those in Sheol getting what they dished out to others?

[DavidFord]

What if they where everywhere? We see through the glass darkly. But wherever they are, God is much more powerful than they. NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God, it isn't even a contest.

Coming early next year:
_Profound Good:  See God Through the Lens of His Love_
https://www.amazon.com/Profound-Good-Through-Lens-Love/dp/1629995657/
What you see of God is only part of the story.
From the time Blake Healy was a small child, he has seen angels, demons, and other spiritual things.  He sees them with his naked eyes, as vividly and clearly as anything else.   ....
After thirty years of seeing in the spirit, one thing has consistently been the most painful for him to see.  It is not when he sees someone trapped in demonic oppression.  It is not when he sees the gaping wounds of emotional trauma.  It is when he sees the goodness of God go unclaimed by His people. In this book Healy takes readers on a journey of rediscovering the goodness of God.

[MusicLover123]

Speaking of goodness, I learned recently that His goodness and Glory are basically the same thing. For example, when Moses asked to see God's Glory, he got the goodness. But, it was the same thing. Same thing when God called everything good and very good.

Just asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?

[DavidFord]

Just asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?

Healy just looks around.  Praying Medic closes his eyes and looks.  The spirit man's eyesight usually has to be developed/ trained to see the typically-not-visible.  The guy shortly into the youtube video below merely looked around after getting a full-blown gift of seeing in the spirit.

Blake Healy, _The Veil:  An Invitation to the Unseen Realm_ (2018)
https://www.amazon.com/Veil-Invitation-Unseen-Realm/dp/1629994901/

Praying Medic, _Seeing in the Spirit Made Simple_ (2015)
https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Spirit-Made-Simple-Kingdom-ebook/dp/B00VJI0DJK/

If we could see into the Spiritual World, what would we see? - Heavens Catalyst
https://youtu.be/mBt0iynPe0o

[DavidFord]

Well, I am still unsure what I am seeing when I close my eyes. It started around March of this year, and basically these black thin things are flying around in locations that look familiar rarely, yet not so. Most times I don't even understand what it is.
It is really dark most of the time, with sometimes orange light there too. Still trying to discern of I am actually seeing spirits, and if it is from the devil or not.
Oh, and a couple times, all of a sudden this gate would appear. A black one, and some designs to it.
Even if it was a "gift" I don't even know what the purpose of it would be. In fact, when it started it caused more sleep problems, and being scared at first as I don't know what I am even seeing.
Does that sound what the other people you mentioned see?

I don't recall reading about things along the lines of what you describe.
I think it was Praying Medic who said that often people developing their spiritual sight will early on see eyes glowing in the dark, which he considers the kingdom of darkness's attempting to scare people away from improving their spiritual sight.
"I don't even know what the purpose of it would be"
For one thing, it'd be an additional way God could communicate to you, which would enhance your relationship with Him, and a tool for you to better help people:
Along the lines of a Praying Medic account:  'God, did I hear you right-- you _don't_ want to bring your healing to this person now?-- what's wrong with her?'  Close eyes, and see snakes, scorpions, coffins, mummies:  she has way too many spiritual problems to be remotely adequately addressed during the medical transport of her. 
Near the end of an Unbound session:  'God, what's something you want me to tell him?'  Close eyes, and see the guy hacking his way through a forest, leading others through.
Interpretation:  God sees you, sir, as a leader who is leading others to safety.
You could also see things that need to be addressed:  during a prayer session for someone that came forward for prayer:  close eyes, and see a dagger, spear, and fish hook in the person:  those items could then be taken out of him.
If you wish to develop your spiritual sight, Praying Medic's book on the topic is good.

[marie glen]

I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.

Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?

agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.

Absolutely :thumbsup: as with seeking 'experiences' and strange extra-biblical things.. myths.. disputings over the law.. etc, etc., but especially seeking miracles and experiences.. -- Jus give me God's Word! -- It's real good to know, however, that negative thoughts and ideas are untruths.. no matter where they come from. God's Word - knowing it, being aware of what it says, and knowing what is true (real) and what is not true.. (sealed on the forehead? a virgin mind/consciousness?) What we believe becomes part of us. And it all bears fruit..
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:

[MusicLover123]

I think MG, that God is still active today. The key thing is discernment. The Holy Spirit is to guide us in all truth, and that may be manifested in different ways. If someone where to have an experience, the thing to do is compare it to God's Word.

If someone does not feel comfortable seeking out experiences from God, then I would not try to force them to do otherwise. The main thing would be, how do you see God? If you think you are unworthy to feel His presence, to hear His voice, then why would you expect otherwise than what you think of Him? If someone thinks that He is not active with people today, then again, why expect otherwise? I think that sort of mentality limits someone from experiencing more of Him.

The hardest part is that there are many false spirits out there, and learning to discern from what is truth and what is not.

Even His Word is Spiritually discerned. If it is not read and compared in Spirit, then it is just ink on a page. I think too, that He may reveal the meaning of these things in different ways, where He leads you by His Spirit.

[lastpost]

Speaking of goodness, I learned recently that His goodness and Glory are basically the same thing. For example, when Moses asked to see God's Glory, he got the goodness. But, it was the same thing. Same thing when God called everything good and very good.

Just asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?

I believe that there are varying degrees to which people "see" and "hear" that which is non-physical.

Some people "see" from childhood, without any "training", such as the woman in this autobiography...

http://www.jhardaker.plus.com/pdf/The%20Ministry%20of%20Angels.pdf

I know one such person well. In my opinion, to see with the innocence provided by an early age before any religious conditioning has taken place, is an aid to avoiding too much doctrinal bias during later recall.


Extract from above book...

I

"The first of my many strange experiences, from which I long ago learned that at
times I see things which to most people are invisible, and hear sounds which to
them are inaudible, occurred when I was twelve years old. With a brother two years
older than myself, I was then living with an aunt in the north of Ireland. My father, a
captain in the British army, was stationed in India.

I awoke one night to find the room filled with light, as though flooded with sunlight,
and pervaded by a delicious odour such as emanates from the most exquisitely
fragrant flowers, but the fragrance was imbued with an exhilarating quality that is
not possessed by any perfume with which I am acquainted.

I heard a rushing sound, like that which might be made by the beating of many
wings, and suddenly there appeared, standing in the middle of the room, two forms.
One was that of a man, the other that of a woman. They were clad in shining white
robes. Around the head of each was a bright halo. The man stretched forth his hand
and said:

"Be not dismayed; blessed shalt thou be",

Then the woman spoke and said:

"Behold the Saviour! And I am His mother".

The face of the man was bearded and his hair was long, falling below the shoulders;
both beard and hair were of a reddish hue. The features closely resembled those of
the traditional portraits of the Saviour. But in most of them the predominant
expression is one of sadness, while the face which beheld expressed joy far beyond
that which I have ever seen depicted on any human face. And yet there was that
about it which proclaimed infinite compassion."

[jabcat]

Honest question without researching it;  is there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?

I do believe the imagination (and mental illnesses) can be powerful things, and things need to considered with much discernment and prayer, as well as not contradict or "unnecessarily" add to scriptural precedent/verification.   :2c:

[darryl]

i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.

Have you personally known anyone who sees demons?

Interview: Blake Healy, 17 April 2018
https://spiritdaily.org/blog/angels/interview-blake-healy
....Blake W. Healy, a fellow from Atlanta who, since childhood, as we have related before, has had the gift of seeing into the supernatural — angels and demons.  Blake believes, interestingly enough, that many have the same gift but lose it in part by neglecting it; it fades with age.  "I have been stunned by how many have come up to me and told me they grew up seeing in the spirit and shut it down," he explains.

#

'...know anyone who sees demons' ?....yes, I know of  a Muslim fellow who i come across fairly often who claims to see 'Jinns' ( Koranic devils ) ....as for me, well, such a thing kind of offends my innate sense of rationality....also, it does not seem Biblical.....i.e. did Paul see demons ?...Peter ?....John ?....hmmmm, they don't appear to say they did....if such mighty pillars of the Faith never claimed to have seen demons why would somebody else have that ability....sounds 'fishy' to me....this fellow Healy claimed he saw demons....how do we know he did ?...to what purpose did God allow him to see demons ?...anyway, I'm mainly interested in Universal Reconciliation not peripheral issues like this so I shall leave it there.

[darryl]

Honest question without researching it;  is there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?

I do believe the imagination (and mental illnesses) can be powerful things, and things need to considered with much discernment and prayer, as well as not contradict or "unnecessarily" add to scriptural precedent/verification.   :2c:

isn't this sidetracking us from discussing the all- important topic of Universal Reconciliation ?...seems like most threads these days aren't even about what this website is supposed to be focussing on, which is UR,  and risks causing pointless arguments about peripheral matters...sorry to have to say this but the threads getting away from Universal Reconciliation and into other totally non- related issues is a reason I don't come here as often as I used to.

[jabcat]

Yeah, I've been out of town for several days and just catching up.  Unless this is tied back into a UR -related point, it indeed could be a rabbit hole.  It's tough sometimes, and the "trigger" can be pulled too quickly on whether something is in any way related to UR, so room is given.  But again, yeah, it needs to go somewhere productive and able to be fairly readily traceable back to UR or we may be wandering too far off the rails of the site.  I'll try to sort this out a little more, given the time, but in the meantime, maybe the membership can take the initiative to move this in a useful direction..

[DavidFord]

isn't this sidetracking us from discussing the all- important topic of Universal Reconciliation ?

Some claim that Satan doesn't exist, and that demons don't exist.  If they don't exist, they can't be reconciled to God, and they can't be bothering people, neither on earth nor in Sheol/hades/hell, nor in Gehenna.

[DavidFord]

The hardest part is that there are many false spirits out there, and learning to discern from what is truth and what is not.
Even His Word is Spiritually discerned. If it is not read and compared in Spirit, then it is just ink on a page. I think too, that He may reveal the meaning of these things in different ways, where He leads you by His Spirit.

Working with the OT, the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees worked to crucify Jesus.

1 Thess 5:21 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205%3A21&version=DLNT
but be testing all things.
Be holding-on-to the good

[DavidFord]

is there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?

Satan is said to be a fallen angel.  In the Bible, people are reported to have seen angels, e.g. Gabriel.  Paul detected the presence of a demon in a future-predicting girl, and demons and Satan communicated to Jesus on several occasions.  The ill effects of demons' adverse influence on several people was observed during Jesus' ministry.  Peter's friends once thought that not Peter, but Peter's angel was standing outside the door.

[GodIsLove]

Honest question without researching it;  is there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?

I do believe the imagination (and mental illnesses) can be powerful things, and things need to considered with much discernment and prayer, as well as not contradict or "unnecessarily" add to scriptural precedent/verification.   :2c:

Still not sure of what I believe the nature of demons/Satan to be but yeah biblically speaking I'd say Jesus saw something unless it's metaphor:

Luke 10:18
Jesus answered them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'

[GodIsLove]

It's peripheral but i think discussing Satan/demons is related to UR and I often wonder of these things and how they fit into UR and have questions like:

1) How does free will and accountability fit  in if demons are allowed to influence us in unseen ways?
2) Why do we wrestle with sin and imperfection? Is it only our carnality we are battling?
3) Are demons and Satan beings and if so will they be reconciled to God in the UR paradigm?
4) if there is a temporary place of purification/teaching/testing after this life how does it work?
5) How do we overcome what we need to to become closer to God?
6) If they are not beings what are they and what is the Bible talking about?
7) Is the spirit realm interacting with us today (aka angels and demons) and if so what are the implications of this?

[DavidFord]

'...know anyone who sees demons' ?....yes, I know of  a Muslim fellow who i come across fairly often who claims to see 'Jinns' ( Koranic devils ) ....as for me, well, such a thing kind of offends my innate sense of rationality....also, it does not seem Biblical.....i.e. did Paul see demons ?...Peter ?....John ?....hmmmm, they don't appear to say they did....if such mighty pillars of the Faith never claimed to have seen demons why would somebody else have that ability....sounds 'fishy' to me....this fellow Healy claimed he saw demons....how do we know he did ?...to what purpose did God allow him to see demons ?

It's often easier to fight something you can see, compared with fighting an invisible opponent.  During ministry sessions, it's apparently easier to extract knives, spears, and meat hooks from people when you can see those implements.
"such a thing kind of offends my innate sense of rationality"
There are many things in the Bible that offend many peoples' "innate sense of rationality," e.g. the notion that God would make a lake of fire, and throw people He made into it.
"if such mighty pillars of the Faith never claimed to have seen demons why would somebody else have that ability"
Jesus is the biggest pillar of the faith around.  And yet he said this:

John 14:12 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+14%3A12&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
`Verily, verily, I say to you,
he who is believing in me,
the works that I do --
that one also shall do,
and greater than these he shall do,
because I go on to my Father;

[marie glen]

7) Is the spirit realm interacting with us today (aka angels and demons) and if so what are the implications of this?

As much as I believe there are fallen angels, and faithful angels, I seldom think about this! I did one day think of a phrase one day from a novel.. I was running around in kind of a bad mood, and the phrase 'in the grip of a fowl spirit" came to mind, which kind of stopped me up short.. (wait.. what?) I think the deviousness of the rebel angels / servants of God! proves UR.

How? I'm not sure. :gsmile: But I know it's true. ...Because there's only two paths? Full union w/ God. Or not. One is life and one is death. If the whole Pandora box of there being thinking, reasoning creatures, is opened, where does it lead?

What's the other option?

If the law of the universe is to be do as thy will.. Well, right off, it seems kind of natural that woman would spend some time being "ruled by man".. why? because man was physically stronger.. and was flawed..

And if you have freedom to choose.. some just may choose to mistreat and even oppress others.. it's an abyss.. That all in heaven and earth have to learn to deeply abhor..? To know that we know, that we know, that the wrong way only leads to self destruction (apocalypse) and horrors unimaginable.. as we shall all find out on Judgment 'Day'? (Of review?)
And I think His engineering of things so that seditious angels are involved, is His works to speed things along. And fully teach, convince “all in heaven and earth”..
   :gsmile:  :2c:

And "just as in Adam all die, even so, in Jesus shall all live.." The devils thrown to the LOF.. 2nd death.. I don't think any humans will go there (there being 2 ages in between His return and the lof) only as the baptism of fire after salvation and every day always. But for the angels in darkness.. I think maybe there is that crucible of refining for aion.. or olam.. but wait, it has to be before God makes all things new.. yes?

[CST]

Do you believe Satan is an actual dragon? What is an actual dragon doing in heaven, there are none on Earth. The dragon is symbolic of something so is Satan. It doesn't mean Satan is either a literal dragon or anything you might think he is.

Satan isn't "an actual dragon," nor is he an actual lion, nor an actual snake.  But he can drastically change appearance, and can act in a dragon-like, lion-like, and snake-like manner.

"Why would Jesus need to distribute drugs when the power of God worked perfectly well?"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly.  Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary.

"The Bible.... is, however, concerned with our spiritual welfare and some equip us for maintaining is sufficiently. A lack of proper information on demons is a pretty big lack to me."
Many people are unnecessarily suffering from demons that promote disease and mayhem.  Agreed, "a lack of proper information on demons"-- and how to dislodge them-- "is a pretty big lack" among far too many people.

"If the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades aren't they? So I would expect some difference in the state they are in. But obviously your Aramaic doesn't say that, so you don't. Another reason to suspect that the Bible perhaps should properly be in Greek because the Aramaic appears to have no equivalent to 'Tartarus'"

Yes, "if the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades."  Do you think Tartarus exists?

But I don't believe in UR for demons because demons are always presented as being utterly evil and cannot be redeemed. It is their nature to be evil and they take absolute pleasure from causing harm to humans and only from causing pain to humans. It is what they exist for and I have a major moral problem with this.

"demons are always presented as being utterly evil"

Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?

Really, show me because I've never seen a dragon, I was of the impression they don't exist in reality. And in the world the only place that I've actually seen lions and snakes is a zoo and I doubt any of them were Satan. Jesus is also describe as both a lion and a lamb but the Gospels don't record Him taking the form of either creature, why should i believe Satan can when the appearance  you argue for in the Gospel doesn't seem to convey any form of Satan.

Satan is described as a dragon symbolically, I can't see why God would convey on Satan the power to turn into a mythical monster (and Satan can't have any powers not conveyed to him by God) just to aid him in his rebellion. Nor can I see any reason to convey that power when there are better ones He could convey. Satan turning into a dragon in Heaven isn't going to fool anyone which is Satan's primary weapon. It makes no sense for Satan to be a dragon in Heaven, in fact it makes the kingdom of God sound more fallen than the Earth which I think is a massive problem.

The only person that comes of badly when Jesus struggles to heal is Jesus since God fails at nothing. So it's best you not mention that. Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better.

Yes, my point was is that if the Bible was clearer on demons we might have less reason to doubt they exist and therefore be less likely to abandon our fight against them. But we have abandoned our fight which suggests to me that given what Jesus said about them they'll have possessed the whole world by now. If they actually existed.

Peter's description of Tartarus, as I understand seems to recall a pseudepigraphal work we currently don't recognise so we should probably be careful how we read it. And, of course I don't think Tartarus exists. It's the place in Greek mythology which all the bad gods went these were the gods before the gods of Olympus and they were involved in a lot of the universes creation but then there was a battle and the got overthrown and ended up receiving special punishments in Tartarus. Believing in Tartarus means believing in the gods whose stories are connected to it. I can still believe in what it represents however.

In theory their should be a time when demons were not utterly evil but the Bible doesn't support this which I why I think it doesn't support the existence of demons.

[DavidFord]

Really, show me because I've never seen a dragon, I was of the impression they don't exist in reality.

I've seen a video about one:
Komodo Dragon - Epic Wildlife
https://youtu.be/WCjNQqRdv7U

I've never seen a leviathan, but I accept that they existed.  And its description sounds dragon-like to me:
Job 41 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+41&version=KJV
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Psalm 74:13-14 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+74&version=KJV
Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength:
thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces,
and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Isaiah 26:21-27:1 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+26&version=KJV
For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword
shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent,
even leviathan that crooked serpent;
and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Are you aware of any drugs that can cure blindness?

"The only person that comes of badly when Jesus struggles to heal is Jesus since God fails at nothing"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly, and Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary:

Mark 8 (from Aramaic, based on Younan)
22. And he came to Beth-Saida and they brought a blind man to him and were entreating him to touch him. 23. And he took the hand of the blind man and led him outside of the village. And he spat on his eyes and placed his hands (on him) and asked him what he saw. 24. He looked and said, "I see the sons of men resembling trees that are walking." 25. He again placed his hand upon his eyes. And he was restored and was seeing everything clearly.

Lk 8
26. And they journeyed and came to the land of the Gadarenes which is on the other side opposite of Galeela. 27. And when he went out onto land, a certain man from the medintha [city] caught up to him in whom had been a deewa [demon] for a long time. And he would not wear clothing and he would not dwell in a house, but in the cemetery. 28. And when he saw Yeshua, he cried out and fell down before him and in a loud voice said, "What have we to do with each other, Yeshua, the Son of the Most High Allaha? I beseech you, do not torment me." 29. For Yeshua was commanding to him-- to the unclean rukha [spirit]-- to go out from the man. For much time had passed since he was held captive by him. And he was bound with chains and he was restrained with bonds, but he would break his bonds and would be driven by the shada [demons] into the wilderness. 30. And Yeshua asked him,
"What is your name?"
He said to him, "Legion," because many deewa [demons] had entered into him. 31. And they were beseeching him that he would not command them to go to the abyss. 32. And there was there a herd of numerous swine that was feeding on the tuora [mountain], and they were beseeching him to permit them to enter into the swine. And he permitted them. 33. And the shada went out from the man and entered in the swine. And that whole herd rushed to a cliff and fell into the lake and they drowned. 34. And when the herders saw what happened, they fled and reported it in the medintha and in the villages. 35. And men came out to see what happened, and they came to Yeshua and found that man shadohy [whose shada] had departed, dressed and sober and sitting at the feet of Yeshua, and they were afraid. 36. And those who had seen (it) reported to them how he healed that possessed man.

"And Yeshua asked him, 'What is your name?'
Knowing a demon's name can assist in expelling it.

Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here:
There was a time when I didn't feel it was necessary to know the name of the demon, until one night. It was a cold and rainy night and we were on our way to pray for a friend, driving on the freeway. Suddenly my girl friend started to feel dizzy and nauseous. Then her legs started hurting so badly that they felt like they were being crushed. Then her head started hurting. I knew this was a demonic attack. I put my hand on her and commanded healing. She could feel power and heat come off my hand but the demon would override it, making it ineffective. Her vision started to go black and white and she was about to pass out. I prayed for ten minutes and nothing worked, not even a little. I told her to start worshiping. That didn't work. I told her to speak her identity in Christ over herself. That didn't work. I told her to plead the blood Christ over herself. That didn't work. I put my hand on her stomach and released joy on her. She felt joy come off my hand but the demon literally suppressed it.
This went on for 25 minutes and nothing was working. I felt completely powerless. I told infirmity and trauma to go and nothing worked. I said, "Demon leave," several times and there was no progress at all. Through this whole time, I'm asking God for help, but I heard nothing. I thought to myself, "Jesus calmed the storm by living from rest." So, I calmed down. Once I was at rest, I put my hand on her and spoke peace into her. She felt peace come off my hand, but the demon suppressed it. I didn't know what to do. I did everything that I had ever been taught through all my training in deliverance. I parked the car to the side of the road and sat there. All of sudden, I hear the Lord speak to me and say, "It is witchcraft and it was put on her." Immediately I turned and said, "Witchcraft — come out!" Instantly, she felt something move in her body. The demon left within 20 seconds and she was totally healed. ....

"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Perhaps psychiactric drugs failed to help Jersey.

Re:  M. Scott Peck, _Glimpses of the Devil: A Psychiatrist's Personal Accounts of Possession_ (2009)
https://www.amazon.com/Glimpses-Devil-Psychiatrists-Personal-Possession/dp/1439167265
Until the day Dr. Peck first met the young woman called Jersey, he did not believe in the devil. In fact, as a mature, highly experienced psychiatrist, he expected that this case would resolve his ongoing effort to prove to himself, as scientifically as possible, that there were absolutely no grounds for such beliefs. Yet what he discovered could not be explained away simply as madness or by any standard clinical diagnosis. Through a series of unanticipated events, Dr. Peck found himself thrust into the role of exorcist, and his desire to treat and help Jersey led him down a path of blurred boundaries between science and religion. Once there, he came face-to-face with deeply entrenched evil and ultimately witnessed the overwhelming healing power of love.

"if the Bible was clearer on demons we might have less reason to doubt they exist and therefore be less likely to abandon our fight against them. But we have abandoned our fight which suggests to me that given what Jesus said about them they'll have possessed the whole world by now. If they actually existed"

"given what Jesus said about them"
What are 2 remarks by Jesus you're thinking of?

Has the Arizona Deliverance Center abandoned its fight against demons?
https://www.hardcorechristianity.com/about-us/
Our Mission
Acts 26:18/Mark 7:27:  "To open the eyes of Christians to turn them from the deception of seducing spirits to the real truth of Christianity.  To turn them from the lies of the devil to the Truth of God, that they might understand that evil spirits have over-run the churches in North America & that Christians can be infected (not possessed) with spirits and need deliverance & that they can receive forgiveness of sins, physical healing & deliverance from demonic disease & mental illness & that they can receive an inheritance among those that are sanctified by Faith in Christ & understand that the Children's Bread of deliverance is for all saints."

Do you think those at Heart of the Father Ministries have abandoned their fight against demons?
https://www.heartofthefather.com/about/the-five-keys/
Every child of God carries the authority of the Father in the name of Jesus.  In Luke 1:71, we learn that in Christ, you have "salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us."  You do have enemies that have sought to rob you of your freedom.  In the authority of Jesus, you can take our stand against them through repentance, forgiveness, and renunciation.  Then the leader will declare victory by saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I command every spirit that (your name) has renounced to leave... right now." The command is an expression of faith that the enemy's power has been broken in our lives.

"the Bible... doesn't support the existence of demons"
Do you think the Bible supports the existence of unclean spirits?

23 Bible results for "unclean spirit."
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirit&qs_version=KJV

"I can still believe in what it represents however"
What do you think the Tartarus mentioned here represents?:

2 Peter 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/2_peter/2.htm
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

[CST]

"tartarus" I believe began as simply deepest darkness (state of) but then evolved into Greek myth.. Just a theory, I have not researched it. Same with hades, meant hidden/gone/not seen.. But became Greek myth for a level of an afterlife..

Deepest darkness, locked into because they cannot now change their course toward perfection, what with being imperfect, and locked into darkness, so chained and reserved in that state for judgment ('day').. imo. :Peace2:

Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?

If always evil, where did the angels "fall" from? As we know, it takes all verses..

If the adversary is merely the carnal character within us all.. Why all the metaphor to describe something already openly described?

If there's no belief in rebel angels? Is there belief in angels? They are fully programmed, but man was not? If so, would there be rationality?

Are angels beings? with thought and reaction? Or are they "winds" only? Thoughts? And if so, from whence came evil thoughts? From what source? This to me presents a big problem.

Remedied by the idea of thinking ability including the ability of choice. Doesn't it? Does rationality, naturally, include within it (sooner or later  /ultimately) the ability to make choices?

If no.. why or how not?

So say you create a perfect universe. Now what?? Flowers, trees, plants.. animals.. no dog eat dog..

Can you, or how can you, create thinking, reasoning, learning beings?

And keep everything perfect? Can it be done? How can it be done, and still have rational, thinking, pondering, creative beings, with true power of thought? Will very limited power of thought work? Could that be perfect? "Good"? ...Satisfying to the creator?

   :Peace2: :2c:

I don't believe in Satan as a conscious being that invisibly walks the planet and tempts us to sin at best I believe that there might be some more abstract agency in nature that provokes are carnal mind and thus us to sin, that hides from us the weaknesses in the things that tempt us, stop us recognise bad ideas so not to act on that. As I said I don't believe in Satan as a fallen angel I do believe the word represents something but only a conscious entity needs to be saved.

You can argue that if Satan is merely the carnal character, which is plainly described, why do we need all the metaphor? But the response to that is that given that the carnal character is described so clearly why is it not sufficient to explain our sin?

The Bible is clear, we are in slavery to the carnal mind and cannot be rescued from it's siren song unless God blocks our ears. What exactly does Satan add to the equation?

I'm not sure what I believe about angels, I'm more inclined to believe in them than Satan and demons but at that point I must conclude I have no idea what they are. The word means 'messenger' but beyond that I don't know what the corresponds to because the Bible doesn't tell me.

And, yes, the ability to make choices for good or evil is highly important in a rational world but to me Satan threatens that choice he doesn't enable it. I am perfectly capable of having ideas for good or ill and weighing them up in my mind and coming to what I think is the correct decision of whether to act on the idea (because it is good) or abandon it (because it is evil) obviously I am often wrong in my conclusion.

Adding Satan into the equation means introducing ideas that are not my own, giving an unreasonably strong argument or set of arguments for the evil idea. Maybe an angel will argue for the good (though the Bible never supports this) idea as in numerous comedies. But they're comedies and by their nature make the idea ridiculous. If I can't come to the right or wrong conclusion by myself what have I learned? What do I gain? My own reason and logic, oh so important and what you are trying to defend in this equation, is rendered all but useless.

Some mysteries are meant to remain mysteries, which is why Jesus said

This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Mt 13;10

In my view, understanding that we know very little about everything Divine in its immense totality, is an absolute pre-requisite to learning more about God.

Yet, understanding (comprehension) that is appropriate to this stage of being (the tabernacle of the flesh) is given to those who sincerely and humbly ask, seek and knock (Matthew 7:7-8).

Therefore, mysteries remain mysteries for some perhaps, but to others it is given to know:

And the disciples came up and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables?

And he answering said to them, Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not given...

Matthew 13:10-11

Indeed, and yet everyone can read the Bible where the 'mysteries' are supposedly clearly explained.

I read recently, and thus relearned that in theological usage 'mystery' does not mean something puzzling or difficult to get your head around as in common usage. Rather it means something that can only be known if God reveals it. The mysteries simply refer to whatever God has or hasn't revealed.

[CST]

Jesus teaches that: "...every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) This is some sort of hyperbole, surely?

Maybe, and maybe not.  Perhaps it's the case that people can influence and do things in the spiritual world with their imaginations.  Perhaps a married guy imagining having sex with someone not his wife results in him actually having sex with something not his wife-- not in the physical realm, but in the spiritual realm.  Healy saw a young guy's thoughts of mentally stripping a female singer.

Blake Healy, _The Veil: An Invitation to the Unseen Realm_
https://www.amazon.com/Veil-Invitation-Unseen-Realm/dp/1629994901/

Hmm, I've thought about that before. Under that line of reasoning human imagination can create both angels and demons that didn't formally exist. This is the only proposition I'm even prepared to consider for the existence of demons: that belief in demons creates demons. But, obviously, that may be the most dangerous idea ever proposed.

Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity?  With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com

I've already answer the other question.

In looking through your posts, the closest to an answer I could find was this:
"As I said i don't believe in Satan, Jesus is using a text from Isaiah which usually refers to the King of Babylon to make a point about the defeat of evil. We know now that 'Heaven' isn't actually, literally 'up there', we've sent spaceships 'up there' and not found Heaven so it is not literally possible for Satan to fall from Heaven to Earth like that Jesus is speaking in parables as usual you need to discern what He is actually saying."

You don't think Satan exists:  "As I said i don't believe in Satan."
I think that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity, aka Satan.  I think Jesus had the conversation below with Satan:

Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.

You don't think Satan exists.  Do you think malicious, conscious entities called 'demons' exist?

I've already answered that question too. I thought it was the root of this discussion. Of course if you didn't flood the threads with post after post of various translations and definitions it would be easier to find what I put where.

First, did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things? Because that's a very important question
Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Yes, God made the world good but that's a big part of my problem. I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve either but if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have under this reason. God called the world good and it remains so even though we do much bad and evil.
People with demons tend to incline against doing the things described in though verses which makes them hard to for them to fight.
In answer to your question about those four things, yes. Satan doesn't literally exist so didn't literally do those things. when Satan appears in the Bible however he represents something, not always the same thing, and what he represents does exist.

"did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things?"
Yes.

Luke 7 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And his talmida [students/disciples] reported all these things to Yukhanan. 19. And Yukhanan called two of his talmida and he sent them to Yeshua and said, "Are you he that is to come or should we wait for another?" 21. And they came to Yeshua and said to him,
"Yukhanan the baptizer sent us to you and said, '(Are) you he that is to come or should we wait for another?'" 21. And in that same hour, he healed many of their sickness and of plagues and of evil rukha [spirits], and he gave sight to many blind. 22. And Yeshua answered and said to them,
"Go tell Yukhanan everything that you have seen and heard,
that the blind see
and the lame walk
and the lepers are cleansed
and the deaf hear
and the dead arise
and the poor are given hope.
23. And blessed is he who is not offended at me."

"Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days"
Jesus has given every follower of his the authority and power to cast out demons.  It's sad that few Christians today imitate Jesus in casting out demons.  A low-key approach to expelling demons is the Unbound approach explained by Lozano; Kraft has used a similar approach to help over 2,000 people obtain much freedom.

Charles Kraft, _Two Hours to Freedom: A Simple and Effective Model for Healing and Deliverance_ (2010)
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Hours-Freedom-Effective-Deliverance/dp/0800794982/
Neil Lozano, _Unbound: A Practical Guide to Deliverance_
https://www.amazon.com/Unbound-Practical-Deliverance-Neal-Lozano/dp/0800794125/
do a control-f/ find for:  mimic
to get to:   Unbound: Expelling the Influence of Demons
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730

"Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then"
Indeed.  I knew a young person that was killed, and demons played a large role in that person's violent death.

"Satan... in the Bible... what he represents does exist"
In your view, what are some of the things that the Bible's mentions of Satan represent?

"I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve"
Do you in addition disbelieve Jesus had Adam as an ancestor?

Luke 3 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+3&version=NKJV
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi.... 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

"Adam and Eve... if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have"
God gives people choices.  Often people choose poorly, bringing heartache to both themselves and many others.

Deut 30:19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+30&version=NKJV
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you
life and death,
blessing and cursing;
therefore choose life,
that both you and your descendants may live;

Haven't we gone over much of this? Your repetitive posting is making this discussion very hard to follow.

[CST]

Speaking of goodness, I learned recently that His goodness and Glory are basically the same thing. For example, when Moses asked to see God's Glory, he got the goodness. But, it was the same thing. Same thing when God called everything good and very good.

Just asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?

For future reference God is self-entailing: all of God's qualities are the same thing.

I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.

Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?

agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.

Absolutely :thumbsup: as with seeking 'experiences' and strange extra-biblical things.. myths.. disputings over the law.. etc, etc., but especially seeking miracles and experiences.. -- Jus give me God's Word! -- It's real good to know, however, that negative thoughts and ideas are untruths.. no matter where they come from. God's Word - knowing it, being aware of what it says, and knowing what is true (real) and what is not true.. (sealed on the forehead? a virgin mind/consciousness?) What we believe becomes part of us. And it all bears fruit..
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:

Really? Because I think belief in demons is a rather negative idea.

It's peripheral but i think discussing Satan/demons is related to UR and I often wonder of these things and how they fit into UR and have questions like:

1) How does free will and accountability fit  in if demons are allowed to influence us in unseen ways?
2) Why do we wrestle with sin and imperfection? Is it only our carnality we are battling?
3) Are demons and Satan beings and if so will they be reconciled to God in the UR paradigm?
4) if there is a temporary place of purification/teaching/testing after this life how does it work?
5) How do we overcome what we need to to become closer to God?
6) If they are not beings what are they and what is the Bible talking about?
7) Is the spirit realm interacting with us today (aka angels and demons) and if so what are the implications of this?

Quite so, it's questions like these that make me doubt the existence of demons. Demons seem to block the access of the possessed to God. When I believed in the tradition view of Hell I often wondered what happened if someone died while still possessed by a demon. How did their being possessed after their standing before God when judged. Since the effect didn't sound promising I started to doubt demons exist. I still do, I don't see unfair for God to judge people for their offences against others which they chose to commit. However offences they committed that they were compelled or tricked into committing by Satan or demons. To me UR has to pertain to the actual process of being saved and whatever responsibility we have in that process. It can't simply be 'Don't worry everyone, there's a light even at the end of the Hell tunnel.' ET proponents rightly criticise that sort of thinking that they imagine we have.

[sheila]

the answers are in the scriptures..the Holy city camp surrounded[under seige/cut off living water/food sustenance/true wordof GOd]

also known as 'shroud" covering the  people..or 'like a cloudcome up over the land"

also,Jesus stated he would 'seperate'the people from the mingled seed..and appear again unto us 'seperate' from sin.

God teaches by positive andnegative examples ..our whole TOKOGAE expierence inthis temporal realm issuch.

Tol of freegift of righteousness and eternal life through Christis thepeace we are led forth to from this warring of good and evil..or

man's sore travail. make the tree either good or evil.[tokogae].unlawful mixing of good/evil in man[known as sin in flesh]

  God is good....and He shall lead all men to TOL through Jesus Christ.Let us make man in our image and likeness

=immortal/incorruptible. :2c:

[marie glen]

I think it's the ability to make choices.. an abyss of possibility.. so what, God would teach all in heaven at a different time than teaching all on Earth? Jesus is the exact representation of His person.  "have the ppl sit down in groups of fifty or one hundred.."

Negatives like.. I don't like that person.. Gee is that cancer?... or whatever.. ideas.. can be (peacefully) ordered away in the name of Jesus, in fact I'd advise it.... resist the adversary and he will flee from you.. (whether a spirit or a thought) every good thing comes from above..

"The answer is in the scriptures.."

:thumbsup: bottom line.. always :banana: :cloud9: