What do you all think punishment in the Bible refers to?
On earth, we deal with others, such as children and criminals, by punishing bad behavior and rewarding good. But this often has results that are unintended:
For example a child learns to lie or hide their misbehavior to avoid punishment. On the other side, sometimes people stop bad behavior for fear of punishment but they still desire to do bad...they don't actually stop because they have learned or had a change of heart, but for selfish reasons.
Or people can be in jail and punished, only to be released and fall back into old habits. Sometimes people actually act out more after being punished because the punishment made them feel so badly that they want to hurt others even more.
It seems to me that punishment doesn't "work" to change someone's heart and because of this, I wonder about the theory that people will be punished in the after life.
Paying for their sins with some sort of punishment seems to be an earthy idea, like eye for an eye, which was superseded by forgiveness and turning the other cheek. God's ways are higher than ours, and we desire retribution...
Personal experience (myself and others) tells me that it's more complex than just offend-punishment-reconciliation for the "unsaved."
I don't know what will bring about their change of heart but it seems more along the lines of "Saul why do u persecute me?" Than fiery judgment.
Thoughts?
I so totally agree! Lately I think i'm starting to wonder if most - if not all? - punishment (ultimately) is self inflicted? (Except consequences?) And if this is some sort of natural law. That the way we are built/designed, we WILL feel much remorse and 'gnashing of teeth' if you will, especially if we have been some horrible wicked abuser, oppressir and killer of others.. And 'burningshame' in ones own heart. But also, to consider, I think, is even the worst, most horrible offenders were 'allowed' by God's plan to 'descend' that low.. like God moves His hand aside.. that sin and self first is like an abyss and bottomless pit.. As in "how low can one go?".. I think one of the things our Heavenly Father is teaching us all is pthat even the tiniest grain of sin or wandering out of His perfect will, has in it the whole range of horror that is ever possible.
But because He has put all under or into disobedience (that He may have mercy on all) seems to me to support the idea that His work is corrective. (With a big hug at the end! Any good mother knows that! :gsmile: :thumbsup: ) A good parent of even the worst bully will try to correct and guide and teach, not merely punish, much less torment! :faint: "The Spirit will "convince" the world of sin". I think Revelation just kind of skips over the next ages. That the not yet turned (by God) rise and are simply cast/thrust into fiery purification doesn't sound logical to me. I think a lot of 'fiery judgment' is outcomes. If I've been wealthy, but mean and selfish.. and end my days utterly alone and bitter.. or the violent come to a violent end.. All food for though when I awake from my grave and sleep of death.. And also the national lessons and outcomes and then "the end" when we are about to annihilate all and the planet.. All good food for thought when learning to understand fully, good from evil. I guess that's what I lean toward thinking what punishment and torment is.
QuoteWhat do you all think punishment in the Bible refers to?
I have considered the Holy Spirit stays with us once we are awakened and aware always , and never leaves us .
Psalms 73 Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand. You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.In our weakness God is our strength , this to me ca only come by His Holy Spirit of grace upon us .
Just as David was told by the Lord in 2 Samuel 7 the punishment will be done by the LORD allowing the sons of men and rods of the sons of men to chasten with iniquity/ error is committed .. I do see this also as corrective punishment
13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity,
I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15
but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.
16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.'"
Jesus told them your sons will be your judges
Matt 12 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself.
How then can his kingdom stand?
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul,
by whom do your sons drive them out?
So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you....
This particular scripture puzzled me for many years until I realized that everyone is unjust judges when judging according to the flesh that was judged from the start as good as dead already /corruption , never considering the powers and principalities in the high places seating themselves as gods until you are awaked to the glory and presence of God and that substance of faith is given truth and grace to grow into as the inner man/spiritual being of the heart.
The Holy Spirit of truth is the only just judge of heaven and earth and below , Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and walks among mankind to this day , in the sense of scriptures testifying , as the least you have done unto one of these you have done it unto me ... The CHRIST in you the hope of glory , this special anointing of Gods Word and Spirit within you is a continual witness in the heavenly courts system . Loving God first and others as yourselves is walking the in the Spirit of Light and Life .
I have also considered over the course and though the experiences , one never really understands what the Spirit is saying without the experiences changing us and repenting or changing our minds from carnal thinking to spiritual thinking on many matters , and thinking past the moment we find ourselves being tested in unrighteous mammon / things of the world
and the be faithful in the smallest of matters , an example , like someone accidently giving you 20$ extra and you being honest give it back , instead of keeping it for yourself , because if they had short changed you a 20$ you might speak up and say somthing or you might just take the loss ...
The hearts motive proves faith or lack of faith , every time of what manner of spirit we are of .
GOD is the Father of spirits and corrects and purifies them all the time to make and mold them into a better use and witness to Gods glory .
Hebrews 12 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else,
then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
9 Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them.
Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?
10 Our fathers disciplined us for a short time as they thought best,
but God disciplines us for our good, so that we may share in His holiness....
Romans 5 3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us....
I hope the inner man of the heart is rejoicing over all the sufferings as my old man of sin hates it and dying to self is painful .
but both natures prove GODS POWER over this weakened flesh that is meant to die for the Holy Spirit is our strength to endure all things life and death are ours to experience , the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak .. learning to depend on the Holy Spirit more and more and less and less on what I thought I knew , trusted and believed in far to long .
Having this hope alive is amazing and exciting especially since Jesus is the resurrection and the Life and to promise that even if we die we will live and if we LIVE for Him now we will never die !! I find that a totally amazing TRUTH to cling too just for trusting in HIM to do these greater works of grace to us all . :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on May 20, 2018, 07:05:51 AM
I have considered the Holy Spirit stays with us once we are awakened and aware always , and never leaves us .
Psalms 73 Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand.
yes!
Woke up this morning and this come to me :2c:
The knowledge of GOD is our true blessings and reward OUR GREAT LIGHT , if we Love God we are blessed , but if we love the world and love money we are still in outer darkness and do not know anything about God
It was somthing Jesus said that really hit the nail on the head ..
About being faithful in a few things of the unjust riches or worldly things , that faithful and honest trying to do the right things matters to God and it is called obedience ..
Luke 16 8The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the sons of this age are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the sons of light. 9I tell you, use worldly wealth to make friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, they will welcome you into eternal dwellings.
So when you have given all that you have ,like the widows mite , God will come and receive you unto the heavenly teachings and secret things of His most holies . :2c:
10Whoever is faithful with very little will also be faithful with much,
and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. :eek: even the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel by nature . look at the world wars and how they were despised by the kings of the earth .
11If, then, you have not been faithful with worldly wealth, who will entrust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been faithful with the belongings of another, who will give you belongings of your own? 13No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
WOW !! true identity the inner spiritual son of God being connected to all things pertaining to Himself and KNOWING GODS LOVE !! complete Love casts our fear , fear of the unknown God that so many feared death because they did not know if they are doomed forever or not ..
I think the fear of punishment is a punishment of itself !! :sigh: the outer darkness /ignorance of the ways of God , so many still see God as a monster ready to kill and punish all but a handful for all eternity :CryBaby: and being cast out at any time for failure to comply to the rules that many teachers that heap up heavy loads impossible to bear upon you while they sit in Moses seat judging everyone and everything that is not to their liking , it truly is the ministration of death , that we all must come to the end of ourselves and Let God now when all our strength is gone , to lift us up out of the pit of despair :2c:
when we are done serving the world , we can now serve the Lord Jesus Christ in the Spirit of truth and grace being so emptied ,like dead to the world , we need the Holy Spirit to fill us up with Light and Life again , that experience was Sauls / Pauls on the road to Damascus ...
That is given the true riches of truth and grace to grow up into!! :2c: becoming strong and faithful and being able to boldly speak about God without the fear of wrong doing such as blaspheming His Holy Name because the Holy Spirit will bear witness to your Spirit that you are in the faith and love of God .. . :HeartThrob:
Amen Rosie! ..as I was reading your posts and verses, I could clearly see the vast difference between "life" -- God, really.. His radiance, as life.. and the stark contrast of the shadow the darkness which is the pre-redemption state of life.. Not totally devoid or empty of God/life.. but the shadow of the valley.. (for I suppose to be totally devoid of life would be that total annihilation.. which there are times I think some could choose.. or actually all
could choose.. But He is
All-Powerful God.. and who really, when it comes right down to it, can choose to not live? :dontknow: It doesn't matter.. Jesus said He will draw all to Him! All in the heavens and in the earth.. Deuteronomy:
I have set before thee this day, life or death. :dsunny: :banana: :HeartThrob: ..but "He/she who believes in Me will never die aiōna"
Quote from: rosered on May 20, 2018, 07:05:51 AM
I have considered the Holy Spirit stays with us once we are awakened and aware always , and never leaves us .
Psalms 73 Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand.
:HeartThrob: :cloud9:
For me ..... without the Spirit of the word, it will remain as what we are taught it is.
I believe that the nature of man (the flesh) has misunderstood what God meant when He said "an eye for an eye", the nature of man is: let the punishment fit the crime
For me, it is an exchange ..... the exchanging of one eye for another eye, in other words; the exchanging of how we view (see) something; do we see through an eye of law OR do we see through an eye of grace
If we view it as punishment; a result/an act of God through law --- than the love of God stays hidden
BUT
if we view it as correction; a result/an act of God through grace --- than the love of God is revealed
Correction is seeing that God loves us enough and wants to "correct" us (Love revealed/ correction through Grace)
Punishment is NOT seeing that God loves us enough and wants to "punish" us (Love hidden/punishment through Law)
For me ..... it is also seeing the Law of God through the eye of Grace
When I read the words "You shall have no other Gods before me",
it is:
a law that God obeys bringing about His work in us through Grace by His Spirit
NOT
a law that we obey bringing about our work in us through Law by our flesh(ly) spirit
Of which Spirit/spirit are we?
A spirit of punishment
OR
A Spirit of correction
OR
A mixture of both
My :2c:
Discipline is a word that can be seen as punishment or training, I see it as training
"Training through Grace"
NOT
"Punishment through Law"
Quote from: GodIsLove on May 20, 2018, 04:23:06 AM
It seems to me that punishment doesn't "work" to change someone's heart and because of this, I wonder about the theory that people will be punished in the after life.
From my past I remember copping punishment- that corrected some things but not all. Even when explained to the point of knowing why the punishment had to happen.
Also was aware of "getting away" with some things which I tried to convince myself was part of my character.
Amazing how I thought I was doing MY best and growing in Christ. Dedicated to more prayer and study so as to personally grow.
That was for many years.
I NEVER felt that "peace" which goes beyond understanding UNTIL the recognition that CHRIST literally covers everything. Just like Paul states,
" It is no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me."
Knowing that He took all the punishment which I deserve and NAILED that to the cross, so that punishment cannot be removed, has totally corrected my values and hence my behaviour.
1 Tim 1;9-11 " We know that the law is not valid for a righteous person but for the
lawless and rebellious,
irreligious and sinners,
unholy and profane,
those who beat their fathers and mothers,
murderers, fornicators,
men who practice homosexuality,
kidnappers, liars, perjurers,
and ANYTHING ELSE that is contrary to healthy teaching in conformity to the Gospel of the blessed God
with which I was entrusted."
I.M.O these highlight the acts which are punished, or deserve punishment, but does not change the behaviour patterns.
However, all necessary as part of learning so as to fully appreciate why the sacrifice of Christ and what that covers for ALL.
So judgment day will highlight all this information as part of the learning process.
:thumbsup: Amen!
And especially as Rose wrote, all only able to be done, in us, via God’s Holy Spirit..
Also interesting I think, concerning this topic..
- ”For if we were judging ourselves, we would not come under judgment.” 1 Cor. 11:31
And there’s this.. Jesus said, which seems to equate “Judgment” with “regeneration”...?
Mt.19:28 -
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. - NIV
Young’s Literal -
And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit -- ye also -- upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;
This was all I was going to post, but then I fell into study mode, which I’ll leave here, not erase.. :doh:
:Chinscratch: of course that doesn’t mean a lot if (1) rev is only spiritual, or (2) if rev has been (fully) fulfilled..?
? Rev.19 worldly conclusion & return to Earth of Jesus;Rev.20 resurrection of the righteous in Jesus (RR?), some judging & the millennium/1000yrs; “after the 1000yrs, the resurrection of all not yet saved & Judgment ‘Day’ (Lev.23:27-32?), a lake of fire; Rev.21 the “all in all” (event?) ALL is/are? made new, new heavens & Earth, But “the sea is no more” (singular?)
..been pondering/studying lof/2nd death - (world ‘beast’ and false prophet/teacher/teaching? are cast into the lof.. at Jesus’ return; at end of millennium, fire descends and consumes rebels surrounding Jerusalem; then at the all in all event?
? 2 Peter’s “the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements will dissolve with burning heat.. but we look for a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness shall dwell” (for all :cloud9: ) The “day of the LORD” being the whole second advent of Jesus, But begins with the trumpets of rev? (ch7,fiery event begins it?) and “day of the LORD” is what comes as a thief in the night.. the return of Jesus pinpointed by rev.16:14,15,16. [Dan.12:12?]
Quote from: GodIsLove on May 20, 2018, 04:23:06 AM
What do you all think punishment in the Bible refers to?
In the words of the apostle Paul, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1st Corinthians 13:11
It is a child who thinks they are being punished because they have not yet learned that their father is trying to correct them in the things they do and say --- and when they get older and do not yet understand this principle, then they too, punish their children rather than correct out of love
my :2c:
Amen! Even the worst of the worst, I think tecweeping, gnashing teeth and outer / inner? darkness all occurs because of the conscience and psyche.. And Jesus crucified not to satisfy some sort of 'wrath' of God or even because of His great sense of justice.. but I think because it's a strong enough image tonpierce every psyche with the realization of (1) how much God loves, and (2) enabled to be able to forgive their self.
:Peace2: :2c:
Here’s a thought I’ve wondered before. And it may sound a little crazy!
Is it possible sin (“missing the mark” as we know, in the Greek) is the first death? And thus physical death is the 2nd death.. thus believers are not hurt by the 2nd death.. And earthly fiery judgments (results and consequences, actually?) - Especially man’s thermo nuclear + abilities they have going on.. wouldn’t all that be a lake of fire.. (& tares gathered to Armageddon?) I know ppl don’t like to think about such.. but, well, I don’t think that matters and it, Bible prophecy, doesn’t worry me in any way (especially as the gathering is to H’armageddon and I have no intention of ever going there, even should I live so long). I don’t know why it throws folks.. History is full of unpleasant things.. But all shall SO totally rejoice! And be fully convinced and fullybagree with our Father as to what is good and what is evil.
...there’s ‘the end’ when Jesus comes with fire and angels.. There’s the fire that falls upon those at the conclusion of the millennial age, who surround the city (Jerusalem) with evil intent/war! A lof?
Then what Peter wrote about the elements melting with a fervent heat, and the works of earth dissolved.. nevertheless (he wrote) we await a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness shall dwell” - the “all in all” event? But also a lof..? Radical? It’s not easy to change long held patterns of thinking about something..(?)
:Peace2:
P.S - but by time end of Judgment ‘Day’ all will have been drawn to Jesus and enrolled in the book of life? All the ends of Earth having remembered and turned to the LORD, and all families of the nations worshipping..” Jn.12:32; Ps.22:27. Thus no humans in rev. 20 lof.. the mention of outside in ch.22 is outside the rev. vision telling.. :smile: And the ones cast there “alive” at jesus’ return are institutions of man active at the time of His return(!?) Rev.19 (verse 20?)
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The whole of Isaiah 53 applies here, but just to focus on this verse.
Num 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
It is interesting to note, the Lord told Moses to speak to the rock for water to flow. Instead, he beat the rock (twice), and water flowed out of it abundantly. I think there is a parable in that. "Out of his belly shall flow out living waters"
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
To put simply, Christ was beaten, much water came from Him, and from that water we are healed, and fulfilled.
Amen! :thumbsup: And baptizes us.. and fills us.. His side was pierced and out came water and blood..
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 01, 2018, 04:59:54 AMthe Lord told Moses to speak to the rock for water to flow. Instead, he beat the rock (twice), and water flowed out of it
Words can bring life, and words can kill.
Moses was to have spoken words to a rock, whereupon it would have gushed water (instead of obeying God's instructions to speak to the rock, Moses disobeyed and hit it with his staff) (Num 20:7-12)
Elijah spoke words, and incinerated 102 men (2 Kings 1:9-12)
Elisha spoke words, and 2 bears mauled 42 youth (2 Kings 2:23-24)
Jesus spoke words, and killed a fig tree (Mt 21:18-22)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a centurian's suffering, paralyzed servant (Mt 8:5-13)
Jesus spoke words, and stopped a storm (Mt 8:23-27)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a Canaanite's demonized daughter (Mt 15:21-28)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a demonized boy (Mt 17:14-18)
Jesus spoke words, and money for paying taxes showed up in a caught fish's mouth (Mt 17:27)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a demonized man (Mk 1:23-26)
Jesus spoke words, and healed a paralyzed man (Lk 5:24-25, Mt 9:6-7, Mk 2:10-12)
Jesus spoke words, and a blind man saw (Lk 18:41-43)
Jesus spoke words, and Lazarus revived from his temporary sleep (Jn 11:43-44)
Peter spoke words, and killed Sapphira (Acts 5:10)
Peter spoke words, and Tabitha/Dorcas revived from her temporary sleep (Acts 9:40)
Peter spoke words, and the bedridden, paralyzed Aeneas arose (Acts 9:34)
Paul spoke words, and temporarily-blinded Elymas (Acts 13:11)
Paul spoke words, and a cripple started walking for the first time (Acts 14:8)
Paul spoke words, and a demon of divination was cast out of a girl (Acts 16:16)
Quote from: marie glen on December 01, 2018, 04:49:10 AMIs it possible sin ("missing the mark" as we know, in the Greek) is the first death? And thus physical death is the 2nd death.. thus believers are not hurt by the 2nd death
Maybe so.
QuoteHistory is full of unpleasant things
Which I wish hadn't happened-- especially the unpleasantness I theoretically could have stopped had I done things differently. Alas, I can't change the past. But I can strive to learn from it, and work to stop (via e.g. better praying and actions), additional unpleasantness from occurring.
Quote from: DavidFord on December 11, 2018, 12:54:24 AM
Words can bring life, and words can kill.
:thumbsup: Amen!
Quote from: DavidFord on December 11, 2018, 01:02:38 AM
QuoteHistory is full of unpleasant things
Which I wish hadn't happened-- especially the unpleasantness I theoretically could have stopped had I done things differently. Alas, I can't change the past. But I can strive to learn from it, and work to stop (via e.g. better praying and actions), additional unpleasantness from occurring.
Amen.. and good/better use of words! ..And, in this world, I think smiles.. and sometimes humor.. bridge many gaps! :gsmile: