names enrolled

[MusicLover123]

You called someone stupid in another thead, now absurd.

:sigh:

Well, I probably did sound like I called that person stupid, but this time I was calling the idea absurd, not you. I apologize again, a since you seem hurt.

Just a suggestion, unless you feel led otherwise, could you please tell me in private first?

Matthew 18
15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 "Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
20For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

[marie glen]

A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

Um.. I was taking into consideration other verses..

You seem to have got what I was saying, the symbols which people take against was just one example. The point is that the narrative of history is so ingrained people might want to go back in time and kill Hitler before he could appoint himself furor (a dark reading but that's the point). This might seem like a good idea and save many lives, but I can guarantee many people who have now been born won't be born and different people will be, history will unfold completely differently than as it is a a ot of things we take for granted may not happen. This is the world we have, changing major details will change a lot of other details and in killing Hitler you may even kill yourself. Again, the wheat and the tares.

Hmmm, I have no idea what this is from.. not a conversation with me..

Before trial?

"for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ; for it hath been written, 'I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;' so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God;" (Romans 14:9-12)

What people don't get is that God knows all, He doesn't need to trap us into explaining ourselves to Him, He knows if we're yet worth saving of not. The reckoning is called 'life' we're giving it, right now. Don't be deceived, beware!

What I think is that at "the Judgment" - why would God waste such a thoroughly perfect opportunity to doubly pound home His message? That He is life.

Wander away? Not a smart move..

Why waste all that history? all the things people suffered.. Aren't we going to review all that? It would be a shame if it's just forfotten and written up as not important.. Somehow Et got into us the idea of total one on one judgment and review of history.. well, I think sure that happens and will happen too.. "Have the people sit in groups of 50 or a 100, Jesus said" and at Mt Sinai, the whole nation was addressed... together.

Away from Him.. can only be apocalypse.. individual and, or collective. That seems extremely visible to me. Sorry.. I'm not about to change my mind.. Because it's so plain, obvious and visible to me.. Sometimes, CST, I think you are just kind of "contrary". Now I mean that in a friendly way!

Doesn't another parable speak of the difference between things built on The Rock/Truth and things built on sand?

Literal Bible, to me, fits.. the pieces fit. If not literal, but myth or only about what goes on in the psyche.. individual or collective.. I think it's bigger than that.. I guess I feel you can have the metaphor alongside or to complement the literal. But to me it doesn't work vice versa, that is the myth or metaphor without literal. If it can be read as literal, I read it as literal. And considering the attributes of God that's a pretty wide.. bunch of possibility..

Usually, I try to agree with folks, and maybe add something.. otherwise it can seem confrontational and turns people away. So I hope I haven't done that in any way.. I find no difficulty in exchanging ideas and views about God's Word.. And no one has to agree with me.. usually i won't continue in a thread this long.. But frankly I'm a bit shocked with your beliefs.. And I suppose you are with mine.. :Peace2: :girlheart:

[marie glen]

A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

I had a thought.. to clarify..


In the explanation of the parable Jesus says "38 The field is the world. The good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. But the tares are the sons of the wicked one." Mt 13

And Paul says we were all children of the wicked one. Until born again of the seed of Christ..

So we were all tares (noxious weeds. :laughing7: ) But now as believers, we are wheat.

What is He is saying? "And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. But the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age. And the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age." .....But gather the wheat into my barn

Which 70 a.d. (I think) was a microcosm and local version of.. :2c:

"sons of the kingdom" - sons is G5207 --
huios: a son
Definition: a son
Usage: a son, descendent

"41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"


"29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mt 24

....gather the wheat into My barn.. and gather the tares where? Clue: Definitely is not hell nor any after life torment - that's the point I'm trying to make -  for this is at the end of this age, 70a.d. and later, His return, I have to think considering all verses - not at end of Judgment Day which does not occur until 1000 years after Jesus' return. "The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are ended." (Rev. 20:5)
:Peace2:

[CST]

A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

Um.. I was taking into consideration other verses..

You seem to have got what I was saying, the symbols which people take against was just one example. The point is that the narrative of history is so ingrained people might want to go back in time and kill Hitler before he could appoint himself furor (a dark reading but that's the point). This might seem like a good idea and save many lives, but I can guarantee many people who have now been born won't be born and different people will be, history will unfold completely differently than as it is a a ot of things we take for granted may not happen. This is the world we have, changing major details will change a lot of other details and in killing Hitler you may even kill yourself. Again, the wheat and the tares.

Hmmm, I have no idea what this is from.. not a conversation with me..

Before trial?

"for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ; for it hath been written, 'I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;' so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God;" (Romans 14:9-12)

What people don't get is that God knows all, He doesn't need to trap us into explaining ourselves to Him, He knows if we're yet worth saving of not. The reckoning is called 'life' we're giving it, right now. Don't be deceived, beware!

What I think is that at "the Judgment" - why would God waste such a thoroughly perfect opportunity to doubly pound home His message? That He is life.

Wander away? Not a smart move..

Why waste all that history? all the things people suffered.. Aren't we going to review all that? It would be a shame if it's just forfotten and written up as not important.. Somehow Et got into us the idea of total one on one judgment and review of history.. well, I think sure that happens and will happen too.. "Have the people sit in groups of 50 or a 100, Jesus said" and at Mt Sinai, the whole nation was addressed... together.

Away from Him.. can only be apocalypse.. individual and, or collective. That seems extremely visible to me. Sorry.. I'm not about to change my mind.. Because it's so plain, obvious and visible to me.. Sometimes, CST, I think you are just kind of "contrary". Now I mean that in a friendly way!

Doesn't another parable speak of the difference between things built on The Rock/Truth and things built on sand?

Literal Bible, to me, fits.. the pieces fit. If not literal, but myth or only about what goes on in the psyche.. individual or collective.. I think it's bigger than that.. I guess I feel you can have the metaphor alongside or to complement the literal. But to me it doesn't work vice versa, that is the myth or metaphor without literal. If it can be read as literal, I read it as literal. And considering the attributes of God that's a pretty wide.. bunch of possibility..

Usually, I try to agree with folks, and maybe add something.. otherwise it can seem confrontational and turns people away. So I hope I haven't done that in any way.. I find no difficulty in exchanging ideas and views about God's Word.. And no one has to agree with me.. usually i won't continue in a thread this long.. But frankly I'm a bit shocked with your beliefs.. And I suppose you are with mine.. :Peace2: :girlheart:

Other verses? Always worth doing but also highly complicated, it can be hard to know which verses apply especially as you might be inclined to apply the verses that support the conclusion you have already come to about the Bible, the Bible is challenging like that.

You said on October 29, 2018, 11:21:23 PM in the section beginning, 'This is interesting...' things that suggested you understood my point. Otherwise I have no idea what you said so you, quite understandably, don't understand me now.

You're already on record as talking about the big day of review which is hardly likely to be a literal 24 hour day. God couldn't get through all the significant events Adam's life in one day without significant editing. If God asks him (remembering I think this story is a metaphor but this works for the point) why he ate from the Tree of Knowledge again will he give the same answer he did before. What other sins will he struggle to defend when God asks about them? Does it include all his private thoughts that other people don't know about but will be hurt if they find out, until it's their turn to go through the same process? Logically it just sounds like a very long piece of grandstanding on the part of God which can serve only to utterly embarrass everyone else. I'm not sure anyone could survive in any way we could just end up falling out.

And, yes, Glenda, I also suspect I may be 'contrary' or I may be just losing the thread, however Jesus was also contrary and was put to death for being contrary. I'm not entirely convinced I'm contrary like Jesus, that seems unlikely.

That said there are many good things in what you are saying and a parable does speak of things being built on The Rock/Truth but, of course, you have to immediately remember that 'Rock' is not literal and in fact it refers to Jesus. Jesus is that rock.

How many people will we be reviewed in front of? The Bible to me implies everyone which is why the idea bothers me, exposing wicked people in front of equally wicked people seems pointless. I am definitely opposed too years of history being sted. I'm just not sure it's morally right that that is best expressed in gathering everyone together and giving them an extended lecture on how bad everything was and how much responsibility they all bear for the fact.

I may currently not be expressing by beliefs at their best, I'm trying to make cases in a lot of threads simultaneously at the same time with limited time. Your beliefs aren't that surprising, they seem like a good expression of classical Christian positions. The most shocking thing about them is that they're UR which Isn't all that shocking here.

[marie glen]

You're already on record as talking about the big day of review which is hardly likely to be a literal 24 hour day. God couldn't get through all the significant events Adam's life in one day without significant editing. If God asks him (remembering I think this story is a metaphor but this works for the point) why he ate from the Tree of Knowledge again will he give the same answer he did before. What other sins will he struggle to defend when God asks about them? Does it include all his private thoughts that other people don't know about but will be hurt if they find out, until it's their turn to go through the same process? Logically it just sounds like a very long piece of grandstanding on the part of God which can serve only to utterly embarrass everyone else. I'm not sure anyone could survive in any way we could just end up falling out.

Oh.. you're thinking of individual judgment - i believe that occurs in the heart. I'm talking about a collective day like Israel's Day of Atonement of Lev 23.. --> A collective review of history.

And, yes, Glenda, I also suspect I may be 'contrary' or I may be just losing the thread, however Jesus was also contrary and was put to death for being contrary. I'm not entirely convinced I'm contrary like Jesus, that seems unlikely.

That said there are many good things in what you are saying and a parable does speak of things being built on The Rock/Truth but, of course, you have to immediately remember that 'Rock' is not literal and in fact it refers to Jesus. Jesus is that rock.

And Truth.. life must (ultimately) be built on truth I believe.

I may currently not be expressing by beliefs at their best, I'm trying to make cases in a lot of threads simultaneously at the same time with limited time.

   :gsmile: me too.

Your beliefs aren't that surprising, they seem like a good expression of classical Christian positions. The most shocking thing about them is that they're UR which Isn't all that shocking here.

Really? Judgement Day as a great day of atonement, reconciliation and jubilee? Of course"asleep in the grave" (for example) is what I see on black and white movies :smile: ..but they kind of believe the going to heaven bit..
:Peace2: later!

[CST]

You're already on record as talking about the big day of review which is hardly likely to be a literal 24 hour day. God couldn't get through all the significant events Adam's life in one day without significant editing. If God asks him (remembering I think this story is a metaphor but this works for the point) why he ate from the Tree of Knowledge again will he give the same answer he did before. What other sins will he struggle to defend when God asks about them? Does it include all his private thoughts that other people don't know about but will be hurt if they find out, until it's their turn to go through the same process? Logically it just sounds like a very long piece of grandstanding on the part of God which can serve only to utterly embarrass everyone else. I'm not sure anyone could survive in any way we could just end up falling out.

Oh.. you're thinking of individual judgment - i believe that occurs in the heart. I'm talking about a collective day like Israel's Day of Atonement of Lev 23.. --> A collective review of history.

And, yes, Glenda, I also suspect I may be 'contrary' or I may be just losing the thread, however Jesus was also contrary and was put to death for being contrary. I'm not entirely convinced I'm contrary like Jesus, that seems unlikely.

That said there are many good things in what you are saying and a parable does speak of things being built on The Rock/Truth but, of course, you have to immediately remember that 'Rock' is not literal and in fact it refers to Jesus. Jesus is that rock.

And Truth.. life must (ultimately) be built on truth I believe.

I may currently not be expressing by beliefs at their best, I'm trying to make cases in a lot of threads simultaneously at the same time with limited time.

   :gsmile: me too.

Your beliefs aren't that surprising, they seem like a good expression of classical Christian positions. The most shocking thing about them is that they're UR which Isn't all that shocking here.

Really? Judgement Day as a great day of atonement, reconciliation and jubilee? Of course"asleep in the grave" (for example) is what I see on black and white movies :smile: ..but they kind of believe the going to heaven bit..
:Peace2: later!

Individual judgement sounds more fitting when thinking about individual salvation, but I lost the vast majority of my thought processes in all these discussions now.

'Life must be built on Truth, ' quite so I very much believe so and expect it to be why I am contrary, much of the world in which we live is not built on Truth ao when I hear important falsehoods being banded around as the Truth I often feel that it is very important to challenge them strongly and swiftly. Of course I may be incorrect and whether I am or not makes me 'contrary' to the general line of thought I'm challenging and etiquette that is often set up to protect it by saying 'You can't challenge that, we've all decided it's true and that's that.'

Hooray, we are also in agreement.

For a UR proponent that is reasonable, and not surprising as things can't end up otherwise. But, yes, sometimes it's surprising in my head because a lot of my objections to the idea are due to a view I formed when there was still an ET idea in my head.

I know there's some sort of judgement but the end of Revelation is a bit vague, books opened people judged according to their works but only saved if their name is in the book of life. Are those works good and bad or are they just bad? People have different views on this.

[jugghead]

I myself would say they are good works, no bad, for love keeps no record of wrongs  :2c:

[marie glen]

I know there's some sort of judgement but the end of Revelation is a bit vague, books opened people judged according to their works but only saved if their name is in the book of life. Are those works good and bad or are they just bad? People have different views on this.

Well, so you have an idea of what it is I often strongly try to communicate, believing it to be important, u.r. supporting truth..

Jesus' return -
His millennium rule of 1000 years and after which -
the resurrection of all those not yet saved - begins "Day of Atonement"(?)
                           lasting roughly 500 years^{due to the pattern of days between the fall holy days of Lev 23}

hence, upon 'Day' of Atonement-(The Judgment) those not yet saved, will experience what we have experienced / i.e. they will repent and be reconciled..

All upon a back drop of realizing and reviewing all of history as the documentary of the wrong way.. That's what I see in that part of Revelation. And I know, I'm right about the other parts of Rev - my only ? being about the 2 witnesses..

Besides, His first advent did fulfill perfectly the Spring Holy Days.. I'd love to see the gospel move along from the judgment being thought a simply dumping folks enmasse into lof to a logical part of God's redeeming (and educating/'programming'?) plan..

It's easy.. lof I believe occurs just as it does now, for us. "Our God is a consuming fire".. If God chooses who believes, and "hardens whom He will" why would their redemption experience be any more frightening than any of ours?  Despots, etc, may gnash their teeth a little more than others.. but Jesus will draw all.. And we know that cannot happen this side of life, as not all are even alive..

If I believed in the state of death for the unsaved who have died, as a state of living, I'd believe they become converted while dead. Because that would be the most logical thing. And by time "the judgment" they would surely "believe" and thus are enrolled in the book of life..

This way of thinking dawned on me one day during prayerful study.. the idea came to mind of what would I think if I were not saved, but then I experienced rising from my grave, and then I witness a review of history at "the judgment".. First thing I thought was, um.. after all that, who's not going to "believe"? And isn't that what it takes to have one's name written in the Book of Life?

After reading the bible for 40 years, including the book of revelation, etc.. And having prayed always for understanding.. when this dawned upon me - how it would be to experience rising after death, still in my sins, so still mortal.. or again mortal :laughing7:

Thinking of it from that point of view and knowing what the scriptures say about the millennium, both in Rev and in the prophets and also Jesus' words.. the thoughts easily settled down into this pattern - of the Fall Holy Days and Rev 20 & 21.

Both being from Trumpets --> -- > to Tabernacles.  (Rev 21:3 KJ or YLT)

"books opened".. is symbol and metaphor, for judgment, discernment, review? :gsmile:

[Dandelion]

I am going to guess that all our names are written in the Book of Life.
God is the Alpha and the Omega. He knew all that would happen, before the world began.
And, if we on the Tentmaker are correct, He knows that we are all going to go home, with Him, for eternity.

Whether we are the first fruits or the last........

Amen.

D.

[CST]

I myself would say they are good works, no bad, for love keeps no record of wrongs  :2c:

You'd think and yet why would their names not be found in the Book of Life. A lot of people thing they're only bad works because a. all good works are wrought in Jesus and b. it says that the dead are judged according to their works and it isn't thought the 'dead' would have a good deed to their name.

I know there's some sort of judgement but the end of Revelation is a bit vague, books opened people judged according to their works but only saved if their name is in the book of life. Are those works good and bad or are they just bad? People have different views on this.

Well, so you have an idea of what it is I often strongly try to communicate, believing it to be important, u.r. supporting truth..

Jesus' return -
His millennium rule of 1000 years and after which -
the resurrection of all those not yet saved - begins "Day of Atonement"(?)
                           lasting roughly 500 years^{due to the pattern of days between the fall holy days of Lev 23}

hence, upon 'Day' of Atonement-(The Judgment) those not yet saved, will experience what we have experienced / i.e. they will repent and be reconciled..

All upon a back drop of realizing and reviewing all of history as the documentary of the wrong way.. That's what I see in that part of Revelation. And I know, I'm right about the other parts of Rev - my only ? being about the 2 witnesses..

Besides, His first advent did fulfill perfectly the Spring Holy Days.. I'd love to see the gospel move along from the judgment being thought a simply dumping folks enmasse into lof to a logical part of God's redeeming (and educating/'programming'?) plan..

It's easy.. lof I believe occurs just as it does now, for us. "Our God is a consuming fire".. If God chooses who believes, and "hardens whom He will" why would their redemption experience be any more frightening than any of ours?  Despots, etc, may gnash their teeth a little more than others.. but Jesus will draw all.. And we know that cannot happen this side of life, as not all are even alive..

If I believed in the state of death for the unsaved who have died, as a state of living, I'd believe they become converted while dead. Because that would be the most logical thing. And by time "the judgment" they would surely "believe" and thus are enrolled in the book of life..

This way of thinking dawned on me one day during prayerful study.. the idea came to mind of what would I think if I were not saved, but then I experienced rising from my grave, and then I witness a review of history at "the judgment".. First thing I thought was, um.. after all that, who's not going to "believe"? And isn't that what it takes to have one's name written in the Book of Life?

After reading the bible for 40 years, including the book of revelation, etc.. And having prayed always for understanding.. when this dawned upon me - how it would be to experience rising after death, still in my sins, so still mortal.. or again mortal :laughing7:

Thinking of it from that point of view and knowing what the scriptures say about the millennium, both in Rev and in the prophets and also Jesus' words.. the thoughts easily settled down into this pattern - of the Fall Holy Days and Rev 20 & 21.

Both being from Trumpets --> -- > to Tabernacles.  (Rev 21:3 KJ or YLT)

"books opened".. is symbol and metaphor, for judgment, discernment, review? :gsmile:

Essentially, but I struggle with the concept of The Last Judgement. The last Judgement is an ET idea, it is the idea that God can gather everyone together on one day and then make a final and irrevocable decision about their fate. People who go the Hell, go to Hell to forever because the decision is final and that is where they belong, God doesn't make it lightly. I don't believe that I don't think judgement works that way. The Bible does suggest God has set apart a time to review His creation on mass but I don't believe it suggests that's not a revisable decision, that there won't be other judgements afterwards the Bible also suggests there will be, this makes it very hard to speculate about what the great judgement will actually look like or what its scope will be.

You ask who is not going to believe, but what do you thinking 'believing' means? What do you think 'faith' means? Modern militant materialists think it is the very essence of folly. That you choose to believe something stupid when there is no evidence to support it at all. They believe that it is stupid to believe God exists when there is no evidence He does, this position, to them, kills off the concept of faith.

They're wrong, however, it isn't and it doesn't. God existence isn't the point here it's His promises that are the point, Adam and Even didn't fall because they didn't believe God existed, they fell because they didn't believe what God told them. That's the story. Who's not going to believe? If your talking about the existence of God nobody, He's right in front of us, but faith is fidelity. It's about believing what God tells us about Himself and responding accordingly, and people have a lot of trouble with that. It's in our nature.

I am going to guess that all our names are written in the Book of Life.
God is the Alpha and the Omega. He knew all that would happen, before the world began.
And, if we on the Tentmaker are correct, He knows that we are all going to go home, with Him, for eternity.

Whether we are the first fruits or the last........

Amen.

D.

On the one hand it sounds reasonable that everyone's name will be enrolled yet at the same time it doesn't sound logical. Why would God suggest that some names wouldn't be found if in fact all would be. I have various answer to this but I not one hundred percent satisfied with any of them.

What bothers me the most is that the Book of Life, according to the Revelation, appears to be the book bound with the seven seals. But that's a weird symbol, it implies that the content of the book is immutable, no names can be added or removed, until the Crucifixion. I'm not quite sure what that means but it's a strange sort of metaphor. The seals seem to be their so other the lamb that was slain is worthy of open the Book of Life and read its contents. Technically, of course, those seals aren't going to stop God getting to His book whenever, if He wants to. But the idea of Him doing so seems to undermine the symbolism.

[eaglesway]

I agree that it is a pretty big "assumption" that the scripture would indicate that some names would be "not found" in the book of life- if in fact they would all be in there.

Too big an assumption against an obvious statement of scripture  to ask a discerning, reasonable theological adversary to accept IMO.

The problem some people have with that is that even as universalists they still seem to fear eternal torment- as if having your name blotted out of the book of life would mean that person would be eternally tormented. what it says is that they would be cast into the lake of fire.

What is the lake of fire?

The place where every hidden thing will be brought to light? An environment where the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed? A place where the adversaries will stand before the one whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun?

So I believe that aionon fire(mt 25) and the lake of fire(rev 21) and fire and brimstone(rev 14) are metaphors for an experience where adversaries will be dealt with by "the sword of His mouth"- the word of God dividing asunder soul and spirit and making mani9fest the thoughts and intentions of the heart(Heb 4:12).

An experience neither comfortable nor eternal, but one from which every adversary emerge, "you will not escape until you have paid the last penny"...."many stripes few stripes",... repentant and reconciled.

I believe in the salvation of all because the scriptures testify to it. Therefore, I also believe in the chastisement of the wicked, because the scriptures testify to it. But mercy triumphs over judgement, and all God's judgments work toward the instruction and redemption of the wayward soul.