those in Sheol getting what they dished out to others?

[marie glen]

I'd say, our main focus should be on Jesus (if one thought _only_ about Jesus, one wouldn't be able to think about e.g. which car to buy, shirt to wear, etc. Of course, one could consult Jesus when making those decisions)

Psalm 23
1The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Matthew 6
8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
25 Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?
26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?

Phillipians 4
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
CLV has it "don't worry about anything."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:

Mark 4
19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

We eventually get to this point through an increase of faith. This takes A LOT of faith, and I'm not even at this point yet.

....you aren't alone brother... :mshock:

It means literally not worrying about anything, even your needs. Trusting Him for everything, that He shall supply it for you as a father supplies his own children their needs, and the children trusting their father that they will be provided for.

  :cloud9: the joy.. the resting.. won't it be wonderful.. :Peace2:

[marie glen]

I was thinking about  1 Tim. 4:1 - But the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/4-1.htm
..The phrase "teaching of demons"

There's not really a word for "of" or "about" in it..
     It's didaskalia: instruction, teaching (G1319)

   and, daimonion: an evil-spirit, demon; a heathen deity ...[1140 /daimónion ("demon"), the diminutive form of 1142 /daímōn ("demon"), conveys how utterly powerless demons (fallen angels) are against Christ (His plan). :thumbsup:


And,  about "azazel", Sister Sheila talks about it, called the "scapegoat" -
  Leviticus 16:8,10 - And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Azazel. ...But the goat chosen by lot to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to make purification by sending it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/16-10.htm
    (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/16-8.htm)

azazel: entire removal (H5799) - I found this very interesting.. that the scapegoat is sent away into the wilderness (outer) and the word means "entire removal"

Fall Holy Day, Day of Atonement (DOA)
6 "Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord's lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.. the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. (typifying our Lord's crucifixion) 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. ..29 "This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.
:Chinscratch: my own thoughts, speculations, Azazel.. scapegoat.. is that what the adversary is? How gracious.. engineering (waiting) for the fall of a powerful/radiant one - believers will be radiant in the age(s) to come - and the fall of all mankind reckoned unto that one.. one stronger than Adam/earthly (now mortal anyway, so way weaker) - not only speeds things along - to the inevitable crash and apocalypse.. because the life/world/empires are not built on the Rock, but on sand/untruth.. not only the adversary (&co) speed things along (greatly) but in a double way (the 2 goats on DOA) declaring all (ultimately) innocent..(?) [on DOA]?

[CST]

So you think "they believed in something that the word 'demons' represents," and you think demons don't exist, so therefore Jesus was deceived about demons, in your estimation.  What are some other things you think Jesus was deceived about, besides demons?

Deceived is generally a strong word used carefully it doesn't mean much, used frequently it sounds more problematic. Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth and not in evolution of life, geology and geography. He believed that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, I share this belief actually. But I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect but felt it would be distracting and less than constructive to correct the wider populace in these belief. Or the Father did which is why He continued to withhold that particular information from His Son once He had 'emptied Himself'.

"Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth"
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth"?

"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"
'Evolution' has numerous definitions.  Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
Do you think Jesus was involved in the creation of:  matter-energy?  biology?

"I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect"
Do you think Jesus believed things that Jesus believed "were incorrect"?

I probably shouldn't really use the word 'myth' is has baggage I don't really want to bring in, however it's also simple for shorthand conversation.

Evolution may have many definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period. According to that God just built everything and assembled it in situ.

No, Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect, but He would know that other members of society believed them and may employ them for use as lessons if they served the term, unless there is a more major issue of honesty here which i don't yet see the ramifications off. But this seems difficult to believe but it would seem to require God to tell us everything and withhold nothing lest He be accused of deceit by omission and that doesn't seem to be how things are prevented. God isn't held as deceiving us by forbidding John from writing down what the seven thunders said.

he's a Christian universalist...and I'm now reading his series on demons

https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/why-didnt-jesus-explain-demons-what-are-demons-part-2
In the very well researched work by Duncan Heaster called The Real Devil, he notes...
"When we read in Acts 8:7 of unclean spirits crying out, the Eastern (Aramaic) text reads: "Many who were mentally afflicted cried out". This is because, according to George Lamsa, ""Unclean spirits" is an Aramaic term used to describe lunatics" (3). It should be noted that Lamsa was a native Aramaic speaker with a fine understanding of Aramaic terms. He grew up in a remote part of Kurdistan which had maintained the Aramaic language almost unchanged since the time of Jesus. It's significant that Lamsa's extensive writings indicate that he failed to see in the teachings of Jesus and Paul any support for the popular conception of the devil and demons- he insisted that the Semitic and Aramaic terms used by them have been misunderstood by Western readers and misused in order to lend support for their conceptions of a personal devil and demons."

Lamsa's prejudice against the supernatural warped his translation of the NT.  Thus for Acts 8:7, Lamsa speaks of people "mentally afflicted" instead of those oppressed by "unclean spirits."

Acts 8:7, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For many whom unclean spirits possessed cried with a high voice, and they came out from them; and others, palsied and lame, were healed:
(Murdock) For many who were possessed by unclean spirits, cried with a loud voice, and came out of them: and others, who were paralytic and lame, were healed.
(Lamsa) Many who were mentally afflicted, cried with loud voices and were restored; and others who were paralytic and lame, were healed.
(KJV) For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Or maybe he's correct. I continue to find how easily interchangeable to words translated as 'demon' and 'unclean spirit' are odd. If something is a demon and demon means what it seems to mean you call it a demon, the term 'unclean spirit' dilutes the idea. Lamsa's confusion (if that's what it is) is hardly surprising.

To me, in the interlinear, if there is the word "the" would be an indication.. like when the exorcists trying to exorcise on behalf of a person, it said Jesus I know and Paul, but who are you and they beat the man, or was it men?

Acts 19
11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
- 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/19-12.htm "the" is G#3588  :dontknow: made sense to me when I first thought it, about "the" being included indicating something..

But I suppose it could be the affliction.. or the mental disorder.. :dontknow: Not saying that's what I believe. The idea of disobedient angels as well as humans seems logical to me.

how about these verses, I wonder..

no, but that the things that the nations sacrifice -- they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not wish you to come into the fellowship of the demons. 1 Cor 10:20

Ps. 106:37 And they sacrifice their sons And their daughters to destroyers some versions, demons :
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/106-37.htm ?
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7700.htm  :Chinscratch: -- There's other O.T. verses with the word "shed" H#7700  :dontknow: -

Like They sacrificed to demons ("sheds") that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never feared. Deuteronomy 32:17

shed: probably demon..
Brown-Driver-Briggs -- [שֵׁד] noun [masculine] apparently demon (loan-word from Assyrian šêdu, a protecting spirit, especially of bull-colossus, DlPa 153 f.; WB 645 COTDeuteronomy 32:17 ZimKAT3. 460 f., 455, 649; compare Aramaic שֵׁידָא, demon, and (perhaps) Phoenician proper name גדשד NöZMG xiii (1888), 481 Lzb249; originally √שׁוד ( = Arabic  rule) according to Thes BaudSemitic Rei. i. 130 ff. DlWB and others; > Arabic  (III, IV aid, HomZMG xlvi (1892), 529, against this Ziml. c); — יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ Deuteronomy 32:17 (compare Dr), Psalm 106:37 (human sacrifice).

Not much to dis-agree with that human sacrifice is a mental disorder! :mshock:

Gah, did you see that there are four different words in that first sentence all apparently translated as 'the'?

:Chinscratch: This is interesting... (?)

1 Samuel 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Philistines and the Ark
5 Then the Philistines took the ark of God and brought it from Ebenezer to Ashdod. 2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon and set it by Dagon. 3 And when the people of Ashdod arose early in the morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the earth before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again. 4 And when they arose early the next morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the ground before the ark of the Lord. The head of Dagon and both the palms of its hands were broken off on the threshold; only Dagon's torso was left of it. 5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon nor any who come into Dagon's house tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod to this day.

Not as support one way or another.. just interesting..

Trying to tempt Jesus - "9 And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Mt. 4:9

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/4-1.htm

Indeed, so. You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.

shed: probably demon..
Brown-Driver-Briggs -- [שֵׁד] noun [masculine] apparently demon (loan-word from Assyrian šêdu, a protecting spirit, especially of bull-colossus, DlPa 153 f.; WB 645 COTDeuteronomy 32:17 ZimKAT3. 460 f., 455, 649; compare Aramaic שֵׁידָא, demon, and (perhaps) Phoenician proper name גדשד NöZMG xiii (1888), 481 Lzb249; originally √שׁוד ( = Arabic  rule) according to Thes BaudSemitic Rei. i. 130 ff. DlWB and others; > Arabic  (III, IV aid, HomZMG xlvi (1892), 529, against this Ziml. c); — יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ Deuteronomy 32:17 (compare Dr), Psalm 106:37 (human sacrifice).

Not much to dis-agree with that human sacrifice is a mental disorder!

Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"?
Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?

In both cases, some of them. Do of them are just some form of wicked, but they don't have to have a demon for that. It's a binary choice between 'demon' or 'mental illness' for the explanation of human wickedness.

[DavidFord]

"Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth"
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth"?
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"
'Evolution' has numerous definitions.  Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
Do you think Jesus was involved in the creation of:  matter-energy?  biology?
"I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect"
Do you think Jesus believed things that Jesus believed "were incorrect"?

I probably shouldn't really use the word 'myth' is has baggage I don't really want to bring in, however it's also simple for shorthand conversation.

Evolution may have many definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period. According to that God just built everything and assembled it in situ.

No, Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect, but He would know that other members of society believed them and may employ them for use as lessons if they served the term, unless there is a more major issue of honesty here which i don't yet see the ramifications off. But this seems difficult to believe but it would seem to require God to tell us everything and withhold nothing lest He be accused of deceit by omission and that doesn't seem to be how things are prevented. God isn't held as deceiving us by forbidding John from writing down what the seven thunders said.

What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth" (or whatever less-baggage word or phrase you wish to substitute)?

"Evolution... definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period"
If 'evolution' is defined as 'change over time,' then "God creating the world in an historic seven day period" has the world undergoing evolution/'change over time' during the 7 days.
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"  Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?

"Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect"
Agreed.  Do you think that Jesus' remarks about demons were remarks that Jesus believed to be correct?

[DavidFord]

Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"?  Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?

In both cases, some of them. Do of them are just some form of wicked, but they don't have to have a demon for that. It's a binary choice between 'demon' or 'mental illness' for the explanation of human wickedness.

You think demons don't exist, so you can't use 'demonic influence' to explain any wickedness.
A Nazi plucked the beautiful eyes of a Jewish girl out of her head, while her mother watched.  Did that plucking arise from "a mental disorder"?
What's your view of the remark below?

Ana Mendez Ferrell, _Regions of Captivity_ (2015), 171pp., 80.
https://www.amazon.com/Regions-Captivity-Ana-Mendez-Ferrell/dp/1933163224/
He [Hitler] studied the occult extensively.  The devil asked him to reproduce a replica of hell on earth.

[DavidFord]

You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.

Do you think it's possible for a non-sentient/non-conscious entity to:  believe something?  will something?  ask for permission?

James 2:19 
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%202:19
DLNT  You believe that God is one? You do well. Even the demons believe and shudder!
YLT  thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

Mt 12:44 
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2012:44
DLNT  Then it says, 'I will return to my house from where I came-out'. And having come, it finds it being unoccupied, having been swept and put-in-order.
YLT  then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned:

Lk 8:32 
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%208:32
NIV  A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission.

[marie glen]

Indeed, so. You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.

True, I just thought it was interesting.

[jabcat]

Quick note - some of the graphic details/links have become disturbing to some member(s).  Perhaps we could wrap up this dwelling on reported demons and demonic activity and move on to things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious :) .  That would keep the thread from getting locked.  Thanks.

[DavidFord]

Quick note - some of the graphic details/links have become disturbing to some member(s).  Perhaps we could wrap up this dwelling on reported demons and demonic activity and move on to things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious :) .  That would keep the thread from getting locked.  Thanks.

Romans 16:20 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2016%3A20&version=YLT;HCSB;DLNT
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

From
http://holloway270.rssing.com/chan-26172398/all_p3.html
So how do we avoid doing battle with him unwisely?

How do you think?

I guess you're going to say listen to you.

Yes. You could try another approach, but if you want to do damage and come out undamaged yourself, then you're going to have to listen to me. I could do nothing worth doing, and neither can you, without hearing the voice. Simple as that. But let's keep talking about doing damage, hunting him down, inflicting pain, pushing him back. Because Mark either you're going to do that to him, or he's going to do it to you. Your choice.  ....  Will somebody PLEASE go downstairs and get stuck into him. No I'm not too weak to do it myself, but here's the picture I want you to see. I want YOU to inflict the harm on him, it will teach him AND YOU such an important lesson about the order of things. I so badly want people to see this.  ....I want you ALL to go downstairs and give him a DARNED GOOD THRASHING, on a daily basis.  .... I could remove him with a thought, frizzle him, uncreate him. But how much more humiliating for him if you do it. Can you see that?

God people want you to do it for them. To somehow just make him not there.

Yes they do, but that's not going to happen. I want YOU to teach him a lesson. YOU! I did it and said that you'd do greater things. Paul did it and said to imitate him.  ....I want you to go downstairs, upstairs, outside, inside and give the supreme hater, the liar and the destroyer, that one, and his sidekicks -- I want you ALL to give them a thrashing. BECAUSE IF YOU DO IT, YOU WILL AVENGE YOURSELVES. If I do it, then it will just be me doing it.  ....  Mark I think you're all so wonderful, I champion you, I want to stand on the side lines and cheer while you knock him to his knees and while he's down, kick him under his jaw, snap his neck and then get out your sword and cut off his head. Do you understand? And if your detractors want a scripture – give them this one... EPH 3:10. And this one, Gen 3:15. And if they want more, tell them to search for more. They're all in there.

[marie glen]

I like this verse in Galatians.. "above all.. the large covering shield of faith with which all adversarial darts fall" against.. are broken and fall harmless to the ground.. And I believe in peaceful authority, and peaceful trusting faith.. a "resting in Him". And in that condition I believe we progressively learn to hear and trust the Lord's voice, teaching and leading. Which He is SO good at doing, and we are being remade into His likeness, "we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is". And no spiritual enemy can touch us. God is faithful to finish in us all He has started.

The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.. If the mountains were to fall into the sea we shall not be afraid for He is our refuge.. our strong and high tower.. (ps.)

[DavidFord]

and peaceful trusting faith.. a "resting in Him". And in that condition I believe we progressively learn to hear and trust the Lord's voice, teaching and leading

How frequently do you converse with God in 2-way conversations?

From
http://holloway270.rssing.com/chan-26172398/all_p2.html
God it's a bit frightening to suggest that I heard the above explanation direct from you.

Mark what you heard me say was look it up. Now it's up to you and anyone else who has seen what the original Greek says to ask me what it means.
Remember that other scripture that says 'You do not need anyone to teach you, but as the anointing teaches you...' I'm the anointing Mark. Ask me about anything you want to know, bible verses included, and I'll be glad to explain.
And don't just wait for my answer to waft through the universe. Take action. Write, speak, think, sing, play, dance, draw your question and then proceed to do the same for my answer – you start and I'll supply the words.

Wow thanks.

You're welcome.

[DavidFord]

things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious

Prayer is profitable, and can generate uplifting news through victory in Jesus.

Ex-witch Elaine, in Rebecca Brown, _He Came to Set the Captives Free_ (1986), 288pp., 79-80:
Then, suddenly, after about six months, I began to realize that every time I did an incantation in the direction of that doctor the ... came back to me unable to get through. They were not pleased! This was a complication that I didn't need just then! I was puzzled as I had never experienced such a thing before. I did not talk to anyone else about the problem because to admit that my power was failing would have been fatal for me.
Then about three weeks before I turned to Jesus, I received a phone call from Helen. That doctor who had left the hospital dying four months earlier had just that day returned to work. Not only had she returned, but she was completely healed! I was shocked. How could that be? I realized then that a power much greater than anything I had ever seen had blocked us and again I remembered the link angels in California. This doctor must possess the same power that that [angel-protected] family had. I realized that that power was Jesus Christ. ....
Later that day ... showed up again, most unhappy, to ask me why we had failed. "Don't you know?!" I asked. "Yes," he replied, "but I want to know if you know."
"Well I assume somebody must have blocked us by prayer."
"That is right," was his curt answer, then he vanished.

[DavidFord]

A great victory will be achieved when the gates of hell come down.

From
http://holloway270.rssing.com/chan-26172398/all_p3.html
Why?

Because that's the order of things. The ... are afraid of the angels, they're even more afraid of you humans.

Really? Why God?

Because you're so unpredictably powerful. You have little idea of your power, scant idea of the damage you are often doing to them and the enormous damage you could do if only you knew how. They understand that one day a whole generation of you are going to stand up, be counted and pursue them with a vengeance. They know that when that day comes the gates of hell will be kicked aside by small children, the greatest strongman will be tortured and taunted by old ladies. They have heard the whisper, they know the legend and they are desperately trying to tell each of you – Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic and every other religion – they're desperately telling you that you are NOT dangerous, that you DON'T have any power over them.

[MusicLover123]

Regarding the 2 way conversation thing, we are told to "test every Spirit." Thanks to someone else's comment here, In realize it does not say "reject every Spirit" but to test them. You know this by it exalting the one who sent it. If God sent it, it will exalt Him. Everything else though, if it does not exalt God, you know to not listen to it.

Discernment will go to those who ask for it, and if it is His will. I question a couple things from there, but mostly it seems OK. This rule of discernment applies to anything though. Including hearing God's voice, dreams, visions, taken up in the Spirit, etc.

I also realize now why God calls a lot of Muslims out through dreams. They see dreams as important, and willing to listen to them. Most western people don't think of God as personal sadly, that He actually speaks in different ways. No wonder you hardly hear of experiences around here like that.

[DavidFord]

Regarding the 2 way conversation thing, we are told to "test every Spirit." Thanks to someone else's comment here, In realize it does not say "reject every Spirit" but to test them. You know this by it exalting the one who sent it. If God sent it, it will exalt Him. Everything else though, if it does not exalt God, you know to not listen to it.

Discernment will go to those who ask for it, and if it is His will. I question a couple things from there, but mostly it seems OK. This rule of discernment applies to anything though. Including hearing God's voice, dreams, visions, taken up in the Spirit, etc.

I also realize now why God calls a lot of Muslims out through dreams. They see dreams as important, and willing to listen to them. Most western people don't think of God as personal sadly, that He actually speaks in different ways. No wonder you hardly hear of experiences around here like that.

Are you interested in pursuing doing 2-way dialogue with God?  Besides Mark Holloway, some others that have done it are

David Manuel, _Once Upon a Prayer: How to Hear God in Your Heart_ (2004), 111pp.
Merlin Carothers, _Prison to Praise_ (1970)
Bob Beaudine, _2 Chairs: The Secret That Changes Everything_ (2018), 170pp.
Brad Jersak and Eden Jersak, _Rivers from Eden: 40 Days of Intimate Conversation with God_ (2004), 175pp.

"Discernment will go to those who ask for it"
Practicing helps, too.

Hebrews 5:14 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+5:14&version=KJV
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[MusicLover123]

I'm not against those things happening. In fact, I would like to have lots of those experiences, like the ones I listed. Unbelief is my main problem though, if it was/will be just all in my own head.

I do write down my experiences, and things I think God told me. Other than maybe a couple short tines, it haven't been "2 way conversations" yet.

[marie glen]

I'm not interested in anybody's coaching. When I pray and study I've learned to also 'listen'.  Just a matter of quietness of Spirit.. seeking.. a "waiting upon Him".. the teacher I trust is the Holy Spirit .. Which also, is different from my own heart / self interest. Like anything.. practice, consistency, or, I.e. faithfulness, and experience.. A big diversion these days, I think, is the Internet!  :laughing7: An open door for communicating the great news, but too much if we find ourselves neglecting our quality time with Him, via His Word and Spirit (prayer), the bread & wine? If we don't feed our spirit both.. the fruit will tend to wither on the vine..

Hope I don't sound argumentative. :eek: I've always shied away from teachers and teachings. But of course I know there is many/some good, even needed(?) teachers! :gsmile:

[CST]

"Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth"
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth"?
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"
'Evolution' has numerous definitions.  Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
Do you think Jesus was involved in the creation of:  matter-energy?  biology?
"I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect"
Do you think Jesus believed things that Jesus believed "were incorrect"?

I probably shouldn't really use the word 'myth' is has baggage I don't really want to bring in, however it's also simple for shorthand conversation.

Evolution may have many definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period. According to that God just built everything and assembled it in situ.

No, Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect, but He would know that other members of society believed them and may employ them for use as lessons if they served the term, unless there is a more major issue of honesty here which i don't yet see the ramifications off. But this seems difficult to believe but it would seem to require God to tell us everything and withhold nothing lest He be accused of deceit by omission and that doesn't seem to be how things are prevented. God isn't held as deceiving us by forbidding John from writing down what the seven thunders said.

What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth" (or whatever less-baggage word or phrase you wish to substitute)?

"Evolution... definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period"
If 'evolution' is defined as 'change over time,' then "God creating the world in an historic seven day period" has the world undergoing evolution/'change over time' during the 7 days.
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"  Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?

"Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect"
Agreed.  Do you think that Jesus' remarks about demons were remarks that Jesus believed to be correct?

This is not the thread to discuss most of those things, we're hugely off topic already and I've alluded to my feelings on another thread recently. Do I believe Jesus remarks about demons were remarks He believed to be correct? As long as you remember He was speaking in parables, yes. If you think He was trying to teach people actual demons directly exist as we tend to understand them your mistaken.

Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"?  Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?

In both cases, some of them. Do of them are just some form of wicked, but they don't have to have a demon for that. It's a binary choice between 'demon' or 'mental illness' for the explanation of human wickedness.

You think demons don't exist, so you can't use 'demonic influence' to explain any wickedness.
A Nazi plucked the beautiful eyes of a Jewish girl out of her head, while her mother watched.  Did that plucking arise from "a mental disorder"?
What's your view of the remark below?

Ana Mendez Ferrell, _Regions of Captivity_ (2015), 171pp., 80.
https://www.amazon.com/Regions-Captivity-Ana-Mendez-Ferrell/dp/1933163224/
He [Hitler] studied the occult extensively.  The devil asked him to reproduce a replica of hell on earth.

I don't believe demons exist as generally understood and I don't believe they have the effects the are purported to have. I'm not complete closed to the idea that the only source for evil in the world is man. The term demonic influence can be held as valid especially if people allow themselves to be influence by it. People have committed murders after watching horror movies. None of the demons in horror movies exist but the effect is the same.

You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.

Do you think it's possible for a non-sentient/non-conscious entity to:  believe something?  will something?  ask for permission?

James 2:19 
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%202:19
DLNT  You believe that God is one? You do well. Even the demons believe and shudder!
YLT  thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

Mt 12:44 
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2012:44
DLNT  Then it says, 'I will return to my house from where I came-out'. And having come, it finds it being unoccupied, having been swept and put-in-order.
YLT  then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned:

Lk 8:32 
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%208:32
NIV  A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission.

Hmm, the Rich Man in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus asks for wated. He exists in the context of the parable and the lesson and can ask, just not in reality.

Indeed, so. You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.

True, I just thought it was interesting.

It is - very. I'm just not just how instructive it is when we don't know what the four words mean and why they are different.

Quick note - some of the graphic details/links have become disturbing to some member(s).  Perhaps we could wrap up this dwelling on reported demons and demonic activity and move on to things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious :) .  That would keep the thread from getting locked.  Thanks.

I'd started creating my reply before I saw this, I don't think the mentioned inks are helpful because I think they're a bunch of lies from false people so I don't read them and am all the more glad I didn't. Yet the tangent seems generally relevant to the subject of the thread so I'm going to stop replying for the moment now although I'm not entirely satisfied with doing so.

[DavidFord]

I'm not complete closed to the idea that the only source for evil in the world is man.

How about angels?-- the OT and especially the NT make many mentions of angels.  Do you think angels exist as a source for good in the world?

Matthew 18:10 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=HCSB&quicksearch=angel&limit=500
"See that you don't look down on one of these little ones, because I tell you that in heaven their angels continually view the face of My Father in heaven.

[DavidFord]

I'm not against those things happening. In fact, I would like to have lots of those experiences, like the ones I listed. Unbelief is my main problem though, if it was/will be just all in my own head.

I do write down my experiences, and things I think God told me. Other than maybe a couple short tines, it haven't been "2 way conversations" yet.

Here's one way to push past unbelief/ doubt when doing 2-way dialogues with God:

How to Hear God's Voice
https://www.cwgministries.org/Four-Keys-to-Hearing-Gods-Voice
I have found two-way journaling to be a fabulous catalyst for clearly discerning God's inner, spontaneous flow, because as I journal I am able to write in faith for long periods of time, simply believing it is God.  I know that what I believe I have received from God must be tested.  However, testing involves doubt and doubt blocks divine communication, so I do not want to test while I am trying to receive. (See James 1:5-8.)  With journaling, I can receive in faith, knowing that when the flow has ended I can test and examine it carefully.

[DavidFord]

_The Message of Sadhu Sundar Singh:  A Study in Mysticism on Practical Religion_, by B.H. Streeter (1921), 100-102 https://archive.org/stream/themessageofsadh00streuoft/themessageofsadh00streuoft_djvu.txt
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y294ubn2 which redirects to a specific page of https://books.google.com/books?id=w0AXAAAAYAAJ
hat tip:  Peter Tan, _The Spiritual World_ (2007), 144pp., Appendix
http://johannministries.com/site/messages/book.html
hat tip for Peter Tan:  Praying Medic, _Seeing in the Spirit Made Simple_ (2015), 157pp., 43
https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Spirit-Made-Simple-Kingdom/dp/0692427929/
HELL
"I was also told that the love of God operates even in Hell.  God does not shine in His full light, because those there could not bear it, but He gradually shows them more and more light, and by and by brings them on and moves their conscience towards something better, although they think that the desire is entirely their own.  Thus God works on their minds from within, something in the same way, though in the opposite direction, as that in which Satan suggests temptation to us here.  Thus, what with God's work within and the Light without, almost all those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Christ's feet.  It will perhaps take millions of ages, but when it is attained they will be full of joy and thankfulness towards God; though they will still be less happy than those who have accepted Christ on earth.  Thus Hell also is a training school, a place of preparation for Home.  Those in Hell know that it is not their home because they suffer there.  Men were not created for Hell and therefore do not enjoy it, and, when there, desire to escape to Heaven.  They do so, but they find Heaven even more uncongenial than Hell, so they return.  But this convinces them that there is something wrong in their lives, and thus they are gradually led to repentance.  At least, that is the case with the majority, but there are some few personalities, Satan for instance, in regard to whom I was told, 'Don't ask about them.'  And so I didn't like to ask, but I hoped that for them also there was some hope. 

"They also told me that the Saints help in the work of saving souls in Hell, because there can be no idleness in Heaven.  Those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Heaven like the prodigal son, but with regard to the ultimate fate of a certain number you must not ask."  The Sadhu is inclined to think that perhaps these few will be annihilated. 

"Once I said, 'So many people will be lost because they have not heard of Christ.'  They said, 'The contrary will be the case; very few will be lost.'  There is a kind of heavenly joke, no, joke is not a good word for it.  'Very few will be lost but many will be saved.  It is so, but don't tell' they said, as it were, in jest, 'because it will make men careless, and we want them to enjoy the First Heaven-- that is the Heaven on earth-- as well.' " 

"If there were no hope for all the non-Christians in the world and all the Christians who die in sin, God would stop creating men.  We must do our part here on earth to save sinners, but if they refuse we need not be without hope for them." 

The Sadhu's "universalism" recalls the famous "Shewing" to Mother Juliana of Norwich, "All manner of things shall be well," and her comments thereon except that her respect for the authority of the Church precludes her making any suggestion how this may be possible.  The Sadhu faithfully obeys the injunction, "Don't tell."  In his popular teachings, as we shall see in the next chapter, he stresses the need of repentance, and the certainty of immediate judgment in the next life, but he never speaks of his hope of ultimate salvation even for the unrepentant.

[marie glen]

As you probably know, the study apps and programs - as far as I know - don't work well for copy and pasting the interlinear word for word of verses, so I look for the closest translation (available) to copy/paste.

As we know, the word translated by King James' translators (and others?) as hell in the OT, was "sheol".

According to the OT "all go to one place" (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20). Psalm 89:48 says, "What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?"

Job said "oh if only you, LORD, would hide me in sheol" (Job 13:14). When Jacob thought Joseph was killed by wild animals, he said "I will go down to sheol grieving.." To a subterranean  basement? Or "I will go to my grave grieving"..?

Ecclesiastes 9:10 says (suggests? no, lol) "All that your hand finds to do, with your power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol where you (we, all) are going." Youngs Literal Version

I thought I would look at the verbs of the verse -

No work - from H4639 - maaseh - "a deed, work.. translated as no accomplishing, achieving, activity, deeds, actions, etc." -- From "asah" - H6213 - "accomplish, do, make" ----- No doing? in sheol.

No device - H2808 - cheshbon - "reckoning, account" -  No reckoning?!

No knowledge - H1847 - daath - "knowledge" -- From "yada" H3045 - "to know" ---- Is this where that annoying yada, yada, yada comes from? :laughing7:   No knowing.

And, no wisdom - H2451 - chokmah - "wisdom" -- From H2449 - chakam - "to be wise"

The words with links interlinear on biblehub -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm

[sheila]

 :2c:no work,wisdom,knowledge...ofcoarse...for we can do NOTHING[vanity]of ourselves. But..if the same spirit that was in Christ..isin you

then..you can do allthings...and nothing is impossible foryou.

our flesh 'rests/dissolves/returnsto dust'  sparedfrom the 'sin works' imposed onit..by the princeof this world.Flesh and blood does

notinherit...but the new spiritual creature does.

our terresteral 'body consciouness' will be dissolved.....'whether in the body or not,Iknow not"is a small glimse of this 'change?

    donot eat of that tree or ye shall die in the day[no flesh lived past the 1000 year day]  thus God in His mercy give the free gift

of eternallife unto man...that which was sown in weaknes/corruption shall be raised up anew creation in spirit..with power/incorruption

and immortality[nomore death]

     satan and his demons will receive what they dished out to man....their 'flesh' will also dissolve and disappear in the LOF.

yes..they have 'flesh'made of invisible dust of heaven. It is notof the same 'type' as Jesus said when He  appeared after resurrection.


    GOD IS NOT COUNTING OUR TRESSPASSES AGAINST OUR ETERNAL LIVES[the new creature]though man has reaped what satan

has sownunto our corruptible weak flesh..even the suffering/corruption and  death of our terrestrial flesh.


   If He died for us while we were still 'sinners=in corruption] willHe not freely give us allthings? Really,you think God isgoing to torment

the 'NEW INCORRUPTIBLE/IMMORTAL CREATURE RAISED UP IN CHRIST'S IMAGE?"

[DavidFord]

_Visions of The Spiritual World_ by Sadhu Sundar Singh (1926)
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
The Manifestation of Christ
I saw in a vision the spirit of an idolater, on reaching the world of spirits, begin at once to search for his god.  Then the saints said to him, "There is no god here save the One True God, and Christ, Who is His manifestation."  At this the man was a good deal astonished, but being a sincere seeker after truth, he frankly admitted that he had been in error.  He eagerly sought to know the correct view of truth, and asked if he might see the Christ. Shortly after this Christ manifested Himself in a dim light to him, and to others who had newly arrived in the world of spirits, because at this stage they could not have endured a full exhibition of His glory, for His glory is so surpassing that even the angels look on Him with difficulty, and cover their faces with their wings (Isaiah vi. 2). When He does reveal Himself to any one He takes into account the particular stage of progress to which that soul has attained, so He appears dimly, or in the fuller light of His glory, that the sight of Him may be endured.  So, when these spirits saw Christ in this dim but attractive light, they were filled with a joy and peace which is beyond our power to describe.  Bathed in the rays of His life-giving light, and with the waves of His love, which constantly flow out from Him, flowing over them, all their error was washed away.  Then with all their hearts they acknowledged Him as the Truth, and found healing, and, bowing in lowly adoration before Him, thanked and praised Him.  And the saints who had been appointed for their instruction also rejoiced over them.

[DavidFord]

_Visions of The Spiritual World_ by Sadhu Sundar Singh - 1926
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
Death of a Philosopher
The soul of a German philosopher entered into the world of spirits and saw from afar the incomparable glory of the spiritual world and the boundless happiness of its people.  He was delighted with what he saw, but his stubborn intellectualism stood in the way of his entering into it and enjoying its happiness.  Instead of admitting that it was real, he argued thus with himself, "There is no doubt at all that I see all this, but what proof is there that it has objective existence, and is not some illusion conjured up by my mind?  From end to end of all this scene I will apply the tests of logic, philosophy and science, and then only will I be convinced that it has a reality of its own and is no illusion." 

Then the angels answered him, "It is evident from your speech that your intellectualism has warped your whole nature, for as spiritual and not bodily eyes are needed to see the spiritual world, so spiritual understanding is necessary to comprehend its reality, and not mental exercises in the fundamentals of logic and philosophy.  Your science that deals with material facts has been left behind with your physical skull and brain in the world.  Here, only that spiritual wisdom is of use which arises out of the fear and love of God." 

Then said one of the angels to another, "What a pity it is that people forget that precious word of our Lord, 'Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven'" (Matt, xviii. 3). 
I asked one of the angels what the end of this man would be, and he replied, "If this man's life had been altogether bad, then he would at once have joined the spirits of darkness, but he is not without a moral sense, so for a very long time he will wander blindly round in the dim light of the lower parts of the intermediate state, and keep on bumping his philosophical head, until, tired of his foolishness, he repents.  Then he will be ready to receive the necessary instruction from the angels appointed for that purpose, and, when instructed, will be fit to enter into the fuller light of God in the higher sphere."