Preterism the new frontier of eschatology

[1 Larry H]

There is nothing new under the sun, but I find the subject matter fascinating. Although it's been around for an extremely long time, nevertheless in our day and age it is reaching the heart of many Christians.

Preterism the new frontier in eschatology, but for all intents and purposes it lives two encampments, partial and full.. The critical distinction is PP believes in a future second coming,. FP don't. Why, because they consider "all" prophecy" fulfilled in the first century. Many PP consider the FP view heretical, since they essentially consider it opposing the creedal belief system.


Many are trapped between the two structures, even though one opens the door to the other.. There must be a magic bullet to settle the issue, and both groups continue to search for it to no avail. 

[eaglesway]

Hi Larry. Preterism is not the focus of Tentmaker. There have been and maybe still are preterists on the site and contentious debates over those issues have been waged from time to time. Settling the differences in views between various camps can detract from our mission, which is to proclaim the salvation of all, not as an aspect of any other systematic theology, but rather as the core of the gospel of our Lord. Inside what is commonly known as Preterism there are different degrees and perspectives as well. I am sure there are sites where those elements and differences are the focus of their content.

[jabcat]

There may be a way to save the thread if we turned it 90 degrees into "does it relate to UR, if so how, or why/why not".  Does it matter how much if any is already fulfilled compared to what is generally accepted mainstream view, as far as Jesus, Savior of the world is concerned, and the ultimate reconciliation of all?  I'm not sure.  I haven't thought it through to that extent.   For the purposes of these boards it may still be a dead end, but if there's something very connected, might be worth a shot?   :Peace2:

[marie glen]

My interest in eschatology is how it relates to UR.. the whole topic requires, imo, common sense, a knowledge of some history and what’s going on in the world today.  All with guidance by His Spirit..

(I think I am pp - partial preterist, but being a bit of a hermit, I really wouldn’t know.. Note, the first horse and rider (on a white horse) going forth conquering and to conquer, imo, is the victorious gospel riding forth throughout the years of our Lord. A.D.. so I think that would be pp.)

But the thing I think is important is does it show UR after all is said and done with the ages of man’s rule.

I think I can safely say we are still in an age of mankind’s rule. (Or maybe not all believers think that :dontknow: but it doesn’t matter.. imo, anyway.)

I happen to be reading a Moffett New Testament these last few days, and today’s reading was Rev 20.. And more than ever, it sounded like “the Judgment proceeds, then” and yes the translation said “then, anyone not found enrolled in the book of life “ (of believing?) “they were hurled into the lake of fire”.. and God Made all things new. I would assume by His Spirit consuming all impurity. My belief is likely no humans in lof. :faint: in chap 19 they are institutions active at His return thrown to lof.. imo.

I think God’s revealing eschatological things is progressive.. That once we thought , Judgment day, straight to lof.. That no longer sounds reasonable (nor biblical) to me.. but if one does go there, worse case scenario is aionian.. and “made for the devil and his angels” (for aion and aion? 2?)

Psalm 22:27 says all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD - and we expect that to happen. I don’t think it happens in the lof. And it has to happen before God makes all things new. (An “All in alll”event?) Doesn’t it?

And it has to happen after all those persons who have lived but not believed rise.

So after they rise - Jesus always talked about resurrection.. also mentioned quite often, the Judgment. And things occurring during it.

:doh: I got sidetracked.  ...So, all turning to the LORD (and all families of the nations worshiping before Him, the rest of the verse) must occur after they rise, but before the Father makes all things new. So what is between those two?

And here, imo, is the other piece to this puzzle. The Feasts. If Jesus is our Passover Lamb, the Unleavened Bread of Life, and the Firstfruits, fulfilling the Spring Holy Days more than we realize.. (died at very hour of the Passover sacrifices? Etc? Takes some study.. but well worth it.)

This has convinced me that the three main peaks of His long second advent, are prefigured by the Autumn Holy Days (Lev.23) of Trumpets, Day Of Atonement, Tabernacles. And not only that, but look at the pattern!!

Trumpets- He comes at the last one - then 10 days to Day of Atonement

The prefiguring of? His return at last trump - then 1000 years to Day of Judgment

Okay, IF, that’s true, what about the rest? What prefigures? And what is prefigured?

In between the general rising (of nonbelievers) and when “all things are made new”?

- Day Of Atonement, and 5 days to Tabernacles.

When God makes all things new, “He will now tabernacle with mankind upon Earth made new”.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/21-3.htm - “tabernacle” twice in the verse, noun and verb.

IF the “10 days” between Trumpets and Day of Atonement prefigures the “1000 years” millennial kingdom rule, what does the “5 days” between Day of Atonement and Tabernacles prefigure?

There’s way too much coincidence to ignore. What was Day Of Atonement? Strongest coincidence?

Granted, our everyday ET believer may not become convinced if presented with this.. but surely it is worth knowing (if it’s true). I have to think somebody, somewhere, sometime, has noticed this...? :dontknow:

I want to figure out how to write this waay more briefly.. something to work on..

[1 Larry H]

Thanks for those responses, UR was unknown to me up until a short period of time, by reading some article and posts I'm to getting gist of it.

I always thought God could take the atonement of Christ and cover whomever he pleases. Yet at the same time those who committed some horrible stuff  "as God sees it," will not receive it. Surly they would not suffer in a burning Hell. Such doctrine as Hell from the Creeds system I think paved the way for the holocaust.

"Luther's attitude toward the Jews took different forms during his lifetime. In his earlier period, until 1537 or not much earlier, he wanted to convert Jews to Lutheranism (Protestant Christianity), but failed. In his later period when he wrote this particular treatise, he denounced them and urged their persecution." Wikipedia

OK why Preterism

If considered UR and preterism is not so far off topic in this forum. Hosea Ballou was the father of  "Preterist Universalism"  in the 18th century. The two together, preterism and UR, seems to open the door to some interesting stuff to look at.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/u/universalism.html

[GodIsLove]

I believe pereterism is another key to UR as well Larry.

[marie glen]

In the first paragraph of the article - " Universalists tend to believe that atonement is received by all in Jesus Christ regardless of one's state of belief." This of course is not CU - Christian Universalism. But I will read more of the article. As I do believe an open (berean) mind is best rather than dismissing something out of hand.. "no one at first desires new wine, but old" :gsmile:

I'm partial preterist, But I doubt I could believe Jesus has returned and is now ruling the nations (directly).

To me man's world has to collapse, self implode.. since it is on that way of sin which results in death. Unless of course all the world was to believe and submit to Jesus that Rev.21 would come to pass.

[marie glen]

I think it's best to just read the book of rev (and the prophets) for ourself.. I try to stay away from "teachings".

But at this site, there's this:

Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision "was seen not very long ago, almost in our ouwn generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian" (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian's reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

From this site - https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos "after the tyrant was dead" (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the "Father of Church History," identifies the "tyrant" as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America's most prominent preterist, admitted that the "tyrant here meant is probably Domitian." Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an "old man." If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
   When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11). There's more I didn't copy/paste :gsmile:

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius's reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John's writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero's persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

The page's summary : In view of the foregoing evidence, a very strong case can be made for dating Revelation at about A.D. 96. Accordingly, the theory of realized eschatology, which is grounded upon the necessity of the Apocalypse having been written prior to A.D. 70, is shown to be without the necessary foundation for its successful defense, to say nothing of the scores of other scriptural difficulties that plague it.
   

Of course we can't really judge/discern one way or the other until very well acquainted with what the book says. Otherwise we only trust and have faith in what someone else tells us it says and is. I have scheduled rev. for myself - reading schedule - to read through rev. each year.. that way it's little bites .. review these days, lol. Not that I can't tead more ( or even less) should the Spirit move that way.
:Peace2: :girlheart:

[marie glen]

I think this sums very well - imo, of course..  :mblush:

Mt.24

It should be obvious that the events of Matthew 24:4-34 have to do with the generation that was contemporary with the Lord. The Christians could look for certain tell-tale indicators, detailed by the Savior, and “know” that the Lord’s judgment upon Jerusalem was near (v. 33).

But of “that [the] day” of the Son’s final coming, “knoweth no one” except the Father (v. 36). There is thus a clear contrast between Christ’s temporal activity, chronicled prior to verse thirty-four, and that of the Lord’s judgment at the end of time.

:dontknow: ? from this page - https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/19-a-study-of--24

Whether the Book of Revelation (and prophets?) are preterist prophecies, or futurist or a blend doesn’t, imo, affect the UR/CU implications of the “second resurrection” and Messiah’s advents portrayed in Israel’s Holy Feast Days.

:faint:

..the pilgrimage feasts are conclusions! Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles.

[1 Larry H]

It seems to me the day and hour Jesus referred to was the end of the age I.e.  the Mosaic Economy, realized by the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. This was the subject matter to begin with. Why would Jesus all of a sudden change gears and refer to  something, they had no idea of,  happening over 2000 or 3000 years later. What good would it be for the first century Christians who were about to suffer server persecution of something that far off  into our future. They needed the warning to know when to get out town before the bullets start blazing. 

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of "punishment"  in fulfillment of all that has been written.  Luke 21:20

So far "I think" that UR and preterism harmonize together :violin::angelharp:  I will be looking for some answers if any are present.  Perhaps a magic bullet will fill in the pieces as my understanding of UR matures.

Universalism in America, Volume II : Bibliography "And having satisfied our minds respecting the time of the coming of the Son of man to judge and reward men according to their works, and being assured that that event took place when Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews dispersed; it remains an easy task to settle the question respecting the meaning and fulfillment of all the passages in the New Testament which speak of that judgment, and the awful calamities which fell on the people. But we must always keep in mind the fact that all those scriptures were fulfilled in that generation in which Jesus and his disciples lived." (Hosea Ballou, 1805 - Treatise on the Atonement)  Tentmaker Books

[eaglesway]

There are elements of fulfilled eschatology that I see as scriptural and spiritual, but the whole 70AD thing, to me, is just a mechanism to void scriptures that do not fit the preterist model.

The end of the OT age and the beginning of the New Covenant, ratified by His blood, were transferred by the death, burial, resurrection ,ascension of Jesus Christ .The outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the gentiles is the testament to that fact, and imo Paul demonstrates that fact throughout Romans and Galatians.

In the process of the ages God is gathering all things together into one in Christ. The Jew first(OT), then the Gentile(NT), then the remainder of all the people of all the ages. All this was accomplished by "the blood of His cross"(Col 1)

IMO the verses that most clearly explain the salvation of all are also the key scriptures in understanding eschatology because it is necessary to understand God's purpose as a context for His plan which includes His times.

In EPh 1:9-11 Paul is clear that God's purpose, from the beginning, is the gathering together of all things in heaven and earth in Christ.

In Col. 1:15-21 Paul makes it clear that God is reconciling all things- the same all things created by Christ(nothing that exists exists without Him) and over which Christ must eventually reign- through the blood of His cross- again, all things in heaven and earth.

In Romns 8:18-22 Paul makes it clear that the fall was God's plan to bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God

and in 1 Cor 15:22-29 Paul makes it clear that all this is accomplished through the Lordship of Jesus and includes every adversary being subjected and gathered and returned to God until God is "all in all".

"The one who sits on the throne" says, Nearing the climatic conclusion of Revelation(Rev 21:5), "Behold, I am making all things new, Write these words because they are faithful and true"

In short, it is impossible to understand eschatology, until one has understood God's plan and purpose- the restoration of all things- which is the gospel of Jesus.

Paul says, opening his epistle to the Romans...

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, and set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3regarding His Son, who was a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Certainly the gospel Paul proclaimed was about a new covenant born in a body of believers made up of Jews and Gentiles. We know that He was proclaiming it from significantly before 70 Ad.

IMO understanding the ages is ALL about the restoration of all things, which Jesus and the apostles all proclaimed from the beginning.

Peter proclaimed this from the first day.

"And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

21Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets." Acts 3

Getting into specific aspects of timelines seem dubious to me when people do not get His purpose for creation in the first place, and personally, I think the scriptures are MUCH CLEARER about the salvation of all as God's initial purpose than they are about specific times because purpose and fundamental reason for a plan is the foundation for the emerging details of it.....

it is easier to confuse what the hour and the day is if you do not know why the Day is. IMO the Day is about the restoration of all things, and it broke with His resurrection, and will conclude when God is all in all.

[marie glen]

Amen.. regarding prophecy with "the restoration of all things" in mind..

----------------
UR, the purpose fulfilled in Jesus, the ingathering - Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:20

[marie glen]

It seems to me the day and hour Jesus referred to was the end of the age I.e.  the Mosaic Economy, realized by the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. This was the subject matter to begin with. Why would Jesus all of a sudden change gears and refer to  something, they had no idea of,  happening over 2000 or 3000 years later. What good would it be for the first century Christians who were about to suffer server persecution of something that far off  into our future. They needed the warning to know when to get out town before the bullets start blazing. 

I think at the beginning of the chapter, that the disciples asked Him two questions... He answers first one, to verse 28.

Then verse 29, He begins the answer to the second question "29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And these things are mentioned elsewhere - the dark smoky? days (of Joel) - the sounding of the trumpet.. The angels sent out to gather His elect.. 2 Thess.1:7,8 says He comes with angels and fire..

Plus of course in Rev. is the resurrections and the judgment.. which I don't believe to be any more myth than the virgin birth, etc..

[1 Larry H]

I think at the beginning of the chapter, that the disciples asked Him two questions... He answers first one, to verse 28.

It is my estimation that the subject matter was concerning the  destruction of the temple  in AD 70, why would the disciples want to know  of  Jesus coming  if  they didn't' know He was leaving?   :hiya:

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The cloud coming is symbolic of God's judgment on a Nation as in the case of Egypt.  :swordfight:

Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.

I believe Young's Literal Translation got it right in the Greek in the next verse, which uses land instead of Earth and tribes instead of  people.

Rev.1.7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

Compare

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.

Plus of course in Rev. is the resurrections and the judgment.. which I don't believe to be any more myth than the virgin birth, etc.

I'm not sure of the resurrection of  judgment, or how UR views that . If all will get life what will they be judged for. In other words what will be the verdict.  Is there going to be a second chance, plan B,  salvation plan?  :Book:

[marie glen]

I think Judgment 'Day' will be, and is represented by "Day of Atonement". Which I think is an age following gbe millennium.

I was rereading the chapter, and it seems to me the disciples saw"the end" as being immediate. The Lord had been telling them He was leaving, I think they saw His return and the judgment upon the world as being soon.

And it seems like Jesus answered them also in a blend.. the end of their age, and the end of ours which is of all the ages of man's history. Also those chapters (Mt.24,etc) to me seem to have some things in common with other verses about His return, and with Revelation. Like common puzzle pieces(?)

Over and over, I find the best way for me to understand the verses, and intent and meaning, is to read it like any other book. The letters for instance in the order believed written. I'm also going to review Luke 21 and Mark 13. I usually end up, in such a study, reading an interlinear word for word version, and check out the links to any words I need to. Even when I learn things I forget so review is always good!
:Peace2:

[MusicLover123]

1 Corinthians 3

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I don't believe that God works in "chances." There won't be any second chances, but rather the second step in God's plan for creation.

[1 Larry H]

Getting into specific aspects of timelines seem dubious to me when people do not get His purpose for creation in the first place, and personally, I think the scriptures are MUCH CLEARER about the salvation of all as God's initial purpose than they are about specific times because purpose and fundamental reason for a plan is the foundation for the emerging details of it.....

Certainly the gospel Paul proclaimed was about a new covenant born in a body of believers made up of Jews and Gentiles. We know that He was proclaiming it from significantly before 70 AD.

I am curious  :Chinscratch: to know if New Covenant was proclaimed before AD 70, why would  author of the book of Hebrews under inspiration say

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

Since Hebrews was written during the transitional time frame of 40 years from the death and resurrection of Christ to the destruction of the temple in AD 70, it looks as if the New Covenant was not fully established. This is the reason why in scripture it refers to the Parousia in many places as future. A short future not some thousands of Years later.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." 

If the verse, and the theory above. referred to a future coming beyond AD 70, that would make the listening audience still alive. If not it would suggest we are living in the kingdom of God now. Which I believe we are.  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Many interpret that verse as the transfiguration six days later..? I'm not sure about that.. But what I like about it is, if so.. the words "see the kingdom in its glory".. and then in the account of the event, it ends with "and the disciples looked up and saw, Jesus alone" or "only Jesus" — the kingdom! And glory of!

:Chinscratch: Why, I wonder wouldn't Jesus leave also warning to the climactic things of man's ages.. as in Daniel.. where it's tied to last days because the mountain/kingdom destroys all those nations and then fills the Earth..

I agree we are in the kingdom, but not the world and I believe the kingdom comes fully to Earth. In Rev. chapter one it says He comes on the clouds and every eye will see Him - whether see Him in that day or as history review on DOJ, Day of judgment, not dept. of justice, :laughing7: I take the verse, and the others like it to be straightforward, as I see no reason not to. It says - He, spoke in parables.. it doesn't say all of God's Word was inspired as parable.

Also interesting is the revelation vision "given to Jesus by the Father, to give to His servants".. John is told to write the vision in a book, and send it to the 7 churches of Asia.. and there's is no mention of sending it to Jerusalem..

[1 Larry H]

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."  Matthew 16:27

Many interpret that verse as the transfiguration six days later..? I'm not sure about that.. But what I like about it is, if so.. the words "see the kingdom in its glory".. and then in the account of the event, it ends with "and the disciples looked up and saw, Jesus alone" or "only Jesus" — the kingdom! And glory of!

Ken Gentry makes this interesting observation

"Who witnessed the transfiguration?

"Jesus took with him Peter, James and John..." (Matt. 17:1; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:28)

These would qualify as "some" out of the "crowd...along with the disciples," but Jesus later said, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead" (Matt. 17:9b). This raises another question: Why would Jesus have "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak before a "crowd" regarding an event he really didn't want anyone else to know about?

What did Jesus specifically mention they would see?

1. "the Son of Man coming in his Father's glory"

2. "angels"

3. Each person being rewarded for what he has done (the judgment)

4. "his kingdom""

[marie glen]

I wouldn't disagree.. And of course some/ a crowd did see His coming to the disciples on Pentecost.. but I don't believe that equates to His return to the Earth and the millennium. And believe there's way too many verses about a literal return to the Earth to beccme mere symbol.. and I don't think the reason the warnings and signs are given to cause fear, but to cause LESS concern.. Especially before said signs actually appear..

"Many" also in this day "come in His name and even saying He is Messiah, But they do and will lead many astray.. imo, about many things. But i believe if we continue to read His Word(s) (vs. teachings?) the pieces of understanding will become clearer and clearer.
:Peace2: :gsmile:

Is it the understanding of full preterist that hesus does not literally return to Earth? Do you believe He was resurrected with a literal body? The account of eating.. and touch my hands, my side.. see that a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as a literal occurrence?

Does full preterist - I am partial - believe a "New Jerusalem" will literally come out of heaven (Rev.21) and be capital of the earth or is only metaphor for believers? Which by that time will be all.. Does full preterist believe God will make heaven and earth new? The old said to be wore out like a garment (corruption being a part of the fall/subjection/vanity).. Does full preterist believe Jesus returns and believers rise at that time? And do they believe the unsaved will rise to a resurrection of judgment? "After the thousand years"? (Rev.20)

Thanks, God bless..

[1 Larry H]

He was resurrected with a literal body? The account of eating.. and touch my hands, my side.. see that a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as a literal occurrence?

Yes a literal occurrence in a corporal body.

Before addressing those other question, I would like to give a head start on the first chapter of Revelation just to refresh.  :gimmefive:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John

The book is loaded with symbolism the first century Christians understood, an epistle of immediate encouragement and warnings. "blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" V3

It was penned to the seven church in Asia."John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia" v4

An epistle of immediate encouragement, and warning to their situation. "BLESSED IS HE that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND." Revelation 1:3

Obviously to me not thousands of years later.

Thanks for reading, and the opportunity for posting.

[marie glen]

Hi! ..I don't disagree! I simply think it's like most other prophecy, at least two fold, what I think some call parallelism..

An excellent example of this, to me - whether I'm right or wrong about the symbolism, lol - is the first beast in Rev.13, the 'bigger' one, verses 1-10 (as opposed to 11-18 of the littler one, an individual, or office for we have his number..)

In the description of this particular beast - in prophecy "beasts" are governings, other than God's - He has a head which expires, but then it is again - perfect example of the Roman Empire.. you had the Emperor's, which system expired then came back as the Holy Roman Empire.. Beast/s of yesteryear - where a lot of prophecy buffs are stuck. (imo)

But today.. we also have a 'world'/big body which was, then wasn't, it's head expiring, when the head of it didn't sign on afterall! (When I prayed to understand Bible prophecy what came very strongly to mind, to look at the world around me. Tho the insight/idea about a specific last days body that expired, then was, was told to me by another many years ago.

...After the prayer and told to look around me, the pieces fell in place.. Via the Word and His Spirit of course.. from a Picasso to a ? Monet..?)

I'm talking about, of course a present day world body - it's even in Daniel, where it talks about a treaty, agreement, covenant, one of its word uses, is league. Pres.Woodrow Wilson was the one who dreamed it up but then the u.s didn't sign on, and it expired. But after the event of 13:13, it was rebuilt and one day the head will be fully reattached which will finally give breath/authority to the big beast/body..
(I think I've inadvertantly gone down my Bible prophecy rabbit hole..)

Like Mt.24, the disciples said to Jesus, "tell us when will these things be?" (An interlinear trans.) (Temple and buildings fall, no stone left atop another, cr? Dn.12:11?oops rabbit hole). — "And What is the sign of your coming and of the consummation of the age?" (Int.trans.)

I believe, yes the consummation of 70 a.d... Now look at Rev. The first horseman of the apocalypse Who is riding a white horse and He goes forth conquering and to conquer.. He has openly triumphed over powers and principalities.. I believe this rider on a "white horse" (Rev.19) to be the gospel and its ride continues (progresses) throughout the entire age of the years of our Lord, A.D. - A new age after 70A.D. (The horsemen and seals, rev.6, are told, or described here as a blend of their first and their last, at full progression and maturity. This is like a lock on the vision!) Yes, rabbit hole, but I really couldn't avoid it.. Showing the new age after 70a.d.

And, like the prophesying about His two comings.. also, I believe, often told as a blend, or better, in the same breath.

It's also believed by some, that His return was at Pentecost and was the outpouring of the HS.. And that now He rules and we are in the millennium.. though of course, it's been 2000 years and not a thousand.. so the thousand is only symbol also.. not believed to be literal..

And of course, it's believed He returned at 70 A.D., is that right?

Does this view include Jesus returning literally to the Earth one day? And God Himself tabernacling with mankind upon Earth? Setting up headquarters - I guess I think of it as - where Jerusalem is now? Or is this thought to be only symbolism of spiritual matters? And not also manifest physically..?

I wonder what you think of verses like - 2 Thessalonians 2:8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival"..?
    :Peace2: God bless!

[eaglesway]

The main problem I have with preterism is the term itself. When we identify our beliefs with a word that represents a certain system of theological belief other people will assume that we adhere to the bulk of that systems doctrine. Many preterists I have spoken with do not believe in the corporeal, physical resurrection.

I believe the book of revelations is, primarily, prophetic word pictures and parables of God and the body of Christ, in the now. It is is the "unveiling" and it is written for a Day that was and is and is to come.

So to the extent that preterist, partial preterist, hyper preterist, etc....believe in interpreting the word of God in the now, I find fellowship and an association of ideas, but to the extent that preterist hook everything into 70AD, although that was certainly a fulfillment of prophecy by Messiah to Israel, I see very little evidence for the broad extension preterists make to that as the fulcrum upon which the New Testament and Old Testament pivot.

So while everything necessary for fulfillment was secured by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ-  it is written in several places, (Ephesians 1:9-11 and 1 Cor 15:23-28 for ex.) that God is working the fulfillment out as a process involving ages, in which we are still in the midst. As I read it, even the coming)epiphania, parousia, erchomai) of Christ will not be the end of God's plan in the ages.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world because the sacrifice Lamb was the Logos of God from the beginning. and God always planned that the whole creation would be subject to futility so that the whole creation could know the joy of redemption. But, as Paul declares it "an administration suitable to the fulness of times" and "each in their own order" until "the creation is set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Hope that is fulfilled is not longer hope, but we wait for it patiently, resting assured because Jesus said, "It if finished" and fulfilled His promise and prophecy "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."

In time, God authored the New Testament in the birth of Jesus and fulfilled it in His resurrection and delivered it in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to us, His body,  the "first fruits of creation"(James 1:18)

Even now the New Jerusalem, God's holy city, is "coming down out of heaven" in the form of the body of Christ.

[marie glen]

Amen, our citizenship, even now, is in Jerusalem above.. :cloud9:

[eaglesway]

Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2So I said, "Where are you going?" And he said to me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is." 3And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him, 4and said to him, "Run, speak to that young man, saying, 'Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the multitude of men and cattle within it. 5'For I,' declares the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'"

If God is a wall of fire around Jerusalem and the glory in her midst- we are the New Jerusalem, His bride "coming down out of heaven".

The fire of God protects(surrounds, enfolds) the city ("you are a city set on a hill"). The glory of God sustains it.

22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Revelations 21

It is being built, living stone by living stone, as a "habitation of God in the spirit" to be a "house of prayer for all people", for all time.

In Daniel 7 there is a "river of fire" coming from the throne and myriads of angels surround it, as well as the thrones of the redeemed who reign with Christ- "Know you not you will judge the world?"

Fire consumes and transforms- no one will enter without passing through the fire of judgment, everyone who passes through judgment will enter the glory for mercy triumphs over judgment...

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

His eyes are as flames of fire. His feet are like burnished bronze. His hair is white as wool and "He will be like a fuller soap and a refiners fire" when He appears.

He has passed through the fire as well and led the way for us to be reconciled "by the blood of His cross"(Col 1)

Everything hinges on the mercy of God displayed in "Christ, the image of God"...."The radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature".

That is why I think that all prophecy is centered upon the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the ultimate victory- not the judgment of earthly Israel.

I believe the lake of fire is the door through which all who have rejected God will enter into life, and I think that lake is the gathering of saints and angels around the throne of God which sits upon Mt Zion aand the New Jerusalem.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Rev 14

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Heb 12

9"I kept looking
            Until thrones were set up,
            And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
            His vesture was like white snow
            And the hair of His head like pure wool.
            His throne was ablaze with flames,
            Its wheels were a burning fire.

      10"A river of fire was flowing
            And coming out from before Him;
            Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
            And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
            The court sat,
            And the books were opened. Dan 7

"Come, Let us reason together, says the Lord, though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white as snow" Isaiah 1:18

We tend to look at judgment as horrifying and terrible but altho it has an aspect of awe and reverential fear, it is for the destruction of the towers and strongholds built by sin and the repentance, reconciliation and release of the sinner.