those in Sheol getting what they dished out to others?

[MusicLover123]

Is it fair to say that the "answers are in the Scriptures" but revealed by the Spirit?

The Scriptures meaning are only revealed to a Spiritually minded person. Otherwise it is just ink on a page, and makes no sense to
the carnally minded.

[sheila]

of course,2 Cor 3;13-17 :2c:each in their order..all loved by God...and brought into it at His timeing. No-one

can boast..anything we have in the way of understanding..was given. To build upthe household of faith..not tear down. We can't

disenfranchise any man of his birthright in Christ or his free gift,orofthe Love ofHis Father[prodigal or not]

progressive..prospering in the spirit...the light growing brighter...........

  Maythe Lord cause His face to shine uponyou. Those eyes of fire are jealous for all our sakes...He desires to burn the chaff andtares away

in our understanding,that weknow the intensity of His and the Father's love for all of us.

  Zech 1;14,8;2,3

[marie glen]

Is it fair to say that the "answers are in the Scriptures" but revealed by the Spirit?

The Scriptures meaning are only revealed to a Spiritually minded person. Otherwise it is just ink on a page, and makes no sense to
the carnally minded.

Amen, :iagree: totally.. Though I think there can be some understanding.. but then again, that too is the light via His Spirit (Which I think is His Presence) his giving and guiding..

As Sister Sheila said..!
...Amen! His jealousy is like a fire.. burns away the chaff.. what we believe becomes part of us.. to be submitted.. "progressing" to being (spiritual) virgins.. who follow only the Lord, whithersoever He goeth.. As a furnace of fire, his Spirit is at work in us.. the fruit of thankfulness.. for what has anyone but what they are given.. why call Me good? Jesus said. "There is only One good.."
:cloud9: :girlheart:

[DavidFord]

This is the only proposition I'm even prepared to consider for the existence of demons: that belief in demons creates demons.

Do you agree with me that according to the Bible, there existed:  familiar spirits?  unclean spirits?  evil spirits?
Do you agree with me that some people (e.g., witches) have been in touch with 'familiar spirits'?

some searches of Young's Literal Translation
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=familiar+spirit&qs_version=YLT&limit=500
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirit&qs_version=YLT&limit=500
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=evil+spirit&qs_version=YLT&limit=500

=============================.
FAMILIAR SPIRITS

Leviticus 19:31 (YLT)
`Ye do not turn unto those having familiar spirits; and unto wizards ye do not seek, for uncleanness by them; I [am] Jehovah your God.
Leviticus 20:6, 27
`And the person who turneth unto those having familiar spirits, and unto the wizards, to go a-whoring after them, I have even set My face against that person, and cut him off from the midst of his people.  .... `And a man or woman -- when there is in them a familiar spirit, or who [are] wizards -- are certainly put to death; with stones they stone them; their blood [is] on them.'
Deuteronomy 18:11
and a charmer, and one asking at a familiar spirit, and a wizard, and one seeking unto the dead.
1 Samuel 28:3-9
And Samuel hath died, and all Israel mourn for him, and bury him in Ramah, even in his city, and Saul hath turned aside those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
1 Samuel 28:7-9
And Saul saith to his servants, `Seek for me a woman possessing a familiar spirit, and I go unto her, and inquire of her;' and his servants say unto him, `Lo, a woman possessing a familiar spirit in En-dor.'  And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'  And the woman saith unto him, `Lo, thou hast known that which Saul hath done, that he hath cut off those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land; and why art thou laying a snare for my soul -- to put me to death?'
2 Kings 21:6
and he hath caused his son to pass through fire, and observed clouds, and used enchantment, and dealt with a familiar spirit and wizards; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah -- to provoke to anger.
2 Kings 23:24
And also, those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the teraphim, and the idols, and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah, and in Jerusalem, hath Josiah put away, in order to establish the words of the law that are written on the book that Hilkiah the priest hath found in the house of Jehovah.
1 Chronicles 10:13
And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, --
2 Chronicles 33:6
And he hath caused his sons to pass over through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and observed clouds and used enchantments and witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and a wizard; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger.
Isaiah 8:19
And when they say unto you, `Seek unto those having familiar spirits, And unto wizards, who chatter and mutter, Doth not a people seek unto its God? -- For the living unto the dead!
Isaiah 19:3
And emptied out hath been in its midst the spirit of Egypt. And its counsel I swallow up, And they have sought unto the idols, And unto the charmers, And unto those having familiar spirits, And unto the wizards.

=============================.
UNCLEAN SPIRITS

Matthew 10:1
And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave to them power over unclean spirits, so as to be casting them out, and to be healing every sickness, and every malady.
Matthew 12:43
`And, when the unclean spirit may go forth from the man, it doth walk through dry places seeking rest, and doth not find;
Mark 1:23-27
And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out,  ....  and the unclean spirit having torn him, and having cried with a great voice, came forth out of him,  .... and they were all amazed, so as to reason among themselves, saying, `What is this? what new teaching [is] this? that with authority also the unclean spirits he commandeth, and they obey him!'
Mark 3:11
and the unclean spirits, when they were seeing him, were falling down before him, and were crying, saying -- `Thou art the Son of God;'
Mark 5:2-13
and he having come forth out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,  .... (for he said to him, `Come forth, spirit unclean, out of the man,')  .... and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea -- and they were about two thousand -- and they were choked in the sea.
Mark 6:7
and he doth call near the twelve, and he began to send them forth two by two, and he was giving them power over the unclean spirits,
Mark 7:25
for a woman having heard about him, whose little daughter had an unclean spirit, having come, fell at his feet, --
Mark 9:25
Jesus having seen that a multitude doth run together, rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, `Spirit -- dumb and deaf -- I charge thee, come forth out of him, and no more thou mayest enter into him;'
Luke 4:33
And in the synagogue was a man, having a spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a great voice,  ....  and amazement came upon all, and they were speaking together, with one another, saying, `What [is] this word, that with authority and power he doth command the unclean spirits, and they come forth?'
Luke 6:18
and those harassed by unclean spirits, and they were healed,
Luke 8:29
For he commanded the unclean spirit to come forth from the man, for many times it had caught him, and he was being bound with chains and fetters -- guarded, and breaking asunder the bonds he was driven by the demons to the deserts.
Luke 9:42
and as he is yet coming near, the demon rent him, and tore [him] sore, and Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the youth, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24
`When the unclean spirit may go forth from the man it walketh through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding, it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth;
Acts 5:16
and there were coming together also the people of the cities round about to Jerusalem, bearing ailing persons, and those harassed by unclean spirits -- who were all healed.
Acts 8:7
for unclean spirits came forth from many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who have been paralytic and lame were healed,
Revelation 16:13
and I saw [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs --
Revelation 18:2
and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,

=============================.
EVIL SPIRITS

Judges 9:23
and God sendeth an evil spirit between Abimelech and the masters of Shechem, and the masters of Shechem deal treacherously with Abimelech,
1 Kings 22:23
And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee -- evil.'
Matthew 12:45
then doth it go, and take with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having gone in they dwell there, and the last of that man doth become worse than the first; so shall it be also to this evil generation.'
Luke 7:21
And in that hour he cured many from sicknesses, and plagues, and evil spirits, and to many blind he granted sight.
Luke 8:2
and certain women, who were healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary who is called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone forth,
Luke 11:26
then doth it go, and take to it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having entered, they dwell there, and the last of that man becometh worst than the first.'
Acts 19:12-16
so that even unto the ailing were brought from his body handkerchiefs or aprons, and the sicknesses departed from them; the evil spirits also went forth from them.  And certain of the wandering exorcist Jews, took upon [them] to name over those having the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, `We adjure you by Jesus, whom Paul doth preach;'  ....  and the evil spirit, answering, said, `Jesus I know, and Paul I am acquainted with; and ye -- who are ye?'  .... And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaping upon them, and having overcome them, prevailed against them, so that naked and wounded they did flee out of that house,

[MusicLover123]

I've got an idea. Why don't you go ask a witch to put a curse on you? If you don't believe in demons, there is absolutely nothing to worry about according to you.

No, don't actually do that, but if you really wanted to(a bad idea) you could test your beliefs out.

[marie glen]

To me, I think the question is, can angels think and reason?

[sheila]

..in all fairness...that evil spirits exist does'freak' a lot of people out. fear?unbelief in the scriptures[Jesus/wordof God come inflesh}?

arrogance ofmodern man?/and in reality the ignorance of people in the past in these matters[evileye/superstitions etc] have played it's

part in it.Really,it's up to God to reveal these things..whether through a dream,manifestation or in whatever way He decides.

we areNOT to fear them..but draw/stay close to God.my  :2c:

[DavidFord]

I think belief in demons is a rather negative idea

For some, belief that wer beasts exist "is a rather negative idea."  Rebecca Brown describes a frightening encounter she had with a werwolf in
_He Came to Set the Captives Free_ (1986), 288pp., 228-9.
https://www.amazon.com/He-Came-Set-Captives-Free/dp/0883683237/

it's questions like these that make me doubt the existence of demons. Demons seem to block the access of the possessed to God. When I believed in the tradition view of Hell I often wondered what happened if someone died while still possessed by a demon. How did their being possessed after their standing before God when judged. Since the effect didn't sound promising I started to doubt demons exist. I still do, I don't see unfair for God to judge people for their offences against others which they chose to commit. However offences they committed that they were compelled or tricked into committing by Satan or demons.

Apparently demons can at times prevent people from turning their allegiance to Jesus.  Brown recalls one guy she was witnessing to who'd been put under a voodoo curse and consequently couldn't become a Christ-follower for over 50 years.  "I then, out loud, addressed Satan and his demons and in the name of Jesus bound them."  The guy subsequently became a Christian.  Brown, 151-2.
Everything that happened God allowed to happen.  Including people being cursed or tricked.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV;NIV
The coming of the lawless one
will be in accordance with how Satan works. 
He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. 
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion
so that they will believe the lie
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth
but have delighted in wickedness.

Romans 1:28 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV;NIV
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile
to retain the knowledge of God,
so God gave them over to a depraved mind,
so that they do what ought not to be done.

[DavidFord]

that evil spirits exist does'freak' a lot of people out  .... we areNOT to fear them..but draw/stay close to God

1 John 4:3-4 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John+4&version=KJV
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
and this is that spirit of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come;
and even now already is it in the world.
Ye are of God, little children,
and have overcome them:
because greater is he that is in you,
than he that is in the world.

James 4:7-8 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4&version=KJV
Submit yourselves therefore to God.
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God,
and he will draw nigh to you. ....

[DavidFord]

To me, I think the question is, can angels think and reason?

In the Bible accounts of angels doing 2-way communicating with people, could the angels:  think?  reason?

[DavidFord]

I've got an idea. Why don't you go ask a witch to put a curse on you? If you don't believe in demons, there is absolutely nothing to worry about according to you.
No, don't actually do that, but if you really wanted to(a bad idea) you could test your beliefs out.

I once knew someone who somebody cursed with a particular form of sudden, violent death, and the cursed person subsequently died in just such a manner.  No witches were involved, but demons definitely were.

control-f/ find for:  unspoken
Death-inviting Curses, and How to Break Them
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730

[sheila]

 :2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try

His word on it.Neither  should mere curiosity  be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare

and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father

about things.

[GodIsLove]

:2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try

His word on it.Neither  should mere curiosity  be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare

and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father

about things.

:thumbsup:

[lastpost]

:2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try

His word on it.Neither  should mere curiosity  be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare

and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father

about things.

Prayer may be difficult for some at times but it becomes all there is, because God becomes more and more into our lives with every thought of Him, helping through every obstacle – and, it seems to me, that without obstacles we never get to utilise the prayer that deeply touches the Lord; and without obstacles we pass out of this life empty. So, as strange as it may sound, overcoming the 'demons' with prayer will show them to have been blessings in regard to the fullness they have brought when this short life is over. Faith Faith Faith...

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. 'Test me in this', says the Lord Almighty, 'and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it'.

[eaglesway]

There is no place in the scripture that says anything about people being tormented by devils/demons in hell or sheol or gehenna or hades. Milton and Dante were fiction writers. Their fiction was written out of the popular myths of their time and the recent historical myths of their cultures, sort of like fantasy writers today.

As far as the judgments of the age(s) to come, they are spoken of(imo) in metaphorical language,, but the nature of these judgments is made clear in a number of places, but especially in 1 Corinthians 15.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed(katargeo) is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Jesus has conquered death and sin and is enthroned by the Father for the purpose of subjecting all the adversaries "so that God may be all in all"...... not so that most can be eternally separated from God. If death is anulled then it is because sin is no more and whatever the second death is it will also be made void, when all things are reconciled and God is "all in all"(katargeo- .From kata and argeo; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively -- abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
Colossians 1 says

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

The reason it pleased the Father to make all His fulness dwell in Jesus was for the purpose of reconciling all things to Himself, again- so that He will be all in all.

Eph 1 speaks of that purpose as a "His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ"

With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Heaven is coming to earth. Heaven is the reign of God's love through Christ's kingdom. All things will be in "heaven" and heaven will be in all things when God is "all in all". Already, even now Paul says, "For in Him we live and breath and have our being"(Acts 17)

David says, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, there you are with me." There is no place where He does not reign, and the gates of Sheol cannot prevail against the ecclesia, His first fruits of Creation, "Behold, I am making all things new".

A 500 page fairy tale is still a fairy tale. The scriptures are clear. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" God will teach the wicked grace, forgiveness and righteousness through all He does, most of which we cannot yet understand, but, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." \o/

[marie glen]

:2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try

His word on it.Neither  should mere curiosity  be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare

and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father

about things.

   :thumbsup: :iagree: :cloud9:

Prayer may be difficult for some at times but it becomes all there is, because God becomes more and more into our lives with every thought of Him, helping through every obstacle – and, it seems to me, that without obstacles we never get to utilise the prayer that deeply touches the Lord; and without obstacles we pass out of this life empty. So, as strange as it may sound, overcoming the 'demons' with prayer will show them to have been blessings in regard to the fullness they have brought when this short life is over. Faith Faith Faith...

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. 'Test me in this', says the Lord Almighty, 'and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it'.

  Amen! :cloud9: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

There is no place in the scripture that says anything about people being tormented by devils/demons in hell or sheol or gehenna or hades. Milton and Dante were fiction writers. Their fiction was written out of the popular myths of their time and the recent historical myths of their cultures, sort of like fantasy writers today.

As far as the judgments of the age(s) to come, they are spoken of(imo) in metaphorical language,, but the nature of these judgments is made clear in a number of places, but especially in 1 Corinthians 15.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed(katargeo) is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Jesus has conquered death and sin and is enthroned by the Father for the purpose of subjecting all the adversaries "so that God may be all in all"...... not so that most can be eternally separated from God. If death is anulled then it is because sin is no more and whatever the second death is it will also be made void, when all things are reconciled and God is "all in all"(katargeo- .From kata and argeo; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively -- abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
Colossians 1 says

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

The reason it pleased the Father to make all His fulness dwell in Jesus was for the purpose of reconciling all things to Himself, again- so that He will be all in all.

Eph 1 speaks of that purpose as a "His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ"

With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Heaven is coming to earth. Heaven is the reign of God's love through Christ's kingdom. All things will be in "heaven" and heaven will be in all things when God is "all in all". Already, even now Paul says, "For in Him we live and breath and have our being"(Acts 17)

David says, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, there you are with me." There is no place where He does not reign, and the gates of Sheol cannot prevail against the ecclesia, His first fruits of Creation, "Behold, I am making all things new".

A 500 page fairy tale is still a fairy tale. The scriptures are clear. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" God will teach the wicked grace, forgiveness and righteousness through all He does, most of which we cannot yet understand, but, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." \o/

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:

...p.s.  "...2nd death, void, etc.."     ....gone. Came to mind when reading that.. :gsmile: also no more opposition.. yaay..

[CST]

Really, show me because I've never seen a dragon, I was of the impression they don't exist in reality.

I've seen a video about one:
Komodo Dragon - Epic Wildlife
https://youtu.be/WCjNQqRdv7U

I've never seen a leviathan, but I accept that they existed.  And its description sounds dragon-like to me:
Job 41 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+41&version=KJV
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Psalm 74:13-14 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+74&version=KJV
Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength:
thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces,
and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Isaiah 26:21-27:1 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+26&version=KJV
For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword
shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent,
even leviathan that crooked serpent;
and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Are you aware of any drugs that can cure blindness?

"The only person that comes of badly when Jesus struggles to heal is Jesus since God fails at nothing"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly, and Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary:

Mark 8 (from Aramaic, based on Younan)
22. And he came to Beth-Saida and they brought a blind man to him and were entreating him to touch him. 23. And he took the hand of the blind man and led him outside of the village. And he spat on his eyes and placed his hands (on him) and asked him what he saw. 24. He looked and said, "I see the sons of men resembling trees that are walking." 25. He again placed his hand upon his eyes. And he was restored and was seeing everything clearly.

Lk 8
26. And they journeyed and came to the land of the Gadarenes which is on the other side opposite of Galeela. 27. And when he went out onto land, a certain man from the medintha [city] caught up to him in whom had been a deewa [demon] for a long time. And he would not wear clothing and he would not dwell in a house, but in the cemetery. 28. And when he saw Yeshua, he cried out and fell down before him and in a loud voice said, "What have we to do with each other, Yeshua, the Son of the Most High Allaha? I beseech you, do not torment me." 29. For Yeshua was commanding to him-- to the unclean rukha [spirit]-- to go out from the man. For much time had passed since he was held captive by him. And he was bound with chains and he was restrained with bonds, but he would break his bonds and would be driven by the shada [demons] into the wilderness. 30. And Yeshua asked him,
"What is your name?"
He said to him, "Legion," because many deewa [demons] had entered into him. 31. And they were beseeching him that he would not command them to go to the abyss. 32. And there was there a herd of numerous swine that was feeding on the tuora [mountain], and they were beseeching him to permit them to enter into the swine. And he permitted them. 33. And the shada went out from the man and entered in the swine. And that whole herd rushed to a cliff and fell into the lake and they drowned. 34. And when the herders saw what happened, they fled and reported it in the medintha and in the villages. 35. And men came out to see what happened, and they came to Yeshua and found that man shadohy [whose shada] had departed, dressed and sober and sitting at the feet of Yeshua, and they were afraid. 36. And those who had seen (it) reported to them how he healed that possessed man.

"And Yeshua asked him, 'What is your name?'
Knowing a demon's name can assist in expelling it.

Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here:
There was a time when I didn't feel it was necessary to know the name of the demon, until one night. It was a cold and rainy night and we were on our way to pray for a friend, driving on the freeway. Suddenly my girl friend started to feel dizzy and nauseous. Then her legs started hurting so badly that they felt like they were being crushed. Then her head started hurting. I knew this was a demonic attack. I put my hand on her and commanded healing. She could feel power and heat come off my hand but the demon would override it, making it ineffective. Her vision started to go black and white and she was about to pass out. I prayed for ten minutes and nothing worked, not even a little. I told her to start worshiping. That didn't work. I told her to speak her identity in Christ over herself. That didn't work. I told her to plead the blood Christ over herself. That didn't work. I put my hand on her stomach and released joy on her. She felt joy come off my hand but the demon literally suppressed it.
This went on for 25 minutes and nothing was working. I felt completely powerless. I told infirmity and trauma to go and nothing worked. I said, "Demon leave," several times and there was no progress at all. Through this whole time, I'm asking God for help, but I heard nothing. I thought to myself, "Jesus calmed the storm by living from rest." So, I calmed down. Once I was at rest, I put my hand on her and spoke peace into her. She felt peace come off my hand, but the demon suppressed it. I didn't know what to do. I did everything that I had ever been taught through all my training in deliverance. I parked the car to the side of the road and sat there. All of sudden, I hear the Lord speak to me and say, "It is witchcraft and it was put on her." Immediately I turned and said, "Witchcraft — come out!" Instantly, she felt something move in her body. The demon left within 20 seconds and she was totally healed. ....

"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Perhaps psychiactric drugs failed to help Jersey.

Re:  M. Scott Peck, _Glimpses of the Devil: A Psychiatrist's Personal Accounts of Possession_ (2009)
https://www.amazon.com/Glimpses-Devil-Psychiatrists-Personal-Possession/dp/1439167265
Until the day Dr. Peck first met the young woman called Jersey, he did not believe in the devil. In fact, as a mature, highly experienced psychiatrist, he expected that this case would resolve his ongoing effort to prove to himself, as scientifically as possible, that there were absolutely no grounds for such beliefs. Yet what he discovered could not be explained away simply as madness or by any standard clinical diagnosis. Through a series of unanticipated events, Dr. Peck found himself thrust into the role of exorcist, and his desire to treat and help Jersey led him down a path of blurred boundaries between science and religion. Once there, he came face-to-face with deeply entrenched evil and ultimately witnessed the overwhelming healing power of love.

"if the Bible was clearer on demons we might have less reason to doubt they exist and therefore be less likely to abandon our fight against them. But we have abandoned our fight which suggests to me that given what Jesus said about them they'll have possessed the whole world by now. If they actually existed"

"given what Jesus said about them"
What are 2 remarks by Jesus you're thinking of?

Has the Arizona Deliverance Center abandoned its fight against demons?
https://www.hardcorechristianity.com/about-us/
Our Mission
Acts 26:18/Mark 7:27:  "To open the eyes of Christians to turn them from the deception of seducing spirits to the real truth of Christianity.  To turn them from the lies of the devil to the Truth of God, that they might understand that evil spirits have over-run the churches in North America & that Christians can be infected (not possessed) with spirits and need deliverance & that they can receive forgiveness of sins, physical healing & deliverance from demonic disease & mental illness & that they can receive an inheritance among those that are sanctified by Faith in Christ & understand that the Children's Bread of deliverance is for all saints."

Do you think those at Heart of the Father Ministries have abandoned their fight against demons?
https://www.heartofthefather.com/about/the-five-keys/
Every child of God carries the authority of the Father in the name of Jesus.  In Luke 1:71, we learn that in Christ, you have "salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us."  You do have enemies that have sought to rob you of your freedom.  In the authority of Jesus, you can take our stand against them through repentance, forgiveness, and renunciation.  Then the leader will declare victory by saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I command every spirit that (your name) has renounced to leave... right now." The command is an expression of faith that the enemy's power has been broken in our lives.

"the Bible... doesn't support the existence of demons"
Do you think the Bible supports the existence of unclean spirits?

23 Bible results for "unclean spirit."
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirit&qs_version=KJV

"I can still believe in what it represents however"
What do you think the Tartarus mentioned here represents?:

2 Peter 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/2_peter/2.htm
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

Nice a joke, well done.

I don't know what a Leviathan is meant to be so i can't know whether i'm supposed to believe they exist or not though whatever it is I suspect it and Satan are the same thing unless it's a real creature like the giant squid or something.

I think there are drugs that can treat certain types of blindness if given at the right time but I'm not absolutely sure. But if there aren't that doesn't mean such things are impossible. Remember the principle lesson of Jesus healing the blind: we are all blind unless He gives us sight.

Does the Bible say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it or is that extrabiblical demon lore?

I think I've already answered most of the rest of those questions.

[marie glen]

Jesus struggled to heal? That's not the impression I get when I read just the 1st chapter of Mark..

When He put mud on the man's eyes, etc. I'm sure it was as a lesson for the man.. or to help the man's faith, and, or is a lesson to all of us.. But I can't believe it was because Jesus struggled to be able to heal.. Now if you meant sought to increase a person's faith so they could be healed.. that I get. "Your faith has made you whole.." and the like..
:Peace2: God bless..

[MusicLover123]

I was thinking a struggle maybe because of the person's unbelief, that makes it hard to heal them...

[marie glen]

Amen, thanks..  :girlheart:

[DavidFord]

There is no place in the scripture that says anything about people being tormented by devils/demons in hell or sheol or gehenna or hades.

Does scripture say anything about people being tormented by:
devils while on earth?
heat in Sheol?
heat in Hades?
fire in Gehenna?

David says, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, there you are with me." There is no place where He does not reign, and the gates of Sheol cannot prevail against the ecclesia, His first fruits of Creation, "Behold, I am making all things new".

Yes, God is omnipresent. 
"There is no place where He does not reign"
Do you think God reigns over Las Vegas, which had a mass shooting last year?  Does God currently reign in the hearts of all humans now alive on earth?

[DavidFord]

Does the Bible say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it or is that extrabiblical demon lore?

The Bible doesn't "say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it."
I don't know how widespread Harmon's experiential knowledge is about the usefulness at times of knowing a demon's name.

Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here:  ....
I had another situation where the person was having bad lower abdominal pain. I prayed for two hours for healing and nothing worked. I commanded witchcraft, parasite, sickness and tons of other names to leave, but nothing would change. It was 12 midnight and I was tired. I felt bad because I couldn't pray anymore. I laid on the couch and then a word came into my head, "Death." I said, "Death come up." This person said, "It just moved." Then I got another word, "Sorcery." It moved again. All of a sudden I was full of energy and back in the game. I commanded "Death" to come up. I asked death how many demons there were. He said, "Five." I Said, "Name them." He said, "death, sorcery, sickness, word curses, and insomnia." I said to death, "Where do you want to go? The feet of Jesus or the abyss?" He said, "The feet of Jesus." (For some reason, demons choose that option the most.) I said, "I'll send you there if you kick out the four other demons that you are in charge of. If you do that, I'll send you there." The demon agreed. The first four demons came out easy and then I told death to go and the person was completely healed right then.
There were times when Jesus told the demon to leave without getting its name and the demon would go. Then there were times when Jesus would first call out the name of the demon and then it would it go. He would say, "Deaf and dumb spirit, come out," "Unclean spirit," or "Legion." The thing is, with some demons, having its name allows you to assert more of your will over it, breaking its power. But just because you get the name of a demon that doesn't mean it will come out easily every time. It will only come out easily sometimes. Other times it will take longer and in some cases, getting its name won't matter.

[DavidFord]

Jesus struggled to heal? That's not the impression I get when I read just the 1st chapter of Mark..
When He put mud on the man's eyes, etc. I'm sure it was as a lesson for the man.. or to help the man's faith, and, or is a lesson to all of us.. But I can't believe it was because Jesus struggled to be able to heal

Did Jesus heal the blindness of the 'I now see men walking like trees' guy on the:  1st attempt?  2nd attempt?
When Jesus told the demons bothering the guy that lived in the cemetery to leave, did the demons:
immediately obey Jesus and leave?  'drag their heels,' eventually negotiating with Jesus the terms of their leaving?

[DavidFord]

I was thinking a struggle maybe because of the person's unbelief, that makes it hard to heal them...

While in an unglorified human body, Jesus:
1)  benefited from angelic assistance
Matthew 4:11 (KJV)  Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Luke 22 (KJV)  42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.  43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.  44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly....

2)  was on at-least one occasion tired
John 4:6 (YLT)  and there was there a well of Jacob. Jesus therefore having been weary from the journeying, was sitting thus on the well; it was as it were the sixth hour;

3)  was on at-least two occasions hungry
Luke 4:2 (YLT)  forty days being tempted by the Devil, and he did not eat anything in those days, and they having been ended, he afterward hungered,
Matthew 21:18 (YLT)
and in the morning turning back to the city, he hungered,

4)  probably was thirsty while on the cross
John 19:28  (YLT) After this, Jesus knowing that all things now have been finished, that the Writing may be fulfilled, saith, `I thirst;'

"a struggle maybe because of the person's unbelief, that makes it hard to heal"
Jesus didn't let others' unbelief stop him from bringing God's healing to those people that'd been presented to Jesus for healing.

Mark 9 (KJV)
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

Matthew 17 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
14. And when they came towards the crowds, a man approached him and bowed down on his knees, 15. and said to him, "Mari [my lord], have mercy upon me, for my son-- who has a demon of lunacy and is badly afflicted-- many times he has fallen in the fire, and many times in water. 16. And I brought him to your talmida [students], and they were not able to heal him."
17. Yeshua answered and said,
"Oh generation which is crooked and not mahaymina [faithful]!
Until when must I be with you?
And until when must I endure you?
Bring him here to me."
18. And Yeshua rebuked it, and the shada [demon] went out from him. And the boy was healed from that moment. 19. Then the talmida drew near towards Yeshua (while he was) alone and said to him, "Why were we not able to heal him?" 20. Yeshua said to them,
"Because of your unbelief.
For amain I say to you that
if (you) had faith in you like a grain of mustard seed,
you could say to this tuora [mountain],
'move away from here,' and it would move.
And not a thing would be able to prevail over you.
21. But this kind does not go out except by fasting and by prayer."