TWO Lakes of Fire?

[marie glen]

The resurection at the start of the millenium is saints only. So no LoL there.

Wasn't that Revelation verse about the dead not being raised until the 1000 years were over added later on though?

And Kingdoms reign over people. What would be the purpose of reigning over already perfect Saints, or over no one? Unless it is some type of training ground...

I think that the usage of fire and light and lightning, etc. should be thought of in relation to each other, not as separate things. Since people's secrets are being revealed, wouldn't the "intense heat" be "intense light?" And their secrets being revealed?

:Chinscratch: I wonder if there were Old Testament saints who believed the coming of Messiah, virgin/maiden birth, His being beat etc.. and rising - not left in 'hades' to corrupt/rot --- were metaphor?

I have to think, according to the verses, that even if "after the thousand years" was added to clarify, and I have no idea if it was or not.. no research.. but even if.. it doesn't change much, if anything..

Rev 20 -

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. - ? 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

wonder what the Greek is? "reign"

Satanic Rebellion Crushed (#2 lof, imo)
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the (world)beast/body(imo) and the false prophet/teaching are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Not humans (imo) alive at His coming but institutions active at His coming..)

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God
:gsmile:

[WhiteWings]

The resurection at the start of the millenium is saints only. So no LoL there.

Wasn't that Revelation verse about the dead not being raised until the 1000 years were over added later on though?

You mean corruption of Scripture

And Kingdoms reign over people. What would be the purpose of reigning over already perfect Saints, or over no one? Unless it is some type of training ground...

Rev. 20:4 ¶ Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those wwho had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev. 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

I understand that as the saints being resurrected and start reigning. Not over themselves but others.
The sheep and goats stay dead during their reign.

[WhiteWings]

The resurection at the start of the millenium is saints only. So no LoL there.

Perhaps you misunderstood me.. I was talking about Earthly events.. namely the last battle Armageddon.. Of course thermonuclear did not exist when Ezekiel penned his "prophesies".. And when Jesus gave the Revelation vision to John.. And in the minds of many, even tho it changed so much about the world, it still doesn't exist, is all I can assume..

What I wrote was - um, no, :doh: what I meant to write was - Tares (of the time) gathered to Armageddon so no wonder you didn't get it, I suppose.. tho it seems relatively obvious to me..

I'm not so sure the fervent heat is real or mocking the Greeks.

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/Elements.html

And so they believe there are no elements of earth and sky? And yes.. no more Greek 'gods'..

Perhaps the resurrection is parable to confound the Saducees.. (kidding, lol)

I think all those parables state facts. Sometimes in a mocking way. The way the story in told is dependant on the listners.
The parable fits the culture. So Jew or Greek audience may make a difference.

Perhaps Hades is simpler example. Why does the Bible mention Hades?
a] It's just a Greek translation of the name of a Jewish god?
b] It's mocking the very existance of Greek gods?
c] It acknowledges Greek gods do exist, but mocks their weakness when opposing Jesus?
d] Something else.

Berean Study Bible
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.

[[ The Day Of the LORD beginning w/ the trumpets of Rev and ending with the all in all event.. ]]

Berean Literal Bible
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and elements will be dissolved, burning with heat, and the earth and the works in it will not be found.

Young's Literal Translation
and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

Your view is that everytime is wiped out/heated up, by a full scale nuclear war. Right?
I agree that most certainly qualify as heat.
Will God's earth be vapourized so much that He's forced to make everything new.
A nuclear blast doesn't discriminate and will wipe out good Christians too.

I hold a more spiritual view. At least as a good possibility.
It's a war against false believes "elements".  It's no secret the majority of the world doesn't believe in Christ. I think even if He returns that doesn't change much. He can quote from Scripture like many preachers. But what good will that do if the majority believe the whole Bible is a fairytale. The majority of who believe the Bible will reject His message as herical because it doesn't fit within the 'truth' of their denomination.

So... it's my belief so devine awakening takes place. A holy wave will pass over the earth and rips away all veils that allow people to see past their wrong believes. The element (wrong teachings) will be destroyed.
I fully admit I don't know what exactly is going to happen, but I think a nuclear war is not what's hinted at in those verses.

[MusicLover123]

I understand that as the saints being resurrected and start reigning. Not over themselves but others.

Who is "others?"

[WhiteWings]

I understand that as the saints being resurrected and start reigning. Not over themselves but others.

Who is "others?"

The whole world. But that has to be read with caution.

Christ rules a 1000 years until everything is put under His feet. For me that means:
a] The saints rule under the authority of Christ who is their King.
b] It takes a long time until everyone bows to the saintly rulers/Christ. So at the start "others" means likely "almost nobody".

I think things haven't been much different since creation. theFather always was, is and will be the big Boss of creation.
Does that mean all bow before Him? Far from. Even His own people rebelled many times. The rest of creation isn't any better.
A bit like a teacher in front of a class he can't handle. He's their boss but the pupils don't care.
Obviously theFather always had the power to take control with a single tought. But that's not how He seems to work.
Christ has very real and extensive powers when He returns. He has legions of angels at His disposal. As we read in the OT a single angle can annihilate an army in a single night. But again we see a different approach. Instead of starting a blitz krieg and settle things on the day He returns, a plan that looks like a long 1000 year detour is followed.

I'm sure Christ and His heavenly army can be just as devistating as a nuclear war. But... that doesn't seem to fit in the big masterplan.
Finally what does 'under His feet' mean? The usual understanding is close to enslavement.
I tend to think that's not what it's going to look like. I think people start to see Christ is right, good and truly teaches what's right and good. Something that people willingly submit to.
They bow in agreement. Not because some brutal angel forces them to kneel before Christ.
Every knee will bow... click

[marie glen]

I understand that as the saints being resurrected and start reigning. Not over themselves but others.

Who is "others?"

Earthly survivors after apocalypse.. we don't go to heaven.. Jesus returns to earth..

Paul wrote about ages following Christ's return, not age.

Then after the millennium(age)is "the Judgment". It seems to me the ET gospel assumes the Judgment is very brief.. resurrection of all not saved and dump them into the lof, which they think is hell.. the belief is they go straight to hell at death, and then after Judgment reunited with their body so the torment will be as bad as possible.. yes I actually read that somewhere. That sounds highly illogical to me (the whole thing/scenario), and seems logical to me that "the judgment" would be an excellent learning/teaching opportunity, that I can't imagine being wasted..  :2c:

[marie glen]

I understand that as the saints being resurrected and start reigning. Not over themselves but others.

Who is "others?"

The whole world. But that has to be read with caution.

Christ rules a 1000 years until everything is put under His feet. For me that means:
a] The saints rule under the authority of Christ who is their King.
b] It takes a long time until everyone bows to the saintly rulers/Christ. So at the start "others" means likely "almost nobody".

I think things haven't been much different since creation. theFather always was, is and will be the big Boss of creation.
Does that mean all bow before Him? Far from. Even His own people rebelled many times. The rest of creation isn't any better.
A bit like a teacher in front of a class he can't handle. He's their boss but the pupils don't care.
Obviously theFather always had the power to take control with a single tought. But that's not how He seems to work.
Christ has very real and extensive powers when He returns. He has legions of angels at His disposal. As we read in the OT a single angle can annihilate an army in a single night. But again we see a different approach. Instead of starting a blitz krieg and settle things on the day He returns, a plan that looks like a long 1000 year detour is followed.

I'm sure Christ and His heavenly army can be just as devistating as a nuclear war. But... that doesn't seem to fit in the big masterplan.
Finally what does 'under His feet' mean? The usual understanding is close to enslavement.
I tend to think that's not what it's going to look like. I think people start to see Christ is right, good and truly teaches what's right and good. Something that people willingly submit to.
They bow in agreement. Not because some brutal angel forces them to kneel before Christ.
Every knee will bow... click

Amen.. the millennium reign.. then is the resurrection of all not saved during their lifetime.

And I believe that age will be much like the millennium, but with more weeping, some gnashing of teeth, and even some outer darkness of soul/heart. The real Day of Atonement. :2c:

[marie glen]

ps I didn't mean thermonuclear as the all in all event /all things made new. I guess I just assume to collapse all that matter will involve elements dissolving and being fiery.

Plus the reference to lof I assume to be after Judgment Day, (end Rev.20) but before "all things made new" (Rev.21)  Yet w/ God's Spirit of consuming fire, purifying (and drawing?) Presence during the Judgment..

[marie glen]

I just had to add one more post..

I dug up an old copy of a James Moffett translation of the New Testament I have, but have not read much. When reading Rev.20:14 /11-14 ...John saw a great white throne.. and wrote how he “saw the dead, high and low, standing before the throne.. and books were opened. And another book, the book of life was opened — and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. The sea gave up its dead, death and hades gave up their dead, and all were judged by what they had done. Then, death and hades were flung into the lake of fire, and whoever was not found enrolled in the book of life was flung into the lake of fire..”

This translation even more suggested to me that the lof is aFter the Judgment, and the being flung there occurs at the “all in all” (event). Which I believe “no humans in lof”.

19:20 being ‘institutions’ of man active at the time of Jesus’ return.

And seriously, what gets one’s name written in the book of life? And this is how I believe God revealed these things, with this question coming to mind - if Ifound myself raised after death upon Judgment ‘Day’ - as not yet saved - what would be the odds of my still noT believing, and thus rejoicing greatly to be alive, and thus happily bending the knee?

Or, if I’d been in limbo and then my body was raised and I found myself back in my body and the judgment was occurring, what are the chances that I, everyday gramma, would not then “believe”? Logically, not being a great hater of God or anything, wouldn’t I believe sometime during limbo?

Since it is a fable that one cannot be drawn to Jesus after death (and resurrection) - and Jesus said He would draw ALL to Himself (Jn.12:32) I couldn’t really argue with what was unfolding to my understanding. And I saw it as a last nail in the coffin of ET, and also of believing any humans even go to lof. (Please excuse the pun :laughing7: ) And after studying the book (prayerfully) along with the rest of the books of the Bible, especially NT, for almost 40 years, I would expect the pieces to come together.. And since the different parts of the body are for the benefit of all members of the body, even tho I am nobody, i do try to share this. I think it’s part of the - big picture. And SO supports UR.

When I had read those verses this morning.. judgment concludes, it seemed like to me, and if anyone was found (still) not written in the book - of life/of living (of believing) they were flung to the lof.. which presented itself to my mind as a being caught up into it.. as the “all in all” ‘event’ occurred, which making all things new will indeed, surely involve the final consuming of all and anything still impure.. “our God is a consuming fire” so His becoming all in all, could surely resemble a lake of fiery transformation and consuming of all impurity, and thus I have to believe is when those of the second resurrection get their new bodies.. the old ones not being yet made new - I mean it’s not like they would “put on immortality and incorruptibility” before being reconciled.. Yet ALL things are “made new”.
  God bless :Peace2: