Fallen asleep in Christ??

[Forest]

So I'm fairly new to the actual biblical theology on UR.

Today, I was reading 1 Corinthians 15, and something caught my eye:

"17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ's, at his coming. "

This is kind of a multi-part question.
1. Those who have fallen asleep in Christ are usually seen to be believers. However, I wonder if this could possibly be unbelievers? Those who are dead in Christ/spiritually dead. I only wonder this because of the verses following it. "He became the firstfruit of those who are asleep [dead]" and "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." All are asleep in Adam, spiritually, all are dead until Christ makes them alive.

2. "Each in his own order... those who are Christ's." I always took this to mean, as many outside of UR do, Christ first and then believers and then that's all. But the verses following talk of ruling until all enemies are under His feet, which says to me there's a "step" missing here. Today I wondered, "those who are Christ's" must mean the "all things." (Noted: it does say reign until all things are subjected to Him, but stay with me). All things are created by and through and for Christ according to Scripture, so "those who are Christ's" must mean all people. And the enemies that these verses talk about seems to me to be ideas rather than actual people: authority, rule, power, and even death.

I may be way off in my ideas here, so some insight would be greatly appreciated. I know this is one of the passages/chapters widely used by UR, so I want to get a good understanding of it.
Thank you!!

[Ross]

G'day Forest;

1 John 3;14,15 " We know that we have crossed over FROM death TO life because we love the brothers.
                          Whoever does not love REMAINS in the realm of death.
                         Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionis life."

1 John 4;7 " Dear friends, let us love one another because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God
                   and knows God."

1 John 4;12 " No one has ever seen God.
                    If we love one another  God lives in us and His love has achieved its goal in us."

1. Those who have fallen asleep in Christ are usually seen to be believers. However, I wonder if this could possibly be unbelievers?

I.M.O this seems to be spoken of by John and Paul. So seems to be, like you say, that all mankind, which is going to be saved, is asleep now, but will be wakened at their appointed time.

2.  All things are created by and through and for Christ according to Scripture, so "those who are Christ's" must mean all people.
And the enemies that these verses talk about seems to me to be ideas rather than actual people: authority, rule, power, and even death.

First fruits are just ripened before the rest, but ALL ripen individually as they are nourished and seasoned.
Just like in our family we all wake at different times, but we all wake, those who are called to waken by God will be the first ones, then the rest follow as the plan extends to the next ages to come.
Also differentiates between the spirit of life and the holy spirit we have/become through Christ.
1 Cor 15 explains all that difference .

And the enemies that these verses talk about seems to me to be ideas rather than actual people: authority, rule, power, and even death.

1 Cor 15;54 " So when this perishable puts on imperishability, and this mortal puts on immortality,
                    THEN the saying that is written WILL BE FULFILLED;
                                                                                                ' Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Romans 8;38,39 " FOR I AM CONVINCED the neither life nor death, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come,
                           nor powers, nor height, nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING,
                          will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

So, to me, seems you are perceiving the love that we learn through experience to gain wisdom as to what true love actually is by God's standard, not mankinds'.
Perfect love casts out ALL fear.


           

[eaglesway]

 :goodpost:  :iagree:

[Forest]

I don't know why my reply didn't post, but thanks very much Ross!! I really appreciate your insight and help!

[rosered]

  Lovely post Bro Ross    :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup:

I always think of the parable "the kingdom of heaven is like a woman working leaven into three measures of meal". Or loaves.. Which seems to go so perfectly with those verses in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: [1]Christ the firstfruits, afterward [2]those who are Christ's at His coming. "...in a moment.. in the twinkling of an eye.. the trumpet will sound.. ..for this perishable must (dei - #G1163: it is necessary) put on imperishable and this mortal to put on immortality.."24 Then [3]comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.[/i] (25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him) that God may be all in all.

..the time comes when all who sleep will hear His voice and will come forth--those having done good to the resurrection of life (...in a moment.. in the twinkling of an eye..) and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment (2920. krisis ► a decision, judgment) (The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years have been completed - Rev 20:5)

The resurrection of "judgment" - Judgment 'Day' / Age? "Every knee shall bend.. every tongue confess.."(Romans 14:11; Phil 2;10,11; Is 45:23).."all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations will worship before Him.." (Psalm 22:27)

...Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father..

Revelation 21 -  1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth.. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

:dsunny: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

P.S - I was reading this verse today.. which seems to fit here. I like the way the biblehub interlinear says it - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/2-7.htm

And other verses in the chapter.. "we were all dead (and subject to death, lifeless) but He raised us up and seated us (assigned us?) in Heavenly realms with Jesus  ..that He might show in the ages that are coming, the surpassing riches of the grace of Him.." ..not of one's self.. not of works, but of His Spirit.. that none may boast..

[Ross]

"we were all dead (and subject to death, lifeless)

That lovely "past tense" thing.
Being feed has put me "past" being "tense".

...Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father..

What a beautiful ending!!

[rosered]

P.S - I was reading this verse today.. which seems to fit here. I like the way the biblehub interlinear says it - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/2-7.htm

And other verses in the chapter.. "we were all dead (and subject to death, lifeless) but He raised us up and seated us (assigned us?) in Heavenly realms with Jesus  ..that He might show in the ages that are coming, the surpassing riches of the grace of Him.." ..not of one's self.. not of works, but of His Spirit.. that none may boast..

  Awesome    Marie ... :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:   

Amen  ..... the mark of the beast seems to be a selfish desire  of   self love [false image ] and  own kind only [like minded ] and of this  world  &  works of vanity/futility   to be burned  ...   

[rosered]

Posted by rosered

"Awesome    Marie ... :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:   

Amen  ..... the mark of the beast seems to be a selfish desire  of   self love [false image ] and  own kind only [like minded ] and of this  world  &  works of vanity/futility   to be burned  ...  "


Now you have gotten me thinking that I have taken the mark and will be doomed forever. I thought the mark dealt with buying and selling. I hope I'm not condemned forever because I had a dream about me having taken the mark and now i'm scared.

  Oh Honey not you !!  forgive me for   not being more clear  ....

it is the ''  false image ''that must be destroyed  , tearing down the strong holds   that keep you   prisoner    , those thoughts are not of Gods Spirit   you are having   , God is never like that !!

   Rest assured God has got this ,  you must trust   everything  GOD  does it perfect    , complete and  Jesus Christ  is the author and finisher of your faith in Him ....   do not doubt that for a nano second  :HeartThrob:

 

[Ross]

Now you have gotten me thinking that I have taken the mark and will be doomed forever.

Even if you have the mark of the beast, which I.M.O you do not because you are just beginning a change in your life to even be considering what you will be in the glorious future,  literally ALL will be saved; that includes you and me.
The key difference is that we are learning at our own time, just like we do in our family in the flesh. Just like as a dad we would not throw our children into eternal torment, His love is greater.
The devil will try and distract you from your position and point out all your sins; our learning, I.M.O is coming to see that Christ literally paid in full. Christ is greater than the devil. The law points out our mistakes and makes us value the grace so much more.

The concept of eternity being punished defeats the work of Christ.
Judgment means correction, and to fully appreciate the work of Christ we learn just how much his death pays for our sins- ALL OUR SINS.
Since He did this a couple of thousand years before we were born, and He knew where and when we would be born; His plan is faultless.
We have examples of planning in detail when looking at the planning of a major construction. The managers know the plan and only tell the workers to their level of development. Not everyone knows the whole plan until the construction is completed.
I.M.O some have been given roles to play in this age so that we can see the need for true values to be considerate of others.
Hence in lowliness of mind to consider others more than self; which Christ demonstrated by giving up His position in the heavens to die for us. Now a creator doing that for the created is an awesome concept.
His love is immeasurable. We are just learning the depth of that love and the need for true love as we are learning the glorious truth that sets us free from sin, and death.
The next ages will be powerful- just like moving from riding a bike to driving a seriously large truck, or air plane, of ship.
YOU ARE SAVED BY CHRIST IN FULL- HIS GRACE IS GREATER THAN OUR SINS.

[rosered]

Now you have gotten me thinking that I have taken the mark and will be doomed forever.

Even if you have the mark of the beast, which I.M.O you do not because you are just beginning a change in your life to even be considering what you will be in the glorious future,  literally ALL will be saved; that includes you and me.
The key difference is that we are learning at our own time, just like we do in our family in the flesh. Just like as a dad we would not throw our children into eternal torment, His love is greater.
The devil will try and distract you from your position and point out all your sins; our learning, I.M.O is coming to see that Christ literally paid in full. Christ is greater than the devil. The law points out our mistakes and makes us value the grace so much more.

The concept of eternity being punished defeats the work of Christ.
Judgment means correction, and to fully appreciate the work of Christ we learn just how much his death pays for our sins- ALL OUR SINS.
Since He did this a couple of thousand years before we were born, and He knew where and when we would be born; His plan is faultless.
We have examples of planning in detail when looking at the planning of a major construction. The managers know the plan and only tell the workers to their level of development. Not everyone knows the whole plan until the construction is completed.
I.M.O some have been given roles to play in this age so that we can see the need for true values to be considerate of others.
Hence in lowliness of mind to consider others more than self; which Christ demonstrated by giving up His position in the heavens to die for us. Now a creator doing that for the created is an awesome concept.
His love is immeasurable. We are just learning the depth of that love and the need for true love as we are learning the glorious truth that sets us free from sin, and death.
The next ages will be powerful- just like moving from riding a bike to driving a seriously large truck, or air plane, of ship.
YOU ARE SAVED BY CHRIST IN FULL- HIS GRACE IS GREATER THAN OUR SINS.

  Amen Ross    :HeartThrob:   

  Love reigns  supreme !!    Father knows best     :dsunny:   

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The carnal character could be said to be a mark of the beast(ly character of self before all else) -- But as far as the prophesied mark without which one "cannot buy or sell" - which escalates to "will be killed" is, I believe, something very much obvious and clearly seen.. Not something which is somehow given on the sly.. For example, man is currently fooling around with ai - artificial intelligence. I have even read that a top executive at google has created what he calls an ai church and is gathering folks to create an ai 'god' to worship.. (what could possibly go wrong!?) And 'they' already have ai chips which are being used for things like Parkinson's.. Call me paranoid, but just the other day I was wondering if there could be such a thing as nano viruses.. (ai viruses let loose, requiring aid from the false prophet/man's modern 'science'/pseudo science that rejects God). But enough of that! [Daniel 12:11,12? - 45 days of 666? w/ the last "ten days (tribulation"/trouble/pressure,etc) being hyper critical?] I believe the mark will be literal, and is a voluntary allegiance and signing on to man's theory of life and politics.. Thus open rejection of Yhvh and Jesus - and as a literal thing "on the forehead or hand" - past prophecies have been literal (as well as with an allegory/spiritual truth in them; forehead typifying the psyche? Yet still in very late days of this age and system of things, being literally some sort of mark, tatoo, or, imo, most likely a chip with - surprise! - tracking and behavior modification capability, hence it desolates, in 'last' days the temple of a person, which all ppl are to be the temple of the Living God)

[Ross]

Interesting about the mark- there are now micro-chips which can be used to "protect" us so we do not get lost.
Credit cards now have the  main use for transactions and cash is being phased out. Now one can just wave a mobile phone at the teller and all data is in the system. Means we are a number.
All seems to be as a literal ability to work out the market for the "Merchants" so that they control all sales and our recreational life.
Would be why Revelations says "woe to the merchants".

Marie I don't call you paranoid, just observant. We are told to watch with eyes open so we recognise the closeness of His return.