Gehenna and Sheol in the Aramaic NT

[DavidFord]

The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek. 
Using the Peshi+ta tool at dukhrana.com

Gehenna
verses that contains lexeme 1:525 ܓܗܢܐ
Mt 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33; Mk 9:43, 9:45, 9:47; Lk 12:5

Sheol
verses that contains lexeme 1:3180 ܫܝܘܠ
Mt 11:23, 16:18; Lk 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:24, 2:27, 2:31; Rom 10:7; 1Cor 15:55; 1Peter 3:19; Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 20:14

Tehuma (Abyss, bottomless pit)
verses that contains lexeme 1:3363 ܬܗܘܡܐ
Luke 8:31; Rom 10:7; Rev 9:1, 9:11, 20:1, 20:3

aimtana (darkness, obscurity, mist)
verses that contains lexeme 1:2347 ܥܡܛܢܐ
Acts 2:20, 13:11; 2Peter 2:4, 2:17; Jude 1:6, 1:13

hesuka (dark, darkness)
verses that contains lexeme 1:1178 ܚܫܘܟܐ
Mt 4:16, 6:23, 8:12, 10:27, 22:13, 25:30, 27:45
Mark 15:33
Luke 1:79, 11:34, 11:35, 11:36, 12:3, 22:53, 23:44, 24:1
John 1:5, 3:19, 8:12, 12:35, 12:46, 20:1; Acts 13:11, 26:18
Romans 2:19, 13:12
1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 4:6, 6:14; Eph 4:18, 5:8, 5:11, 6:12
Col 1:13; 1Thess 5:4, 5:5; Hebr 12:18; 1Peter 2:9; 2Peter 2:17
1Jn 1:5, 1:6; 1Jn 2:8, 2:9, 2:11; Jude 1:13; Rev 16:10

airpela (mist, gloom, blackness)
verses that contains lexeme 1:2419 ܥܪܦܠܐ
Hebr 12:18

[DavidFord]

The NT was originally written in Aramaic before being translated into Greek.
Three instances where l'ailm [to the world/age] clearly don't mean 'forever' are:
Rom 16:25 (mystery kept secret 'forever' but now revealed).
Jude 1:7 (Sodom and Gomorrah underwent a punishment of 'eternal' fire), and
Phil 1:15 (you have gotten Philemon back 'forever').

[marie glen]

Very good studies! I will come back tomorrow and read these again.. One thing I cannot seem to often remember is whether it is four words were translated to read 'hell' or five.. And I can only ever remember Sheol and Gehenna..

I wonder about "hades" in the letters.. some being written to gentiles..

The NT was originally written in Aramaic before being translated into Greek.
Three instances where l'ailm [to the world/age] clearly don't mean 'forever' are:
Rom 16:25 (mystery kept secret 'forever' but now revealed).
Jude 1:7 (Sodom and Gomorrah underwent a punishment of 'eternal' fire), and
Phil 1:15 (you have gotten Philemon back 'forever').

:thumbsup: I definitely have to come back and take note of these verses :thumbsup:

And Jude's example of 'eternal' fire, I've always thought, so where are the flames if its the fire that's forever? No flames over there now.. just hills of dust and ashes.. a forever lesson..

Great studies!

[DavidFord]

I will come back tomorrow and read these again

Sounds great.

Aramaic verses that contains lexeme 1:3386 which means "low," from the Peshi++a Tool at http://dukhrana.com
Mark 6:11, Ephesians 4:9, 2Peter 2:4

Mark 6:11, translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) ....beat off the dust that is beneath your feet....
(Murdock) ....shake off the dust that is under your feet....
(Lamsa) ....shake off the sand under your feet....

Ephesians 4:9-10 translated from Aramaic, https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/ephesians/4.htm
9 But that he ascended, what is it but that also he first descended to the lower regions of The Earth?
10 He who descended is the same who also ascended higher than all Heavens to restore all things.

Ephesians 4:9 translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) But he who ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the low places of the earth ?
(Murdock) Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also previously descended to the interior [regions] of the earth ?
(Lamsa) Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the inner parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) He who descended, is he who also ascended above all the heavens, to fulfil all.
(Murdock) He who descended, is also the same that ascended up, high above all the heavens, that he might fulfill all things.
(Lamsa) So he that descended is the same also that ascended far above all heavens, that he might fulfil all things.

2Peter 2:4 translated from Aramaic
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*,

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

[DavidFord]

Which is prettier:  translated from Greek, or from Aramaic?:

Hebrews 12:3 (NKJV)
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

Hebrews 12:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/hebrews/12.htm
Behold, therefore, how much he endured from sinners,
those who were themselves opponents to their own souls,
so that you do not become careless in yourselves,
neither weaken your souls.

Hebrews 12:3, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Consider, therefore, how much he endured from sinners
who were adversaries to themselves,
that ye weary not,
nor fail in your souls.
(Murdock) Behold, therefore, how much he suffered from sinners,
from them who are adversaries of their own soul,
that ye may not be discouraged,
nor your soul become remiss.

[GodIsLove]

Which is prettier:  translated from Greek, or from Aramaic?:

Hebrews 12:3 (NKJV)
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

Hebrews 12:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/hebrews/12.htm
Behold, therefore, how much he endured from sinners,
those who were themselves opponents to their own souls,
so that you do not become careless in yourselves,
neither weaken your souls.

Hebrews 12:3, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Consider, therefore, how much he endured from sinners
who were adversaries to themselves,
that ye weary not,
nor fail in your souls.
(Murdock) Behold, therefore, how much he suffered from sinners,
from them who are adversaries of their own soul,
that ye may not be discouraged,
nor your soul become remiss.

Interesting, the meanings are so different.

I'll assume you have taken lots of time to study all this, you seem to know a fair amount about the translation differences.

Can you provide a big picture post? You keep dropping tidbits here and there—what in your opinion are the key translation differences, what is the implication of the translation differences, and how does it all relate to UR.

[DavidFord]

"Interesting, the meanings are so different"

Yes, the Greek manuscripts lack the line "those who were themselves opponents to their own souls," and lack the Semitic poetry of saying something, and then saying it again with a twist.

Matthew 7:6 The Passion Translation (TPT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A6-8&version=TPT
"Who would hang earrings on a dog's ear
or throw pearls in front of wild pigs?
They'll only trample them under their feet
and then turn around and tear you to pieces!
Footnotes:
Matthew 7:6 As translated from the Aramaic. The Greek is "Don't let the dogs have consecrated [holy] meat." The Aramaic word for "earrings" is almost identical to the word for "holy." Earrings and pearls are symbols of spiritual truths given to us by God. They give us beautiful "ears" to hear his voice and impart lovely pearls of wisdom, which are not to be regarded lightly or shared with those who have their hearts closed. The Aramaic word for "throw" is almost identical to the word for "to instruct" or "to teach." The value of wisdom is not appreciated by those who have no ears to hear it.

"Can you provide a big picture post?"
I don't yet know the big picture.

"what in your opinion are the key translation differences, what is the implication of the translation differences, and how does it all relate to UR"
Things are lost in translations-- always.  The Assyrian Church of the East has been very diligent in its transmission of the Peshi++a through the centuries, while the Greek manuscripts have been in comparison sloppily copied through the years, resulting in many variants, and some additions.
If the NT was originally in Aramaic, and if there exists today a reliable text of the Aramaic NT, then it can be studied on UR matters in conjunction with the Hebrew OT, since Aramaic is a sister language of Hebrew.

[DavidFord]

the meanings are so different

Here's another instance where the Peshi++a has material absent in Greek manuscripts:

Rom 15:7 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+15%3A7&version=NKJV
Therefore receive one another,
just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God.

Compare:

Rom 15:7, translated from Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com/
(Etheridge) Therefore, receive and bear with one another,
as also the Meshiha hath received you, to the glory of Aloha.
(Murdock) Wherefore, receive ye and bear up one another,
as also Messiah received you, to the glory of God.
(Lamsa) Therefore be close and bear one another's burdens,
just as Christ also brought you close to the glory of God.

Rom 15:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/15.htm
Because of this, you shall accept and bear with one another,
just as also The Messiah has accepted you for the glory of God.

Rom 15:7 (Aramaic Peshi++a NT)   
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
Because of this, draw near to and bear up each other,
as also Christ has drawn near to you for the glory of God.

[CST]

Which is prettier:  translated from Greek, or from Aramaic?:

Hebrews 12:3 (NKJV)
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself,
lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

Hebrews 12:3 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/hebrews/12.htm
Behold, therefore, how much he endured from sinners,
those who were themselves opponents to their own souls,
so that you do not become careless in yourselves,
neither weaken your souls.

Hebrews 12:3, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Consider, therefore, how much he endured from sinners
who were adversaries to themselves,
that ye weary not,
nor fail in your souls.
(Murdock) Behold, therefore, how much he suffered from sinners,
from them who are adversaries of their own soul,
that ye may not be discouraged,
nor your soul become remiss.

Interesting, the meanings are so different.

I'll assume you have taken lots of time to study all this, you seem to know a fair amount about the translation differences.

Can you provide a big picture post? You keep dropping tidbits here and there—what in your opinion are the key translation differences, what is the implication of the translation differences, and how does it all relate to UR.

GIL, do not be deceived. It may be possible that the Greek NT was translated from an Aramaic version. It seems unlikely however for the following reasons:

1. So many Greek manuscripts contain things that do not turn up in other versions. This seems an unlikely turn of events if the Greek version were all translated from previous Aramaic texts.

2. Because of similarity of content in many elements of the synoptic gospels particularly, Biblical scholars have postulated a separate, earlier document, of quotations of Jesus as an earlier source for all those gospels. That would require Q to be in Aramaic (possible) then written into Aramaic versions of the gospels and then translated again into the Greek versions we all receive our text from.

3. The epistles of Paul. The epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin. There would be no reason to write them first in Aramaic as their audience wouldn't understand them.

What is true is that whether or not any of the New Testament epistles were written in Aramaic we haven't got any surviving record of any. Whatever we have here is speculation over what the Aramaic might originally have been.

[DavidFord]

So many Greek manuscripts contain things that do not turn up in other versions.

In what languages are 3 of those "other versions"?
Do you think John 7:53–8:11 was part of the original John?

New American Bible (Revised Edition)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+8&version=NABRE
7:53–8:11 The story of the woman caught in adultery is a later insertion here, missing from all early Greek manuscripts. A Western text-type insertion, attested mainly in Old Latin translations, it is found in different places in different manuscripts: here, or after Jn 7:36 or at the end of this gospel, or after Lk 21:38, or at the end of that gospel. There are many non-Johannine features in the language, and there are also many doubtful readings within the passage. The style and motifs are similar to those of Luke, and it fits better with the general situation at the end of Lk 21, but it was probably inserted here because of the allusion to Jer 17:13 (cf. note on Jn 8:6) and the statement, "I do not judge anyone," in Jn 8:15. The Catholic Church accepts this passage as canonical scripture.

"The epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin."
3 illustrations in support of the claim that those "Christian communities" "first language was clearly either Greek or Latin"?
Do you think Paul's mentions of "bowels" is something that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

search for "bowels" on KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=bowels&begin=47&end=73
2 Corinthians 6:12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
Philippians 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Philemon 1:12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:
Philemon 1:20 Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels in the Lord.
1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

"whether or not any of the New Testament epistles were written in Aramaic we haven't got any surviving record of any"
The 4 gospels existed in Aramaic at the latest as of A.D. 175 (the year of Tatian's death). We presently have a surviving translation from that Aramaic into Arabic.
The Assyrian Church of the East has been faithfully and carefully recopying the Aramaic NT books they received since they received them in Aramaic.

[DavidFord]

The epistles of Paul where clearly written, as can be understood from their content, to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin.

Do you think Paul's mentions of "heart" and "eyeservice" and "the eyes of your heart" are things that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

search of KJV for "heart"
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=heart&begin=47&end=73&limit=500

Colossians 3:22
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+3%3A22&version=KJV;MOUNCE
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh;
not with eyeservice [Greek:  ophthalmodoulia], as menpleasers;
but in singleness of heart [Greek:  kardia], fearing God;

Ephesians 6:6
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A6+&version=KJV;MOUNCE
Not with eyeservice [Greek:  ophthalmodoulia],
as menpleasers;
but as the servants of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart [Greek: psyche.  I looked for a Greek manuscript with kardia but didn't find one; did KJV translators use a manuscript having kardia?]

Strong's Concordance 2588. kardia
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/2588.htm

Strong's Concordance 4641. sklerokardia (hardness of heart)
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/4641.htm

Strong's Concordance 2589. kardiognostes (knower of hearts)
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/2589.htm

Ephesians 1:18 (Disciples' Literal New Testament)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph+1%3A18&version=DLNT;MOUNCE
so that you, the eyes [Greek:  ophthalmos] of your heart [Greek:  kardia] having been enlightened,
may know what is the hope of His calling,
what is the riches of the glory of His inheritance among the saints

[marie glen]

I had a Pecrapta Bible once but the word hell was definitely in it.. so I discounted it in favor of other versions., I usually read interlinear when I am not already reasonably certain of a verse's meaning.. And by comparing versions.. especially the Young's Literal and Berean versions, study and one other, which I use on biblehub app and dot com.. which also has an Aramaic version. With the Holy Spirit's guidance I think most seekers can find the intent of God's Spirit in His inspiring of the writing. Commentaries are sometimes very helpful too, but only aFter the verse(s) and cross references..

After 38 years of study.. my biggest questions have been answered, and the only thing I distrust is the allusions to afterlife physical torment and the idea or assumption of inherent immortality..

Which the Old Testament/Hebrew helps a great deal.

For many believers, especially new, I believe modern translations make for more understandable reading.. And I enjoy them myself after being aware of how other versions read. Every once in a while one runs into a KJ only person.. Not even NKJ will suffice to them! But for a new believer, that's veRy cumbersome and doesn't read very smoothly at all. A lot of folks just get the basic message, which I think is ok - minus ET of course!

Language studies as pertains to the Bible can be very interesting. But Truth transcends language.. Mostly I 'worry' about the Et message, as it so greatly insults our Heavenly Father. And, I believe, keeps many folks from being able to believe. Not that I actually "worry"! God is SO able! He just plays hide and seek with mankind to a certain degree.. making us find His true character and attributes.
Just my :2c:
:gsmile:

[DavidFord]

The epistles of Paul where clearly written... to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin

Which makes more sense to you:  Rom 5:7 translated from Greek, or translated from Aramaic?

(KJV) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die:
yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Rom 5:7, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) for hardly for the wicked one dieth;
for on account of the good one may perhaps dare to die.
(Murdock) (for rarely doth one die for the ungodly;
though for the good, some one perhaps might venture to die :)
(Lamsa) Hardly would any man die for the sake of the wicked:
but for the sake of the good, one might be willing to die.

Rom 5:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/5.htm
For a man will hardly die for the sake of the wicked,
however a man perhaps may dare to die for the sake of the good.

Rom 5:7 (Aramaic Peshi++a NT)    
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/scripture-reference-search
(for seldom does anyone die for the ungodly,
although for good [ones] perhaps some would dare to die)

[DavidFord]

to be sent and read to Christian communities whose first language was clearly either Greek or Latin

How about Revelation-- was it written to native speakers of Greek or Latin?
Do you think Rev 2:23's mentions of "kidneys" and "hearts" are things that would be easily understood by a native speaker of:  Greek?  Latin?  Aramaic?  Hebrew?

Rev 2:23 (KJV)
And I will kill her children with death;
and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins [Greek:  nephros] and hearts [Greek:  kardia]:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

search of KJV for "reins"
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=reins&qs_version=KJV&limit=500

Strong's Concordance 3510. nephros
https://biblehub.com/str/greek/3510.htm
nephros: a kidney, fig. the (inmost) mind

[lastpost]

It's helpful, I find, to look at a bigger slice of this contentious but extremely interesting subject which has been debated for a long time! The following is research by someone who uses the Aramaic NT along with the Greek NT so is not a Greek Primacist and is not Aramaic-bashing, just someone attempting to be "intellectually honest"; in my opinion it's a balanced article for someone who is not interested in grinding axes and who wants as unbiased a view on the issue of New Testament translations in as concise a form as possible...

https://torahapologetics.weebly.com/language--word-studies/aramaic-primacy-of-the-new-testament

For instance...

Below is a short list of some of these important Greek words, found contained in the Pes-hitta. These words are transliterated into Aramaic from their Greek origin.

    אונגליון (euwangeiliahn) a transliteration of the Greek εὐαγγελίον (euangelion) meaning "gospel" or "good news." This appears in places such as Mark 1:1.

    אפיסקופא (epiysquwpa) a transliteration of the Greek ἐπίσκοπος (episkopos) meaning "overseer" or "bishop" and is used in Acts 20:28. This is where we derive words such as "episcopal" from. Note that in Greek the same word is used in 1 Tim. 3:2 and Titus 1:7, though in Syriac the word used in those two verses is קשישא (qashiysha). Why would it not use the Syriac word in each instance, if it were not translated from Greek?

    פרקליטא (paraqleeta) is a transliteration of the Greek παράκλητος (parakletos) meaning "comforter" or "advocate." Used in John 14, 15, 16, and 1 John 2:1. This Greek word is derived from two different words: παρα (para) andκαλεω (kaleo) which means "to call close beside." Surely the Syriac language should have its own form of this? Especially if this is a Hebrew / Aramaic concept, simply borrowed by the Greeks.

    פנטקוסטא (penteqosta) is a transliteration of the Greek Πεντηκοστῆς (pentekostes), which literally means "fiftieth." In most Bibles, this appears as "Pentecost." This refers to the Feast of Shavuot, after counting the omer for 50 days. We find it in Acts 2 in the Pes-hitta NT. In the Pes-hitta Tanakh, in Deut. 16:16, where the Hebrew talks about the Feast of Shavuot, the Pes-hitta reads, ובעאדא דשבועא (weba'eda d'shavua) meaning "the feast of weeks." Why, then, does it copy the Greek Pentecost, when the Syriac phrase it much closer to the Hebrew? Why copy the Greek at all, when Syriac has its own word for this?

    תרנוס (tranaws) is a transliteration of the Greek θρονος (thronos) meaning "throne" as is found in Matthew 19:28. However, the second time the Greek uses thronos in Matthew 19:28, the Syriac uses כורסון (koowrsown) which is the Syriac word for seat or chair.


There are numerous other examples, these are just a few of the more important ones.

There are other helpful articles that offer slightly different approaches, but the point is that the Aramaic Primacy theory is definitely not proven in my opinion...


Peace...

[marie glen]

Tehuma (Abyss, bottomless pit)
verses that contains lexeme 1:3363 ܬܗܘܡܐ
Luke 8:31; Rom 10:7; Rev 9:1, 9:11, 20:1, 20:3

Comparing Romans 10:7 with Revelation 9:1 makes me think they are not exactly the same thing in the two verses..

Romans 10:7 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
7 or, `Who shall go down to the abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to bring up.

Revelation 9:1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9 And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen to the earth, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss..

Interesting.. never noticed that before..

Sheol
verses that contains lexeme 1:3180 ܫܝܘܠ
Mt 11:23, 16:18; Lk 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:24, 2:27, 2:31; Rom 10:7; 1Cor 15:55; 1Peter 3:19; Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 20:14

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Mt 11:23:
And you Kapernahum, which have been exalted unto Heaven, you will descend unto Sheol, for if the mighty works had been done in Sadom, which have been done in you, it would have remained until today.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Acts 2:24:
"But God raised him and he destroyed the destructions of Sheol because it was not possible for him to be held captive in Sheol."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - 1 Cor. 15:55
Where is your sting, oh death? Where is your victory, oh, Sheol?
----- Young's Literal Translation
where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

:Chinscratch: maybe I should get myself an Aramaic in Plain English New Testament, As I personally would prefer to read sheol than Hades..  Though Paul, I'm thinking likely used hades, as in Paul's letter to gentile Corinthian believers. Hades is so misleading, imo.. Although.. "place of the dead" (imo) is still "the grave" -
As in:
Ecclesiastes 9:10 -  Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm
no work/deed
no device/reckoning/accounting - reasoning?
no wisdom
no knowledge - knowing?

No doing, no thought?

And as we know "all meet in sheol"..

:Chinscratch:

dang it! gotta run..

[DavidFord]

The epistles of Paul

For 1 Cor 13:3, do you think it originally had:  "burned" (i.e., kauthēsomai)?  "glory/boast" (i.e., kauchēsōmai)?

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-corinthians-13
NASB, NKJV, TEV, NJB "my body to be burned"
NRSV "my body so that I may boast"
There are two manuscript options: "burned" (i.e., kauthēsomai) and "glory" (i.e., kauchēsōmai) are both found in early Greek manuscripts and the early church fathers. The phrase, "that I may glory," has the strongest manuscript support (i.e., MSS P46, א, and B), but UBS4 is unable to make a decision between them. It is also a term used often by Paul (cf. II Cor. 8:24; Phil. 2:16; I Thess. 2:19; II Thess. 1:4). Martyrdom by burning was unknown in the early church, but became more common in later persecutions (i.e., Nero and Domitian). Therefore, one can see how a later scribe might have changed "glory" to "burn."

kauchaomai
https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/kauchaomai
to boast, brag about; to rejoice in, glory in; this can refer to proper or improper boasting, depending on the object of the boast

[marie glen]

I once wondered did the state of death change after Jesus, seeing as Sheol became Hades.. a more mysterious perception of death.. But upon more thought, think Jesus surely (?) spoke Aramaic, so He would have used Sheol.. and the later letters (to gentile 'churches') the Greek, I think, was likely used, and hades would simply be the logical replacement.. Most UR believers I think are aware of the descrepwncies between for ever and aion, and the translating of words (4? 5?) into the horrible translation of 'hell' :eek:

[DavidFord]

the Aramaic Primacy theory is definitely not proven in my opinion

In your view, what are the 3 strongest lines of evidence in support of the theory that the NT was originally in Greek?
What's your explanation of Paul using Aramaic in a letter some allege was originally written in Greek to Greek-speakers?

1 Cor 16:22 The Passion Translation
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+16:22&version=TPT
If anyone doesn't sincerely love the Lord,
he deserves to be doomed as an outcast. 
Our Lord has come!
b: Or "Maranatha!" This is an Aramaic word that can be translated in two ways, "Come, our Lord" or "Our Lord has come."

Strong's Concordance 3134. marana tha
https://biblehub.com/greek/3134.htm
marana tha: (our) Lord, come!
Original Word: μαρὰν ἀθά
Part of Speech: Aramaic Transliterated Word (Indeclinable)
Transliteration: marana tha
Phonetic Spelling: (mar'-an ath'-ah)
Short Definition: our Lord cometh
Definition: (Aramaic), either: Our Lord hath come, or: Our Lord cometh (will come, is at hand).
HELPS Word-studies
3134 marán athá (marán athá) – "Maranatha," an Aramaic term derived from two roots which literally mean, "Our Lord has come" (perfect tense in Aramaic, emphasizing the lingering results involved).

[DavidFord]

פרקליטא (paraqleeta) is a transliteration of the Greek παράκλητος (parakletos) meaning "comforter" or "advocate." Used in John 14, 15, 16, and 1 John 2:1. This Greek word is derived from two different words: παρα (para) andκαλεω (kaleo) which means "to call close beside." Surely the Syriac language should have its own form of this? Especially if this is a Hebrew / Aramaic concept, simply borrowed by the Greeks.

Prqlta: Redeemer. It appears in the Aramaic NT at John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, & 16:7, and 1 John 2:1. Paul Younan of peshi tta.org comments that,
"PRQLTA has been confused with the Greek 'Paraclitus,' meaning 'Advocate.' The Aramaic construct PRQLTA is derived from two Aramaic roots: PRQ ('to end', 'to finish' or 'to save', see Strong's Concordance entries 6561 and 6562) and LTA ('the curse' cf. Mk 11:21, Mt 5:44, _A Compendious Syriac Dictionary_, page 236, and _Oraham's Dictionary_, page 250). PRQLTA means 'Redeemer' or 'One who ends the curse.' By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, our fallen nature has been redeemed from the curse of Adam."
The book __Khabouris Manuscript_ page 85 says the word 'paracleta' is
"either a Greek or Persian term. If Persian, it is paric plus leta. Paric in Persian is break loose, break away. Leta means the curse of, effects of error or sin. Thus the combination is rendered 'that which breaks off the effects of sin.'"

Yonan Codex Foundation. 1993. _Khabouris Manuscript: Enlightenment from the Aramaic: Selected Passages from The Khabouris Manuscript An Ancient Text of the Syriac New Testament_. (USA: FHU), 98pp.

[lastpost]

Friend, if you look at what I have written I am not speaking of "three strongest lines of evidence" - I am speaking of looking at the bigger picture ("bigger slice"), and that article I posted is but one example of what I consider to be a balanced and unbiased view by one not seeking to "prove" their translation is the correct one - I am not interested in continuously swapping "three strongest lines of evidence" but what the overall picture, from studies, tells me personally, and I have stated what that is. I have been and still am satisfied, personally, that the Aramaic Primacy theory is definitely not proven. That of course is my opinion.

[lastpost]

Incidentally, it works both ways: those translating from Greek to Aramaic might have changed the Greek to something they think it ought to be because they didn't think it was correct in the first place (the same with the famous leper/potter issue)...


John 14:16
"And I will beg the Father, and he will give you (ἄλλον) another Comforter/ Helper, that he may be with you for ever"

"And I will beg the Father, and he will give you (ἄλλον) another One who ends the curse, that he may be with you for ever"


"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, (for it is written, Cursed [is] every one hanged upon a tree,)"

It is Christ Himself who is the Saviour and I take Him at His word. I believe this...

"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25–26)


Peace and again Peace in Him!

[marie glen]

I find this interesting ..though I've been partly skimmming the thread, well the later threads and working on reading the opening post.. I find this interesting in that the way I'm thinking of it is a sort of backwards translation into how it would read in the Aramaic, given how it's all Hebrew ideas on a Hebrew foundation.

I've long thought it's possible three of the gospels were written in Aramaic.. that's assuming Mark is the scribe that went with Paul and Barnabas on that first journey, and I believe he is - and Luke was a Greek physician. Matthew and John of course being of Israel for sure. [Though I read today some doubts about John's gospel, but it sure sounds like John to me! Rabble Rousers!]

But I'm also thinking most of the letters may have very well been written in the Greek, to gentile 'churches', so it's like translated, or traced back into how it would have read, if written in the Aramaic..  Those conclusions/teachings in their (more) native language.

I say more native as I know Israel used Hebrew.. and I have no idea how close or how far removed the Hebrew is to the Aramaic.. (and vice versa).

I know Jesus spoke to Paul in Aramaic when stopping him on the road to Damascus, Acts 26:14. (So to me, the ideas/teaching/doctrine(s) are still Hebrew.)

It says Paul made his defense, in Jerusalem, to the crowd in Aramaic, Acts 22:2.
Although the interlinear says it was Hebrew - :mshock: - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/22-2.htm

:Chinscratch: I wonder about Acts 26:14, Jesus speaking to Paul in the bright light - Yep, "Hebrais / Hebraidi" (Hebrew dialect of the Aramaic of the (Middle East/Babylon/Persia?) region. - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/26-14.htm

Well. That's interesting. Maybe Hebrew at the time wasn't as unused a language as thought.

           :Peace2:

[DavidFord]

I had a.... Bible once but the word hell was definitely in it.. so I discounted it in favor of other versions

The Aramaic Peshi++a uses "Sheol."  If you see "hell" in a translation from Aramaic, the underlying Aramaic is either "Sheol" or "Gehenna."  Searching KJV for "hell" shows that Janet Magiera's translation from Aramaic uses "Sheol" or "Gehenna."
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/english-word-search
As does Etheridge's and Younan's translations.
http://dukhrana.com
And Bauscher's.
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/

[DavidFord]

those translating from Greek to Aramaic might have changed the Greek to something they think it ought to be because they didn't think it was correct in the first place (the same with the famous leper/potter issue)...

In the Aramaic Pes-hitta, Mt's rendition of the Lord's Prayer has much rhyming.  The Aramaic Lk's version has less rhyming. The Greek versions lack rhyming.  Do you think that it's possible that someone translated a non-rhyming Greek Lord's Prayer into a rhyming Aramaic Lord's Prayer?

A transliteration of the Aramaic Mt 6:9-13:
Ah-woon ** our Father
d'wash-may-ya ** in heaven
============================
nith-qad-dash shmakh ** holy be Your name
teh'-theh' ** come
mal-koo-thakh ** Your kingdom
neh-weh ** be done
tsow-ya-nakh ** Your will
============================
ay-kan-na ** as
d'wash-may-ya ** in heaven
ap b'ar-aa ** so on earth.
11 ============================
haw lan ** give us
lakh-ma ** the bread
d'son-qa-nan ** of our need
yo-ma-na ** this day
12 ============================
ow'shwoq lan ** and forgive us
khow-beyn ** our offences
ay-kan-na d'ap kha-nan ** as also we
shwa-qan ** have forgiven
l'khay-ya-wen ** those who have offended us
13 ============================
ow'la ** and not
ta'-lan ** bring us
l'nis-you-na ** into trial
al-la pas-san ** but deliver us
min bee-sha ** from the evil one
============================
modt-dtil d'dee-lak ** for of yours
hee mal-koo-tha ** is the Kingdom
ow'khay-la ** and the power
ow'tish-bokh-tha ** and the glory
l'al-um ail-meen. ** to the age of ages, or:  to the world of worlds

What do you think is more poetic:  the Lord's Prayer
a) in Greek, or
b) in the Mt 6 Aramaic?

Mt 6:10's "as" uses the letters "aikna," while Lk 11:2s "as" uses "aik."  Also, Mt 6:11 uses "yomna"-- this day, daily-- while Lk 11:3 instead uses "klium"-- every day, daily. Hence, in at least 2 places, the Luke version means the same, but has less-perfect rhyming compared with the Matthew version.  In my opinion, Yeshua-- God incarnate-- gave a model prayer with superb rhyming recorded in the Aramaic Mt 6.  The Lk 11 rendition means the same, but has less rhyming and fewer of Yeshua's original words, besides lacking "for of yours is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, l'ailm-ailmin."