Punishment

[GodIsLove]

What do you all think punishment in the Bible refers to?

On earth, we deal with others, such as children and criminals, by punishing bad behavior and rewarding good. But this often has results that are unintended:

For example a child learns to lie or hide their misbehavior to avoid punishment. On the other side, sometimes people stop bad behavior for fear of punishment but they still desire to do bad...they  don't actually stop because they have learned or had a change of heart, but for selfish reasons.
Or people can be in jail and punished, only to be released and fall back into old habits.  Sometimes people actually act out more after being punished because the punishment made them feel so badly that they want to hurt others even more.

It seems to me that punishment doesn't "work" to change someone's heart and because of this, I wonder about the theory that people will be punished in the after life.

Paying for their sins with some sort of punishment seems to be an earthy idea, like eye for an eye, which was superseded by forgiveness and turning the other cheek. God's ways are higher than ours, and we desire retribution...

Personal experience (myself and others) tells me that it's more complex than just offend-punishment-reconciliation for the "unsaved."

I don't know what will bring about their change of heart but it seems more along the lines of "Saul why do u persecute me?" Than fiery judgment.

Thoughts?

[marie glen]

I so totally agree! Lately I think i'm starting to wonder if most - if not all? - punishment (ultimately) is self inflicted? (Except consequences?) And if this is some sort of natural law. That the way we are built/designed, we WILL feel much remorse and 'gnashing of teeth' if you will, especially if we have been some horrible wicked abuser, oppressir and killer of others.. And 'burningshame' in ones own heart. But also, to consider, I think, is even the worst, most horrible offenders were 'allowed' by God's plan to 'descend' that low.. like God moves His hand aside.. that sin and self first is like an abyss and bottomless pit.. As in "how low can one go?"..  I think one of the things our Heavenly Father is teaching us all is pthat even the tiniest grain of sin or wandering out of His perfect will, has in it the whole range of horror that is ever possible.

But because He has put all under or into disobedience (that He may have mercy on all) seems to me to support the idea that His work is corrective. (With a big hug at the end! Any good mother knows that! :gsmile: :thumbsup: ) A good parent of even the worst bully will try to correct and guide and teach, not merely punish, much less torment! :faint: "The Spirit will "convince" the world of sin". I think Revelation just kind of skips over the next ages. That the not yet turned (by God) rise and are simply cast/thrust into fiery purification doesn't sound logical to me. I think a lot of 'fiery judgment' is outcomes. If I've been wealthy, but mean and selfish.. and end my days utterly alone and bitter.. or the violent come to a violent end.. All food for though when I awake from my grave and sleep of death.. And also the national lessons and outcomes and then "the end" when we are about to annihilate all and the planet.. All good food for thought when learning to understand fully, good from evil. I guess that's what I lean toward thinking what punishment and torment is.

[rosered]

What do you all think punishment in the Bible refers to?

   I have considered the Holy Spirit stays with us   once we  are awakened  and aware   always , and never leaves us .
Psalms 73 Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand. You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.

In our weakness God is our strength ,  this to me ca only come by His Holy Spirit of grace upon us .

  Just as David was  told by the Lord in 2  Samuel 7    the punishment will be done  by the LORD allowing   the sons of men  and rods of the sons of men   to chasten    with iniquity/ error  is committed .. I do see this also as corrective punishment

13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.


14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men,

15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.

16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.'"

  Jesus told them  your sons will be your judges   

Matt 12 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself.

How then can his kingdom stand?

27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul,  by whom do your sons drive them out?

So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you....

This particular scripture puzzled me for many years   until I realized that   everyone is unjust judges  when  judging according to the flesh   that was judged   from the start   as good as dead already /corruption , never considering the powers and principalities in the high places  seating themselves as gods  until you are  awaked to the   glory and presence of God  and  that substance of faith is  given  truth and grace to grow into as the inner man/spiritual being  of the heart.

The Holy Spirit of truth is the only just judge  of heaven and earth and below   , Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit  and walks among mankind to this day , in the sense of scriptures testifying , as the least you have done unto one of these you have done  it unto me ...   The CHRIST  in you  the hope of glory , this special  anointing  of Gods  Word and Spirit within you is  a  continual witness    in the heavenly courts system .  Loving God first and others as yourselves  is walking the in the Spirit of Light and Life .

I have also considered  over   the course  and though the experiences , one never  really understands  what the Spirit is saying without the experiences    changing us and repenting or changing our minds   from carnal   thinking   to  spiritual thinking on many matters   , and thinking past the  moment  we find ourselves being tested  in unrighteous mammon / things of the world

  and the be faithful in the smallest of matters  , an example , like someone  accidently giving you 20$  extra  and you  being honest give it back  , instead of keeping it  for yourself , because if they had short changed  you a 20$   you might  speak up  and say  somthing  or you might  just take the loss ...
  The hearts motive  proves  faith or lack of  faith ,  every time  of what manner of spirit   we are of .

  GOD is the Father of spirits  and corrects  and purifies  them all the time to make and mold them into a better use  and witness  to Gods glory .

  Hebrews 12 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else,
then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

9 Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them.

Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?

10 Our fathers disciplined us for a short time as they thought best,

but God disciplines us for our good, so that we may share in His holiness....

  Romans 5 3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us....

  I hope the inner man of the heart is rejoicing over  all  the sufferings as my old man of sin  hates it and  dying  to self is painful .
  but both natures prove   GODS POWER     over   this weakened flesh  that is meant to die   for the Holy Spirit is our strength  to endure   all things  life and death  are ours  to experience  , the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak .. learning to depend on the  Holy Spirit    more and more and less and less   on what I thought I knew  , trusted  and believed in  far to long .

Having  this hope  alive is amazing  and exciting  especially since Jesus is the resurrection and the Life   and to  promise that even if we die we will live  and if we LIVE for Him  now  we will never die !!    I find that  a  totally amazing   TRUTH    to cling too just for trusting in HIM  to do these greater works of grace  to us all . :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

   I have considered the Holy Spirit stays with us   once we  are awakened  and aware   always , and never leaves us .
Psalms 73 Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand.

yes!

[rosered]

Woke up this morning   and  this come to me  :2c:
The knowledge of    GOD is our  true blessings and reward  OUR GREAT LIGHT  , if we Love God  we are blessed , but if we love the world and love money we are still in outer darkness and do not know anything about God
  It was somthing Jesus said  that really  hit the nail on the head ..

  About being faithful in a few things of the unjust riches or  worldly things , that faithful and honest trying to do the right things matters to God  and it is called obedience ..

  Luke 16   8The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the sons of this age are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the sons of light. 9I tell you, use worldly wealth to make friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, they will welcome you into eternal dwellings.
 
  So when you  have given all that you have ,like the widows mite  , God will come and  receive you unto the heavenly teachings and secret things of His most  holies . :2c:

10Whoever is faithful with very little will also be faithful with much,
and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. :eek:  even the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel  by nature . look at the world wars  and how they were despised by the kings of the earth .

11If, then, you have not been faithful with worldly wealth, who will entrust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been faithful with the belongings of another, who will give you belongings of your own?    13No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
       WOW !!  true identity   the inner spiritual   son of God  being connected to all things pertaining to Himself  and KNOWING GODS LOVE !!  complete Love casts our fear , fear of the unknown God that so many feared death because they did not know if they are doomed   forever or not ..
I think the fear of punishment is a punishment of itself !! :sigh:  the outer darkness /ignorance  of the ways of God  , so many still see God as a monster ready to kill and  punish  all but a handful for all eternity  :CryBaby:  and being cast out at any time for  failure to comply to the  rules that  many teachers that heap up heavy  loads impossible to bear  upon you while they    sit in Moses seat judging  everyone and everything that is not to their liking , it truly is the ministration of death  , that we all must come to the end of ourselves   and Let God now when all our strength is gone  , to lift us up out of the pit of despair  :2c:
  when we are done  serving the world   , we can now serve the Lord Jesus   Christ in the Spirit of truth and grace being so emptied   ,like  dead to the world ,   we need  the Holy Spirit to fill us up with  Light and Life  again  , that experience was Sauls / Pauls  on the road to Damascus ...
That is given the true riches of truth and grace  to grow up into!!  :2c: becoming strong and faithful  and being able to boldly speak  about God without the fear of  wrong doing such as  blaspheming His Holy Name  because the Holy Spirit will bear witness to your Spirit  that you are in the faith and love of God .. . :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen Rosie! ..as I was reading your posts and verses, I could clearly see the vast difference between "life" -- God, really.. His radiance, as life.. and the stark contrast of the shadow the darkness which is the pre-redemption state of life.. Not totally devoid or empty of God/life.. but the shadow of the valley.. (for I suppose to be totally devoid of life would be that total annihilation.. which there are times I think some could choose.. or actually all could choose.. But He is All-Powerful God.. and who really, when it comes right down to it, can choose to not live? :dontknow: It doesn't matter.. Jesus said He will draw all to Him! All in the heavens and in the earth.. Deuteronomy: I have set before thee this day, life or death.

:dsunny: :banana: :HeartThrob: ..but "He/she who believes in Me will never die aiōna"

    I have considered the Holy Spirit stays with us   once we  are awakened  and aware   always , and never leaves us .
Psalms 73 Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand.

     :HeartThrob:  :cloud9:

[jugghead]

For me ..... without the Spirit of the word, it will remain as what we are taught it is.

I believe that the nature of man (the flesh) has misunderstood what God meant when He said "an eye for an eye", the nature of man is: let the punishment fit the crime

For me, it is an exchange ..... the exchanging of one eye for another eye, in other words; the exchanging of how we view (see) something; do we see through an eye of law OR do we see through an eye of grace

If we view it as punishment; a result/an act of God through law --- than the love of God stays hidden
BUT
if we view it as correction; a result/an act of God through grace --- than the love of God is revealed

Correction is seeing that God loves us enough and wants to "correct" us (Love revealed/ correction through Grace)
Punishment is NOT seeing that God loves us enough and wants to "punish" us (Love hidden/punishment through Law)

For me ..... it is also seeing the Law of God through the eye of Grace

When I read the words "You shall have no other Gods before me",

it is:
a law that God obeys bringing about His work in us through Grace by His Spirit
NOT
a law that we obey bringing about our work in us through Law by our flesh(ly) spirit

Of which Spirit/spirit are we?
A spirit of punishment
OR
A Spirit of correction
OR
A mixture of both

My  :2c:

Discipline is a word that can be seen as punishment or training, I see it as training

"Training through Grace"
NOT
"Punishment through Law"

[Ross]

It seems to me that punishment doesn't "work" to change someone's heart and because of this, I wonder about the theory that people will be punished in the after life.

From my past I remember copping punishment- that corrected some things but not all. Even when explained to the point of knowing why the punishment had to happen.
Also was aware of "getting away" with some things which I tried to convince myself was part of my character.
Amazing how I thought I was doing MY best and growing in Christ. Dedicated to more prayer and study so as to personally grow.
That was for many years.
I NEVER felt that "peace" which goes beyond understanding UNTIL the recognition that CHRIST literally covers everything. Just like Paul states,
                                                      " It is no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me."
Knowing that He took all the punishment which I deserve and NAILED that to the cross, so that punishment cannot be removed, has totally corrected my values and  hence my behaviour.


1 Tim 1;9-11 " We know that the law is not valid for a righteous person but for the
                      lawless and rebellious,
                      irreligious and sinners,
                      unholy and profane,
                      those who beat their fathers and mothers,
                     murderers, fornicators,
                      men who practice homosexuality,
                      kidnappers, liars, perjurers,
                     and ANYTHING ELSE that is contrary to healthy teaching in conformity to the Gospel of the blessed God
                     with which I was entrusted."

I.M.O these highlight the acts which are punished, or deserve punishment, but does not change the behaviour patterns.
However, all necessary as part of learning so as to fully appreciate why the sacrifice of Christ and what that covers for ALL.
So judgment day will highlight all this information as part of the learning process.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: Amen!

And especially as Rose wrote, all only able to be done, in us, via God’s Holy Spirit..

Also interesting I think, concerning this topic..

- ”For if we were judging ourselves, we would not come under judgment.” 1 Cor. 11:31

[marie glen]

And there’s this.. Jesus said, which seems to equate “Judgment” with “regeneration”...?

Mt.19:28 -
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. - NIV
Young’s Literal -
And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit -- ye also -- upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;

This was all I was going to post, but then I fell into study mode, which I’ll leave here, not erase.. :doh:

:Chinscratch: of course that doesn’t mean a lot if (1) rev is only spiritual, or (2) if rev has been (fully) fulfilled..?

? Rev.19 worldly conclusion & return to Earth of Jesus;Rev.20 resurrection of the righteous in Jesus (RR?), some judging & the millennium/1000yrs; “after the 1000yrs, the resurrection of all not yet saved & Judgment ‘Day’ (Lev.23:27-32?), a lake of fire; Rev.21 the “all in all” (event?) ALL is/are? made new, new heavens & Earth, But “the sea is no more” (singular?)

..been pondering/studying lof/2nd death - (world ‘beast’ and false prophet/teacher/teaching? are cast into the lof.. at Jesus’ return; at end of millennium, fire descends and consumes rebels surrounding Jerusalem; then at the all in all event?

? 2 Peter’s “the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements will dissolve with burning heat.. but we look for a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness shall dwell” (for all :cloud9: ) The “day of the LORD” being the whole second advent of Jesus, But begins with the trumpets of rev? (ch7,fiery event begins it?) and “day of the LORD” is what comes as a thief in the night.. the return of Jesus pinpointed by rev.16:14,15,16. [Dan.12:12?]

[jugghead]

What do you all think punishment in the Bible refers to?

In the words of the apostle Paul, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1st Corinthians 13:11

It is a child who thinks they are being punished because they have not yet learned that their father is trying to correct them in the things they do and say --- and when they get older and do not yet understand this principle, then they too, punish their children rather than correct out of love

my  :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen! Even the worst of the worst, I think tecweeping, gnashing teeth and outer / inner? darkness all occurs because of the conscience and psyche.. And Jesus crucified not to satisfy some sort of 'wrath' of God or even because of His great sense of justice.. but I think because it's a strong enough image tonpierce every psyche with the realization of (1) how much God loves, and (2) enabled to be able to forgive their self.
:Peace2: :2c:

[marie glen]

Here’s a thought I’ve wondered before. And it may sound a little crazy!

Is it possible sin (“missing the mark” as we know, in the Greek) is the first death? And thus physical death is the 2nd death.. thus believers are not hurt by the 2nd death.. And earthly fiery judgments (results and consequences, actually?) - Especially man’s thermo nuclear + abilities they have going on.. wouldn’t all that be a lake of fire.. (& tares gathered to Armageddon?) I know ppl don’t like to think about such.. but, well, I don’t think that matters and it, Bible prophecy, doesn’t worry me in any way (especially as the gathering is to H’armageddon and I have no intention of ever going there, even should I live so long). I don’t know why it throws folks.. History is full of unpleasant things.. But all shall SO totally rejoice! And be fully convinced and fullybagree with our Father as to what is good and what is evil.

...there’s ‘the end’ when Jesus comes with fire and angels.. There’s the fire that falls upon those at the conclusion of the millennial age, who surround the city (Jerusalem) with evil intent/war! A lof?

Then what Peter wrote about the elements melting with a fervent heat, and the works of earth dissolved.. nevertheless (he wrote) we await a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness shall dwell” - the “all in all” event? But also a lof..? Radical? It’s not easy to change long held patterns of thinking about something..(?)
:Peace2:

P.S - but by time end of Judgment ‘Day’ all will have been drawn to Jesus and enrolled in the book of life? All the ends of Earth having remembered and turned to the LORD, and all families of the nations worshipping..” Jn.12:32; Ps.22:27. Thus no humans in rev. 20 lof.. the mention of outside in ch.22 is outside the rev. vision telling.. :smile: And the ones cast there “alive” at jesus’ return are institutions of man active at the time of His return(!?) Rev.19 (verse 20?)

[MusicLover123]

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 

The whole of Isaiah 53 applies here, but just to focus on this verse.

Num 20:11  And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

It is interesting to note, the Lord told Moses to speak to the rock for water to flow. Instead, he beat the rock (twice), and water flowed out of it abundantly. I think there is a parable in that. "Out of his belly shall flow out living waters"

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 

To put simply, Christ was beaten, much water came from Him, and from that water we are healed, and fulfilled.

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup: And baptizes us.. and fills us.. His side was pierced and out came water and blood..

[DavidFord]

the Lord told Moses to speak to the rock for water to flow. Instead, he beat the rock (twice), and water flowed out of it

Words can bring life, and words can kill.

Moses was to have spoken words to a rock, whereupon it would have gushed water (instead of obeying God's instructions to speak to the rock, Moses disobeyed and hit it with his staff) (Num 20:7-12)
Elijah spoke words, and incinerated 102 men (2 Kings 1:9-12)
Elisha spoke words, and 2 bears mauled 42 youth (2 Kings 2:23-24)

Jesus spoke words, and killed a fig tree (Mt 21:18-22)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a centurian's suffering, paralyzed servant (Mt 8:5-13)
Jesus spoke words, and stopped a storm (Mt 8:23-27)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a Canaanite's demonized daughter (Mt 15:21-28)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a demonized boy (Mt 17:14-18)
Jesus spoke words, and money for paying taxes showed up in a caught fish's mouth (Mt 17:27)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a demonized man (Mk 1:23-26)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a paralyzed man (Lk 5:24-25, Mt 9:6-7, Mk 2:10-12)
Jesus spoke words, and a blind man saw (Lk 18:41-43)
Jesus spoke words, and Lazarus revived from his temporary sleep (Jn 11:43-44)

Peter spoke words, and killed Sapphira (Acts 5:10)
Peter spoke words, and Tabitha/Dorcas revived from her temporary sleep (Acts 9:40)
Peter spoke words, and the bedridden, paralyzed Aeneas arose (Acts 9:34)

Paul spoke words, and temporarily-blinded Elymas (Acts 13:11)
Paul spoke words, and a cripple started walking for the first time (Acts 14:8)
Paul spoke words, and a demon of divination was cast out of a girl (Acts 16:16)

[DavidFord]

Is it possible sin ("missing the mark" as we know, in the Greek) is the first death? And thus physical death is the 2nd death.. thus believers are not hurt by the 2nd death

Maybe so.

History is full of unpleasant things

Which I wish hadn't happened-- especially the unpleasantness I theoretically could have stopped had I done things differently.  Alas, I can't change the past. But I can strive to learn from it, and work to stop (via e.g. better praying and actions), additional unpleasantness from occurring.

[marie glen]

Words can bring life, and words can kill.

:thumbsup: Amen!

History is full of unpleasant things

Which I wish hadn't happened-- especially the unpleasantness I theoretically could have stopped had I done things differently.  Alas, I can't change the past. But I can strive to learn from it, and work to stop (via e.g. better praying and actions), additional unpleasantness from occurring.

Amen.. and good/better use of words! ..And, in this world, I think smiles.. and sometimes humor.. bridge many gaps! :gsmile: