Gehenna and Sheol in the Aramaic NT

[DavidFord]

Rev 15:3-4:  rhymes in Aramaic

a a n a n   a a n a n   th

Rev 15:3-4 (slightly modified Murdock), http://dukhrana.com
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,  [last word: d'Alaha
and the song of the Lamb, -------------------------------------------- d'Amra       
and were saying: Great and marvellous are thy deeds, ------------- aibdyn
Lord God Almighty; ------------------------------------------------------ Alaha
just and true are thy deeds, -------------------------------------------- aibdyn

O King of worlds. --------------------------------------------------- d'ailma
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, ------------------------------------ MrYa
and glorify thy name? ----------------------------------------------- l'shmn
Because thou only art holy and just: -------------------------------- khsya
Because all nations shall come and worship before thee, ------- qdmyn

since thy righteousnesses have been revealed. ---------------------- anth

Another take on a translation:
Rev 15:3-4 (Aramaic Peshi+ta NT)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
And they were praising the praise song of Moses, the servant of God,
and the praise song of the Lamb
and were saying, "Great and wondrous [are] your works,
LORD God Almighty,
upright and true [are] your works,

King of the ages.
Who will not fear you, LORD,
and glorify your name?
Because you alone are innocent,
because all the nations will come and will worship before you,
because you are right."

[CST]

God creates the universe and all life in it...from himself.
For God to then destroy some of his creation is to have him destroy some of himself.
For God to create life knowing He will extinguish it later is IMO contrary to His character revealed to us in Jesus the Christ.

"God creates... all life... from himself"
Reference?
"God creates the universe... from himself"
Ref?
"For God to then destroy some of his creation"
Do you think God:  ever destroyed a fig tree?  would ever destroy the present physical universe?

Mt 21 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And in the morning when he [Yeshua] returned to the medintha [city], he hungered. 19. And he saw a certain fig tree by the road and came to it and he did not find anything on it except only leaves. And he said to it,
"Let there not be on you again fruit forever!"
And at once, that fig tree withered. 20. And the talmida [students] saw and marveled and were saying, "How quickly the fig tree withered."

Do you believe in eternal hell, finite hell, annihilation, UR...
Do you believe Melivin's vision of hell over all the other visions of hell that are contradictory to his?
Do you believe God metes out punishment or our own consequences are punishment or there is no punishment?

I'm not a universalist yet, but I'd like univeralism to be true.  The last time I looked into matters, I ditched the neverending-torture position, and became an annihilationist.  I'm persuaded that Sheol exists, Jesus preached there once, people are being tormented there currently, often in quite awful, horrific, nightmarish ways by demons doing to people things that those people did to others while on earth, and I'd like it to be the case that Jesus—who holds the keys of Sheol—will once again preach in Sheol and clear the place out.  Perhaps Sheol's gates will be broken down by the church invading the place.
I consider Mary K. Baxter's _A Divine Revelation of Hell_ hogwash.  I accept Melvin's recounting, and Ian McCormack's, which is different than Melvin's; I wouldn't say they're contradictory accounts, but they certainly are very different.  Different people in hell experience different things, depending on I don't know what-- maybe based on what they did while on earth, and their level of awareness of right vs. wrong.

Luke 12 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
47. And that servant who knows the will of his Lord
and does not prepare for him according to his will,
will be beaten with many (stripes).
48. But he who does not know
and does the thing that is worthy of stripes
will be beaten (with) fewer stripes.
For anyone who is given much to him,
much is required from him.
And he to whom they have committed much to him,
more will they require by his hand.

Bad consequences for one's self often result from one's sin.  God established laws in the universe such that that occurs-- it's not the case that God has to intervene in his universe to dispense punishment. God's wrath typically looks like God allowing people to suffer the bad consequences of their bad actions-- see Romans 1, and Bradley Jersak's _A More Christlike God: A More Beautiful Gospel_
https://www.amazon.com/More-Christlike-God-Beautiful-Gospel/dp/1889973165/
Consequences, e.g. transmission of sexually-transmitted diseases among those engaging in sexual immorality, and sin injuring one's soul thereby giving demons footholds to work with in this life (and the afterlife if one arrives in hell), are built into the universe.

Ok I guess I don't have sources to *prove* that God made the universe from himself, what I meant was that everything came FROM Him, so I was thinking that we were created from His thoughts spoken into existence (the word aka the Christ) which are a part of God, and from his own substance, since only God existed before creation, and He exists everywhere, and anything he creates he will by default fill with Himself since he is everywhere.

John
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it.

I read that the total amount of matter in the universe can cancel out the total of negative gravitational energy, yielding a universe with zero (or close to zero) net matter/energy, sort of a balanced system that amounts to nothing.

Also, Physicists have discovered that the entire universe is pure energy, and that nothing is solid. In the words of Einstein,
"Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter."

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant, it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.

And some scripture describing the omnipresence of God:

"Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord" (Jer. 23:23–24).

Where can I go from your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there; if I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you (Psalm 139:7-12).

And some scripture about humankind's creation:

Genesis
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,"

Ecc 12
7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

*****

Thanks for clarifying your stance, it was helpful.

One thing I think is that if we would like universal salvation to be true, how much more does God want it to be true, as he is perfect and love and we are neither (yet).

I agree with your last bit about natural laws and consequences for actions.

I also, lately, agree with your stance that Jesus preached in Sheol.

Don't have the sources? Doesn't John 1 do it? You quote it why don't you think it does it? Colossians 1:16-17 should also do it. Hebrews 1:2-3 is another one. And, of course, Revelation 4:11.

[DavidFord]

Rev 18 Semitic poetry parallelism

Esp. in verses 2-7, 11-14, 21-24.  I revised Murdock's verse 2, and removed from it lines mentioning birds and beasts of prey—they're not in Crawford, and not in dukhrana's interlinear.  I replaced his verse 3's 'wrath' with 'fornication' after looking at interlinears from Glaser and dukhrana.

Rev 18 (Murdock, from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
1 - After these things,
I saw another angel come down from heaven;
and he had great authority
and the earth was illumined by his glory.
2 - And he cried with a strong voice, saying:

Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great:
and hath become a cavern of demons,
and every unclean detestable spirit.
3 - For all the nations
have drunken of the wine of her fornication;
and the kings of the earth
have practised whoredom with her;
and the merchants of the earth
have been enriched by the abundance of her luxuries.

4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying:

Come ye out of her, my people;
that ye may not participate in her sins,
and may not partake of her plagues.
5 - For her sins have reached up to heaven;
and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 - Recompense ye to her,
as she also hath recompensed;
and render to her double,
according to her deeds;
in the cup which she hath mixed,
mix ye to her two fold.
7 - As much as she pleased herself with lasciviousness,
so much of anguish and sorrow give ye to her.
Because she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and I shall see no sorrow;
8 - therefore, in one day, shall these her plagues come,
death, and mourning, and famine;
and she shall be burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 - And the kings of the earth
who committed whoredom
and were lascivious with her,
shall weep, and mourn, and bewail her,
when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 - standing afar off, from fear of her torment, [and] saying,

Alas, alas !
that great city Babylon,
that powerful city;
for in one hour is thy judgment come!

11 - And the merchants of the earth will mourn over her,
because no one purchaseth their cargo;
12 - no more, the cargo of gold, and silver,
and precious stones, and pearls,
and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet,
and every aromatic wood, and all vessels of ivory, and all vessels of very precious wood,
and of brass, and of iron, and of marble,
13 - and cinnamon, and amomum, and aromatics, and unguents, and frankincense,
and wine, and oil,
and fine flour, and wheat,
and beasts of burden, and sheep, and horses, and chariots,
and the bodies and souls of men.
14 - And the fruits which thy soul desired,
have departed from thee;
and all things delicious and splendid
have perished from thee;
and the traders in them
shall obtain them no more.

15 - And they who were enriched from her,
will stand afar off, for fear of her torment;
and will weep and mourn, 16 - saying:

Alas, alas!
that great city,
which was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet,
and gilded with gold, and precious stones, and pearls;
because, in one hour,
such riches are laid waste.

17 - And every pilot, and every navigator to the place,
and the sailors, and all who do business by sea stood afar off,
18 - and cried, when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying:

What [other] is like this great city !

19 - And they cast dust on their heads,
and cried, weeping, and mourning, and saying:

Alas, alas
that great city,
in which all that have ships in the sea became rich,
by her preciousness;
for in one hour she hath become desolate.

20 - Rejoice over her, O heaven,
and ye Angels, and Legates, and Prophets;
because God judgeth your cause with her.

21 - And an angel took up a stone like a great millstone,
and cast it into the sea, saying:

So shall Babylon,
the great city,
be thrown down with violence,
and shall no more be found:
22 - and the voice of harpers and musicians and pipers and trumpeters,
shall no more be heard in thee;
and no artificer of any trade,
shall be found any more in thee.
23 - And the light of a candle,
shall not be seen in thee;
and the voice of a bridegroom and bride,
shall no more be heard in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth,
because all nations were seduced by thy sorceries.
24 - And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints,
and of all those that have been slain on the earth.

[DavidFord]

Ok I guess I don't have sources to *prove* that God made the universe from himself, what I meant was that everything came FROM Him, so I was thinking that we were created from His thoughts spoken into existence (the word aka the Christ) which are a part of God, and from his own substance, since only God existed before creation, and He exists everywhere, and anything he creates he will by default fill with Himself since he is everywhere.

God made angels, some of which fell.  Does God fill fallen angels?

"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant, it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another."

God created matter-energy and space-time in the big bang, creation-out-of-nothing creation event.

"One thing I think is that if we would like universal salvation to be true, how much more does God want it to be true, as he is perfect and love and we are neither (yet)."

Ah, but as Rob Bell asks, 'Does God always get what he wants?'  I bet God is so brilliant that he can give angels and humans free will, and still get what he ultimately wants.

[DavidFord]

Don't have the sources? Doesn't John 1 do it? You quote it why don't you think it does it? Colossians 1:16-17 should also do it. Hebrews 1:2-3 is another one. And, of course, Revelation 4:11.

I'm not understanding-- sources for what?  Don't think what does what, exactly?

[CST]

GIL claimed that God made the universe (all life) from Himself. You asked for references and then GIL replied and said she didn't have the sources. But quoted John 1 all the same. I personally think it is pretty obvious that God created the universe from Himself. I though about it quite a bit recently because it speaks to modern issues on the question of the nature of gender.

"for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17)

"but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Hebrews 1:2-3)

Obviously if you are of the group that doesn't believe Jesus is God you might not be able to read these passages that way. But then you'll already be having problems because if all thing are made through a being that is not God then what has God got to do with the universe?

The also have the problem of Revelation 4:

""Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created." (Revelation 4:11)

At this point you now have to explain, if you don't believe Jesus is God, how He is worthy to receive things only God is really entitled to and is clearly identified as God. Of course, you many think that shouldn't be there though but most of the deity of Jesus doubters obviously think it should.

You ask if God fills fallen angels:

'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

If the fallen angels qualify as 'things' (which they clearly do) then the answer to your question is 'yes, God fills fallen angels.'

Now here is the question: what is gender?

The Bible teaches the God made man (meaning male and female) in His image and after His likeness. The difference between these two words is oft disputed but it suggest at least that man is not a completely original thing and this creates a logical problem for the question of gender.

Because let's say a man is, in principle, entirely like God. If God were actually male as has been traditionally believed. The characteristics of the male gender (whatever they may be) are the characteristics of God. So then what are the characteristics of the female gender? Because they're clearly not the complete antithesis of the characteristics of God are they or else all women would have to be utterly evil which obviously isn't the case despite what some want to believe.

So gender is not an antithetic state but more likely a different balancing of the same characteristics. All of which God has in some form. So what is the balance. While there's some reason to believe there is one historical prejudice makes it harder to identify what it actually is.

So why is that pertinent to the question of whether or not God created the universe out of Himself. It's because He must have done as there was nothing else He could have created it from. Everything in the universe is something God chose to create an idea He had. We have ideas about things that God did not choose to create so, consequentially, these things don't really exist in the world. But everything that God created comes from Himself, He conceived it from His character and according to His will He made it. There is nothing that exist that is alien to God, nothing made that isn't somehow part of His design conforming to what He wanted  to make out of His imagination. The universe can contain nothing that does not have God as its source, if it did God would be overthrown. That is the meaning behind the opening words of the Bible: "In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth." There is nothing God did not make and nothing that does not have God at its source. This is so fundamental only atheists question it. GIL think she has no sources. Every word of the Bible is her source.

[DavidFord]

David Robert Palmer, The Revelation of John, part of The Holy Bible, The Ancient Greek Text, alternating verse by verse with A new English translation from the Greek, with translator's footnotes and Greek textual variant footnotes (May 2017)
http://bibletranslation.ws/palmer-translation/
PDF:
http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf
170 10:1b The Greek word here, πους, is the word for feet, but in ancient Greek and many other
languages the words for foot or for hand (χειρ) can mean the whole extremity or whole limb.
That is especially true in Revelation, which displays much Aramaic influence. It is far more
appropriate here to speak of a leg being like a column or pillar than a foot being like a column
or pillar.
....
246 13:16b .... An Aramaism is an unusual and rare occurrence, and I think the burden of proof that it is occurring, is on the one saying it is. That said, I have come to believe that Revelation does
show an Aramaic mind in its author. For example, though even ancient Greek the words for
foot πούς and hand χείρ originally meant the whole limb, not just the foot and hand, this is
most definitely always true in Hebrew and Aramaic. The author of Revelation uses πούς,
"foot" to mean the whole limb, where he says the feet of the angel were like "columns" of fire
Legs are like columns, and feet are not. Therefore similarly, we must conclude that in
Revelation 13:16, with χείρ the author means anywhere on the entire upper right limb, not
just the hand.

[DavidFord]

a little rhyming:  Rev 18:2-3

Rev 18 (modified using Murdock, Lamsa, Glaser, from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
2 - And he cries out with a strong voice, --------- last word:  raba
Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great: -------------------------- rabtha
and has become a dwelling to demons, --------------------- l'shada
and a garrison of every unclean detestable spirit. --------------- a'syntha
3 - Because wine of her fornication was mingled to all nations -- aimma
and kings of the earth fornicated with her ---------------------------- znyu
and the merchants of the earth grew wealthy from the power of her trade. -- aithru

[DavidFord]

'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

Do you believe Jesus preached in Sheol?

Mt 12 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
38. Then, men of the Sapra [Scribes] and of the Pharisees answered and said to him, "Malpana [Teacher], we desire to see a sign from you." 39. And he answered and said to them,
"An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign,
and a sign will not be given to it
except the sign of Yonan [Jonah] the nabia [prophet].
40. For as Yonan was
in the belly of the fish
three days and three nights,
likewise will the Barh-d'Ansha be
in the heart of the earth
three days and three nights.

Romans 10:7 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And who shall descend into the deep of Sheul,
And bring up the Meshiha from among the dead ?
(Murdock) Or, Who descendeth to the abyss of the grave,
and bringeth up Messiah from the place of the dead?
(Lamsa) And who has descended into the abyss of Sheol
and brought up Christ from the dead?

Act 2:24 (APNT)   
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/english-word-search
But God raised him and released the cords of Sheol,
because it was not possible that he should be held captive in Sheol.

Acts 2:31
(Etheridge) And he foresaw and spake concerning,
the resurrection of the Meshiha,
that He would not be left in Shiul,
nor would his body see corruption.

1Pe 3:19-20 (APNT)
And he preached to those souls who were held captive in Sheol,
those who previously were disobedient in the days of Noah,
when [in] the long-suffering of God
he commanded an ark to be made,
in hope of their repentance,
yet only eight souls entered it
and were kept alive on the water.

[MusicLover123]

JM-NT 1Pe 3:18  because even Christ (or: considering that Christ also) died [other MSS: suffered], once for all, concerning and in relation to failures to hit the target (about errors and mistakes; around and encompassing sins [note: some MSS: our failures; other MSS: your failures]) -- a Just One (a rightwised One; One in accord with the Way pointed out; a fair and equitable individual) over (for the sake of) unjust ones (capsized ones; those out of accord with the Way pointed out; unfair and inequitable ones), to the end that He may bring (or: lead; conduct) you folks [other MSS: us] to (or: toward) God.  [He], on the one hand, being put to death in flesh, yet on the other hand, being made alive in spirit (or: indeed, being put to death by flesh, yet, being engendered a living one by spirit or: [the] Spirit), 
1Pe 3:19  journeying (going from one place to another; passing on) within which, He also proclaimed (published; preached; heralded) the message to the spirits in prison (within a guardhouse):
1Pe 3:20  to those being at one time unconvinced (unpersuaded; disobedient; uncompliant) within [the] days of Noah, when (while) he was continuing to be receiving forth and taking away from out of God's state of emotional quietness (taking a long time before rushing or being in a heat of passion; long-enduring patience) while [the] ark was progressively being prepared and equipped (constructed to readiness) -- into which a few folks, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through [the] water (or: were brought safely through, by means of water)

Speaking of verse 18 to 19, I don't know, did He preach to them between His death and resurrection, or after? And, are the Spirits/souls in prison those from Noah's day/before Christ came?

[DavidFord]

Semiticism in Revelation:  'the small and great' = everyone

from
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=great+small&qs_version=NKJV&limit=500

Revelation 11:18 (NKJV)
The nations were angry,
and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
And that You should reward
Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name,
small and great,
And should destroy those
who destroy the earth."

Revelation 13:16
He causes all,
both small and great,
rich and poor,
free and slave,
to receive a mark
on their right hand
or on their foreheads,

Revelation 19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying,
"Praise our God,
all you His servants
and those who fear Him,
both small and great!"

Revelation 19:18
that you may eat the flesh of kings,
the flesh of captains,
the flesh of mighty men,
the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them,
and the flesh of all people,
free and slave,
both small and great."

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Genesis 19:11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

Deuteronomy 1:17 You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid in any man's presence, for the judgment is God's. ....

1 Samuel 5:9 ....the hand of the Lord was against the city with a very great destruction; and He struck the men of the city, both small and great, and tumors broke out on them.
1 Samuel 30:2 and had taken captive the women and those who were there, from small to great; they did not kill anyone, but carried them away and went their way.

2 Kings 23:2 The king went up to the house of the Lord with all the men of Judah, and with him all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—the priests and the prophets and all the people, both small and great.  ....
2 Kings 25:26 And all the people, small and great, and the captains of the armies, arose and went to Egypt; for they were afraid of the Chaldeans.

1 Chronicles 25:8 And they cast lots for their duty, the small as well as the great, the teacher with the student.
2 Chronicles 31:15 ....to distribute allotments to their brethren by divisions, to the great as well as the small.

Esther 1:5 And when these days were completed, the king made a feast lasting seven days for all the people who were present in Shushan the citadel, from great to small, in the court of the garden of the king's palace.

Job 3:19 The small and great are there, And the servant is free from his master.
Psalm 115:13 He will bless those who fear the Lord, Both small and great.
Jeremiah 16:6 Both the great and the small shall die in this land. ....

Acts 26:22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come—

[DavidFord]

JM-NT 1Pe 3:18.... Speaking of verse 18 to 19, I don't know, did He preach to them between His death and resurrection, or after? And, are the Spirits/souls in prison those from Noah's day/before Christ came?

It sounds to me like Jesus preached in Sheol after his death and probably before his resurrection, and at the latest before his ascension.
It sounds like the people preached to were from Noah's day, and probably those who died before Noah arrived.  Who knows, maybe it included all those in Sheol who died before Christ died.

1Peter 3 (Lamsa), http://dukhrana.com
17 - For it is better,
if it is the will of God,
that you suffer for good deeds,
rather than for evil doing.
18 - For Christ also once suffered for our sins,
a just man for sinners,
that he might bring you to God,
wherefore while he died in the flesh,
he lives in the Spirit.
19 - And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;
20 - Those who in the past were disobedient;
and in the days of Noah,
when the Spirit of God had patience,
he commanded an ark to be made
in the hope of their repentance,
but only eight souls entered into it,
and were saved by it floating upon the water.
21 - You also are saved in that very manner by baptism,
not merely by washing the filth from the body,
but by confessing God with a clean conscience,
and by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 - Who is taken up to heaven,
and is at the right hand of God;
angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.

[DavidFord]

The characteristics of the male gender.... So then what are the characteristics of the female gender?

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2311/Feminine-Characteristics-God.htm
We see ample and abundant masculine traits in the Bible: strength, power, decisiveness, aggressiveness, provider, ruler, and leader. Feminine traits are also abundant: beauty, grace, mercy, tenderness, caring, and affectionate.

Mt 23 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
36. Amain I say to you that all these things will come upon this generation.
37. Urishlim! Urishlim!
Murderess of the nabia [prophets]
and stoner of those that are sent to her!
How often I have desired to gather your children
like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and (you) did not desire (it)!
38. Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

Lk 23
27. And a multitude of people was coming after him, and women who were wailing and mourning for him. 28. And Yeshua turned and said to them,
"Daughters of Urishlim,
do not cry for me,
but cry for yourselves
and for your children.
29. For behold the days are coming in which they will say,
Blessed are the barren
and the wombs that have not given birth
and the breasts that have not nursed.'
30. Then you will begin to say to the mountains,
Fall upon us!'
and to the heights,
Cover us!'
31. For if to the green wood they do these things,
what will happen to the dry?"

The Feminine Imagery of God in the Hebrew Bible
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/priscilla-papers/feminine-imagery-god-hebrew-bible
The Hebrews emphasized the ruach Elohim, identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Then even later in the Wisdom literature, including Proverbs and the apocryphal books of Wisdom and Sirach, this holy spirit of God was identified with Lady Wisdom (Prov. 1:20-22; 8:1-9:6; Wis. 1:6-7, 6:22-25).
In summary, in the first two verses of Genesis there is a parallel construction between the masculine and feminine. In the first verse, God, Elohim, creates the heavens and the earth. The noun is masculine and the verb ending is masculine. In the second verse, the ruach Elohim m'reche-phet, the spirit of God hovers. The noun, spirit or breath or wind, is feminine, and the verb ending is feminine. This ruach Elohim (Gen. 1:2) is identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Male and female are in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27). Wisdom is identified as She in the Protestant Book of Proverbs (8:24). The Holy Spirit is identified with the feminine spirit of Wisdom in the Catholic Apocrypha.
....
I am now aware that there are many passages concerning God in the Hebrew describing God in maternal and feminine metaphor, including Deuteronomy 32:18b, where God groans and gives birth in an image of a woman in labor. My foundational concept of the feminine in God is in Genesis in the introduction, where God is described with both masculine and feminine nouns and verbs, as Elohim and ruach Elohim. I now have this awesome certitude that, as a woman, I have been defined in the Hebrew Scripture as made in the image and likeness of God.

[MusicLover123]

Isn't God also in Hebrew mean breasted one or something?

Also, We are ALL made in the image of God, both male AND female are part of His image! And, we are all one in the body of Christ.

David, you bring of the Apocrypha. What do you think of that?

[DavidFord]

Isn't God also in Hebrew mean breasted one or something?

Michael L. Brown, "No, El Shaddai Does Not Mean 'God With Breasts'" (Feb 8, 2018)
https://askdrbrown.org/library/no-el-shaddai-does-not-mean-'god-breasts'
But there's more. "Calkins read from Genesis Chapter 17, in which God tells Abraham 'I am El Shaddai.' She said that if Episcopalians 'are going to be true to what El Shaddai means, it means God with breasts.'" Yes, the God of Israel is a fertility deity with breasts!  ....Calkins is not the first to make this claim, and I've even heard it in some evangelical circles, where it was taught that God as the "many breasted one" spoke of God as Provider.
But there's not a stitch of scholarly evidence to support this, and I can state that with authority. Not only is my Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University, but I specialized in comparative Semitic lexicography (meaning, understanding dictionary definitions of words in light of the comparative ancient languages).

My doctoral dissertation focused on one Hebrew word (in light of its ancient Near Eastern background), and I own every major Hebrew lexicon and theological encyclopedia. Every single one of them rejects the idea that El Shaddai means "God of (many) breasts." (I even did a short Facebook video, with a large pile of these books in hand, to demonstrate the point.)
It's possible that the name Shaddai is related to an ancient Akkadian word for "mountain," hence depicting God as a Rock, a common scriptural image speaking of power. (Akkadian refers to the language of the Babylonians and Assyrians.) But this is far from certain.
What we do know is that the ancient biblical translators commonly rendered Shaddai with "Almighty," and they likely had a good reason for it. As for the idea that the God of Israel, who identified Himself with male pronouns and used masculine verbs, was depicted as a many-breasted female fertility deity, they would have found the idea blasphemous. So should we.

the Apocrypha. What do you think of that?

The 1611 King James translated the Apocrypha and printed it as a section between the OT and NT.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Apocrypha-Books/
The material is interesting, esp. Ecclesiasticus i.e. Sirach. 
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ecclesiasticus-Chapter-1/
If memory serves correct, Baruch has what seemed to me to be Messianic prophecies about Jesus.

The Septuagint has the Apocrypha, so I'd say the Apocrypha belongs in the Bible.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/

[CST]

'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

Do you believe Jesus preached in Sheol?

Since, that's what that seems to mean, yes. But it also suggests He rescued most all of them. And most importantly it doesn't say He had to teach them the Gospel while they were being tortured by demons which might be a problem for sincerity, attention and morality.

The characteristics of the male gender.... So then what are the characteristics of the female gender?

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/2311/Feminine-Characteristics-God.htm
We see ample and abundant masculine traits in the Bible: strength, power, decisiveness, aggressiveness, provider, ruler, and leader. Feminine traits are also abundant: beauty, grace, mercy, tenderness, caring, and affectionate.

Mt 23 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
36. Amain I say to you that all these things will come upon this generation.
37. Urishlim! Urishlim!
Murderess of the nabia [prophets]
and stoner of those that are sent to her!
How often I have desired to gather your children
like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and (you) did not desire (it)!
38. Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

Lk 23
27. And a multitude of people was coming after him, and women who were wailing and mourning for him. 28. And Yeshua turned and said to them,
"Daughters of Urishlim,
do not cry for me,
but cry for yourselves
and for your children.
29. For behold the days are coming in which they will say,
Blessed are the barren
and the wombs that have not given birth
and the breasts that have not nursed.'
30. Then you will begin to say to the mountains,
Fall upon us!'
and to the heights,
Cover us!'
31. For if to the green wood they do these things,
what will happen to the dry?"

The Feminine Imagery of God in the Hebrew Bible
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/priscilla-papers/feminine-imagery-god-hebrew-bible
The Hebrews emphasized the ruach Elohim, identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Then even later in the Wisdom literature, including Proverbs and the apocryphal books of Wisdom and Sirach, this holy spirit of God was identified with Lady Wisdom (Prov. 1:20-22; 8:1-9:6; Wis. 1:6-7, 6:22-25).
In summary, in the first two verses of Genesis there is a parallel construction between the masculine and feminine. In the first verse, God, Elohim, creates the heavens and the earth. The noun is masculine and the verb ending is masculine. In the second verse, the ruach Elohim m'reche-phet, the spirit of God hovers. The noun, spirit or breath or wind, is feminine, and the verb ending is feminine. This ruach Elohim (Gen. 1:2) is identified with the mother eagle of Deuteronomy 32:11. Male and female are in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27). Wisdom is identified as She in the Protestant Book of Proverbs (8:24). The Holy Spirit is identified with the feminine spirit of Wisdom in the Catholic Apocrypha.
....
I am now aware that there are many passages concerning God in the Hebrew describing God in maternal and feminine metaphor, including Deuteronomy 32:18b, where God groans and gives birth in an image of a woman in labor. My foundational concept of the feminine in God is in Genesis in the introduction, where God is described with both masculine and feminine nouns and verbs, as Elohim and ruach Elohim. I now have this awesome certitude that, as a woman, I have been defined in the Hebrew Scripture as made in the image and likeness of God.

Yes, I don't want to get into a discussion about this right now I'm short of time. Nevertheless, you have posted some characteristics that are difficult for the argument for many reasons.

At the moment I just want to know if you take the main point that the universe is somehow made out of God since there is nothing else from which it could come?

[GodIsLove]

GIL claimed that God made the universe (all life) from Himself. You asked for references and then GIL replied and said she didn't have the sources. But quoted John 1 all the same. I personally think it is pretty obvious that God created the universe from Himself. I though about it quite a bit recently because it speaks to modern issues on the question of the nature of gender.

"for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17)

"but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Hebrews 1:2-3)

Obviously if you are of the group that doesn't believe Jesus is God you might not be able to read these passages that way. But then you'll already be having problems because if all thing are made through a being that is not God then what has God got to do with the universe?

The also have the problem of Revelation 4:

""Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created." (Revelation 4:11)

At this point you now have to explain, if you don't believe Jesus is God, how He is worthy to receive things only God is really entitled to and is clearly identified as God. Of course, you many think that shouldn't be there though but most of the deity of Jesus doubters obviously think it should.

You ask if God fills fallen angels:

'Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)' (Ephesians 4:8-10)

If the fallen angels qualify as 'things' (which they clearly do) then the answer to your question is 'yes, God fills fallen angels.'

Now here is the question: what is gender?

The Bible teaches the God made man (meaning male and female) in His image and after His likeness. The difference between these two words is oft disputed but it suggest at least that man is not a completely original thing and this creates a logical problem for the question of gender.

Because let's say a man is, in principle, entirely like God. If God were actually male as has been traditionally believed. The characteristics of the male gender (whatever they may be) are the characteristics of God. So then what are the characteristics of the female gender? Because they're clearly not the complete antithesis of the characteristics of God are they or else all women would have to be utterly evil which obviously isn't the case despite what some want to believe.

So gender is not an antithetic state but more likely a different balancing of the same characteristics. All of which God has in some form. So what is the balance. While there's some reason to believe there is one historical prejudice makes it harder to identify what it actually is.

So why is that pertinent to the question of whether or not God created the universe out of Himself. It's because He must have done as there was nothing else He could have created it from. Everything in the universe is something God chose to create an idea He had. We have ideas about things that God did not choose to create so, consequentially, these things don't really exist in the world. But everything that God created comes from Himself, He conceived it from His character and according to His will He made it. There is nothing that exist that is alien to God, nothing made that isn't somehow part of His design conforming to what He wanted  to make out of His imagination. The universe can contain nothing that does not have God as its source, if it did God would be overthrown. That is the meaning behind the opening words of the Bible: "In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth." There is nothing God did not make and nothing that does not have God at its source. This is so fundamental only atheists question it. GIL think she has no sources. Every word of the Bible is her source.

Thanks CST, I appreciate the additional verses you shared. I guess I meant that one can't really prove much of anything because things tend to be up to interpretation, while we all think we are being objective, different people come to different conclusions given the same information so I can't "prove" anything to anyone.

But I do believe that God fills heaven and earth and all that is in it, and I think that belief lends itself to UR as well.

[GodIsLove]

Isn't God also in Hebrew mean breasted one or something?

Michael L. Brown, "No, El Shaddai Does Not Mean 'God With Breasts'" (Feb 8, 2018)
https://askdrbrown.org/library/no-el-shaddai-does-not-mean-'god-breasts'
But there's more. "Calkins read from Genesis Chapter 17, in which God tells Abraham 'I am El Shaddai.' She said that if Episcopalians 'are going to be true to what El Shaddai means, it means God with breasts.'" Yes, the God of Israel is a fertility deity with breasts!  ....Calkins is not the first to make this claim, and I've even heard it in some evangelical circles, where it was taught that God as the "many breasted one" spoke of God as Provider.
But there's not a stitch of scholarly evidence to support this, and I can state that with authority. Not only is my Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University, but I specialized in comparative Semitic lexicography (meaning, understanding dictionary definitions of words in light of the comparative ancient languages).

My doctoral dissertation focused on one Hebrew word (in light of its ancient Near Eastern background), and I own every major Hebrew lexicon and theological encyclopedia. Every single one of them rejects the idea that El Shaddai means "God of (many) breasts." (I even did a short Facebook video, with a large pile of these books in hand, to demonstrate the point.)
It's possible that the name Shaddai is related to an ancient Akkadian word for "mountain," hence depicting God as a Rock, a common scriptural image speaking of power. (Akkadian refers to the language of the Babylonians and Assyrians.) But this is far from certain.
What we do know is that the ancient biblical translators commonly rendered Shaddai with "Almighty," and they likely had a good reason for it. As for the idea that the God of Israel, who identified Himself with male pronouns and used masculine verbs, was depicted as a many-breasted female fertility deity, they would have found the idea blasphemous. So should we.

the Apocrypha. What do you think of that?

The 1611 King James translated the Apocrypha and printed it as a section between the OT and NT.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Apocrypha-Books/
The material is interesting, esp. Ecclesiasticus i.e. Sirach. 
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ecclesiasticus-Chapter-1/
If memory serves correct, Baruch has what seemed to me to be Messianic prophecies about Jesus.

The Septuagint has the Apocrypha, so I'd say the Apocrypha belongs in the Bible.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/

I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

[GodIsLove]

Re: God and male/female:

Genesis:
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

So IMO God is both, as we are both made in His image.

[MusicLover123]

I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

Maybe you could do that? One of the interesting things to me is how some of the Apocrypha was in the Qumram/Dead Sea Scrolls.

When younger, I remember the Protestant church saying it should not be included because it includes things like Praying for the dead, etc. I feel a bit different(not 100% yet) on that issue, so it is a bit different for me now.

I've only really read what David put(Ecclesiasticus 1) but I find it interesting on the discussion of Wisdom, how it seems related to how God brought forth Wisdom before the depths in Proverbs 8. Unsure if it is just made up or actually inspired. Just want to be lead by God and not lead away, so just being careful.

[GodIsLove]

I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

Maybe you could do that? One of the interesting things to me is how some of the Apocrypha was in the Qumram/Dead Sea Scrolls.

When younger, I remember the Protestant church saying it should not be included because it includes things like Praying for the dead, etc. I feel a bit different(not 100% yet) on that issue, so it is a bit different for me now.

I've only really read what David put(Ecclesiasticus 1) but I find it interesting on the discussion of Wisdom, how it seems related to how God brought forth Wisdom before the depths in Proverbs 8. Unsure if it is just made up or actually inspired. Just want to be lead by God and not lead away, so just being careful.

We could start a thread, I don't have time now but I felt moved to post way back when u posted something about the number of books in the Bible, but I got lazy or something and didn't.

[DavidFord]

....the Apocrypha.... When younger, I remember the Protestant church saying it should not be included because it includes things like Praying for the dead, etc. .... Just want to be lead by God and not lead away, so just being careful.

1 Thess 5:21 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians+5:20-22&version=NABRE
Test everything; retain what is good.

1 Cor 15:29
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+15:28-30&version=NABRE
Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead?  If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?
Footnote:  15:29 Baptized for the dead: this practice is not further explained here, nor is it necessarily mentioned with approval, but Paul cites it as something in their experience that attests in one more way to belief in the resurrection.

[DavidFord]

want to know if you take the main point that the universe is somehow made out of God since there is nothing else from which it could come?

I agree with what's below.

John 1 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1&version=NABRE
1 In the beginning was the Word,
    and the Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.
2 He [Jesus] was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came to be through him,
    and without him nothing came to be. ....

Col 1
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1&version=NABRE
15 He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God,
    the firstborn of all creation.
16 For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth,
    the visible and the invisible,
    whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;
    all things were created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things,
    and in him all things hold together.

Hebr 11:3 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11%3A3&version=NKJV
By faith we understand that the [a]worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Footnote:  Or ages, Gr. aiones, aeons

[CST]

Thanks CST, I appreciate the additional verses you shared. I guess I meant that one can't really prove much of anything because things tend to be up to interpretation, while we all think we are being objective, different people come to different conclusions given the same information so I can't "prove" anything to anyone.

But I do believe that God fills heaven and earth and all that is in it, and I think that belief lends itself to UR as well.

That's generally true but the problem i find with that is if you can't prove anything from the Bible, what's the point of the Bible?

I also think the apocrypha belongs in the Bible but that's a fairly in-depth discussion.

As I understand, the primary reason Protestants reject the Apocrypha is that Jews reject the Apocrypha.

[darryl]

Ah, but as Rob Bell asks, 'Does God always get what he wants?'  I bet God is so brilliant that he can give angels and humans free will, and still get what he ultimately wants.[/font][/size]

Agreed !...of course He does !...Romans 5 tells us God WILL ultimately save ALL.