Gehenna and Sheol in the Aramaic NT

[DavidFord]

Semiticism:  open + mouth = speak:  Eph 6:19, Rev 13:6

search of YLT for:  open mouth
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=open+mouth&qs_version=YLT&limit=500

Ephesians 6:19 and in behalf of me, that to me may be given a word in the opening of my mouth, in freedom, to make known the secret of the good news,

Revelation 13:6 and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,

[DavidFord]

Semiticism:  frequent casus pendens; in Rev 2:26, 3:12, 3:21

Does anyone here believe that John was originally composed in Greek?

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Casus pendens.  Although casus pendens (a common technical term in grammar taken from the Latin for "a hanging case") is used with effect in classical Greek, the construction is much more frequent in Hebrew and Aramaic than in the koine.  A typical example is Matthew 6:4, kai ho pater sou ho blepon en to krypto autos adoposei soi.  This would be expressed idiomatically in Hebrew as "And your Father who sees in secret, he will repay you."  This is an unusually complicated way of saying "And your Father who sees in secret will repay you" (see GNB, NIV, NEB).  While such constructions cannot be described as uniquely Semitic, their preponderance in the sayings of Jesus supports the view that a translation Greek tradition is to be found there.

Revelation 2:26 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+2%3A26&version=DLNT;YLT
And the one overcoming
and the one keeping My works until the end—
I will give him authority over the nations.

Revelation 3:12 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+3%3A12&version=DLNT;YLT
The one overcoming—
I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,
and he will never go outside again.

Revelation 3:21 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%203%3A21&version=DLNT;YLT
He who is overcoming --
I will give to him to sit with me in my throne,
as I also did overcome
and did sit down with my Father in His throne.

Genesis 3:12 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen+3%3A12&version=YLT
and the man saith,
`The woman whom Thou didst place with me --
she hath given to me of the tree --
and I do eat.'

Genesis 15:4 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen+15%3A4&version=YLT
And lo, the word of Jehovah [is] unto him, saying,
`This [one] doth not heir thee;
but he who cometh out from thy bowels,
he doth heir thee;'

Daniel 3:22 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan+3%3A22&version=YLT
Therefore, because that the word of the king is urgent,
and the furnace heated exceedingly,
those men who have taken up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego --
killed them hath the spark of the fire.

James 1:26 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james+1%3A26&version=DLNT;YLT
If any one doth think to be religious among you,
not bridling his tongue,
but deceiving his heart,
of this one vain [is] the religion;

1 Cor 2:15 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+2%3A15&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things,
yet he himself is judged of no man.

Acts 17:23 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017%3A23&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
For as I passed by,
and beheld your devotions,
I found an altar with this inscription,
To The Unknown God.
Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship,
him declare I unto you.

1 John 2:27 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+john+2%3A27&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
and you,
the anointing that ye did receive from him,
in you it doth remain,
and ye have no need that any one may teach you,
but as the same anointing doth teach you concerning all,
and is true,
and is not a lie,
and even as was taught you,
ye shall remain in him.

Matthew 6:4 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+6%3A4&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
That thine alms may be in secret:
and thy Father which seeth in secret
himself shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 7:13 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+7%3A13&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
`Go ye in through the strait gate,
because wide [is] the gate,
and broad the way
that is leading to the destruction,
and many are those going in through it;

Matthew 15:19-20 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+15%3A19-20&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
for out of the heart come forth
evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms,
thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings:
these are the things defiling the man;
but to eat with unwashen hands
doth not defile the man.'

Matthew 26:23 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A23+&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
And he answering said,
`He who did dip with me the hand in the dish,
he will deliver me up;

C.F. Burney, _The Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel_ (1922), 176pp.  On 6-7, from
https://archive.org/stream/aramaicoriginoff00burnrich/aramaicoriginoff00burnrich_djvu.txt
So with other stylistic peculiarities of the Gospel, such as the
frequent use of _Casus pendens_. This, Prof. Moulton tells us, 'is
one of the easiest of anacolutha, as much at home in English
as in Greek ' (_NTG_.^3, i, p. 69). We recognize the truth of this
statement as regards colloquial English, especially among the
semi-educated. We might be talking to a groom, and it would
be natural for him to say, 'The gentleman who used to ride that
horse — he lost his arm in the war.' Probably at times we use
the same kind of anacoluthon ourselves in ordinary conversation ;
but we do not use it in writing a book or article which we hope
may be worthy to rank as literature. Nor, if we take the whole
New Testament as a fair specimen of literature written in the ... [koine],
do we find as a rule more than very occasional instances of the
usage. In the Fourth Gospel, however, it is remarkably frequent;
and it is reasonable to seek some better reason than the
supposition that the writer of the finest piece of literature in the New
Testament was more than ordinarily infected with colloquialism.
Now there _is_ a literature in which both the usages which we
have been noticing— parataxis and _Casus pendens_— are not the
marks of lack of education but common phenomena of the best
writing style, namely, the literature of Semitic-speaking peoples.
If, then, these two characteristics of the style of the Fourth Gospel,
only selected by way of example, fit in with numerous other
characteristics which point to translation from a Semitic language,
their evidence as part of our proof that the Gospel is such a
translation is not in the slightest degree invalidated by the fact
that parallels can be adduced from the non-literary and ephemeral
type of document which we find represented in the papyri.

On 63-65:
Casus pendens.
It is characteristic of Hebrew and Aramaic to simplify the
construction of a sentence, and at the same time to gain emphasis,
by reinforcing the subject by a Personal Pronoun. Such reinforcement
is specially favoured if the subject happens to be further
defined by a relative clause, since otherwise the sentence would—
to the Semitic ear— appear involved and overweighted. The same
principle is also adopted with the object, when this, for the sake of
emphasis, is brought to the beginning of the sentence ; and other
oblique cases may be similarly treated. Examples in Hebrew are —
Gen. 3^12, 'The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave
me (...) of the tree and I did eat'; Gen. 15^4, 'But one
that shall come out of thine own bowels, he shall be thine heir'
(...) ; Gen. 24^7, 'Yahweh, the God of heaven, who took me
from my father's house, &c., He shall send (...) His angel
before thee' ; Deut. 13^1, 'All the word that I command you, it shall
ye observe to do' (...); Ezek. 18^24, 'In his trespass that
he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them
shall he die' (...). See further, Driver, _Tenses_, § 123 ... _Obs_.

Similarly in Aramaic— Dan. 2^27,28, 'Thou, O king, the king of kings,
to whom the God of heaven gave, &c., thou art that head of gold'
(...); Dan. 3^22 'Those men that took up
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, the flame of the fire slew
them' (...); Dan. 4^17-19, 'The tree that thou
sawest, &c., it is thou, O king' (...); Ezr. 5^17, 'And
moreover, the vessels of the house of God, &c., them did Cyrus
the king take out (...) of the temple of Babylon';
Ezr. 7^24, 'All priests and Levites, &c., it shall not be lawful to
impose tribute, &c., upon them' (...); Ezra 7^26, 'Every one
that will not perform the law of thy God and the law of the king,
let judgement diligently be executed upon him' (...).

This reinforcement of a _Casus pendens_ by the Pronoun is a
marked characteristic of the Fourth Gospel. We may note the
following illustrations:
1^12....
1^18....
1^33....
3^26....
3^32.... 
5^11....
5^19....
5^36....
5^37....
5^38....
6^39....
6^46....
7^18....
8^26....
10^1....
10^25....
12^48....
12^49....
14^12....
14^13....
14^21....
14^26....
15^2....
15^5....
17^2....
17^24....
18^11....

Against these 27 instances in Jn. we can only set 11 in
Mt. (4^16, 13^20,22,23,38, 15^11, 19^28, 21^42, 24^13, 25^29, 26^23),
4 in Mk. (6^16, 7^20, 12^10, 13^11), and 6 in Lk. (8^14,15, 12^48, 20^17, 21^6, 23^50-52); and of these Mt. 4^16 and Mt. 21^42 = Mk. 12^10 = Lk. 20^17 are O.T. quotations.

Of course it cannot be claimed that the use of Casus pendens
is specifically a Semitism, since— to go no farther— it is a familiar
colloquialism in English. Prof Moulton remarks that 'it is one
of the easiest of anacolutha, as much at home in English as in
Greek' (_NTG._^3, i, p. 69). The fact which concerns us is the
remarkable frequency of its occurrence in Jn. as compared with
the Synoptists. If Lk., for example, is a fair specimen of ... [koine]
Greek, why should we find that a construction which occurs there
but 6 times is employed in Jn. with six times the frequency? An
adequate answer is forthcoming in the assumption that a common
Aramaic construction has been exactly reproduced in translation.

[marie glen]

Semiticism:  frequent casus pendens; in Rev 2:26, 3:12, 3:21

Does anyone here believe that John was originally composed in Greek?

Your post makes sense.. I wonder how, specifically, any verses being originally penned in the Hebraic Aramaic, confirms - more openly - the UR/CU gospel of God? An example - speaking of the gospel account of John -
    verse John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.. signifying by what death He was about to die.

..Of course, any of our friends, who do not yet believe, if we give them a bible to read, we want one which is clear and simple to be read by them.. (That's why when I cross paths with a KJ only person, I mean not even NKJ is considered ok by them.. I always think, dude, you may be shutting the book for so many new readers! Crazy...!

Ahh, the Glory of the message! ..Can ring out so loud and clear, in any language at all.. if the speaker of the message knows the message, that is!!  :friendstu:
(I guess that's the job / service we are assigned? make disciples/spread the news of the true glad tidings..) :banana:

[DavidFord]

I wonder how, specifically, any verses being originally penned in the Hebraic Aramaic, confirms - more openly - the UR/CU gospel of God?

I dunno-- yet.  What are some verses advanced by never-ending-torture proponents in support of their position?  What are some verses advanced by annihilationists in support of their position?

[marie glen]

Amen! Those always fall apart...  :thumbsup:

:Chinscratch: I'll be keeping my eyes open for verses..

[MusicLover123]

I wonder how, specifically, any verses being originally penned in the Hebraic Aramaic, confirms - more openly - the UR/CU gospel of God?

I dunno-- yet.  What are some verses advanced by never-ending-torture proponents in support of their position?  What are some verses advanced by annihilationists in support of their position?

For the first one, bad translations basically. For the second one, bad translations, and also not putting and using all of the verses. They usually only look at certain verses, and any other verse, in their mind, somehow "contradicts" it. Then attempt to explain it away, in the fashion of what doctrines they cling to.

Basically, both camps try to limit God in what He is able, and has said for Himself to do.

[DavidFord]

For the first one, bad translations basically. For the second one, bad translations, and also not putting and using all of the verses. They usually only look at certain verses, and any other verse, in their mind, somehow "contradicts" it. Then attempt to explain it away, in the fashion of what doctrines they cling to.
Basically, both camps try to limit God in what He is able, and has said for Himself to do.

What are 1 or 2 "bad translations" utilized by:
never-ending-torture proponents? 
annihilationists?

[MusicLover123]

I would say mainly KJV, especially with the KJV only people. Though the word hell is becoming less and less ib modern translations, they still put the word eternal in there. A couple easier to read translations like the NIV, ESV, NASB, etc. And, don't forget the paraphrased versions like the Message. That is probably one of the worst versions of Scripture I have ever read. Take a look at this hilarious rendition.

Proverbs 15 MSG
14An intelligent person is always eager to take in more truth;
fools feed on fast-food fads and fancies.

Psalm 14
4Don't they know anything,
all these impostors?
Don't they know
they can't get away with this—
Treating people like a fast-food meal
over which they're too busy to pray?

Not sure about this, but I heard a person who did one paraphrased version of the Bible started getting demonic attacks after completing it.

[DavidFord]

I would say mainly KJV, especially with the KJV only people.

According to the KJV, it seems to me hell will be killed/ended/destroyed:
hell in KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=hell&limit=500
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.

Also, according to the KJV, it seems to me that at least 1 person escaped from hell:
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake
of the resurrection of Christ,
that his soul was not left in hell,
neither his flesh did see corruption.

Not sure about this, but I heard a person who did one paraphrased version of the Bible started getting demonic attacks after completing it.

IIRC, Mel Gibson said he got hit hard by the kingdom of darkness after doing the movie "The Passion of the Christ."  Beth Moore says she's gotten a beating after writing some of her books.

[MusicLover123]

Oh, just to clarify. I am starting to really appreciate the KJV in terms of the poetic aspect of it. There are passages that I much prefer how it flows compared to a lot of other translations. This is really apparent for me in the Psalms, and especially Psalm 23.

Eventually I will try to find and read "In awe of thy word." Forget the author, but it is probably free online somewhere.

I actually used to avoid the KJV, for some reason. Now it is one of my favorite translations. Not in terms of accuracy, but how it "flows" of you know what I mean. Definitely not an KJV only person, but there is something special about it.

Oh, and they would still call the Lake of fire "hell" and say it is for ever and ever. Which absolutely makes no sense, how can there be 2 eternities.

[DavidFord]

Oh, just to clarify. I am starting to really appreciate the KJV in terms of the poetic aspect of it. There are passages that I much prefer how it flows compared to a lot of other translations. This is really apparent for me in the Psalms, and especially Psalm 23.
Eventually I will try to find and read "In awe of thy word." Forget the author, but it is probably free online somewhere.
I actually used to avoid the KJV, for some reason. Now it is one of my favorite translations. Not in terms of accuracy, but how it "flows" of you know what I mean. Definitely not an KJV only person, but there is something special about it.

I suspect that a lot of the poetic aspects of the KJV come from it closely adhering to the NT Greek and OT Hebrew construction of sentences, with the NT Greek construction of sentences often closely adhering to an underlying Aramaic construction of sentences.

[marie glen]

For the first one, bad translations basically. For the second one, bad translations, and also not putting and using all of the verses. They usually only look at certain verses, and any other verse, in their mind, somehow "contradicts" it. Then attempt to explain it away, in the fashion of what doctrines they cling to.
Basically, both camps try to limit God in what He is able, and has said for Himself to do.

What are 1 or 2 "bad translations" utilized by:
never-ending-torture proponents? 
annihilationists?

As you also mentioned.. the verse which says he'll will be cast into the log.. (oops! :laughing7: dang phone) if I remember right it more likely should read - death and the grave are thrown to the lof, the second death. I've never understood how people miss that what is being believed is hell is being cast into hell. And I don't think many of us think about that aspect of the verse. That death and the grave are going there. What does that mean?

note: on Rev 19 the beast and false prophet at Jesus return are cast there. I believe those two are not persons but an influence and an institution of man active at the time of Jesus' return.. cast to the lof, 2nd death.

[DavidFord]

Semitism:  excessive use of 'and'   

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Coordination of clauses.  In classical Greek, sentences usually contained one main verb, and all other verbs were subordinated in adverbial clauses of one kind or another.  Hebrew, on the other hand, tended to place main verbs side by side, joining them together with a simple conjunction (the Hebrew waw "and").  This is known as parataxis, from the Greek verb paratasso "I set side by side."  In koine Greek the construction is not uncommon, and this alone has been though to explain its frequency in the New Testament.  But the constantly recurring "and" (Greek kai) of the Gospels is certainly an overstraining of Greek literary usage.  In the Gospels this type of construction is most characteristic of Mark, who has only a single instance of a longer Greek sentence with subordinating participles (see 5:25-27).  A typical example of Mark's style is found in 10:33-34, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and (kai) the Son of Man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and (kai) they will condemn him to death, and (kai) they will deliver him up to the Gentiles. And (kai) they will mock him and (kai) spit upon him and (kai) scourge him and (kai) kill him, and (kai) three days later he will rise again."  Here a more typical Greek style would, perhaps, have subordinated one or more of these clauses by means of participles or relative clauses.  Translations such as the KJV and RSV reflect the Semitic style and are stylistically awkward in English; but other English translations, recognizing the Semitic idiom involved, restructure the grammar slightly to produce more acceptable English (see GNB, NIV, JB, NEB).

Rev 1:11 (KJV)
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,
the first and the last:
and, What thou seest,
write in a book,
and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
unto Ephesus,
and unto Smyrna,
and unto Pergamos,
and unto Thyatira,
and unto Sardis,
and unto Philadelphia,
and unto Laodicea.

Rev 2:2-3 (KJV)
I know thy works,
and thy labour,
and thy patience,
and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles,
and are not,
and hast found them liars:
And hast borne,
and hast patience,
and for my name's sake hast laboured,
and hast not fainted.

Rev 2:9 (KJV)
I know thy works,
and tribulation,
and poverty,
(but thou art rich)
and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews,
and are not,
but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:19 (KJV)
I know thy works,
and charity,
and service,
and faith,
and thy patience,
and thy works;
and the last to be more than the first.

Rev 3:17 (KJV)
Because thou sayest,
I am rich,
and increased with goods,
and have need of nothing;
and knowest not that thou art wretched,
and miserable,
and poor,
and blind,
and naked:

Rev 4:7 (KJV)
And the first beast was like a lion,
and the second beast like a calf,
and the third beast had a face as a man,
and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Rev 5:9-13 (KJV)
9 And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God
by thy blood out of every kindred,
and tongue,
and people,
and nation; ....
12 Saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain
to receive power,
and riches,
and wisdom,
and strength,
and honour,
and glory,
and blessing.
13 And every creature
which is in heaven,
and on the earth,
and under the earth,
and such as are in the sea,
and all that are in them, heard I saying,
Blessing,
and honour,
and glory,
and power,
be unto him that sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb
for ever and ever.

Revelation 6:8 (KJV)
And I looked, and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.
And power was given unto them
over the fourth part of the earth,
to kill with sword,
and with hunger,
and with death,
and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 6:15 (KJV)
And the kings of the earth,
and the great men,
and the rich men,
and the chief captains,
and the mighty men,
and every bondman,
and every free man,
hid themselves in the dens
and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 7:9, 12 (KJV) [cf. Rev 10:11, 11:9, 13:7, 17:15]
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people,
and tongues,
stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ....
12 Saying, Amen:
Blessing,
and glory,
and wisdom,
and thanksgiving,
and honour,
and power,
and might,
be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 8:5 King James Version (KJV) [cf. Rev 11:19, 16:18]
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.

Revelation 9:20 (KJV)
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold,
and silver,
and brass,
and stone,
and of wood:
which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 10:6 (KJV)
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever,
who created heaven,
and the things that therein are,
and the earth,
and the things that therein are,
and the sea,
and the things which are therein,
that there should be time no longer:

Revelation 18
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,  ....
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; ....

Revelation 19:1, 18 (KJV)
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:  ....
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[CST]

OK, try this rather challenging (particularly if taken entirely literally) passage:

'Now when the Pharisees gathered together to him, with some of the scribes, who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands defiled, that is, unwashed. And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?"'

'And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men."'

'And he called the people to him again, and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)' (Mark 7:1,2, 6-8, 14,15, 17-19)

Apart from the fact the explanation of the parable doesn't sound that different from the parable. Jesus is upbraiding the Pharisees on particular aspects of their behaviour, like putting certain, rather unqualified rules over proper moral conduct. Given that it seem a bit strained that Mark puts in a footnote saying that Jesus declared all foods clean when the topic of the discussion was how to eat not what to eat, but it made the Bible so it must be true.

But there's a catch, I knew if I touch something filthy and then immediately go off and eat with my hands, there's a good chance I'll get sick. So on balance what Jesus says is actually wrong and what the Pharisees advocate is actually correct, lucky, lucky Pharisees because they're not actually advocating it for its health benefit but to control people which is why Jesus attacks it. Jesus is wrong but only because I know something that is beyond the scope of the discussion that was going on at the time. Obviously, Jesus isn't actually wrong and His criticism of the Pharisees is of course correct even though we now know His facts aren't.

I have this trouble with the Bible sometimes, when struggle to even agree with Jesus and have to remember not to take what He said beyond what He actually meant, which might be less than the absolutely literal meaning, literal and allegorical are not the only two choices we have and you have to take a lot more care than that.

I figure it's taken for granted if i touch something unclean or disgusting, i know enough to wash my j
hands afterwards, let alone before eating with those hands. but is it natural for folks to always wash their hands before eating something? Only if obsessive compulsive. Which overdoing can actually decrease ones immunity. Most folks do likely wash their hands before preparing food for others, as just good manners. And after work, especially before eating.. But do we need a law handed out from other humans concerning it? Or it to be some sort of strange ritual - metaphor, wash your hands ye sinners! Ritual of self glorying..? (Says see I wash my hands all the time, and you don't! No matter that I rob widow's and orphans or anything!)

So again, imo, Jesus is right. Did the Old Testament have hand washing in its list of things? I think yes, for the priests before entering the Tabernacle or temple.. Which washing, I have to think in this instance does not have to do with eating with unwashed hands.. anyway. But as you said a rule to hold over others..

:) Cheers, Marie. Although what is the root of good manners? How long have those 'manners' been so and why?

[sheila]

James 4;8 Comenear to God andHewill come neartoyou,wash your hands ye sinners[of evilworks/do what they say,not whatthey do]

  their hearts are far off. and purify your hearts.

His disciples had clean hands[no evil works]..the religious leaders had outwardly appearing clean hands[notinwardly spiritually]

like dead mens bones in white-washed graves.  First wash the inside of the cup.

all about JUDGING BY OUTWARD APPEARANCES.. :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen.. :thumbsup:

:Chinscratch: and shows the stark difference between fruit (manners/courtesy) versus as a law/rule, which fruit is not love, etc.. but dislike, judging.. and I'm thinking even worse as in the words of the Lord, he called them vipers and the like, and they did plot and put to death an innocent man out of envy.. ...all of life is a metaphor..

[marie glen]

paraphrased anyway  ..alas that great city.. fallen, fallen.. come birds of prey to Armageddon supper..
[\quote]

...again fruit.. stark contrast between the tree of life and the tree of good and evil (contrast of Perfection w/ imperfection,opposite of Life..

[DavidFord]

Semiticism:   redundant prepositions

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Redundant use of the preposition.  A characteristic feature of Semitic usage is the repetition of a preposition before every noun of a series which it governs.  Such a construction is intolerable in literary Greek.  Semitic repetition occurs no less than eleven times in Mark alone (see, for example, 3:7-8, 6:56, 11:1).  It is interesting to see the way in which different English translations treat redundant prepositions.  Some repeat the preposition each time it occurs in a series, as in Mark 3:7-8 (see KJV, RSV); others translate only the initial preposition, a practice which is more in keeping with the English idiom (see NIV, JB, NEB).

Mark 3:7-8 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+3%3A7-8+&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
And Jesus withdrew with his disciples unto the sea, and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea and beyond the Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon -- a great multitude -- having heard how great things he was doing, came unto him.

Mark 6:56
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/6-56.htm
And wherever He entered into villages or into cities or into fields, in the marketplaces they were laying the ailing....

Rev 1:11 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+1%3A11+&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-11.htm
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,
the first and the last:
and, What thou seest,
write in a book,
and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
unto Ephesus,
and unto Smyrna,
and unto Pergamos,
and unto Thyatira,
and unto Sardis,
and unto Philadelphia,
and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 6:8 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+6%3A8+&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/6-8.htm
And I looked, and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.
And power was given unto them
over the fourth part of the earth,
to kill with sword,
and with hunger,
and with death,
and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:21
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9-21.htm
And not they repented of the murders of them nor of the sorceries of them nor of the sexual immorality of them nor of the thefts of them

For the Revelation verses below, I need to ask around re: just how strongly the "of"s are implied by the Greek.
Revelation 18:12-13 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2018%20&version=YLT;KJV;DLNT
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/18-12.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/18-13.htm
cargo _of_ gold and _of_ silver and _of_ precious stone and _of_ pearls, and _of_ fine-linen and _of_ purple and _of_ silk and _of_ scarlet, and everything made-of-citron wood, and every object made-of-ivory, and every object from very-precious wood and brass and iron and marble,
and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense, and wine and olive-oil and fine-flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and _of_ horses and _of_ carriages, and _of_ bodies— even souls _of_ people.

Revelation 18:12 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) ....the burden of gold, and of silver and of precious stones, and of pearls; and of fine linen, and of purple, and of silk and scarlet; and of every aromatic wood, and every vessel of elephant's-tooth [i.e. tusk i.e. ivory], and every vessel of wood of great price, and of brass and of iron and of marble;
Revelation 18:13
(Etheridge) and cinnamon and omomun [Spikenard. Gr. text, - which the Syr. retains untranslated.] [er, Crawford has a different word] and perfumes, and ointment and frankincense and wine and oil, and fine meal, and wheat, and cattle, and slaves, and horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

Revelation 19:18 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19%3A18&version=YLT;KJV;DLNT
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/19-18.htm
in order that you may eat _the_ flesh _of_ kings, and _the_ flesh _of_ commanders, and _the_ flesh _of_ powerful _ones_, and _the_ flesh _of_ horses and _of_ the _ones_ sitting on them, and _the_ flesh _of_ everyone— both free and slaves, both small and great".

Revelation 19:18 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of chiefs of thousands, and the flesh of heroes [i.e. valiant men], and the flesh of horses and them who sit upon them, and the flesh of all the sons of liberty [i.e. the free-born] and of the slaves, and of the small and of the great.

preposition
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preposition
Prepositions show direction, location, or time, or introduce an object. They are usually followed by an object—a noun, noun phrase, or pronoun. The most common prepositions are little and very common:
at, by, for, from, in, of, on, to, with
Also common are:
about, above, across, after, against, along, among, around, because of, before, behind, below, beneath, beside, between, close to, down, during, except, inside, instead of, into, like, near, off, on top of, onto, out of, outside, over, past, since, through, toward, under, until, up, upon, within, without
Prepositions typically show how the noun, noun phrase, or pronoun is related to another word in the sentence.
a friend _of_ mine
the dress _with_ the stripes
hit _by_ a ball
no one _except_ me

[DavidFord]

3 more doublings

Revelation 5:11 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+5%3A11&version=YLT;KJV;DLNT
And I saw, and I heard _the_ voice _of_ many angels around the throne, and _of_ the living-creatures, and _of_ the elders- and the number _of_ them was myriads _of_ myriads, and thousands _of_ thousands-

I added that to

Semiticism:  intensifying repetition:  Rev 17:6, Rev 5:11, Mark 4:41, Luke 22:15

Revelation 9:16 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%209%3A16&version=DLNT;YLT
and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

[marie glen]

I think it sounds better w/o all the ands.. :thumbsup: But thankfully, we can still get the gist of it, even with the ands.. :cloud9:

[DavidFord]

I think it sounds better w/o all the ands.. :thumbsup: But thankfully, we can still get the gist of it, even with the ands.. :cloud9:

It seems that more-polished Greek (just like more-polished English) lacks the excessive 'and's and excessive prepositions present in Aramaic.

[DavidFord]

Semiticism:  future indicative used to express commands

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Future indicative used as an imperative.  The Hebrew verb form most closely corresponding to the Greek future indicative is often used to express commands.  This construction has probably influenced a passage like Mark 9:35, "If anyone wants to be first, _he shall be_ last of all."  In this passage greater emphasis is given by taking the future _he shall be_ as an imperative, as in NIV, "Whoever wants to be first, _he must be_ the very last," (see also GNB, JB, NEB, RSV).  The same can be said for the use of the future indicative in Luke 1:13, "And _you shall call_ his name John," which GNB renders, "_You are to_ name him John."  Compare also Matthew 19:18-19 in the various translations.

you _must_ rest longer; you _must not_ harm plants
DLNT
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=shall&qs_version=DLNT&limit=500
Revelation 6:11 And a white robe was given to them, to each one. And it was told to them that they shall rest a short time longer, until also the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers going to be killed as also they, may be completed.
Revelation 9:4 And it was told to them that they shall not harm the grass of the land, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

[DavidFord]

Semiticism:  in the eyes of, i.e. in the sight of

C.F. Burney, _The Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel_ (1922), 176pp.  On 6-7, from
https://archive.org/stream/aramaicoriginoff00burnrich/aramaicoriginoff00burnrich_djvu.txt
5. The expression ἐνώπιον is peculiarly characteristic of Lk.
(23 times), Acts (13 times), and Apoc. which is marked by an
Hebraic style (34 times).  It is derived from LXX where it is
extremely common (some hundreds of occurrences), and ordinarily
represents Hebrew ... 'before' (lit. 'to the face of'), or ...
'in the sight of' (lit. 'to the eyes of').  ἐνώπιον is only found once
in Jn. (20^30), and is unused in Mt. and Mk.  In these Gospels we
find ..., which also occurs in Lk.

ἔναντι (Lk. 1^8, Acts 7^10, 8^21), ἐναντίον (Lk. 1^6, 20^26, 24^19, Acts 7^10, 8^32),
exclusively Lucan in N.T., are both very common in LXX, where
they ordinarily render ... 'in the sight of' (lit. 'in the eyes of'),
i.e. 'in the _opinion_ of'.  Hebrew always observes a distinction
between ... 'in the (physical) sight of', and ... 'in the (mental)
sight of'. The same distinction may be noticed for the most part
in the N. T. use of ἐνώπιον and ἐναντίον.
In place of the distinctively Hebraic expressions ..., ..., ...,
Aramaic uses ... 'before', 'in front of'.

Strong's Concordance 1799. enópios
https://biblehub.com/greek/1799.htm
enópios: in sight of, before
Original Word: ἐνώπιον
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: enópios
Phonetic Spelling: (en-o'-pee-on)
Definition: in sight of, before
Usage: before the face of, in the presence of, in the eyes of.
HELPS Word-studies
1799 enṓpion – literally, "in the eye (of God)," used for how all things happen under God's watch, i.e. in keeping with His plan built on His absolute knowledge.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from en and óps (the eye, face)
Definition
in sight of, before
NASB Translation
before (46), front (1), presence (20), sight (22)

Strong's Concordance 1726. enantion
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/1726.htm
enantion: before, in the presence of.
Original Word: ἐναντίον
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: enantion
Phonetic Spelling: (en-an-tee'-on)
Definition: before, in the presence of
Usage: before, in the presence of, in the eyes of.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
neut. of enantios, used as preposition and adverb
Definition
before, in the presence of.

enópios
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_1799.htm
Romans 3:20 Adv
NAS: will be justified in His sight; for through
Romans 12:17 Adv
KJV: things honest in the sight of all
Romans 14:22 Adv
NAS: as your own conviction before God.

1 Corinthians 1:29 Adv
NAS: man may boast before God.
2 Corinthians 4:2 Adv
KJV: man's conscience in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 7:12 Adv
NAS: might be made known to you in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 8:21 Adv
NAS: not only in the sight of the Lord,
2 Corinthians 8:21 Adv
NAS: but also in the sight of men.

Galatians 1:20 Adv
NAS: to you, I assure you before God

1 Timothy 2:3 Adv
NAS: and acceptable in the sight of God
1 Timothy 5:4 Adv
NAS: is acceptable in the sight of God.
1 Timothy 5:20 Adv
NAS: rebuke in the presence of all,
1 Timothy 5:21 Adv
NAS: I solemnly charge you in the presence of God
1 Timothy 6:12 Adv
NAS: confession in the presence of many
1 Timothy 6:13 Adv
KJV: thee charge in the sight of God, who
2 Timothy 2:14 Adv
KJV: charging [them] before the Lord
2 Timothy 4:1 Adv
NAS: I solemnly charge [you] in the presence of God

Hebrews 4:13 Adv
NAS: hidden from His sight, but all things
Hebrews 13:21 Adv
NAS: in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through

James 4:10 Adv
KJV: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord,

1 Peter 3:4 Adv
NAS: which is precious in the sight of God.

1 John 3:22 Adv
NAS: the things that are pleasing in His sight.
3 John 1:6 Adv
KJV: of thy charity before the church: whom

Revelation 1:4 Adv
NAS: Spirits who are before His throne,
Revelation 2:14 Adv
NAS: a stumbling block before the sons
Revelation 3:2 Adv
NAS: completed in the sight of My God.
Revelation 3:5 Adv
KJV: his name before my Father,
Revelation 3:5 Adv
NAS: My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 3:8 Adv
KJV: behold, I have set before thee an open
Revelation 3:9 Adv
KJV: and worship before thy feet,
Revelation 4:5 Adv
INT: of fire burning before the throne
Revelation 4:6 Adv
NAS: and before the throne
Revelation 4:10 Adv
NAS: will fall down before Him who sits
Revelation 4:10 Adv
NAS: their crowns before the throne,

Revelation 5:8 Adv
KJV: fell down before the Lamb,
Revelation 7:9 Adv
NAS: standing before the throne
Revelation 7:9 Adv
KJV: and before the Lamb,
Revelation 7:11 Adv
NAS: on their faces before the throne
Revelation 7:15 Adv
NAS: reason, they are before the throne
Revelation 8:2 Adv
KJV: which stood before God; and
Revelation 8:3 Adv
KJV: altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 8:4 Adv
KJV: ascended up before God
Revelation 9:13 Adv
KJV: altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:4 Adv
KJV: standing before the God
Revelation 11:16 Adv
NAS: on their thrones before God,
Revelation 12:4 Adv
INT: dragon stands before the woman
Revelation 12:10 Adv
KJV: accused them before our God
Revelation 13:12 Adv
KJV: of the first beast before him, and
Revelation 13:13 Adv
KJV: on the earth in the sight of men,
Revelation 13:14 Adv
KJV: to do in the sight of the beast;
Revelation 14:3 Adv
KJV: a new song before the throne, and
Revelation 14:3 Adv
KJV: and before the four
Revelation 14:5 Adv
KJV: without fault before the throne
Revelation 14:10 Adv
KJV: brimstone in the presence of the holy
Revelation 14:10 Adv
KJV: and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 15:4 Adv
KJV: and worship before thee; for
Revelation 16:19 Adv
KJV: came in remembrance before God,
Revelation 19:20 Adv
KJV: that wrought miracles before him, with
Revelation 20:12 Adv
KJV: great, stand before God; and

[DavidFord]

A critical and exegetical commentary on the Revelation of St. John
https://archive.org/stream/acriticalandexeg01charuoft/acriticalandexeg01charuoft_djvu.txt
I will now give a list of the chief Hebraisms in the Apocalypse
which are sufficient to prove that it is more Hebraic than the
LXX itself.

(i.) The Greek text needs at times to be translated into Hebrew
in order to discover its meaning and render it correctly in English.
.... We have here a frequent Hebrew idiom which
cannot be explained from vernacular Greek and which, not
having been recognized, has led to mistranslations of the text
in every version of the Apocalypse down to the present day.
.... Long after I had discovered these Hebraisms and recognized the necessity
of translating them idiomatically as such, I found that several of the versions
had recovered the right rendering purely from the consciousness of the
translators that the Greek text could not be taken literally as it stood.

Two of the Greek uncials, in fact, and very many of the cursives, have
actually altered the Greek so that it represents idiomatically the Hebrew
idiom.   ....

"It is," writes Driver (Hebrew Tenses, 163), "a common
custom with Hebrew writers, after employing a participle or
infinitive, to change the construction, and if they wish to subjoin
other verbs, which logically should be in the participle or
infinitive as well, to pass to the use of the finite verb."  Here
we have the explanation of a dozen of passages in our author,
which have been generally mistranslated in all the versions.
In a few cases they are rightly translated, and then only
through deliberate emendation of the text.

The idiom of a participle continued by a finite verb is
rendered literally into Greek in the LXX in .... But it is rendered
literally comparatively seldom in the LXX, whereas in our text it
occurs ten times and most probably eleven originally, as we
shall see presently.  .... The failure to recognize this idiom in... has led most
scholars to mispunctuate the text....
Thus we discover the strange fact that in the above passages many of the
ancient versions represent idiomatically and accurately the thought of John,
where all but universally the modern versions do neither. The modern editions
of these versions frequently punctuate wrongly the above passages, and
consequently mislead the student.

....These passages are treated by modern editors as anacoloutha.  They are,
however, nothing of the kind : they are normal constructions in the grammar
of the Apocalypse.  Sometimes editors have sought to get over difficulties
they fail to understand by mispunctuating the text.

[DavidFord]

"en" used excessively by native Aramaic speakers; ~157 instances in Rev.

A critical and exegetical commentary on the Revelation of St. John
https://archive.org/stream/acriticalandexeg01charuoft/acriticalandexeg01charuoft_djvu.txt
On cxxx i.e. page 136 of PDF:
(viii.) ἐν. This preposition occurs nearly 157 times, (a) The most noteworthy use of ἐν in our author is its instrumental use.  Thus it occurs 33 times, whereas it does not occur at all in J (save in a quasi-instrumental sense in the phrase ἐν ... : see Abbott, Gr. 256), nor yet in the Pauline or Catholic Epp. save once in 2 Pet. It is found 34 times in the Synoptics (according to Moulton and Geden), 3 times in Acts, and 3 in Hebrews.  Moulton (Gr., pp. 12, 61, 104) thinks that the publication of the Tebtunis Papyri (1902) has "rescued the instrumental ἐν from the class of Hebraisms" in the case of ἐν ..., Lk 22^49, and ἐν ..., I Cor 4^21.  To this claim Abbott (Gr. 256 n.) rejoins effectively.  But even though the instrumental ἐν does occur in the papyri sporadically (where the influence of Jewish traders may have been at work), this fact cannot account in any case for the preponderating use of ἐν in our author.  No adequate explanation can be found save in its origination in a mind steeped in Semitic.  Even Moulton (p. 61 n.) concedes that this "came to be used rather excessively ... by men whose mother tongue was Aramaic."  But this concession in the case of our author is quite inadequate.  ....

Strong's Concordance 1722. en
https://biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm
en: in, on, at, by, with
Original Word: ἐν
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: en
Phonetic Spelling: (en)
Definition: in, on, at, by, with
Usage: in, on, among.