There is nothing new under the sun, but I find the subject matter fascinating. Although it's been around for an extremely long time, nevertheless in our day and age it is reaching the heart of many Christians.
Preterism the new frontier in eschatology, but for all intents and purposes it lives two encampments, partial and full.. The critical distinction is PP believes in a future second coming,. FP don't. Why, because they consider "all" prophecy" fulfilled in the first century. Many PP consider the FP view heretical, since they essentially consider it opposing the creedal belief system.
Many are trapped between the two structures, even though one opens the door to the other.. There must be a magic bullet to settle the issue, and both groups continue to search for it to no avail.
Hi Larry. Preterism is not the focus of Tentmaker. There have been and maybe still are preterists on the site and contentious debates over those issues have been waged from time to time. Settling the differences in views between various camps can detract from our mission, which is to proclaim the salvation of all, not as an aspect of any other systematic theology, but rather as the core of the gospel of our Lord. Inside what is commonly known as Preterism there are different degrees and perspectives as well. I am sure there are sites where those elements and differences are the focus of their content.
There may be a way to save the thread if we turned it 90 degrees into "does it relate to UR, if so how, or why/why not". Does it matter how much if any is already fulfilled compared to what is generally accepted mainstream view, as far as Jesus, Savior of the world is concerned, and the ultimate reconciliation of all? I'm not sure. I haven't thought it through to that extent. For the purposes of these boards it may still be a dead end, but if there's something very connected, might be worth a shot? :Peace2:
My interest in eschatology is how it relates to UR.. the whole topic requires, imo, common sense, a knowledge of some history and what’s going on in the world today. All with guidance by His Spirit..
(I think I am pp - partial preterist, but being a bit of a hermit, I really wouldn’t know.. Note, the first horse and rider (on a white horse) going forth conquering and to conquer, imo, is the victorious gospel riding forth throughout the years of our Lord. A.D.. so I think that would be pp.)
But the thing I think is important is does it show UR after all is said and done with the ages of man’s rule.
I think I can safely say we are still in an age of mankind’s rule. (Or maybe not all believers think that :dontknow: but it doesn’t matter.. imo, anyway.)
I happen to be reading a Moffett New Testament these last few days, and today’s reading was Rev 20.. And more than ever, it sounded like “the Judgment proceeds, then” and yes the translation said “then, anyone not found enrolled in the book of life “ (of believing?) “they were hurled into the lake of fire”.. and God Made all things new. I would assume by His Spirit consuming all impurity. My belief is likely no humans in lof. :faint: in chap 19 they are institutions active at His return thrown to lof.. imo.
I think God’s revealing eschatological things is progressive.. That once we thought , Judgment day, straight to lof.. That no longer sounds reasonable (nor biblical) to me.. but if one does go there, worse case scenario is aionian.. and “made for the devil and his angels” (for aion and aion? 2?)
Psalm 22:27 says all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD - and we expect that to happen. I don’t think it happens in the lof. And it has to happen before God makes all things new. (An “All in alll”event?) Doesn’t it?
And it has to happen after all those persons who have lived but not believed rise.
So after they rise - Jesus always talked about resurrection.. also mentioned quite often, the Judgment. And things occurring during it.
:doh: I got sidetracked. ...So, all turning to the LORD (and all families of the nations worshiping before Him, the rest of the verse) must occur after they rise, but before the Father makes all things new. So what is between those two?
And here, imo, is the other piece to this puzzle. The Feasts. If Jesus is our Passover Lamb, the Unleavened Bread of Life, and the Firstfruits, fulfilling the Spring Holy Days more than we realize.. (died at very hour of the Passover sacrifices? Etc? Takes some study.. but well worth it.)
This has convinced me that the three main peaks of His long second advent, are prefigured by the Autumn Holy Days (Lev.23) of Trumpets, Day Of Atonement, Tabernacles. And not only that, but look at the pattern!!
Trumpets- He comes at the last one - then 10 days to Day of Atonement
The prefiguring of? His return at last trump - then 1000 years to Day of Judgment
Okay, IF, that’s true, what about the rest? What prefigures? And what is prefigured?
In between the general rising (of nonbelievers) and when “all things are made new”?
- Day Of Atonement, and 5 days to Tabernacles.
When God makes all things new, “He will now tabernacle with mankind upon Earth made new”.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/21-3.htm - “tabernacle” twice in the verse, noun and verb.
IF the “10 days” between Trumpets and Day of Atonement prefigures the “1000 years” millennial kingdom rule, what does the “5 days” between Day of Atonement and Tabernacles prefigure?
There’s way too much coincidence to ignore. What was Day Of Atonement? Strongest coincidence?
Granted, our everyday ET believer may not become convinced if presented with this.. but surely it is worth knowing (if it’s true). I have to think somebody, somewhere, sometime, has noticed this...? :dontknow:
I want to figure out how to write this waay more briefly.. something to work on..
Thanks for those responses, UR was unknown to me up until a short period of time, by reading some article and posts I'm to getting gist of it.
I always thought God could take the atonement of Christ and cover whomever he pleases. Yet at the same time those who committed some horrible stuff "as God sees it," will not receive it. Surly they would not suffer in a burning Hell. Such doctrine as Hell from the Creeds system I think paved the way for the holocaust.
"Luther's attitude toward the Jews took different forms during his lifetime. In his earlier period, until 1537 or not much earlier, he wanted to convert Jews to Lutheranism (Protestant Christianity), but failed. In his later period when he wrote this particular treatise, he denounced them and urged their persecution." Wikipedia
OK why Preterism
If considered UR and preterism is not so far off topic in this forum. Hosea Ballou was the father of "Preterist Universalism" in the 18th century. The two together, preterism and UR, seems to open the door to some interesting stuff to look at.
https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/u/universalism.html
I believe pereterism is another key to UR as well Larry.
In the first paragraph of the article - " Universalists tend to believe that atonement is received by all in Jesus Christ regardless of one's state of belief." This of course is not CU - Christian Universalism. But I will read more of the article. As I do believe an open (berean) mind is best rather than dismissing something out of hand.. "no one at first desires new wine, but old" :gsmile:
I'm partial preterist, But I doubt I could believe Jesus has returned and is now ruling the nations (directly).
To me man's world has to collapse, self implode.. since it is on that way of sin which results in death. Unless of course all the world was to believe and submit to Jesus that Rev.21 would come to pass.
I think it's best to just read the book of rev (and the prophets) for ourself.. I try to stay away from "teachings".
But at this site, there's this:
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision "was seen not very long ago, almost in our ouwn generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian" (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian's reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.
From this site - https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.
Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos "after the tyrant was dead" (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the "Father of Church History," identifies the "tyrant" as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America's most prominent preterist, admitted that the "tyrant here meant is probably Domitian." Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an "old man." If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.
Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11). There's more I didn't copy/paste :gsmile:
Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.
The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius's reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).
Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.
Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).
Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.
The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John's writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.
Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero's persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
The page's summary : In view of the foregoing evidence, a very strong case can be made for dating Revelation at about A.D. 96. Accordingly, the theory of realized eschatology, which is grounded upon the necessity of the Apocalypse having been written prior to A.D. 70, is shown to be without the necessary foundation for its successful defense, to say nothing of the scores of other scriptural difficulties that plague it.
Of course we can't really judge/discern one way or the other until very well acquainted with what the book says. Otherwise we only trust and have faith in what someone else tells us it says and is. I have scheduled rev. for myself - reading schedule - to read through rev. each year.. that way it's little bites .. review these days, lol. Not that I can't tead more ( or even less) should the Spirit move that way.
:Peace2: :girlheart:
I think this sums very well - imo, of course.. :mblush:
Mt.24
It should be obvious that the events of Matthew 24:4-34 have to do with the generation that was contemporary with the Lord. The Christians could look for certain tell-tale indicators, detailed by the Savior, and “know” that the Lord’s judgment upon Jerusalem was near (v. 33).
But of “that [the] day” of the Son’s final coming, “knoweth no one” except the Father (v. 36). There is thus a clear contrast between Christ’s temporal activity, chronicled prior to verse thirty-four, and that of the Lord’s judgment at the end of time.
:dontknow: ? from this page - https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/19-a-study-of--24
Whether the Book of Revelation (and prophets?) are preterist prophecies, or futurist or a blend doesn’t, imo, affect the UR/CU implications of the “second resurrection” and Messiah’s advents portrayed in Israel’s Holy Feast Days.
:faint:
..the pilgrimage feasts are conclusions! Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles.
It seems to me the day and hour Jesus referred to was the end of the age I.e. the Mosaic Economy, realized by the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. This was the subject matter to begin with. Why would Jesus all of a sudden change gears and refer to something, they had no idea of, happening over 2000 or 3000 years later. What good would it be for the first century Christians who were about to suffer server persecution of something that far off into our future. They needed the warning to know when to get out town before the bullets start blazing.
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of "punishment" in fulfillment of all that has been written. Luke 21:20
So far "I think" that UR and preterism harmonize together :violin::angelharp: I will be looking for some answers if any are present. Perhaps a magic bullet will fill in the pieces as my understanding of UR matures.
Universalism in America, Volume II : Bibliography "And having satisfied our minds respecting the time of the coming of the Son of man to judge and reward men according to their works, and being assured that that event took place when Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews dispersed; it remains an easy task to settle the question respecting the meaning and fulfillment of all the passages in the New Testament which speak of that judgment, and the awful calamities which fell on the people. But we must always keep in mind the fact that all those scriptures were fulfilled in that generation in which Jesus and his disciples lived." (Hosea Ballou, 1805 - Treatise on the Atonement) Tentmaker Books
There are elements of fulfilled eschatology that I see as scriptural and spiritual, but the whole 70AD thing, to me, is just a mechanism to void scriptures that do not fit the preterist model.
The end of the OT age and the beginning of the New Covenant, ratified by His blood, were transferred by the death, burial, resurrection ,ascension of Jesus Christ .The outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the gentiles is the testament to that fact, and imo Paul demonstrates that fact throughout Romans and Galatians.
In the process of the ages God is gathering all things together into one in Christ. The Jew first(OT), then the Gentile(NT), then the remainder of all the people of all the ages. All this was accomplished by "the blood of His cross"(Col 1)
IMO the verses that most clearly explain the salvation of all are also the key scriptures in understanding eschatology because it is necessary to understand God's purpose as a context for His plan which includes His times.
In EPh 1:9-11 Paul is clear that God's purpose, from the beginning, is the gathering together of all things in heaven and earth in Christ.
In Col. 1:15-21 Paul makes it clear that God is reconciling all things- the same all things created by Christ(nothing that exists exists without Him) and over which Christ must eventually reign- through the blood of His cross- again, all things in heaven and earth.
In Romns 8:18-22 Paul makes it clear that the fall was God's plan to bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God
and in 1 Cor 15:22-29 Paul makes it clear that all this is accomplished through the Lordship of Jesus and includes every adversary being subjected and gathered and returned to God until God is "all in all".
"The one who sits on the throne" says, Nearing the climatic conclusion of Revelation(Rev 21:5), "Behold, I am making all things new, Write these words because they are faithful and true"
In short, it is impossible to understand eschatology, until one has understood God's plan and purpose- the restoration of all things- which is the gospel of Jesus.
Paul says, opening his epistle to the Romans...
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, and set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3regarding His Son, who was a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Certainly the gospel Paul proclaimed was about a new covenant born in a body of believers made up of Jews and Gentiles. We know that He was proclaiming it from significantly before 70 Ad.
IMO understanding the ages is ALL about the restoration of all things, which Jesus and the apostles all proclaimed from the beginning.
Peter proclaimed this from the first day.
"And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.
21Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets." Acts 3
Getting into specific aspects of timelines seem dubious to me when people do not get His purpose for creation in the first place, and personally, I think the scriptures are MUCH CLEARER about the salvation of all as God's initial purpose than they are about specific times because purpose and fundamental reason for a plan is the foundation for the emerging details of it.....
it is easier to confuse what the hour and the day is if you do not know why the Day is. IMO the Day is about the restoration of all things, and it broke with His resurrection, and will conclude when God is all in all.
Amen.. regarding prophecy with "the restoration of all things" in mind..
----------------
UR, the purpose fulfilled in Jesus, the ingathering - Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:20
Quote from: 1 Larry H on December 08, 2018, 04:38:10 AM
It seems to me the day and hour Jesus referred to was the end of the age I.e. the Mosaic Economy, realized by the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. This was the subject matter to begin with. Why would Jesus all of a sudden change gears and refer to something, they had no idea of, happening over 2000 or 3000 years later. What good would it be for the first century Christians who were about to suffer server persecution of something that far off into our future. They needed the warning to know when to get out town before the bullets start blazing.
I think at the beginning of the chapter, that the disciples asked Him two questions... He answers first one,
to verse 28.Then verse 29, He begins the answer
to the second question "29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
And these things are mentioned elsewhere - the dark smoky? days (of Joel) - the sounding of the trumpet.. The angels sent out to gather His elect.. 2 Thess.1:7,8 says He comes with angels and fire..
Plus of course in Rev. is the resurrections and the judgment.. which I don't believe to be any more myth than the virgin birth, etc..
QuoteI think at the beginning of the chapter, that the disciples asked Him two questions... He answers first one, to verse 28.
It is my estimation that the subject matter was concerning the destruction of the temple in AD 70,
why would the disciples want to know of Jesus coming if they didn't' know He was leaving? :hiya:
Quote30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The cloud coming is symbolic of God's judgment on a Nation as in the case of Egypt. :swordfight:
Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.
I believe Young's Literal Translation got it right in the Greek in the next verse, which uses land instead of Earth and tribes instead of people.
Rev.1.7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
Compare
Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the
inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "
Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
QuotePlus of course in Rev. is the resurrections and the judgment.. which I don't believe to be any more myth than the virgin birth, etc.
I'm not sure of the resurrection of judgment, or how UR views that . If all will get life what will they be judged for. In other words what will be the verdict. Is there going to be a second chance, plan B, salvation plan? :Book:
I think Judgment 'Day' will be, and is represented by "Day of Atonement". Which I think is an age following gbe millennium.
I was rereading the chapter, and it seems to me the disciples saw"the end" as being immediate. The Lord had been telling them He was leaving, I think they saw His return and the judgment upon the world as being soon.
And it seems like Jesus answered them also in a blend.. the end of their age, and the end of ours which is of all the ages of man's history. Also those chapters (Mt.24,etc) to me seem to have some things in common with other verses about His return, and with Revelation. Like common puzzle pieces(?)
Over and over, I find the best way for me to understand the verses, and intent and meaning, is to read it like any other book. The letters for instance in the order believed written. I'm also going to review Luke 21 and Mark 13. I usually end up, in such a study, reading an interlinear word for word version, and check out the links to any words I need to. Even when I learn things I forget so review is always good!
:Peace2:
1 Corinthians 3
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I don't believe that God works in "chances." There won't be any second chances, but rather the second step in God's plan for creation.
QuoteGetting into specific aspects of timelines seem dubious to me when people do not get His purpose for creation in the first place, and personally, I think the scriptures are MUCH CLEARER about the salvation of all as God's initial purpose than they are about specific times because purpose and fundamental reason for a plan is the foundation for the emerging details of it.....
QuoteCertainly the gospel Paul proclaimed was about a new covenant born in a body of believers made up of Jews and Gentiles. We know that He was proclaiming it from significantly before 70 AD.
I am curious :Chinscratch: to know if New Covenant was proclaimed before AD 70, why would author of the book of Hebrews under inspiration say
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging
will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13
Since Hebrews was written during the transitional time frame of 40 years from the death and resurrection of Christ to the destruction of the temple in AD 70, it looks as if the New Covenant was not fully established. This is the reason why in scripture it refers to the Parousia in many places as future. A short future not some thousands of Years later.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
If the verse, and the theory above. referred to a future coming beyond AD 70, that would make the listening audience still alive. If not it would suggest we are living in the kingdom of God now. Which I believe we are. :dsunny:
Many interpret that verse as the transfiguration six days later..? I'm not sure about that.. But what I like about it is, if so.. the words "see the kingdom in its glory".. and then in the account of the event, it ends with "and the disciples looked up and saw, Jesus alone" or "only Jesus" — the kingdom! And glory of!
:Chinscratch: Why, I wonder wouldn't Jesus leave also warning to the climactic things of man's ages.. as in Daniel.. where it's tied to last days because the mountain/kingdom destroys all those nations and then fills the Earth..
I agree we are in the kingdom, but not the world and I believe the kingdom comes fully to Earth. In Rev. chapter one it says He comes on the clouds and every eye will see Him - whether see Him in that day or as history review on DOJ, Day of judgment, not dept. of justice, :laughing7: I take the verse, and the others like it to be straightforward, as I see no reason not to. It says - He, spoke in parables.. it doesn't say all of God's Word was inspired as parable.
Also interesting is the revelation vision "given to Jesus by the Father, to give to His servants".. John is told to write the vision in a book, and send it to the 7 churches of Asia.. and there's is no mention of sending it to Jerusalem..
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
I tell you the truth,
some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Matthew 16:27
QuoteMany interpret that verse as the transfiguration six days later..? I'm not sure about that.. But what I like about it is, if so.. the words "see the kingdom in its glory".. and then in the account of the event, it ends with "and the disciples looked up and saw, Jesus alone" or "only Jesus" — the kingdom! And glory of!
Ken Gentry makes this interesting observation
"Who witnessed the transfiguration?
"Jesus took with him Peter, James and John..." (Matt. 17:1; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:28)
These would qualify as "some" out of the "crowd...along with the disciples," but Jesus later said, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead" (Matt. 17:9b). This raises another question: Why would Jesus have
"let the cat out of the bag" so to speak before a "crowd" regarding an event he really didn't want anyone else to know about?
What did Jesus specifically mention they would see?
1. "the Son of Man coming in his Father's glory"
2. "angels"
3. Each person being rewarded for what he has done (the judgment)
4. "his kingdom""
I wouldn't disagree.. And of course some/ a crowd did see His coming to the disciples on Pentecost.. but I don't believe that equates to His return to the Earth and the millennium. And believe there's way too many verses about a literal return to the Earth to beccme mere symbol.. and I don't think the reason the warnings and signs are given to cause fear, but to cause LESS concern.. Especially before said signs actually appear..
"Many" also in this day "come in His name and even saying He is Messiah, But they do and will lead many astray.. imo, about many things. But i believe if we continue to read His Word(s) (vs. teachings?) the pieces of understanding will become clearer and clearer.
:Peace2: :gsmile:
Is it the understanding of full preterist that hesus does not literally return to Earth? Do you believe He was resurrected with a literal body? The account of eating.. and touch my hands, my side.. see that a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as a literal occurrence?
Does full preterist - I am partial - believe a "New Jerusalem" will literally come out of heaven (Rev.21) and be capital of the earth or is only metaphor for believers? Which by that time will be all.. Does full preterist believe God will make heaven and earth new? The old said to be wore out like a garment (corruption being a part of the fall/subjection/vanity).. Does full preterist believe Jesus returns and believers rise at that time? And do they believe the unsaved will rise to a resurrection of judgment? "After the thousand years"? (Rev.20)
Thanks, God bless..
QuoteHe was resurrected with a literal body? The account of eating.. and touch my hands, my side.. see that a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as a literal occurrence?
Yes a literal occurrence in a corporal body.
Before addressing those other question, I would like to give a head start on the first chapter of Revelation just to refresh. :gimmefive:
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John
The book is loaded with symbolism the first century Christians understood, an epistle of immediate encouragement and warnings. "blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" V3
It was penned to the seven church in Asia."John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia" v4
An epistle of immediate encouragement, and warning to their situation. "BLESSED IS HE that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND." Revelation 1:3
Obviously to me not thousands of years later.
Thanks for reading, and the opportunity for posting.
Hi! ..I don't disagree! I simply think it's like most other prophecy, at least two fold, what I think some call parallelism..
An excellent example of this, to me - whether I'm right or wrong about the symbolism, lol - is the first beast in Rev.13, the 'bigger' one, verses 1-10 (as opposed to 11-18 of the littler one, an individual, or office for we have his number..)
In the description of this particular beast - in prophecy "beasts" are governings, other than God's - He has a head which expires, but then it is again - perfect example of the Roman Empire.. you had the Emperor's, which system expired then came back as the Holy Roman Empire.. Beast/s of yesteryear - where a lot of prophecy buffs are stuck. (imo)
But today.. we also have a 'world'/big body which was, then wasn't, it's head expiring, when the head of it didn't sign on afterall! (When I prayed to understand Bible prophecy what came very strongly to mind, to look at the world around me. Tho the insight/idea about a specific last days body that expired, then was, was told to me by another many years ago.
...After the prayer and told to look around me, the pieces fell in place.. Via the Word and His Spirit of course.. from a Picasso to a ? Monet..?)
I'm talking about, of course a present day world body - it's even in Daniel, where it talks about a treaty, agreement, covenant, one of its word uses, is league. Pres.Woodrow Wilson was the one who dreamed it up but then the u.s didn't sign on, and it expired. But after the event of 13:13, it was rebuilt and one day the head will be fully reattached which will finally give breath/authority to the big beast/body..
(I think I've inadvertantly gone down my Bible prophecy rabbit hole..)
Like Mt.24, the disciples said to Jesus, "tell us when will these things be?" (An interlinear trans.) (Temple and buildings fall, no stone left atop another, cr? Dn.12:11?oops rabbit hole). — "And What is the sign of your coming and of the consummation of the age?" (Int.trans.)
I believe, yes the consummation of 70 a.d... Now look at Rev. The first horseman of the apocalypse Who is riding a white horse and He goes forth conquering and to conquer.. He has openly triumphed over powers and principalities.. I believe this rider on a "white horse" (Rev.19) to be the gospel and its ride continues (progresses) throughout the entire age of the years of our Lord, A.D. - A new age after 70A.D. (The horsemen and seals, rev.6, are told, or described here as a blend of their first and their last, at full progression and maturity. This is like a lock on the vision!) Yes, rabbit hole, but I really couldn't avoid it.. Showing the new age after 70a.d.
And, like the prophesying about His two comings.. also, I believe, often told as a blend, or better, in the same breath.
It's also believed by some, that His return was at Pentecost and was the outpouring of the HS.. And that now He rules and we are in the millennium.. though of course, it's been 2000 years and not a thousand.. so the thousand is only symbol also.. not believed to be literal..
And of course, it's believed He returned at 70 A.D., is that right?
Does this view include Jesus returning literally to the Earth one day? And God Himself tabernacling with mankind upon Earth? Setting up headquarters - I guess I think of it as - where Jerusalem is now? Or is this thought to be only symbolism of spiritual matters? And not also manifest physically..?
I wonder what you think of verses like - 2 Thessalonians 2:8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival"..?
:Peace2: God bless!
The main problem I have with preterism is the term itself. When we identify our beliefs with a word that represents a certain system of theological belief other people will assume that we adhere to the bulk of that systems doctrine. Many preterists I have spoken with do not believe in the corporeal, physical resurrection.
I believe the book of revelations is, primarily, prophetic word pictures and parables of God and the body of Christ, in the now. It is is the "unveiling" and it is written for a Day that was and is and is to come.
So to the extent that preterist, partial preterist, hyper preterist, etc....believe in interpreting the word of God in the now, I find fellowship and an association of ideas, but to the extent that preterist hook everything into 70AD, although that was certainly a fulfillment of prophecy by Messiah to Israel, I see very little evidence for the broad extension preterists make to that as the fulcrum upon which the New Testament and Old Testament pivot.
So while everything necessary for fulfillment was secured by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ- it is written in several places, (Ephesians 1:9-11 and 1 Cor 15:23-28 for ex.) that God is working the fulfillment out as a process involving ages, in which we are still in the midst. As I read it, even the coming)epiphania, parousia, erchomai) of Christ will not be the end of God's plan in the ages.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world because the sacrifice Lamb was the Logos of God from the beginning. and God always planned that the whole creation would be subject to futility so that the whole creation could know the joy of redemption. But, as Paul declares it "an administration suitable to the fulness of times" and "each in their own order" until "the creation is set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
Hope that is fulfilled is not longer hope, but we wait for it patiently, resting assured because Jesus said, "It if finished" and fulfilled His promise and prophecy "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."
In time, God authored the New Testament in the birth of Jesus and fulfilled it in His resurrection and delivered it in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to us, His body, the "first fruits of creation"(James 1:18)
Even now the New Jerusalem, God's holy city, is "coming down out of heaven" in the form of the body of Christ.
Amen, our citizenship, even now, is in Jerusalem above.. :cloud9:
Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2So I said, "Where are you going?" And he said to me, "To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is." 3And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him, 4and said to him, "Run, speak to that young man, saying, 'Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the multitude of men and cattle within it. 5'For I,' declares the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'"
If God is a wall of fire around Jerusalem and the glory in her midst- we are the New Jerusalem, His bride "coming down out of heaven".
The fire of God protects(surrounds, enfolds) the city ("you are a city set on a hill"). The glory of God sustains it.
22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Revelations 21
It is being built, living stone by living stone, as a "habitation of God in the spirit" to be a "house of prayer for all people", for all time.
In Daniel 7 there is a "river of fire" coming from the throne and myriads of angels surround it, as well as the thrones of the redeemed who reign with Christ- "Know you not you will judge the world?"
Fire consumes and transforms- no one will enter without passing through the fire of judgment, everyone who passes through judgment will enter the glory for mercy triumphs over judgment...
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
His eyes are as flames of fire. His feet are like burnished bronze. His hair is white as wool and "He will be like a fuller soap and a refiners fire" when He appears.
He has passed through the fire as well and led the way for us to be reconciled "by the blood of His cross"(Col 1)
Everything hinges on the mercy of God displayed in "Christ, the image of God"...."The radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature".
That is why I think that all prophecy is centered upon the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the ultimate victory- not the judgment of earthly Israel.
I believe the lake of fire is the door through which all who have rejected God will enter into life, and I think that lake is the gathering of saints and angels around the throne of God which sits upon Mt Zion aand the New Jerusalem.
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Rev 14
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Heb 12
9"I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10"A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened. Dan 7
"Come, Let us reason together, says the Lord, though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white as snow" Isaiah 1:18
We tend to look at judgment as horrifying and terrible but altho it has an aspect of awe and reverential fear, it is for the destruction of the towers and strongholds built by sin and the repentance, reconciliation and release of the sinner.
Amen.. I totally agree.. Yet I also believe in literal fulfillment (as individual and also collective/spiritual and also manifest, and) just as His prophesied first coming was literally fulfilled. And the whole thing to me is very glorious as the blueprint and draft of God, of teaching all good from evil, which I think is also life from death. And by this He is writing His law upon every heart and mind.. sealing all. And I believe thus also sealing paradise, or perfection (that is).
That it isn't only the us, He's creating.. but the whole thing, from His very first act of creating.. what it is He is building.. a temple of which we all are a stone of.. absolutely. But looking at the vastness, the great vastness of the universe, and the unbelievable array of life upon Earth, one planet alone.. I think it too is glorious.. and will be made new..made new implying something that is made new.. not a completely and totally new something. The glory of what He is creating we only see a slight shadow of.. And it is still immensely glorious.
Once in awhile we can still come across the extreme which I think is residue from the gnostics to not only underestimate the creation - it may be subject to vanity now, but in the beginning it was all good, and man's fall, I believe, having come first implies cause and effect as being vice versa of what the gnostics strongly believed - that man fell into matter; and carnality and flesh means body. Rather than the carnal character which is self seeking.. Of such were the Nicolaitans, I believe, which "thing" we know He says He hates.. because it leads astray.. pollutes God's temple. I think this is the source of Et's floating off to heaven afterlife vision, of a floating around, unsubstantial, bodiless afterlife, being inherently immortal but having fallen into the bad thing, matter, the universe.. All that, I believe, stems from disrespect of, or doubting the goodness of what God is creating and has created. So a "made new" earth and paradise, is abhorrent to them, well, the gnostics, that is/was, maybe not to all Et'ers. :faint:
"What good is it" Paul wrote, to the Corinthians(1) "if Christ did not rise" literally - "if Christ did not rise - then those who have fallen asleep in Christ are perished.."
1 Larry H, I forgot to mention how the verses in Revelation - "soon" are more closely read "quickly" as in "occurs quickly"
As in - Rev.1:1 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-1.htm
"Berean Literal Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John,"
I was reading some of the commentary on biblehub also, and I agree with these (and more, but I won't copy/post it all :laughing7: (from: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/1-1.htm (https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/1-1.htm))
Quote -
Shortly.—On this word much controversy has turned. Its force, “speedily,” affords a groundwork, and, it must be admitted, a plausible one, to the præterist school of interpreters, who hold that the whole range of Apocalyptic predictions was fulfilled within a comparatively short time after the Apostle wrote. The truth, however, seems to be that the words of God are of perpetual fulfilment: they are not only to be fulfilled; they have not only been fulfilled; but they have been and they are being fulfilled; and they yet will be fulfilled; and the principles which are enunciated by the Prophet, though “shortly” fulfilled, are not exhausted in the immediate fulfilment, but carry still lessons for the succeeding generations of mankind.
Benson Commentary
Revelation 1:1. The book opens with the title or inscription of the book itself, and an account of the scope and design of it, namely, to foretel things which should shortly begin to be fulfilled, and should succeed in their due season and order till all were accomplished. The Revelation — Properly so called; for things covered before, are here revealed, or unveiled. No prophecy in the Old Testament has this title; it was reserved for this alone in the New. It is, as it were, a manifesto, wherein the Heir of all things declares, that all power is given him in heaven and earth..
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
1:1-3 This book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ; the whole Bible is so; for all revelation comes through Christ, and all relates to him. Its principal subject is to discover the purposes of God concerning the affairs of the church, and of the nations as connected therewith, to the end of the world. These events would surely come to pass; and they would begin to come to pass very shortly. Though Christ is himself God, and has light and life in himself, yet, as Mediator between God and man, he receives instructions from the Father. To him we owe the knowledge of what we are to expect from God, and what he expects from us. The subject of this revelation was, the things that must shortly come to pass. On all who read or hear the words of the prophecy, a blessing is pronounced. Those are well employed who search the Bible. It is not enough that we read and hear, but we must keep the things that are written, in our memories, in our minds, in our affections, and in practice, and we shall be blessed in the deed. Even the mysteries and difficulties of this book are united with discoveries of God, suited to impress the mind with awe, and to purify the soul of the reader, though he may not discern the prophetic meaning. No part of Scripture more fully states the gospel, and warns against the evil of sin.
(which to me is anything not built on The Rock, cannot endure.. cannot remain standing for ever.. Because the foundations other than The Rock, always will crumble, being true both individually and collectively.)
:Peace2:
I do plan to look up some of the other "soon" uses... Because, as we know, truth is in His Word.. As He delivered it, I would assume.. meaning translators are not infallible. :gsmile:
..."The lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow".. It'd be sad, to me, to think we've seen the fullness of that fulfilled.. (of course that's not in Mt.24, but the prophesies throughout are so similar..)
QuoteI forgot to mention how the verses in Revelation - "soon" are more closely read "quickly" as in "occurs quickly"
Yay! :banana:
Hi ...you got some good stuff there, however I would like to get back to your original posted questions how some in the full preterist camp view the New Jerusalem. Strangely enough the book of Genesis paves the way for the answer. In other words the bible begin and ends with that thought in mind.
When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit as we know they were sentence to death. However the only death they suffered was sin death i.e. spiritual death which is separation from God. "your iniquities have separated you from your God;" Isaiah 59:2 Followed by the pairs eviction from the Garden of Eden. Isolated from the "Tree of Life"
That would suggest that Adam was not born with the prospect of biological eternal life to begin with outside of God's arrangement through Christ.
In other words If they had not sinned "which would deviate from God's original
purpose" they would have died of old age anyway.
QuoteIf God is a wall of fire around Jerusalem and the glory in her midst- we are the
New Jerusalem, His bride "coming down out of heaven"
Excellent, I was getting ready for the same answer, and you took all the fun out of it. However I would take that a little further and say we are now residing in the New Heavens and Earth mention in Rev.21
:dontknow: I don't know..
Is it the word "olam" that includes often, as part of it, the whole.. It seems like a pattern I see over and over in the scriptures. That nothing is so much like a straight line as like a circle(?)
So to say things were coming soon, the end of one thing and the beginning of another.. and told to keep the things written, seems to imply throughout the age.. and not all fulfilled so early on.
But full preterist is better than full futurist! That one takes the book and vision and locks it in a box titled 7 years only. Oy. I think best thing is to just keep it out teading schedule each year.. or whenever the Spirit leads, of course.
It seems to imply to me, parts of the first chapter, and the last too, that to understand it ("hear it") is to be "blessed", which sounds good, as we're pretty blessed already! :mlaugh:
I agree the beginning of all things being made new is with us already.. as the new Jerusalem, but I expect to see much more concrete fulfillment. And I guess time will tell..
What is the full preterist view of the future? Does anything happen to change the age we're in, or does life and generations and nations rising and falling continue into all foreseeable future..?
Thanks, God bless!
QuoteWhat is the full preterist view of the future? Does anything happen to change the age we're in, or does life and generations and nations rising and falling continue into all foreseeable future..?
Yes, that seems to be the scenario of the full preterist view since they believe all things were fulfilled in the first century. My take is a little different then the full Preterist ending, we die, and enter into the heavenly household of God in the likeness of Jesus.
In short this life is only a bus stop to the next. I don't find it strange that in the natural order of this planet all things get eradicated, including the biological human being. Since Adam and Eve never did have eternal life in the first place prior to the fall.
God left them, all with the blood of Adam, with a free will to choose for themselves in a world of corruption which I think caused the scenario question. It seem to me this world with never be a paradise as suggest by those who take Revelation 21:4 literally.
Before 70 a.d the believers were "waiting for Jesus". Were they eagerly awaiting the happening of 70A.D?
It would be interesting to know if any Old Testament believers thought prophesies of His coming, and His suffering/passion was symbolic (spiritual application) and not literal...
:Peace2: :girlheart:
p.s. - What is Rev.3:10 believed to refer to? An "hour of trial coming upon the whole world"?
QuoteWhat is Rev.3:10 believed to refer to? An "hour of trial coming upon the whole world"?
Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
The word World in the Greek which confuses what John meant.
If John wanted to use the word world, meaning out planet, He would have used the word kosmos. But he didn't he used oikoumene which refers to the Roman Empire.
World NT:3625 oikoumene (oy-kou-men'-ay); feminine participle present passive of NT:3611 (as noun, by implication of NT:1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; SPECIFICALLY, THE ROMAN EMPIRE: Strong's Greek
The King James Version has created a paradigm which scholars today are trying to sort out of the mind programmed by that version .
Luke 2::1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. KJV
Compare
Luke 2:1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the ENTIRE ROMAN WORLD NIV
Oh I agree with that.. lots of crazy stuff to keep things vague.. a spiritual conspiracy! (Is the one conspiracy I believe in for sure!)
Also the word said to be "world" can be rather, age.. :dsunny:
But I'm reminded of a few things.. how Jesus said to Thomas after His resurrection how Thomas was blessed to see, but even more blessed are those who believe but have not seen.. Which is of course all the rest of us..
He also told the disciples He would be with them until the completion/consummation of the age. And of course it does read, as do so many things, as though He is speaking to all believers throughout the generations and not only to the disciples..
I can't think that Jesus was only with believers until 70a.d.
However, the whole revelation visit fits in the first horseman of the apocalypse/vision/unveiling. That riding forth on white horse and victor's crown - often translated wreath and made a big deal of, but then translated elsewhere as crown "diadem". Jesus "forever pre-eminent" over "all". But "everything is not yet under His feet, for He must reign until all is under His feet so that God may be all in all".
What a beautiful plan of God... This sealing of all..
The going forth.. ride through the latter age, the years of the Lord, A.D. of the victorious gospel. The whole vision is in that white horse with rider - the ride of the gospel throughout the age.. (I'm repeating myself, I know.) See white horse and rider in chapter 19. coincidence? No. Ignored? Yes. Gotta keep the vision securely locked in a box called 7 years only. :laughing7:
The first horseman of the apocalypse - totally preterist. And the rider is metaphor/simile. But represents the literal going forth/ride of the gospel - victorious. (He's wearing the winner's wreath.)
But chapter 19, is like Jude quoted "from Enoch, 7th from Adam" how "He will come with myriads of angels.." which is exactly what is described in Rev.19.
And in my mind, totally futurist. Is that the right word?
"He must reign until all things are under Him, but we see not all things yet under Him" 1Cor.15:22–>28
Who are these teaches teaching it is all only simile..? Two sided attack? The schools, even Christian, teach creation, Adam, Eve.. all simile only.. And a great "falling away" has occurred. But signs of the times seem to be veiled..
Now I hear the consummation and end of the age is also only simile..
When Daniel prophesied "wars will continue to the end" - does this mean always there shall be the horror of war and all inhumane doings and activities? Is the Earth like a penal colony where 'souls' are sent for re-education? Like I think Mormons believe.. we are the fallen angels? Then the soul returns to God. Or maybe that's just an urban legend! What a fascinating book the Bible is.. that so many creative stories come out of it.. (Truly.) People should write them into novels like the Harry Potter books.. I have one in my head, if I could just get it written!
I still think full preterist or full futurist are both extremes, and truth is much closer to the middle. Which I think is most often the way it is, somewhere in the middle.
:Peace2:
QuoteAlso the word said to be "world" can be rather, age..
Excelled Point, age instead of world in Matthew 24, it changes the whole concept of the great prediction by Jesus of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Jewish Temple. Not so great however for those poor souls who were trapped in their place of worship as the wall came down under divine intervention. Carried out by the Roman armies and their cohorts, set forth by Nero the beast of Revelation.
Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
QuoteBut I'm reminded of a few things.. how Jesus said to Thomas after His resurrection how Thomas was blessed to see, but even more blessed are those who believe but have not seen.. Which is of course all the rest of us..
"I think that the bottom line is that people refuse to believe, because they have to see it to believe it. I'm reminded of what Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21.
Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst. *or among you
Jesus said to them that people wouldn't be able to point to it and say that it's over here or over there. In other words, it's not an observable kingdom. And yet, what are Christians "looking for" today? They, like the Pharisees, want to be able to" point to it and say that it's here! If it were an observable kingdom, then everyone would believe"
God Bless