Tentmaker Forum

The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek. 
Using the Peshi+ta tool at dukhrana.com

Gehenna
verses that contains lexeme 1:525 ܓܗܢܐ
Mt 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33; Mk 9:43, 9:45, 9:47; Lk 12:5

Sheol
verses that contains lexeme 1:3180 ܫܝܘܠ
Mt 11:23, 16:18; Lk 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:24, 2:27, 2:31; Rom 10:7; 1Cor 15:55; 1Peter 3:19; Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 20:14

Tehuma (Abyss, bottomless pit)
verses that contains lexeme 1:3363 ܬܗܘܡܐ
Luke 8:31; Rom 10:7; Rev 9:1, 9:11, 20:1, 20:3

aimtana (darkness, obscurity, mist)
verses that contains lexeme 1:2347 ܥܡܛܢܐ
Acts 2:20, 13:11; 2Peter 2:4, 2:17; Jude 1:6, 1:13

hesuka (dark, darkness)
verses that contains lexeme 1:1178 ܚܫܘܟܐ
Mt 4:16, 6:23, 8:12, 10:27, 22:13, 25:30, 27:45
Mark 15:33
Luke 1:79, 11:34, 11:35, 11:36, 12:3, 22:53, 23:44, 24:1
John 1:5, 3:19, 8:12, 12:35, 12:46, 20:1; Acts 13:11, 26:18
Romans 2:19, 13:12
1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 4:6, 6:14; Eph 4:18, 5:8, 5:11, 6:12
Col 1:13; 1Thess 5:4, 5:5; Hebr 12:18; 1Peter 2:9; 2Peter 2:17
1Jn 1:5, 1:6; 1Jn 2:8, 2:9, 2:11; Jude 1:13; Rev 16:10

airpela (mist, gloom, blackness)
verses that contains lexeme 1:2419 ܥܪܦܠܐ
Hebr 12:18

The NT was originally written in Aramaic before being translated into Greek.
Three instances where l'ailm [to the world/age] clearly don't mean 'forever' are:
Rom 16:25 (mystery kept secret 'forever' but now revealed).
Jude 1:7 (Sodom and Gomorrah underwent a punishment of 'eternal' fire), and
Phil 1:15 (you have gotten Philemon back 'forever').

Very good studies! I will come back tomorrow and read these again.. One thing I cannot seem to often remember is whether it is four words were translated to read 'hell' or five.. And I can only ever remember Sheol and Gehenna..

I wonder about "hades" in the letters.. some being written to gentiles..

Quote from: DavidFord on August 27, 2018, 10:50:45 PM
The NT was originally written in Aramaic before being translated into Greek.
Three instances where l'ailm [to the world/age] clearly don't mean 'forever' are:
Rom 16:25 (mystery kept secret 'forever' but now revealed).
Jude 1:7 (Sodom and Gomorrah underwent a punishment of 'eternal' fire), and
Phil 1:15 (you have gotten Philemon back 'forever').

:thumbsup: I definitely have to come back and take note of these verses :thumbsup:

And Jude's example of 'eternal' fire, I've always thought, so where are the flames if its the fire that's forever? No flames over there now.. just hills of dust and ashes.. a forever lesson..

Great studies!

Quote from: marie glen on August 28, 2018, 05:00:14 AMI will come back tomorrow and read these again

Sounds great.

Aramaic verses that contains lexeme 1:3386 which means "low," from the Peshi++a Tool at http://dukhrana.com
Mark 6:11, Ephesians 4:9, 2Peter 2:4

Mark 6:11, translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) ....beat off the dust that is beneath your feet....
(Murdock) ....shake off the dust that is under your feet....
(Lamsa) ....shake off the sand under your feet....

Ephesians 4:9-10 translated from Aramaic, https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/ephesians/4.htm
9 But that he ascended, what is it but that also he first descended to the lower regions of The Earth?
10 He who descended is the same who also ascended higher than all Heavens to restore all things.

Ephesians 4:9 translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) But he who ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the low places of the earth ?
(Murdock) Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also previously descended to the interior [regions] of the earth ?
(Lamsa) Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the inner parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) He who descended, is he who also ascended above all the heavens, to fulfil all.
(Murdock) He who descended, is also the same that ascended up, high above all the heavens, that he might fulfill all things.
(Lamsa) So he that descended is the same also that ascended far above all heavens, that he might fulfil all things.

2Peter 2:4 translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*,

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

Which is prettier:  translated from Greek, or from Aramaic?:

Hebrews 12:3 (NKJV)
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

Hebrews 12:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/hebrews/12.htm
Behold, therefore, how much he endured from sinners,
those who were themselves opponents to their own souls,
so that you do not become careless in yourselves,
neither weaken your souls.

Hebrews 12:3, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Consider, therefore, how much he endured from sinners
who were adversaries to themselves,
that ye weary not,
nor fail in your souls.
(Murdock) Behold, therefore, how much he suffered from sinners,
from them who are adversaries of their own soul,
that ye may not be discouraged,
nor your soul become remiss.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 02, 2018, 01:54:56 AM
Which is prettier:  translated from Greek, or from Aramaic?:

Hebrews 12:3 (NKJV)
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

Hebrews 12:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/hebrews/12.htm
Behold, therefore, how much he endured from sinners,
those who were themselves opponents to their own souls,
so that you do not become careless in yourselves,
neither weaken your souls.

Hebrews 12:3, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Consider, therefore, how much he endured from sinners
who were adversaries to themselves,
that ye weary not,
nor fail in your souls.
(Murdock) Behold, therefore, how much he suffered from sinners,
from them who are adversaries of their own soul,
that ye may not be discouraged,
nor your soul become remiss.

Interesting, the meanings are so different.

I'll assume you have taken lots of time to study all this, you seem to know a fair amount about the translation differences.

Can you provide a big picture post? You keep dropping tidbits here and there—what in your opinion are the key translation differences, what is the implication of the translation differences, and how does it all relate to UR.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 02, 2018, 02:02:57 AM
"Interesting, the meanings are so different"

Yes, the Greek manuscripts lack the line "those who were themselves opponents to their own souls," and lack the Semitic poetry of saying something, and then saying it again with a twist.

Matthew 7:6 The Passion Translation (TPT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A6-8&version=TPT
"Who would hang earrings on a dog's ear
or throw pearls in front of wild pigs?
They'll only trample them under their feet
and then turn around and tear you to pieces!
Footnotes:
Matthew 7:6 As translated from the Aramaic. The Greek is "Don't let the dogs have consecrated [holy] meat." The Aramaic word for "earrings" is almost identical to the word for "holy." Earrings and pearls are symbols of spiritual truths given to us by God. They give us beautiful "ears" to hear his voice and impart lovely pearls of wisdom, which are not to be regarded lightly or shared with those who have their hearts closed. The Aramaic word for "throw" is almost identical to the word for "to instruct" or "to teach." The value of wisdom is not appreciated by those who have no ears to hear it.

"Can you provide a big picture post?"
I don't yet know the big picture.

"what in your opinion are the key translation differences, what is the implication of the translation differences, and how does it all relate to UR"
Things are lost in translations-- always.  The Assyrian Church of the East has been very diligent in its transmission of the Peshi++a through the centuries, while the Greek manuscripts have been in comparison sloppily copied through the years, resulting in many variants, and some additions.
If the NT was originally in Aramaic, and if there exists today a reliable text of the Aramaic NT, then it can be studied on UR matters in conjunction with the Hebrew OT, since Aramaic is a sister language of Hebrew.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 02, 2018, 02:02:57 AMthe meanings are so different

Here's another instance where the Peshi++a has material absent in Greek manuscripts:

Rom 15:7 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+15%3A7&version=NKJV
Therefore receive one another,
just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God.

Compare:

Rom 15:7, translated from Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com/
(Etheridge) Therefore, receive and bear with one another,
as also the Meshiha hath received you, to the glory of Aloha.
(Murdock) Wherefore, receive ye and bear up one another,
as also Messiah received you, to the glory of God.
(Lamsa) Therefore be close and bear one another's burdens,
just as Christ also brought you close to the glory of God.

Rom 15:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/15.htm
Because of this, you shall accept and bear with one another,
just as also The Messiah has accepted you for the glory of God.

Rom 15:7 (Aramaic Peshi++a NT)   
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
Because of this, draw near to and bear up each other,
as also Christ has drawn near to you for the glory of God.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 02, 2018, 02:02:57 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on September 02, 2018, 01:54:56 AM
Which is prettier:  translated from Greek, or from Aramaic?:

Hebrews 12:3 (NKJV)
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

Hebrews 12:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/hebrews/12.htm
Behold, therefore, how much he endured from sinners,
those who were themselves opponents to their own souls,
so that you do not become careless in yourselves,
neither weaken your souls.

Hebrews 12:3, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Consider, therefore, how much he endured from sinners
who were adversaries to themselves,
that ye weary not,
nor fail in your souls.
(Murdock) Behold, therefore, how much he suffered from sinners,
from them who are adversaries of their own soul,
that ye may not be discouraged,
nor your soul become remiss.

Interesting, the meanings are so different.

I'll assume you have taken lots of time to study all this, you seem to know a fair amount about the translation differences.

Can you provide a big picture post? You keep dropping tidbits here and there—what in your opinion are the key translation differences, what is the implication of the translation differences, and how does it all relate to UR.

GIL, do not be deceived. It may be possible that the Greek NT was translated from an Aramaic version. It seems unlikely however for the following reasons:

1. So many Greek manuscripts contain things that do not turn up in other versions. This seems an unlikely turn of events if the Greek version were all translated from previous Aramaic texts.

2. Because of similarity of content in many elements of the synoptic gospels particularly, Biblical scholars have postulated a separate, earlier document, of quotations of Jesus as an earlier source for all those gospels. That would require Q to be in Aramaic (possible) then written into Aramaic versions of the gospels and then translated again into the Greek versions we all receive our text from.

3. The epistles of Paul. The epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin. There would be no reason to write them first in Aramaic as their audience wouldn't understand them.

What is true is that whether or not any of the New Testament epistles were written in Aramaic we haven't got any surviving record of any. Whatever we have here is speculation over what the Aramaic might originally have been.

Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:43:08 PMSo many Greek manuscripts contain things that do not turn up in other versions.

In what languages are 3 of those "other versions"?
Do you think John 7:53–8:11 was part of the original John?

New American Bible (Revised Edition)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+8&version=NABRE
7:53–8:11 The story of the woman caught in adultery is a later insertion here, missing from all early Greek manuscripts. A Western text-type insertion, attested mainly in Old Latin translations, it is found in different places in different manuscripts: here, or after Jn 7:36 or at the end of this gospel, or after Lk 21:38, or at the end of that gospel. There are many non-Johannine features in the language, and there are also many doubtful readings within the passage. The style and motifs are similar to those of Luke, and it fits better with the general situation at the end of Lk 21, but it was probably inserted here because of the allusion to Jer 17:13 (cf. note on Jn 8:6) and the statement, "I do not judge anyone," in Jn 8:15. The Catholic Church accepts this passage as canonical scripture.

"The epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin."
3 illustrations in support of the claim that those "Christian communities" "first language was clearly either Greek or Latin"?
Do you think Paul's mentions of "bowels" is something that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

search for "bowels" on KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=bowels&begin=47&end=73
2 Corinthians 6:12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
Philippians 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Philemon 1:12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:
Philemon 1:20 Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels in the Lord.
1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

"whether or not any of the New Testament epistles were written in Aramaic we haven't got any surviving record of any"
The 4 gospels existed in Aramaic at the latest as of A.D. 175 (the year of Tatian's death). We presently have a surviving translation from that Aramaic into Arabic.
The Assyrian Church of the East has been faithfully and carefully recopying the Aramaic NT books they received since they received them in Aramaic.

Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:43:08 PMThe epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin.

Do you think Paul's mentions of "heart" and "eyeservice" and "the eyes of your heart" are things that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

search of KJV for "heart"
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=heart&begin=47&end=73&limit=500

Colossians 3:22
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+3%3A22&version=KJV;MOUNCE
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh;
not with eyeservice [Greek:  ophthalmodoulia], as menpleasers;
but in singleness of heart [Greek:  kardia], fearing God;

Ephesians 6:6
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A6+&version=KJV;MOUNCE
Not with eyeservice [Greek:  ophthalmodoulia],
as menpleasers;
but as the servants of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart [Greek: psyche.  I looked for a Greek manuscript with kardia but didn't find one; did KJV translators use a manuscript having kardia?]

Strong's Concordance 2588. kardia
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/2588.htm

Strong's Concordance 4641. sklerokardia (hardness of heart)
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/4641.htm

Strong's Concordance 2589. kardiognostes (knower of hearts)
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/2589.htm

Ephesians 1:18 (Disciples' Literal New Testament)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph+1%3A18&version=DLNT;MOUNCE
so that you, the eyes [Greek:  ophthalmos] of your heart [Greek:  kardia] having been enlightened,
may know what is the hope of His calling,
what is the riches of the glory of His inheritance among the saints

I had a Pecrapta Bible once but the word hell was definitely in it.. so I discounted it in favor of other versions., I usually read interlinear when I am not already reasonably certain of a verse's meaning.. And by comparing versions.. especially the Young's Literal and Berean versions, study and one other, which I use on biblehub app and dot com.. which also has an Aramaic version. With the Holy Spirit's guidance I think most seekers can find the intent of God's Spirit in His inspiring of the writing. Commentaries are sometimes very helpful too, but only aFter the verse(s) and cross references..

After 38 years of study.. my biggest questions have been answered, and the only thing I distrust is the allusions to afterlife physical torment and the idea or assumption of inherent immortality..

Which the Old Testament/Hebrew helps a great deal.

For many believers, especially new, I believe modern translations make for more understandable reading.. And I enjoy them myself after being aware of how other versions read. Every once in a while one runs into a KJ only person.. Not even NKJ will suffice to them! But for a new believer, that's veRy cumbersome and doesn't read very smoothly at all. A lot of folks just get the basic message, which I think is ok - minus ET of course!

Language studies as pertains to the Bible can be very interesting. But Truth transcends language.. Mostly I 'worry' about the Et message, as it so greatly insults our Heavenly Father. And, I believe, keeps many folks from being able to believe. Not that I actually "worry"! God is SO able! He just plays hide and seek with mankind to a certain degree.. making us find His true character and attributes.
Just my :2c:
:gsmile:

Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:43:08 PM
The epistles of Paul where clearly written... to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin

Which makes more sense to you:  Rom 5:7 translated from Greek, or translated from Aramaic?

(KJV) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die:
yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Rom 5:7, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) for hardly for the wicked one dieth;
for on account of the good one may perhaps dare to die.
(Murdock) (for rarely doth one die for the ungodly;
though for the good, some one perhaps might venture to die :)
(Lamsa) Hardly would any man die for the sake of the wicked:
but for the sake of the good, one might be willing to die.

Rom 5:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/5.htm
For a man will hardly die for the sake of the wicked,
however a man perhaps may dare to die for the sake of the good.

Rom 5:7 (Aramaic Peshi++a NT)    
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
(for seldom does anyone die for the ungodly,
although for good [ones] perhaps some would dare to die)

Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:43:08 PMto be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin

How about Revelation-- was it written to native speakers of Greek or Latin?
Do you think Rev 2:23's mentions of "kidneys" and "hearts" are things that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

Rev 2:23 (KJV)
And I will kill her children with death;
and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins [Greek:  nephros] and hearts [Greek:  kardia]:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

search of KJV for "reins"
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=reins&qs_version=KJV&limit=500

Strong's Concordance 3510. nephros
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/3510.htm
nephros: a kidney, fig. the (inmost) mind

It's helpful, I find, to look at a bigger slice of this contentious but extremely interesting subject which has been debated for a long time! The following is research by someone who uses the Aramaic NT along with the Greek NT so is not a Greek Primacist and is not Aramaic-bashing, just someone attempting to be "intellectually honest"; in my opinion it's a balanced article for someone who is not interested in grinding axes and who wants as unbiased a view on the issue of New Testament translations in as concise a form as possible...

https://torahapologetics.weebly.com/language--word-studies/aramaic-primacy-of-the-new-testament

For instance...

QuoteBelow is a short list of some of these important Greek words, found contained in the Pes-hitta. These words are transliterated into Aramaic from their Greek origin.

    אונגליון (euwangeiliahn) a transliteration of the Greek εὐαγγελίον (euangelion) meaning "gospel" or "good news." This appears in places such as Mark 1:1.

    אפיסקופא (epiysquwpa) a transliteration of the Greek ἐπίσκοπος (episkopos) meaning "overseer" or "bishop" and is used in Acts 20:28. This is where we derive words such as "episcopal" from. Note that in Greek the same word is used in 1 Tim. 3:2 and Titus 1:7, though in Syriac the word used in those two verses is קשישא (qashiysha). Why would it not use the Syriac word in each instance, if it were not translated from Greek?

    פרקליטא (paraqleeta) is a transliteration of the Greek παράκλητος (parakletos) meaning "comforter" or "advocate." Used in John 14, 15, 16, and 1 John 2:1. This Greek word is derived from two different words: παρα (para) andκαλεω (kaleo) which means "to call close beside." Surely the Syriac language should have its own form of this? Especially if this is a Hebrew / Aramaic concept, simply borrowed by the Greeks.

    פנטקוסטא (penteqosta) is a transliteration of the Greek Πεντηκοστῆς (pentekostes), which literally means "fiftieth." In most Bibles, this appears as "Pentecost." This refers to the Feast of Shavuot, after counting the omer for 50 days. We find it in Acts 2 in the Pes-hitta NT. In the Pes-hitta Tanakh, in Deut. 16:16, where the Hebrew talks about the Feast of Shavuot, the Pes-hitta reads, ובעאדא דשבועא (weba'eda d'shavua) meaning "the feast of weeks." Why, then, does it copy the Greek Pentecost, when the Syriac phrase it much closer to the Hebrew? Why copy the Greek at all, when Syriac has its own word for this?

    תרנוס (tranaws) is a transliteration of the Greek θρονος (thronos) meaning "throne" as is found in Matthew 19:28. However, the second time the Greek uses thronos in Matthew 19:28, the Syriac uses כורסון (koowrsown) which is the Syriac word for seat or chair.


There are numerous other examples, these are just a few of the more important ones.

There are other helpful articles that offer slightly different approaches, but the point is that the Aramaic Primacy theory is definitely not proven in my opinion...


Peace...

Quote from: DavidFord on August 26, 2018, 06:27:12 AM
Tehuma (Abyss, bottomless pit)
verses that contains lexeme 1:3363 ܬܗܘܡܐ
Luke 8:31; Rom 10:7; Rev 9:1, 9:11, 20:1, 20:3

Comparing Romans 10:7 with Revelation 9:1 makes me think they are not exactly the same thing in the two verses..

Romans 10:7 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
7 or, `Who shall go down to the abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to bring up.

Revelation 9:1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9 And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen to the earth, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss..

Interesting.. never noticed that before..

Quote
Sheol
verses that contains lexeme 1:3180 ܫܝܘܠ
Mt 11:23, 16:18; Lk 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:24, 2:27, 2:31; Rom 10:7; 1Cor 15:55; 1Peter 3:19; Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 20:14

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Mt 11:23:
And you Kapernahum, which have been exalted unto Heaven, you will descend unto Sheol, for if the mighty works had been done in Sadom, which have been done in you, it would have remained until today.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Acts 2:24:
"But God raised him and he destroyed the destructions of Sheol because it was not possible for him to be held captive in Sheol."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - 1 Cor. 15:55
Where is your sting, oh death? Where is your victory, oh, Sheol?
----- Young's Literal Translation
where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

:Chinscratch: maybe I should get myself an Aramaic in Plain English New Testament, As I personally would prefer to read sheol than Hades..  Though Paul, I'm thinking likely used hades, as in Paul's letter to gentile Corinthian believers. Hades is so misleading, imo.. Although.. "place of the dead" (imo) is still "the grave" -
As in:
Ecclesiastes 9:10 -  Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm
no work/deed
no device/reckoning/accounting - reasoning?
no wisdom
no knowledge - knowing?

No doing, no thought?

And as we know "all meet in sheol"..

:Chinscratch:

dang it! gotta run..

Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:43:08 PMThe epistles of Paul

For 1 Cor 13:3, do you think it originally had:  "burned" (i.e., kauthēsomai)?  "glory/boast" (i.e., kauchēsōmai)?

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-corinthians-13
NASB, NKJV, TEV, NJB "my body to be burned"
NRSV "my body so that I may boast"
There are two manuscript options: "burned" (i.e., kauthēsomai) and "glory" (i.e., kauchēsōmai) are both found in early Greek manuscripts and the early church fathers. The phrase, "that I may glory," has the strongest manuscript support (i.e., MSS P46, א, and B), but UBS4 is unable to make a decision between them. It is also a term used often by Paul (cf. II Cor. 8:24; Phil. 2:16; I Thess. 2:19; II Thess. 1:4). Martyrdom by burning was unknown in the early church, but became more common in later persecutions (i.e., Nero and Domitian). Therefore, one can see how a later scribe might have changed "glory" to "burn."

kauchaomai
https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/kauchaomai
to boast, brag about; to rejoice in, glory in; this can refer to proper or improper boasting, depending on the object of the boast

I once wondered did the state of death change after Jesus, seeing as Sheol became Hades.. a more mysterious perception of death.. But upon more thought, think Jesus surely (?) spoke Aramaic, so He would have used Sheol.. and the later letters (to gentile 'churches') the Greek, I think, was likely used, and hades would simply be the logical replacement.. Most UR believers I think are aware of the descrepwncies between for ever and aion, and the translating of words (4? 5?) into the horrible translation of 'hell' :eek:

Quote from: lastpost on September 03, 2018, 08:37:52 PMthe Aramaic Primacy theory is definitely not proven in my opinion

In your view, what are the 3 strongest lines of evidence in support of the theory that the NT was originally in Greek?
What's your explanation of Paul using Aramaic in a letter some allege was originally written in Greek to Greek-speakers?

1 Cor 16:22 The Passion Translation
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+16:22&version=TPT
If anyone doesn't sincerely love the Lord,
he deserves to be doomed as an outcast. 
Our Lord has come!
b: Or "Maranatha!" This is an Aramaic word that can be translated in two ways, "Come, our Lord" or "Our Lord has come."

Strong's Concordance 3134. marana tha
https://biblehub.com/greek/3134.htm
marana tha: (our) Lord, come!
Original Word: μαρὰν ἀθά
Part of Speech: Aramaic Transliterated Word (Indeclinable)
Transliteration: marana tha
Phonetic Spelling: (mar'-an ath'-ah)
Short Definition: our Lord cometh
Definition: (Aramaic), either: Our Lord hath come, or: Our Lord cometh (will come, is at hand).
HELPS Word-studies
3134 marán athá (marán athá) – "Maranatha," an Aramaic term derived from two roots which literally mean, "Our Lord has come" (perfect tense in Aramaic, emphasizing the lingering results involved).

Quoteפרקליטא (paraqleeta) is a transliteration of the Greek παράκλητος (parakletos) meaning "comforter" or "advocate." Used in John 14, 15, 16, and 1 John 2:1. This Greek word is derived from two different words: παρα (para) andκαλεω (kaleo) which means "to call close beside." Surely the Syriac language should have its own form of this? Especially if this is a Hebrew / Aramaic concept, simply borrowed by the Greeks.

Prqlta: Redeemer. It appears in the Aramaic NT at John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, & 16:7, and 1 John 2:1. Paul Younan of peshi tta.org comments that,
"PRQLTA has been confused with the Greek 'Paraclitus,' meaning 'Advocate.' The Aramaic construct PRQLTA is derived from two Aramaic roots: PRQ ('to end', 'to finish' or 'to save', see Strong's Concordance entries 6561 and 6562) and LTA ('the curse' cf. Mk 11:21, Mt 5:44, _A Compendious Syriac Dictionary_, page 236, and _Oraham's Dictionary_, page 250). PRQLTA means 'Redeemer' or 'One who ends the curse.' By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, our fallen nature has been redeemed from the curse of Adam."
The book __Khabouris Manuscript_ page 85 says the word 'paracleta' is
"either a Greek or Persian term. If Persian, it is paric plus leta. Paric in Persian is break loose, break away. Leta means the curse of, effects of error or sin. Thus the combination is rendered 'that which breaks off the effects of sin.'"

Yonan Codex Foundation. 1993. _Khabouris Manuscript: Enlightenment from the Aramaic: Selected Passages from The Khabouris Manuscript An Ancient Text of the Syriac New Testament_. (USA: FHU), 98pp.

Friend, if you look at what I have written I am not speaking of "three strongest lines of evidence" - I am speaking of looking at the bigger picture ("bigger slice"), and that article I posted is but one example of what I consider to be a balanced and unbiased view by one not seeking to "prove" their translation is the correct one - I am not interested in continuously swapping "three strongest lines of evidence" but what the overall picture, from studies, tells me personally, and I have stated what that is. I have been and still am satisfied, personally, that the Aramaic Primacy theory is definitely not proven. That of course is my opinion.

Incidentally, it works both ways: those translating from Greek to Aramaic might have changed the Greek to something they think it ought to be because they didn't think it was correct in the first place (the same with the famous leper/potter issue)...


John 14:16
"And I will beg the Father, and he will give you (ἄλλον) another Comforter/ Helper, that he may be with you for ever"

"And I will beg the Father, and he will give you (ἄλλον) another One who ends the curse, that he may be with you for ever"


"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, (for it is written, Cursed [is] every one hanged upon a tree,)"

It is Christ Himself who is the Saviour and I take Him at His word. I believe this...

"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25–26)


Peace and again Peace in Him!

I find this interesting ..though I've been partly skimmming the thread, well the later threads and working on reading the opening post.. I find this interesting in that the way I'm thinking of it is a sort of backwards translation into how it would read in the Aramaic, given how it's all Hebrew ideas on a Hebrew foundation.

I've long thought it's possible three of the gospels were written in Aramaic.. that's assuming Mark is the scribe that went with Paul and Barnabas on that first journey, and I believe he is - and Luke was a Greek physician. Matthew and John of course being of Israel for sure. [Though I read today some doubts about John's gospel, but it sure sounds like John to me! Rabble Rousers!]

But I'm also thinking most of the letters may have very well been written in the Greek, to gentile 'churches', so it's like translated, or traced back into how it would have read, if written in the Aramaic..  Those conclusions/teachings in their (more) native language.

I say more native as I know Israel used Hebrew.. and I have no idea how close or how far removed the Hebrew is to the Aramaic.. (and vice versa).

I know Jesus spoke to Paul in Aramaic when stopping him on the road to Damascus, Acts 26:14. (So to me, the ideas/teaching/doctrine(s) are still Hebrew.)

It says Paul made his defense, in Jerusalem, to the crowd in Aramaic, Acts 22:2.
Although the interlinear says it was Hebrew - :mshock: - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/22-2.htm

:Chinscratch: I wonder about Acts 26:14, Jesus speaking to Paul in the bright light - Yep, "Hebrais / Hebraidi" (Hebrew dialect of the Aramaic of the (Middle East/Babylon/Persia?) region. - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/26-14.htm

Well. That's interesting. Maybe Hebrew at the time wasn't as unused a language as thought.

           :Peace2:

Quote from: marie glen on September 03, 2018, 07:39:24 PMI had a.... Bible once but the word hell was definitely in it.. so I discounted it in favor of other versions

The Aramaic Peshi++a uses "Sheol."  If you see "hell" in a translation from Aramaic, the underlying Aramaic is either "Sheol" or "Gehenna."  Searching KJV for "hell" shows that Janet Magiera's translation from Aramaic uses "Sheol" or "Gehenna."
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/english-word-search
As does Etheridge's and Younan's translations.
http://dukhrana.com
And Bauscher's.
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/

Quote from: lastpost on September 03, 2018, 11:58:55 PMthose translating from Greek to Aramaic might have changed the Greek to something they think it ought to be because they didn't think it was correct in the first place (the same with the famous leper/potter issue)...

In the Aramaic Pes-hitta, Mt's rendition of the Lord's Prayer has much rhyming.  The Aramaic Lk's version has less rhyming. The Greek versions lack rhyming.  Do you think that it's possible that someone translated a non-rhyming Greek Lord's Prayer into a rhyming Aramaic Lord's Prayer?

A transliteration of the Aramaic Mt 6:9-13:
Ah-woon ** our Father
d'wash-may-ya ** in heaven
============================
nith-qad-dash shmakh ** holy be Your name
teh'-theh' ** come
mal-koo-thakh ** Your kingdom
neh-weh ** be done
tsow-ya-nakh ** Your will
============================
ay-kan-na ** as
d'wash-may-ya ** in heaven
ap b'ar-aa ** so on earth.
11 ============================
haw lan ** give us
lakh-ma ** the bread
d'son-qa-nan ** of our need
yo-ma-na ** this day
12 ============================
ow'shwoq lan ** and forgive us
khow-beyn ** our offences
ay-kan-na d'ap kha-nan ** as also we
shwa-qan ** have forgiven
l'khay-ya-wen ** those who have offended us
13 ============================
ow'la ** and not
ta'-lan ** bring us
l'nis-you-na ** into trial
al-la pas-san ** but deliver us
min bee-sha ** from the evil one
============================
modt-dtil d'dee-lak ** for of yours
hee mal-koo-tha ** is the Kingdom
ow'khay-la ** and the power
ow'tish-bokh-tha ** and the glory
l'al-um ail-meen. ** to the age of ages, or:  to the world of worlds

What do you think is more poetic:  the Lord's Prayer
a) in Greek, or
b) in the Mt 6 Aramaic?

Mt 6:10's "as" uses the letters "aikna," while Lk 11:2s "as" uses "aik."  Also, Mt 6:11 uses "yomna"-- this day, daily-- while Lk 11:3 instead uses "klium"-- every day, daily. Hence, in at least 2 places, the Luke version means the same, but has less-perfect rhyming compared with the Matthew version.  In my opinion, Yeshua-- God incarnate-- gave a model prayer with superb rhyming recorded in the Aramaic Mt 6.  The Lk 11 rendition means the same, but has less rhyming and fewer of Yeshua's original words, besides lacking "for of yours is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, l'ailm-ailmin."

Back to the Opening Post - Um.. I'm a little behind.. I'll make the comment a different color..

Quote from: DavidFord on August 26, 2018, 06:27:12 AM
aimtana (darkness, obscurity, mist)
verses that contains lexeme 1:2347 ܥܡܛܢܐ
Acts 2:20, 13:11; 2Peter 2:4, 2:17; Jude 1:6, 1:13

In Peter 2:4 - What word is used in your Aramaic instead of Tartarus? (Greek, tartaroó - #G5020) - [https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm)]

The Aramaic Bible in Plain English, says - https://biblehub.com/2_peter/2-4.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment,

I'm doubly curious, as I've always wondered if what is truly referred to isn't a pit, but deepest darkness. Kind of like in Rev 9 when "noisy locusts come out of the smoke" of the bottomless pit, which I take to also be deepest darkness, or potential - imperfection being a bottomless pit of potential?

In Greek myth "Tartarus" is a pit..

Quote
In the Iliad (c. 700 BC), Zeus asserts that Tartarus is "as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth." While according to Greek mythology the realm of Hades is the place of the dead, Tartarus also has a number of inhabitants.

So.. to me, it just doesn't jive!

:Chinscratch: Peter in 1 Peter begins the letter - " Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," - which "soujourners of the dispersion" could be Hebrew believers.. (so the more chance it was written in Hebrew/Aramaic - it's not so clear which, it seems.)

But! in 2 Peter it's - "Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:" (YLT) ...though he does refer to Noah, Lot, Sodom and Gomorrah.. (Hebrew history)

Quote
https://biblehub.com/greek/5020.htm
"5020 (tartaróō) is a Greek name for the under-world, especially the abode of the damned – hence to cast into hell" (A-S); to send into the subterranean abyss reserved for demons and the dead.

[In Greek mythology, Tartarus was a "place of punishment under the earth, to which, for example, the Titans were sent" (Souter).]

It appears to me, tartaroo is one word.. but because of the mythology it becomes "cast into tartarus" or implied, hell.

But what if we ignored the mythology? Was the word used only for "Tartarus" the pit? :dunno:

If 2 Peter 2:4 was written or said in Aramaic, what word would be used?

Am I confused and the abyss and Tartarus are not the same?

I just noticed my iphone auto-corrected Pecrapta / Pe$hitta in one of my replies to read Pecrapta - I can only imagine the confusion if you read it..

Ahaa.. now I get it.. Not my innocent, in this case, iphone, lol.. so I guess it was my confusion :laughing7:

Which I can now see after reading further in the thread..

Ah yes friend, and lovely it is, is it not!

There is also so much in the Greek that is lost in translation – so much that it would be extremely unlikely to be chance...

From...
http://christswords.com/content/did-christ-teach-greek

Quote

Double Meanings and Wordplay

...Spending time with the Greek of Christ's words will gradually convince any serious student that the work couldn't be a translation. There is so much in it, especially double meanings and other wordplay, the makes sense only in the Greek. There are many to many examples to cite, but you can go through all the posts discussing them here http://christswords.com/wordplay_lists. These posts currently show with the most recent first, even though that work doesn't follow the order of the Gospels themselves.

Scholars claim wordplay in Aramaic translation. They claim this proves that the Aramaic is the source. For example, in the parable of the mustard seed (Matt 13 31-32) has some wordplay in Aramaic, "It is smaller ( zearoya, in Aramaic) than all the seeds (zeraona). But when it grows (rabbath) it is greater (rabba) than all the herbs."

While the similarity between rabbath (grows) and rabba (greater) sounds like a choice of words from the same root. This is a choice of the translator working from Greek into Aramaic. There are always many word choices in any language for general ideas such as "greater" and "growth." Think of all the synonyms in English. The similarity between zearoya (smaller) and zeraona (seeds) could easily be a coincidence or, again, the choice of the translator.

Wordplay that seems to add new dimensions of meaning is common in Greek. So common that just today, before rewriting this article, the days post examined the phrase, "the Teacher and Master" in Jhn 13:13 that Christ reverses in Jhn 13:14 to "Master and Teacher." There seems to be no reason for this in English, but in Greek, the "and" is from kai which also means "as". So the first verse Christ his followers call him the "Teacher as Master." In English, we might call a great teacher a "master" as well. However, in the following verse, Christ describes himself as a "Master as Teacher," a Superior who is also teaching them. This makes perfect sense if you read the contents of Jhn 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master. The topic is what he is teaching. His reversal of these words is clever, funny, and says something important about Christ's role. And it only works in Greek where an "and" is also an "as."

...


Personally, I am pleased that there is a little uncertainty because the important thing from my point of view is that Christ is the One unchanging constant of Whom all can be certain - and of our One God we can be certain, without all of the encumbrances that man has always sought to throw upon Him with his words.

Quote from: lastpost on September 04, 2018, 01:20:15 AM
Personally, I am pleased that there is a little uncertainty because the important thing from my point of view is that Christ is the One unchanging constant of Whom all can be certain - and of our One God we can be certain, without all of the encumbrances that man has always sought to throw upon Him with his words.

That's very nice.. And true.. Father and Son, forever constant! :cloud9:

Quote from: marie glen on September 04, 2018, 12:26:34 AMI have no idea how close or how far removed the Hebrew is to the Aramaic.. (and vice versa)

They're sister languages.  Aramaic has been around for a very long time, and the way its alphabet characters have been represented through the years has changed a lot.  One of the iterations of Aramaic letters is what you'd recognize as Hebrew letters. There are many similar words in Aramaic and Hebrew. You might find this of interest:

George M. Lamsa's Introduction (probably to his translation into English of the Aramaic OT-- itself a translation from Hebrew, with a little original Aramaic e.g. in Daniel-- and the Aramaic NT)
https://amallulla.org/lamsa/

QuoteSpending time with the Greek of Christ's words will gradually convince any serious student that the work couldn't be a translation. There is so much in it, especially double meanings and other wordplay, the makes sense only in the Greek.

What are 3 of the most-impressive instances of "double meanings" in Greek manuscripts you're aware of?
Are you aware of any instances of Janus parallelism in Greek manuscripts?

Janus Parallelism: Mt 13:31-32
He [Yeshua] spoke another mathla [parable] in figure to them and said,
"The kingdom of Heaven is likened to a grain of mustard seed
that a man took (and) sowed in his field.
And it is smaller than all the small seeds,
but when it grows it is greater than all the small herbs,
and becomes a tree
so that the birds [or: blossoms/flowers]
of heaven come (and) nest in its branches."

This has Janus Parallelism poetry, since the Aramaic word rendered 'birds' can also mean blossoms/flowers.
Hence, one way to read the poem would be to focus on the plant aspects:
seed - sowed in field - seeds - grows - herbs - tree - blossoms/flowers - in branches.
Another way to read the poem would be to focus on the bird aspects:
tree - birds of heaven - nest in branches.

Cyrus Gordon located a Janus parallelism in the Song of Songs 2:12, where the word for "pruning" can also mean "singing"-- see Lataster on poetry.
Song of Songs 2:12 (NIV), my bracket
Flowers appear on the earth;
the season of singing [or: pruning] has come,
the cooing of doves
is heard in our land.

Here are two possible ways of focusing on certain aspects of the poem:
flowers - earth - season - pruning - land.
____________ - season - singing - cooing - heard.

fun with varying definitions of a word: Mt 19:12
Another instance of Yeshua having fun with varying definitions of a particular word is in Matthew 19:12:
"For there are mahaymina who were born thus from the womb of their mother.
And there are mahaymina who became mahaymina by men.
And there are mahaymina who made themselves mahaymina for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.
He who is able to comprehend, let him comprehend."

'Mahaymina' can mean eunuch or believer or many similar words; see Lataster. The verse could be translated this way:
For there are eunuchs who were born thus from the womb of their mother.
And there are eunuchs who became believers by men.
And there are believers who made themselves eunuchs [i.e. chose celibacy] for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.
He who is able to comprehend, let him comprehend.'
See also Acts 8:27.

fun with varying definitions of a word: Jn 3:8
Yet another case of Yeshua having fun with varying definitions of particular words is from his conversation with Niqodemus at John 3:8:
"The Rukha [Spirit or wind]
will nashaba [breathe or blow] where it desires,
and you hear its qala [voice or sound],
but you do not know (from) where it comes or (to) where it goes;
likewise is everyone who is born from Rukha [Spirit]."

Yeshua has fun with three Aramaic words. One rendering is,
The _wind_ will _blow_ where it desires/wills,
and you hear its _sound_,
but you do not know from where it comes or where it goes;
likewise is everyone who is born from _spirit_.'
Another rendering is,
"The _Spirit_ _breathes_ where he desires/wills,
and you hear his _voice_,
but you do not know from where he comes and where he goes;
thus is everyone who is born from the _Spirit_."

Niqodemus was perplexed, probably in part because of the wordplay. See Paul Younan & Glenn David Bauscher. Cf. John 20:22, where Yeshua "breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Rukha d'Qudsha'"[Spirit of Holiness].

Quote from: marie glen on September 04, 2018, 01:02:32 AM
In Peter 2:4 - What word is used in your Aramaic instead of Tartarus? .... If 2 Peter 2:4 was written or said in Aramaic, what word would be used?

I asked another person, Do you think some angels were shut up in:  Tartarus?  "the deeps"?  "infernal regions"? "the lowest depths"?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
4 And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*, 5 And he did not spare The First World but he preserved Noah, the eighth man, a Preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood over the world of the wicked, 6 And when he burned the cities of Sadom and Amorah and condemned them in an overthrow, when he set an example to the wicked who were to come,

Glenn David Bauscher, _The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

QuoteSpending time with the Greek of Christ's words will gradually convince any serious student

Re: Mt 7:6, do you prefer the translation from Greek, or the translation from Aramaic?

Mt 7:6 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%207%3A6&version=NKJV;MOUNCE
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs;
nor cast your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn and tear you in pieces.

Mt 7:6 from Aramaic, based on Younan, http://dukhrana.com
You should not hang earrings on dogs,
and you should not place your pearls before pigs,
that they should not trample them by their feet,
and they overtake and wound you.

Mt 7:6 (The Passion Translation)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A6-8&version=TPT
"Who would hang earrings on a dog's ear
or throw pearls in front of wild pigs?
They'll only trample them under their feet
and then turn around and tear you to pieces!
Footnotes:
Matthew 7:6 As translated from the Aramaic. The Greek is "Don't let the dogs have consecrated [holy] meat." The Aramaic word for "earrings" is almost identical to the word for "holy." Earrings and pearls are symbols of spiritual truths given to us by God. They give us beautiful "ears" to hear his voice and impart lovely pearls of wisdom, which are not to be regarded lightly or shared with those who have their hearts closed. The Aramaic word for "throw" is almost identical to the word for "to instruct" or "to teach." The value of wisdom is not appreciated by those who have no ears to hear it.

For Mt 24:51, do you prefer the translation from Greek, or the possible translation from Aramaic?

Matthew 24:51 (HCSB)
He will cut him to pieces[a:  Lit _him in two_]
and assign him a place with the hypocrites.
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(Is a dismembered person-- presumably a dead corpse or about to be a dead corpse-- really supposed to become company with hypocrites that are weeping and gnashing their teeth?)

Lewis, Agnes Smith.  1913.  _Light on the Four Gospels from the Sinai Palimpsest_ (London:  Williams & Norgate), 226pp. 
https://archive.org/details/cu31924091301089
On 109-110, with her bracket:
Dr Arnold Meyer has pointed out that the verb used in Luke xii. 46 and in Matt. xxiv.51 in all the Syriac versions, _palleg_, has the primary meaning of "cut in pieces," and the secondary one of "appoint to some one his portion."^1[1:  Cf. _Jesv Muttersprache_, p. 115.  Dr Meyer attributes these meanings to the _Afel_ form of the verb.  But they belong also to the form _Pael_.]  If we suppose that our Lord used it in the primary sense, the difficulty as to how the man survived so trying a process becomes insoluble.  But if we take it in the secondary one, we must assume that the Evangelist, whilst investigating about all these things, and writing them down carefully in Greek for the benefit of Theophilus, misunderstood a Syriac idiom by taking it too literally.  The translation would then be:  "_and shall allot his portion, and shall place him [or it] with the unfaithful_," etc.
This parable, as Dr Rendel Harris has pointed out, is possibly taken from the story of Achikar, which belongs to the Pseudepigraphy of the Old Testament, and just missed getting into the canonical Apocrypha.  Achikar had a wicked and ungrateful nephew named Nadan, who behaved in precisely the same way as this bad servant did, and who met with a similar fate.

Compare:
Pashka, Joseph.  2003.  _The Aramaic Gospels and Acts:  Text and Translation_ (USA:  Xulon Press), 300pp.  On 53, Mt 24:51:
and will separate from him his share to give among the hypocrites;
there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.

I would punctuate that as:
and will separate from him his share to give;
among the hypocrites there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.

Quote from: lastpost on September 04, 2018, 01:20:15 AMthe Greek of Christ's words... couldn't be a translation

Which is better:  Mt 19:28 in Aramaic, or in Greek?

Mt 19:28 from Aramaic, based on Younan, http://dukhrana.com
Yeshua said to them,
"Amain I say to you that,
you who have come to follow me,
in the new ailma [world/age] when the Barh-d'Ansha [Son of Man] sits upon the throne of shubkeh [his glory],
you also will sit upon twelve seats,
and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mt 19:28 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2019%3A28&version=NKJV;MOUNCE
So Jesus said to them,
"Assuredly I say to you, that
in the regeneration [Greek:  palingenesia],
when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory,
you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Strong's Concordance 3824. paliggenesia
https://biblehub.com/greek/3824.htm
paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: a new birth, regeneration
Definition: a new birth, regeneration, renewal.
HELPS Word-studies
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning")....

Quote from: lastpost on September 04, 2018, 01:20:15 AMThere is also so much in the Greek that is lost in translation

(such as Jesus condemning himself to hell?)
Do you think Jesus is liable to the fire of Gehenna?

Mt 5:22
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/5.htm
3004 [e]
eipē
εἴπῃ  ,
shall say

3474 [e]
Mōre
Μωρέ  ,
Fool
Adj-VMS

1777 [e]
enochos
ἔνοχος
liable

1510 [e]
estai
ἔσται
will be

1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
to

3588 [e]
tēn
τὴν
the

1067 [e]
geennan
γέενναν
hell

3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
-

4442 [e]
pyros
πυρός  .
of fire

Mt 23:17
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/23.htm
3474 [e]
17   mōroi
17   μωροὶ
17   Foolish
17   Adj-VMP

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and

5185 [e]
typhloi
τυφλοί  !
blind

Here's a great example of confused translation.. whether due to language or letter mixup I know not :gsmile:

Can a camel or a rope go through the eye of a needle? Obviously neither one.
Now it sounds more logical Jesus would use rope as the example.. than a camel! Yet how much did it change the intent of what Jesus said?

The main thing of the saying is — with God nothing is impossible!

Language study is awesome! But thank the good Lord, no one has to be a language expert to usually get the jist of what is being said.

Couple that with the Holy Spirit (/Presence) of God to reveal and convince.
"With God there is nothing impossible" including, and especially(!) Universal Reconciliation of all "in heaven and earth".

Like end of Acts summarizes/concludes, it's all about hearing and seeing, understanding with the heart, and thus turning to Him, and being healed.

Like some other things, language study is great and to be very commended (all study!) and can yield much insight.. But like many other things, it is not a requirement of all God's people - which of course, no one has said :laughing7: but taking into account the human tendency to run with things, and so often to the extreme.. I found myself pondering this. How wonderful and wise He is .. and how "wisdom is justified of His children".. An awkward turn of phrase right there.. :Chinscratch: ..but I'm too lazy right this minute to seek the verse and the interlinear, or the possible Aramaic/Hebraidi. And I think I get the intent of it.. That we're all different.. from your nose to the grindstone 'scholars' to the humblest, believer who understands salvation and love and are able to leave it at that, simply loving, and winning some over by their simple gentleness and love.
:cloud9: ..And of course a blend of both qualities is a good thing too! :Peace2:

Quote from: DavidFord on September 04, 2018, 04:07:46 AM

Quote from: lastpost on September 04, 2018, 01:20:15 AMthe Greek of Christ's words... couldn't be a translation

Which is better:  Mt 19:28 in Aramaic, or in Greek?

Mt 19:28 from Aramaic, based on Younan, http://dukhrana.com
Yeshua said to them,
"Amain I say to you that,
you who have come to follow me,
in the new ailma [world/age] when the Barh-d'Ansha [Son of Man] sits upon the throne of shubkeh [his glory],
you also will sit upon twelve seats,
and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mt 19:28 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2019%3A28&version=NKJV;MOUNCE
So Jesus said to them,
"Assuredly I say to you, that
in the regeneration [Greek:  palingenesia],
when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory,
you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Strong's Concordance 3824. paliggenesia
https://biblehub.com/greek/3824.htm
paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: a new birth, regeneration
Definition: a new birth, regeneration, renewal.
HELPS Word-studies
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning")....

Personally this verse, I do like the Aramaic better. And I do come down on the side of thinking Jesus likely spoke Aramaic/Hebraidi.
:thumbsup:
And thankfully even in the Greek it gives a good indication of the saying's intent.

P.S. - “cut to pieces” or apportion his to another? Oh how those translators loved to [1] run with verses & meanings - even inserting “for ever” in verses where no time word originally even is! And [2] seem to love often the most extreme application! I agree “cut in pieces.. sever in two” makes no logical sense. Considering, both the word possible uses, AND, other verses and the overall saving of “all” pas/the whole! Which we find very repeated if our ears and eyes are open.

? Unless the judgment He’s speaking of is earthly..?

Quote from: DavidFord on September 03, 2018, 04:33:15 PM

Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:43:08 PMSo many Greek manuscripts contain things that do not turn up in other versions.

In what languages are 3 of those "other versions"?
Do you think John 7:53–8:11 was part of the original John?

New American Bible (Revised Edition)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+8&version=NABRE
7:53–8:11 The story of the woman caught in adultery is a later insertion here, missing from all early Greek manuscripts. A Western text-type insertion, attested mainly in Old Latin translations, it is found in different places in different manuscripts: here, or after Jn 7:36 or at the end of this gospel, or after Lk 21:38, or at the end of that gospel. There are many non-Johannine features in the language, and there are also many doubtful readings within the passage. The style and motifs are similar to those of Luke, and it fits better with the general situation at the end of Lk 21, but it was probably inserted here because of the allusion to Jer 17:13 (cf. note on Jn 8:6) and the statement, "I do not judge anyone," in Jn 8:15. The Catholic Church accepts this passage as canonical scripture.

"The epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin."
3 illustrations in support of the claim that those "Christian communities" "first language was clearly either Greek or Latin"?
Do you think Paul's mentions of "bowels" is something that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

search for "bowels" on KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=bowels&begin=47&end=73
2 Corinthians 6:12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
Philippians 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Philemon 1:12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:
Philemon 1:20 Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels in the Lord.
1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

"whether or not any of the New Testament epistles were written in Aramaic we haven't got any surviving record of any"
The 4 gospels existed in Aramaic at the latest as of A.D. 175 (the year of Tatian's death). We presently have a surviving translation from that Aramaic into Arabic.
The Assyrian Church of the East has been faithfully and carefully recopying the Aramaic NT books they received since they received them in Aramaic.

In many languages, that's the point and your making my point for me by quoting the story of the woman caught in adultery and saying wasn't in 'older' Greek versions but is in 'newer' ones. (I'm dubious on how these are dated) So was it in the Aramaic version? That would be neat and handy.

I've always been a bit confused by the story of Jesus and the Rich Man. Jesus ends by saying that is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than a rich man to get into heaven. However, in at least one Greek manuscript of one of the gospels the word kamelos (camel) is replaced with the word kamilos (rope). Oh, well not I can see that, trying the pass a rope through the eye of a needle instead of the smaller thread designed for it. Yet this only works in Greek and seems about universally rejected because almost all Greek versions say 'camel'. This seems less likely if there were more accurate Aramaic versions laying around. This is Greek textual problem.

1. Paul was writing to Gentiles who would not have had Hebrew or Hebrew based languages as their first language.
2. Paul was big on the fact that it was not necessary for the Gentiles to become jews to become Christians, so there would be no reason for them to learn Hebrew or Hebrew based languages.
3. The were mostly historically Greek cities historically Greek influence on their culture.
4. One of them was Rome and the Romans would definitely speak Latin as its first language and maybe Greek as a second.

Don't use the KJV as an argument. The fact that bowels is the translation into English they used does not mean it is the best translation even if it remains the best translation for English readers.

So I don't know if 'bowels' would be readily understood by a speaker of Greek or not because I don't know their idioms. I know that we are translating from the Greek text so that's what we think the Greek version says what ever you think an imagined Aramaic version says.

That doesn't necessarily mean the Greek wasn't translated to Aramaic and then into Arabic and historically even the most faithful recopying tends to produce errors.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 03, 2018, 06:52:10 PM

Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:43:08 PMThe epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin.

Do you think Paul's mentions of "heart" and "eyeservice" and "the eyes of your heart" are things that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

search of KJV for "heart"
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=heart&begin=47&end=73&limit=500

Colossians 3:22
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+3%3A22&version=KJV;MOUNCE
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh;
not with eyeservice [Greek:  ophthalmodoulia], as menpleasers;
but in singleness of heart [Greek:  kardia], fearing God;

Ephesians 6:6
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A6+&version=KJV;MOUNCE
Not with eyeservice [Greek:  ophthalmodoulia],
as menpleasers;
but as the servants of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart [Greek: psyche.  I looked for a Greek manuscript with kardia but didn't find one; did KJV translators use a manuscript having kardia?]

Strong's Concordance 2588. kardia
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/2588.htm

Strong's Concordance 4641. sklerokardia (hardness of heart)
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/4641.htm

Strong's Concordance 2589. kardiognostes (knower of hearts)
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/2589.htm

Ephesians 1:18 (Disciples' Literal New Testament)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph+1%3A18&version=DLNT;MOUNCE
so that you, the eyes [Greek:  ophthalmos] of your heart [Greek:  kardia] having been enlightened,
may know what is the hope of His calling,
what is the riches of the glory of His inheritance among the saints

Idioms again, I don't know what idioms the Greeks would or wouldn't know but I suspect Paul might use them without thinking.

I am open to the possibility to that the fact that Matthew was original written in Hebrew or Aramaic because he was writing to a Hebrew audience.  The same is true for the Epistle to the Hebrews, that being in Greek is strange. But mark is taken to be written to Gentiles, Luke and Acts to one specific Gentile, these aren't likely to be originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic not when they feel the need to explain themselves every time they put Jewish/Hebrew references in.

Quote from: marie glen on September 04, 2018, 04:52:18 PMPersonally this verse, I do like the Aramaic better.

Which do you like the best:  the long KJV version of Mk 9:49, the short NASB version, or the Younan translation of the Aramaic?

Mark 9:49 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+9%3A49-50&version=KJV;NASB
For every one shall be salted with fire,
and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Mark 9:49 (based on Younan), http://www.dukhrana.com
For with fire everything will be destroyed/ vaporized/ scattered
and with salt every sacrifice will be seasoned.

Mark 9:49 (NASB)
49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.

https://bible.org/seriespage/mark-9
9:49 ....Verse 49 has many manuscript variations. These were probably due to the uncertainty of (1) how the verse related to Mark 9:48 or (2) what the verse itself meant.

Leviticus 2:13 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=offering+salt&qs_version=KJV%3BNASB
Every grain offering of yours, moreover, you shall season with salt,
so that the salt of the covenant of your God shall not be lacking from your grain offering;
with all your offerings you shall offer salt.

Per 2 Peter and Mk 9:49, all will be destroyed/ vaporized with fire.  (Appearing also in Genesis 1:1, 'the heavens and the earth' is a Hebraic 'merism,' a way of saying 'all things.')
2 Peter 3:7
(Etheridge) But the heaven which is now, and the earth, by his own word are set,
being reserved unto fire, unto the day of judgment and the perdition of wicked men.
(Murdock) And the heavens that now are, and the earth, are by his word stored up,
being reserved for the fire at the day of judgment and the perdition of wicked men.
(Lamsa) But the present heavens and earth are sustained by his word,
and are reserved for fire on the day of judgment which is the day of destruction of ungodly men.
(KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:12
(Etheridge) expecting and desiring the coming of the day of Aloha;
that (day) in which the heavens, tried with fire, shall be dissolved,
and the elements burning shall melt ?
(Murdock) expecting and desiring the coming of the day of God,
in which the heavens being tried by fire will be dissolved,
and the elements being ignited will melt ?
(Lamsa) Looking for and longing for the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being tested with fire shall be dissolved,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Quote from: CST on September 04, 2018, 05:55:20 PMIn many languages, that's the point and your making my point for me by quoting the story of the woman caught in adultery and saying wasn't in 'older' Greek versions but is in 'newer' ones. (I'm dubious on how these are dated) So was it in the Aramaic version? That would be neat and handy.

The story of the woman caught in adultery isn't in the Peshi tta.
Do you think John 7:53–8:11 was part of the original John?

QuoteI've always been a bit confused by the story of Jesus and the Rich Man. Jesus ends by saying that is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than a rich man to get into heaven. However, in at least one Greek manuscript of one of the gospels the word kamelos (camel) is replaced with the word kamilos (rope). Oh, well not I can see that, trying the pass a rope through the eye of a needle instead of the smaller thread designed for it. Yet this only works in Greek and seems about universally rejected because almost all Greek versions say 'camel'. This seems less likely if there were more accurate Aramaic versions laying around. This is Greek textual problem.

"this only works in Greek"
gmla:  1. camel/camels. 2. rope/ coarse thread.
Mt 19:23, based on Younan, http://dukhrana.com
Yeshua then said l'talmiduhi [to his students],
"Amain I say to you that,
it is difficult for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
24. And again I say to you that
it is easier l'gmla [for a rope] to enter into the eye of a needle
than (for) a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Allaha."

Most translations into Greek have "camel" instead of "rope." Observes Barnstone (2012), 19, "In converting an Aramaic proverb into Greek, through a misreading. . . a 'course thread' became a 'camel,' fortuitously creating a wondrous metaphor."
At least one Greek manuscript has the Aramaic correctly translated:

Bailey, Kenneth E. 1976, 1980. __Poet & Peasant_ and _Through Peasant Eyes: A Literary-Cultural Approach to the Parables of Luke__ (MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company), 238pp. & 187pp. On 165 of the 2nd half:
"Rather than _kamelon_, if we read _kamilon_ (as some ancient manuscripts give us) we are not talking about a large, four-footed animal but rather a rope."

Quote1. Paul was writing to Gentiles who would not have had Hebrew or Hebrew based languages as their first language.
2. Paul was big on the fact that it was not necessary for the Gentiles to become jews to become Christians, so there would be no reason for them to learn Hebrew or Hebrew based languages.
3. The were mostly historically Greek cities historically Greek influence on their culture.
4. One of them was Rome and the Romans would definitely speak Latin as its first language and maybe Greek as a second.

Do you think the book of Romans was originally written in:  Latin?  Greek?  Hebrews?

QuoteDon't use the KJV as an argument. The fact that bowels is the translation into English they used does not mean it is the best translation even if it remains the best translation for English readers.

The unpolished KJV is pointing to something very un-Greek and something very-Semitic in the Greek manuscripts:

Strong's Concordance 4698. splagchnon
https://biblehub.com/greek/4698.htm
splagchnon: the inward parts (heart, liver, lungs, etc.), fig. the emotions
Original Word: σπλάγχνα, ων, τά
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: splagchnon
Phonetic Spelling: (splangkh'-non)
Short Definition: bowels, compassion, pity
Definition: the inward parts; the heart, affections, seat of the feelings.
HELPS Word-studies
4698 splágxnon – properly, the internal organs ("viscera"); (figuratively) "gut-level compassion" (visceral feelings); the capacity to feel deep emotions (sympathy, empathy, etc.) ....
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4698: σπλάγχνον
σπλάγχνον, σπλαγχνου, τό, and (only so in the N. T.) plural σπλάγχνα, σπλάγχνων, τά, Hebrew רַחֲמִים, bowels, intestines (the heart, lungs, liver, etc.);
a. properly: Acts 1:18 (2 Macc. 9:5f; 4 Macc. 5:29, and in Greek writings from Homer down).
b. in the Greek poets from Aeschylus down the bowels were regarded as the seat of the more violent passions, such as anger and love; but by the Hebrews as the seat of the tenderer affections, especially kindness, benevolence, compassion (cf. Lightfoot on Philippians 1:8; Winers Grammar, 18); hence, equivalent to our heart (tender mercies, affections, etc. ....

QuoteSo I don't know if 'bowels' would be readily understood by a speaker of Greek or not because I don't know their idioms.

See above.

QuoteI know that we are translating from the Greek text so that's what we think the Greek version says what ever you think an imagined Aramaic version says.

When the KJV speaks of kidneys, hearts, bowels, faces, and eyes-- as did Hebrew-speakers often-- that's an invitation to take a closer look at the Greek.

QuoteThat doesn't necessarily mean the Greek wasn't translated to Aramaic and then into Arabic and historically even the most faithful recopying tends to produce errors.

The Greek mss. have numerous errors.  The Aramaic mss., not so much.

QuoteIdioms again, I don't know what idioms the Greeks would or wouldn't know but I suspect Paul might use them without thinking.

I'm sure that 'Hebrew of the Hebrews' Paul did "use them without thinking.

QuoteI am open to the possibility to that the fact that Matthew was original written in Hebrew or Aramaic because he was writing to a Hebrew audience.  The same is true for the Epistle to the Hebrews, that being in Greek is strange.

OK.

QuoteBut mark is taken to be written to Gentiles, Luke and Acts to one specific Gentile, these aren't likely to be originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic not when they feel the need to explain themselves every time they put Jewish/Hebrew references in.

What are the main reasons leading you to conclude that "these aren't likely to be originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic"?
Which do you prefer:  Mk 10:51-52 translated from Greek, or Aramaic?
In the Greek, Jesus follows up his question by telling the beggar to go,
while in the Aramaic, Jesus follows up his question by telling the beggar to see.

Mk 10:51-52 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2010%3A51-52&version=KJV;MOUNCE;NIV
51 "What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him.
The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see."
52 "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you."
Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Mk 10:51-52 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
51.  Yeshua said to him,
"What is it (that) you desire me to do for you?"
And the blind man said to him, "Rabbi, that I may see!"  52.  And Yeshua said to him,
"See. 
Your faith has made you whole."
And immediately he saw, and went off down the road.

It's true there was a lot of explaining Aramaic names and such.. I never really noticed that before.  :dontknow:

 :Chinscratch: Jesus was called "Rabbi", that's very Hebraic.

Mark 9:49 I like better in the NASB, but the rest in the Lamsa..

I forgot about Hebrews.. but i wonder also about 1 Peter..
:Peace2:

Quote from: CST on September 04, 2018, 05:55:20 PMmark is taken to be written to Gentiles, Luke and Acts to one specific Gentile, these aren't likely to be originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic

Are you OK with Greek manuscripts rendering every 'lord' as 'kyrios'?
Which do you prefer:  Lk 2:11 in the Greek, or in the Aramaic?

Lk 2:11 (NIV)
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you;
he is the Messiah, the Lord [Greek:  Christos kyrios].
Lk 2:11 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
For today is born to you in the medintha [city] of Dawid the Paruqa [Deliverer]
who is MrYa [Master YHWH], the Meshikha [Messiah/ Anointed One].

Which do you prefer:  Mk 12:35-37 in the Greek, or in the Aramaic?

Mk 12:35-37 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012%3A35-37&version=NIV;MOUNCE
35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked,
"Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David?
36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
"'The Lord [Greek:  kyrios] said to my Lord [Greek:  kyrios]:
    "Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
    under your feet."'
37 David himself calls him 'Lord.' [Greek: kyrios] 
How then can he be his son?"
The large crowd listened to him with delight.

Mk 12:35-37 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
35. And Yeshua, while teaching in the temple, answered and said,
"How do the Sapra [Scribes] say that the Meshikha is the son of Dawid?
36. For Dawid spoke by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] that,
Said MrYa to Mari [Master YHWH to my Lord],
Sit on my right until I place your enemies (as) a footstool under your feet'.'
37. Since Dawid calls him 'Mari,' [my Lord]
how then is he his son?"
And all of the crowd were gladly hearing him.

What's your opinion of the translation and commentary below?
Acts 12:20 (based on Younan)
And because he [Herod] was angry at the Tyrians and at the Sidonians, they gathered and came to him as one and persuaded Blastus, the chamberlain of the malka [king], and asked of him that (they) might have shayna [peace; cultivated land], because the provision of their country was from the kingdom of Herodus.
[re: shayna, the Greek versions took this Aramaic word to mean "peace"; a possible secondary meaning of the word is "cultivated land"; a famine (cf. Acts 11:28) or Herod's hostility might have prompted a desire for peace, and/or for cultivated land. - based on Paul Younan remarks.  'Shayna' can mean tranquility/peace-- see Lk 11:21, Lk 12:51, and esp. Acts 10:36.  For Acts 12:20's and James 3:18's 'shayna,' it could go as 'peace,' and could also go as 'cultivated land.'

Quote from: marie glen on September 05, 2018, 04:39:05 AMJesus was called "Rabbi", that's very Hebraic.
Mark 9:49 I like better in the NASB, but the rest in the Lamsa..
I forgot about Hebrews.. but i wonder also about 1 Peter

What do you wonder about 1 Peter?
The Greek manuscripts contain numerous transliterations-- usually without but sometimes with accompanying definitions supplied-- of Hebrew and Aramaic words, e.g., amen.

Strong's Concordance 281. amén
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/281.htm
amén: truly
Original Word: ἀμήν
Part of Speech: Hebrew Form (Indclinable)
Transliteration: amén
Phonetic Spelling: (am-ane')
Short Definition: verily, truly, amen, so let it be
Definition: verily, truly, amen; at the end of sentences may be paraphrased by: So let it be.

What do you wonder about re: 1 Peter?
What does this mean to you?:
Mark 9:49 (NASB)
"For everyone will be salted with fire.

Quote from: marie glen on September 04, 2018, 04:43:44 PM
Here's a great example of confused translation.. whether due to language or letter mixup I know not :gsmile:

Can a camel or a rope go through the eye of a needle? Obviously neither one.
Now it sounds more logical Jesus would use rope as the example.. than a camel! Yet how much did it change the intent of what Jesus said?

Look a bit at the context.
It's hard for rich people to enter heaven.
A thick rope has many strands, which have even more fibers.
Look at each one as a dollar in a persons bank account.

A rich man is no longer rich when the dollars are gone from his bank account.
Likewise a rope is no longer a rope when most of it is removed.

So a rope needs to become thin on fibers and a rich man thin on money.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 05, 2018, 12:47:34 AM

Quote from: marie glen on September 04, 2018, 04:52:18 PMPersonally this verse, I do like the Aramaic better.

Which do you like the best:  the long KJV version of Mk 9:49, the short NASB version, or the Younan translation of the Aramaic?

Mark 9:49 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+9%3A49-50&version=KJV;NASB
For every one shall be salted with fire,
and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Mark 9:49 (based on Younan), http://www.dukhrana.com
For with fire everything will be destroyed/ vaporized/ scattered
and with salt every sacrifice will be seasoned.

Mark 9:49 (NASB)
49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.

https://bible.org/seriespage/mark-9
9:49 ....Verse 49 has many manuscript variations. These were probably due to the uncertainty of (1) how the verse related to Mark 9:48 or (2) what the verse itself meant.

Leviticus 2:13 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=offering+salt&qs_version=KJV%3BNASB
Every grain offering of yours, moreover, you shall season with salt,
so that the salt of the covenant of your God shall not be lacking from your grain offering;
with all your offerings you shall offer salt.

Per 2 Peter and Mk 9:49, all will be destroyed/ vaporized with fire.  (Appearing also in Genesis 1:1, 'the heavens and the earth' is a Hebraic 'merism,' a way of saying 'all things.')
2 Peter 3:7
(Etheridge) But the heaven which is now, and the earth, by his own word are set,
being reserved unto fire, unto the day of judgment and the perdition of wicked men.
(Murdock) And the heavens that now are, and the earth, are by his word stored up,
being reserved for the fire at the day of judgment and the perdition of wicked men.
(Lamsa) But the present heavens and earth are sustained by his word,
and are reserved for fire on the day of judgment which is the day of destruction of ungodly men.
(KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:12
(Etheridge) expecting and desiring the coming of the day of Aloha;
that (day) in which the heavens, tried with fire, shall be dissolved,
and the elements burning shall melt ?
(Murdock) expecting and desiring the coming of the day of God,
in which the heavens being tried by fire will be dissolved,
and the elements being ignited will melt ?
(Lamsa) Looking for and longing for the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being tested with fire shall be dissolved,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

First, stop throwing various versions at us and asking us which we 'prefer' as if our preference has any bearing on which is the  correct original version. Our preference towards something is no measure of truth. Altghough on this matter the Younan is clearly my least favourite.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 05, 2018, 04:18:59 AM

Quote from: CST on September 04, 2018, 05:55:20 PMIn many languages, that's the point and your making my point for me by quoting the story of the woman caught in adultery and saying wasn't in 'older' Greek versions but is in 'newer' ones. (I'm dubious on how these are dated) So was it in the Aramaic version? That would be neat and handy.

The story of the woman caught in adultery isn't in the Peshi tta.
Do you think John 7:53–8:11 was part of the original John?

QuoteI've always been a bit confused by the story of Jesus and the Rich Man. Jesus ends by saying that is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than a rich man to get into heaven. However, in at least one Greek manuscript of one of the gospels the word kamelos (camel) is replaced with the word kamilos (rope). Oh, well not I can see that, trying the pass a rope through the eye of a needle instead of the smaller thread designed for it. Yet this only works in Greek and seems about universally rejected because almost all Greek versions say 'camel'. This seems less likely if there were more accurate Aramaic versions laying around. This is Greek textual problem.

"this only works in Greek"
gmla:  1. camel/camels. 2. rope/ coarse thread.
Mt 19:23, based on Younan, http://dukhrana.com
Yeshua then said l'talmiduhi [to his students],
"Amain I say to you that,
it is difficult for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
24. And again I say to you that
it is easier l'gmla [for a rope] to enter into the eye of a needle
than (for) a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Allaha."

Most translations into Greek have "camel" instead of "rope." Observes Barnstone (2012), 19, "In converting an Aramaic proverb into Greek, through a misreading. . . a 'course thread' became a 'camel,' fortuitously creating a wondrous metaphor."
At least one Greek manuscript has the Aramaic correctly translated:

Bailey, Kenneth E. 1976, 1980. __Poet & Peasant_ and _Through Peasant Eyes: A Literary-Cultural Approach to the Parables of Luke__ (MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company), 238pp. & 187pp. On 165 of the 2nd half:
"Rather than _kamelon_, if we read _kamilon_ (as some ancient manuscripts give us) we are not talking about a large, four-footed animal but rather a rope."

Quote1. Paul was writing to Gentiles who would not have had Hebrew or Hebrew based languages as their first language.
2. Paul was big on the fact that it was not necessary for the Gentiles to become jews to become Christians, so there would be no reason for them to learn Hebrew or Hebrew based languages.
3. The were mostly historically Greek cities historically Greek influence on their culture.
4. One of them was Rome and the Romans would definitely speak Latin as its first language and maybe Greek as a second.

Do you think the book of Romans was originally written in:  Latin?  Greek?  Hebrews?

QuoteDon't use the KJV as an argument. The fact that bowels is the translation into English they used does not mean it is the best translation even if it remains the best translation for English readers.

The unpolished KJV is pointing to something very un-Greek and something very-Semitic in the Greek manuscripts:

Strong's Concordance 4698. splagchnon
https://biblehub.com/greek/4698.htm
splagchnon: the inward parts (heart, liver, lungs, etc.), fig. the emotions
Original Word: σπλάγχνα, ων, τά
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: splagchnon
Phonetic Spelling: (splangkh'-non)
Short Definition: bowels, compassion, pity
Definition: the inward parts; the heart, affections, seat of the feelings.
HELPS Word-studies
4698 splágxnon – properly, the internal organs ("viscera"); (figuratively) "gut-level compassion" (visceral feelings); the capacity to feel deep emotions (sympathy, empathy, etc.) ....
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4698: σπλάγχνον
σπλάγχνον, σπλαγχνου, τό, and (only so in the N. T.) plural σπλάγχνα, σπλάγχνων, τά, Hebrew רַחֲמִים, bowels, intestines (the heart, lungs, liver, etc.);
a. properly: Acts 1:18 (2 Macc. 9:5f; 4 Macc. 5:29, and in Greek writings from Homer down).
b. in the Greek poets from Aeschylus down the bowels were regarded as the seat of the more violent passions, such as anger and love; but by the Hebrews as the seat of the tenderer affections, especially kindness, benevolence, compassion (cf. Lightfoot on Philippians 1:8; Winers Grammar, 18); hence, equivalent to our heart (tender mercies, affections, etc. ....

QuoteSo I don't know if 'bowels' would be readily understood by a speaker of Greek or not because I don't know their idioms.

See above.

QuoteI know that we are translating from the Greek text so that's what we think the Greek version says what ever you think an imagined Aramaic version says.

When the KJV speaks of kidneys, hearts, bowels, faces, and eyes-- as did Hebrew-speakers often-- that's an invitation to take a closer look at the Greek.

QuoteThat doesn't necessarily mean the Greek wasn't translated to Aramaic and then into Arabic and historically even the most faithful recopying tends to produce errors.

The Greek mss. have numerous errors.  The Aramaic mss., not so much.

QuoteIdioms again, I don't know what idioms the Greeks would or wouldn't know but I suspect Paul might use them without thinking.

I'm sure that 'Hebrew of the Hebrews' Paul did "use them without thinking.

QuoteI am open to the possibility to that the fact that Matthew was original written in Hebrew or Aramaic because he was writing to a Hebrew audience.  The same is true for the Epistle to the Hebrews, that being in Greek is strange.

OK.

QuoteBut mark is taken to be written to Gentiles, Luke and Acts to one specific Gentile, these aren't likely to be originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic not when they feel the need to explain themselves every time they put Jewish/Hebrew references in.

What are the main reasons leading you to conclude that "these aren't likely to be originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic"?
Which do you prefer:  Mk 10:51-52 translated from Greek, or Aramaic?
In the Greek, Jesus follows up his question by telling the beggar to go,
while in the Aramaic, Jesus follows up his question by telling the beggar to see.

Mk 10:51-52 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2010%3A51-52&version=KJV;MOUNCE;NIV
51 "What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him.
The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see."
52 "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you."
Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Mk 10:51-52 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
51.  Yeshua said to him,
"What is it (that) you desire me to do for you?"
And the blind man said to him, "Rabbi, that I may see!"  52.  And Yeshua said to him,
"See. 
Your faith has made you whole."
And immediately he saw, and went off down the road.

Do I think the story of the woman caught in adultery is in the original? More to the point how much does it matter if it isn't? That is isn't in the Pecrapta is interesting but what's most interesting is that it's in multiple versions of John and at least one of Luke have been written which it seems to have been added to.

That suggests that on at least three occasions three different communities have felt compelled to add this to there texts but didn't know where to put it. It's also possible that it was put in the original, removed by someone who question it veracity of wondered why the Pharisees were listening to Jesus, if they're actually free to stone the woman for adultery they don't need Jesus' permission. It's possible that the people who translated the Greek to the Aramaic that became the Pecrapta didn't have a version with it in or else where part of a tradition that doubted its veracity. It absence from certain manuscripts, even the earliest, is not necessarily final proof it should not be there.

Useful to know that the Aramaic appears to say rope. But I should point out that this feature seems only to be found in Greek versions of Matthew, which as I say, I'm slightly more inclined to believe has Hebrew or Aramaic roots.

I believe Romans was originally written in Greek. I don't think there's any suggestion by anyone it was originally written in Latin. I don't know much about the history of Latin. Certain members of the early church may have written in Greek as a means to increase the chance of concealing the content of the documents from nosy Romans though that doesn't seem to likely because Greek documents would start sitting out like a sore thumb. Hebrew and Aramaic definitely would.

It's possible Paul did write his epistles in Aramaic but immediately had them translated into Greek before transmission. The Aramaic ones were never intended to be seen or read by anyone other than the translator which may also have been Paul.

I don't have that much trouble understanding the 'bowels' idioms when translated into English why to you suppose the Greeks would? My point about idioms here is that Paul may have used them because they came naturally to them without realizing that they might not make as much sense to his Greek audience. And anyway, I don't think his Greek speaking readers were likely to be in a complete vacuum in regards to Hebrew and Aramaic. At least some of the people sustaining and running the church would likely have such roots and fill them in.

The Greek manuscripts seem to vastly outnumber the Aramaic ones. Obviously in those incidents the incidence of errors increase. After all most errors are spotted by comparing where the Greek manuscripts disagree.

I've told you many of my main reasons for believing the Greek provenance of the books of the New Testament. The Greek of the people they were originally sent to and the number of times Hebrew references are explained to that audience in them. That and I don't think all the atheist scholars out there are invested in saying they were originally in Greek if the evidence suggests otherwise.

As for your comparative example? i see no significant difference that couldn't be put down by how different translators chose to express the passage in English. For all I know the translation you have given for the Aramaic another translator may think just as valid for the Greek.

Once there were two young friends who enjoyed reading stories and poetry. When they were a little older, one of the friends travelled to another country because there was much work there.

Many years later the friend returned to his childhood home and met his old friend, now a farmer, for the first time in 15 years.

"How did you cope with being away from your friends and family for so long?" said the farmer friend.

"Oh, I was fine, I made friends with the locals and I also had a most wonderful book full of stories with rhymes, teasing alternative meanings, and cultural treasures, which kept me fully enthralled for many a night!" replied the friend enthusiastically, and he sold it to his friend for a sack of corn.

When the friend took his new book home to read, he discovered it was in the language of the country that his friend had lived in for 15 years, so he took it to the baker's wife who was from that country, and after a few months she had translated it for him in exchange for a sack of barley.

Now, after many weeks of reading, the farmer was most disappointed with his new book, and he was even more unhappy with his old friend. He thought to himself:

"How mediocre this book is, there is no poetry in it, no depth or richness in the words, and I find what there are of cultural messages to be flat and unexciting. My friend has surely become a dishonest fox while he has been away. I now have 2 books that are good for nothing except to light my evening fire". And, with that, he placed the books on the hearth and set a flame to them.

.

Quote from: lastpost on September 05, 2018, 07:43:32 PM
Once there were two young friends who enjoyed reading stories and poetry. When they were a little older, one of the friends travelled to another country because there was much work there.

Many years later the friend returned to his childhood home and met his old friend, now a farmer, for the first time in 15 years.

"How did you cope with being away from your friends and family for so long?" said the farmer friend.

"Oh, I was fine, I made friends with the locals and I also had a most wonderful book full of stories with rhymes, teasing alternative meanings, and cultural treasures, which kept me fully enthralled for many a night!" replied the friend enthusiastically, and he sold it to his friend for a sack of corn.

When the friend took his new book home to read, he discovered it was in the language of the country that his friend had lived in for 15 years, so he took it to the baker's wife who was from that country, and after a few months she had translated it for him in exchange for a sack of barley.

Now, after many weeks of reading, the farmer was most disappointed with his new book, and he was even more unhappy with his old friend. He thought to himself:

"What mediocre this book is, there is no poetry in it, no depth or richness in the words, and I find what there are of cultural messages to be flat and unexciting. My friend has surely become a dishonest fox while he has been away. I now have 2 books that are good for nothing except to light my evening fire". And, with that, he placed the books on the hearth and set a flame to them.

Is this a true story?

As far as I know it is not based on fact.

Quote from: marie glen on September 04, 2018, 01:12:26 AM
I just noticed my iphone auto-corrected Pecrapta / Pe$hitta in one of my replies to read Pecrapta - I can only imagine the confusion if you read it..

I think I will take that word out of the forum filter.  More likely to show up in this usage as the other I would guess.  We'll see how it goes :)

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMFirst, stop throwing various versions at us and asking us which we 'prefer' as if our preference has any bearing on which is the  correct original version. Our preference towards something is no measure of truth. Altghough on this matter the Younan is clearly my least favourite.

Mental note:  don't ask CST for a preference of a verse rendition.
Paul Younan is a native Aramaic speaker and an honest translator.  His interlinear for Mt-Acts 16 is freely available for inspection.
Which of these do you suspect is correct?:

Mt 27 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2027%3A9-10&version=NKJV;MOUNCE;NIV
9 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah [Greek:  Ieremias] the prophet, saying,
"And they took the thirty pieces of silver,
the value of Him who was priced,
whom they of the children of Israel priced,
10 and gave them for the potter's field,
as the Lord [Greek: kyrios] directed me."

Mt 27 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
9. Then the thing was fulfilled which was spoken of by the nabia [prophet] who said,
"I took the thirty (pieces) of silver,
the price of the precious one
which (those) from the sons of Israel agreed upon.
10. And I gave them for the field of the potter
as MrYa [Master YHWH] commanded me."

Mt 27:9-10 (NIV)
9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah [Greek:  Ieremias] the prophet was fulfilled:
"They took the thirty pieces of silver,
the price set on him by the people of Israel,
10 and they used them to buy the potter's field,
as the Lord [Greek: kyrios] commanded me."[a]
Footnotes:
Matthew 27:10 See Zech. 11:12,13; Jer. 19:1-13; 32:6-9.

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMas if our preference has any bearing on which is the  correct original version. Our preference towards something is no measure of truth

Do you think this is a true statement?:

Mt 1:17 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201&version=NKJV;MOUNCE
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations,
from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations,
and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

Which of the Mt 1:16 renditions below do you consider correct?

Mt 1:16 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201&version=NKJV;MOUNCE
And Jacob begot Joseph the husband [Greek:  anēr] of Mary,
of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

Mt 1:16 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
Yaqub fathered Yosip, the gowra [protective-male] of Maryam,
from whom was born Yeshua, who is called the Meshikha.

[Pronounced "gowra," GBRA literally means 'protective male.' It is unclear whether the text refers to Maryam's father or to her husband. --Paul Younan. PY had 'kinsman.' Roth used 'guardian.' Mt says it is 14 + 14 + 14 generations in the next paragraph, verse 17. The Josip in the paragraph starting with verse 18 is a different Josip. Interestingly, the next paragraph, paragraph 18, opens with a thought-switcher. Observes Lataster about thought-switchers,
"Another Aramaic word which causes problems for translators is Nyd which really has no equivalent in English, but it is more of a 'thought-switcher' - some English words come close to translating it - like 'And, For, But, Now, However'." - Lataster, 115. See also Younan's article "Mistranslating the Genealogies of Yeshua" in Lataster.]

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMpreference towards something is no measure of truth

Re:  Mt 2:23, do you think:
"prophets" plural is correct?
"prophet" singular is correct?

the Greek 'prophets' in Mt 2:23 is Plural
https://biblehub.com/greek/prophe_to_n_4396.htm
Englishman's Concordance
προφητῶν (prophētōn) — 32 Occurrences
Matthew 2:23 N-GMP
GRK: διὰ τῶν προφητῶν ὅτι Ναζωραῖος
NAS: through the prophets: He shall be called
KJV: by the prophets,
INT: through the prophets that a Nazarene

Mt 2:23 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
And he came (and) dwelled in the medintha [city] that is called Nasrath,
so that might be fulfilled the thing which was spoken b'nabia [by the prophet] that,
"He will be called a Nasraya."

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMas if our preference has any bearing on which is the  correct original version

Do you think this is a true statement?:
In Mt 10:5, Greek mss. have, "Do not go into the city of the Samaritans."

'city' in Mt 10:5 is Singular in Greek mss.
https://biblehub.com/greek/polin_4172.htm
Matthew 10:5 N-AFS
GRK: καὶ εἰς πόλιν Σαμαριτῶν μὴ
NAS: and do not enter [any] city of the Samaritans;
KJV: into [any] city of the Samaritans
INT: and into a city of [the] Samaritians not

Which of the renditions below do you consider correct?

Mt 10:5 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+10%3A5&version=NASB;MOUNCE
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them:
"Do not go in _the_ way of _the_ Gentiles,
and do not enter _any_ city of the Samaritans;

Mt 10:5 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
Yeshua sent these twelve and commanded them and said,
"By the way of the heathen do not go,
a'l'medintha [and to the cities] of the Samaritans do not enter.

Quote from: lastpost on September 05, 2018, 07:43:32 PM
Once there were two young friends who enjoyed reading stories and poetry. When they were a little older, one of the friends travelled to another country because there was much work there.

Many years later the friend returned to his childhood home and met his old friend, now a farmer, for the first time in 15 years.

"How did you cope with being away from your friends and family for so long?" said the farmer friend.

"Oh, I was fine, I made friends with the locals and I also had a most wonderful book full of stories with rhymes, teasing alternative meanings, and cultural treasures, which kept me fully enthralled for many a night!" replied the friend enthusiastically, and he sold it to his friend for a sack of corn.

When the friend took his new book home to read, he discovered it was in the language of the country that his friend had lived in for 15 years, so he took it to the baker's wife who was from that country, and after a few months she had translated it for him in exchange for a sack of barley.

Now, after many weeks of reading, the farmer was most disappointed with his new book, and he was even more unhappy with his old friend. He thought to himself:

"How mediocre this book is, there is no poetry in it, no depth or richness in the words, and I find what there are of cultural messages to be flat and unexciting. My friend has surely become a dishonest fox while he has been away. I now have 2 books that are good for nothing except to light my evening fire". And, with that, he placed the books on the hearth and set a flame to them.

.

Wow, you've tried to write a parable. Sometimes I try to do that but I'm not sure I'm ever terribly good at it. I also sometimes find myself expanding the parables Jesus gave us, I can't help doing it but I'm not sure it's a good idea.

I'm not sure if this parable of yours entirely works as you intend either but it's interesting to read.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 06, 2018, 04:29:50 AM

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMFirst, stop throwing various versions at us and asking us which we 'prefer' as if our preference has any bearing on which is the  correct original version. Our preference towards something is no measure of truth. Altghough on this matter the Younan is clearly my least favourite.

Mental note:  don't ask CST for a preference of a verse rendition.
Paul Younan is a native Aramaic speaker and an honest translator.  His interlinear for Mt-Acts 16 is freely available for inspection.
Which of these do you suspect is correct?:

Mt 27 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2027%3A9-10&version=NKJV;MOUNCE;NIV
9 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah [Greek:  Ieremias] the prophet, saying,
"And they took the thirty pieces of silver,
the value of Him who was priced,
whom they of the children of Israel priced,
10 and gave them for the potter's field,
as the Lord [Greek: kyrios] directed me."

Mt 27 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
9. Then the thing was fulfilled which was spoken of by the nabia [prophet] who said,
"I took the thirty (pieces) of silver,
the price of the precious one
which (those) from the sons of Israel agreed upon.
10. And I gave them for the field of the potter
as MrYa [Master YHWH] commanded me."

Mt 27:9-10 (NIV)
9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah [Greek:  Ieremias] the prophet was fulfilled:
"They took the thirty pieces of silver,
the price set on him by the people of Israel,
10 and they used them to buy the potter's field,
as the Lord [Greek: kyrios] commanded me."[a]
Footnotes:
Matthew 27:10 See Zech. 11:12,13; Jer. 19:1-13; 32:6-9.

Hmm, if I said the NKJV or the NIV would you take me at my word and consider the matter settled? Or would you just think I was wrong? I was about to thank you for agreeing not to ask my preference but all you did was ask me my preference based on a more narrow set of qualifications.

But to answer your question, if the text has the name of God (YHWH) in it then no I do not consider it correct because I know that that name which shall not be used falsely according to what we call the Ten Commandments came to be held as sacrosanct by Jews and they would not use it. As I know that the Hebrew word 'Adonai' (Lord) came to be substituted for it I'm  not at all surprised that the Greek word meaning the same thing might (but also might not) be put in its place.
I also think a Yahwist who then translated the Greek to Aramaic might then imagine (rightly or wrongly) the original writer meant YHWH and put that in their translation. Your argument proves nothing. And my authority on identifying evidence to 'suspect' which is true is little better than my personal preference.

And I do not doubt that Paul Younan is sincere, that doesn't mean all the translators of the Greek NT are not. There's a difference between being sincere and being correct. Paul Younan's translation could, for his part, be both sincere and correct yet incorrect because it is based on an incorrect Aramaic translation of a Greek original.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 06, 2018, 05:22:36 AM

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMas if our preference has any bearing on which is the  correct original version. Our preference towards something is no measure of truth

Do you think this is a true statement?:

Mt 1:17 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201&version=NKJV;MOUNCE
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations,
from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations,
and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

Which of the Mt 1:16 renditions below do you consider correct?

Mt 1:16 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201&version=NKJV;MOUNCE
And Jacob begot Joseph the husband [Greek:  anēr] of Mary,
of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

Mt 1:16 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
Yaqub fathered Yosip, the gowra [protective-male] of Maryam,
from whom was born Yeshua, who is called the Meshikha.

[Pronounced "gowra," GBRA literally means 'protective male.' It is unclear whether the text refers to Maryam's father or to her husband. --Paul Younan. PY had 'kinsman.' Roth used 'guardian.' Mt says it is 14 + 14 + 14 generations in the next paragraph, verse 17. The Josip in the paragraph starting with verse 18 is a different Josip. Interestingly, the next paragraph, paragraph 18, opens with a thought-switcher. Observes Lataster about thought-switchers,
"Another Aramaic word which causes problems for translators is Nyd which really has no equivalent in English, but it is more of a 'thought-switcher' - some English words come close to translating it - like 'And, For, But, Now, However'." - Lataster, 115. See also Younan's article "Mistranslating the Genealogies of Yeshua" in Lataster.]

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 06, 2018, 06:08:47 AM

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMpreference towards something is no measure of truth

Re:  Mt 2:23, do you think:
"prophets" plural is correct?
"prophet" singular is correct?

the Greek 'prophets' in Mt 2:23 is Plural
https://biblehub.com/greek/prophe_to_n_4396.htm
Englishman's Concordance
προφητῶν (prophētōn) — 32 Occurrences
Matthew 2:23 N-GMP
GRK: διὰ τῶν προφητῶν ὅτι Ναζωραῖος
NAS: through the prophets: He shall be called
KJV: by the prophets,
INT: through the prophets that a Nazarene

Mt 2:23 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
And he came (and) dwelled in the medintha [city] that is called Nasrath,
so that might be fulfilled the thing which was spoken b'nabia [by the prophet] that,
"He will be called a Nasraya."

Given that Nazareth isn't mentioned at all in the Old Testament, I'd have to say neither to be honest. I don't doubt that one of them is correct. But there seems to be no way from the Bible to know which prophet or prophets foresaw this.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 06, 2018, 06:40:31 AM

Quote from: CST on September 05, 2018, 01:01:35 PMas if our preference has any bearing on which is the  correct original version

Do you think this is a true statement?:
In Mt 10:5, Greek mss. have, "Do not go into the city of the Samaritans."

'city' in Mt 10:5 is Singular in Greek mss.
https://biblehub.com/greek/polin_4172.htm
Matthew 10:5 N-AFS
GRK: καὶ εἰς πόλιν Σαμαριτῶν μὴ
NAS: and do not enter [any] city of the Samaritans;
KJV: into [any] city of the Samaritans
INT: and into a city of [the] Samaritians not

Which of the renditions below do you consider correct?

Mt 10:5 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+10%3A5&version=NASB;MOUNCE
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them:
"Do not go in _the_ way of _the_ Gentiles,
and do not enter _any_ city of the Samaritans;

Mt 10:5 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
Yeshua sent these twelve and commanded them and said,
"By the way of the heathen do not go,
a'l'medintha [and to the cities] of the Samaritans do not enter.

They are both correct since they both say essentially the same thing.

Quote from: CST on September 06, 2018, 01:33:52 PM
Hmm, if I said the NKJV or the NIV would you take me at my word and consider the matter settled? Or would you just think I was wrong? I was about to thank you for agreeing not to ask my preference but all you did was ask me my preference based on a more narrow set of qualifications.
But to answer your question, if the text has the name of God (YHWH) in it then no I do not consider it correct because I know that that name which shall not be used falsely according to what we call the Ten Commandments came to be held as sacrosanct by Jews and they would not use it. As I know that the Hebrew word 'Adonai' (Lord) came to be substituted for it I'm  not at all surprised that the Greek word meaning the same thing might (but also might not) be put in its place.
I also think a Yahwist who then translated the Greek to Aramaic might then imagine (rightly or wrongly) the original writer meant YHWH and put that in their translation. Your argument proves nothing. And my authority on identifying evidence to 'suspect' which is true is little better than my personal preference.
And I do not doubt that Paul Younan is sincere, that doesn't mean all the translators of the Greek NT are not. There's a difference between being sincere and being correct. Paul Younan's translation could, for his part, be both sincere and correct yet incorrect because it is based on an incorrect Aramaic translation of a Greek original.

"if I said the NKJV or the NIV would you take me at my word and consider the matter settled? Or would you just think I was wrong?"
If you said you were quoting the NKJV or the NIV, I'd probably take you at your word.

"if the text has the name of God (YHWH) in it then no I do not consider it correct"
The text has "mrya," which in almost-all instances stands for "Master YHWH"—see below.

"that name which shall not be used falsely according to what we call the Ten Commandments came to be held as sacrosanct by Jews and they would not use it"
Are you saying that the ancient Jews:   didn't pronounce YHWH?  didn't write YHWH in their OT manuscripts?

QuoteI don't know what you're trying to say here.

Which if any of these statements do you consider correct?:
Matthew 1:17 says there are 14, 14, 14 generations.
Greek mss. of Matthew's genealogy list 14, 14, 13 generations.
In Aramaic mss. of Matthew's genealogy, with Mt 1:16's "gbra" translated as father/guardian, Matthew's genealogy lists 14, 14, 14 generations.
Mary had a father/guardian named Joseph (plus a husband also called Joseph).

Mt 7:9 (from Aramaic)
Or whom among you gbra [fathers],
that (if) his son asks of him bread,
why to him would hold out a rock?

"YHWH" in the Peshi tta
The Assyrian Church of the East's Peshi tta has the Aramaic equivalent of the Hebrew "YHWH."  It has the letters "mrya" which are almost-always representative of "Master YHWH."  The listing below doesn't cover any instances of "mrya" that might be in the "Western Five" books (II Peter, II John, III John, Jude and Revelation). The Church of the East reveres those 5 books and encourages their study, but they don't read from them during their church services-- unlike the other 22 NT books.  The *ed instances of the letters "mrya" don't mean "Master YHWH," are pronounced differently, and are discussed below.

Mt 1:20, 1:22, 1:24, 2:13, 2:15, 2:19, 3:3, 4:7, 4:10, 5:33, 12:4, 21:9, 21:42, 22:37, 22:43, 22:44, 22:45, 23:39, 27:10, 28:2
Mk 1:3, 2:26, 5:19, 11:9, 12:11, 12:29, 12:29, 12:30, 12:36, 13:20
Lk 1:6, 1:9, 1:11, 1:15, 1:16, 1:17, 1:25, 1:32, 1:38, 1:45, 1:46, 1:66, 1:68, 1:76, 2:9, 2:11, 2:15, 2:22, 2:23, 2:23, 2:24, 2:26, 2:38, 2:39, 3:4, 4:8, 4:12, 4:18, 4:19, 5:17, 6:4, 10:27, 13:35, 17:29, 19:38, 20:37, 20:42
Jn 1:23, 12:13, 12:38
Acts 1:24, 2:20, 2:21, 2:34, 2:36, 2:38, 3:19, 3:22, 4:24, 4:26, 4:29, 5:9, 5:14, 5:19, 6:3, 7:30, 7:31, 7:33, 7:37, 7:49, 8:26, 8:39, 9:10, 9:15, 9:27, 10:36, 11:21, 11:21, 12:7, 12:11, 12:17, 12:23, 13:10, 13:11, 13:12, 13:49, 14:3, 14:25, 14:26, 15:17, 15:17, 16:32, 18:9, 18:25, 18:26, 19:10

Romans 9:28, 9:29, 10:12, 10:13, 11:34, 14:9, 14:11, 14:14, 15:11, 16:6*
1Cor 1:31, 2:16, 3:5, 3:20, 4:4, 4:5, 4:17, 4:19, 7:17, 8:6, 10:26, 11:27, 11:27, 11:29, 12:3, 12:5, 14:21, 15:47, 15:58, 15:58, 16:10
2Cor 2:12, 3:16, 3:17, 3:17, 3:18, 3:18, 6:17, 6:18, 10:17, 10:18
Eph 2:21, 4:5, 4:17, 5:19, 6:9*
Philippians 2:11, 2:29
Colossians 3:22, 3:24, 4:1*, 4:7

2Thess 3:3
1Timothy 6:2*
2Timothy 2:19, 2:19
Hebrews 6:3, 7:21, 8:8, 8:9, 8:10, 8:11, 10:16, 10:30, 12:5, 12:6, 13:5
James 1:7, 3:9, 4:10, 4:15, 5:4, 5:7, 5:10, 5:11, 5:11
1 Peter 2:3, 3:12, 3:12, 3:15, 5:3*

Re:  the *ed items, their letters "mrya" don't mean "Master YHWH," but rather, considerations of grammar and of context reveal that those instances of the letters "mrya" have another meaning:

Ephesians 6:9 (Lamsa)
Also, masters [mrya], do the same things for your servants,
forgiving their faults,
because you also have your own Master [mrkun:  your Master] in heaven;
and there is no respect of persons with him.

Colossians 4:1 (Etheridge)
Masters [mrya], do equity and justice to your servants,
knowing that you also have a Master [mra] in heaven.

1 Timothy 6:2 (Etheridge)
But let not those who have believing masters [mrya] slight them,
because they are their brethren;
but serve them the more,
because they are believers,
and beloved who are refreshed by their ministry.
These things teach and require of them.

1 Peter 5:3 (Lamsa)
Live not as overlords [mrya] over the flock,
but as good examples to them.

Romans 16:6 (Etheridge)
Ask the peace of Maria [shalu b'shlma d'mrya],
who hath laboured much with you.

Quote from: CST on September 06, 2018, 01:33:52 PMGiven that Nazareth isn't mentioned at all in the Old Testament, I'd have to say neither to be honest. I don't doubt that one of them is correct. But there seems to be no way from the Bible to know which prophet or prophets foresaw this.

The prophet Isaiah foresaw this:

Isaiah 11:1-2 (HCSB)
1 Then a shoot [Hebrew:  ntzr] will grow from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him—
a Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
a Spirit of counsel and strength,
a Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

interlinear PDF of Isaiah 11:1 has 'ntzr'/ scion
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa11.pdf

Yeshayah 11:1 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2011%3A1-2&version=KJV;OJB
And there shall come forth a Khoter (Branch) out of the Geza (Stem, Stump, Stock) of Yishai,
and a Netzer [Branch [see Tzemach, Moshiach Jer 23:5; 33:15; Zech 3:8; 6:12, Ezra 3:8 which give as Moshiach's Namesake Yehoshua/Yeshua; compare Mt.2:23 OJBC] shall bear fruit of his roots:

Mt 2:23 (based on Younan plus looking at Khabouris), http://dukhrana.com
And he came (and) dwelled in the medintha [city] that is called N-tz-r-th [Natzrath],
so that might be fulfilled the thing which was spoken b'nabia [by the prophet] that,
"He will be called d'n-tz-r-i-a [of natzria]."

Re:  Mt 2:23, do you think:
"prophets" plural is correct?
"prophet" singular is correct?

the Greek 'prophets' in Mt 2:23 is Plural
https://biblehub.com/greek/prophe_to_n_4396.htm
Englishman's Concordance
προφητῶν (prophētōn) — 32 Occurrences
Matthew 2:23 N-GMP
GRK: διὰ τῶν προφητῶν ὅτι Ναζωραῖος
NAS: through the prophets: He shall be called
KJV: by the prophets,
INT: through the prophets that a Nazarene

QuoteThey are both correct since they both say essentially the same thing.

Which of these statements do you consider correct?:
In Jesus' time, the Samaritans lived in a city.
In Jesus' time, the Samaritans lived in cities.

Mt 10:5 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+10%3A5&version=NASB;MOUNCE
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them:
"Do not go in _the_ way of _the_ Gentiles,
and do not enter _any_ city of the Samaritans;
Mt 10:5 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
Yeshua sent these twelve and commanded them and said,
"By the way of the heathen do not go,
a'l'medintha [and to the cities] of the Samaritans do not enter.

Quote from: CST on September 06, 2018, 01:33:52 PMThey are both correct since they both say essentially the same thing

Do you think it's OK to amend the Greek by inserting "[of sickness]" into a passage that talks about throwing "on a bed" an adulterous woman?

Rev 2 (NASB + Strong's)
https://biblehub.com/nas/revelation/2.htm
21 I gave her time to repent,
and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed [of sickness],
and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation,
unless they repent of her deeds.

Strong's Concordance 2825b. kliné
https://biblehub.com/greek/2825b.htm
kliné: a couch
Transliteration: kliné
Short Definition: bed

Do you think it'd make more sense if she'd been said to have been thrown onto a mortuary couch i.e. a bier?  (Doing such is possible translating from the Aramaic Revelation.)

http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=%28rs+N%20&cits=all
1  bed.... (a) mortuary couch, bier.... when they saw that their bier preceded his bier [i.e. they died before him]. (b) litter.... (c).... a luxurious couch.... (d).... a folding bed made of leather....

Oh, great! Now this has gotten messy throwing question after question at me about how I respond to different renderings that you claim to be the Aramaic original verses renderings of what you claim is the Greek translation of that it serves no purpose you won't change your mind or leave your error, if error it is, just because I disagree with you. I don't care what i think about the Greek 'adding' the word 'of sickness' I don't even know it wasn't lost accidentally originally in the Aramaic. I know in the Joseph Smith translation it simply reads "into Hell" no bed mentioned. I'm more interested at this point in what the Aramaic version says the number of the Beast is.

I'm also aware of the Isaiah reference to Nazareth but that just a theory it's not the only one. Certainly no-one in the Old Testament specifically predicts Jesus will live in a town called Nazareth. However since Isaiah is one prophet who wrote a book in the book in the Jewish Tanak called Nevi'im (Prophets) the difference scarcely matters.

Quote from: CST on September 07, 2018, 01:44:11 PMOh, great! Now this has gotten messy throwing question after question at me about how I respond to different renderings that you claim to be the Aramaic original verses renderings of what you claim is the Greek translation of that it serves no purpose you won't change your mind or leave your error, if error it is, just because I disagree with you. I don't care what i think about the Greek 'adding' the word 'of sickness' I don't even know it wasn't lost accidentally originally in the Aramaic. I know in the Joseph Smith translation it simply reads "into Hell" no bed mentioned. I'm more interested at this point in what the Aramaic version says the number of the Beast is.

Rev 13:18 (NASB)
Here is wisdom.
Let him who has understanding
calculate the number of the beast,
for the number is that of a man;
and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
Footnote:  One early ms reads 616

Rev 13:18 (using Aramaic Peshi tto), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Here is wisdom. Let him who hath mind, calculate the number of the beast of prey; for the number is of man; and his number is Six hundred and sixty and six.
(Murdock) Here is wisdom: let him that hath intelligence, compute the number of the beast of prey; for it is the number of a man: and its number is six hundred and sixty and six.

Greg Glaser's _Crawford Codex of Revelation - Aramaic Interlinear with English Translation_
http://www.lulu.com/shop/greg-glaser/crawford-codex-of-revelation-aramaic-interlinear-with-english-translation/paperback/product-22823002.html
https://www.amazon.com/Crawford-Codex-Revelation-Interlinear-Translation/dp/1365323293/
translates things as "six hundred and sixty and six."

666 or 616? – The Number of the Beast
https://www.endtime.com/blog/666-or-616-the-number-of-the-beast/
In this illuminating passage, Irenaeus states that 666 is the reading found in the most reliable copies of Revelation, including those copied by men who saw John. In addition, he acknowledges the existence of the 616 reading, but considers it erroneous, attributing it to copying errors and the failure of some to properly examine the authenticity of the alternate reading.

"it serves no purpose"
That you're aware of.  What do you think the word epiousios/ epiousion means?

Strong's Concordance 1967. epiousios
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/1967.htm
ἐπιούσιος, ἐπιούσιον, a word found only in Matthew 6:11 and Luke 11:3, in the phrase ἄρτος ἐπιούσιος  .... Origen testifies (de orat. 27) that the word was not in use in ordinary speech, and accordingly seems to have been coined by the Evangelists themselves.

English Wikipedia has an article on: Epiousios
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἐπιούσιος
Etymology   Edit
From ἐπί (epí) +‎ ούσιος (oúsios). Not attested outside of the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:11 and Luke 11:3, in the phrase τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον (tòn árton hēmôn tòn epioúsion), traditionally rendered as "our daily bread".
Adjective   Edit
ἐπιούσιος • (epioúsios)
intended meaning uncertain; suggestions include essential, necessary

Quote from: CST on September 07, 2018, 01:44:11 PMthrowing question after question at me about how I respond to different renderings

Re: the woman that made the crumbs comment, was she:
Jewish?
heathen?
Gentile i.e. non-Jew?
from Phoenicia in Syria?
from Canaan?
Hellenis i.e. Greek?

Matthew 15 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+15&version=NKJV
https://biblehub.com/greek/chananaia_5478.htm
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan [Greek:  Chananaia] came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed." ....
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ....
26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."
27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

Mark 7 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+7&version=NKJV
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/7-26.htm
24 From there He arose and went to the region of Tyre and Sidon.  .... 25 For a woman whose young daughter had an unclean spirit heard about Him, and she came and fell at His feet. 26 The woman was a Greek [Greek:  Hellēnis], a Syro-Phoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said to her, "Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."
28 And she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children's crumbs."

Acts 17:12 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+17%3A12&version=NKJV
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/17-12.htm
Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. [Greek for 'Grecian women': Hellēnidōn gynaikōn]

Mark 7:26, http://dukhrana.com/
(Etheridge) But that woman was a Gentile of Phuniki of Suria,
and she prayed of him to cast out the demon from her daughter.
(Murdock) (the woman was a Gentile from Phenicia of Syria),
and besought him, that he would expel the demon from her daughter.
(Lamsa) But the woman was a heathen, from Phoenicia in Syria;
and she besought him to cast out the demon from her daughter.

Matthew 15:22
(Etheridge) And, beheld, a Canaanite [Aramaic: k-n-ai-n-i-th-a] woman from those coasts came forth crying, and saying, Have mercy upon me, my Lord, son of David ! my daughter is grievously possessed with the demon !
(Murdock) And lo, a woman, a Canaanitess from those confines, came forth, calling out and saying: Compassionate me, my Lord, thou son of David: my daughter is grievously distressed by a demon.

The Mark 7:26 Aramaic word in question is "kh-n-p-th-a" -- godless, Gentile, heathen, foreigner, profane.  Lexeme 1:1096 appears in
Matthew 6:7, 10:5, 18:17
Mark 7:26
John 7:35
Acts 18:4, 18:17
1Cor 5:1, 10:20, 10:27, 12:2
1Peter 4:3

Greek mss. have 'politically-correct' references to non-Jews, and have a particular place's more-current name;
the Aramaic Peshi tta has 'politically-_in_correct' references to non-Jews, and has a particular place's antiquated name:

Norton, William. 1889. _A Translation, in English Daily Used, of the Peshi to-Syriac Text, and of the Received Greek Text, of Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, and 1 John, With an Introduction on the Peshi tto-Syriac Text, and the Revised Greek Text of 1881_ (London: W. K. Bloom), ~140pp. What's below is from a Google books copy; the book is also at
https://archive.org/details/translationineng00nort
In the Introduction, pages l - li:
In the names of places, the Peshi to shows the same independence of the Greek. . . . . in Acts xxi. 7, the Gk. has, Ptolemais; the Syriac has, Acu.

Mr. Jer. Jones, in his work on the Canon, 1798, contends that the use of the name Acu, for Ptolemais, is a decisive proof that the Peshi to must have been made not far in time from A.D. 70, when Jerusalem was destroyed. (vol. i. p. 103. ) He says that the most ancient name of this place among the Israelites was Aco, or Acco, Judges i. 31; that this name was afterwards changed to Ptolemais; that some say it had its new name from Ptolemy Philadelphus, about 250 B. C. He says it is certain that the old name Aco, was antiquated and out of use in the time of the Romans, and that the use of the old name Acu, in the Peshi to, can be accounted for in no other way, but by supposing that the persons for whom the version was made were more acquainted with it, than with the new name Ptolemais; that upon any other supposition it would have been absurd for him to have used Acu. He says, that until the destruction of Jerusalem, one may suppose that the Jews may have retained the old name Aco still, out of fondness for its antiquity; but, he says,

"how they, or any other part of Syria, could, after the Roman conquest, call it by a name different from the Romans, seems to me impossible to conceive. . . To suppose, therefore, that this translation, in which we meet with this old name, instead of the new one, was made at any great distance of time after the destruction of Jerusalem, is to suppose the translator to have substituted an antiquated name known to but few, for a name well known to all" (pp. 104, 105. )

Mr. Jones says that a similar proof that the Peshi to cannot have been made much after A.D. 70, is found in the fact that the Peshi to often calls the Gentiles, as the Jews were accustomed to do, _profane persons_, where the Greek calls them _the nations_, that is, the Gentiles. The Peshi to calls them profane, in Matt. vi. 7; x. 5; xviii.17; Mark vii. 26; John vii. 35; Acts xviii.4, 17; 1 Cor. v. 1; x. 20, 27; xii. 2; 1 Pet. iv.3. The expression is used, therefore, throughout the Peshi to. Mr. Jones says, that it shows that the writer was a Jew, for no other person would have called all the world profane; and that after the destruction of the temple, all Hebrew Christians must have seen that other nations were not to be reckoned unclean and profane in the Jewish sense, and that therefore this version must have been made either before, or soon after, A.D. 70. (On Canon, Vol. i., pp. 106-110.)

David,
Like I said before I'm interested in your ideas, but you don't seem to be sharing your thoughts, just asking questions of us which we don't know how to answer.
Could you formulate your posts in a way that showed your thoughts on these matters, such as why it matters if these things are translated slightly differently.

For example when we talk of translation errors with aionios it is with the intent to show that the word doesn't no mean eternal and therefore disuputes eternal punishment.

Thanks!

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 08, 2018, 04:43:17 AMI'm interested in your ideas, but you don't seem to be sharing your thoughts, just asking questions of us which we don't know how to answer.
Could you formulate your posts in a way that showed your thoughts on these matters, such as why it matters if these things are translated slightly differently.

Saying "I don't know" is an answer-- and an answer I'm likely to follow-up with another question.  I'm hesitant to share my thoughts; if I were to share my thoughts, a moderator might once again disapprove.  What are 2 things that you're wondering about the significance of whether they "were... translated slightly differently"?
Aramaic's "ailma" means world/age.  What does "aionios" mean?

The instances of "Gentile/s" and "Greek/s" appearing below are in the Aramaic Peshi tta as 'heathens/ pagans'; slight exception:  Jn 7:35.

Matthew 6:7 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mt+6%3A7&version=NKJV
And when you pray,
do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do.
For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Matthew 10:5-6 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mt+10%3A5-6&version=NKJV
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying:
"Do not go into the way of the Gentiles,
and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 18:15-17 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mt+18%3A15-17&version=NKJV
15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you,
go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
If he hears you,
you have gained your brother.
16 But if he will not hear,
take with you one or two more, that
'by the mouth of two or three witnesses
every word may be established.'
17 And if he refuses to hear them,
tell it to the church.
But if he refuses even to hear the church,
let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Mark 7:26 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mK+7%3A26&version=NKJV
The woman was a Greek, a Syro-Phoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.

John 7:35 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jn+7%3A35&version=NKJV
Then the Jews said among themselves, "Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?
John 7:35, from Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) The Jihudoyee say among themselves, Whither is this about to go, that we cannot find him ? To the countries of the nations is he to go, and to teach the Heathens ?
(Murdock) The Jews said among themselves: Whither is he about to go, that we cannot find him? Will he go to some region of the Gentiles, and teach the profane?
(Lamsa) Then the Jews said among themselves, Where is he going, that we cannot find him? why, is he planning to go to the countries of the Gentiles, to teach the pagans?

Acts 18:4 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+18%3A4&version=NKJV
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 18:4, from Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And he discoursed in the synagogue every shabath, and persuaded the Jihudoyee and the Heathens.
(Lamsa) And he spoke in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the pagans.

Acts 18:17 (NKJV)
Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. But Gallio took no notice of these things.
Acts 18:17
(Etheridge) And all the Heathens seized Sosthenis the presbyter of the synagogue, and beat him before the tribunal. And Galion was careless of these.
(Lamsa) Then the pagans seized Sos'the-nes, the priest of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gal'li-o disregarded these things.

1 Corinthians 5:1 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+5%3A1&version=NKJV
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father's wife!

1 Corinthians 10:20 (NKJV)
Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

1 Corinthians 10:27 (NKJV)
If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake.
1Corinthians 10:27, from Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) But if a man of the Heathens invite you, and you be willing to go, whatever is set before you eat, without inquiry on account of conscience.
(Lamsa) If any pagan invite you, and you wish to go, whatever is set before you eat, without question for conscience sake.

1 Corinthians 12:2 (NKJV)
You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.

1 Peter 4:3 (NKJV)
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

Do you think the original Mt 5:47 had:  tax-collectors?  pagans?  Gentiles?

NKJV and Peshi tta:  tax-collectors
Matthew 5:47 (NKJV)
And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?
Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Matthew 5:47 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And if you wish peace to your brethren only, what more do you than they ?
do not also the tribute-gatherers this ?
(Murdock) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye that is not common?
Do not even publicans do this?
(Lamsa) And if you salute only your brothers, what is it more that you do?
Do not even the publicans do the same thing?

Strong's Concordance 5057. telónés
https://biblehub.com/greek/5057.htm
telónés: tax collector
Original Word: τελώνης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: telónés
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-o'-nace)
Short Definition: a collector of taxes
Definition: a publican, collector of taxes

In contrast, the NASB has for Mt 5:47 "ethnikos."

Strong's Concordance 1482. ethnikos
https://biblehub.com/greek/1482.htm
ethnikos: national, foreign, i.e. spec. a Gentile
Original Word: ἐθνικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ethnikos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth-nee-kos')
Short Definition: pagan, heathen, gentile; a Gentile, non-Jew
Definition: pagan, heathen, gentile; subst: a Gentile, non-Jew.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1482 ethnikós(from 1484/éthnos, "nation") – Gentile; heathen, usually referring to non-Israelites; a pagan, a "non-covenant person," standing outside God's covenant (salvation). See 1484 (ethnos).

Matthew 5:47 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205%3A47&version=NKJV;NASB;HCSB
And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary?
Don't even the Gentiles do the same?
Footnote:
Matthew 5:47 Other mss read tax collectors

Matthew 5:47 (NASB)
If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?
Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Quote from: DavidFord on September 08, 2018, 02:29:11 AM

Quote from: CST on September 07, 2018, 01:44:11 PMOh, great! Now this has gotten messy throwing question after question at me about how I respond to different renderings that you claim to be the Aramaic original verses renderings of what you claim is the Greek translation of that it serves no purpose you won't change your mind or leave your error, if error it is, just because I disagree with you. I don't care what i think about the Greek 'adding' the word 'of sickness' I don't even know it wasn't lost accidentally originally in the Aramaic. I know in the Joseph Smith translation it simply reads "into Hell" no bed mentioned. I'm more interested at this point in what the Aramaic version says the number of the Beast is.

Rev 13:18 (NASB)
Here is wisdom.
Let him who has understanding
calculate the number of the beast,
for the number is that of a man;
and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
Footnote:  One early ms reads 616

Rev 13:18 (using Aramaic Pecrapto), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Here is wisdom. Let him who hath mind, calculate the number of the beast of prey; for the number is of man; and his number is Six hundred and sixty and six.
(Murdock) Here is wisdom: let him that hath intelligence, compute the number of the beast of prey; for it is the number of a man: and its number is six hundred and sixty and six.

Greg Glaser's _Crawford Codex of Revelation - Aramaic Interlinear with English Translation_
https://www.amazon.com/Crawford-Codex-Revelation-Interlinear-Translation/dp/1365323293/
translates things as "six hundred and sixty and six."

666 or 616? – The Number of the Beast
https://www.endtime.com/blog/666-or-616-the-number-of-the-beast/
In this illuminating passage, Irenaeus states that 666 is the reading found in the most reliable copies of Revelation, including those copied by men who saw John. In addition, he acknowledges the existence of the 616 reading, but considers it erroneous, attributing it to copying errors and the failure of some to properly examine the authenticity of the alternate reading.

"it serves no purpose"
That you're aware of.  What do you think the word epiousios/ epiousion means?

Strong's Concordance 1967. epiousios
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/1967.htm
ἐπιούσιος, ἐπιούσιον, a word found only in Matthew 6:11 and Luke 11:3, in the phrase ἄρτος ἐπιούσιος  .... Origen testifies (de orat. 27) that the word was not in use in ordinary speech, and accordingly seems to have been coined by the Evangelists themselves.

English Wikipedia has an article on: Epiousios
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἐπιούσιος
Etymology   Edit
From ἐπί (epí) +‎ ούσιος (oúsios). Not attested outside of the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:11 and Luke 11:3, in the phrase τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον (tòn árton hēmôn tòn epioúsion), traditionally rendered as "our daily bread".
Adjective   Edit
ἐπιούσιος • (epioúsios)
intended meaning uncertain; suggestions include essential, necessary

Oh, dear! I'm inclined to reject any text of the Revelation as original if it gives the number of the beast because I find that self-defeating if the writer has instructed the reader to calculate the number of the beast as a test of their understanding and then immediately tells they what it is.

That Origen testifies that one word wasn't in common use is proof of nothing. Even today there are words used in dialects and areas where people outside of the area are completely ignorant of them unless they encounter them and even then may not know what they mean. And this is a time where we have dictionaries which record what word mean and are much more interconnected than people in the days of the Bible ever were. What people definitely saids hasn't been recorded as the technology didn't exist to do so.

Working out what words even in the Bible mean is a piece of very educated guess work. Based on comparing how words are used in various context trying to work out how broad the word usage might be and what sort of homonyms there might be. I have no doubt much of the nuance is in translation and even then that assumes there is a final consensus of what most of the words ultimately mean.

Greek is generally taken to be clearer than Hebrew/Aramaic which much less chance for misunderstanding and nuance so, yeah the idea that God would give us the Old Testament in Hebrew and Aramaic, and give us the New Testament in Greek doesn't surprise me at all. In fact it seems theologically sounds.

The ignorance of Origen or any one else is no proof of anything.

I'm not going to to answer your question of the woman who talked about crumbs. I'm sure all the writers had their own reasons for picking the words they did and didn't necessarily see the contradictions we see so the discussion is pointless.

I don't even know who those last questions are directed to.

Quote from: CST on September 08, 2018, 12:42:25 PMI'm inclined to reject any text of the Revelation as original if it gives the number of the beast because I find that self-defeating if the writer has instructed the reader to calculate the number of the beast as a test of their understanding and then immediately tells they what it is.

Are you aware of any manuscript of the Revelation that _lacks_ giving the reader the number of the beast?

QuoteGreek is generally taken to be clearer than Hebrew/Aramaic which much less chance for misunderstanding and nuance so, yeah the idea that God would give us the Old Testament in Hebrew and Aramaic, and give us the New Testament in Greek doesn't surprise me at all. In fact it seems theologically sounds.

Do you agree with the claim that the quality of the Greek grammar for Greek Revelation texts is extremely wretched?

Christopher Lancaster aka "Raphael Lataster," _Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek? A Concise Compendium of the Many Internal and External Evidences of Aramaic Peshi tta Primacy_ (2011), 328pp., 138-139. Cited at URL below, and tweaked to more closely conform to how it appears in Lancaster.
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2018/08/28/the-original-language-of-the-new-testament/
In addition to the evidence for Semitic grammar embedded in the Greek New Testament, the fact that serious grammatical errors are found in the Greek New Testament books should also be revealed.  Speaking of the Greek of Revelation, Charles Cutler Torrey states that it "...swarms with major offenses against Greek grammar." He calls it "linguistic anarchy", and says, "The grammatical monstrosities of the book, in their number and variety and especially in their startling character, stand alone in the history of literature."  Torrey gives ten examples listed below:
1. Rev. 1:4 "Grace to you, and peace, from he who is and who was and who is to come." (all nom. case)
2. Rev. 1:15 "His legs were like burnished brass (neutral gender dative case), as in a furnace purified"(Fem. gender sing. no., gen. case)
3. Rev. 11:3 "My witness (nom.) shall prophesy for many days clothed (accus.) in sackcloth."
4. Rev. 14:14 "I saw on the cloud, one seated like unto a Son of Man (accus.) having
(nom.) upon his head a golden crown."
5. Rev. 14:19 "He harvested the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress
(fem), the great (masc.) of the wrath of God."
6. Rev. 17:4 "A golden cup filled with abominations (gen.) and with unclean things" (accus.)
7. Rev. 19:20 "The lake of blazing (fem.) fire (neutral)."
8. Rev. 20:2 "And he seized the dragon (accus.), the old serpent (nom.), who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him."
9. Rev. 21:9 "Seven angels holding seven bowls (accus.), filled (gen.) with the seven last plagues."
10. Rev. 22:5 "They have no need of lamplight (gen.) nor of sunlight (accus.).

QuoteI'm not going to to answer your question of the woman who talked about crumbs.

Quote from: CST on September 08, 2018, 12:42:25 PMI have no doubt much of the nuance is in translation and even then that assumes there is a final consensus of what most of the words ultimately mean

There's even uncertainty often about what text to use. 

Rev 6:15
On a listing of Greek texts for Rev 6:15 at
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/6-15.htm
doing control-f/ 'find' for:  ἰσχυροὶ
reveals that all but 3 of the Greek texts listed contain it.  (Tischendorf 8th Edition instead has the slightly different ἰσχυρός.)  Doing control-f/ 'find' for:  δυνατοὶ
on that webpage reveals that only 2 of the texts have it.  Both words mean basically the same thing-- strong, powerful-- but look and sound very different.

Rev 6:15 http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) and the kings of the earth and great ones, and the chiefs of thousands, and the rich and the mighty ones [Aramaic:  khilutha: power, mighty work, strength, virtue, force], and every servant, and every freeman, hid....

Rev 14:6
On a listing of Greek texts for Rev 14:6 at
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/14-6.htm
doing control-f/ 'find' for:  καθημένους
reveals that all but 3 of the Greek texts listed contain it.  (Tischendorf 8th Edition instead has κάθημαι.)
Doing control-f/ 'find' for:  κατοικοῦντας
on that webpage reveals that only 2 of the texts have it.  Both words mean kind of the same thing-- sit, dwell-- but are rather different in spelling.

Rev 14:6 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Lamsa) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel [Aramaic:  sbrtha d'l'ailm:  hope that-to a world/age], to preach to those who dwell [Aramaic:  y-th-b-y:  to sit; to dwell; to stay, remain] on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Rev 14:18
On a listing of Greek texts for Rev 14:18 at
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/14-18.htm
doing control-f/ 'find' for:  φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
reveals that 4 of the Greek texts listed contain it.  A separate 4 instead have
κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ  (Tischendorf 8th Edition has φωνή μέγας.)  The μεγάλῃ part means 'large, great':

Strong's Concordance 3173. megas
https://biblehub.com/greek/3173.htm
megas: great
Original Word: μέγας, μεγάλη, μέγα
Part of Speech: Adjective; Adverb, Comparative
Transliteration: megas
Phonetic Spelling: (meg'-as)
Short Definition: large, great
Definition: large, great, in the widest sense

We now turn our attention to the first part of the phrase, with its contrasting κραυγῇ vs. φωνῇ.

Strong's Concordance 5456. phóné
https://biblehub.com/greek/5456.htm
phóné: a voice, sound
Original Word: φωνή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phóné
Phonetic Spelling: (fo-nay')
Short Definition: a sound, noise, voice
Definition: a sound, noise, voice, language, dialect.

Strong's Concordance 2906. kraugé
https://biblehub.com/greek/2906.htm
kraugé: an outcry
Original Word: κραυγή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kraugé
Phonetic Spelling: (krow-gay')
Short Definition: a shout, clamor, outcry
Definition: (a) a shout, cry, clamor, (b) outcry, clamoring against another.

Both words mean kind of the same thing-- a shout, clamor, outcry; a sound, noise, voice-- but are quite different in their all-but-last letters.

Rev 14:18 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Murdock) And another angel came out from the altar, having authority over fire. And he cried with a loud voice [Aramaic:  raba b'quala:  in a great voice; sound, noise], to him who had the sharp sickle, saying: ....

I had to laugh a little at the phrase "extremely wretched" in connection w/ the Book of Revelation. Lol.
Extremely wretched understanding! Locked it in at least one box (called 7 years only). Okay.. carry on.. :Peace2:

Interesting, CST, about the # being in the manuscript.. vs. 13:18.

Ok, you don't want to share your thoughts because you are worried about moderation, but then how is there to be a conversation? You asking questions and people answering them or not answering them can hardly benefit anyone.

I will offer my two cents:

There are translation errors.

The word of God is Jesus; the Bible is ancient profitable scripture that teaches us of the life of Jesus but Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth (John 16).

When doubt of translation discrepancies creeps in, ask for understanding and the spirit will guide us.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 09, 2018, 04:12:20 AM
Ok, you don't want to share your thoughts because you are worried about moderation, but then how is there to be a conversation? You asking questions and people answering them or not answering them can hardly benefit anyone.

Very easily; are you saying you haven't benefited in the least from reading my question-asking posts?
What's the correct translation within Rev 22:14: 
"who wash their robes", or "who keep His commands"?

Rev 22:14 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2022%3A14&version=NKJV;HCSB
"Blessed are those who wash their robes,[a]
so that they may have the right to the tree of life
and may enter the city by the gates.
Footnotes:
Revelation 22:14 Other mss read who keep His commands

"Do his commandments" or "wash their robes" in Revelation 22:14?
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/do-his-commandments-or-wash-their-robes-in-revelation-2214
Although... is in earlier extant copies, these early manuscripts are demonstrably full of careless transcription. ....  The word "wash" in the NA/UBS reading is a present participle in the Greek, signifying an ongoing action.  Hence the washing of robes is expressed to be an ongoing action, not a single occurrence.  However, this notion of ongoing washing is at odds with what the Bible says elsewhere about being washed.  Revelation 7:14 says that those who came out of great tribulation "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."  "Washed" is in the aorist tense which does not necessarily suggest ongoing action.  This makes sense because, as is revealed by this verse, the washing of robes symbolizes the cleansing by the blood of Christ.  Such an act is a completed event at the time of conversion.  Revelation 1:5 says that Christ "washed us from our sins in his own blood".  To "do his commandments", however, is an ongoing act even in other passages of scripture ("keep his commandments": 1 John 2:3, 3:22, 5:2-3, Revelation 12:17, 14:12). 

Revelation 22:14 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com/
(Murdock) Blessed are they who do his commandments [Aramaic for 'his commandments': puqdanuhi],
that they may have a right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.

QuoteI will offer my two cents:
There are translation errors.
The word of God is Jesus; the Bible is ancient profitable scripture that teaches us of the life of Jesus but Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth (John 16).
When doubt of translation discrepancies creeps in, ask for understanding and the spirit will guide us.

"There are translation errors" from what to what?  (from Greek to English?  from Aramaic into Greek?)
Do you think there are transmission errors, e.g. from sloppy copying of manuscripts through the years?
Do you think the book of Revelation was originally composed in:  Greek?  Aramaic?

Just a question David. Are these supposed to be rhetorical questions? Where the answer is supposed to be obvious? 

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 10, 2018, 03:10:15 AMAre these supposed to be rhetorical questions? Where the answer is supposed to be obvious?

I avoid asking rhetorical questions. Re: Acts 6:7, which remark here is correct?:
"a great many of the _priests_ were obedient to the faith"
"many people from among the _Jews_, were obedient to the faith"

Acts 6 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+6&version=NKJV
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.

Acts 6:7 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And the word of Aloha increased, and the number of the disciples increased in Urishlem greatly: and much people of the Jihudoyee were obedient to the faith.
(Murdock) And the word of God increased, and the number of disciples was enlarged at Jerusalem greatly; and many people from among the Jews, were obedient to the faith.
(Lamsa) And the word of God spread; and the number of the converts in Jerusalem increased greatly; and many people of Jewish faith became converts.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 08, 2018, 03:58:04 PM

Quote from: CST on September 08, 2018, 12:42:25 PMI'm inclined to reject any text of the Revelation as original if it gives the number of the beast because I find that self-defeating if the writer has instructed the reader to calculate the number of the beast as a test of their understanding and then immediately tells they what it is.

Are you aware of any manuscript of the Revelation that _lacks_ giving the reader the number of the beast?

No, but since I'm confident even the earliest manuscripts we have are several generations removed from the original that doesn't mean very much.

I'm not going to talk to you any more as whatever your intention I'm just indulging you and think it unhelpful to continue.

Quote from: marie glen on September 08, 2018, 09:24:56 PM
I had to laugh a little at the phrase "extremely wretched" in connection w/ the Book of Revelation. Lol.
Extremely wretched understanding! Locked it in at least one box (called 7 years only). Okay.. carry on.. :Peace2:

Interesting, CST, about the # being in the manuscript.. vs. 13:18.

Yeah, I thought so.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 09, 2018, 04:12:20 AM
Ok, you don't want to share your thoughts because you are worried about moderation, but then how is there to be a conversation? You asking questions and people answering them or not answering them can hardly benefit anyone.

I will offer my two cents:

There are translation errors.

The word of God is Jesus; the Bible is ancient profitable scripture that teaches us of the life of Jesus but Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth (John 16).

When doubt of translation discrepancies creeps in, ask for understanding and the spirit will guide us.

I understand David's concerns about moderation. I'm somewhat surprised he's got this far, I've been censured for less in the past.

616 v 666



Full article: https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/666-or-616/

QuoteNero.  His name and title in Hebrew (Nero Ceasar – נרונקסר) has a numeric value of 666
....
this would explain why some early manuscripts of the Book of Revelation have 616 instead of 666 as the number of the beast. The difference likely arose from spelling Nero's name as it was pronounced in Latin instead of Hebrew.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 09, 2018, 04:12:20 AM
Ok, you don't want to share your thoughts because you are worried about moderation, but then how is there to be a conversation? You asking questions and people answering them or not answering them can hardly benefit anyone.

I will offer my two cents:

There are translation errors.

The word of God is Jesus; the Bible is ancient profitable scripture that teaches us of the life of Jesus but Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth (John 16).

When doubt of translation discrepancies creeps in, ask for understanding and the spirit will guide us.

Amen :iagree: heartily.. anytime we have a question/questions, seeking Him in the matter / asking Him.. like Jesus said, if we being flawed know how to give good gifts to our children, "won't your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to whoever asks". (I get the sense that the answer to all things is more of His Spirit..)

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2018, 02:56:16 PM
616 v 666



Full article: https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/666-or-616/

QuoteNero.  His name and title in Hebrew (Nero Ceasar – נרונקסר) has a numeric value of 666
....
this would explain why some early manuscripts of the Book of Revelation have 616 instead of 666 as the number of the beast. The difference likely arose from spelling Nero's name as it was pronounced in Latin instead of Hebrew.

That's interesting, I didn't know that..

I did come across the idea that the Roman numbers in use at the time 1,5,10,50,100,500 add up to 666
—————————-

Not that I'm a Rome as last days (big) 'beast'/body, to me that was of yesteryear & I try to point out how the big/world? beast/body of Rev 13:1 cross references so perfectly w/ the 4th beast of Daniel's dream of 4 beasts.. and "the last one more terrible" has in it "iron and bronze" which for the life of me I cannot understand how that seems to go so missed in prophecy buff-dom

Of course they've put prophecy in a box all locked up and titled "7 years" (only) or so many think.

So what is the iron & the bronze/copper?

It's co-incidental that the metals are in the dream interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue.. Looking back, most agree the bronze/copper was Greece/Greek and the iron was Rome/Roman.

Now I don't know if public education still teaches how western Civilization was built upon the "Roman/Graeco (Greek) foundation, and Christianity of course, western civilization once having been referred to as "Christendom" (until the "false prophet"/teacher/teaching's "strong delusion" which has/is causing a "falling away" from the faith.

Both references- beast big of 13:1-10 & Daniel 7:7,19 have "ten horns" so I take it as pertinent.
And expect a world body turning beast, which has Roman/Graeco foundations —- Roman politics, senates, courts, etc, etc and Greek arts, drama, philosophy/humanism..

"What the iron teeth don't devour, the bronze claws will tear up and scatter"

(This is, I believe where we are at in Bible prophecy, Daniel 7:19c.. the devouring, crushing and breaking down, and in the pause (still, so far) of Rev 7:1 (pause of the 6th seal/13:13 as warfare that is.. If UR could present a coherent, down to earth understanding of bible prophecy & the Book of Revelation.. well, the 'puzzle' (jigsaw) would be more complete.

The presentation of "the Kingdom" is so incomplete.. I don't think we can see the 'big picture' w/o an understanding of bible prophecy.. we then resort to ephemeric (spiritual only) interpretation which to me falls short of the grandeur of the true (imo) big picture.. I cannot reconcile the whole idea of "going to heaven" as opposed to heaven/the kingdom coming to Earth making all things new and wonderful - a sort of mental only existence, but Paul "chosen to be shown God's will/intent" says "with what body shall they rise?" If God wanted spirit only beings, why not just stick w/ the angels..

But I guess I'm straying.. falling down one of my favorite rabbit holes, Bible prophecy.. https://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com

QuoteThat's interesting, I didn't know that..

I did come across the idea that the Roman numbers in use at the time 1,5,10,50,100,500 add up to 666

Not sure that's true but there are likely several correct interpretations. Long ago I posted something about the human body be made up of materials that add up to 666.


Anyway I forgot to add in my previous post, if the Hebrew spelling of Nero adds up to 666, it was written in Hebrew. If Greek then the number would be different.
It would be odd that if the Greek text was the very first it uses counting based on a Hebrew word  :2c:

But I agree with the article that it could just be a template. Nero was the beast. But so were a bunch of others like Stalin and Hitler.
That's actually a in line with satan. Scripture states there are many satans but only one theSatan. So for me personally it wouldn't be unthinkable there will be many beasts but only one theBeast.

Quote from: CST on September 10, 2018, 02:13:35 PM

I understand David's concerns about moderation. I'm somewhat surprised he's got this far, I've been censured for less in the past.

:Chinscratch: 

any further take to PM please

'Lebanese brass' in Revelation
Rocco A. Errico and George M. Lamsa, _Aramaic Light on James through Revelation_ (2006), 232pp., 102:
Lebanon brass is famed for its fine quality and strength.  When it is burnished, it shines like gold.

Rev 1:15
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-15.htm
chalkolibanō
χαλκολιβάνῳ  ,
fine bronze

Rev 2:18
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/2-18.htm
chalkolibanō
χαλκολιβάνῳ  .
burnished bronze

Strong's Concordance 5474. chalkolibanon
https://biblehub.com/greek/5474.htm
chalkolibanon: chalcolibanus (fine copper, bronze or brass)
Original Word: χαλκολίβανον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: chalkolibanon
Phonetic Spelling: (khal-kol-ib'-an-on)
Short Definition: orichalcum, or frankincense of a yellow color
Definition: orichalcum, a fine metal, or frankincense of a yellow color.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from chalkos and libanos
Definition
chalcolibanus (fine copper, bronze or brass)
NASB Translation
burnished bronze (2).

Strong's Concordance 5475. chalkos
https://biblehub.com/greek/5475.htm
chalkos: copper or bronze
Original Word: χαλκός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: chalkos
Phonetic Spelling: (khal-kos')
Short Definition: copper, brass, money
Definition: copper, brass, money; a brazen musical instrument.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Strong's Concordance 3030. libanos
https://biblehub.com/greek/3030.htm
libanos: the frankincense tree, frankincense
Original Word: λίβανος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: libanos
Phonetic Spelling: (lib'-an-os)
Short Definition: incense
Definition: (Semitic word), frankincense, incense.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
of Semitic origin, cf. lebonah
Definition
the frankincense tree, frankincense
NASB Translation
frankincense (2).

Strong's Concordance 3828. lebonah
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3828.htm
lebonah: frankincense
Original Word: לְבוֹנָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: lebonah
Phonetic Spelling: (leb-o-naw')
Short Definition: frankincense
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from laben
Definition
frankincense
NASB Translation
frankincense (13), incense (8).

Strong's Concordance 3835. laban
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3835.htm
laban: brick
Original Word: לָבַן
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: laban
Phonetic Spelling: (law-ban')
Short Definition: brick
Brown-Driver-Briggs
[לָבֵן] verb be white ....Phoenician לבן white; Arabic  milk;  also be white....
1 make white = purify (ethical) Daniel 11:35 (no object expressed, "" צָרַף, בָּרֵר).
2 shew whiteness, grow white, of fig-tree, stripped by locusts, Joel 1:7; figurative of moral purity, ׳כַּשֶּׁלֶג יַלְב Isaiah 1:18; ׳מִשֶּׁלֶג אַלְב Psalm 51:9. ....

Chambers, Ephraim, 1680 (ca.)-1740., et al. / A supplement to Mr. Chambers's cyclopædia: or, universal dictionary of arts and sciences. In two volumes (1753)
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/HistSciTech/HistSciTech-idx?type=turn&entity=HistSciTech.CycloSupple01.p0504&id=HistSciTech.CycloSupple01&isize=M&q1=chalcolibanon

Rev 1:15 http://dukhrana.com
(Lamsa) And his feet were like the fine brass of Lebanon [Aramaic:  lebnaya],
as though they burned in a furnace;
and his voice was as the sound of many waters.
Rev 2:18
(Lamsa) And unto the angel of the church in Thya-ti'ra write:
These things says the Son of God,
who has eyes like unto a flame of fire,
and whose feet are like fine brass from Lebanon [Aramaic:  lebnaya];

Maybe 'Lebanese brass' equals 'whitened brass/bronze/copper' or 'purified brass/bronze/copper' or 'yellowish brass/bronze/copper.'

Quote from: marie glen on September 10, 2018, 04:53:47 PM

That's interesting, I didn't know that..

I did come across the idea that the Roman numbers in use at the time 1,5,10,50,100,500 add up to 666
—————————-

The number of the beast is generally taken to be calculated by Gematria but as usual that may involve a misunderstanding. What I read was that 666 referred to Nero and 616 referred to Caligula but like WW says there are many different feelings.

Like you allude to the need for distant fulfilment and the fact it so easily refers to Nero or Caligula is why I tend to doubt it actually belongs there and hasn't been added by someone who decided Nero was the beast, calculated what his number would be and added it to the text. Maybe as a footnote that swiftly got carried into the actual document.

Quote from: CST on September 11, 2018, 11:09:00 AMLike you allude to the need for distant fulfilment and the fact it so easily refers to Nero or Caligula is why I tend to doubt it actually belongs there and hasn't been added by someone who decided Nero was the beast, calculated what his number would be and added it to the text. Maybe as a footnote that swiftly got carried into the actual document.

Perhaps such occurred with the 'Jesus declared all foods clean' editorial in some Greek mss.'s Mk 7:19.

Mark 7:19 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%207%3A19&version=KJV;NASB;HCSB
because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach,
and is eliminated?" (_Thus He_ declared all foods clean.)

https://bible.org/seriespage/mark-7
7:19
NASB, NRSV "(_Thus He_ declared all foods clean)"
NKJV "_thus_ purifying all foods"
TEV "(. . .Jesus declared that all foods are fit to be eaten)"
NJB" (Thus he pronounced all food clean)"
The parentheses reflect the translators' view that it is an editorial comment (probably from Peter's experience in Acts 10). It is such an important NT truth (cf. Rom. 14:13-23; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 10:23-33).

Mark 7:19 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) because it entereth not into his heart, but into his belly,
and is cast out in the purgation which all food purgeth ?
(Murdock) For it doth not enter into his heart, but into his belly,
and is thrown into the digestive process, which carries off all that is eaten.

(KJV)
Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly,
and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2018, 07:06:46 PMif the Hebrew spelling of Nero adds up to 666, it was written in Hebrew. If Greek then the number would be different.It would be odd that if the Greek text was the very first it uses counting based on a Hebrew word

Rocco A. Errico and George M. Lamsa, _Aramaic Light on James through Revelation_ (2006), 232pp., 177-178:
In Aramaic and Hebrew every name can be expressed in numbers because every letter has a numerical value.  For example, the letter _alep_, in addition to being a consonant, is also the number one....
N   50
R   200
O   6
N   50
K   100
S   60
R   200
     666
This is the number of the beast-- Nero Caesar in Aramaic.

Greek mss. of Revelation contain horrifically-bad Greek grammar.  Do you think Revelation was originally composed in:  Greek?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

Christopher Lancaster aka "Raphael Lataster," _Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek? A Concise Compendium of the Many Internal and External Evidences of Aramaic Peshi tta Primacy_ (2011), 328pp., 138-139. Cited at URL below, and tweaked to more closely conform to how it appears in Lancaster.
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2018/08/28/the-original-language-of-the-new-testament/
In addition to the evidence for Semitic grammar embedded in the Greek New Testament, the fact that serious grammatical errors are found in the Greek New Testament books should also be revealed.  Speaking of the Greek of Revelation, Charles Cutler Torrey states that it "...swarms with major offenses against Greek grammar." He calls it "linguistic anarchy", and says, "The grammatical monstrosities of the book, in their number and variety and especially in their startling character, stand alone in the history of literature."  Torrey gives ten examples listed below:
1. Rev. 1:4 "Grace to you, and peace, from he who is and who was and who is to come." (all nom. case)
2. Rev. 1:15 "His legs were like burnished brass (neutral gender dative case), as in a furnace purified"(Fem. gender sing. no., gen. case)
3. Rev. 11:3 "My witness (nom.) shall prophesy for many days clothed (accus.) in sackcloth."
4. Rev. 14:14 "I saw on the cloud, one seated like unto a Son of Man (accus.) having
(nom.) upon his head a golden crown."
5. Rev. 14:19 "He harvested the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress
(fem), the great (masc.) of the wrath of God."
6. Rev. 17:4 "A golden cup filled with abominations (gen.) and with unclean things" (accus.)
7. Rev. 19:20 "The lake of blazing (fem.) fire (neutral)."
8. Rev. 20:2 "And he seized the dragon (accus.), the old serpent (nom.), who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him."
9. Rev. 21:9 "Seven angels holding seven bowls (accus.), filled (gen.) with the seven last plagues."
10. Rev. 22:5 "They have no need of lamplight (gen.) nor of sunlight (accus.).

Quote from: DavidFord on September 12, 2018, 04:53:43 AM

Quote from: CST on September 11, 2018, 11:09:00 AMLike you allude to the need for distant fulfilment and the fact it so easily refers to Nero or Caligula is why I tend to doubt it actually belongs there and hasn't been added by someone who decided Nero was the beast, calculated what his number would be and added it to the text. Maybe as a footnote that swiftly got carried into the actual document.

Perhaps such occurred with the 'Jesus declared all foods clean' editorial in some Greek mss.'s Mk 7:19.

Mark 7:19 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%207%3A19&version=KJV;NASB;HCSB
because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach,
and is eliminated?" (_Thus He_ declared all foods clean.)

https://bible.org/seriespage/mark-7
7:19
NASB, NRSV "(_Thus He_ declared all foods clean)"
NKJV "_thus_ purifying all foods"
TEV "(. . .Jesus declared that all foods are fit to be eaten)"
NJB" (Thus he pronounced all food clean)"
The parentheses reflect the translators' view that it is an editorial comment (probably from Peter's experience in Acts 10). It is such an important NT truth (cf. Rom. 14:13-23; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 10:23-33).

Mark 7:19 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) because it entereth not into his heart, but into his belly,
and is cast out in the purgation which all food purgeth ?
(Murdock) For it doth not enter into his heart, but into his belly,
and is thrown into the digestive process, which carries off all that is eaten.

(KJV)
Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly,
and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

You seem to be writing as if you have some point to prove or axe to grind on this matter which is why I feel it no longer worthwhile to indulge you.

Interrupting my comment to someone else in order to make your point just seems to make my case.

Quote from: CST on September 11, 2018, 11:09:00 AM
The number of the beast is generally taken to be calculated by Gematria but as usual that may involve a misunderstanding. What I read was that 666 referred to Nero and 616 referred to Caligula but like WW says there are many different feelings.

The 666 tag has indeed be stuck on many people.

For me things get interesting if other 666-people also are 616-people in another (relevant) language. That would form some pattern.

But obviously we aren't allowed to just take the number out of context.
For example that person (or organization) has to be closely linked to buying and selling. So, if Nero allowed Jews to buy and sell as much as they liked, because Nero really liked how trade benefited the Roman empire, then Nero for me wasn't the beast....

Don't forget there's 2 beasts.. a big one of Rev 13:1-10 (w/ iron & bronze; Dan 7:7,19) and a 'little' one, or office, 11-18. It's the last one that is said to be a man, for we have his number.. To me 13:13 pinpoints the office, I guess I don't even worry about the number.. but (it/13:13 was) SO huge we don't see it - plus the vision is reckoned to be locked into 7 years only.. ...Like we don't see the false prophet/teacher/teaching of today (not yesteryear) whose "strong delusion" has caused a great "falling away" from the faith of western civilization, once called Christendom..

Revelation has in it both futurist aNd historist.. :Peace2:

Generally 666 I take to be a numbering system.. whatever that may turn out to be.. and yes involves buying and selling..

It's my belief the smaller 'beast' will step into the prime seat of the big one (governing body, modern day) in response to 'crises' - It's head finally wholeheartedly signing on - it having expired before because the head/visionary of it didn't sign on after all.. (imo)

Rev 8:13:  which is correct:  an eagle? an eagle messenger?  a human messenger? an angelic messenger?

Rev 8:13 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev8%3A13&version=NKJV;HCSB
I looked again and heard an eagle [Other mss read _angel_] flying high overhead, crying out in a loud voice,
"Woe! Woe! Woe to those who live on the earth, because of the remaining trumpet blasts that the three angels are about to sound!"

Greek:  ἀγγέλου/ aggelou i.e. messenger (sometimes human messenger, usually angelic messenger) vs. ἀετοῦ/ aetou i.e. eagle
https://biblehub.com/greek/aetou_105.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/angelou_32.htm
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/8-13.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/32.htm
32 ággelos – properly, a messenger or delegate – either human (Mt 11:10; Lk 7:24, 9:52; Gal 4:14; Js 2:25) or heavenly (a celestial angel); someone sent (by God) to proclaim His message.
32 (ággelos) is used 176 times in the NT (usually of heavenly angels), but only the context determines whether a human or celestial messenger is intended

Rev 8:13 (from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
(Murdock) And I saw and heard an eagle, which flew in the midst, and it had a tail of blood, while it said, with a loud voice:
Woe, woe, to them who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining sounds of the trumpets of the three angels, who are to sound.
(Lamsa) And I beheld, and heard an eagle having a tail red as it were blood, flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice,
Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, by reason of the other sounds of the trumpets of the three angels which are yet to sound!

Translating as "messenger" an eagle that loudly says a message is permissible.
Translating as "eagle" a flying messenger isn't permissible-- a 'flying messenger' could also be an angel, or a flying raven.
IOW, this scenario would make sense:  Aramaic eagle into Greek messenger. 
And this wouldn't make sense:  Greek messenger into Aramaic eagle.

======================================.
"Aramaic" at Peshi tto's Rev 9:11; "Aramean" in Peshi tta vs. "Greek" in Greek mss.

In the NIV's NT, wherever there appears "Aramaic," the corresponding Peshi tta has "Aibraith" [Aramaic, or Hebrew].  The Peshi tta/o in addition has aibraith for Lk 23:38, and Rev 9:11, 16:16:
Peshi tta verses that contains lexeme 1:2235 aibraith
Luke 23:38
John 5:2, 19:13, 19:17, 19:20, 20:16
Acts 21:40, 22:2, 26:14
Rev 9:11, 16:16

"Aramaic" in the NT NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=aramaic&qs_version=NIV
John 5:2 Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades.
John 19:13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha).
John 19:17 Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).
John 19:20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
John 20:16 Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means "Teacher").
Acts 21:40 After receiving the commander's permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic:
Acts 22:2 When they heard him speak to them in Aramaic, they became very quiet. Then Paul said:
Acts 26:14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

Rev 9:11 (modified Aramaic Peshi tta NT Translation)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/english-word-search
And there was a king over them, the angel of the abyss, whose name in Aibraith [Aramaic, or Hebrew] [is] Abaddon, and in Armayith [Aramaic], his name is "Breaker."

Aramean/ Syrian appears in the OT.  Ref:
search for Aramean on HCSB, 65 search results
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=aramean&qs_version=HCSB&limit=500
search for Syrian on NKJV, 73 search results
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=syrian&qs_version=NKJV&limit=500

The Aramaic NT Peshi tta has 20 instances of armya/ Aramean i.e. Syrian.  Greek mss. have only one instance of Aramean/Syrian; 19 times "Greek" appears where the Peshi tta has "Aramean."  People called Greek in Greek mss. that the Peshi tta doesn't call Greek are Timothy (Acts 16:1, 16:3), Titus (Galatians 2:3), and the Syro-Phoenician woman (Mark 7:26, which the Peshi tta calls 'heathen' instead of 'Greek').

Peshi tta verses that contain lexeme 1:293 (armya)
Luke 4:27 (in Greek mss., this is the sole instance where Aramean/Syrian appears)
Acts 16:1, 16:3, 19:10, 19:17, 20:21, 21:28
Romans 1:16, 2:9, 2:10, 3:9, 10:12
1Cor 1:22, 1:23, 1:24, 10:32, 12:13
Gal 2:3, 3:28
Col 3:11.
Also, Gal 2:14 has Armayith.

Luke 4:27 (from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) and many lepers were in the house of Israel, in the days of Elisha the prophet, and not one of them was cleansed only Namon the Aramian.
(Murdock) And there were many leprous in the house of Israel, in the days of Elisha the prophet; but none of them was cleansed, except Naaman the Syrian.
(Lamsa) And there were many lepers in Israel in the days of the prophet Elisha, and yet not one of them was cleansed, except Naaman the Syrian.

If I read eagle (here).. I would know it was an angel.. (Except for Rev 12:14; and the birds of midheaven - fly higher than the little birds - in Revelation at Armageddon. Could be more too, I suppose..)

Quote from: marie glen on September 12, 2018, 08:00:03 PM
Don't forget there's 2 beasts.. a big one of Rev 13:1-10 (w/ iron & bronze; Dan 7:7,19) and a 'little' one, or office, 11-18. It's the last one that is said to be a man, for we have his number.. To me 13:13 pinpoints the office, I guess I don't even worry about the number.. but (it/13:13 was) SO huge we don't see it - plus the vision is reckoned to be locked into 7 years only.. ...Like we don't see the false prophet/teacher/teaching of today (not yesteryear) whose "strong delusion" has caused a great "falling away" from the faith of western civilization, once called Christendom..

Revelation has in it both futurist aNd historist.. :Peace2:

Generally 666 I take to be a numbering system.. whatever that may turn out to be.. and yes involves buying and selling..

It's my belief the smaller 'beast' will step into the prime seat of the big one (governing body, modern day) in response to 'crises' - It's head finally wholeheartedly signing on - it having expired before because the head/visionary of it didn't sign on after all.. (imo)

"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to perdition. And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast." (Revelation 17:9-12)

All but one translation I can find calls them 'kings' the translation that doesn't seems not to translate the relevant word at all. It may be that the word is mistranslated but given how it is commonly used in the Bible it seems unlikely. Still I don't presume to have so much wisdom and am not convinced too many translators do either. But they all sound like people here rather than institutions. Still, parable on parable is possible.

This is so confusing. Quite probably one of the most confusing passages in the Bible.

Quote from: CST on September 13, 2018, 12:00:56 PM"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while.

https://www.plumdeluxe.com/city-of-seven-hills
I'm not sure we can say Rome is the original city of seven hills (other cities with this claim are older) but it's certainly the most well known.  The seven hills are....

https://www.britannica.com/place/Seven-Hills-of-Rome
Seven Hills of Rome, group of hills on or about which the ancient city of Rome was built. The original city of Romulus was built upon Palatine Hill (Latin: Mons Palatinus). The other hills are the Capitoline, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, and Aventine (known respectively in Latin as the Mons Capitolinus, Mons Quirinalis, Mons Viminalis, Mons Esquilinus, Mons Caelius, and Mons Aventinus).

"I AM" at Rev 22:16, elsewhere in Peshi tta

There is at least one instance in the Aramaic Revelation of the use of "I AM":

Rev 22:16 (from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com looking at Crawford
(Murdock) I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things before the churches.
I am [Aramaic:  ana ana] the root and offspring of David: like the splendid star of the morning.
(Lamsa) I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The Aramaic NT contains many instances of "I AM" statements.  In the Aramaic it is two instances of "ana"-- "I"-- back to back. The letters are "ana ana," pronounced "ena na," and can be translated as "It is I" or "I AM."  One translator, Glenn David Bauscher, says that 97% of the time in the Old Testament, "ENA-NA" is said by YHWH.  It is a similar situation in the New Testament, where the overwhelming percent of the time, "ena-na" appears to be Yeshua hinting at his being the eternally existent YHWH.  Rarely, it is someone else making an appeal to being God, or someone apparently suggesting that the Meshikha/ Messiah is YHWH, or someone merely saying "It is I"/ "It's me."  To illustrate the very last category, see Lk 1:19 (when the angelic messenger Gabriel speaks), and Jn 9:9 (when a blind man who Yeshua healed speaks).  In the book of John, most of the "I am"s are Yeshua possibly or probably saying "I AM."  I invite you to pull out your New Testament and look at each of these instances, and if you have questions, examine the Khabouris transcription at dukhrana.com:

ENA-NA's and ena-na's in Mt - Acts 16, in the Peshi tta

Mt 14:27, 22:32, 24:5
Mk 6:50, 12:26, 13:6, 14:62
Lk 1:19, 8:9, 21:8, 22:70, 24:36
Jn 1:20, 4:26;
6:20, 35, 41, 48, 51;
8:12, 24, 28, 58;
9:9;
10:7, 9, 11, 14;
11:25; 13:19; 14:6;
15:1, 5;
18:5, 6, 8, 37
Acts 7:32, 8:9, 9:5

Rev 11:1:  do you believe John was asked to use a measuring rod to measure people?

Rev 11:1
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/11-1.htm
And was given to me kalamos/κάλαμος [a measuring rod] like a staff saying,
Rise and metrēson/μέτρησον [measure] the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it.

The notion of measuring people with a measuring rod makes little sense to me.  Let's look at the Aramaic.

Rev 11 (Lamsa), http://dukhrana.com
1 AND there was given to me a reed like unto a rod:  and the angel stood, saying,
Arise and anoint the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship therein.
2 - But leave out the outer court of the temple, and do not anoint it;
for it has been given to the Gentiles;
and they shall tread the holy city under foot for forty and two months.

Anointing the temple, the altar, and the worshipers makes sense to me.  The word in question is m-sh-u-kh, which can mean measure, but can also mean anoint.  Yeshua is the Meshikha, i.e. the Anointed One.

Of the renditions of Rev 11:1 at
https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-1.htm
searching for:  anoint
yields zip.  The Greek texts at
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/11-1.htm
all have μέτρησον/ measure, except for one which has a similar word.

Rocco A. Errico and George M. Lamsa, _Aramaic Light on James through Revelation_ (2006), 232pp., 160:
The Aramaic word _Meshakh_ means both to "anoint" and "measure."  The two words are written and pronounced exactly alike, so the reader and the translator must be guided by the context of the verse.

Greg Glaser's _Crawford Codex Transcript_ (May 2015) from http://dukhrana.com also notes that an alternative translation is "anoint."  He moreover states that the Rev 11:1 Aramaic words for "a rod" and "of a rod/staff" have many possible translations, including pen, reed, candlestick pipe, balance beam, straw, rope, & possessions, and "tribe," "scourging," respectively.  He thinks the most likely translation is "measuring rod."

blood or grape juice in Rev 14:20?

If vineyard clusters of grapes are trodden in a winepress, one gets:  the blood of grapes i.e. grape juice?  blood?

Revelation 14 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)   
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/14.htm
18 Another Angel went out from the altar, who had authority over fire, and he shouted with a great voice to him who had the sharp sickle with him:  "Send your sharp sickle and gather of the clusters of the vineyards of The Earth, because its grapes are large." 19 And the Angel thrust his sickle unto The Earth and gathered the vines of The Earth and cast them into the great winepress [alternate translation:  school house] of the passion [Aramaic:  d'kh-m-th-eh:  of his anger/wrath/fury/passion/burning] of God.  20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city and blood [Aramaic:  dma:  blood, or juice] came out of the winepress unto the bridle of the horses for twelve hundred stadia.

Greg Glaser, _Crawford Codex Transcript_ (May 2015), for Rev 14 http://dukhrana.com
from the CAL
http://cal.huc.edu/getlex.php?coord=620402335&word=4
1 blood Com. --(a)... menstruation Syr. --(b) mortal bloodshed... Syr. (b.1)...‏ even unto death Syr. (b.2) blood guilt Com.; 2 juice Syr.

In the OT, the 'blood of grapes' refers to the juice of grapes, or fermented grape juice:
Genesis 49:11 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/genesis/49-11.htm
He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
Deut 32:14 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deut+32%3A14-15&version=NIV
with curds and milk from herd and flock
and with fattened lambs and goats,
with choice rams of Bashan
and the finest kernels of wheat.
You drank the foaming blood of the grape

Kenneth G.C. Newport, "Semitic Influence in Revelation:  Some Further Evidence" _Andrews University Seminary Studies_ (Autumn 1987), 25:3, 249-256.  PDF at
https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/1987-3/1987-3-02.pdf
In a previous article I suggested that the use of _ek_ in the book of Revelation was under significant Semitic influence.  This significance extended beyond the simple fact that recourse to Hebrew and Aramaic grammar seemed able to explain the otherwise surprisingly high incidence of this preposition in the book, for in certain cases allowance for Hebrew/Aramaic idiom also had important consequences for the translation of the verse involved.
The present study extends my earlier discussion. Here, however, I survey several different prepositional phrases, rather than focusing upon one particular preposition. Thus, while in the first article I endeavored to show that the extent of Semitic influence upon prepositions in Revelation is more than surface deep, the present study suggests that it is ubiquitous.  ....
8. Conclusion
The prepositional phrases surveyed above clearly indicate Semitic influence in the book of Revelation. The list could easily have been expanded: For example, .... all seem dependent upon Semitic syntax.  Thus, the evidence for Semitic influence upon prepositions and prepositional phrases in the book of Revelation is substantial and clear. The exegetes have a duty, therefore, to take seriously the possibility of Semitic influence as they seek to explain the Greek text of this intriguing NT book.

Semitic 'mouth' idioms at Rev 13:6 and Rev 12:16

A.  Semitic idiom:  'open his/my mouth': speak
he opened his mouth and said': he said/spoke

From the NT:

Matthew 5:2-- in the narration (KJV)
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter things which have been kept secret
from the foundation of the world.

Luke 1:64-- in the narration
And his mouth was opened immediately,
and his tongue loosed,
and he spake,
and praised God.

Acts 8:32
The place of the scripture which he read was this,
He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
and like a lamb dumb before his shearer,
so opened he not his mouth:
Acts 8:35-- in the narration
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 10:34-- in the narration
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said,
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 18:14-- in the narration
And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said. . . .

Ephesians 6:19-- in a Pauline letter
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me,
that I may open my mouth boldly,
to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Revelation 13:6-- in the narration
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme his name,
and his tabernacle,
and them that dwell in heaven.

From the OT:

Numbers 22:28
And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass,
and she said unto Balaam,
What have I done unto thee,
that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Judges 11:35
. . . . I have opened my mouth unto the Lord,
and I cannot go back.
Judges 11:36
And she said unto him,
My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord,
do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth. . . .

Job 3:1
After this opened Job his mouth,
and cursed his day.
Job 33:2
Behold, now I have opened my mouth,
my tongue hath spoken in my mouth.
Job 35:16
Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain;
he multiplieth words without knowledge.

Psalm 35:21
Yea, they opened their mouth wide against me, and said,
Aha, aha, our eye hath seen it.
Psalm 38:13
But I, as a deaf man,
heard not;
and I was as a dumb man
that openeth not his mouth.
Psalm 39:9
I was dumb,
I opened not my mouth;
because thou didst it.
Psalm 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable:
I will utter dark sayings of old:
Psalm 109:2
For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me:
they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

Proverbs 31:9
Open thy mouth, judge righteously,
and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
Proverbs 31:26
She openeth her mouth with wisdom;
and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

Isaiah 53:7
He was oppressed,
and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.

Lamentations 2:16
All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee:
they hiss and gnash the teeth:
they say. . . .

Ezekiel 3:27
But when I speak with thee,
I will open thy mouth,
and thou shalt say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord God. . . .
Ezekiel 21:22
At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem,
to appoint captains,
to open the mouth in the slaughter,
to lift up the voice with shouting. . . .
Ezekiel 24:27
In that day shall thy mouth be opened to him which is escaped,
and thou shalt speak,
and be no more dumb. . . .
Ezekiel 33:22
. . . . and my mouth was opened,
and I was no more dumb.

Daniel 10:16
. . . . then I opened my mouth, and spake,
and said unto him that stood before me,
O my lord. . . .

B.  Semitic idiom: the earth opened her mouth

Revelation 12:16 (KJV)
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood
which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

From the OT:

Genesis 4:11
And now art thou cursed from the earth,
which hath opened her mouth
to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord make a new thing,
and the earth open her mouth,
and swallow them up,
with all that appertain unto them,
and they go down quick into the pit;
then ye shall understand that
these men have provoked the Lord.
Numbers 16:32
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Numbers 26:10
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah. . . .

Deuteronomy 11:6
And what he did unto Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, the son of Reuben: how the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their households, and their tents, and all the substance that was in their possession, in the midst of all Israel. . . .

Semitic Idiom at Rev 2:23, 17:17, 18:7:  "heart" = mind/thinking
I'm not aware of any Greek idioms in the New Testament-- are you?
In the OT (and NT), the word "heart" often is a Semitic idiomatic reference to the mind/thinking.

Genesis 6:5 KJV
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21
And the Lord smelled a sweet savour;
and the Lord said in his heart,
I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. . . .
Genesis 17:17
Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart,
Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old?
Genesis 18:5
And I will fetch a morsel of bread,
and comfort ye your hearts;. . . .

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins [kidneys] and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Revelation 18:7
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Semitic idiom at Rev 12:17: seed of ____ = descended from ____, literally or metaphorically
NT instances quoting Semites are less-impressive than narrative portions, e. g. Paul's use of the Semiticism in his letters to various churches.

1 Chronicles 16:13 (KJV)
O ye seed of Israel his servant,
ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
Job 5:25
Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great,
and thine offspring as the grass of the earth.
Job 21:8
Their seed is established in their sight with them,
and their offspring before their eyes.
Psalm 102:28
The children of thy servants shall continue,
and their seed shall be established before thee.
Psalm 105:6
O ye seed of Abraham his servant,
ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Isaiah 44:3
. . . . I will pour my spirit upon thy seed,
and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law?
It was added because of transgressions,
till the seed should come to [about?] whom the promise was made;
and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Romans 9:29
And as Esaias said before,
Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
we had been as Sodoma,
and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Strong's Concordance 4519. sabaóth
https://biblehub.com/greek/4519.htm
sabaóth: Sabaoth, i.e. armies
Original Word: σαβαώθ
Part of Speech: Hebrew Form (Indclinable)
Transliteration: sabaóth
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-ah-owth')
Short Definition: hosts, armies
Definition: hosts, armies.
HELPS Word-studies
4519 sabaṓth (the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew term, bā̓āh, OT 6635) – host(s), an innumerable throng (limitless company). 4519 /sabaṓth ("the Lord of hosts") only occurs in Ro 9:29 and Js 4:5, and correlates to the familiar phrase, "the Lord of hosts" in the OT and LXX.

Rev 2:17: 'hidden manna' or 'stored up manna'?

"Some Greek Words with Hebrew Meanings in the Book of Revelation"
by Kenneth G.C. Newport, _Andrews University Seminary Studies_ (Spring 1988) 26:1, 25-31. PDF:
https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/1988-1/1988-1-03.pdf
Finally, we might notice Rev 2:17, which speaks of "hidden"
manna. "To hide" is the normal translation of the Greek verb
kruptein, and the translators of the NEB, RSV, NIV, and KJV are
therefore justified in their translation. But, as we have shown, the
Greek of Revelation cannot be classed as "normal." In the context
of the passage and in the light of the possible Semitic influence, the
verb might better be translated "stored up." To support this view
we may note that the Hebrew verb sapan ("to treasure" or "to store
up"), is several times translated using kruptein in the LXX
(Prov 1:11, 2:1, 7:1, 10:14; Job 23:12).

Revelation 2:17 (Murdock, from Aramaic) http://dukhrana.com
He that hath ears, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that is victorious, will I give to eat of the hidden [d'matsi:  of the hidden/secrets; of the stored up] manna [Aramaic:  mnna]....

http://cal.huc.edu/getlex.php?coord=630660217&word=13
C ṭšy vb. to hide
G 1 to hide (trans.) Syr.
   2 to hide oneself Qum, Syr, JBA, LJLA.
   3 to be hidden Syr.
D 1 to conceal Syr.
   2 to hide oneself LJLA.
C 1 to hide something Qum, Syr, LJLA. --(a) to store up LJLA.
Dt 1 to hide oneself Qum, JLAtg, Syr, Man, LJLA.
    2 to be hidden LJLA. --(a) to be assimilated Syr.
Ct 1 to be stored up LJLA.

In the original rendition of Rev 13:14 and Rev 14:15, was it long (as it is in Greek), or was it short (as it is in Aramaic)?

Rev 13:14 http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And he will seduce those who dwell upon earth
to the making an image of the beast of prey who had the wound of the sword and lived.
(Murdock) And he seduced them that dwell on the earth,
to erect an image to the beast of prey who had the wound from a sword and recovered.
(Lamsa) Beguiling those who dwell on the earth
to make an image to the wild beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
(KJV) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth
by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should
make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 14:15
(Etheridge) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a great voice to him who sat upon the cloud.
(Murdock) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice, to him that sat on the cloud.
(Lamsa) And another angel came out of the temple, and after he cried with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud,
(KJV) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud,
Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

The Greek word ἐξηράνθη in the longer Greek Rev 14:15 is odd, in that out of its 10 occurrences in the Greek NT, it's always translated into something like 'dried up, withered,' and yet when it comes to Rev 14:15, it's rendered as 'ripe':
https://biblehub.com/greek/exe_ranthe__3583.htm

The Greek word plege in the Greek Rev 13:14 is used in a sense that's odd for that word:
"Some Greek Words with Hebrew Meanings in the Book of Revelation"
by Kenneth G.C. Newport, _Andrews University Seminary Studies_ (Spring 1988) 26:1, 25-31.  PDF:
https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/1988-1/1988-1-03.pdf
So, too, we might note the use of plege at Rev 13:14. The sense
here clearly requires the word to be translated as "wound," which
comes close to the classical meaning of "blow" or "strike."  A
more precise parallel, however, is found in Hebrew, where the
word makka regularly means "wound," a meaning which has
been carried over into the LXX with the word plege (LXX,
3 (Eng. 1) Kgs 22:35; 4 (Eng. 2) Kgs 8:29 and 9:15).

http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=mxwh+N%20&cits=all
mḥwh, mḥwtˀ   (maḥwā, mḥōtā)   n.f.  force....
1  blow  Sam, Syr. OS LkCur10:34 : .... P Lv13:2 : .... P Dt17:8 : ....  P Mk3:11 :... . (a) plague  Syr. P Ex9:14 : ....
2  wound  Syr. P Lv13:55 : .... (a) burden  Syr. P Na1:1 : ....

Was Revelation originally composed in:  Greek?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

_Secrets of Revelation_, by Jacques B. Doukhan (2002) PDF:
http://www.pacificpress.com/pp/misdta/Chapters/0828016453.pdf
The Apocalypse is, therefore, more Hebrew than any other book
of the New Testament. It contains more than 2,000 allusions to the
Hebrew Scriptures, including 400 explicit references and 90 literal
citations of the Pentateuch and the Prophets. With regard to textual
citations, the Apocalypse is more faithful to the original Hebrew
than to its Greek translation, the Septuagint. Ernest Renan observed
that "the language of the Apocalypse is traced from the Hebrew,
thought in Hebrew, and can hardly be understood by those who do
not know Hebrew."

"Revelation: A Hebrew Book" by Blaine Robison (2015)
http://www.blainerobison.com/endtimes/rev-hebrew.htm
     There are a variety of ways in which Hebrew may be seen as the foundation to the Greek text of Revelation and these are noted throughout this commentary.[8] First, there are many Hebrew words that are transliterated into Greek. Transliteration is the attempt to reproduce the sound of a word with the substitution of letters of the target language for the letters of the source language without interpreting the meaning. Examples of transliteration from Hebrew to Greek in Revelation include the words "amen," "Armageddon," "Hebrew," "Jerusalem," "Jew," "Satan," "woe" and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.

     The second evidence of the Hebrew language is the presence of idiomatic words and phrases, which scholars call Hebraisms. An idiom is simply an expression peculiar to a particular language. For example, the phrase "the small and the great," which occurs four times in Revelation (11:18; 13:16; 19:5, 18), actually refers to the young and the old rather than social or economic status. The titles of our Lord reflect the variety of expressions that packaged Jewish theology about God (1:4, 8; 4:8f; 15:3; 16:5; 21:6). Many of the idioms that Yeshua used and are recorded in the Gospels can only be properly understood when interpreted in their Hebrew context.[9] Because of the presence of Hebrew idiomatic expressions, some commentators have erroneously concluded a dependence on rabbinic Judaism as if Yeshua and the apostles simply plagiarized rabbinic teachings without giving them credit. It is more likely that the similarities represent drawing on a common pool of ideas.[10] Idiomatic language in Revelation is discussed in the commentary and the footnotes.

     The third evidence of a Hebrew text is that sometimes taking the Greek literally results in a clumsy English translation or a sentence may even fail to make sense. However, the verse makes perfect sense when translated back into Hebrew. For example, in 10:1 an angel is described with feet like pillars. However, feet cannot be "like pillars," only legs can. The problem is resolved by recognizing that while Greek has separate words for "feet" and "legs" Hebrew has only one word that can mean both. Apparently, a Greek translator unacquainted with Hebrew nuances translated the Hebrew word as "feet" when the intention was "legs."

     The fourth evidence of a Hebrew text is the use of conjunctions. Joining individual words in a list within a sentence or one clause to another with the conjunction "and" is a frequent characteristic feature of the Hebrew Scriptures, whereas in Greek literature an independent clause will be subordinated to the main clause of the sentence and the use of conjunctions minimized.[11] The conjunction "and" in Hebrew functions generally as a prefix to Hebrew words without using a separate word. To make a Hebrew word part of a connecting sequence, the letter vav (v) is added to the noun as its first letter.[12] There are several conjunctions in the Greek language, but kai, meaning "and," also" or "even" is by far the most common in the  New Testament[13] and used in the LXX to translate the vav character. English normally uses a coordinating conjunction only between the last two elements in a series of three or more, so while the KJV faithfully renders kai modern Bible versions leave 80% of the instances of kai untranslated to avoid awkwardness. Yet, in the Greek  New Testament there is an excessive use of kai,[14] an excellent proof of an original Hebrew text.
....
[8] In the ongoing debate over the best English translation the argument usually resorts to a discussion of the best Greek text and whether the TR, M-Text or the earliest MSS should be given greater weight, since the original autographs no longer exist. Scholars have not adequately considered the thesis that the apostles wrote most, if not all, the  New Testament originally in Hebrew and then others translated the circulated works into Greek. The same linguistic evidences for Hebrew can be cited in the rest of the  New Testament.
....
[14] Kai is uncommonly frequent in the apostolic narratives (in well over 3,200 verses) and in over 1,800 verses in the rest of the New Testament. In Revelation kai occurs in 369 out of 384 verses (sixth highest count of New Testament books), occurring in many verses three or more times. Olive Tree Bible Search Engine (http://www.olivetree.com).

I heard today that when learning Aramaic, it helps in understanding Hebrew a lot more. Thoughts?

Also, what if the original NT was also written in Hebrew, not Greek or Aramaic?

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 16, 2018, 12:33:08 AM
I heard today that when learning Aramaic, it helps in understanding Hebrew a lot more. Thoughts?
Also, what if the original NT was also written in Hebrew, not Greek or Aramaic?

Yes, if you know Hebrew (or Arabic), that'll apparently make learning Aramaic easier.  There are many similar words with similar meanings, and the syntax is similar.  I recall reading the opinion that if you're intent on learning Hebrew and Aramaic, it's good to start with learning Aramaic.  A website about learning Aramaic is
https://jesusspokearamaic.com
I've picked up a little Aramaic vocabulary from reading Paul Younan's interlinear translation of Mt - Acts 16, which is at http://pecrapta.org and at http://dukhrana.com
If the NT was originally written in Hebrew, then we lack that Hebrew, and have merely translations from that Hebrew.

Rev 7:17 rhyming poetry in Aramaic
If Rev 7:17's lines are broken this way, there is poetry present in Aramaic:

Rev 7:17 (Crawford Codex, based on Murdock and Glaser), http://dukhrana.com
Because that Lamb,  {last word in line:  d'amra
that is in the middle of the throne,          {karsia
will shepherd/feed/welcome them;        {anun
and will lead/direct/educate them to/between/within life     {kia
and to/between/within fountains [lit.: eyes of water];             {d'mia
and will wipe away all/every/any that tears from their eyes.  {ainihun

The rhyming is a-a-n, a-a-n. There's some alliteration as well with the last words:  d-k-a, k-d-a.
Also, there's a neat use of 2 variants of 'eye': 
aiyntha d'mia i.e. 'eyes of water' i.e. fountains/springs, vs. aiynyhun i.e. 'their eyes.'
Plus there's use of the similar:
d'maia i.e. 'that tears' vs. d'mia i.e. 'of water.'

http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=%28yn+N%20&cits=all
ˁyn, ˁynˀ   (ˁayn/ˁēn, ˁaynā)   n.f.  eye; spring ....
1  eye  Com. Ezra5:5 .... (a) fig.  Syr. P Nm10:31 .... (b) metaph. anything that looks like an eye  .... (c) metaph. focus, center, main part.... (c.1)  chief city  Syr. P Prov23:31.... (c.2) ....the middle of the day....
2  spring  .... P Gn16:7.... spring of water. (a) fountain  Syr. (b) fig.: font, source ....

Rev 8:7:  hail, fire, and:  water?  or blood?

Revelation 8:7 http://www.dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And the First sounded. And there was hail, and fire mingled with the waters,
and they were cast upon the earth ; and the third of the earth burned, and the third of the trees burned, and every green herb burned.
(Murdock) And the first sounded; and there was hail, and fire, which were mingled with water:
and these were thrown upon the earth; and a third part of the earth was burned up, and a third part of the trees were burned, and all green grass was burned.
(Lamsa) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with water,
and they were poured upon the earth: and a third part of the earth was burnt up and a third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
(KJV) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood,
and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up

Rev 20:12:  scroll/book of:  judgment?  or life?

Rev 20:12 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2020%3A12&version=NASB;KJV
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened;
and another book was opened, which is _the book_ of life;
and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Rev 20:12 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English, working with Crawford)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/20.htm
And I saw the dead, great and small, who stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened,
and another scroll was opened, which is of The Judgment [Aramaic:  d'dina:  of judgment],
and the dead were judged from those things that were written in the scrolls, according to their works.

Rev 16:3:  the sea became:  as dead?  as the blood of a dead man?

Aramaic Peshi+ta NT Translation (translating from Crawford?)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
And the second angel poured his bowl into the sea
and the sea became as dead
and every living creature died in the sea.   
KJV
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea;
and it became as the blood of a dead man:
and every living soul died in the sea.   
Murdock (translating from Aramaic Peshi+o?)
And the second angel poured his cup upon the sea;
and it became blood, like that of a dead person;
and every living soul of things in the sea, died.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English, using Crawford
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/16.htm
And the second Angel poured his vessel into The Sea
and The Sea became as dead,
and every living animal in the sea died.

Rev 22:5:  Master YHWH illuminates them and:  their king?  or, is their king?  or, they shall reign?

Aramaic Peshi+ta NT Translation   
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
And there will be no night there
and light will not be needed for them
or a lamp or the light of the sun,
because the LORD God illuminates them
and their king, forever and ever.   
KJV
And there shall be no night there;
and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun;
for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever.   
Murdock (working with Peshi+o?)
And there will be no more night;
and they have no need of the light of a candle,
or of the light of the sun;
because the Lord God giveth them light:
and they will reign for ever and ever.

Rev 22:5 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English, using Crawford)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/22.htm
And there shall be no night there
and neither will they need lights, lamps,
or the light of the Sun,
because THE LORD JEHOVAH God gives them light,
and he is their King for the eternity of eternities.

In Greg Glaser's Interlinear of the Crawford Codex, he translates one word as "and rules them" and adds, "Alternate translation: 'and counsels them', 'and their king'"

Rev 22:15:  seers mentioned?

Rev 22:15 (Greg Glaser, working with Crawford) http://dukhrana.com
and fornicators/whores and murderers/slaughterers and idolatrous workers outside,
and the unclean/defiled and sorcerors/enchanters and all seers and workers of falsehood

Rev 22:15 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/22.htm
"And outside are fornicators, murderers, idol worshipers,
the defiled, sorcerers and all seers and workers of lies."

Rev 22:15 (Aramaic Peshi+ta NT)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
And the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters [will be] outside
and the unclean and the sorcerers and all observers and doers of falsehood.

KJV
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Greg Glaser note on Crawford Codex Rev 20:10, http://dukhrana.com
Every single punishment described throughout the entire literal bible utilizes _finite_ terms (as here with Nyml9-ailmyn ("ages/worlds"), which refers to finite planetary bodies/eras). See Greg Glaser article for full scripture citations. The glory of the Father has the word Nym0-amyn ("perpetual", "continuing") after it (Nym0 Nyml9 Ml9 - ailm ailmyn amyn). In every single instance where the punishment of wrongdoers is described, the word Nym0-amyn is noticeably absent. Accordingly, the literal text does not teach infinite or eternal torment, but rather _finite_ punishment.

"Preacher Man – Get the Mistranslation Out of Hell!" (2015) by Greg Glaser
https://www.logicalhierarchy.com/blog/preacher-man-hell-mistranslation/

Quote from: DavidFord on September 18, 2018, 06:45:47 AM
Greg Glaser note on Crawford Codex Rev 20:10, http://dukhrana.com
Every single punishment described throughout the entire literal bible utilizes _finite_ terms (as here with Nyml9-ailmyn ("ages/worlds"), which refers to finite planetary bodies/eras). See Greg Glaser article for full scripture citations. The glory of the Father has the word Nym0-amyn ("perpetual", "continuing") after it (Nym0 Nyml9 Ml9 - ailm ailmyn amyn). In every single instance where the punishment of wrongdoers is described, the word Nym0-amyn is noticeably absent. Accordingly, the literal text does not teach infinite or eternal torment, but rather _finite_ punishment.

"Preacher Man – Get the Mistranslation Out of Hell!" (2015) by Greg Glaser
https://www.logicalhierarchy.com/blog/preacher-man-hell-mistranslation/

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: And "punishment" if I remember right, in the original is in the sense of "corrective" / corrective discipline

Quote
Rev 22:15 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/22.htm
"And outside are fornicators, murderers, idol worshipers,
the defiled, sorcerers and all seers and workers of lies."

This is the sense I get from the verse:

"And outside ARE fornicators, murderers, idol worshipers,
the defiled, sorcerers and all seers and workers of lies."

That the city/kingdom is present now.. just not, of course, in its fullness.. And full Glory..

Because, we know.. Yhvh / God All-Powerful will be "all in all".

quote -
because THE LORD JEHOVAH (JHVH) God gives them light,
and he is their King for the eternity of eternities.

:banana: :cloud9:

Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2018, 08:15:33 PMAnd "punishment" if I remember right, in the original is in the sense of "corrective" / corrective discipline

3 examples?

Quote from: DavidFord on September 18, 2018, 10:23:34 PM

Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2018, 08:15:33 PMAnd "punishment" if I remember right, in the original is in the sense of "corrective" / corrective discipline

3 examples?

Matthew 25:46, Young's Literal Translation -
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-46.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm  punishment = #G2851 kolasis ►
kolasis: correction
Word Origin
from kolazó
Definition
correction
NASB Translation
punishment (2).

1 John 4:18, Berean Literal Bible -
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/4-18.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm  punishment = #G2851 kolasis ►
kolasis: correction
Word Origin
from kolazó
Definition
correction
NASB Translation
punishment (2).

Strong's Greek 2851
2 Occurrences

Psalm 22:27, Berean Study Bible
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD. All the families of the nations will bow down before Him.

Philippians 2:11, Contemporary English Version
And to the glory of God the Father everyone will openly agree, "Jesus Christ is Lord!"

"agree" or "confess" #G1843 ► exomologeó: to agree, confess (https://biblehub.com/greek/1843.htm)
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly confess); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

.." that God may be all in all." from 1 Cor. 15:28

If God will be all in all, it seems obvious (to me) that any punishment will be "corrective".. As if they remain in error / not corrected, could it be said God Himself will be all in all / will be all things?
:Peace2:

Don't forget these!

Isaiah 26
9With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Hebrews 12
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Revelation 3
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

John 3:16
16for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Transliterations in Greek mss. of Semitic Words and Phrases

Allelouia, Rev 19:1, 19:3, 19:4, 19:6
Abaddon, Rev 9:11
Amen, in Rev:  Rev 1:6, 1:7, 1:18, 3:14, 5:14, 7:12, 19:4, 22:20, 22:21
Armageddon, Rev 16:16
Libanos, Mt 2:11, Rev 18:13         
Manna, Jn 6:31, Jn 6:49, Heb 9:4, Rev 2:17
Satana, in Rev:  Rev 2:9, 2:13, 2:24, 3:9, 12:9, 20:2, 20:7
Woe, in Rev:  Rev 8:13, 9:12, 11:14, 12:12

=======================.
The Bottom Line

Greek mss. of the NT have numerous transliterations of Aramaic and Hebrew words. 
Certain transliterations, e.g. the use of "Bar-", constitute evidence that Jesus and the people around him spoke Aramaic.
Certain transliterations in Pauline epistles constitute evidence that Paul wrote in Aramaic to Aramaic-reading groups; I'm thinking particularly of Kephas and "Maran atha."
Certain transliterated words for which Greek writers probably already had suitable equivalents provide evidence that certain NT books were originally written in Aramaic; I'm thinking particularly of kuminon (cumin), libanos (frankincense, in Mt and Rev), Sabbaton (Saturday), sikera (an alcoholic beverage), and zizanion (a noxious weed that could be confused with wheat).

=======================.
Abaddon, Rev 9:11
https://biblehub.com/greek/3.htm
Abaddon, the angel of the abyss....
Word Origin
of Hebrew origin abaddon

Job 26:6 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+26%3A6&version=OJB
Sheol is naked before Him,
and Avaddon hath no cover.

=====================.
Abba
off web:
Gloss:  Aramaic for father
Definition:  father

In Greek mss., it appears at Mk 14:36; Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6.

=====================.
Akeldama
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/akeldama.html
Aceldama = "Field of Blood"
a field purchased with Judas's betrayal money, located near Jerusalem

It appears here:
Acts 1:19 (DARBY)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1%3A19&version=KJV;HCSB;MOUNCE;DARBY
And it was known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
so that that field was called in their own dialect [Greek:  dialektos] Aceldama;
that is,
field of blood [Greek:  chorion haima].

This passage provides evidence that at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, the "inhabitants of Jerusalem" spoke Aramaic.

The Greek manuscripts' transliteration and translation are markedly different, and in the Aramaic, similarly different in appearance are the first Aramaic phrase and the second Aramaic phrase.

Acts 1:19 (based on Younan)
and this became known to all who lived in Urishlim,
and thus that field was called in the tongue of the area, Khaqel-d'Ma,
that is thurgmh [interpreted], Qurith Dm [Field-of Blood]--

=====================.
Allelouia
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/allelouia.html
praise ye the Lord, Hallelujah

It appears at Rev 19:1, 19:3-4, 19:6.

Strong's Concordance 239. hallélouia
https://biblehub.com/greek/239.htm
hallélouia: hallelujah, alleluia (an adoring exclamation)
Original Word: Ἁλληλούϊα
Part of Speech: Hebrew Form (Indclinable)
Transliteration: hallélouia
Phonetic Spelling: (al-lay-loo'-ee-ah)
Short Definition: Hallelujah, Praise the Lord
Definition: Hallelujah, Praise the Lord.
HELPS Word-studies
239 allēlouia – literally, "praise Yahweh, transliterated hallelujah" (BAGD).

=====================.
Amen
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/amen.html
1.  firm
metaph. faithful
2.  verily, amen
-- at the beginning of a discourse -- surely, truly, of a truth
-- at the end -- so it is, so be it, may it be fulfilled. 
It was a custom, which passed over from the synagogues to the Christian assemblies, that when he who had read or discoursed, had offered up solemn prayer to God, the others responded Amen, and thus made the substance of what was uttered their own.

The word "amen" is a most remarkable word.  It was transliterated directly from the Hebrew into the Greek of the New Testament, then into Latin and into English and many other languages, so that it is practically a universal word.  It has been called the best known word in human speech.  The word is directly related -- in fact, almost identical -- to the Hebrew word for "believe" (amam), or faithful.  Thus, it came to mean "sure" or "truly", an expression of absolute trust and confidence.  -- HMM

"Amen" appears over 125 times in the Greek mss.

=====================.
Armageddon, Rev 16:16

Strong's Concordance 717. Harmagedón
https://biblehub.com/greek/717.htm
Har-Magedon, a mountain of unc. location
Original Word: Ἁρμαγεδών
....Word Origin
of Hebrew origin har and Megiddon

Strong's Concordance 4023b. Megiddon or Megiddo
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4023b.htm
Megiddon or Megiddo: a place in Manasseh
Transliteration: Megiddon or Megiddo
Short Definition: Megiddo
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from gadad
Definition
a place in Manasseh
NASB Translation
Megiddo (12).

Megiddo in the OT
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=megiddo&qs_version=NASB

=======================.
"Bar-"

The retention of "bar-" in the Greek mss. in certain individuals' names provides evidence that at the time of Jesus, parents were naming their children with Aramaic names, and hence, were probably speaking Aramaic.

Tilton, Joshua N. and David N. Bivin.  "Greek Transliterations of Hebrew, Aramaic and Hebrew/Aramaic Words in the Synoptic Gospels" http://www.JerusalemPerspective.com
http://jewishstudies.eteacherbiblical.com/greek-transliteration-hebrew-aramaic-words-david-bivin-joshua-tilton/
The original is at 
http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/12404/
Tilton & Bivin observe that in the Greek NT, there are a "number of foreign words that were transliterated into Greek from either Hebrew or Aramaic (it is often impossible to distinguish Hebrew from Aramaic in Greek transliteration). Since modern translations of the Bible tend to hide these transliterated words, most readers are not aware of how many transliterated words there are in the Synoptic Gospels."

The Greek NT has approximately 138,000 words. 
http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/NT-Statistics-Greek.htm
More than 500 of the words are transliterations of Semitic-- usually Aramaic-- words..

In the Hebrew OT, "ben-" means "son of." 
In the Aramaic portions of the OT, "bar-" means "son of.
"Bar-" appears at Daniel 3:25, 5:22, 5:31, 7:13, Ezra 5:1, 5:2 (twice), and Ezra 6:14. 
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1247.htm
Daniel 7:13 has "kbr ansh."
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/7.htm
In Greek mss., people's names were transliterated (often without an accompanying translation).  Here are some instances of Aramaic names containing "bar-":

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/barabbas.html
Barabbas = "son of a father or master"
the captive robber whom the Jews begged Pilate to release instead of Christ

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bariesous.html
Barjesus = "son of Jesus"
a certain false prophet

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/barionas.html
Barjona = "son of Jonah" [i.e. son of a Dove]
the surname of the apostle Peter

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/barnabas.html
Barnabas = "son of rest" [I'd say son of comfort/ consolation/ encouragement]
the surname of Joses or Joseph, a Levite, a native of Cyprus.... a distinguished Christian teacher and companion and colleague of Paul.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bartholomaios.html
Bartholomew = "son of Tolmai"
one of the twelve apostles of Christ

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/barsabas.html
Barsabas = "son of Sabas"
1.  the surname of a certain Joseph (Acts 1:23)
2.  the surname of a certain Judas (Acts 15:22)

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bartimaios.html
Bartimaeus = "son of Timaeus"
a certain blind man

=====================.
Beelzeboul
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/beelzeboul.html
Beelzebub = "lord of the house" [I'd say:  lord of the:  dung?  flies?]
a name of Satan, the prince of evil spirits

It appears at Mt 10:25, 12:24, 12:27; Mk 3:22; Lk 11:15, 11:18, 11:19.
 
=======================.
"Beth-"

The retention of "beth-" in the Greek mss. in certain places' names provides evidence that at the time of Jesus, people were calling locations by either Aramaic or Hebrew names, and hence, were probably speaking Aramaic or Hebrew.

In the Hebrew OT and the Aramaic NT, "beth-" means "house/place of."  In Greek mss., place names were transliterated (often without an accompanying translation).  Here are some instances of places containing "beth-":

"Bethabara" appeared out of a mistranslation or mistransmission.  In Greek mss. of John 1:28, some things appear jumbled in that some Greek mss. erroneously have 'Beth-Abara' instead of Beth-Aniya.  Beth-Bara was an OT place meaning 'House/Place of a Crossing/Ferry.'  See also
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bethabara.html

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bethania.html
Bethany = "house of dates" or, "house of misery"
1.  a village at the Mount of Olives, about two miles (3 km) from Jerusalem, on or near the normal road to Jericho
2.  a town or village on the east bank of the Jordan, where John was baptising

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bethesda.html
Bethesda = "house of mercy" or "house of flowing water"
the name of a pool near the sheep-gate at Jerusalem, whose waters had curative powers

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bethphage.html
Bethphage = "house of unripe figs"
the name of a hamlet between Jericho and Jerusalem, close to Bethany

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bethleem.html
Bethlehem = "house of bread"
a village about six miles (10 km) south of Jerusalem

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/bethsaida.html
Bethsaida = "house of fish"
1.  a small fishing village on the west shore of Lake Gennesaret, home of Andrew, Peter, Philip and John
2.  a village in lower Gaulanitis on the eastern shore of Lake Gennesaret, not far from where the Jordan empties into it

=====================.
Boanerges

Looking at the Aramaic, we see this:
Mark 3:17 (based on Younan)
and Yaqub the son of Zawdee and Yukhanan the brother of Yaqub, to them he gave the name Bnay-Raghshee [Sons of:  Rage, or Tumult, or Thunder, or Feeling-- per Bauscher], that is, Bnay-Raima [Sons of Thunder].

The Greek mss. have transliterated the first Aramaic phrase, and have translated the second Aramaic phrase:

Mark 3:17 (DARBY)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%203%3A16-17&version=KJV;HCSB;NABRE;MOUNCE;DARBY
and James the [son] of Zebedee, and John the brother of James, and he gave them the surname of Boanerges [Greek:  Boanerges], that is, Sons of thunder [Greek for "Sons of thunder":  hyios bronte];

As noted by
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/boanerges.html
the word origin for Boanerges is Aramaic.

=====================.
Ephphatha
off web:
Gloss:
ephphatha!, be opened!
Definition:
Aramaic, be thou opened, Mk. 7:34

Greek mss. have a transliteration in Mk 7:34, followed by the addition of a gloss:

Mk 7:34 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+7%3A34&version=KJV;HCSB;MOUNCE;DARBY
And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him,
Ephphatha,
that is,
Be opened [Greek:  dianoigo].

Note the stark dissimilarity of the transliteration and the translation.
Here is my transliteration of the Aramaic, with the translation in brackets:

Mk 7:34-35 (based on Younan)
34. And he looked into heaven and sighed and said to him,
"Aetpatak!"[be opened]
35. And at that moment, his ears were opened....

=====================.
Gabbatha
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/gabbatha.html
Gabbatha = "elevated or a platform"
a raised place, elevation
In the Greek was called Lithostrotos, or the pavement of stones, as the Syrian [i.e. Aramaic] version renders it: it is thought to be the room Gazith, in which the sanhedrin sat in the temple when they tried capital causes; and it was so called, because it was paved with smooth, square hewn stones: "it was in the north part; half of it was holy, and half of it was common: and it had two doors, one for that part which was holy, and another for that part that was common; and in that half that was common the sanhedrin sat." So that into this part of it, and by this door, Pilate, though a Gentile, might enter. This place, in the language of the Jews, who at that time spoke Syrian [i.e. Aramaic], was Gabbatha, from its height, as it should seem; though the Syrian and Persian versions read Gaphiphtha, which signifies a fence or enclosure. Mention is made in the Talmud of the upper Gab in the mountain of the house; but whether the same with this Gabbatha, and whether this is the same with the chamber Gazith, is not certain. The Septuagint uses the same word as John here does, and calls by the same name the pavement of the temple on which Israelites fell and worshipped God.

It appears at Jn 19:13.

Geenna
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/geenna.html
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire".  This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

It appears in Greek mss. at Mt 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33; Mk 9:43, 9:45, 9:47; Lk 12:5; James 3:6.  The Peshi+ta James lacks Gehenna.

=====================.
Golgotha
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/golgotha.html
Golgotha = "skull"
the name of a place outside Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified; so called, apparently because its form resembled a skull

It appears at
Mt 27:33; Mk 15:22; Jn 19:17.

=====================.
Hosanna
off web:
Gloss:
Hosanna! (exclamation of praise, originally Save [us]!)
Definition:
Hosanna!  save now, help now

It appears at Mt 21:9, 15; Mk 11:9, 10; Jn 12:13

=====================.
Kananites [some Greek mss. instead have Kananaios]
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/kananites.html
Canaanite = "zealous"
the surname of apostle Simon, otherwise known as "Simon Zelotes"

off web:
Gloss:
Zealot, Cananaean (not related to geographical terms Cana or Canaan); same as {2421}, zealot}
Definition:
a Canaanite

It appears at Mt 10:4; Mk 3:18

=====================.
Kephas

Paul appears to have written 1 Cor and Galatians in Aramaic, using the Aramaic term Kapa (meaning "Rock") to refer to Peter.  In Greek mss., that Aramaic word was transliterated as Kephas.

off web:
Kephas
Cephas (Aramaic for Peter), rock
Definition:
Cephas, Rock, rendered into Greek by Petros

It appears at Jn 1:42; 1 Cor 1:12, 3:22, 9:5, 15:5; Gal 1:18, 2:9, 11, 14.

=====================.
Korbanan
off web:
Definition:
temple treasury, the sacred treasury

It appears at Mt. 27:6

=====================.
Koros
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/koros.html
a corus or cor, the largest Hebrew dry measure (i.e, for wheat, meal etc.) about 10 to 11 bushels (350 to 400 l)

It appears at Luke 16:7.

=====================.
Kuminon
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/kuminon.html
cummin is a cultivated plant in Palestine with seeds that have a bitter warm taste and an aromatic flavor

It appears at Mt 23:23.

=====================.
Libanos         
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/libanos.html
1  the frankincense tree
2  the perfume, frankincense

It appears at Mt 2:11, Rev 18:13.

=====================.
Mammonas
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/mammonas.html
1 mammon
2 treasure
3 riches (where it is personified and opposed to God)

It appears at Mt 6:24; Lk 16:9, 16:11, 16:13.

=====================.
Manna
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/manna.html
manna = "what is it"
1 the food that nourished the Israelites for forty years in the wilderness
2 of the manna was kept in the ark of the covenant
3 symbolically, that which is kept in the heavenly temple for the food of angels and the blessed

It appears at
Jn 6:31, 49; Heb 9:4; Rev 2:17.

=====================.
"Maran atha"
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/maran-atha.html
our Lord cometh or will come

It appears at 1 Cor 16:22.   A similar expression appears in the Aramaic Rev 22:20.

talking about Rev 22:20
https://bible.org/seriespage/revelation-21-22
....  Maranatha (cf. I Cor. 16:22). It is possible to interpret this in several ways:
1. if maranatha, then it is "Our Lord has come"
2.  marana tha, then it is "Our Lord, Come!"
....We learn from the _Didache_ 10:6 that this was the liturgical closing to the Lord's Supper service in John's day.

=====================.
Pharisaios
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/pharisaios.html
A sect that seems to have started after the Jewish exile.  In addition to OT books the Pharisees recognised in oral tradition a standard of belief and life.  They sought for distinction and praise by outward observance of external rites and by outward forms of piety, and such as ceremonial washings, fastings, prayers, and alms giving; and, comparatively negligent of genuine piety, they prided themselves on their fancied good works.  They held strenuously to a belief in the existence of good and evil angels, and to the expectation of a Messiah; and they cherished the hope that the dead, after a preliminary experience either of reward or of penalty in Hades, would be recalled to life by him, and be requited each according to his individual deeds.  In opposition to the usurped dominion of the Herods and the rule of the Romans, they stoutly upheld the theocracy and their country's cause, and possessed great influence with the common people.  According to Josephus they numbered more than 6000.  They were bitter enemies of Jesus and his cause; and were in turn severely rebuked by him for their avarice, ambition, hollow reliance on outward works, and affection of piety in order to gain popularity.

It appears in over 90 places in the Greek mss., e.g. Mt 5:20.

=====================.
Pascha
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/pascha.html
1 the paschal sacrifice (which was accustomed to be offered for the people's deliverance of old from Egypt)
2 the paschal lamb, i.e. the lamb the Israelites were accustomed to slay and eat on the fourteenth day of the month of Nisan (the first month of their year) in memory of the day on which their fathers, preparing to depart from Egypt, were bidden by God to slay and eat a lamb, and to sprinkle their door posts with its blood, that the destroying angel, seeing the blood, might pass over their dwellings; Christ crucified is likened to the slain paschal lamb
3 the paschal supper
4 the paschal feast, the feast of the Passover, extending from the 14th to the 20th day of the month Nisan

It appears in over 25 places in Greek mss., e.g. Lk 2:41.

=====================.
Rabbi
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/rhabbi.html
1 my great one, my honourable sir
2 Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

It appears in 15 places in Greek mss., e.g. Mt 23:7.

=====================.
Raka
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/rhaka.html
1  empty, i.e. a senseless, empty headed man
2  a term of reproach used among the Jews in the time of Christ

I would say the Aramaic "rqa" means "spit," short for "(I) spit (on you)" or "(you are) spit/vile/horrid/foul."  It only appears at Mt 5:22. 
Aramaic to Arabic to Latin to English-- with word-for-word comparison with the Arabic-- produced "O!  horrid one";
Aramaic to Arabic to English produced "Thou foul one"--
see Diatesseron 8:51, translations of J. Hamlyn Hill (1894) and Hope Hogg (1897).

=====================.
Rabboni         
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/rhabboni.html
1 master, chief, prince
2 Rabboni is a title of honour Mary used to address Jesus

It appears at Mk 10:51, Jn 20:16.

=====================.
Sabbaton
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/sabbaton.html
1  the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
1a  the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b  a single sabbath, sabbath day
2  seven days, a week

It appears over 65 times in Greek mss., e.g. Mt 12:10.

=====================.
Sabbatismos
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/sabbatismos.html
1  a keeping sabbath
2  the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

It appears at Heb 4:9.

=====================.
Sabaoth
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/sabaoth.html
"Lord of Sabaoth"  Lord of the armies of Israel, as those who are under the leadership and protection of Jehovah maintain his cause in war

It appears at Rom 9:29, James 5:4.

=====================.
Satanas
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/satanas.html
1  adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
a  the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ....
b  a Satan-like man

It appears over 35 times in Greek mss., e.g. Mt 4:10, Rev 2:9, 2:13, 2:24, 3:9, 12:9, 20:2, 20:7.

=====================.
Saton
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/saton.html
a kind of dry measure, 3 gallons (14 litres)

It appears at Mt 13:33, Lk 13:21.

=====================.
Sikera
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/sikera.html
strong drink, an intoxicating beverage, different from wine; it was a artificial product, made of a mixture of sweet ingredients, whether derived from grain and vegetables, or from the juice of fruits (dates), or a decoction of honey

It appears at Lk 1:15.

=====================.
Woe (i.e. ouai) in the KJV NT and OT
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=woe&qs_version=KJV&limit=500

It appears over 45 times in Greek mss., e.g. Mt. 11:21.

=====================.
Zizanion
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/zizanion.html
a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black

It appears in 8 places in Greek mss., at Mt 13:25, 26, 27, 29, 30, 36, 38, 40.

=====================.
Mark 15:34

Working with the Aramaic, note the close similarity of the 2 transliterations of the 2 different Aramaic dialects:

Mark 15:34 (based on Younan)
And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out in a loud voice and said,
"'Ail!  Ail!  Lamna shwaqthani?'",
that is,
"'Allahi!  Allahi!  Lamna shwaqthani?'"
[My Allaha!  My Allaha!  Why have you spared me?/ Why have you let me live?  Cf. Ps 22:1, which Lamsa translates the Peshi+ta OT as having, "My Allaha, my Allaha, why hast thou let me to live?"]

In Greek mss. for that passage, the second Aramaic dialect line was transliterated and then translated:

Mark 15:34 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+15%3A34&version=KJV;HCSB;MOUNCE;DARBY
with Greek words from
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+15%3A34+&version=KJV;HCSB;MOUNCE;DARBY
And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice,
"Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
which is translated,
"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"[Greek:
ho ego Theos, ho ego Theos, eis tis enkataleipo ego]

Note the stark dissimilarity of Greek manuscripts' transliteration of the Aramaic, compared with the Greek manuscripts' translation.

Quote from: marie glen on September 19, 2018, 08:21:51 PM
.." that God may be all in all." from 1 Cor. 15:28
If God will be all in all, it seems obvious (to me) that any punishment will be "corrective".. As if they remain in error / not corrected, could it be said God Himself will be all in all / will be all things?

If God performs a sufficient number of capital punishments, he could be 'all in all' without the capital punishments having been 'corrective.'

Luke 19:27 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
But to those my enemies,
those who did not desire that I rule over them,
bring them and kill them before me!'"

Quote from: DavidFord on September 20, 2018, 03:44:52 AM

Quote from: marie glen on September 19, 2018, 08:21:51 PM
.." that God may be all in all." from 1 Cor. 15:28
If God will be all in all, it seems obvious (to me) that any punishment will be "corrective".. As if they remain in error / not corrected, could it be said God Himself will be all in all / will be all things?

If God performs a sufficient number of capital punishments, he could be 'all in all' without the capital punishments having been 'corrective.'

Luke 19:27 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
But to those my enemies,
those who did not desire that I rule over them,
bring them and kill them before me!'"

This is the annihilation view, which IMO has more scriptural support and logic to support it compared to ET...

But again IMO universal reconciliation has more scriptural support and logic compared to the other two.

God creates the universe and all life in it...from himself.
For God to then destroy some of his creation is to have him destroy some of himself.

For God to create life knowing He will extinguish it later is IMO contrary to His character revealed to us in Jesus the Christ.

God is love and:

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails

(1 Corinthians 13).

David, currently what do you believe?
Do you believe in eternal hell, finite hell, annihilation, UR...
Do you believe Melivin's vision of hell over all the other visions of hell that are contradictory to his?
Do you believe God metes out punishment or our own consequences are punishment or there is no punishment?

I love fellowship here, I am sad when members leave and happy when new ones arrive...and I am having trouble fellowshipping (is that a word?) with you because you don't reveal too much about what your views or thoughts are.

I know you said you were worried about moderation but there's a post somewhere that can give you general guidelines for posting.

Things like to say "in my opinion"
Not bashing scripture outright

Those two are the biggest in my experience when I've seen people have moderation issues.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 20, 2018, 04:37:46 AMGod creates the universe and all life in it...from himself.
For God to then destroy some of his creation is to have him destroy some of himself.
For God to create life knowing He will extinguish it later is IMO contrary to His character revealed to us in Jesus the Christ.

"God creates... all life... from himself"
Reference?
"God creates the universe... from himself"
Ref?
"For God to then destroy some of his creation"
Do you think God:  ever destroyed a fig tree?  would ever destroy the present physical universe?

Mt 21 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And in the morning when he [Yeshua] returned to the medintha [city], he hungered. 19. And he saw a certain fig tree by the road and came to it and he did not find anything on it except only leaves. And he said to it,
"Let there not be on you again fruit forever!"
And at once, that fig tree withered. 20. And the talmida [students] saw and marveled and were saying, "How quickly the fig tree withered."

QuoteDo you believe in eternal hell, finite hell, annihilation, UR...
Do you believe Melivin's vision of hell over all the other visions of hell that are contradictory to his?
Do you believe God metes out punishment or our own consequences are punishment or there is no punishment?

I'm not a universalist yet, but I'd like univeralism to be true.  The last time I looked into matters, I ditched the neverending-torture position, and became an annihilationist.  I'm persuaded that Sheol exists, Jesus preached there once, people are being tormented there currently, often in quite awful, horrific, nightmarish ways by demons doing to people things that those people did to others while on earth, and I'd like it to be the case that Jesus—who holds the keys of Sheol—will once again preach in Sheol and clear the place out.  Perhaps Sheol's gates will be broken down by the church invading the place.
I consider Mary K. Baxter's _A Divine Revelation of Hell_ hogwash.  I accept Melvin's recounting, and Ian McCormack's, which is different than Melvin's; I wouldn't say they're contradictory accounts, but they certainly are very different.  Different people in hell experience different things, depending on I don't know what-- maybe based on what they did while on earth, and their level of awareness of right vs. wrong.

Luke 12 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
47. And that servant who knows the will of his Lord
and does not prepare for him according to his will,
will be beaten with many (stripes).
48. But he who does not know
and does the thing that is worthy of stripes
will be beaten (with) fewer stripes.
For anyone who is given much to him,
much is required from him.
And he to whom they have committed much to him,
more will they require by his hand.

Bad consequences for one's self often result from one's sin.  God established laws in the universe such that that occurs-- it's not the case that God has to intervene in his universe to dispense punishment. God's wrath typically looks like God allowing people to suffer the bad consequences of their bad actions-- see Romans 1, and Bradley Jersak's _A More Christlike God: A More Beautiful Gospel_
https://www.amazon.com/More-Christlike-God-Beautiful-Gospel/dp/1889973165/
Consequences, e.g. transmission of sexually-transmitted diseases among those engaging in sexual immorality, and sin injuring one's soul thereby giving demons footholds to work with in this life (and the afterlife if one arrives in hell), are built into the universe.

transliterations + translations:  Mt 1:23, Mk 15:34, Mk 3:17, Acts 4:36, Hebrews 7:1-2

In several locations in the Aramaic Peshi+ta, a word or phrase is given in one dialect of Aramaic, and then repeated in another dialect of Aramaic.  Also, at least once an Aramaic term with several possible meanings is given, and then a more-precise term specifying exactly what is meant is given.  In those situations, Greek mss. have as a transliteration the first instance of the word or phrase, and then render in Greek the repetition (or, the more-precise term).  We start by looking at the Aramaic. 

a)  Matthew 1:23 (based on Younan)
"Behold, a virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will call his name Aimnu-Ail,"
which is interpreted 'Aimn Allahan.'
[With-us (is) our-Allaha, i.e. our God is with us]

Note how both the first word and the explanation have "Aimn." 
Also, both "Ail" and "Allaha" are Semitic references to God, judging by Mk 15:34:

==================.
b)  Mark 15:34 (Younan)
And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out in a loud voice and said,
"'Ail! Ail! Lamna shwaqthani?'",
that is,
"'Allahi! Allahi! Lamna shwaqthani?'"

Note how both the first phrase and the recasting of it have "Lamna shwaqthani."
Also, "Allahi" is Aramaic for 'my Allaha,' while 'Ail' strikes me as being 'El'-- short for 'Elohim' i.e. a Hebrew term for 'God.'  In the OT, both Daniel and Michael have 'El'-- short for 'Elohim'-- as part of their names.

==================.
c)  Mark 3:16-17 (Younan)
And he named Shimon the name Keepa, and Yaqub the son of Zawdee and Yukhanan the brother of Yaqub, to them he gave the name Bnay-Raghshee [Sons of:  Rage, or Tumult, or Thunder, or Feeling-- per Bauscher], that is, Bnay-Raima [Sons of Thunder].

Note how both the first phrase and the more-precise rendering of it have "Bnay."

==================.
d)  Acts 4:36 (Younan)
Now Yosip, he who was named by the Shelikha [Apostles] "Bar-Naba," which is interpreted "Bara-d'Buyaa" [Son of Comfort/Encouragement], a Levite from the region of Cyprus. . . .

Note how both the first phrase and the other rendering of it have 'Bar,' which is Aramaic for 'son.'

We now look at those passages in the Greek translation of the Aramaic.

==================.
A)  Matthew 1:23 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201%3A23&version=KJV;HCSB;NABRE;MOUNCE
See, the virgin will become pregnant
and give birth to a son,
and they will name Him Immanuel, which is translated "God is with us."

transliteration of the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic:  Emmanouel
transliteration of the Greek translation:  theos meta hemeis ho
Notice the stark dissimilarity of the transliteration and translation.

==================.
B)  Mark 15:34 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+15%3A34&version=KJV;HCSB;NABRE;MOUNCE;DLNT
And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice,
"Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
which is translated,
"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

transliteration of the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic:  eloi eloi lema sabachthani
transliteration of the Greek translation:  ho ego theos ho ego theos eis tis enkataleipo ego
Notice the stark dissimilarity of the transliteration and translation.
   
==================.
C)  Mark 3:16-17 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%203%3A16-17&version=KJV;HCSB;NABRE;MOUNCE;DLNT
And He appointed the twelve, even Peter (He put the name on Simon), and James, the son of Zebedee, and John, the brother of James (and He put on them the name Boanerges, which means "sons of thunder"),

transliteration of the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic:  Boanerges
transliteration of the Greek translation:  hyios bronte
Notice the stark dissimilarity of the transliteration and translation.

==================.
D)  Acts 4:36 (HCSB)
Joseph, a Levite and a Cypriot by birth, the one the apostles called Barnabas, which is translated Son of Encouragement,

transliteration of the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic:  Barnabas
transliteration of the Greek translation:  hyios paraklesis.
Notice the stark dissimilarity of the transliteration and translation.

==================.
Hebrews 7:1-2

The bottom line is that in the Aramaic for Hebrews 7:1-2, "Mlki-Zdq" got expounded as the partially-similar "Mlka d'Kanutha," while in contrast,
the Greek version has the transliteration "Melchisedek," which it translates as the very-dissimilar "basileus dikaiosyne."
Also, in the Aramaic, "Mlk Shlim" was expounded as the largely similar "Mlka d'Shlma," while in contrast,
the Greek version has the part-translation, part-transliteration "basileus Salem," which it fully-translates as "basileus eirene."

We start with some Aramaic vocabulary. 
Mlki-Zdq -- King-Righteous, i.e. "Righteous King," or:  "King (of) Righteousness"  [could it be 'my righteous king'?]
(Incidentally, "zadiqa" means "righteous/ just, a righteous/ just man," and "Zaduqia" are Sadducees.)
Mlk-Shlim -- king (of) peace
d'mlka -- of the kings
Mlka-d'Kanutha -- king of righteousness
Mlk-Shlim -- king (of) peace
Mlka-d'Shlma -- king of peace

Hebrews 7:1-2 (based on Etheridge + Khabouris, from dukhrana.com)
1.  For this Mlki-Zdq is Mlk-Shlim, the priest of Allaha the Most High. 
And he met Abraham when he returned from the slaughter d'mlka [of the kings], and blessed him.
2.  And to him Abraham separated the tenth from everything that he had with him.
Now his name, being expounded, (is) the Mlka-d'Kanutha;
and again, Mlk-Shlim, which is, Mlka-d'Shlma.

Note how in the Aramaic, there's 6 instances of "mlk"/king, and 3 instances of words having the letters "shlm"/ peace, as the author of Hebrews expresses things slightly differently (in different Aramaic dialects?).

We now examine the Greek transliterations and translations of the passage.

Hebrews 7:1-2 (hybrid of DLNT + MOUNCE; the bracketed "his name" is the DLNT's)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+7%3A1-4&version=KJV;HCSB;NABRE;MOUNCE;DLNT
For this Melchisedek [Melchizedek], basileus-Salem [king _of_ Salem], priest _of_ the Most-High God, remains _a_ priest perpetually-- 
the _one_ having met Abraham returning from the defeat _of_ the basileus [kings] and having eulogeo [blessed] him;
_to_ whom also Abraham divided dekatos [_a_ tenth] from everything;
_who is_ first ([his name] hermeneuo [being translated]), basileus-dikaiosyne [king _of_ righteousness];
and then also basileus-Salem [king _of_ Salem], which is basileus-eirene [king _of_ peace];

transliterations of the Greek transliterations:
Melchisedek:  1 instance
Salem:  2 instances

transliterations of the Greek translations:
basileus (5 instances; translates the Aramaic mlk/ 'king')
dikaiosyne (translates the Aramaic d'kanutha/ 'of righteousness')
eirene (1 instance; translates the Aramaic shlma/ 'peace')

1 Cor 15:55:  flat rendition in some Greek mss.

Of the Greek texts of 1 Cor 15:55 listed at
https://biblehub.com/texts/1_corinthians/15-55.htm
5 have 'θάνατε... θάνατε'/ 'death... death,'
while 4 have the more-interesting 'death... hades.'

From Aramaic:

1Cor 15:55, http://www.dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Where is thy sting, Death ?
and where is thy victory Shiul ?
(Murdock) Where is thy sting, O death ?
And where is thy victory, O grave ?

In the OT:

Hosea 13:14 (NASB)
https://biblehub.com/nasb/hosea/13.htm
Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
Shall I redeem them from death?
O Death, where are your thorns?
O Sheol, where is your sting?
Compassion will be hidden from My sight.

Abaddon:  Rev 9:11 originally in:  Greek?  Hebrew?  Aramaic?

Abaddon in NABRE
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=abaddon&qs_version=NABRE

Job 26:6 (NABRE)
Naked before him is Sheol,
and Abaddon has no covering.

Job 28:22
Abaddon and Death say,
"Only by rumor have we heard of her."

Job 31:12
A fire that would consume down to Abaddon till it uprooted all my crops.

Proverbs 15:11
Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord;
how much more the hearts of mortals!

Proverbs 27:20
Sheol and Abaddon can never be satisfied;
so the eyes of mortals can never be satisfied.

Rev 9:11
They had as their king the angel of the abyss,
whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek Apollyon.

From Aramaic:

Rev 9:11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English, using Crawford)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/revelation/9.htm
And there is a King over them,
the Angel of The Abyss,
whose name in Hebrew is Avadu,
and in Aramaic his name is Shara.

Rev 9:11, based on Glaser, using Crawford
And having upon/over them
malaka – angel(s)/messenger(s) [another mss.:  mlka:  king]
malakeh – his/its angel/messenger
d'thehuma – of the abysses/pits,
d'shameh – of his/its name (Alternate translations: "whose name is" or "that its name")
Aibrayth – in Hebrew
Aibdu – enslaves them,  (An alternate translation is "they slave/work". Or if the name/title
                                             is not meant to be translated then it would just be "Eabdu".)
a'Armayth – and in Aramaic
shma – the name
leh – to him/it
ayth – having/is
Shra – releases/strength.  This word has many alternate translations. Untranslated it would be "Shra". In some interpretations the Hebrew (above) & Aramaic (here) are completely in conflict (ie., slave v. release), but in other translations the two are just different perspectives (i.e., work and strength). I think the point here is to consider multiple meanings, to feel that uncertainty in the reverence/fear of Alha who reigns from above and can summon the realms below at His will.

Glaser re: the 1st transliterated word:
SP has 0klm-mlka ("king") but Crawford has 0k0lm-mlaka ("angel(s)/messenger(s)"). This one difference can change the whole meaning and grammatical flow of the verse, as 0k0lm-mlaka can be read plural or singular. The phrase in SP is ... ("And having over them a king, his/its angel of
the abyss, whose name is in Hebrew, 'enslaves them'."). But the phrase in Crawford is ... ("And having over them an angel, his/its angel of the abyss, whose name is in Hebrew, 'enslaves them'."). I do not know whether to capitalize the "h" in "his angel" because the text does not say who or what commands this angel directly or indirectly.

Semitic parallelism poetry:  Rev 18:21-24

Rev 18:21-24 (Murdock), http://dukhrana.com
And an angel took up a stone like a great millstone,
and cast it into the sea, saying:
So shall Babylon, the great city,
be thrown down with violence,
and shall no more be found:
and the voice of harpers and musicians and pipers and trumpeters,
shall no more be heard in thee;
and no artificer of any trade,
shall be found any more in thee.
And the light of a candle,
shall not be seen in thee;
and the voice of a bridegroom and bride,
shall no more be heard in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth,
because all nations were seduced by thy sorceries.
And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints,
and of all those that have been slain on the earth.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 20, 2018, 05:57:31 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 20, 2018, 04:37:46 AMGod creates the universe and all life in it...from himself.
For God to then destroy some of his creation is to have him destroy some of himself.
For God to create life knowing He will extinguish it later is IMO contrary to His character revealed to us in Jesus the Christ.

"God creates... all life... from himself"
Reference?
"God creates the universe... from himself"
Ref?
"For God to then destroy some of his creation"
Do you think God:  ever destroyed a fig tree?  would ever destroy the present physical universe?

Mt 21 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And in the morning when he [Yeshua] returned to the medintha [city], he hungered. 19. And he saw a certain fig tree by the road and came to it and he did not find anything on it except only leaves. And he said to it,
"Let there not be on you again fruit forever!"
And at once, that fig tree withered. 20. And the talmida [students] saw and marveled and were saying, "How quickly the fig tree withered."

QuoteDo you believe in eternal hell, finite hell, annihilation, UR...
Do you believe Melivin's vision of hell over all the other visions of hell that are contradictory to his?
Do you believe God metes out punishment or our own consequences are punishment or there is no punishment?

I'm not a universalist yet, but I'd like univeralism to be true.  The last time I looked into matters, I ditched the neverending-torture position, and became an annihilationist.  I'm persuaded that Sheol exists, Jesus preached there once, people are being tormented there currently, often in quite awful, horrific, nightmarish ways by demons doing to people things that those people did to others while on earth, and I'd like it to be the case that Jesus—who holds the keys of Sheol—will once again preach in Sheol and clear the place out.  Perhaps Sheol's gates will be broken down by the church invading the place.
I consider Mary K. Baxter's _A Divine Revelation of Hell_ hogwash.  I accept Melvin's recounting, and Ian McCormack's, which is different than Melvin's; I wouldn't say they're contradictory accounts, but they certainly are very different.  Different people in hell experience different things, depending on I don't know what-- maybe based on what they did while on earth, and their level of awareness of right vs. wrong.

Luke 12 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
47. And that servant who knows the will of his Lord
and does not prepare for him according to his will,
will be beaten with many (stripes).
48. But he who does not know
and does the thing that is worthy of stripes
will be beaten (with) fewer stripes.
For anyone who is given much to him,
much is required from him.
And he to whom they have committed much to him,
more will they require by his hand.

Bad consequences for one's self often result from one's sin.  God established laws in the universe such that that occurs-- it's not the case that God has to intervene in his universe to dispense punishment. God's wrath typically looks like God allowing people to suffer the bad consequences of their bad actions-- see Romans 1, and Bradley Jersak's _A More Christlike God: A More Beautiful Gospel_
https://www.amazon.com/More-Christlike-God-Beautiful-Gospel/dp/1889973165/
Consequences, e.g. transmission of sexually-transmitted diseases among those engaging in sexual immorality, and sin injuring one's soul thereby giving demons footholds to work with in this life (and the afterlife if one arrives in hell), are built into the universe.

Ok I guess I don't have sources to *prove* that God made the universe from himself, what I meant was that everything came FROM Him, so I was thinking that we were created from His thoughts spoken into existence (the word aka the Christ) which are a part of God, and from his own substance, since only God existed before creation, and He exists everywhere, and anything he creates he will by default fill with Himself since he is everywhere.

John
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it.

I read that the total amount of matter in the universe can cancel out the total of negative gravitational energy, yielding a universe with zero (or close to zero) net matter/energy, sort of a balanced system that amounts to nothing.

Also, Physicists have discovered that the entire universe is pure energy, and that nothing is solid. In the words of Einstein,
"Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter."

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant, it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.

And some scripture describing the omnipresence of God:

"Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord" (Jer. 23:23–24).

Where can I go from your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there; if I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you (Psalm 139:7-12).

And some scripture about humankind's creation:

Genesis
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,"

Ecc 12
7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

*****

Thanks for clarifying your stance, it was helpful.

One thing I think is that if we would like universal salvation to be true, how much more does God want it to be true, as he is perfect and love and we are neither (yet).

I agree with your last bit about natural laws and consequences for actions.

I also, lately, agree with your stance that Jesus preached in Sheol.

I heard recently that in the creation process God poured out Himself into everything, like water pouring out of the head. So, if everything does not return back to Him, God will literally be incomplete for the rest of eternity, and therefore imperfect. Not a victorious ending, now is it?

Speaking of the universe, apparently matter/atoms is 99% empty space. That was pretty cool to learn.

Rev 13:10: rhyming parallelism in Aramaic

Rev 13:10 (Lamsa), http://dukhrana.com
He who leads into captivity,     [last word:  mubl
shall go into captivity;                [azl
he who kills with the sword,      [qtl
must be killed with the sword.  [nthqtl
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 15:3-4:  rhymes in Aramaic

a a n a n   a a n a n   th

Rev 15:3-4 (slightly modified Murdock), http://dukhrana.com
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,  [last word: d'Alaha
and the song of the Lamb, -------------------------------------------- d'Amra       
and were saying: Great and marvellous are thy deeds, ------------- aibdyn
Lord God Almighty; ------------------------------------------------------ Alaha
just and true are thy deeds, -------------------------------------------- aibdyn

O King of worlds. --------------------------------------------------- d'ailma
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, ------------------------------------ MrYa
and glorify thy name? ----------------------------------------------- l'shmn
Because thou only art holy and just: -------------------------------- khsya
Because all nations shall come and worship before thee, ------- qdmyn

since thy righteousnesses have been revealed. ---------------------- anth

Another take on a translation:
Rev 15:3-4 (Aramaic Peshi+ta NT)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
And they were praising the praise song of Moses, the servant of God,
and the praise song of the Lamb
and were saying, "Great and wondrous [are] your works,
LORD God Almighty,
upright and true [are] your works,

King of the ages.
Who will not fear you, LORD,
and glorify your name?
Because you alone are innocent,
because all the nations will come and will worship before you,
because you are right."

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 21, 2018, 04:29:29 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on September 20, 2018, 05:57:31 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 20, 2018, 04:37:46 AMGod creates the universe and all life in it...from himself.
For God to then destroy some of his creation is to have him destroy some of himself.
For God to create life knowing He will extinguish it later is IMO contrary to His character revealed to us in Jesus the Christ.

"God creates... all life... from himself"
Reference?
"God creates the universe... from himself"
Ref?
"For God to then destroy some of his creation"
Do you think God:  ever destroyed a fig tree?  would ever destroy the present physical universe?

Mt 21 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And in the morning when he [Yeshua] returned to the medintha [city], he hungered. 19. And he saw a certain fig tree by the road and came to it and he did not find anything on it except only leaves. And he said to it,
"Let there not be on you again fruit forever!"
And at once, that fig tree withered. 20. And the talmida [students] saw and marveled and were saying, "How quickly the fig tree withered."

QuoteDo you believe in eternal hell, finite hell, annihilation, UR...
Do you believe Melivin's vision of hell over all the other visions of hell that are contradictory to his?
Do you believe God metes out punishment or our own consequences are punishment or there is no punishment?

I'm not a universalist yet, but I'd like univeralism to be true.  The last time I looked into matters, I ditched the neverending-torture position, and became an annihilationist.  I'm persuaded that Sheol exists, Jesus preached there once, people are being tormented there currently, often in quite awful, horrific, nightmarish ways by demons doing to people things that those people did to others while on earth, and I'd like it to be the case that Jesus—who holds the keys of Sheol—will once again preach in Sheol and clear the place out.  Perhaps Sheol's gates will be broken down by the church invading the place.
I consider Mary K. Baxter's _A Divine Revelation of Hell_ hogwash.  I accept Melvin's recounting, and Ian McCormack's, which is different than Melvin's; I wouldn't say they're contradictory accounts, but they certainly are very different.  Different people in hell experience different things, depending on I don't know what-- maybe based on what they did while on earth, and their level of awareness of right vs. wrong.

Luke 12 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
47. And that servant who knows the will of his Lord
and does not prepare for him according to his will,
will be beaten with many (stripes).
48. But he who does not know
and does the thing that is worthy of stripes
will be beaten (with) fewer stripes.
For anyone who is given much to him,
much is required from him.
And he to whom they have committed much to him,
more will they require by his hand.

Bad consequences for one's self often result from one's sin.  God established laws in the universe such that that occurs-- it's not the case that God has to intervene in his universe to dispense punishment. God's wrath typically looks like God allowing people to suffer the bad consequences of their bad actions-- see Romans 1, and Bradley Jersak's _A More Christlike God: A More Beautiful Gospel_
https://www.amazon.com/More-Christlike-God-Beautiful-Gospel/dp/1889973165/
Consequences, e.g. transmission of sexually-transmitted diseases among those engaging in sexual immorality, and sin injuring one's soul thereby giving demons footholds to work with in this life (and the afterlife if one arrives in hell), are built into the universe.

Ok I guess I don't have sources to *prove* that God made the universe from himself, what I meant was that everything came FROM Him, so I was thinking that we were created from His thoughts spoken into existence (the word aka the Christ) which are a part of God, and from his own substance, since only God existed before creation, and He exists everywhere, and anything he creates he will by default fill with Himself since he is everywhere.

John
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it.

I read that the total amount of matter in the universe can cancel out the total of negative gravitational energy, yielding a universe with zero (or close to zero) net matter/energy, sort of a balanced system that amounts to nothing.

Also, Physicists have discovered that the entire universe is pure energy, and that nothing is solid. In the words of Einstein,
"Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter."

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant, it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.

And some scripture describing the omnipresence of God:

"Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord" (Jer. 23:23–24).

Where can I go from your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there; if I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you (Psalm 139:7-12).

And some scripture about humankind's creation:

Genesis
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,"

Ecc 12
7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

*****

Thanks for clarifying your stance, it was helpful.

One thing I think is that if we would like universal salvation to be true, how much more does God want it to be true, as he is perfect and love and we are neither (yet).

I agree with your last bit about natural laws and consequences for actions.

I also, lately, agree with your stance that Jesus preached in Sheol.

Don't have the sources? Doesn't John 1 do it? You quote it why don't you think it does it? Colossians 1:16-17 should also do it. Hebrews 1:2-3 is another one. And, of course, Revelation 4:11.

Rev 18 Semitic poetry parallelism

Esp. in verses 2-7, 11-14, 21-24.  I revised Murdock's verse 2, and removed from it lines mentioning birds and beasts of prey—they're not in Crawford, and not in dukhrana's interlinear.  I replaced his verse 3's 'wrath' with 'fornication' after looking at interlinears from Glaser and dukhrana.

Rev 18 (Murdock, from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
1 - After these things,
I saw another angel come down from heaven;
and he had great authority
and the earth was illumined by his glory.
2 - And he cried with a strong voice, saying:

Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great:
and hath become a cavern of demons,
and every unclean detestable spirit.
3 - For all the nations
have drunken of the wine of her fornication;
and the kings of the earth
have practised whoredom with her;
and the merchants of the earth
have been enriched by the abundance of her luxuries.

4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying:

Come ye out of her, my people;
that ye may not participate in her sins,
and may not partake of her plagues.
5 - For her sins have reached up to heaven;
and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 - Recompense ye to her,
as she also hath recompensed;
and render to her double,
according to her deeds;
in the cup which she hath mixed,
mix ye to her two fold.
7 - As much as she pleased herself with lasciviousness,
so much of anguish and sorrow give ye to her.
Because she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and I shall see no sorrow;
8 - therefore, in one day, shall these her plagues come,
death, and mourning, and famine;
and she shall be burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 - And the kings of the earth
who committed whoredom
and were lascivious with her,
shall weep, and mourn, and bewail her,
when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 - standing afar off, from fear of her torment, [and] saying,

Alas, alas !
that great city Babylon,
that powerful city;
for in one hour is thy judgment come!

11 - And the merchants of the earth will mourn over her,
because no one purchaseth their cargo;
12 - no more, the cargo of gold, and silver,
and precious stones, and pearls,
and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet,
and every aromatic wood, and all vessels of ivory, and all vessels of very precious wood,
and of brass, and of iron, and of marble,
13 - and cinnamon, and amomum, and aromatics, and unguents, and frankincense,
and wine, and oil,
and fine flour, and wheat,
and beasts of burden, and sheep, and horses, and chariots,
and the bodies and souls of men.
14 - And the fruits which thy soul desired,
have departed from thee;
and all things delicious and splendid
have perished from thee;
and the traders in them
shall obtain them no more.

15 - And they who were enriched from her,
will stand afar off, for fear of her torment;
and will weep and mourn, 16 - saying:

Alas, alas!
that great city,
which was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet,
and gilded with gold, and precious stones, and pearls;
because, in one hour,
such riches are laid waste.

17 - And every pilot, and every navigator to the place,
and the sailors, and all who do business by sea stood afar off,
18 - and cried, when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying:

What [other] is like this great city !

19 - And they cast dust on their heads,
and cried, weeping, and mourning, and saying:

Alas, alas
that great city,
in which all that have ships in the sea became rich,
by her preciousness;
for in one hour she hath become desolate.

20 - Rejoice over her, O heaven,
and ye Angels, and Legates, and Prophets;
because God judgeth your cause with her.

21 - And an angel took up a stone like a great millstone,
and cast it into the sea, saying:

So shall Babylon,
the great city,
be thrown down with violence,
and shall no more be found:
22 - and the voice of harpers and musicians and pipers and trumpeters,
shall no more be heard in thee;
and no artificer of any trade,
shall be found any more in thee.
23 - And the light of a candle,
shall not be seen in thee;
and the voice of a bridegroom and bride,
shall no more be heard in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth,
because all nations were seduced by thy sorceries.
24 - And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints,
and of all those that have been slain on the earth.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 21, 2018, 04:29:29 AM
Ok I guess I don't have sources to *prove* that God made the universe from himself, what I meant was that everything came FROM Him, so I was thinking that we were created from His thoughts spoken into existence (the word aka the Christ) which are a part of God, and from his own substance, since only God existed before creation, and He exists everywhere, and anything he creates he will by default fill with Himself since he is everywhere.

God made angels, some of which fell.  Does God fill fallen angels?

"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant, it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another."

God created matter-energy and space-time in the big bang, creation-out-of-nothing creation event.

"One thing I think is that if we would like universal salvation to be true, how much more does God want it to be true, as he is perfect and love and we are neither (yet)."

Ah, but as Rob Bell asks, 'Does God always get what he wants?'  I bet God is so brilliant that he can give angels and humans free will, and still get what he ultimately wants.

Quote from: CST on September 21, 2018, 05:29:59 PMDon't have the sources? Doesn't John 1 do it? You quote it why don't you think it does it? Colossians 1:16-17 should also do it. Hebrews 1:2-3 is another one. And, of course, Revelation 4:11.

I'm not understanding-- sources for what?  Don't think what does what, exactly?

GIL claimed that God made the universe (all life) from Himself. You asked for references and then GIL replied and said she didn't have the sources. But quoted John 1 all the same. I personally think it is pretty obvious that God created the universe from Himself. I though about it quite a bit recently because it speaks to modern issues on the question of the nature of gender.

"for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17)

"but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Hebrews 1:2-3)

Obviously if you are of the group that doesn't believe Jesus is God you might not be able to read these passages that way. But then you'll already be having problems because if all thing are made through a being that is not God then what has God got to do with the universe?

The also have the problem of Revelation 4:

""Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created." (Revelation 4:11)

At this point you now have to explain, if you don't believe Jesus is God, how He is worthy to receive things only God is really entitled to and is clearly identified as God. Of course, you many think that shouldn't be there though but most of the deity of Jesus doubters obviously think it should.

You ask if God fills fallen angels:

'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

If the fallen angels qualify as 'things' (which they clearly do) then the answer to your question is 'yes, God fills fallen angels.'

Now here is the question: what is gender?

The Bible teaches the God made man (meaning male and female) in His image and after His likeness. The difference between these two words is oft disputed but it suggest at least that man is not a completely original thing and this creates a logical problem for the question of gender.

Because let's say a man is, in principle, entirely like God. If God were actually male as has been traditionally believed. The characteristics of the male gender (whatever they may be) are the characteristics of God. So then what are the characteristics of the female gender? Because they're clearly not the complete antithesis of the characteristics of God are they or else all women would have to be utterly evil which obviously isn't the case despite what some want to believe.

So gender is not an antithetic state but more likely a different balancing of the same characteristics. All of which God has in some form. So what is the balance. While there's some reason to believe there is one historical prejudice makes it harder to identify what it actually is.

So why is that pertinent to the question of whether or not God created the universe out of Himself. It's because He must have done as there was nothing else He could have created it from. Everything in the universe is something God chose to create an idea He had. We have ideas about things that God did not choose to create so, consequentially, these things don't really exist in the world. But everything that God created comes from Himself, He conceived it from His character and according to His will He made it. There is nothing that exist that is alien to God, nothing made that isn't somehow part of His design conforming to what He wanted  to make out of His imagination. The universe can contain nothing that does not have God as its source, if it did God would be overthrown. That is the meaning behind the opening words of the Bible: "In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth." There is nothing God did not make and nothing that does not have God at its source. This is so fundamental only atheists question it. GIL think she has no sources. Every word of the Bible is her source.

David Robert Palmer, The Revelation of John, part of The Holy Bible, The Ancient Greek Text, alternating verse by verse with A new English translation from the Greek, with translator's footnotes and Greek textual variant footnotes (May 2017)
http://bibletranslation.ws/palmer-translation/
PDF:
http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf
170 10:1b The Greek word here, πους, is the word for feet, but in ancient Greek and many other
languages the words for foot or for hand (χειρ) can mean the whole extremity or whole limb.
That is especially true in Revelation, which displays much Aramaic influence. It is far more
appropriate here to speak of a leg being like a column or pillar than a foot being like a column
or pillar.
....
246 13:16b .... An Aramaism is an unusual and rare occurrence, and I think the burden of proof that it is occurring, is on the one saying it is. That said, I have come to believe that Revelation does
show an Aramaic mind in its author. For example, though even ancient Greek the words for
foot πούς and hand χείρ originally meant the whole limb, not just the foot and hand, this is
most definitely always true in Hebrew and Aramaic. The author of Revelation uses πούς,
"foot" to mean the whole limb, where he says the feet of the angel were like "columns" of fire
Legs are like columns, and feet are not. Therefore similarly, we must conclude that in
Revelation 13:16, with χείρ the author means anywhere on the entire upper right limb, not
just the hand.

a little rhyming:  Rev 18:2-3

Rev 18 (modified using Murdock, Lamsa, Glaser, from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
2 - And he cries out with a strong voice, --------- last word:  raba
Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great: -------------------------- rabtha
and has become a dwelling to demons, --------------------- l'shada
and a garrison of every unclean detestable spirit. --------------- a'syntha
3 - Because wine of her fornication was mingled to all nations -- aimma
and kings of the earth fornicated with her ---------------------------- znyu
and the merchants of the earth grew wealthy from the power of her trade. -- aithru

Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 01:53:29 PM'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

Do you believe Jesus preached in Sheol?

Mt 12 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
38. Then, men of the Sapra [Scribes] and of the Pharisees answered and said to him, "Malpana [Teacher], we desire to see a sign from you." 39. And he answered and said to them,
"An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign,
and a sign will not be given to it
except the sign of Yonan [Jonah] the nabia [prophet].
40. For as Yonan was
in the belly of the fish
three days and three nights,
likewise will the Barh-d'Ansha be
in the heart of the earth
three days and three nights.

Romans 10:7 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And who shall descend into the deep of Sheul,
And bring up the Meshiha from among the dead ?
(Murdock) Or, Who descendeth to the abyss of the grave,
and bringeth up Messiah from the place of the dead?
(Lamsa) And who has descended into the abyss of Sheol
and brought up Christ from the dead?

Act 2:24 (APNT)   
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/english-word-search
But God raised him and released the cords of Sheol,
because it was not possible that he should be held captive in Sheol.

Acts 2:31
(Etheridge) And he foresaw and spake concerning,
the resurrection of the Meshiha,
that He would not be left in Shiul,
nor would his body see corruption.

1Pe 3:19-20 (APNT)
And he preached to those souls who were held captive in Sheol,
those who previously were disobedient in the days of Noah,
when [in] the long-suffering of God
he commanded an ark to be made,
in hope of their repentance,
yet only eight souls entered it
and were kept alive on the water.

JM-NT 1Pe 3:18  because even Christ (or: considering that Christ also) died [other MSS: suffered], once for all, concerning and in relation to failures to hit the target (about errors and mistakes; around and encompassing sins [note: some MSS: our failures; other MSS: your failures]) -- a Just One (a rightwised One; One in accord with the Way pointed out; a fair and equitable individual) over (for the sake of) unjust ones (capsized ones; those out of accord with the Way pointed out; unfair and inequitable ones), to the end that He may bring (or: lead; conduct) you folks [other MSS: us] to (or: toward) God.  [He], on the one hand, being put to death in flesh, yet on the other hand, being made alive in spirit (or: indeed, being put to death by flesh, yet, being engendered a living one by spirit or: [the] Spirit), 
1Pe 3:19  journeying (going from one place to another; passing on) within which, He also proclaimed (published; preached; heralded) the message to the spirits in prison (within a guardhouse):
1Pe 3:20  to those being at one time unconvinced (unpersuaded; disobedient; uncompliant) within [the] days of Noah, when (while) he was continuing to be receiving forth and taking away from out of God's state of emotional quietness (taking a long time before rushing or being in a heat of passion; long-enduring patience) while [the] ark was progressively being prepared and equipped (constructed to readiness) -- into which a few folks, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through [the] water (or: were brought safely through, by means of water)

Speaking of verse 18 to 19, I don't know, did He preach to them between His death and resurrection, or after? And, are the Spirits/souls in prison those from Noah's day/before Christ came?

Semiticism in Revelation:  'the small and great' = everyone

from
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=great+small&qs_version=NKJV&limit=500

Revelation 11:18 (NKJV)
The nations were angry,
and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
And that You should reward
Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name,
small and great,
And should destroy those
who destroy the earth."

Revelation 13:16
He causes all,
both small and great,
rich and poor,
free and slave,
to receive a mark
on their right hand
or on their foreheads,

Revelation 19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying,
"Praise our God,
all you His servants
and those who fear Him,
both small and great!"

Revelation 19:18
that you may eat the flesh of kings,
the flesh of captains,
the flesh of mighty men,
the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them,
and the flesh of all people,
free and slave,
both small and great."

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Genesis 19:11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

Deuteronomy 1:17 You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid in any man's presence, for the judgment is God's. ....

1 Samuel 5:9 ....the hand of the Lord was against the city with a very great destruction; and He struck the men of the city, both small and great, and tumors broke out on them.
1 Samuel 30:2 and had taken captive the women and those who were there, from small to great; they did not kill anyone, but carried them away and went their way.

2 Kings 23:2 The king went up to the house of the Lord with all the men of Judah, and with him all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—the priests and the prophets and all the people, both small and great.  ....
2 Kings 25:26 And all the people, small and great, and the captains of the armies, arose and went to Egypt; for they were afraid of the Chaldeans.

1 Chronicles 25:8 And they cast lots for their duty, the small as well as the great, the teacher with the student.
2 Chronicles 31:15 ....to distribute allotments to their brethren by divisions, to the great as well as the small.

Esther 1:5 And when these days were completed, the king made a feast lasting seven days for all the people who were present in Shushan the citadel, from great to small, in the court of the garden of the king's palace.

Job 3:19 The small and great are there, And the servant is free from his master.
Psalm 115:13 He will bless those who fear the Lord, Both small and great.
Jeremiah 16:6 Both the great and the small shall die in this land. ....

Acts 26:22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come—

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 23, 2018, 10:57:25 PM
JM-NT 1Pe 3:18.... Speaking of verse 18 to 19, I don't know, did He preach to them between His death and resurrection, or after? And, are the Spirits/souls in prison those from Noah's day/before Christ came?

It sounds to me like Jesus preached in Sheol after his death and probably before his resurrection, and at the latest before his ascension.
It sounds like the people preached to were from Noah's day, and probably those who died before Noah arrived.  Who knows, maybe it included all those in Sheol who died before Christ died.

1Peter 3 (Lamsa), http://dukhrana.com
17 - For it is better,
if it is the will of God,
that you suffer for good deeds,
rather than for evil doing.
18 - For Christ also once suffered for our sins,
a just man for sinners,
that he might bring you to God,
wherefore while he died in the flesh,
he lives in the Spirit.
19 - And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;
20 - Those who in the past were disobedient;
and in the days of Noah,
when the Spirit of God had patience,
he commanded an ark to be made
in the hope of their repentance,
but only eight souls entered into it,
and were saved by it floating upon the water.
21 - You also are saved in that very manner by baptism,
not merely by washing the filth from the body,
but by confessing God with a clean conscience,
and by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 - Who is taken up to heaven,
and is at the right hand of God;
angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.

Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 01:53:29 PMThe characteristics of the male gender.... So then what are the characteristics of the female gender?

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2311/Feminine-Characteristics-God.htm
We see ample and abundant masculine traits in the Bible: strength, power, decisiveness, aggressiveness, provider, ruler, and leader. Feminine traits are also abundant: beauty, grace, mercy, tenderness, caring, and affectionate.

Mt 23 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
36. Amain I say to you that all these things will come upon this generation.
37. Urishlim! Urishlim!
Murderess of the nabia [prophets]
and stoner of those that are sent to her!
How often I have desired to gather your children
like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and (you) did not desire (it)!
38. Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

Lk 23
27. And a multitude of people was coming after him, and women who were wailing and mourning for him. 28. And Yeshua turned and said to them,
"Daughters of Urishlim,
do not cry for me,
but cry for yourselves
and for your children.
29. For behold the days are coming in which they will say,
Blessed are the barren
and the wombs that have not given birth
and the breasts that have not nursed.'
30. Then you will begin to say to the mountains,
Fall upon us!'
and to the heights,
Cover us!'
31. For if to the green wood they do these things,
what will happen to the dry?"

The Feminine Imagery of God in the Hebrew Bible
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/priscilla-papers/feminine-imagery-god-hebrew-bible
The Hebrews emphasized the ruach Elohim, identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Then even later in the Wisdom literature, including Proverbs and the apocryphal books of Wisdom and Sirach, this holy spirit of God was identified with Lady Wisdom (Prov. 1:20-22; 8:1-9:6; Wis. 1:6-7, 6:22-25).
In summary, in the first two verses of Genesis there is a parallel construction between the masculine and feminine. In the first verse, God, Elohim, creates the heavens and the earth. The noun is masculine and the verb ending is masculine. In the second verse, the ruach Elohim m'reche-phet, the spirit of God hovers. The noun, spirit or breath or wind, is feminine, and the verb ending is feminine. This ruach Elohim (Gen. 1:2) is identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Male and female are in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27). Wisdom is identified as She in the Protestant Book of Proverbs (8:24). The Holy Spirit is identified with the feminine spirit of Wisdom in the Catholic Apocrypha.
....
I am now aware that there are many passages concerning God in the Hebrew describing God in maternal and feminine metaphor, including Deuteronomy 32:18b, where God groans and gives birth in an image of a woman in labor. My foundational concept of the feminine in God is in Genesis in the introduction, where God is described with both masculine and feminine nouns and verbs, as Elohim and ruach Elohim. I now have this awesome certitude that, as a woman, I have been defined in the Hebrew Scripture as made in the image and likeness of God.

Isn't God also in Hebrew mean breasted one or something?

Also, We are ALL made in the image of God, both male AND female are part of His image! And, we are all one in the body of Christ.

David, you bring of the Apocrypha. What do you think of that?

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 24, 2018, 03:30:36 AM
Isn't God also in Hebrew mean breasted one or something?

Michael L. Brown, "No, El Shaddai Does Not Mean 'God With Breasts'" (Feb 8, 2018)
https://askdrbrown.org/library/no-el-shaddai-does-not-mean-'god-breasts'
But there's more. "Calkins read from Genesis Chapter 17, in which God tells Abraham 'I am El Shaddai.' She said that if Episcopalians 'are going to be true to what El Shaddai means, it means God with breasts.'" Yes, the God of Israel is a fertility deity with breasts!  ....Calkins is not the first to make this claim, and I've even heard it in some evangelical circles, where it was taught that God as the "many breasted one" spoke of God as Provider.
But there's not a stitch of scholarly evidence to support this, and I can state that with authority. Not only is my Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University, but I specialized in comparative Semitic lexicography (meaning, understanding dictionary definitions of words in light of the comparative ancient languages).

My doctoral dissertation focused on one Hebrew word (in light of its ancient Near Eastern background), and I own every major Hebrew lexicon and theological encyclopedia. Every single one of them rejects the idea that El Shaddai means "God of (many) breasts." (I even did a short Facebook video, with a large pile of these books in hand, to demonstrate the point.)
It's possible that the name Shaddai is related to an ancient Akkadian word for "mountain," hence depicting God as a Rock, a common scriptural image speaking of power. (Akkadian refers to the language of the Babylonians and Assyrians.) But this is far from certain.
What we do know is that the ancient biblical translators commonly rendered Shaddai with "Almighty," and they likely had a good reason for it. As for the idea that the God of Israel, who identified Himself with male pronouns and used masculine verbs, was depicted as a many-breasted female fertility deity, they would have found the idea blasphemous. So should we.

Quotethe Apocrypha. What do you think of that?

The 1611 King James translated the Apocrypha and printed it as a section between the OT and NT.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Apocrypha-Books/
The material is interesting, esp. Ecclesiasticus i.e. Sirach. 
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ecclesiasticus-Chapter-1/
If memory serves correct, Baruch has what seemed to me to be Messianic prophecies about Jesus.

The Septuagint has the Apocrypha, so I'd say the Apocrypha belongs in the Bible.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/

Quote from: DavidFord on September 23, 2018, 10:18:54 PM

Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 01:53:29 PM'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

Do you believe Jesus preached in Sheol?

Since, that's what that seems to mean, yes. But it also suggests He rescued most all of them. And most importantly it doesn't say He had to teach them the Gospel while they were being tortured by demons which might be a problem for sincerity, attention and morality.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 24, 2018, 02:37:35 AM

Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 01:53:29 PMThe characteristics of the male gender.... So then what are the characteristics of the female gender?

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2311/Feminine-Characteristics-God.htm
We see ample and abundant masculine traits in the Bible: strength, power, decisiveness, aggressiveness, provider, ruler, and leader. Feminine traits are also abundant: beauty, grace, mercy, tenderness, caring, and affectionate.

Mt 23 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
36. Amain I say to you that all these things will come upon this generation.
37. Urishlim! Urishlim!
Murderess of the nabia [prophets]
and stoner of those that are sent to her!
How often I have desired to gather your children
like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and (you) did not desire (it)!
38. Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

Lk 23
27. And a multitude of people was coming after him, and women who were wailing and mourning for him. 28. And Yeshua turned and said to them,
"Daughters of Urishlim,
do not cry for me,
but cry for yourselves
and for your children.
29. For behold the days are coming in which they will say,
Blessed are the barren
and the wombs that have not given birth
and the breasts that have not nursed.'
30. Then you will begin to say to the mountains,
Fall upon us!'
and to the heights,
Cover us!'
31. For if to the green wood they do these things,
what will happen to the dry?"

The Feminine Imagery of God in the Hebrew Bible
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/priscilla-papers/feminine-imagery-god-hebrew-bible
The Hebrews emphasized the ruach Elohim, identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Then even later in the Wisdom literature, including Proverbs and the apocryphal books of Wisdom and Sirach, this holy spirit of God was identified with Lady Wisdom (Prov. 1:20-22; 8:1-9:6; Wis. 1:6-7, 6:22-25).
In summary, in the first two verses of Genesis there is a parallel construction between the masculine and feminine. In the first verse, God, Elohim, creates the heavens and the earth. The noun is masculine and the verb ending is masculine. In the second verse, the ruach Elohim m'reche-phet, the spirit of God hovers. The noun, spirit or breath or wind, is feminine, and the verb ending is feminine. This ruach Elohim (Gen. 1:2) is identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Male and female are in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27). Wisdom is identified as She in the Protestant Book of Proverbs (8:24). The Holy Spirit is identified with the feminine spirit of Wisdom in the Catholic Apocrypha.
....
I am now aware that there are many passages concerning God in the Hebrew describing God in maternal and feminine metaphor, including Deuteronomy 32:18b, where God groans and gives birth in an image of a woman in labor. My foundational concept of the feminine in God is in Genesis in the introduction, where God is described with both masculine and feminine nouns and verbs, as Elohim and ruach Elohim. I now have this awesome certitude that, as a woman, I have been defined in the Hebrew Scripture as made in the image and likeness of God.

Yes, I don't want to get into a discussion about this right now I'm short of time. Nevertheless, you have posted some characteristics that are difficult for the argument for many reasons.

At the moment I just want to know if you take the main point that the universe is somehow made out of God since there is nothing else from which it could come?

Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 01:53:29 PM
GIL claimed that God made the universe (all life) from Himself. You asked for references and then GIL replied and said she didn't have the sources. But quoted John 1 all the same. I personally think it is pretty obvious that God created the universe from Himself. I though about it quite a bit recently because it speaks to modern issues on the question of the nature of gender.

"for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17)

"but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Hebrews 1:2-3)

Obviously if you are of the group that doesn't believe Jesus is God you might not be able to read these passages that way. But then you'll already be having problems because if all thing are made through a being that is not God then what has God got to do with the universe?

The also have the problem of Revelation 4:

""Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created." (Revelation 4:11)

At this point you now have to explain, if you don't believe Jesus is God, how He is worthy to receive things only God is really entitled to and is clearly identified as God. Of course, you many think that shouldn't be there though but most of the deity of Jesus doubters obviously think it should.

You ask if God fills fallen angels:

'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

If the fallen angels qualify as 'things' (which they clearly do) then the answer to your question is 'yes, God fills fallen angels.'

Now here is the question: what is gender?

The Bible teaches the God made man (meaning male and female) in His image and after His likeness. The difference between these two words is oft disputed but it suggest at least that man is not a completely original thing and this creates a logical problem for the question of gender.

Because let's say a man is, in principle, entirely like God. If God were actually male as has been traditionally believed. The characteristics of the male gender (whatever they may be) are the characteristics of God. So then what are the characteristics of the female gender? Because they're clearly not the complete antithesis of the characteristics of God are they or else all women would have to be utterly evil which obviously isn't the case despite what some want to believe.

So gender is not an antithetic state but more likely a different balancing of the same characteristics. All of which God has in some form. So what is the balance. While there's some reason to believe there is one historical prejudice makes it harder to identify what it actually is.

So why is that pertinent to the question of whether or not God created the universe out of Himself. It's because He must have done as there was nothing else He could have created it from. Everything in the universe is something God chose to create an idea He had. We have ideas about things that God did not choose to create so, consequentially, these things don't really exist in the world. But everything that God created comes from Himself, He conceived it from His character and according to His will He made it. There is nothing that exist that is alien to God, nothing made that isn't somehow part of His design conforming to what He wanted  to make out of His imagination. The universe can contain nothing that does not have God as its source, if it did God would be overthrown. That is the meaning behind the opening words of the Bible: "In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth." There is nothing God did not make and nothing that does not have God at its source. This is so fundamental only atheists question it. GIL think she has no sources. Every word of the Bible is her source.

Thanks CST, I appreciate the additional verses you shared. I guess I meant that one can't really prove much of anything because things tend to be up to interpretation, while we all think we are being objective, different people come to different conclusions given the same information so I can't "prove" anything to anyone.

But I do believe that God fills heaven and earth and all that is in it, and I think that belief lends itself to UR as well.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 24, 2018, 05:34:46 AM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 24, 2018, 03:30:36 AM
Isn't God also in Hebrew mean breasted one or something?

Michael L. Brown, "No, El Shaddai Does Not Mean 'God With Breasts'" (Feb 8, 2018)
https://askdrbrown.org/library/no-el-shaddai-does-not-mean-'god-breasts'
But there's more. "Calkins read from Genesis Chapter 17, in which God tells Abraham 'I am El Shaddai.' She said that if Episcopalians 'are going to be true to what El Shaddai means, it means God with breasts.'" Yes, the God of Israel is a fertility deity with breasts!  ....Calkins is not the first to make this claim, and I've even heard it in some evangelical circles, where it was taught that God as the "many breasted one" spoke of God as Provider.
But there's not a stitch of scholarly evidence to support this, and I can state that with authority. Not only is my Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University, but I specialized in comparative Semitic lexicography (meaning, understanding dictionary definitions of words in light of the comparative ancient languages).

My doctoral dissertation focused on one Hebrew word (in light of its ancient Near Eastern background), and I own every major Hebrew lexicon and theological encyclopedia. Every single one of them rejects the idea that El Shaddai means "God of (many) breasts." (I even did a short Facebook video, with a large pile of these books in hand, to demonstrate the point.)
It's possible that the name Shaddai is related to an ancient Akkadian word for "mountain," hence depicting God as a Rock, a common scriptural image speaking of power. (Akkadian refers to the language of the Babylonians and Assyrians.) But this is far from certain.
What we do know is that the ancient biblical translators commonly rendered Shaddai with "Almighty," and they likely had a good reason for it. As for the idea that the God of Israel, who identified Himself with male pronouns and used masculine verbs, was depicted as a many-breasted female fertility deity, they would have found the idea blasphemous. So should we.

Quotethe Apocrypha. What do you think of that?

The 1611 King James translated the Apocrypha and printed it as a section between the OT and NT.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Apocrypha-Books/
The material is interesting, esp. Ecclesiasticus i.e. Sirach. 
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ecclesiasticus-Chapter-1/
If memory serves correct, Baruch has what seemed to me to be Messianic prophecies about Jesus.

The Septuagint has the Apocrypha, so I'd say the Apocrypha belongs in the Bible.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/

I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

Re: God and male/female:

Genesis:
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

So IMO God is both, as we are both made in His image.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 25, 2018, 05:14:50 AM
I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

Maybe you could do that? One of the interesting things to me is how some of the Apocrypha was in the Qumram/Dead Sea Scrolls.

When younger, I remember the Protestant church saying it should not be included because it includes things like Praying for the dead, etc. I feel a bit different(not 100% yet) on that issue, so it is a bit different for me now.

I've only really read what David put(Ecclesiasticus 1) but I find it interesting on the discussion of Wisdom, how it seems related to how God brought forth Wisdom before the depths in Proverbs 8. Unsure if it is just made up or actually inspired. Just want to be lead by God and not lead away, so just being careful.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 25, 2018, 05:42:54 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 25, 2018, 05:14:50 AM
I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

Maybe you could do that? One of the interesting things to me is how some of the Apocrypha was in the Qumram/Dead Sea Scrolls.

When younger, I remember the Protestant church saying it should not be included because it includes things like Praying for the dead, etc. I feel a bit different(not 100% yet) on that issue, so it is a bit different for me now.

I've only really read what David put(Ecclesiasticus 1) but I find it interesting on the discussion of Wisdom, how it seems related to how God brought forth Wisdom before the depths in Proverbs 8. Unsure if it is just made up or actually inspired. Just want to be lead by God and not lead away, so just being careful.

We could start a thread, I don't have time now but I felt moved to post way back when u posted something about the number of books in the Bible, but I got lazy or something and didn't.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 25, 2018, 05:42:54 AM....the Apocrypha.... When younger, I remember the Protestant church saying it should not be included because it includes things like Praying for the dead, etc. .... Just want to be lead by God and not lead away, so just being careful.

1 Thess 5:21 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians+5:20-22&version=NABRE
Test everything; retain what is good.

1 Cor 15:29
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+15:28-30&version=NABRE
Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead?  If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?
Footnote:  15:29 Baptized for the dead: this practice is not further explained here, nor is it necessarily mentioned with approval, but Paul cites it as something in their experience that attests in one more way to belief in the resurrection.

Quote from: CST on September 24, 2018, 02:17:03 PMwant to know if you take the main point that the universe is somehow made out of God since there is nothing else from which it could come?

I agree with what's below.

John 1 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1&version=NABRE
1 In the beginning was the Word,
    and the Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.
2 He [Jesus] was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came to be through him,
    and without him nothing came to be. ....

Col 1
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1&version=NABRE
15 He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God,
    the firstborn of all creation.
16 For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth,
    the visible and the invisible,
    whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;
    all things were created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things,
    and in him all things hold together.

Hebr 11:3 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11%3A3&version=NKJV
By faith we understand that the [a]worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Footnote:  Or ages, Gr. aiones, aeons

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 25, 2018, 05:11:32 AM
Thanks CST, I appreciate the additional verses you shared. I guess I meant that one can't really prove much of anything because things tend to be up to interpretation, while we all think we are being objective, different people come to different conclusions given the same information so I can't "prove" anything to anyone.

But I do believe that God fills heaven and earth and all that is in it, and I think that belief lends itself to UR as well.

That's generally true but the problem i find with that is if you can't prove anything from the Bible, what's the point of the Bible?

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 25, 2018, 05:14:50 AM
I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

As I understand, the primary reason Protestants reject the Apocrypha is that Jews reject the Apocrypha.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 21, 2018, 10:48:23 PM

Ah, but as Rob Bell asks, 'Does God always get what he wants?'  I bet God is so brilliant that he can give angels and humans free will, and still get what he ultimately wants.[/font][/size]

Agreed !...of course He does !...Romans 5 tells us God WILL ultimately save ALL.

I think the Apocrypha is very good for history / the history gap between the Old and New Testaments.. but I find the bible of 66 books to be complete when it comes to the revealing of God's will/intent/as to what it is He is doing and how He "is the savior of all"..

Just chiming in my :2c: :gsmile:

Quote from: darryl on September 25, 2018, 11:21:29 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on September 21, 2018, 10:48:23 PM

Ah, but as Rob Bell asks, 'Does God always get what he wants?'  I bet God is so brilliant that he can give angels and humans free will, and still get what he ultimately wants.[/font][/size]

Agreed !...of course He does !...Romans 5 tells us God WILL ultimately save ALL.

Amen! :thumbsup: :cloud9:

...Though not exactly 'free' will of course, as there's so many influences, limits, etc.. Plus as we know, it is God's choice as to when all come to the faith.. during this lifetime, or sometime after.. (I really think there's only one verse could be assumed to mean after death no hope - when Jesus tells the pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins.. But all this means (to me) is they would rise still in their sins.. To say that is a forever state, imo, is to run with the verse.. (to add to it; kind of like changing all the aions, aionians, etc, to "forever".)

Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 01:06:45 PMthe problem i find with that is if you can't prove anything from the Bible, what's the point of the Bible?

'Proof' is in the eye of the beholder.  Some think the Bible proves that Satan and evil spirits exists, while others don't think that.  Some think the Bible proves Adam and Eve lived, while others disagree.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 26, 2018, 05:39:00 AM

Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 01:06:45 PMthe problem i find with that is if you can't prove anything from the Bible, what's the point of the Bible?

'Proof' is in the eye of the beholder.  Some think the Bible proves that Satan and evil spirits exists, while others don't think that.  Some think the Bible proves Adam and Eve lived, while others disagree.

Yes, but people's refusal to accept proof doesn't automatically invalidate the proof. it's posible to draw the wronf conclusions from the Bible but that may not be because the proof isn't there just that you haven't focused your attention on the right things.

To help discuss this I'm going to dig up your arguments for how the Bible defines gender.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 24, 2018, 02:37:35 AM

Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 01:53:29 PMThe characteristics of the male gender.... So then what are the characteristics of the female gender?

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2311/Feminine-Characteristics-God.htm
We see ample and abundant masculine traits in the Bible: strength, power, decisiveness, aggressiveness, provider, ruler, and leader. Feminine traits are also abundant: beauty, grace, mercy, tenderness, caring, and affectionate.

Mt 23 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
36. Amain I say to you that all these things will come upon this generation.
37. Urishlim! Urishlim!
Murderess of the nabia [prophets]
and stoner of those that are sent to her!
How often I have desired to gather your children
like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and (you) did not desire (it)!
38. Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

Lk 23
27. And a multitude of people was coming after him, and women who were wailing and mourning for him. 28. And Yeshua turned and said to them,
"Daughters of Urishlim,
do not cry for me,
but cry for yourselves
and for your children.
29. For behold the days are coming in which they will say,
Blessed are the barren
and the wombs that have not given birth
and the breasts that have not nursed.'
30. Then you will begin to say to the mountains,
Fall upon us!'
and to the heights,
Cover us!'
31. For if to the green wood they do these things,
what will happen to the dry?"

The Feminine Imagery of God in the Hebrew Bible
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/priscilla-papers/feminine-imagery-god-hebrew-bible
The Hebrews emphasized the ruach Elohim, identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Then even later in the Wisdom literature, including Proverbs and the apocryphal books of Wisdom and Sirach, this holy spirit of God was identified with Lady Wisdom (Prov. 1:20-22; 8:1-9:6; Wis. 1:6-7, 6:22-25).
In summary, in the first two verses of Genesis there is a parallel construction between the masculine and feminine. In the first verse, God, Elohim, creates the heavens and the earth. The noun is masculine and the verb ending is masculine. In the second verse, the ruach Elohim m'reche-phet, the spirit of God hovers. The noun, spirit or breath or wind, is feminine, and the verb ending is feminine. This ruach Elohim (Gen. 1:2) is identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Male and female are in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27). Wisdom is identified as She in the Protestant Book of Proverbs (8:24). The Holy Spirit is identified with the feminine spirit of Wisdom in the Catholic Apocrypha.
....
I am now aware that there are many passages concerning God in the Hebrew describing God in maternal and feminine metaphor, including Deuteronomy 32:18b, where God groans and gives birth in an image of a woman in labor. My foundational concept of the feminine in God is in Genesis in the introduction, where God is described with both masculine and feminine nouns and verbs, as Elohim and ruach Elohim. I now have this awesome certitude that, as a woman, I have been defined in the Hebrew Scripture as made in the image and likeness of God.

Let's take the first 'masculine quality you identify, 'strength'. Is this physical strength you mean here or strength of character? If the former then that is generally a quality of biological sex not gender. Male physiology tend that they will tend, on balance, to eventually develop to be stronger than women but there's a caveat here which I hope to get to presently.

So what about strength of character? I an think of numerous biblical women who appear to show this trait, although sometimes it diminishes as it does in male characters, but mary would seen to have this trait as would Miriam and Deborah. Also numerous women show signs of high physical strength so that doesn't work either.

The major caveat of this point is that it appears to be a major spiritual truth that strength, physical or otherwise grows and develops the more you use it and diminishes the less you use it. This is true for both men and women and pulls the rug from the concept strength is a male characteristic.

So what out your first female characteristic: 'beauty'? Again do you here mean physical beauty or inner beauty? If you mean physical beauty then are all men ugly? Are all women who lack or lose beauty to suddenly be considered men?

And as for inner beauty so man people, both men and women, in the Bible lack this characteristic which of course seems to rule out using inner beauty to define gender.

The second masculine characteristic you name is 'power'. How does that differ from strength here? Power, as I understand, is not something you have as a characteristic but something you attain and attempt to retain. The 'female characteristic of 'grace' (which obviously is not to be confused with grace from God) is similarly subjective. And the Bible is full of powerless men and graceless women and let you say this is a trait of gender based character.

The third male trait you name 'decisiveness' is a trait many men have quite evidently lacked. The male character of Hamlet famously lacks this characteristic, while there are Biblical women both god and evil that display it strongly.

And then you say, 'mercy' is a female characteristic. Oh, that's bold. That's very bold given that the Bible has always presented God, the most merciful being of them all, as primarily male.

That's just the first three characteristics from each set. They all contain these or similar problems. Clearly you have successfully demonstrated how hard gender is to define.

On gender, how about this:

It all comes from God. Whatever trait it is, it is a reflection of Christ, no matter which gender it is. This will become more apparent when everyone is perfected.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 27, 2018, 05:27:31 PM
On gender, how about this:

It all comes from God. Whatever trait it is, it is a reflection of Christ, no matter which gender it is. This will become more apparent when everyone is perfected.

Yeah this is what I was going for when I quoted genesis several posts ago.

God created man and woman in his image.

Both are created in the image of God, man and woman share many traits just in different balance.

Edit: I said man and woman share many traits but I am now thinking this: man and woman share ALL traits just in different balance.

Think of any human trait and try to find one that *only* is characteristic of male or female. Men and women balance each other out but they are not total oppsites in that one has some trait and the other either lacks the trait or has an opposing trait.

But...
Can someone let me know in simple terms what exactly this gender debate is about? I'm sorta fuzzy about where it's going or what the purpose is behind this branching off of the conversation.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 28, 2018, 02:24:14 AM
Can someone let me know in simple terms what exactly this gender debate is about? I'm sorta fuzzy about where it's going or what the purpose is behind this branching off of the conversation.

Yeah, I don't even know why it got on this topic, or why it is a debate. Just one of those tangents, you know...

I am guessing it is an argument on if any traits can be specifically "female" or specifically "male."

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 28, 2018, 02:24:14 AM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 27, 2018, 05:27:31 PM
On gender, how about this:

It all comes from God. Whatever trait it is, it is a reflection of Christ, no matter which gender it is. This will become more apparent when everyone is perfected.

Yeah this is what I was going for when I quoted genesis several posts ago.

God created man and woman in his image.

Both are created in the image of God, man and woman share many traits just in different balance.

Edit: I said man and woman share many traits but I am now thinking this: man and woman share ALL traits just in different balance.

Think of any human trait and try to find one that *only* is characteristic of male or female. Men and women balance each other out but they are not total oppsites in that one has some trait and the other either lacks the trait or has an opposing trait.

But...
Can someone let me know in simple terms what exactly this gender debate is about? I'm sorta fuzzy about where it's going or what the purpose is behind this branching off of the conversation.

I was making one of my arguments into demonstrating your claim that God fills all things.

Essentially what you just said here:

Quoteman and woman share ALL traits just in different balance.

Was what i concluded but that leads to the question of what that balance is 'meant' to be and that's what leads into this discussion. At which point everything becomes tricky.

As I recall when I first considered this it started to become circular and very difficult indeed but I seem to have forgotten a part of my reasoning at present.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 26, 2018, 05:39:00 AM

Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 01:06:45 PMthe problem i find with that is if you can't prove anything from the Bible, what's the point of the Bible?

'Proof' is in the eye of the beholder.  Some think the Bible proves that Satan and evil spirits exists, while others don't think that.  Some think the Bible proves Adam and Eve lived, while others disagree.

Oh yah.. everything as metaphor really bugs me! Sure there's metaphor.. But I think saying everything is metaphor is to both contradict God's Word - I mean He didn't say "in the beginning it was sort of like" -

And is to take away and add to God's Word. I think when it is metaphor, it's rather obvious.. Can God make the sun stand still? Can He make the sun reverse direction for one day? Can a maiden (unmarried, virgin woman) conceive? If God puts the seed in her, yes.

"With God nothing is impossible" including saving all.. and creating a massive universe in six days.. or in a moment, if He so wanted.. Can tame lions in the lion's den.. can keep Daniel safe in a fiery furnace.. Jesus literally healed.. If we begin to metaphor everything, where does it start and stop? Is the resurrection metaphor? Salvation? Too much metaphor to me, is a glorifying of self.. See what great ideas we have? No see how great God's expressed and written will is..

We are a temple of God.. sort of metaphor.. but truth.
The adversary as a roaring lion.. the lion is metaphor.. but being like a lion seeking someone to devour - I consider to be truth.

The Tent of Meeting and Temple.. a lot of metaphor, but also were very literal.

Gehenna as fiery judgment, metaphor, but also a literal valley (where Armageddon will occur).

Babylon, mankind's Great Harlot(Greek pornos) City ($ity?/angel of light? different empires through the ages?) portrayed in much metaphor.. but I'm sure, quite literal., including its products right down to the bodies and souls of people.. ("woe, woe, woe")

The Bible is a Great story and account. And "Truth".

Imo :gsmile:

I do see what you see, and have to agree with you. But, might want to discuss what Jesus means here, what exactly "words are Spirit" means?

John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matthew 13
34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them

John 10
6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Since the Word is speaking, and all of Scripture is the Word of God, I see this as applying to all of Scripture, and we can only know the true meaning  by His Spirit.

Amen! But it is also true, that if we seek we shall find.. If we knock He will open.. If we know how to give good gifts to our children, won't He give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him? He reveals truth, His Word. So we ask Him what it means. And He teaches us to listen.. Those who have ears, let them hear..

(that verse sometimes brings to my mind an image of a person with ears of corn sticking out of their ears.. :laughing7: )

OK, try this rather challenging (particularly if taken entirely literally) passage:

'Now when the Pharisees gathered together to him, with some of the scribes, who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands defiled, that is, unwashed. And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?"'

'And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men."'

'And he called the people to him again, and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)' (Mark 7:1,2, 6-8, 14,15, 17-19)

Apart from the fact the explanation of the parable doesn't sound that different from the parable. Jesus is upbraiding the Pharisees on particular aspects of their behaviour, like putting certain, rather unqualified rules over proper moral conduct. Given that it seem a bit strained that Mark puts in a footnote saying that Jesus declared all foods clean when the topic of the discussion was how to eat not what to eat, but it made the Bible so it must be true.

But there's a catch, I knew if I touch something filthy and then immediately go off and eat with my hands, there's a good chance I'll get sick. So on balance what Jesus says is actually wrong and what the Pharisees advocate is actually correct, lucky, lucky Pharisees because they're not actually advocating it for its health benefit but to control people which is why Jesus attacks it. Jesus is wrong but only because I know something that is beyond the scope of the discussion that was going on at the time. Obviously, Jesus isn't actually wrong and His criticism of the Pharisees is of course correct even though we now know His facts aren't.

I have this trouble with the Bible sometimes, when struggle to even agree with Jesus and have to remember not to take what He said beyond what He actually meant, which might be less than the absolutely literal meaning, literal and allegorical are not the only two choices we have and you have to take a lot more care than that.

Quote from: CST on September 29, 2018, 02:01:47 PMAnd he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)' (Mark 7:1,2, 6-8, 14,15, 17-19)
Apart from the fact the explanation of the parable doesn't sound that different from the parable. Jesus is upbraiding the Pharisees on particular aspects of their behaviour, like putting certain, rather unqualified rules over proper moral conduct. Given that it seem a bit strained that Mark puts in a footnote saying that Jesus declared all foods clean when the topic of the discussion was how to eat not what to eat, but it made the Bible so it must be true.

"it seem a bit strained that Mark puts in a footnote saying that Jesus declared all foods clean when the topic of the discussion was how to eat not what to eat, but it made the Bible"
Do you think that declaration was there in the original rendition of Mk 7:19?

Mark 7:19-20 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%207%3A19-20&version=KJV;NASB;NABRE
19 since it enters not the heart but the stomach and passes out into the latrine?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 "But what comes out of a person, that is what defiles.
Footnotes:
7:19 (Thus he declared all foods clean): if this bold declaration goes back to Jesus, its force was not realized among Jewish Christians in the early church; cf. Acts 10:1–11:18.

Strong's Concordance 2511. katharizó
https://biblehub.com/greek/2511.htm
katharizó: to cleanse
Original Word: καθαρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katharizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I make clean
Definition: I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.

Mark 7:19 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) because it entereth not into his heart, but into his belly,
and is cast out in the purgation which all food purgeth ?
(Murdock) For it doth not enter into his heart, but into his belly,
and is thrown into the digestive process, which carries off all that is eaten.
Mark 7:20
(Etheridge) But that which proceedeth from a man, that polluteth a man.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/7-19.htm
Purging all meats.—This also is peculiar to St. Mark, and presents some difficulties. In the commonly received text, the participle is in the neuter nominative, agreeing with the nominative to the verb "goeth out." But in this construction it is difficult to see in what sense that which goeth into the mouth—itself an article of food, with no special character—can be said to purge or cleanse all other forms of food. The better MSS., however, give the participle in the masculine. This has been explained by many as a grammatical anomaly, and the participle being treated as if it agreed (though in a different case) with the word "draught" or "cesspool," the latter is said to cleanse all meats, as removing the excreta, or impure parts, from them, and leaving only that which nourishes the body. A far better construction, both as to grammar and meaning, is found by making the word "purging," or better, cleansing, agree with the subject of the verb "He saith," in Mark 7:18—"He saith this . . . and in so saying, cleanseth all meats." So taken, the words anticipate, in almost the same terms, the truth of Acts 10:15, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." The construction is tenable grammatically, has the support of high authority both ancient and modern, and obviously gives a much better sense. It is a possible conjecture that the words "cleansing all meats" may have been, at first, a marginal note (like the addition in Mark 7:16), attached to "He saith," and have afterwards found their way into the text.

Expositor's Greek Testament
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/7-19.htm
καθαρίζων (not -ον) is accepted generally as the true reading, but how is it to be construed? as the nominative absolute referring to ἀφεδρῶνα, giving the sense: evacuation purges the body from all matter it cannot assimilate? So most recent commentators. Or ought we not to terminate the words of Jesus at ἐκπορεύεται with a mark of interrogation, and take what follows as a comment of the evangelist? = ἐκπορεύεται;—καθαρίζων, etc.: this He said, purging all meats; making all meats clean, abolishing the ceremonial distinctions of the Levitical law.

Col 3:6-7 Semiticisms: the sons of disobedience = the disobedient; walked = conducted moral/ethical life

Did Col 3:6-7 originally say that some once walked in the sons of disobedience?

Colossians 3:6-7 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col+3%3A6-7&version=DLNT
6 because of which _things_ the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which^b _things_ you also formerly walked when you were living in these _things_.
b:  Or, among whom you.

Colossians 3:6-7
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/3-6.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/3-7.htm
because of which things is coming the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience
in which also you walked once when you were living in them

Strong's Concordance 4043. peripateó
https://biblehub.com/greek/4043.htm
peripateó: to walk
Original Word: περιπατέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peripateó
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ee-pat-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I walk, conduct my life
Definition: I walk, hence Hebraistically (in an ethical sense): I conduct my life, live.
HELPS Word-studies
4043 peripatéō (from 4012 /perí, "comprehensively around," which intensifies 3961 /patéō, "walk") – properly, walk around, i.e. in a complete circuit

https://biblehub.com/greek/periepate_sate_4043.htm
περιεπατήσατε (periepatēsate) — 2 Occurrences
Ephesians 2:2 V-AIA-2P
GRK: αἷς ποτὲ περιεπατήσατε κατὰ τὸν
NAS: you formerly walked according
KJV: in time past ye walked according to....
Colossians 3:7 V-AIA-2P
GRK: καὶ ὑμεῖς περιεπατήσατέ ποτε ὅτε
NAS: once walked, when
KJV: ye also walked some time, when

2Cor 4:9:  Semitic parallelism poetry, alliteration and rhyming

2Cor 4:8 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) But in every thing we are afflicted,
yet not strangled;
we are beaten,
yet not condemned;
(Murdock) And in every thing we are oppressed,
but not suffocated;
we are corrected,
but not condemned;
(Lamsa) We are distressed in every way,
but not overwhelmed;
we are harassed on all sides,
but not conquered;

2Corinthians 4:9
(Etheridge) persecuted,
yet not forsaken;
cast down,
yet we perish not.
(Murdock) we are persecuted,
but not forsaken;
we are prostrated,
but perish not.
(Lamsa) Persecuted,
but not forsaken;
cast down,
but not destroyed;

Note the Aramaic verse 9's extensive rhyming and alliteration.  ("Ala la" means "but not.")
interlinear for 2Co 4:9
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
          m-th-r-d-p-i-n-n
ala la m-sh-th-b-q-i-n-n
          m-s-th-kh-p-i-n-n
ala la a-b-d-i-n-n

2Co 4:8's lines all end with an "i-n" sound.
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search

Phil 4:8-9:  much rhyming in Aramaic
Verse 8's first line ends in "i," while the remaining 4 lines, plus the first 5 out of 12 words in verse 9, end in "n."

Janet Magiera, from Aramaic
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
8 From now on my brothers
those [things] that are true
and those [things] that are modest
and those [things] that are upright
and those [things] that are pure
9 Those [things] that you have learned
and received and heard and seen in me
these do
and the God of peace

1 Tim 5:10: much rhyming in Aramaic
The first 5 lines end in "a" in the Aramaic, while the last line ends in "b."

1Ti 5:10; for the first line, I replaced Janet Magiera's 'good' with 'beautiful' given the underlying Aramaic 'shapira'
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
and has a reputation of works beautiful
whether she brought up children
or received strangers
or washed the feet of holy [ones]
or relieved troubled [ones]
or walked in everything work good

Semiticism in NT:  'cried out, saying' 'spoke, saying'

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Redundant use of "saying." Indirect speech is unknown in biblical Hebrew; all speech is recorded directly, whether the words recorded were the actual words spoken or represented the general meaning of what was said. The Hebrew word most closely corresponding to the Greek participle _legon_ "saying" is used to introduce the quotation. This idiom is well illustrated in Mark 8:28, "And they said to him, saying (_legontes_), 'John the Baptist'." For other examples of this idiom, see Mt 23:1-2, 28:18, Luke 14:3, 24:6-7.

'cried, saying' in KJV Revelation
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:18  And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

'spoke, saying' and a 'cried-out, saying' in DLNT Revelation
Rev 7:2-3  And I saw another angel coming-up from the rising of the sun, having a seal of the living God. And he cried-out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to them to harm the land and the sea, saying "Do not harm the land nor the sea nor the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads".
Rev 17:1  And one of the seven angels having the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute sitting on many waters,
Rev 21:9  And one of the seven angels having the seven bowls being-full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb".

2 more redundant "saying"/"said" in Revelation
Rev 7:13 (KJV)  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 10:8 (KJV)  And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said,
Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

from searching KJV for:  cried saying
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=cried+saying&qs_version=KJV&limit=500
Genesis 39:14  That she called unto the men of her house, and spake unto them, saying, See, he hath brought in an Hebrew unto us to mock us; he came in unto me to lie with me, and I cried with a loud voice:

Exodus 5:15  Then the officers of the children of Israel came and cried unto Pharaoh, saying, Wherefore dealest thou thus with thy servants?
Exodus 17:4  And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

Numbers 12:13  And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

Judges 10:10  And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, saying, We have sinned against thee, both because we have forsaken our God, and also served Baalim.

1 Samuel 5:10  Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. And it came to pass, as the ark of God came to Ekron, that the Ekronites cried out, saying, They have brought about the ark of the God of Israel to us, to slay us and our people.
1 Samuel 24:8  David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David stooped with his face to the earth, and bowed himself.
1 Samuel 26:14  And David cried to the people, and to Abner the son of Ner, saying, Answerest thou not, Abner? Then Abner answered and said, Who art thou that criest to the king?
1 Samuel 28:12  And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

1 Kings 13:21  And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee,

2 Kings 4:1  Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the Lord: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen.
2 Kings 6:26  And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king.
2 Kings 18:28  Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:

Ezekiel 9:1  He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

Zechariah 1:4  Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the Lord.
Zechariah 6:8  Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.

Mt 8:29  And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mt 14:30  But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Mt 15:22  And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mt 20:30  And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
Mt 20:31  And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
Mt 21:9  And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Mt 27:23  And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
Mt 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 3:11  And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Mark 11:9  And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
Mark 15:34  And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Luke 9:38  And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.
Luke 18:38  And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
Luke 23:18 And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas:
Luke 23:21 But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 7:28  Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
John 18:40  Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.
John 19:6  When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
John 19:12  And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

Acts 16:17  The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Acts 16:28  But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Acts 19:28  And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

from searching DLNT for:  spoke saying
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=spoke+saying&qs_version=DLNT&limit=500
Mt 1:22  And this entire thing has taken place in order that the thing might be fulfilled having been spoken by the Lord through the prophet saying
Mt 2:15  and was there until the end of Herod— in order that the thing might be fulfilled having been spoken by the Lord through the prophet saying "I called My Son out of Egypt" [Hos 11:1].
Mt 2:17  Then the thing was fulfilled having been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet saying
Mt 3:3  For this one is the one having been spoken of through Isaiah the prophet saying [in Isa 40:3], "A voice of one shouting in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, be making His paths straight'".
Mt 4:14  in order that the thing might be fulfilled having been spoken through Isaiah the prophet saying
Mt 8:17  so that the thing might be fulfilled having been spoken through Isaiah the prophet saying "He took our weaknesses, and carried our diseases" [Isa 53:4].
Mt 12:17  in order that the thing might be fulfilled having been spoken through Isaiah the prophet saying
Mt 13:3  And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying— "Behold— the one sowing went out that he might sow.
Mt 13:35  so that the thing might be fulfilled having been spoken through the prophet saying "I will open My mouth in parables. I will utter things having been hidden since the foundation of the world" [Ps 78:2].
Mt 14:27  But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Take-courage, I am the One. Do not be afraid".
Mt 21:4  Now this has taken place in order that the thing might be fulfilled having been spoken through the prophet saying:
Mt 22:1  And having responded, Jesus again spoke in parables to them, saying,
Mt 22:31  And concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read the thing having been spoken to you by God, saying [in Ex 3:15]
Mt 27:9  Then the thing was fulfilled having been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet saying "And they took the thirty silver-coins— the price of the One having been priced, Whom they from the sons of Israel priced—
Mt 28:18  And having come to them, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me.

Mark 8:28  And the ones spoke to Him, saying "That You are John the Baptist. And others, Elijah. But others, that You are one of the prophets".
Mark 12:26  And concerning the dead, that they are raised, did you not read in the book of Moses at the [place about the burning] bush, how God spoke to him, saying [in Ex 3:15] 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

Luke 7:39  And having seen it, the Pharisee having invited Him spoke within himself, saying, "If this One were a prophet, He would know who and what-kind-of person the woman is who is touching Him— that she is a sinner".
Luke 12:16  And He spoke a parable to them, saying, "The land of a certain rich man was productive.
Luke 14:3  And having responded, Jesus spoke to the Law-experts and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath, or not?"
Luke 20:2  And they spoke, saying to Him, "Tell us, by what-kind-of  authority are You doing these things, or who is the one having given You this authority?"

John 8:12  Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. The one following Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of  life".

Acts 8:26  Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Arise and go toward the south on the road going down from Jerusalem to Gaza". This is a wilderness [road].

Aramaicism:  'behold' in Revelation

Does anyone here think Revelation was originally composed in Greek?

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
The use of idou. The particle idou "behold," found in the New Testament especially in Matthew and Luke, is often used in imitation of the corresponding Hebrew expression (hinne). It is quite genuine Greek (compare English "look here!"),^3 but used frequently it is a natural product of Semitic speech. New Testament examples include Matthew 1:20, 2:9, 3:16, Luke 1:20, 1:31, 1:36, 2:25, Acts 12:7, James 5:9. In GNB, NIV, and NEB the term is usually left untranslated.
Marlowe's footnote:
3. Black's statement that the usage of ιδου in the NT is "quite genuine Greek" needs qualification. It is of course a Greek word, meaning "look," but its usage in the New Testament is distinctly Hebraistic, and not colloquial Greek at all. In many places it does not correspond in meaning with "look here," or any normal usage of ιδου found in secular Greek literature or non-literary papyri; but its range of use does correspond exactly with that of the Hebrew interjections הֵן (hen) and הִנֵּה (hinneh), which were translated as ιδου in the Septuagint. This is admitted even by James Hope Moulton, who tended to deny the existence of Hebraisms: "We very rarely use the interjection 'Behold' in ordinary speech, and normal late Greek speech did not use it much more than we do. In those parts of the New Testament which come from Aramaic sources, or are written by men (like St. James) who continued to use Aramaic as their ordinary language, we find this 'behold' extremely often." (_The Science of Language and the Study of the New Testament_ [Manchester, University Press, 1906], p. 16.)

ἰδοὺ (idou) in Romans+, using
https://biblehub.com/greek/idou_3708.htm
Romans 9:33  INT [Greek interlinear]:  as it has been written Behold I place in
1 Corinthians 15:51  INT:  Behold a mystery to you
2 Corinthians 5:17  INT:  old things passed away Behold have become new
2 Corinthians 6:2  INT:  I helped you Behold now [the] time
2 Corinthians 6:2  INT:  [the] time well-accepted behold now [the] day
2 Corinthians 6:9  INT:  dying and Behold we live as
2 Corinthians 7:11  INT:  Behold indeed this very
2 Corinthians 12:14  INT:  Behold third time this
Galatians 1:20  INT:  I write to you Behold before
Hebrews 2:13  INT:  And again Behold I and
Hebrews 8:8  INT:  to them he says Behold days are coming
Hebrews 10:7  INT:  Then I said Behold I come in
Hebrews 10:9  INT:  then he said Behold I come
James 3:4  INT:  Behold also the
James 3:5  INT:  exceeding things boasts Behold a little fire
James 5:4  INT:  Behold the wage
James 5:7  INT:  of the Lord Behold the farmer
James 5:9  INT:  not you be condemned Behold the judge
James 5:11  INT:  Behold we call blessed the [ones]
1 Peter 2:6  INT:  in Scripture Behold I place in
Jude 1:14  INT:  Enoch saying Behold came [the] Lord

Rev 1:7  INT:  Behold he comes with
Rev 1:18  INT:  dead and behold alive I am
Rev 2:10  INT:  you are about to suffer Behold is about to cast
Rev 2:22  INT:  Behold cast her
Rev 3:8  INT:  works Behold I have set before
Rev 3:9  INT:  Behold I give of
Rev 3:9  INT:  but do lie Behold I will cause them
Rev 3:20  INT:  Behold I stand at
Rev 4:1  INT:  I looked and behold a door opened
Rev 4:2  INT:  [the] Spirit and behold a throne was set
Rev 5:5  INT:  not Do weep Behold overcame the
Rev 6:2  INT:  I saw and behold a horse white
Rev 6:5  INT:  I looked And behold a horse black
Rev 6:8  INT:  I looked and behold a horse pale
Rev 7:9  INT:  I looked and behold a crowd great
Rev 9:12  INT:  first is past Behold come yet
Rev 11:14  INT:  second is past Behold the woe
Rev 12:3  INT:  heaven and behold a dragon great
Rev 14:1  INT:  I saw and behold the Lamb
Rev 14:14  INT:  I looked and behold a cloud white
Rev 16:15  INT:  Behold I come as
Rev 19:11  INT:  opened and behold a horse white
Rev 21:3  INT:  heaven saying Behold the tabernacle
Rev 21:5  INT:  the throne Behold new I make
Rev 22:7  INT:  and Behold I am coming quickly
Rev 22:12  INT:  behold I am coming quickly

the corresponding KJV for Rev (later augmented with DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=behold&begin=73&end=73&limit=500
Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 2:10  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 3:8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 9:12  One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

verses with idou in Greek not rendered as 'behold' by the KJV, and rendered as 'behold' in the DLNT
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=DLNT&quicksearch=behold&begin=73&end=73&limit=500
Rev 6:5  And when He opened the third seal, I heard the third living-creature saying, "Come". And I saw, and behold— there was a black horse, and the one sitting on it holding a balance-scale in his hand.
Rev 7:9  After these things I saw, and behold— there was a great multitude (which, no one was able to number it) from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, having been clothed-with white robes, and palm-branches in their hands
Rev 14:1  And I saw, and behold— the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one-hundred forty four thousand having His name and the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.

Semiticism:   body of _noun_, son of _noun_ = adjective

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Adjectival substitutes. In Hebrew the so-called construct state largely took the place of the adjective. In this construction two nouns stand together, and the second noun (as genitive) limits or qualifies the first one. Greek has a corresponding use of the genitive case of a noun in an adjectival sense. The two most characteristically Semitic idioms are (1) the genitive of an abstract noun in place of an adjective of quality, and (2) the use of "son" (huios) with a following genitive of origin or definition. The former idiom, sometimes called the "Hebrew genitive," is found for example in Philippians 3:21, where Paul describes "our lowly body" (literally "the body of our lowliness"), and "his glorious body" (literally "the body of his glory"). New Testament instances of huios and the genitive include Luke 10:6 "a peace-loving man" (literally "a son of peace"), 1 Thessalonians 5:5 "people who belong to the light" (literally "sons of light"), and Colossians 1:13 "his dear son" (literally "the son of his love").

==============================
Philippians 3:21 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phil+3%3A21&version=DLNT
Who will transform the body of our lowliness
so as to be similar-in-formto the body of His glory,
according-to the working that enables Him
also to subject all things to Himself.

the body of our lowliness = our lowly body
the body of His glory = His glorious body

Romans 6:6
knowing this: that our old person was crucified-with Him
in order that the body of sin might be done-away-with,
so that we no longer are-slaves to sin.

the body of sin = the sinful body

Romans 7:24
I am a wretched person! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

body of death = dead body?  deadly body?  dying body?  mortal body?

Colossians 1:22
But now He reconciled you in the body of His flesh through His death,
that He might present you holy and without-blemish and blameless in His presence—

body of His flesh = His fleshly/physical body

Colossians 2:11
in Whom you also were circumcised with a circumcision not-done-by-human-hands,
in the taking-off of the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ—

body of the flesh = fleshly/physical/sensual/carnal/sinful/fallen body

==============================
Acts 4:36 (DLNT) Now Joseph— the one having been called Barnabas by the apostles (which being translated is "son of encouragement"), a Levite, a Cyprian by nationality,

son of encouragement = encourager

Colossians 1:13 (DLNT) Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

Son of His love = his beloved son

Luke 10:6 (KJV) And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

son of peace = peaceful person

==============================
Luke 16:8 (NKJV)
So the master commended the unjust steward
because he had dealt shrewdly.
For the sons of this world
are more shrewd in their generation
than the sons of light.

sons of this world = worldly people
sons of light i.e. sons of the light/Light/God = godly people

Luke 20:34-36 (DLNT)
34 And Jesus said to them,
"The sons of this age marry and are given-in-marriage.
35 But the ones having been considered-worthy
to attain that age
and the resurrection from the dead
neither marry,
nor are they given-in-marriage.
36 For they are not even still able to die,
for they are angel-like.
And they are sons of God,
being sons of the resurrection.

sons of this age = currently-living people
sons of God = godly people
sons of the resurrection = resurrected people

==============================
Matthew 23:15 (DLNT) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you go-around the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte. And when he becomes one, you make him a son of Gehenna double-more than you.

son of Gehenna = hellish man?  Gehenna-headed man?  murderer?  slaughterer?

a)  Ephesians 2:2 (DLNT) in which you formerly walked in accordance with the [present] age of this world, in accordance with the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit now being at-work in the sons of disobedience,
b)  Ephesians 5:6 (DLNT) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.
c)  Colossians 3:6 (DLNT) because of which things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

the sons of disobedience = the disobedient

John 17:12 (DLNT) When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given to Me. And I guarded them, and none of them perished— except the son of destruction, in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

son of destruction = destroyed man?  destroying man?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (DLNT) Let no one deceive you in any way, because it will not be present unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed— the son of destruction,

son of destruction = destroyed man?  destroying man?

==============================
Luke 6:35 (DLNT)
But be loving your enemies,
and be doing good,
and be lending, expecting-back nothing,
and your reward will be great.
And you will be sons of the Most-High,
because He is good to the ungrateful and evil ones.

sons of the Most-High = imitators of God, i.e. godly

a)  Romans 8:19 (KJV) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
b)  Galatians 3:26 (DLNT) For you all are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus!

sons of God = godly

Romans 9:26 (DLNT) "And it shall be in the place where it was said to them 'you are not My people', there they will be called sons of the living God" [Hos 1:10].

sons of the living God = godly

a)  1 Thessalonians 5:5 (DLNT) For you all are sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night, nor of darkness.
b)  John 12:36 (DLNT) While you have the Light, be believing in the Light, in order that you may become sons of Light". Jesus spoke these things, and having gone away, was hidden from them.

sons of light = sons of light/Light/God i.e. godly

==============================
Romans 1:4 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1:4&version=DLNT
the _One_ having been designated _as the_ Son _of_ God with power according to _the_ Spirit _of_ holiness by _the_ resurrection _from the_ dead, Jesus Christ our Lord-

Spirit of Holiness = Holy Spirit

==============================
Psalm 89:22 (KJV)
The enemy shall not exact upon him;
nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

the son of wickedness = the wicked

Semiticism:  intensifying repetition:  Rev 17:6, Rev 5:11, Mark 4:41, Luke 22:15

Genesis 2:17 (Young's Literal Translation) 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A17&version=YLT
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Rev 17:6
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2017%3A6&version=YLT;DLNT
(DLNT)  And I saw the woman being-drunk from the blood _of_ the saints, and[a]from the blood _of_ the witnesses _of_ Jesus. 
And having seen her, I wondered _with_ great wonder.
(YLT)  And I saw the woman drunken from the blood of the saints, and from the blood of the witnesses of Jesus,
and I did wonder -- having seen her -- with great wonder;

Rev 5:11 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+5%3A11&version=YLT;KJV;DLNT
And I saw, and I heard _the_ voice _of_ many angels around the throne, and _of_ the living-creatures, and _of_ the elders- and the number _of_ them was myriads _of_ myriads, and thousands _of_ thousands-

Mark 4:41
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+4%3A41&version=YLT;DLNT
(YLT) and they feared a great fear, and said one to another, `Who, then, is this, that even the wind and the sea do obey him?'
(DLNT) And they feared a great fear[a]. And they were saying to one another, "Who then is this _One_, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?"
Footnote:
That is, they were extremely afraid.

Luke 22:15 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+22%3A15&version=YLT
and he said unto them, `With desire I did desire to eat this passover with you before my suffering,

Re: Hosea 1:6
http://textexcavation.com/infinitiveabsolute.html
My second example is Hosea 1.6 (Masoretic, LXX, Vulgate): 
.... נשא אשא.... αντιτασσομενος αντιταξομαι.... oblivione obliviscar....
And she conceived again and bore a daughter, and [God] said to her: Call her name No Mercy ["a more complete translation might be She Who Has Not Been Shown Mercy"], because I shall no longer assent to be merciful to the house of Israel, but rather opposing I shall oppose them.
....  Both the Greek αντιτασσομενος αντιταξομαι (opposing I shall oppose) and the Latin oblivione obliviscar (by forgetfulness I shall forget) retain a rigid literalness that betrays a Hebrew original.

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Verb and cognate noun expressing emphasis. The Hebrew verb form known as the infinitive absolute is sometimes closely associated with another form of the same verb to express emphasis. A[n] Old Testament example is Genesis 2:17, "you will surely die" (literally "dying you will die"). A good New Testament example of this idiom is found in Luke 22:15, where the expression epithymia epethymesa (literally "with desire I have desired") means "I have earnestly desired." Mark 4:41 is a similar example: ephobethesan phobon megan "they feared greatly" (literally "they feared a great fear"). Though this idiom is paralleled in classical Greek, in the New Testament it seems to be derived from the Septuagint, especially in Luke and Acts.

The intensifying infinitive absolute in Hebrew.
A telltale sign of Hebrew origin or influence.
http://textexcavation.com/infinitiveabsolute.html
Rather many ancient texts composed originally in Hebrew are now extant only in Greek, Latin, or other language translation. The Hebrew originals have been utterly lost. But, if the only surviving texts are in Greek or Latin, or in some other tongue, how do scholars know that there was ever a Hebrew version in the first place, let alone that the Hebrew was the original?

By looking for a few good linguistic clues in the translations. One of the best clues is the presence of Hebraisms in the other language. A Hebraism is an expression or idiom that makes good sense in Hebrew, but not in the language into which the Hebrew was translated. (Every language has these kinds of idioms. Greek has Graecisms, Latin has Latinisms, English has Anglicisms, and so on.)

One of the most common Hebraisms of this kind is the intensifying infinitive absolute. An infinitive is the unconjugated or uninflected form of a verb. In English the preposition to usually precedes the infinitive, as in to read or to write. The infinitive in Hebrew takes two different forms, the construct and the absolute. But we are concerned only with the absolute form here. One of its most common purposes is to intensify the cognate finite verb in the same sentence. In other words, a Hebrew sentence might have the same verb twice in a row, once in the infinitive absolute form, and again in a conjugated or inflected form.

The result is an expression that, if translated literally into English, might look like to think he thought, or to speak he spoke. These phrases make little sense in English. Only slightly improving their intelligibility, some literal translations will use participles instead of infinitives, as in thinking he thought, or speaking he spoke. That is better, perhaps, but still odd in English, and probably missing the point of the Hebrew idiom, which is to intensify the main verb. So most translations obscure the Hebrew idiom altogether, and translate something like he thought carefully, or surely he spoke. The subject of the verb is not only doing the verb, he or she is doing it intensely in some manner.

The nice thing for scholars is that this particular Hebraism makes as little good sense translated literally into Greek or Latin as it does translated literally into English. And quite often the Greek and Latin translations of ancient Hebrew texts were almost painfully literal.

One has to be careful. Sometimes a Hebraism might show up in an originally Greek or Latin text just because the writer was a native speaker of Hebrew, and is thinking Hebraically. So the scholar will usually look for more than one or two Hebraisms here or there to come to a judgment on the original language of the text at hand. If the whole of an originally Hebrew text has been translated literally, however, the scholar will not have far to look. The translation will be teeming with Hebraisms.

Below are two examples from the Hebrew scriptures. There is no doubt, of course, that our Old Testament was composed originally in Hebrew. We still have the Hebrew texts, and are historically aware of the stories behind some of the more popular ancient translations of those texts. What will be of interest is how two of these translations, the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate, handle the Hebraic infinitive absolute.
My first example....
Even if the ancient Hebrew scriptures had survived only in Greek and Latin, an accumulation of obvious Hebraisms such as these would have served as undeniable proof of an original Hebrew composition.

Semiticism:  introductory "it came to pass"

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Introductory "It came to pass." The peculiar use of the Greek verb egeneto with another verb often reproduces a closely corresponding Semitic idiom meaning "it was so" or "it came to pass."  This Semitism appears far more frequently in Luke's writings than elsewhere (Mark has only four examples of it).  An example is Luke 2:6, "And it came to pass (egeneto de) that while they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth."  Recognizing the unnaturalness of the expression, most modern translations begin simply, "While they were there" (see GNB, NIV, JB, NEB, RSV). For other examples of this idiom, see Luke 2:1, 2:6, 2:15, 3:21, 5:1, 5:12, 5:17, 6:1, 6:6, 6:12, 7:11, 8:1, 8:22, 9:18, 9:28,9:37, 9:51, 11:1, 11:27, 14:1, 17:11, 18:35, 20:1, 22:24, 24:4.

search of KJV for: "it came to pass"
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22it+came+to+pass%22&qs_version=KJV&limit=500
    All (452)
    Old Testament (387)  ....
    New Testament (65)
    Matthew (6)
    Mark (4)
    Luke (40)
    Acts (14)
    1 Thessalonians (1)

Semiticism:  redundant 'saying' and redundant 'said'

Does anyone here think the 4 Gospels were originally composed in Greek?

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Redundant use of the verb _apokrinomai_. The expression "he answered and said" (_apokritheis eipen_) closely resembles a common Hebrew idiom. The use of the verb _apokrinomai_ "I answer" in this sense is often purely redundant (see Matthew 11:25, 12:38, 17:4, 28:5, Mark 9:5, 11:14, 12:35).  In cases in which no question has been asked, it may be misleading to translate the expression "he answered" (Compare Matthew 11:25 in KJV "Jesus answered and said" with NIV "Jesus said").

Here's a nice example, where Jesus "answered and said" to a fig tree that didn't ask him a question:
Mark 11:14  And Jesus answered and said unto it,
No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.
And his disciples heard it.

This is unusual in having a "wrote, saying":
Luke 1:63  And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying,
His name is John.
And they marvelled all.

This verse happened to have 2 redundancies:
Luke 23:3  And Pilate asked him, saying,
Art thou the King of the Jews?
And he answered him and said,
Thou sayest it.

=========================================.
some KJV search results for:  answer said
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=answer+said&qs_version=KJV&limit=500

214 OT search results.  157 NT search results, with the ones having the redundancy being:

Mt 3:15  And Jesus answering said unto him....
Mt 4:4  But he answered and said....
Mt 8:8  The centurion answered and said....
Mt 11:4  Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mt 11:25  At that time Jesus answered and said....
Mt 12:39  But he answered and said unto them....
Mt 12:48  But he answered and said unto him....
Mt 13:11  He answered and said unto them....
Mt 13:37  He answered and said unto them....
Mt 14:28  And Peter answered him and said....
Mt 15:3  But he answered and said unto them....
Mt 15:13  But he answered and said....
Mt 15:15  Then answered Peter and said unto him....
Mt 15:24  But he answered and said....
Mt 15:26  But he answered and said....
Mt 15:28  Then Jesus answered and said unto her....
Mt 16:2  He answered and said unto them....
Mt 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said....
Mt 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him....
Mt 17:4  Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus....
Mt 17:11  And Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mt 17:17  Then Jesus answered and said....
Mt 19:4  And he answered and said unto them....
Mt 19:27  Then answered Peter and said unto him....
Mt 20:13  But he answered one of them, and said....
Mt 20:22  But Jesus answered and said....
Mt 21:21  Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mt 21:24  And Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mt 21:27  And they answered Jesus, and said....
Mt 21:29  He answered and said....
Mt 21:30  ....And he answered and said....
Mt 22:1  And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said....
Mt 22:29  Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mt 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mt 25:12  But he answered and said....
Mt 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him....
Mt 26:23  And he answered and said....
Mt 26:25  Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said....
Mt 26:33  Peter answered and said unto him....
Mt 26:63  ....And the high priest answered and said unto him....
Mt 26:66  ....They answered and said....
Mt 27:21  The governor answered and said unto them....
Mt 27:25  Then answered all the people, and said....
Mt 28:5  And the angel answered and said unto the women....

Mark 6:37  He answered and said unto them....
Mark 7:6  He answered and said unto them....
Mark 7:28  And she answered and said unto him....
Mark 9:5  And Peter answered and said to Jesus....
Mark 9:17  And one of the multitude answered and said....
Mark 10:3  And he answered and said unto them....
Mark 10:5  And Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mark 10:20  And he answered and said unto him....
Mark 10:29  And Jesus answered and said....
Mark 10:51  And Jesus answered and said unto him....
Mark 11:14  And Jesus answered and said unto it....
Mark 11:29  And Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mark 11:33  And they answered and said unto Jesus....
Mark 12:17  And Jesus answering said unto them....
Mark 12:24  And Jesus answering said unto them....
Mark 12:35  And Jesus answered and said....
Mark 13:2  And Jesus answering said unto him....
Mark 14:20  And he answered and said unto them....
Mark 14:48  And Jesus answered and said unto them....
Mark 14:61  ....Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him....
Mark 15:2  ....And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.
Mark 15:12  And Pilate answered and said again unto them....

Luke 1:19  And the angel answering said unto him....
Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her....
Luke 1:60  And his mother answered and said....
Luke 4:8  And Jesus answered and said unto him....
Luke 4:12  And Jesus answering said unto him....
Luke 5:5  And Simon answering said unto him....
Luke 5:22  ....he answering said unto them....
Luke 5:31  And Jesus answering said unto them....
Luke 6:3  And Jesus answering them said....
Luke 7:22  Then Jesus answering said unto them....
Luke 7:40  And Jesus answering said unto him....
Luke 7:43  Simon answered and said....
Luke 8:21  And he answered and said unto them....
Luke 9:19  They answering said....
Luke 9:20  ....Peter answering said....
Luke 9:41  And Jesus answering said....
Luke 9:49  And John answered and said....
Luke 10:27  And he answering said....
Luke 10:30  And Jesus answering said....
Luke 10:41  And Jesus answered and said unto her....
Luke 11:45  Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him....
Luke 13:2  And Jesus answering said unto them....
Luke 13:8  And he answering said unto him....
Luke 13:14  And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people....
Luke 13:15  The Lord then answered him, and said....
Luke 15:29  And he answering said to his father....
Luke 17:17  And Jesus answering said....
Luke 17:20  ....he answered them and said....
Luke 17:37  And they answered and said unto him....
Luke 19:40  And he answered and said unto them....
Luke 20:3  And he answered and said unto them....
Luke 20:24  ....They answered and said, Caesar's.
Luke 20:34  And Jesus answering said unto them....
Luke 20:39  Then certain of the scribes answering said....
Luke 22:51  And Jesus answered and said....
Luke 23:3  And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.
Luke 24:18  And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him....

John 1:48  .... Jesus answered and said unto him....
John 1:50  Jesus answered and said unto him....
John 2:18  Then answered the Jews and said unto him....
John 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them....
John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him....
John 3:9  Nicodemus answered and said unto him....
John 3:10  Jesus answered and said unto him....
John 3:27  John answered and said....
John 4:10  Jesus answered and said unto her....
John 4:13  Jesus answered and said unto her....
John 4:17  The woman answered and said....
John 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them....
John 6:26  Jesus answered them and said....
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them....
John 6:43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them....
John 7:16  Jesus answered them, and said....
John 7:20  The people answered and said....
John 7:21  Jesus answered and said unto them....
John 7:52  They answered and said unto him....
John 8:14  Jesus answered and said unto them....
John 8:39  They answered and said unto him....
John 8:48  Then answered the Jews, and said unto him....
John 9:11  He answered and said....
John 9:20  His parents answered them and said....
John 9:25  He answered and said....
John 9:30  The man answered and said unto them....
John 9:34  They answered and said unto him....
John 9:36  He answered and said....
John 12:30  Jesus answered and said....
John 13:7  Jesus answered and said unto him....
John 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him....
John 18:30  They answered and said unto him....
John 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him....

Acts 4:19  But Peter and John answered and said unto them....
Acts 5:29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said....
Acts 8:24  Then answered Simon, and said....
Acts 8:34  And the eunuch answered Philip, and said....
Acts 19:15  And the evil spirit answered and said....
Acts 25:9  ....answered Paul, and said....

=========================================.
some KJV search results for:  ask said
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=ask+said&qs_version=KJV&limit=500

36 OT search results.  25 NT search results, with the ones having the redundancy being:

Mt 27:11  ....the governor asked him, saying....
Mark 14:61  ....the high priest asked him, and said unto him....
Luke 8:30  And Jesus asked him, saying....
Luke 23:3  And Pilate asked him, saying....
John 1:25  And they asked him, and said unto him....

=========================================.
some KJV search results for:  ask saying
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=ask+saying&limit=500

20 OT search results.  27 NT search results, with the ones having the redundancy being:

Mt 12:10  .... And they asked him, saying....
Mt 16:13  ....he asked his disciples, saying....
Mt 17:10  And his disciples asked him, saying....
Mt 22:35  Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mt 27:11  ....and the governor asked him, saying....

Mark 5:9  .... And he answered, saying....
Mark 6:25  And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying....
Mark 8:27  ....he asked his disciples, saying unto them....
Mark 9:11  And they asked him, saying....
Mark 12:18  ....they asked him, saying....
Mark 14:60  ....and asked Jesus, saying....
Mark 15:4  And Pilate asked him again, saying....

Luke 1:63  And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all.
Luke 3:10  And the people asked him, saying....
Luke 8:9  And his disciples asked him, saying....
Luke 8:30  And Jesus asked him, saying....
Luke 9:18  ....he asked them, saying....
Luke 18:18  And a certain ruler asked him, saying....
Luke 20:21  And they asked him, saying....
Luke 21:7  And they asked him, saying....
Luke 22:64  ....and asked him, saying....
Luke 23:3  And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.

John 9:2  And his disciples asked him, saying....
John 9:19  And they asked them, saying....

Acts 1:6  ....they asked of him, saying....

Quote from: CST on September 29, 2018, 02:01:47 PM
OK, try this rather challenging (particularly if taken entirely literally) passage:

'Now when the Pharisees gathered together to him, with some of the scribes, who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands defiled, that is, unwashed. And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?"'

'And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men."'

'And he called the people to him again, and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)' (Mark 7:1,2, 6-8, 14,15, 17-19)

Apart from the fact the explanation of the parable doesn't sound that different from the parable. Jesus is upbraiding the Pharisees on particular aspects of their behaviour, like putting certain, rather unqualified rules over proper moral conduct. Given that it seem a bit strained that Mark puts in a footnote saying that Jesus declared all foods clean when the topic of the discussion was how to eat not what to eat, but it made the Bible so it must be true.

But there's a catch, I knew if I touch something filthy and then immediately go off and eat with my hands, there's a good chance I'll get sick. So on balance what Jesus says is actually wrong and what the Pharisees advocate is actually correct, lucky, lucky Pharisees because they're not actually advocating it for its health benefit but to control people which is why Jesus attacks it. Jesus is wrong but only because I know something that is beyond the scope of the discussion that was going on at the time. Obviously, Jesus isn't actually wrong and His criticism of the Pharisees is of course correct even though we now know His facts aren't.

I have this trouble with the Bible sometimes, when struggle to even agree with Jesus and have to remember not to take what He said beyond what He actually meant, which might be less than the absolutely literal meaning, literal and allegorical are not the only two choices we have and you have to take a lot more care than that.

I figure it's taken for granted if i touch something unclean or disgusting, i know enough to wash my j
hands afterwards, let alone before eating with those hands. but is it natural for folks to always wash their hands before eating something? Only if obsessive compulsive. Which overdoing can actually decrease ones immunity. Most folks do likely wash their hands before preparing food for others, as just good manners. And after work, especially before eating.. But do we need a law handed out from other humans concerning it? Or it to be some sort of strange ritual - metaphor, wash your hands ye sinners! Ritual of self glorying..? (Says see I wash my hands all the time, and you don't! No matter that I rob widow's and orphans or anything!)

So again, imo, Jesus is right. Did the Old Testament have hand washing in its list of things? I think yes, for the priests before entering the Tabernacle or temple.. Which washing, I have to think in this instance does not have to do with eating with unwashed hands.. anyway. But as you said a rule to hold over others..

Semiticism:  'well/good' actually meaning 'better'

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
The use of the positive adjective for the comparative or superlative. The Semitic languages, with the exception of Arabic, have no special forms for the comparative and superlative adjectives (such as "bigger," "biggest"). Instead, the positive adjective is used, "big." Although the comparative is often used for the superlative in the koine, there does not appear to be any parallel in Greek to the Semitic use of the positive for the comparative or superlative. A good example of the idiom occurs in Mark 9:43: "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better (Greek kalon, literally "good") for you to enter life crippled than having your two hands to go to hell." Note also the following examples: Mark 12:28, "the most important" (literally, "the first"); Luke 5:39, "better" (literally, "good"); and John 2:10, "You have kept the best (literally 'good') wine until now."

Mark 9:43 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+9%3A43&version=KJV
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better [Greek: kalos:  good, well] for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 12:28 King James Version (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A28&version=YLT;DLNT;KJV;NIV
https://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-28.htm
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first [Greek:  prote] [i.e., the most important] commandment of all?

Luke 5:39 (DLNT)
And no one having drunk old wine desires new. For he says, 'The old is good'" [i.e., better].

John 2:10 (KJV)
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good [i.e., better] wine until now.

Romans 11:19-20 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2011%3A19-20&version=KJV
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/11-20.htm
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.  Well [Greek:  kalos] [i.e., better, as in better for you]; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.  Be not highminded, but fear:

1 Cor 7:30-40 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A30-42&version=KJV
https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/7-37.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/7-38.htm
36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well [Greek: kalos] [i.e., does better].
38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well [Greek: kalos]; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better [Greek:  kreisson].

James 2:3 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A3&version=YLT;DLNT;KJV;NIV
https://biblehub.com/text/james/2-3.htm
If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good [Greek: kalos] [i.e., better] seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," [i.e., take a worse seat]

Compare:

Luke 14 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
7. And he was speaking a mathla [parable] to them who were invited there, because he was seeing those who were choosing places among the front seats.
8. "When you are invited by a man to a banquet-house,
do not go seat yourself in the front seat,
lest a man more honorable than you should be invited there.
9. And he who called both of you will come, and will say to you,
Give place to this (man).'
And you will be ashamed as you get up and you take a lesser place.
10. Rather, when you are invited
go seat yourself in the back,
that when he that called you comes, he will say to you,
'My friend, move yourself up and seat yourself higher,'
and you will have tishbokhtha [glory/ praise] in front of all who sit with you.
11. For anyone who exalts himself will be humbled,
and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted."
Proverbs 25 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+25&version=NKJV
6 Do not exalt yourself in the presence of the king,
And do not stand in the place of the great;
7 For it is better that he say to you,
"Come up here,"
Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince,
Whom your eyes have seen.

Semiticism:  2-mouthed sword:  Hebr 4:12, Rev 1:16, 2:12; mouth of the sword:  Hebr 11:34

Hebrews 11:34 (YLT) quenched the power of fire, escaped the mouth of the sword, were made powerful out of infirmities, became strong in battle, caused to give way camps of the aliens.

Judges 3:16 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges+3%3A16&version=YLT
and Ehud maketh for himself a sword, and it hath two mouths (a cubit [is] its length), and he girdeth it under his long robe on his right thigh;

Proverbs 5:4 (YLT)
And her latter end [is] bitter as wormwood,
Sharp as a sword [with] mouths.

Hebrews 4:12, Rev 1:16, and Rev 2:12 also have "two-mouthed":  see below, and the passages' PDFs at
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

Strong's Concordance 1366. distomos
https://biblehub.com/greek/1366.htm
distomos: double-mouthed, two-edged
Original Word: δίστομος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: distomos
Phonetic Spelling: (dis'-tom-os)
Definition: double-mouthed, two-edged
Usage: (lit: twain-mouthed; hence: of a sword, as a drinker of blood), two-edged.
HELPS Word-studies
1366 dístomos – properly, two-mouthed (having two edges), like a "two-edged" sword with both sides of the blade sharpened to an edge; (figuratively) what penetrates at every point of contact, coming in or going out.
[A two-edged sword is an ideal defensive-offensive weapon and was known as "a drinker of blood" (Souter).]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from dis and stoma
Definition
double-mouthed, two-edged
NASB Translation
two-edged (3).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1366: δίστομος

δίστομος, δίστομον (δίς and στόμα), having a double mouth, as a river, Polybius 34, 10, 5; (ὁδοί i. e. branching, Sophocles O. C. 900). As στόμα is used of the edge of a sword and of other weapons, so δίστομος has the meaning two-edged: used of a sword in Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 1:16; Revelation 2:12, and according to Schott in ; also Judges 3:16; Proverbs 5:4; Psalm 149:6: Sir. 21:3; ξίφος, Euripides, Hel. 983.
[ ξίφος means sword:
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/greek-word-4ebdc09be94ec38a8d58b5aab5cb22135dbbff1b.html

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
with two edges, two-edged.
From dis and stoma; double-edged -- with two edges, two-edged.
see GREEK dis
see GREEK stoma  ....

Hebrews 4:12 Adj-AFS
GRK: πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον καὶ διικνούμενος ....
Revelation 1:16 Adj-NMS
GRK: αὐτοῦ ῥομφαία δίστομος ὀξεῖα ἐκπορευομένη....
Revelation 2:12 Adj-AFS
GRK: ῥομφαίαν τὴν δίστομον τὴν ὀξεῖαν....

Strong's Number: 4750   
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/stoma.html
Original Word   Word Origin
stoma   probably strengthened from a presumed derivative of the base of (5114)  ....
Definition
the mouth, as part of the body: of man, of animals, of fish, etc.
since thoughts of a man's soul find verbal utterance by his mouth, the "heart" or "soul" and the mouth are distinguished
the edge of a sword
NAS Word Usage - Total: 77
edge 2, face 4, lips 1, mouth 60, mouths 5, say* 1, testimony 1, utterance 1, voice 1, words 1

Semiticism:  open + mouth = speak:  Eph 6:19, Rev 13:6

search of YLT for:  open mouth
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=open+mouth&qs_version=YLT&limit=500

Ephesians 6:19 and in behalf of me, that to me may be given a word in the opening of my mouth, in freedom, to make known the secret of the good news,

Revelation 13:6 and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,

Semiticism:  frequent casus pendens; in Rev 2:26, 3:12, 3:21

Does anyone here believe that John was originally composed in Greek?

David Alan Black, "New Testament Semitisms" (_The Bible Translator_ 39/2 [April 1988], pp. 215-223), cited by Michael Marlowe at
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html
Casus pendens.  Although casus pendens (a common technical term in grammar taken from the Latin for "a hanging case") is used with effect in classical Greek, the construction is much more frequent in Hebrew and Aramaic than in the koine.  A typical example is Matthew 6:4, kai ho pater sou ho blepon en to krypto autos adoposei soi.  This would be expressed idiomatically in Hebrew as "And your Father who sees in secret, he will repay you."  This is an unusually complicated way of saying "And your Father who sees in secret will repay you" (see GNB, NIV, NEB).  While such constructions cannot be described as uniquely Semitic, their preponderance in the sayings of Jesus supports the view that a translation Greek tradition is to be found there.

Revelation 2:26 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+2%3A26&version=DLNT;YLT
And the one overcoming
and the one keeping My works until the end—
I will give him authority over the nations.

Revelation 3:12 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+3%3A12&version=DLNT;YLT
The one overcoming—
I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,
and he will never go outside again.

Revelation 3:21 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%203%3A21&version=DLNT;YLT
He who is overcoming --
I will give to him to sit with me in my throne,
as I also did overcome
and did sit down with my Father in His throne.

Genesis 3:12 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen+3%3A12&version=YLT
and the man saith,
`The woman whom Thou didst place with me --
she hath given to me of the tree --
and I do eat.'

Genesis 15:4 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen+15%3A4&version=YLT
And lo, the word of Jehovah [is] unto him, saying,
`This [one] doth not heir thee;
but he who cometh out from thy bowels,
he doth heir thee;'

Daniel 3:22 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan+3%3A22&version=YLT
Therefore, because that the word of the king is urgent,
and the furnace heated exceedingly,
those men who have taken up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego --
killed them hath the spark of the fire.

James 1:26 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james+1%3A26&version=DLNT;YLT
If any one doth think to be religious among you,
not bridling his tongue,
but deceiving his heart,
of this one vain [is] the religion;

1 Cor 2:15 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+2%3A15&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things,
yet he himself is judged of no man.

Acts 17:23 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017%3A23&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
For as I passed by,
and beheld your devotions,
I found an altar with this inscription,
To The Unknown God.
Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship,
him declare I unto you.

1 John 2:27 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+john+2%3A27&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
and you,
the anointing that ye did receive from him,
in you it doth remain,
and ye have no need that any one may teach you,
but as the same anointing doth teach you concerning all,
and is true,
and is not a lie,
and even as was taught you,
ye shall remain in him.

Matthew 6:4 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+6%3A4&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
That thine alms may be in secret:
and thy Father which seeth in secret
himself shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 7:13 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+7%3A13&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
`Go ye in through the strait gate,
because wide [is] the gate,
and broad the way
that is leading to the destruction,
and many are those going in through it;

Matthew 15:19-20 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+15%3A19-20&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
for out of the heart come forth
evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms,
thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings:
these are the things defiling the man;
but to eat with unwashen hands
doth not defile the man.'

Matthew 26:23 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A23+&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
And he answering said,
`He who did dip with me the hand in the dish,
he will deliver me up;

C.F. Burney, _The Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel_ (1922), 176pp.  On 6-7, from
https://archive.org/stream/aramaicoriginoff00burnrich/aramaicoriginoff00burnrich_djvu.txt
So with other stylistic peculiarities of the Gospel, such as the
frequent use of _Casus pendens_. This, Prof. Moulton tells us, 'is
one of the easiest of anacolutha, as much at home in English
as in Greek ' (_NTG_.^3, i, p. 69). We recognize the truth of this
statement as regards colloquial English, especially among the
semi-educated. We might be talking to a groom, and it would
be natural for him to say, 'The gentleman who used to ride that
horse — he lost his arm in the war.' Probably at times we use
the same kind of anacoluthon ourselves in ordinary conversation ;
but we do not use it in writing a book or article which we hope
may be worthy to rank as literature. Nor, if we take the whole
New Testament as a fair specimen of literature written in the ... [koine],
do we find as a rule more than very occasional instances of the
usage. In the Fourth Gospel, however, it is remarkably frequent;
and it is reasonable to seek some better reason than the
supposition that the writer of the finest piece of literature in the New
Testament was more than ordinarily infected with colloquialism.
Now there _is_ a literature in which both the usages which we
have been noticing— parataxis and _Casus pendens_— are not the
marks of lack of education but common phenomena of the best
writing style, namely, the literature of Semitic-speaking peoples.
If, then, these two characteristics of the style of the Fourth Gospel,
only selected by way of example, fit in with numerous other
characteristics which point to translation from a Semitic language,
their evidence as part of our proof that the Gospel is such a
translation is not in the slightest degree invalidated by the fact
that parallels can be adduced from the non-literary and ephemeral
type of document which we find represented in the papyri.

On 63-65:
Casus pendens.
It is characteristic of Hebrew and Aramaic to simplify the
construction of a sentence, and at the same time to gain emphasis,
by reinforcing the subject by a Personal Pronoun. Such reinforcement
is specially favoured if the subject happens to be further
defined by a relative clause, since otherwise the sentence would—
to the Semitic ear— appear involved and overweighted. The same
principle is also adopted with the object, when this, for the sake of
emphasis, is brought to the beginning of the sentence ; and other
oblique cases may be similarly treated. Examples in Hebrew are —
Gen. 3^12, 'The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave
me (...) of the tree and I did eat'; Gen. 15^4, 'But one
that shall come out of thine own bowels, he shall be thine heir'
(...) ; Gen. 24^7, 'Yahweh, the God of heaven, who took me
from my father's house, &c., He shall send (...) His angel
before thee' ; Deut. 13^1, 'All the word that I command you, it shall
ye observe to do' (...); Ezek. 18^24, 'In his trespass that
he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them
shall he die' (...). See further, Driver, _Tenses_, § 123 ... _Obs_.

Similarly in Aramaic— Dan. 2^27,28, 'Thou, O king, the king of kings,
to whom the God of heaven gave, &c., thou art that head of gold'
(...); Dan. 3^22 'Those men that took up
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, the flame of the fire slew
them' (...); Dan. 4^17-19, 'The tree that thou
sawest, &c., it is thou, O king' (...); Ezr. 5^17, 'And
moreover, the vessels of the house of God, &c., them did Cyrus
the king take out (...) of the temple of Babylon';
Ezr. 7^24, 'All priests and Levites, &c., it shall not be lawful to
impose tribute, &c., upon them' (...); Ezra 7^26, 'Every one
that will not perform the law of thy God and the law of the king,
let judgement diligently be executed upon him' (...).

This reinforcement of a _Casus pendens_ by the Pronoun is a
marked characteristic of the Fourth Gospel. We may note the
following illustrations:
1^12....
1^18....
1^33....
3^26....
3^32.... 
5^11....
5^19....
5^36....
5^37....
5^38....
6^39....
6^46....
7^18....
8^26....
10^1....
10^25....
12^48....
12^49....
14^12....
14^13....
14^21....
14^26....
15^2....
15^5....
17^2....
17^24....
18^11....

Against these 27 instances in Jn. we can only set 11 in
Mt. (4^16, 13^20,22,23,38, 15^11, 19^28, 21^42, 24^13, 25^29, 26^23),
4 in Mk. (6^16, 7^20, 12^10, 13^11), and 6 in Lk. (8^14,15, 12^48, 20^17, 21^6, 23^50-52); and of these Mt. 4^16 and Mt. 21^42 = Mk. 12^10 = Lk. 20^17 are O.T. quotations.

Of course it cannot be claimed that the use of Casus pendens
is specifically a Semitism, since— to go no farther— it is a familiar
colloquialism in English. Prof Moulton remarks that 'it is one
of the easiest of anacolutha, as much at home in English as in
Greek' (_NTG._^3, i, p. 69). The fact which concerns us is the
remarkable frequency of its occurrence in Jn. as compared with
the Synoptists. If Lk., for example, is a fair specimen of ... [koine]
Greek, why should we find that a construction which occurs there
but 6 times is employed in Jn. with six times the frequency? An
adequate answer is forthcoming in the assumption that a common
Aramaic construction has been exactly reproduced in translation.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 08, 2018, 06:13:51 AM
Semiticism:  frequent casus pendens; in Rev 2:26, 3:12, 3:21

Does anyone here believe that John was originally composed in Greek?

Your post makes sense.. I wonder how, specifically, any verses being originally penned in the Hebraic Aramaic, confirms - more openly - the UR/CU gospel of God? An example - speaking of the gospel account of John -
    verse John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.. signifying by what death He was about to die.

..Of course, any of our friends, who do not yet believe, if we give them a bible to read, we want one which is clear and simple to be read by them.. (That's why when I cross paths with a KJ only person, I mean not even NKJ is considered ok by them.. I always think, dude, you may be shutting the book for so many new readers! Crazy...!

Ahh, the Glory of the message! ..Can ring out so loud and clear, in any language at all.. if the speaker of the message knows the message, that is!!  :friendstu:
(I guess that's the job / service we are assigned? make disciples/spread the news of the true glad tidings..) :banana:

Quote from: marie glen on October 08, 2018, 06:48:01 PM
I wonder how, specifically, any verses being originally penned in the Hebraic Aramaic, confirms - more openly - the UR/CU gospel of God?

I dunno-- yet.  What are some verses advanced by never-ending-torture proponents in support of their position?  What are some verses advanced by annihilationists in support of their position?

Amen! Those always fall apart...  :thumbsup:

:Chinscratch: I'll be keeping my eyes open for verses..

Quote from: DavidFord on October 09, 2018, 12:42:21 AM

Quote from: marie glen on October 08, 2018, 06:48:01 PM
I wonder how, specifically, any verses being originally penned in the Hebraic Aramaic, confirms - more openly - the UR/CU gospel of God?

I dunno-- yet.  What are some verses advanced by never-ending-torture proponents in support of their position?  What are some verses advanced by annihilationists in support of their position?

For the first one, bad translations basically. For the second one, bad translations, and also not putting and using all of the verses. They usually only look at certain verses, and any other verse, in their mind, somehow "contradicts" it. Then attempt to explain it away, in the fashion of what doctrines they cling to.

Basically, both camps try to limit God in what He is able, and has said for Himself to do.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 09, 2018, 03:24:47 AMFor the first one, bad translations basically. For the second one, bad translations, and also not putting and using all of the verses. They usually only look at certain verses, and any other verse, in their mind, somehow "contradicts" it. Then attempt to explain it away, in the fashion of what doctrines they cling to.
Basically, both camps try to limit God in what He is able, and has said for Himself to do.

What are 1 or 2 "bad translations" utilized by:
never-ending-torture proponents? 
annihilationists?

I would say mainly KJV, especially with the KJV only people. Though the word hell is becoming less and less ib modern translations, they still put the word eternal in there. A couple easier to read translations like the NIV, ESV, NASB, etc. And, don't forget the paraphrased versions like the Message. That is probably one of the worst versions of Scripture I have ever read. Take a look at this hilarious rendition.

Proverbs 15 MSG
14An intelligent person is always eager to take in more truth;
fools feed on fast-food fads and fancies.

Psalm 14
4Don't they know anything,
all these impostors?
Don't they know
they can't get away with this—
Treating people like a fast-food meal
over which they're too busy to pray?

Not sure about this, but I heard a person who did one paraphrased version of the Bible started getting demonic attacks after completing it.