself love, and merciful, until you mess up in the slightest way. His followers want Him to give them as much forgiveness as possible, but those who reject Him due to how they portray God, they want and delight in as much pain and destruction for unbelievers.

They say "Jesus won" yet they secretly believe He's not going to save much, and doesn't matter to them how bad God treats unbelievers, as long as they themselves are safe.

[MusicLover123]

Or another side to this. People make choice their god, and think that man's will is stronger then God. Yet they don't live the same way in everyday life.

Like if someone had children, if your child did not want to do something, but you know it is good for them, and it will benefit them. They just don't know any better. If they refuse at first, do you just stand around and let it happen, fully knowing it will bring great pain? Of course not! Why do we try to make God less than a parent?

Unbelievers don't reject God for the most part, they reject how most of His followers portray Him as. They don't want eternal torture or death! They want to hold on to the flesh and sinful desires, but if they even had a taste of God's goodness and Grace, there is no way they would reject it. They don't fully know God, so how would they know any better, just as a child doesn't fully understand a Parent's reasons and choices?

I'm not trying to minimize sin, they will be chastised for wrongdoing. But there is purpose to it all, destruction is never God's last word. He doesn't destroy something without the purpose of rebuilding it better, and on better foundation(Christ.)

Same with being saved. It is not forced confession, as God is not glorified by liars. But it is inevitable. And it is for their own good.

[gluecht2]

I understand your point to a point....   I agree and have been exposed to the "standard" church line also.   But that is not the God of His Word (scripture/Christ).   Sin is no longer an issue (peace on earth, goodwill towards Man....) between God and Man because of Christ.   Sin however does have earthly consequences and also provides a foothold for the Devil's accusation toward Man.   Sin does not change God's view of Man for God sees believers in/by/through Christ.   Sin does however affect how man sees God.   God has taken away the barrier between Man and Himself.   We are no longer judged for Sin-but we will be accountable for rejecting the solution.   It is Man's choice and God has provided all the revelation that we need.

[MusicLover123]

I probably did not make it clear, but I don't believe what I wrote is how God truly is, but most believe that view of God and reject it, because they do not know God fully.

I believe the veil is taken away, but you have to be in Christ first, the veil is not taken away from anyone until they are in Christ. And it is a gift from God, so that no one can boast, and I think this includes "choosing God" first, because then we can boast on how much wisdom we have, or arguments, or self will.

2Co 3:14  However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah is that veil removed.
2Co 3:15  Yet even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
2Co 3:16  But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

We all reap what we sow, but I think it will never be "eternal consequences" but limited in time. This is a judgement, and it has a purpose. But mercy triumphs over that. No one escapes judgement(unless there are harsher judgements for some that others don't need) , believers just go through it first.

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Heb 3:6  but the Messiah was faithful as the Son in charge of God's household, and we are his household if we hold on to our courage and the hope in which we rejoice.

There may be "enough revelation" but remember that most are still blinded to the Gospel. And even as believers, we still see through the glass darkly.

[gluecht2]

I understand you to say that in choosing to believe God we can then claim credit??   If that is true (which I nor I believe scripture indicates),  what is the difference whenever man believes.   By this logic anytime he accepts will be a time for boasting (whether on earth or after).  The veil/barrier of Sin HAS been torn/removed between God and Man (see previous post) allowing intimacv with God.   No longer is there the barrier of Sin.  We are in union with the Messiah when we believe what God says in His Word (scripture/Made Flesh).   God's light in the Messiah overtakes the darkness.   Faith does come from outside of Man but it is through believing/accepting His Word which is a choice(Rom 10:17).  As far as Man's awareness of God- does not Rom 1:18-20 paint a different picture?     

[MusicLover123]

2 Corinthians 4
3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Unbelievers are blinded, so even if it is "clear to see" for them, they are still blinded from seeing this. Until they are drawn, and until God's light shines on their hearts, they won't seek God, and they won't choose Him. They may be "allowed" intimacy, but they are blinded to see it.

I feel the first blind that is taken from someone is what blinds them from the Gospel, the veil that blinds unbelievers.

Anyone else want to give anything?

[gluecht2]

Remember it is man that has always run from God in His shame from Sin and self awareness.  It is God who has pursued Man.   Why or how could Man claim credit for finally believing the God who has pursued him and re-established this intimacy that Man no longer trusted in (at such great cost I might add)?   But if men ultimately choose to not accept God's provision being provided full revelation -how does this somehow impugn God??  To what purpose does prolonging the period of contemplation for man when he has full revelation (kicking the can down the road-as it were)?? In reference to the above-God gets the credit because of the light shown to those that believe.  It is those that do not believe who remain blind (Jn 9:39-41).

[GodIsLove]

MusicLover:

I've given you a hard time publicly before so to balance that out I'm going to give you a  :thumbsup: publicly for your contribution to this thread!

:dsunny:

[MusicLover123]

Yes, they are blinded because of unbelief, but no one seeks after Him in the first place.

They will remain blind until...

Luke 3
6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Isaiah 40
4Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.


Psalm 45
19He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

So what if we desire all to be saved, which He even tells us to pray/desire for? Will He not accomplish that?

[gluecht2]

Yes all have seen as His grace has appeared to all men;   that is why all are accountable;   I feel like I am going in circles somewhat;   Man, at some point, has to choose;  full revelation has been given and man is accountable;   man's choice of unbelief does not fault God in anyway;   God's love is not diminished by man's choice;   all will bow the knee but not through faith......

[MusicLover123]

Let's look at the verse:

Phillipians 2
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Isaiah 45
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Remember how His gifts and calling cannot be returned? And, they're going to be ashamed, not burned or killed.

And why would God be glorified by liars? He tests everyone's hearts. And you cannot confess Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit. And when you confess that, you are saved.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Corinthians 12
3Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Again I ask, whose will is stronger? Man or God?

Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Did God subject everything to vanity "just because?" Or was it in hope for everything to be liberated and set free, not just some part of creation?

Romans 11
32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

And again, mercy triumphs over judgment.

[Dandelion]

Isaiah 46
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Even if that read that He "desires" all to be saved, God says He will do what He wants, so nothing will stop that. Even unbelief is part of His plan. Not saying that is from Him, but it will not stop ultimately what He wants to do.

We tend to make God less than what He is, to try to fit Him into a box of doctrines.

Young's Literal Translation:

1 Timothy 2:

1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men: 2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity, 3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, 4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- 7 in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.

2 Peter 3:9:

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9

Romans 8:

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."e
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


If death cannot separate us from God's love, then God, it would seem to me, will still want to save us. We just read above, that that is His wish for us all.

Just some thoughts with corresponding Bible verses.

D. 

[gluecht2]

my contention is not RE: hell;  there is also multiple references in the OT and NT to the will of individual man frustrating the will of God (except for judgement)

[MusicLover123]

Isaiah 46
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Even if that read that He "desires" all to be saved, God says He will do what He wants, so nothing will stop that. Even unbelief is part of His plan. Not saying that is from Him, but it will not stop ultimately what He wants to do.

We tend to make God less than what He is, to try to fit Him into a box of doctrines.

Young's Literal Translation:

1 Timothy 2:

1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men: 2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity, 3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, 4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- 7 in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.

2 Peter 3:9:

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9

Romans 8:

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."e
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


If death cannot separate us from God's love, then God, it would seem to me, will still want to save us. We just read above, that that is His wish for us all.

Just some thoughts with corresponding Bible verses.

D.

[Ross]

Interesting for me is this line of thought;
                                                          The physical came first for a specific reason- [1 Cor 15;45-49]
                                                       
                                                          The spiritual state of being is more significant and permanent than the physical.

We have no say in being conceived in the physical, yet try to make a claim to being born in the spiritual.

Isaiah states; " Can the pot say to the potter, this is why I am made?
Paul refers to that scripture in Romans.
Paul, even though he is converted as a senior when he is blinded by Christ, says that he was known when he was in his mothers womb; just like the way John the Baptist reacted to Christ when they were still in their mothers womb.
No prophet volunteered for the job.
Abraham was "told" what to do.
Each problem recorded in the OT was when man tried to do something in his own wisdom or tried to take credit for God's provision.
Then the little key for me is where Paul points out that each will come to know this in their appointed/allotted time.
Galations refers to how we are like a prince;
                                                     Gal;4;1,2 " The heir is a minor, he differs not at all from a slave,
                                                                      even though he in fact owns the entire estate.
                                                                      However, he remains under the care of guardians and managers
                                                                      UNTIL THE TIME DETERMINED BY HIS FATHER."

Jesus Himself states,
                            " NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS"

This could all be negative and the old, Why bother then?
As I mentioned earlier, we have no say in our physical, yet never seem to see that as a claim we can make to say we planned our being.
Not having to secure our position relives all failure for me.

Perfect love casts out all fear for a great reason which the flesh cannot fathom.

True equality is through Christ- Not by works so that no one can boast. Which, for me, states not by my faith, but Christ's.
Gal 2;20 Sums all that up when Paul says no longer I but Christ.
Paul then grows and does much through and in Christ. He considered his previous efforts as a thing of the past.

None of this point of view is meant to be negative, rather a pointing out what Christ did for us an why.


                                                         

[Dandelion]

In reading all the responses, it seems to me that the question always comes down to whether or not God will allow our free will to choose an alternative to Him.

The more I study the scripture, I find this more unlikely.

God made each of us into His image and likeness. If love never fails, then I would certainly think that He made sure that we recognize Him, for who He is ( I am who I am) at some point in our journey. He knitted us in our mother's womb. He looks for the one lost sheep and leaves the 99 to find us, when we are lost. When we are face to face with Him, we will no longer see through the 'mirror, dimly'.

He told Thomas, you saw and you believe, but blessed are those who do not see, yet still believe.

I don't think there will any non-believers, when we come face to face with God. And, the Bible states, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. And that death cannot keep us from His love. The Bible also states that He wants us all to be saved.

I believe we are all going to make it. There is no sin that is greater than God's love for us. And, I believe, no sinner who can ultimately resist His love. And, I believe He will give us every opportunity to do so.

Yes, we have the ability to use our free will to make choices, but, I don't think that we are wired to ultimately choose an existence without God for eternity. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, I believe, was meant to be for all, and will be for all.

D.

[WhiteWings]

God's will is a little more complex. In fact, theologians see three different aspects of God's will in the Bible: His sovereign (decretive) will, His revealed (preceptive) will, and His dispositional will.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html

[MusicLover123]

God's will is a little more complex. In fact, theologians see three different aspects of God's will in the Bible: His sovereign (decretive) will, His revealed (preceptive) will, and His dispositional will.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html

Although God's heart desires all to be saved, not all are saved

Well, for one they are assuming that.

Number two, why wouldn't God get what He wants? Like the verse I put earlier(Isaiah 46:10), He's declared the end from the beginning, and will do all that He wants. If He is sovereign and wise, would He not find a way to accomplish His desires? Nothing is preventing Him from doing so.

God does not face the problems you or I do. Yet we make it sound that we can accomplish what we want, yet God won't.

[Patinak]

Basically I believe the urgency in the Bible is because if we say yes to life, love and God NOW we avoid so much pain, confusion, death, and destruction for OURSELVES and for those we interact with (OTHERS). 

:iagree:

MusicLover:

I've given you a hard time publicly before so to balance that out I'm going to give you a  :thumbsup: publicly for your contribution to this thread!

:dsunny:

:iagree:

gluecht2, I would like to add that I appreciate your dialogue and especially that you respond in a civil manner which keeps the discussion respectable.
 
I did a quick search on gluecht to see if maybe it was a common surname (German?), and saw that there is a Christian blog called "glue chat".  Is that where your user name comes from?  Not that it matters, but I like to try to find out people's real names here (just me!).
Cheers,
Pat

[MusicLover123]

Another "analogy." If someone gets sent to jail, because it is not for an unlimited amount of time, does that mean we should all get ourselves in jail? No! Why? Because it is an unenjoyable experience.

The whole prison system is flawed, as it does not work to correct anyone, only postpone the problem, and hardens the person. But I think you get the point.

I don't think there will any non-believers, when we come face to face with God. And, the Bible states, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. And that death cannot keep us from His love. The Bible also states that He wants us all to be saved.

I tend to think the same thing, but I also feel that certain amount won't fully believe at first. Take the Israelites, they saw lots of miracles, yet still did not have enough faith in God. Or even when Jesus did miracles around others, not all of them believed right away, and some "fell away." But, due to how magnificent God really is, maybe face to face would be all that is needed.

Besides, there are some verses that say they will be ashamed, as all their deeds are exposed by His light.