God is not obligated to save anyone (Who really deserves to be saved?)

[rosered]

If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?

Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?

I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.

Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.

And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.

And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??

   :iagree:

[rosered]

My logic. I apologize for only skimming the rest of the replies.

God made us in His image and likeness. He tells us through the Bible, through the Holy Spirit, through nature, that He loves us.

We read in the Bible that Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

If we are told that He counts every hair on our head; that we are worth much more than the sparrows and the lilies; that even if our mother and father forsake us, that He will never forsake us; that He will leave the 99 and look for the one that is lost....

We all have sinned and deserve death.....yet, Jesus came to conquer death...that will be the last thing that is brought under His submission. He came to save us, and died a horrible death to do so.

As I see it, love and truth bind us together. No, He does not have to save anyone, but by His nature, by His Word, and by His great Love, He will save us. That is what Grace is....our undeserved gift of grace. Given, though we do not deserve it.

Romans 5:

...7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!...

D.

:iagree:  Salvation is of God ,
  Some   were made already ,   some are made  now  and all will be made   to know the salvation of God 

  Many examples  are for everyone's learning    the ways of God

[rosered]

Psalms 102;19,20 [16-22]   THE LORD LOOKED DOWN FROM HIS SANCTUARY ON HIGH FROM HEAVEN HE VIEWED THE EARTH

     TO HEAR THE GROANS OF THE PRISONERS AND RELEASE THOSE CONDEMNED TO DEATH. :2c:

  16 When the Lord builds up Zion, He will appear in His glory;

17 He will regard the plea of the destitute and will not despise their prayer.

18 Let this be recorded for the generation yet unborn, that a people yet to be created shall praise the Lord.

19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary, from heaven did the Lord behold the earth,

20 To hear the sighing and groaning of the prisoner, to loose those who are appointed to death,

21 So that men may declare the name of the Lord in Zion and His praise in Jerusalem

22 When peoples are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to worship and serve the Lord.

23 He has afflicted and weakened my strength, humbling and bringing me low [with sorrow] in the way; He has shortened my days [aging me prematurely].

24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days, You Whose years continue throughout all generations.

25 At the beginning You existed and laid the foundations of the earth; the heavens are the work of Your hands.

26 They shall perish, but You shall remain and endure; yes, all of them shall wear out and become old like a garment. Like clothing You shall change them, and they shall be changed and pass away.

27 But You remain the same, and Your years shall have no end.

28 The children of Your servants shall dwell safely and continue, and their descendants shall be established before You.


  :iagree:    Amen , the bigger picture     

[rosered]

On the image of God, I read that it is actually it is the Greek aorist tense. Essentially it would actually say God is making and not has made. Apparently the same way I AM is used. The same for John 3:16...

16for God did so love(Should be loves as He STILL loves us) the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing(Notice it is PRESENT tense, still going on, and not Past. Regarding these verses as PAST tense is incorrect, apparently) in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Same for Hebrews 4:10(got Concordant version online site somewhere)

10 For he who is entering into His stopping(Should be thought of as PRESENT tense apparently. Same for when most translations have past tensed words like rested, believed, stretched, shall be as current, etc. These should be more better written as: is restING, is believING, is stretchING, WILL be saved as a future event - Kingdom and not now. That is what faith is for right now, I think, but need more studying on it to be more conclusive.) he also stops from his works even as God from His own.

We are also on that seventh day right now. As God IS ceasing His works(physically) we are also CEASING our works, and having peace/rest in Him, guarded by Him with the mind of Christ, which surpasses all understanding( I am thinking worldly wisdom)(Phil 4:6)

Hebrews 10:1
1For the law having a shadow of the coming good things--not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near

This is why we are not to do things like the sabbath, physical religious rituals, religious junk stuff, etc. Why? Because these things are a mere SHADOW of things to COME! We fulfill the sabbath SPIRITUALLY. How? By RESTING our own works, and doing HIS in us! How much greater are the things of now a mere shadow of Heavenly things to come?

God's my  2c:

Yes  ,   we wait  on the Lord to show us all ,  as we learn of Him  and His ways :dsunny:

  Everyone is being subjected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil  first , after we learn  not to touch it no more .

  Our hope is in the tree of Life that being Jesus Christ

[jugghead]

Day One
Just as the light was hidden by the darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God hidden by the flesh of man

but then ...

just as the darkness is now hidden by the light ..... so is the flesh of man now hidden by the Spirit of God

but then ...

just as the light is separated from darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God separated from the flesh of man

and it is not until this is understood in our mind and believed in our heart that this separation has taken place in us ... (before we actually do physically die, have that separation take place) "because it first took place at the cross" ... can we be moved into Day Two,

moved into the firmament to understand that all of mankind, from the beginning to now, have been, are being and will be ..... moved/removed from darkness into light ..... moved/removed from the flesh of man to the Spirit of God ..... moved/removed from the spirit of man into the Spirit of God

The Glory of God ... I believe ... is His work in us ... and it is because of that work in me/us can I/we rejoice and have hope that it will be accomplished

I believe the six days of creation is the creation of the first Adam (mankind) into the last Adam (the body of Christ) and being in God's seventh day, His Day of rest, is to understand His process in us (His plan in us) that it will be accomplished, it is in His accomplishments that He rests in and we are to do the same ..... be still and know I am God ..... know the "I am" ..... know God

my  :2c:

[GodIsLove]

If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?

Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?

I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.

Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.

And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.

And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??

Whoops...

I was being sarcastic, thinking that the answer you gave was already evident. Thanks for your thoughts, though.

Hi ML! I was just agreeing to your post and adding to it—I knew you didn't really mean it as a question to be answered, it was rhetorical.

:gimmefive:

[MusicLover123]

Hi ML! I was just agreeing to your post and adding to it—I knew you didn't really mean it as a question to be answered, it was rhetorical.

:gimmefive:

:gimmefive: :bump:

[rosered]

Day One
Just as the light was hidden by the darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God hidden by the flesh of man

but then ...

just as the darkness is now hidden by the light ..... so is the flesh of man now hidden by the Spirit of God

but then ...

just as the light is separated from darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God separated from the flesh of man

and it is not until this is understood in our mind and believed in our heart that this separation has taken place in us ... (before we actually do physically die, have that separation take place) "because it first took place at the cross" ... can we be moved into Day Two,

moved into the firmament to understand that all of mankind, from the beginning to now, have been, are being and will be ..... moved/removed from darkness into light ..... moved/removed from the flesh of man to the Spirit of God ..... moved/removed from the spirit of man into the Spirit of God

The Glory of God ... I believe ... is His work in us ... and it is because of that work in me/us can I/we rejoice and have hope that it will be accomplished

I believe the six days of creation is the creation of the first Adam (mankind) into the last Adam (the body of Christ) and being in God's seventh day, His Day of rest, is to understand His process in us (His plan in us) that it will be accomplished, it is in His accomplishments that He rests in and we are to do the same ..... be still and know I am God ..... know the "I am" ..... know God

my  :2c:

  :iagree: 

  I do not believe many are   thinking   like this  bro     :2c:    just a few , like  you and I  and have known a few  also .

There   are not to many internatizers ,   the Word to be   eaten  and ingested  and made to  sustain the inner man of the heart


The kingdom of God is near and within you , you  are the temple of the Living God   and Eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life within you , The Christ in you the hope of glory , lots many  are not   able   to consider   as real

Many believe it is   to be outwardly  :dontknow:   Some other time and place and peoples   , not nows ..timing is off  ect  :2c:

We can only believe as   to what we are given by the Holy Spirit  witness ,,,    Just believing  ,  in the Salvation of all ,  has its persecutions   

I believe the Sabbath  Day rest is the 1000  year reign of   our Lord Jesus Christ  by  His greater  and finished  work   of fulfilling all things completely and perfectly    within the   parameters   of HIS WORD BY HIS SPIRIT [ His  own body Holds everything   dead & alive  within Himself ,promise /covenant ] Making everything   living and new .Till GOD BE ALL IN ALL.  He alone absolves  death with His own Life ..Only God can give the increase   :HeartThrob:

a numerical or other measurable factor forming one of a set that defines a system or sets the conditions of its operation.
"the transmission will not let you downshift unless your speed is within the lower gear's parameters"
MATHEMATICS
a quantity whose value is selected for the particular circumstances and in relation to which other variable quantities may be expressed.
STATISTICS
a numerical characteristic of a population, as distinct from a statistic of a sample.

God never changes  , he just changes  us  all :dsunny:      :HeartThrob: 

[rosered]

Hi ML! I was just agreeing to your post and adding to it—I knew you didn't really mean it as a question to be answered, it was rhetorical.

:gimmefive:

:gimmefive: :bump:

   :dsunny: :HeartThrob:      awe  :grouppray:   

  I love the being in  the Holy Spirit & fire for God  as you share  and it sets us all  ablaze  :dsunny:  ALIVE  It is  the best place ever ...   I wonder if the  hot /zealous /passionate  is to make us  more  aware ? , being cold /lazy and lack empathy is just  miserable like dead  in our sinful state maybe ?


My  thoughts about  the  two different fires   :2c:  , one  of idolatry   that praise God and curse mankind  and only concerned about their own salvation and their own kind   but care  little  about anyone else  :sigh:  the   Holy Spirit and fire is of Gods love and jealousy to save   everyone  every where  all the time  even now to have the good of God  working in them  all and though them  all  , hopeful and thrilled  about   the salvation of God ...
  Maybe the spirits are   like fires   that does set the whole world ablaze   , one is evil the other is good  ?  and to know what manner of spirit we are of ?


   The Lord  would rather ,,we be  HOT/zeal  OR COLD  /inert    , because the lukewarm state is the  puke warm / halfheartedness  metaph. of the condition of the soul wretchedly fluctuating between a torpor and a fervour of love = spue  out of His mouth   rejection     :2c:   

  Rev 3

13 He who can hear, let him listen to and heed what the Spirit says to the assemblies (churches).

14 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea/ write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation:

15 I know your [record of] works and what you are doing; you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot!

16 So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth!

17 For you say, I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy, and I am in need of nothing; and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

18 Therefore I counsel you to purchase from Me gold refined and tested by fire, that you may be [truly] wealthy, and white clothes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nudity from being seen, and salve to put on your eyes, that you may see.

19 Those whom I [dearly and tenderly] love, I tell their faults and convict and convince and reprove and chasten [I discipline and instruct them]. So be enthusiastic and in earnest and burning with zeal and repent [changing your mind and attitude].

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears and listens to and heeds My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will eat with him, and he [will eat] with Me.

21 He who overcomes (is victorious), I will grant him to sit beside Me on My throne, as I Myself overcame (was victorious) and sat down beside My Father on His throne.



22 He who is able to hear, let him listen to and heed what the [Holy] Spirit says to the assemblies (churches).


It sounds like   the last day church is  stuck  in the middle    and have not overcome the world  or tongue as  yet    :sigh:

  James 3   this fire and tongue  is of gehenna judgment   , only GOD can tame  , God help us all       :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:

[darryl]

he is not obligated but He's love so He does save all... :dsunny:

[rosered]

he is not obligated but He's love so He does save all... :dsunny:

  Thanks Darryl , That is what amazing grace is all about   eh? ...    GOD IS LOVE ,So He gives of His self  :HeartThrob:


The word 'grace' (CHEN in Hebrew, CHARIS in Greek), as it is used in the scriptures, literally means 'favour', to bend or stoop in kindness to another as a superior to an inferior. ... His grace has been termed 'Unearned kindness' but it is more than an attitude of favour or mercy.

[darryl]

 :dsunny: :banana:

he is not obligated but He's love so He does save all... :dsunny:

  Thanks Darryl , That is what amazing grace is all about   eh? ...    GOD IS LOVE ,So He gives of His self  :HeartThrob:


The word 'grace' (CHEN in Hebrew, CHARIS in Greek), as it is used in the scriptures, literally means 'favour', to bend or stoop in kindness to another as a superior to an inferior. ... His grace has been termed 'Unearned kindness' but it is more than an attitude of favour or mercy.

[itivino]

Love this thread - there's a very good George Macdonald sermon related to this, specifically on Job, http://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/unspoken-sermons/22/ . A few portions below - the point being that there is nothing wrong with obligation, and in truth, it's something perfectly father-like. Saying that God is under no obligation to his creatures/children is just another pharisaical attempt to distance ourselves from God because we have a sinful inclination to flatter God, in the same way we would an awful tyrant - treating him like a man to be flattered and who cares about the praise of men.

"The grandeur of the poem is that Job pleads his cause with God against all the remonstrance of religious authority, recognizing no one but God, and justified therein. And the grandest of all is this, that he implies, if he does not actually say, that God owes something to his creature. This is the beginning of the greatest discovery of all--that God owes himself to the creature he has made in his image, for so he has made him incapable of living without him. This, his creatures' highest claim upon him, is his divinest gift to them. For the fulfilling of this their claim he has sent his son, that he may himself, the father of him and of us, follow into our hearts. Perhaps the worst thing in a theology constructed out of man's dull possible, and not out of the being and deeds and words of Jesus Christ, is the impression it conveys throughout that God acknowledges no such obligation. Are not we the clay, and he the potter? how can the clay claim from the potter? We are the clay, it is true, but his clay, but spiritual clay, live clay, with needs and desires--and rights; we are clay, but clay worth the Son of God's dying for, that it might learn to consent to be shaped unto honour. We can have no merits--a merit is a thing impossible; but God has given us rights. Out of him we have nothing; but, created by him, come forth from him, we have even rights towards him--ah, never, never against him! his whole desire and labour is to make us capable of claiming, and induce us to claim of him the things whose rights he bestowed in creating us. No claim had we to be created: that involves an absurdity; but, being made, we have claims on him who made us: our needs are our claims. A man who will not provide for the hunger of his child, is condemned by the whole world."


"He is not a God to accept the flattery which declares him above obligation to his creatures; a God to demand of them a righteousness different from his own; a God to deal ungenerously with his poverty-stricken children; a God to make severest demands upon his little ones! Job is confident of receiving justice. There is a strange but most natural conflict of feeling in him. His faith is in truth profound, yet is he always complaining. It is but the form his faith takes in his trouble. Even while he declares the hardness and unfitness of the usage he is receiving, he yet seems assured that, to get things set right, all he needs is admission to the presence of God--an interview with the Most High. To be heard must be to have justice. He uses language which, used by any living man, would horrify the religious of the present day, in proportion to the lack of truth in them, just as it horrified his three friends, the honest pharisees of the time, whose religion was 'doctrine' and rebuke. God speaks not a word of rebuke to Job for the freedom of his speech:--he has always been seeking such as Job to worship him. It is those who know only and respect the outsides of religion, such as never speak or think of God but as the Almighty or Providence, who will say of the man who would go close up to God, and speak to him out of the deepest in the nature he has made, 'he is irreverent.' To utter the name of God in the drama--highest of human arts, is with such men blasphemy. They pay court to God, not love him; they treat him as one far away, not as the one whose bosom is the only home. They accept God's person. 'Shall not his excellency'--another thing quite than that you admire--'make you afraid? Shall not his dread'--another thing quite than that to which you show your pagan respect--'fall upon you?'"

[Patinak]

Thanks for the post itivino, was interesting to read.  When I get back home from work I'm going to read the rest of the sermon.
Pat

[rosered]

     Thanks   itivino     :HeartThrob:

  For sharing George Macdonald ,  that was  so interesting , for Him to be writing in the Spirit  over  120 years ago what he understood !
It still applies  to this  day ....  I love it when they consider the new creatures in Christ   , I have always wondered if by the same nature  as to being     little lambs of GOD   following the good shepherd  Our Lord Jesus Christ  ,

knowing He come as a little lamb in to   the world to be rejected   of mans wisdom , of the serpents  mind  , but    come as a  gentle creature  led to the slaughter , to  take away the sins of the whole world  ,   

  as we also   are born again of the Spirit   to  a new and living way  as gentle doves / spirits / and lambs  need  to be  raised   by an authority over them   to survive   ,  alone  become prey for the wolves  as the Good Shepherd seeks   them by their  innocent cries  , the   wolves nature of a beast   that is very carnal  and runs on  threat and instinct  and hunger   , they can appear to be  so  tame at times and yet  can turn in a  instant  on anything   that  threatens their  pack  mentality  as they run in groups  and always roaming   to rise up kill and eat . They can even be cruel to one another over food  sources ..


I have also considered everything is purposed in God   , the anointing   to be as God sees fit to bring about  His Word being fulfilled   ,  no creature born  can say , God why did you make me like this ?

   All are  made weak  in the sense that they cannot  survive   without God giving them sustenance    and a  drive  to survive .

Everything works together for the good of those  whom love the Lord and are called according  to His purpose  ,  God is  the  way and truth and Life     in what ever way   these creatures new and old  come to an end   will finally know  for what purpose they were created  for GODS GLORY   To be made known on earth as it is in heaven .

  I  also thought of Peters dream when he was  withholding mercy on the gentiles [nations ] other than his own kind   and   was not Gods will .

According to the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 10, Saint Peter had a vision of a vessel (Greek: σκεῦός, skeuos; "a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners")

full of animals being lowered from heaven (Acts 10:11).


A voice from heaven told Peter to kill and eat, but since the vessel (or sheet, ὀθόνη, othonē) contained unclean animals,

Peter declined. The command was repeated two more times, along with the voice saying, "What God hath made clean, that call not thou common" (verse 15) and then the vessel was taken back to heaven (verse 16).

At this point in the narrative, messengers sent from Cornelius the Centurion arrive and urge Peter to go with them.

He does so, and mentions the vision as he speaks to Cornelius, saying "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean" (Acts 10:28). Peter related the vision again in Acts 11:4-9.

ALL  of God creatures great and small glorify God  , cruel or innocent   in nature , made by God Himself ,   whom is the ONE  and ONLY ONE  that can purpose them according to His own desires     ,    For me  :2c:  I have certainly changed  my mind about    what God  can and cannot do   with His own things   and in this process of changing    have finally accepted by faith    to wait on the Lord   to show us  in His timing  what is  , and  what was and  what will be   .
   The blood of the lamb   has made  what  all   life , red blood stained  by sin nature   ,  as gathered up in a   brilliant  white covering /sheet / vessel to be gathered into    heaven      ,   in my own  judgement / opinion , and learning  not to fret    and sweat the  silly things that can and  does divide   us all   as adversaries and enemies of Jesus Cross .  as we take up our own cross  and follow the Lamb where ever He goes if that is also our course  ....

  the rev 14

3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.

And no one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.

4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins.

They follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

  For me it is because those  firstfruits of the increase of Gods grace [ head /authority  to lay down and form the body  of Christ  as a living thing  in the earth  and good ground  , that the seeds of heaven  ,  were scattered  in the earth  and made even more fruit to God in a number that cannot be   even  be measured by a number by anyone !!!   :banana: :dsunny:

    Rev 7


9 After this I looked and a vast host appeared which no one could count, [gathered out] of every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. These stood before the throne and before the Lamb; they were attired in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

10 In loud voice they cried, saying, [Our] salvation is due to our God, Who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb [to Them we owe our deliverance]!

11 And all the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders [of the heavenly Sanhedrin] and the four living creatures, and they fell prostrate before the throne and worshiped God.

12 Amen! (So be it!) they cried. Blessing and glory and majesty and splendor and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and might [be ascribed] to our God to the ages and ages (forever and ever, throughout the eternities of the eternities)! Amen! (So be it!)

13 Then, addressing me, one of the elders [[c]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said, Who are these [people] clothed in the long white robes? And from where have they come?

14 I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 For this reason they are [now] before the [very] throne of God and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary (temple); and He Who is sitting upon the throne will protect and spread His tabernacle over and shelter them with His presence.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun smite them, nor any [d]scorching heat.

17 For the Lamb Who is in the midst of the throne will be their Shepherd, and He will guide them to the springs of the waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

[GodIsLove]

Itivino and Rose,
Good posts!

[TheJason]

God was never obligated to save even one. He wasn't obligated to create us either.
But now He is obligated because He made a promise.
Not living up to that promise would be a lie.
Suggesting that is more of a heresy than UR in my little book. :dbook:

Yeah, God not being true to himself is impossible.