Father’s will

[marie glen]

It’s interesting to me to read commentaries which talk about how believers were/are given to Jesus by the Father and how “none and nothing can prevent the will of Gid” that Jesus cannot lose one who believes in Him because it’s the Father’s will which cannot be negated in any way.. that “all given to Jesus by the Father can’t be lost”.

Yet they miss how it says Jesus was given dominion over all things (to subdue, presently). Aren’t all people included in “all things”?

It was always like ripples in a pond.. Israel was told they were to bear the Light and the nations would come to the light.. And (by extension) the next ripple is UR.

Which the scripture - ”As through Adam all die, evenso, shall all through Christ live. But each in their own order” - like ripples in a pond? Jesus, the Firstfruits - birthed by Israel - the Rock thrown into the pond (lol) ..”THEN those that are His at His coming, then comes the end when the all things have been subdued.. that God may be all in all. Like three ripples in a pond..

Israel, in large part couldn’t perceive the next ripple.. tho it sure was clear to Isaiah - and now, today, Christians in large part, cannot perceive the next extension/ripple.

..It just seems ironic reading commentators going on about how nothing can obstruct God’s will. But they (seem to) miss how the scriptures say it is His will all be saved, and they insist He is unable to bring about the redemption of all. (Mt.13:33? Parable of the leaven hidden in three measures of meal..)

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/6-39.htm

[gluecht2]

As far as frustrating God's will: Mark 6:5-6 seems to indicate that Man's unbelief can stand in the way of God's will.

[sheila]

God rewards faith..and adds more to it. He said 'ye neither enter in,but hinder those trying to enter in.""amazed at their lack of faith

in God's goodness...His desire to forgive and heal His people.

1 Thess 2;4       :2c:

[MusicLover123]

Isaiah 46
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Even if that read that He "desires" all to be saved, God says He will do what He wants, so nothing will stop that. Even unbelief is part of His plan. Not saying that is from Him, but it will not stop ultimately what He wants to do.

We tend to make God less than what He is, to try to fit Him into a box of doctrines.

[sheila]

 'THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN"  not yelling...emphasis on HIS WORD

 

[marie glen]

As far as frustrating God's will: Mark 6:5-6 seems to indicate that Man's unbelief can stand in the way of God's will.

Amen! But not "forever". Or that is, there's no forever in the verse, just we've gotten in the habit of seeing it in terms of forever..

Jesus said He will draw all to Himself, John 12:32.

This is a an awesome list of verses much like it - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

  :hiya: God bless!

P.S. - amen brother and sister... :girlheart:

[Dandelion]

 5 And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.

Mark 6

I suppose, belief opens the door for God's Spirit to enter. We need to welcome Him.

I don't see this as in anyway a contradiction of UR, however, because, "when we see Him, we will be like Him". No more will we see through the"mirror dimly".

" You believed, Thomas, because you saw, but blessed are those who did not see, yet still believed."

D.

[gluecht2]

I understand the contention of addt'l opportunity for man to believe and therefore receive salvation (addt'l to this earthly existence that is).  I just do not agree that that is what the whole of scripture indicates.  This obviously is a debatable point but the concern I have is that universal salvation's contention undermines the accountability for man to choose belief.  It indicates that God will convince man "someway" at "sometime" when given enough opportunities to do so.  God has ALREADY spoken in His Word,  through creation, and ultimately in His Son.  Earthly man has full revelation at this present time to seek.
Lk 16:31...

[MusicLover123]

Well friend, God has other plans:

Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Means they cannot be given back ooncene it is given.)

Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 3
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 13
3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God

God isn't working with all men though at this time, most are still blinded by the god of this world. He isn't choosing to save all in this age, but few now, and the rest later.

And let's not forget whose faith actually saves:

Hebrews 12
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He is a Father, not some helpless baby on damage control. Trust in His perfect timing.

[Dandelion]

5 And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.

Mark 6

I suppose, belief opens the door for God's Spirit to enter. We need to welcome Him.

I don't see this as in anyway a contradiction of UR, however, because, "when we see Him, we will be like Him". No more will we see through the"mirror dimly".

" You believed, Thomas, because you saw, but blessed are those who did not see, yet still believed."

Actually, as I read what I wrote again, I realize that this actually, in some ways, contradicts myself, because I believe that we can backslide, as Christians. Of course, though, as a UR believer, I don't have to wrestle with the fear of a hell, but I do believe that believers can get very much off the track, if they lose that faith and trust in God. But, of course, we will all be back on track one day.....just maybe not today. Where is the boundary when too far brings us to a different place? I have to think about this, but perhaps, when 'other gods' steal our hearts and minds and soul. And, we might not even realize it.

That's one of the best things about this site.....it makes me look at scripture carefully, almost everyday, and presents me with many challenges regarding this..........with many nice people, I might add.

D.

[sheila]

 :2c:itdoes appear to be a dichotomy,doesn't it?dis the scriptures that tell of the Lamb taking away all their sin[Blessed is the man

  whose sins are covered]or place the sins back on their shoulders and cast them into ET/ED/LOF..and dis all the scriptures

about Jesus coming to save the world/not condemn it? Sometimes...a man knows not of what spirit he is.

It is good to convince a man of sin[that he is falling far short of the loveof God and Jesusfor all men/by less than loving behaviour] but

evil to convict/condemn/judge men that God and Jesus have atoned for by the cross.Mercy triumphs over judgement to condemnation.

   There was war inheaven..Michael and his angels fought and satan and his.The accuser of men to God's face wasthrown out of heaven

unto the earth....dragon breath..dragon flood waters/doctrines..seek tosweep the woman away.thewomanis saved through childbearing

...and Goodnews unto all men...UNTO US A SON IS GIVEN...GOD WITH US

Michael willstand up...and allyour people will be delivered[all mankind] God will also deliver us from the faultfinding of the people,as

wellas the accuser.

the warring in our minds of these seeming dichotomies in the scriptures[we war against powers and principalities in high places]

strong holdsof the dragons accusations in our minds[Did Jesus really take away allthe worlds sin on the cross?Is eternal life really

a freegift?surely not-thus andthus satan seduces the mind to disbelief/doubt in God's word/Love/salvation/mercy/power.

this salvation is not of our own works..but it is the work of God...A MIRACLE-THEWORK OF A DIVINE AGENCY.

God alone will be exalted on that day! no flesh will be boasting..Lord,Lord,didn't we do thus and thus..instead..itwill be

'Come ye who are  blessed"[man with his sins covered] :2c:

[sheila]

 :2c:Mark9;47,48..............it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye[point ofview/through grace/freegift]

than to have two eyes[pov]and be thrown in hell...where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

if your hand causes you to sin[saved by works] cut it off,and if your foot[walk/way of life]cut  it off.

we walk haltingly on our thigh[notinlove]..when we usurp our brother's[fellowman's]birth right in Christ from him.

just as we have all bore the image of the corrupt,so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt.

[gluecht2]

"God isn't working with all men though at this time, most are still blinded by the god of this world. He isn't choosing to save all in this age, but few now, and the rest later". (Musiclover)

I try to stay "big picture" because of the many systemic theological paths and conclusions that can be difficult to sift through.  I see in scripture the urgency for:  belief for the Savior in this world;  the caution RE: hardness of heart;  encouragement to endure to the end;  the presence of a second death. 

I started with a question RE: Judas's fate in another discussion to address the above contention (Musiclover).  I see the understanding of Judas's fate on these pages to be problematic.  To interpret "better off if he not be born" with any optimism is hard to fathom.  The quote above (Musiclover) is representative and IMO contributes to these type of conclusions rather than letting scripture speak for itself.  It all has to fit together.

"He is a Father, not some helpless baby on damage control. Trust in His perfect timing."(Musiclover)

As to this second sentiment-no disagreement here.  But God has sent His Son right on time or "at the fullness of time" (Gal 4: 4).  He also has spoken with all He has, perfectly and with finality (Heb 1:2;  Mk 12:6).  But the choice remains with Man.  Individual man's unbelief stops God's will for his life (multiple references throughout the NT).  Man's choice of unbelief does not, in any way, diminish God's magnificence (Rom 3:4)

[GodIsLove]

Not sure if I can help at all...

I think WhiteWings's post is helpful here.

I also think it's important to note hyperbole that exists throughout scripture and is part of the Jewish mindset, it is used to get a point across and portray something.

Wailing and gnashing of teeth, cut off your hand if it causes you to sin, Gehenna fire. We can't tead scripture with a modern western mindset and understand it very well.

So to portray the seriousness of what Judas did, the statement in question was made.

Also, I go back and forth on God's will man's will because there are clear scriptures that seemingly contradict as far as how much our will is a factor versus God's. It's a mystery for now and anyone who thinks they have it figured out, steer clear of their teachings IMO

Basically I believe the urgency in the Bible is because if we say yes to life, love and God NOW we avoid so much pain, confusion, death, and destruction for OURSELVES and for those we interact with (OTHERS). 

It's a ripple effect, and that is why those who are responding to God NOW are furthering along the kingdom, and are participants with Christ and his work.

I'll be honest, I'm a full preterist, I believe the end of the age of law happened on the cross and 70AD and we are now in the new heaven/new earth where the kingdom is like leaven, and we are slowly seeing Christ leaven us all. It all depends on the lens in which you see the world, and if you think we are close to destruction and Armageddon then you will see the bad, but if you believe we are slowly seeing Christ change us individually until all are like Him, you will see evidence of that all around.

I think our growing and learning and transformation happens on earth first as a sort of womb and after our earthly experience we will continue to grow and all are at different stages but all will get to God in the end.

If you knew that one of your children would suffer horribly on earth, SOME people would say better for that child to not be born. It's one of the arguments for abortion. So whether we think that statement refers to Jesus, who suffered unspeakably because of Judas's actions, or that it refers to Judas, who was tormented mentally and killed himself, either way sometimes suffering on earth carries so much weight that we think it would be better to not have even been born.

So I'm bouncing around a bit but I believe God is near to all of us and waiting for us to seek or respond to him, and some do it now and some do it later. I also don't think being saved is a one time thing, I think some of us who think we are "saved" have a lot of growing to do, and that is why the first shall be last and who we think is "in" and who is "out" is not necessarily how it goes.

[MusicLover123]

I admit, I probably could have worded that part better. But I was implying a couple things with that:

Most basically view God as this baby. He tried creating something good(Adam and Eve) but the stupid serpent ruined His plans, and the woman and man disobeyed! Furious, now He sends all these prophets and people to try to fix this. Well, they just keep messing up too! He then sends Jesus, and tells Him to save the world. Ignorantly calling Himself triumphant, Jesus tries getting the 100 sheep, but lost 99 in the process. As last resort, God takes what puny amount He managed to save, and throws the rest in torture chamber for all eternity. At last, He can finally have peace, because although He failed miserably, at least He can take His failure and anger out on something.

Here is the main problem I have when bring this topic up to others. If I just list some Scriptures, they have all these preconceived ideas, like God only wishing it to happen, or all not meaning all, etc. So they don't see it the same way. If I comment a little on those verses, or just leave a general comment on my view, it is usually accused of twisting Scripture.

I would say too, how much of a part we play in salvation, and how much God plays, is a mystery.

[jabcat]

First of all, IMO, as long as you are a born again follower of Christ, if at this point you believe in eternal hell, that's "OK".  You're still a brother and your attitude and approach have been great.  That's all good.  Good discussion is, well, good :)    It can make everyone dig a little more in earnest.
Sometimes we change our view a little here and there, and/or seeds are sown for later growth.

That said, this

It all has to fit together.

IMO makes a good case for an understanding of the ultimate reconciliation of all through the blood and cross of Jesus.

As far as man's choice, I certainly believe we are constantly faced with them, and it required of us.  Obedience, guarding our heart, seeking Him, etc.   However, in the very end, I believe God has the final say.  And He "wills all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth".

"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.

[sheila]

 :2c: two trees in the garden.the TOKOGAE=God's good spirit and satan's evil spirit manifesting in the flesh of men.The scriptures must

be fulfilled! and some men have been chosen to act out these adversarial roles.However, the TOL..ofwhich Jesus was..andour spirits areof

is a whole different tree.

the fullness of time was the fulfilling of the law covenant...no man is righteous,no not one. The fulfilling of the law covenant is God boundup

all men in disobedience in order to have mercy on all in the new grace covenant. Break one law/guilty of them all. the fulfilling of the law

isJesus the Passover Lamb..and Atonement Lord's goat.

Men are borne along of the Holy spirit by God's will. God causes men to desire and do His good will..

ROMANS 9;11YET,BEFORE THE TWINS WERE BORN OR HAD DONE ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD-IN ORDER THAT GOD'S PURPOSE

IN  ELECTION[CHOOSING}MIGHT STAND;NOT BY WORKS BUT BY HIM WHO CALLS.


Romans9;19 Thenwhy does God still blame us? For who resists His will? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it........

WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS? Does not the potter has the right to make somefor noble use and somefor common?

God teaches didatic lessons using both positive and negative contrast examples..that we may see the merits ofgood behavior

and learn from the negatives what not to do. GOD HAS PURPOSE IN THIS...TO TEACH,EDUCATE.

Israel's -UNBELIEF=Romans9;30-33BECAUSE THEY PURSUED IT NOT BY FAITH,BUT AS IF IT WERE BY WORKS.

many overcome saints[churches] that Daniel prophesied about.....still stumble over this stone...works oriented salvation.


Because men have believed that the choosing/choice is theirs and not God's..and that men can 'change' themselves..many have

come forth that are called of men..not God.Resulting in false prophecies/false prophets,teaching of comandments of men,false apostles,

false shepherds,sects/cults..false gospels,etc..Psalms50;16  But to the wicked God says,'what right have you to recite my laws,or take

my covenant on your lips? You hate my instruction and cast my words behind you.Whenyou see a thief you join with him;you throw

in your lot with adulterers-verses through 23.

Jesus had to deal with the same religious leaders that usurped positions in His day. Evil contrast.

the lesson learned of the TOKOGAE is this,,reject the evil and choose the good/GOD. But Jesus said..either make the tree good or make

the tree evil. Jesus was a piece of fruit come down from heaven of the TOL..that we may taste and see that GOD IS GOOD..and

that obedience/believing God..is better than sacrifice..but sacrifice and offering did not please Him..but He was delighting in mercy.

Hosea 6;6    Lack of faith/unbelief in the word of God not to eat of the TOKOGAE led to mans downful.Putting belief in the wordof

God/Jesus of God's forgiveness/mercy and frre gift of eternal life/Tol leads to mans rising.ALL prodigal sons return unto their

Good Father..when Jesus calls them home...andif they doNOT heed these false christs/churches men calling them..then don't you

know His lost sheep will not heed another's voice.Never-the-less,Balaam prophets pronounce curses on them for money/tithes

many aSunday..and Judas priests rob them regularly,wolves prey on them..false-shepherds abuse them.

God's gifts and callings are without repentance on man's part. Man "changes/repents"when he is called/chosen..each in his order.

if we speak of these things to anyone,and they not respond,then we know it is not God's will or their time to receive it.Jesus had

those who were given unto Him of the Father at their time..and they answered His call..and the call of those He sent forth.

God'swillmay be for a man to go into captivity to sin..to learn from painful expierence and example of how to not do/or act.

also,He may send us to a spiritual prison[church]that welearn through painful expierence to not be a man follower.Heknows what

we will do before we do it because before we were born He had planned what our expierences would be. Til we receive that upward

call we will receive both positive and negative expierences,as He planned.Proverbs 16;9Inhisheart a man plans his coarse....but

the Lord determines his steps.

:2c:

[GodIsLove]

I admit, I probably could have worded that part better. But I was implying a couple things with that:

Most basically view God as this baby. He tried creating something good(Adam and Eve) but the stupid serpent ruined His plans, and the woman and man disobeyed! Furious, now He sends all these prophets and people to try to fix this. Well, they just keep messing up too! He then sends Jesus, and tells Him to save the world. Ignorantly calling Himself triumphant, Jesus tries getting the 100 sheep, but lost 99 in the process. As last resort, God takes what puny amount He managed to save, and throws the rest in torture chamber for all eternity. At last, He can finally have peace, because although He failed miserably, at least He can take His failure and anger out on something.

Here is the main problem I have when bring this topic up to others. If I just list some Scriptures, they have all these preconceived ideas, like God only wishing it to happen, or all not meaning all, etc. So they don't see it the same way. If I comment a little on those verses, or just leave a general comment on my view, it is usually accused of twisting Scripture.

I would say too, how much of a part we play in salvation, and how much God plays, is a mystery.

!
This is actually a pretty hilarious synopsis of the "not so good news" that people pass off as Christianity.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup:

I also especially thought this a great phrase by Sheila - "Balaam prophets pronounce curses on them for money/tithes" :Chinscratch:

[marie glen]

P.S. - not that I think it's intentional, except in some cases of course, human nature being what it is.. :gsmile:

[sheila]

 :2c:they know not what they do. The saints[churches] were overcome..as Daniel prophesied. God allowed this..for a greater

purpose.That..noflesh boast[bound up all men in sin..in order to have mercy on all] They are under grace..as is all mankind.

Micah 3;5Thisiswhat the Lord says,' As for the prophets who lead my people astray...if one feeds them they proclaim peace,

if he does not they prepare to wage war against him......her leaders judge for a bribe,her priests teach for a price..and her prophets

tell fortunes for money. Yet,they lean upon the Lord and say,'is not the Lord among us?,no disater will come upon us"


Micah ch 4TheMountain of the Lord..and the Lord's plan- the former dominion will be restored.

v13Rise and thresh, O"Daughter of Zion,I will give you horns of iron; I will give you hoofs of bronze and youwill break to pieces

many nations. You will devote their ill gotten gains to the Lord, their wealth[people, God's jewel's/treasure] to the Lord of all  the earth

[Psalms ch 124]

Isaaih 49;24  Can plunder be taken from warriors,or captives rescued from the fierce?  But this is what the Lord says,"YES,

CAPTIVESWILL BE TAKEN FROM WARRIORS,AND PLUNDER RETRIEVED FROM THE FIERCE;I WILL CONTENDWITH THOSE WHO

CONTEND WITH YOU,AND YOUR CHILDREN I WILL SAVE.

Our Saviour,redeemer will gather all men from where-ever they have been scattered. :2c:

[gluecht2]

God knows the end from the beginning.  He predestines those that He foreknows will believe to be like His Son.  This is consistent with many are called but few are chosen.   The few that are "chosen" are so because they themselves acknowledge and accept that they are chosen in "answering the call" of Christ.  They accept God's Gift.  They are the elect.   You see in this way this preserves man's choice and God's glory.   I do not mean to be dogmatic but I think of it this way-All Man is accountable because of creation (Paul) and God took the "extra step" in revealing Himself through His Word (of course including Christ) to call those that He knew would believe.   God revealing Himself in creation and His grace plan in Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for some.   He wills that all be saved.  His ultimate call was, and is, in His Son.   There is no more revelation of God to Man because God has revealed all of Himself fully in His Son.   Christ is SEATED at the R hand of the Father.....  It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of Kings to reveal it. 

[GodIsLove]

Then what is the point of God creating the millions of non-elect?

[MusicLover123]

Look at this:

1. God is sovereign
2. God "wills" all to be saved
3. Absolutely nothing stops God from accomplishing that
4. God even tells us to pray for this to happen

I think the most logical conclusion is that God will get what He wants.

His grace plan in Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for some

Have you read these verses:

Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.(Once given, cannot be given back)

Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

So, even grace is a gift. And, like all of God's gifts, and once He calls someone, it cannot be returned back.

And on the chosen/elect. I have to study more on that, but I think it may have to actually do with the workers and the harvest. The elect will be the first of everyone to be saved, not that they are the only ones that will be. It might have to do with some getting more privelages, but bigger responsibility for a time.

[jabcat]

Look at this:

1. God is sovereign
2. God "wills" all to be saved
3. Absolutely nothing stops God from accomplishing that
4. God even tells us to pray for this to happen

I think the most logical conclusion is that God will get what He wants.

His grace plan in Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for some

Have you read these verses:

Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.(Once given, cannot be given back)

Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

So, even grace is a gift. And, like all of God's gifts, and once He calls someone, it cannot be returned back.

And on the chosen/elect. I have to study more on that, but I think it may have to actually do with the workers and the harvest. The elect will be the first of everyone to be saved, not that they are the only ones that will be. It might have to do with some getting more privelages, but bigger responsibility for a time.

This  ^^^^^^^^^^

:dsunny: