Does Pharaoh Typify Satan?

[jabcat]

Gonna take this opportunity to throw out a bunch of various but hopefully related thoughts - more in general than specifically.

As far as the topic;  I guess I have absolutely no disagreement with everything you (Jason) have posted about this topic.  I personally believe in layers of scriptures, that things have a spiritual significance, and that some things are even HIGHLY symbolic.  On the other hand, I believe some things are literal and/or point to a literal concept, and should not be over spiritualized.   Now here's my guess.  I'd guess some in this thread think you, me, and maybe a couple others, would be over-literalizing some things;  while I'm also guessing we might think some others are over-spiritualizing some things.  All looking at the same scriptures, all believing the Bible, but still coming up with significantly different takes on it.  Strange huh?  Honestly, I personally don't truly get it, i.e., why many things aren't more clear-cut to us.  Seems we humans - even ardent believers - still can be miles apart on what I'd call non-essentials.  Confuses me.  I guess that's where living in peace with one another as "much as depends on me" comes in.  Unify as much as possible, even with - maybe in - disagreement.  Sounds like a tough trick to me, but I guess a worthy goal to strive toward. 

rosie, you and I for instance, apparently see this particular topic fairly differently ( a few others too).  But that's OK.  I value your friendship through the years, fellowship on these boards, etc., and on a topic like this, I think we'd both refuse to 'divide" over it.  It's not worth it.  We both believe in trusting and following Jesus, and He will hold us in His grasp and lead us along.  If it were an "essential" of the faith, such as if you came out one day and said "Jesus isn't the son of God", then you bet I'd divide with you over it.  Well, at first I'd try to convince you otherwise - probably briefly, actually - and if you refused to believe, then I'd move on.  Our fellowship would be hindered if not broken, ("don't even eat a meal with such a one").  OTOH, I'd encourage you to do the same, if I found myself in obvious, open apostasy.  Confront me, try to "redeem" me, if not, then shake the dust and leave me in God's hands.  But over probably 95% of the scriptures, that are obviously important, even vital - yet not the very most basic essentials of the faith - IMO, it's just not worth ripping each other up over it.  Admittedly, been there and done that, guilty.  But I don't think it's the ideal.   :2c:
-------
Oh well, anyway, to the ACTUAL OP, does Pharaoh typify satan...I don't think I've ever actually weighed in on that.  I think I'd say yes, as in typify, symbolize, represent, be a symbol of.  But mainly, I think satan is satan and pharaoh was pharaoh.  And as Forrest Gump said, "THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT".   :laugh:

[Jason]

IMO
The Spirit of God has been and is with us always.
There is no doubt we live in God.
Amen.  :HeartThrob:
:dsunny:  :friendstu:  :thumbsup:
I did actually realize this morning that Pride is the biggest enemy we face.  We overcome Him by The Spirit of God.  I had never really thought of Satan as Pride Himself until this morning.

[rosered]

Gonna take this opportunity to throw out a bunch of various but hopefully related thoughts - more in general than specifically.

As far as the topic;  I guess I have absolutely no disagreement with everything you (Jason) have posted about this topic.  I personally believe in layers of scriptures, that things have a spiritual significance, and that some things are even HIGHLY symbolic.  On the other hand, I believe some things are literal and/or point to a literal concept, and should not be over spiritualized.   Now here's my guess.  I'd guess some in this thread think you, me, and maybe a couple others, would be over-literalizing some things;  while I'm also guessing we might think some others are over-spiritualizing some things.  All looking at the same scriptures, all believing the Bible, but still coming up with significantly different takes on it.  Strange huh?  Honestly, I personally don't truly get it, i.e., why many things aren't more clear-cut to us.  Seems we humans - even ardent believers - still can be miles apart on what I'd call non-essentials.  Confuses me.  I guess that's where living in peace with one another as "much as depends on me" comes in.  Unify as much as possible, even with - maybe in - disagreement.  Sounds like a tough trick to me, but I guess a worthy goal to strive toward. 

rosie, you and I for instance, apparently see this particular topic fairly differently ( a few others too).  But that's OK.  I value your friendship through the years, fellowship on these boards, etc., and on a topic like this, I think we'd both refuse to 'divide" over it.  It's not worth it.  We both believe in trusting and following Jesus, and He will hold us in His grasp and lead us along.  If it were an "essential" of the faith, such as if you came out one day and said "Jesus isn't the son of God", then you bet I'd divide with you over it.  Well, at first I'd try to convince you otherwise - probably briefly, actually - and if you refused to believe, then I'd move on.  Our fellowship would be hindered if not broken, ("don't even eat a meal with such a one").  OTOH, I'd encourage you to do the same, if I found myself in obvious, open apostasy.  Confront me, try to "redeem" me, if not, then shake the dust and leave me in God's hands.  But over probably 95% of the scriptures, that are obviously important, even vital - yet not the very most basic essentials of the faith - IMO, it's just not worth ripping each other up over it.  Admittedly, been there and done that, guilty.  But I don't think it's the ideal.   :2c:
-------
Oh well, anyway, to the ACTUAL OP, does Pharaoh typify satan...I don't think I've ever actually weighed in on that.  I think I'd say yes, as in typify, symbolize, represent, be a symbol of.  But mainly, I think satan is satan and pharaoh was pharaoh.  And as Forrest Gump said, "THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT".   :laugh:

    Bro James ,
  It is nothing  I wanted to  prove to anyone ,  and do not have to be right  , I think being loving is right  and a peacemaker , I hope no one is offended  over this thread ...  Satan is allowed to eat our flesh that his his lot /portion and food
  But what will he do when there is no more flesh to eat any longer  ?  , I believe his work will be done !   ,

Oh destroyer  ,

Isaiah 33 1Woe to you, O destroyer, While you were not destroyed;

And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.

As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed; As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.

2O LORD, be gracious to us; we have waited for You. Be their strength every morning, Our salvation also in the time of distress....

I believe  we all will be very much praising God for everything   He has done  and humbled by  Him in every way .

  I confess in my searching out the scriptures  , I am learning too .

I have by now learned never say never  :laughing7:

As far as Satan goes   , I do believe God uses   him for proving a point , a learning tool if you will and I always called Satan  a beast on a short leash .
Greater than us most certainly and serves everyone as well  , He can only go as far as God allows him to go .

I see the 7 heads on Levathains  heads    as   Kings of the earth and one is   Pharaoh ,    You are right I do see them as Symbolic   [Image of the Beast] corruptible   at that , none are still kings of the earth   now  , they  all died as men .

I see satan as an image , as a messenger of bad news ,a  serpent , certainly not mortal or flesh but thrives on devouring it ,  in our minds eye we can see the damage   done by his presence in the earth  God has given him certain wisdom  and  powers over the  masses , peoples  over the ages  as well ..

He does serve God in ways , a most undesirable job  description ever .
Satan is the total opposite   of Jesus Christ   in ever way .
But all things work together for the good of those whom Love  the Lord  God and are called according to His purpose .

I must clarify , I understand at this time  satan as a serpent of old ,  a serpent is of cunning wisdom  and  symbolically a beast that God created on the 6th day , Just as Jesus is Symbolically   a Lamb of God   We also know and believe that     These things are also spiritually   symbolic as well .
  and   both have opposing  minds  that think  entirely differently  , one is of the world  only  a power , Satan/serpent  is cut off from any knowledge of the the heavens now after the great war in heaven Rev 12  and the other wisdom   from above Lamb  of God is of  all things heaven and earth and below .all power .   
Genesis  1 
24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.

25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

   27    So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;


male and female he created them.

28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it,

and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

9 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit.

You shall have them for food.

30 And uto every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 vAnd God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

We are symbolically compared to many things as well  , our  flesh is as grass  , and trees planted by the waters and   tender shoots  , wheat and  tares   . sheep and goats  , birds of the air   men as brute beasts  etc ... many  scriptures  of symbolic  meanings   to at least consider  .

I value  friendships  also Brother   , and yours  as well  and never want you to think  bullying is ok , it is never ok .  I hope no one ever thinks that or acts in such ways as that on this forum.

We are all trying to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH  , that   the Lord will set His  whole creation free from , One beautiful Day .   :HeartThrob:   :friendstu:
 

IMO
The Spirit of God has been and is with us always.
There is no doubt we live in God.
Amen.  :HeartThrob:
:dsunny:  :friendstu:  :thumbsup:
I did actually realize this morning that Pride is the biggest enemy we face.  We overcome Him by The Spirit of God.  I had never really thought of Satan as Pride Himself until this morning.

:dsunny: :friendstu: :HeartThrob:  yay!!    the pride of life   1 john 2   

15Do not love the world or anything in the world.

If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

  16For all that is in the world — the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life — is not from the Father but from the world. 17The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever. 

  Everything here is very temporary   and full of hate  and opposes  the  Love of God  big time   :dsunny:

[jabcat]

 :angelharp:

[GodIsLove]

Hello everyone,
I enjoyed this thread and all of the viewpoints.

I am at a point where I feel that I don't know a lot (and probably none of us do). It makes for a tricky time trying to teach my kids, but I also in a way think it's preferrable to those who teach with an authority that they don't really have.  It's true that Christians all have so many different interpretations of truth.  When I take a step back I really just try to pray and ask for guidance, but ultimately I don't know if God wants to tell us all the answers.  I sometimes think He wants our trust without knowing it all, and just leaning on his day to day guidance. Of course that's hard too.

I don't know if Satan is metaphorical or literal and how much power it wields.

One thought I have on this subject is that of fairness. Wouldn't those people who were unknowingly decieved by an evil being think it hugely unfair that they are then judged for their actions? This life is hard enough to seek the light and do good...let alone having an invisible spirit or beings working against us.

But who am I to judge God's plan and motives, I know He is Love and works all things for the ultimate good.

I have experienced evil in this world as we all have and I always think it's possible that there are unseen evil forces (Satan demons etc) but it very well could be that all of the evil comes from the pit in our own minds and hardness of heart. Or both.

I also think the more power we give to evil the stronger it becomes, whether or not the evil is a being or a thought.

[Ross]

Jesus recognised a difference between the kingdom to come- His- and the ruler of this present kingdom - satan.

John 18;36 " Jesus answered [Pilate],
                                                    ' My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world then My servants would
                                                      be fighting to prevent Me from being handed over to the Jews;
                                                      but as it is, My kingdom is NOT from here."

Paul recognises this in Colossians 1;13
                                                       " He has rescued us from the tyranny of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom
                                                         of His beloved Son."

God transferring us out of the current kingdom or the enemy - Satan- into the coming kingdom of His Son Jesus.
Would be why Paul stated in the 3rd chapter that we are now hidden "in Christ" until His return. So I.M.O our protection is for this age from the full power of Satan, but we go through things to learn- pretty much like being in a classroom and going through scenarios, at the end of the day you leave the classroom and the data is recorded in the brain, yet not overpowering us.

I.M.O these is indeed a real adversary- but am I focussing on him, or Jesus. Whichever format we see him should not matter as he is merely a distraction throwing all sorts of concepts onto our plate; we just need to sort the healthy from the rubbish which requires spiritual perception/wisdom which is only In Christ; so why go anywhere else?

[CST]

I did actually realize this morning that Pride is the biggest enemy we face.  We overcome Him by The Spirit of God.  I had never really thought of Satan as Pride Himself until this morning.

Which suggests that you may be learning to revise your position on Satan, Satan cannot be an independent being and our pride at the same time, historically pride has been associated with the carnal mind which you have been denying that Satan is.

As for you long post, where to begin, I know I'll have to delete the quote from it because this will get too long.

So, firstly Satan is actually taught as being God's enemy first and our enemy second his endeavor is to hurt God by hurting us, that's how the symbol is presented. Of course knowing thsi still doesn't mean I believe in the existence of an actual fallen angel who wanders the Earth attempting to get us to sin or goes to God and tries to persuade Him to allow him to put us to tests God already knows whether we'll pass or not, that's not the point.

Also it's not fair and seems disingenuous to compare my denial of the existence of the character of Satan with Hoover's denial of the Mafia (which I actaully don't remember and young-ish and English). Hoover's denial was absolute and allowed the Mafia to carry on regardless, however I believe in God and my responsibility to Him, therefore if Satan tempts me it's still on me to recognize and resist that temptation irrespective of where I feel it comes from and I know that I need God to give me the strength to do that. I believe Satan exists I just don't think the term means what you think it does but I still think whatever it is poses a potential danger to me and others.

When you talk to me about the Garden of Eden you seem to be imagining I take that story historically minus the actually role of Satan which I don't, I believe it may have taken place in some other spiritual realm which humans have (or had) connection to but I struggle to hold that it could have happened in actual history when the science doesn't support it, though I do know the science could be incorrect for any number of reasons. So, year, I kind of think Eve was taking to herself but perhaps the internal dialogue didn't go down quote as presented in the Bible. I'm pretty opened minded about this because I've adapted my thoughts about it several times.

(1 Chr 21:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

(2 Sam. 24:1) 'Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."'

So should we read that 'Satan' = 'the anger of the LORD' here? There are numerous ways people have interpreted the contradiction here but they seem strangely inclined to reject that one. It doesn't much matter I think, whichever interpretation you pick it's not finally provable.

I've already described what I think about the use of the term 'Satan' in Job, in Zechariah it's clearly being used for prophesy. the Psalmic reference is the most interesting, you have referenced either the KJV or the Webster translation it would seem. I can tell this because, despite your claim, multiple modern translation no longer use the proper noun here. Yes, I know English grammar, kind of, but the OT was written in Hebrew which has different grammar rules. The translators supply the grammar they think fits when translating it, I expect Greek grammar is better but it still does correspond to English in the way you would like it to, to make your argument work.

(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

I have written a set of articles on why I believe what I believe on some of what I hold to be the more important point s of the Bible, which is why I don't want to answer too much of this point here, but what I will say is that I suspect you may be missing the point. I wouldn't at all put it past Satan (if he exists) to divide his kingdom against it's self because Satan is evil and evil has no common sense of the king Jesus is expressing here, if he did he would think 'opposing God - worse idea EVER!'. And due to Satan obvious lack of common sense we can be rest assured that his kingdom, in fact, will not stand and that Jesus has already overthrown it.

(2 Cor 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Paul's claim here is interesting, it seems to be alluding to this Pseudepigraphal text:

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/adamnev.htm

Of course, it just as possible and perhaps probable, that the writer of the test had this verse in mind.

(Isa 14:12-17) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Shining one, son of the dawn! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit. {16} They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; {17} That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Wow, I don't know why the Satan doesn't exist crowd would do this, obviously it's not Jesus. The passage is part of of prophesy against Babylon and it's king who is the actual subject of the text, I thought this was clearly understood by everyone.

I'd like to answer more of you points but I think that's enough to be going on with, and I do not believe the Bible doesn't matter just because I understand it differently to how you do. I thus believe differently which may or may not be correct but I expect my beliefs will remain as long as I feel I can defend them.

[rosered]

Quote
(Isa 14:12-17) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Shining one, son of the dawn! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit. {16} They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; {17} That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Wow, I don't know why the Satan doesn't exist crowd would do this, obviously it's not Jesus. The passage is part of of prophesy against Babylon and it's king who is the actual subject of the text, I thought this was clearly understood by everyone.

I'd like to answer more of you points but I think that's enough to be going on with, and I do not believe the Bible doesn't matter just because I understand it differently to how you do. I thus believe differently which may or may not be correct but I expect my beliefs will remain as long as I feel I can defend them.

   Hi CST ,
    Yes how in the world did that Lucifer ?    latin  , the.only latin word in the  KJV  get in there and remain ? 


  That is why  I called that ol serpent a beast  of the sea  , many   peoples tongues and nations   and it is a prideful  lot  those kings of the earth that have  risen up in pride only to be brought low and die as men
but it was   Symbolically  under  satan's/ adversary     influence     in my opinion 

But the word "heylel" could also be derived from the primitive root word "yalal". This is mentioned far less often by scholars as the potential source for the word "heylel", but this is grammatically just as much a possibility for being the root of "heylel" as is the word "halal". If this is the correct root word, then the word "heylel" in Isaiah 14:12 is not unique at all, because the word "heylel" derived from the root word "yalal" is also found in some other verses in the Old Testament.

Supposed to be  Halal   the  howler   ,  wailer    not Lucifer the light bringer and    disguising himself angel of light  fallen angel   
It is the king of tyre   a [rock]    not the True ROCK  Jesus   Christ .

We had a  fellow  whose moniker was Halal    meaning   howler  but did not know it at the time lol , what a discovery that was


  I  hope you guys keep on leaning and sharing    your  posts .   Blessings to you all

[marie glen]

Gonna take this opportunity to throw out a bunch of various but hopefully related thoughts - more in general than specifically.

As far as the topic;  I guess I have absolutely no disagreement with everything you (Jason) have posted about this topic.  I personally believe in layers of scriptures, that things have a spiritual significance, and that some things are even HIGHLY symbolic.  On the other hand, I believe some things are literal and/or point to a literal concept, and should not be over spiritualized.   Now here's my guess.  I'd guess some in this thread think you, me, and maybe a couple others, would be over-literalizing some things;  while I'm also guessing we might think some others are over-spiritualizing some things.  All looking at the same scriptures, all believing the Bible, but still coming up with significantly different takes on it.  Strange huh?  Honestly, I personally don't truly get it, i.e., why many things aren't more clear-cut to us.  Seems we humans - even ardent believers - still can be miles apart on what I'd call non-essentials.  Confuses me.  I guess that's where living in peace with one another as "much as depends on me" comes in.  Unify as much as possible, even with - maybe in - disagreement.  Sounds like a tough trick to me, but I guess a worthy goal to strive toward. 

rosie, you and I for instance, apparently see this particular topic fairly differently ( a few others too).  But that's OK.  I value your friendship through the years, fellowship on these boards, etc., and on a topic like this, I think we'd both refuse to 'divide" over it.  It's not worth it.  We both believe in trusting and following Jesus, and He will hold us in His grasp and lead us along.  If it were an "essential" of the faith, such as if you came out one day and said "Jesus isn't the son of God", then you bet I'd divide with you over it.  Well, at first I'd try to convince you otherwise - probably briefly, actually - and if you refused to believe, then I'd move on.  Our fellowship would be hindered if not broken, ("don't even eat a meal with such a one").  OTOH, I'd encourage you to do the same, if I found myself in obvious, open apostasy.  Confront me, try to "redeem" me, if not, then shake the dust and leave me in God's hands.  But over probably 95% of the scriptures, that are obviously important, even vital - yet not the very most basic essentials of the faith - IMO, it's just not worth ripping each other up over it.  Admittedly, been there and done that, guilty.  But I don't think it's the ideal.   :2c:
-------
Oh well, anyway, to the ACTUAL OP, does Pharaoh typify satan...I don't think I've ever actually weighed in on that.  I think I'd say yes, as in typify, symbolize, represent, be a symbol of.  But mainly, I think satan is satan and pharaoh was pharaoh.  And as Forrest Gump said, "THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT".   :laugh:

   ... :cloud9: :ty: James! that was awe-some..

  I  hope you guys keep on leaning and sharing    your  posts .   Blessings to you all

   Amen Rose! :thumbsup: :gsmile: :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:Jabcat  Satan is Satan..Pharoah is pharoah..used as a pawn by the kingdom of darkness to hold Israel in captivity! :2c:

[Jason]

I believe that denying Satan's existence is by extension denying Jesus Christ's existence.  Normal serpents don't talk, nor do they tempt or beguile people.  Isn't Satan the god of this age, the prince/ruler of this world, Leviathan, Behemoth, that old dragon, the serpent, the devil?  If we're being honest when we talk about infinity, then doesn't reducing Satan to non-existent or the "carnal mind" go 100% against that idea?  It would be honest to give him the credence that Jesus Christ gave him - the prince/ruler of this world.

I believe it's blasphemy to say Satan does not exist.  Leviathan is also referred to as a whirlpool.  Any ship of faith that denies a whirlpool or storm or Destroyer's existence will be destroyed.  It probably already has been.  You don't just say that a whirlpool doesn't exist and then proceed to go through it, otherwise you get sucked in and your ship is wrecked and all the passengers die.  In the case of Euroclydon, the ship was destroyed but the passengers lived (by abandoning ship).  We literally get our term "nor'easter" from Euroclydon which signifies the STRENGTH of a storm.  Flesh is weak, Spirit is strong; so it is with Satan - the Spirit of evil.  He is the chief of the ways of God.  Namely because God is using him to bring about His (God's) will.

The difficulty in reconciling the statement in 1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan . . . moved David," with that of 2 Samuel 24:1, "the Lord moved David," is not problematic. All temptation is permitted by God, but not caused by God. When evil spirits tempt us, they do so by permission (Job 1:12, 2:6; Luke 22:31). Satan therefore provoked David to number the people, and God allowed him to do so. God allows those things which serve to advance His holy and perfect will.

When I said that Satan is Pride Himself I meant that it's his chief characteristic, he wants to be God and sadly enough, he is the god of this world.  His schemes are working, because God is letting Satan be the god of this world.  If it were not so, how would that detestable doctrine of "eternal torment" be so prevalent?  I believe when you deny Satan's existence, you deny God.

I think that Satan brings the most glory to Jesus Christ.  This is so, because the one to whom the most is forgiven will be the one who loves his Master the most.  Satan is that one.   :HeartThrob: True LOVE is unfathomable to fleshly man.  His name is Yahweh.  His Son is Jesus Christ (or Yahshua - Yah saves/delivers).  Without Satan as the Resistor, would God get Himself even nearly a fraction of the honor and glory He gets with Satan?

Ahhh, the greatness of God.  Yet we have that tiny little dot of existence known as Mount Everest... prideful man thinking that it will exist for eternity(est?) or that it is so high that it is eternally(est?) tall...
I laughed my butt off when God put this thought in my mind.

Yet, God plays with Satan as with a bird.

Shall you not be cast down even at the sight of Satan?  Job was.

"There go the ships (of faith?): there is that Leviathan, whom you have made to play therein."  - did not David know about Satan?

I would just like to finish with the scripture, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." - for I believe this is what has happened when you deny Satan's existence.

[rosered]

    Jason
  Why do you think Satan is so angry  ?
  and why does he only have a short time ?
  What do you think that means ?

  Rev 12 ...11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death.

12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them!


But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time."

13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child....

  So Satan uses  bodies to  do his dirty work  in, I see this as    Satan  in King Herod  in the above scripts .    This Beast that was ,and is and  yet to come , Like Hitler was  also  in his time  and many more  anti Christs  spirits  using the carnal mind to rule over it  and body   and your life is  focused on death  and horrid violence , hurt and harm  with  suffering and  destruction, greed   evey despised thing  ,not Life .

I actually think it is   both   an evil spirit and carnal mind that  conceive  such vile things to do   as the prey on the innocent  and  their bodies are the vessels of wrath  fitted for destruction ..

  So    the carnal mind is an enemy against the Spirit  , going to keep this short  lol , so here are some heavy hitters to at least consider       
    Satan is not your friend  or to be commended   for anything   :sigh:  , I think you may be  right about    PRIDE   and GOD hates  pride , He humbles everyone  especially Satan , I think that is why   Satan is so  angry .

  Romans 8 ...6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:

It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God....

Colossians 2:18
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind,

James 4:4
You adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God.

Leviathan made a covenant of death  with God in Job 41   But Jesus is annuling it   , so it is a short work in righteousness  in the earth    that JESUS WHOM IS LORD of lord and KING   of kings and conquers   every last enemy even Death its self   and that really burns Satan up with fury .

[jabcat]

Is anyone saying they don't believe there's a satan?  Or more so there are different interpretations as to what that is?  That's what I see, but hey, I've been wrong many times before  :laugh:

[MusicLover123]

I believe that denying Satan's existence is by extension denying Jesus Christ's existence.  Normal serpents don't talk, nor do they tempt or beguile people.  Isn't Satan the god of this age, the prince/ruler of this world, Leviathan, Behemoth, that old dragon, the serpent, the devil?  If we're being honest when we talk about infinity, then doesn't reducing Satan to non-existent or the "carnal mind" go 100% against that idea?  It would be honest to give him the credence that Jesus Christ gave him - the prince/ruler of this world.

Just to play "Devil's advocate" it could be interpreted that the carnal mind is the god of this age. Even as Believers in Christ, do we still struggle with living in the flesh? Does that not have the most power over us, which only Christ in us is greater than?

Just hypothetically speaking here. Not studied well enough to make a strong opinion, but I lean a tiny bit more than before on Satan being the flesh. At gunpoint, though, I would still say he exists. Not as some omnipotent character, but as doing God's purposes, as God is always in control.

[CST]

I believe that denying Satan's existence is by extension denying Jesus Christ's existence.  Normal serpents don't talk, nor do they tempt or beguile people.  Isn't Satan the god of this age, the prince/ruler of this world, Leviathan, Behemoth, that old dragon, the serpent, the devil?  If we're being honest when we talk about infinity, then doesn't reducing Satan to non-existent or the "carnal mind" go 100% against that idea?  It would be honest to give him the credence that Jesus Christ gave him - the prince/ruler of this world.

I believe it's blasphemy to say Satan does not exist.  Leviathan is also referred to as a whirlpool.  Any ship of faith that denies a whirlpool or storm or Destroyer's existence will be destroyed.  It probably already has been.  You don't just say that a whirlpool doesn't exist and then proceed to go through it, otherwise you get sucked in and your ship is wrecked and all the passengers die.  In the case of Euroclydon, the ship was destroyed but the passengers lived (by abandoning ship).  We literally get our term "nor'easter" from Euroclydon which signifies the STRENGTH of a storm.  Flesh is weak, Spirit is strong; so it is with Satan - the Spirit of evil.  He is the chief of the ways of God.  Namely because God is using him to bring about His (God's) will.

The difficulty in reconciling the statement in 1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan . . . moved David," with that of 2 Samuel 24:1, "the Lord moved David," is not problematic. All temptation is permitted by God, but not caused by God. When evil spirits tempt us, they do so by permission (Job 1:12, 2:6; Luke 22:31). Satan therefore provoked David to number the people, and God allowed him to do so. God allows those things which serve to advance His holy and perfect will.

When I said that Satan is Pride Himself I meant that it's his chief characteristic, he wants to be God and sadly enough, he is the god of this world.  His schemes are working, because God is letting Satan be the god of this world.  If it were not so, how would that detestable doctrine of "eternal torment" be so prevalent?  I believe when you deny Satan's existence, you deny God.

I think that Satan brings the most glory to Jesus Christ.  This is so, because the one to whom the most is forgiven will be the one who loves his Master the most.  Satan is that one.   :HeartThrob: True LOVE is unfathomable to fleshly man.  His name is Yahweh.  His Son is Jesus Christ (or Yahshua - Yah saves/delivers).  Without Satan as the Resistor, would God get Himself even nearly a fraction of the honor and glory He gets with Satan?

Ahhh, the greatness of God.  Yet we have that tiny little dot of existence known as Mount Everest... prideful man thinking that it will exist for eternity(est?) or that it is so high that it is eternally(est?) tall...
I laughed my butt off when God put this thought in my mind.

Yet, God plays with Satan as with a bird.

Shall you not be cast down even at the sight of Satan?  Job was.

"There go the ships (of faith?): there is that Leviathan, whom you have made to play therein."  - did not David know about Satan?

I would just like to finish with the scripture, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." - for I believe this is what has happened when you deny Satan's existence.

Jesus is Lord, (or should that be Jesus is LORD) . There I've just said what according to Paul can only be said by the Holy Spirit which, of course, I believe exists as I believe Jesus Christ exists and can say so. As I believe that Jesus is Christ, Jesus is law and Jesus is God. It doesn't mean I believe in the being known as Satan.

You may believe it blasphemy to say Satan does not exist, why? Blasphemy is to speak such as to malign God I'd have thought that the existence of such a being as Satan has more potential to malign God than his non-existence.

Leviathan is a word found more commonly in the Phonetic religions of Isreal's neighbours than it is in the Bible, where it only has three references which are not explained. It doesn't automatically sound like Satan given that it seems to be restricted to the sea in it's operation while Satan is clearly supposed to be active on land in human communities. I can't see where in those references Leviathan is referred to as a whirlpool, of course I believe whilpools exist they are natural phenomena and I know to avoid them.

You are missing my point about 2 Samuel, it clearly states the the LORD incited David against Israel because He was angry, it doesn't mentioned Satan. Why was God angry and why does he have to incite David against them if He is? Can't he just smite them like He did when they were led by Moses. Why does He need to involve David who He's presumably pleased with at this point? It's a very strange set up.

I'm dubious that when Paul used the term 'god of the world' he meant Satan in that case. If he did he was being a bit careless I feel given as that would give Satan a bit more credit than he is due, Satan is no sort of god and saying he is comes too close to justifying his claims on the throne which also appear to be reference in another non-biblical description of Satan (Satanael) which seems so blasphemous I don't wish to continue reading.

And at this point I'm sorry to say I feel that you are blaspheming, Satan is certainly not the one that loves God most. There are many stories about how Satan feel, none are in the Bible, of course, but they all seem to have one thing in common, that God refused Satan something and as a result he hates God and he hates us being in the image of God.

God does not need anything external to bring Him glory, He made all things and there is nothing greater than Him. He is entitled to all worship, all glory and all praise on account of being God and He will no one except Himself the opportunity to bring Him glory least they should also bring bring themselves glory and be able to boast. This is the blasphemy I believe you are committing in saying Satan will bring glory to God.

You ask if David did not know about Satan, honestly I have no idea. I doubt he understood Satan as any of us do even if your are right in you belief in Satan as a character; I doubt that the understand of that character has remained unchanging throughout time.

What do you mean you want to finish with scripture, scripture is the only authoritative text we have on this matter, so what exactly do you mean?

You wrote earlier:

I also read in a certain book that Satan is able to supercharge the air, causing certain moods to those who are in the area - there's no reason to doubt something like this, Satan has certainly been given quite a lot of power.

What book was this? Because if it wasn't the Bible than it has no authority for you to make your claim about how much power Satan has been given or the claim that there is no reason to doubt it. If it's not the Bible there's every reason to doubt it.

Do you think it is a winning argument to claim that "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."? Because the church professing it's self to be wise tends to claim roughly as you do. Thinking differently about Satan is the minority view I believe, is that anyway to gauge if it is right or not?

The Bible text does indeed often personify evil as Satan, but than the Bible also personifies a lot of other things, Death, Destruction, Sin, even Hades (I doubt John intends to give credence to the Greek god)  but I don't think that we tend to believe these actually represent real beings that exist.

[Jason]

We all know Jesus Christ is Father Yahweh's right hand.  Who is His left hand?  I believe that there has to be another power that is just about equal to Jesus Christ, which would be Satan the devil.  Well... it's fairly obvious to me.  I believe that people who say Satan doesn't exist are giving way too much credit to flesh (that they are worshipping the creation rather than the Creator), and that they are not submitting themselves under God's mighty right hand, Jesus Christ.  It just doesn't make sense to me to say that there are goats on the left hand and the righteous on the right hand, and yet saying that there is no ruler over the goats on the left hand.  Obviously God controls both of his hands, and they are both working to do His will.  I believe it is sheer arrogance to deny Satan's existence.

I think those worms (humans) who don't believe in birds (angels/spirits) will be the first to get caught in their beaks.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood.  I believe those who don't believe in Satan don't actually believe this.

So, this is my line of thinking.  Sadly, you don't get it if you say that Satan will not love Jesus Christ the most.  If he exists, then of course he is the root of sin, and being forgiven after being sent into the lake of fire and purified, then being the one who was forgiven the most, he will love his Master the most.  Even the blind Pharisee, Simon, could understand this reasoning of Jesus Christ.

Don't think that I'm saying Satan loves Jesus Christ right now.  You're not actually reading what I'm saying if that's what you think.  I'm talking about the end, when God is all in all.  We can't love God without Him first loving us.  If Satan is shown the most love by being forgiven the most, then of course he will love back the most.  Do we actually believe Jesus Christ?

Therefore if all will be reconciled, Satan will love God the most.

[eaglesway]

I am not sure eternal things quantify like that,Jason, but I do believe Satan exists, and I do believe He will be forgiven. Jesus said to the mother of James and John, when she asked if her sons could sit at His right and left in the kingdom, that it was" not His to give". Some things are way above our pay grade and imo we need not speculate beyond the pale of scripture.

Where it is clear we can be clear, where it is not we "see through a glass darkly and ought to be in a mode of "Come, let us reason together" when we discuss. I believe the existence of Satan is clear, but the exact position he will be in in the age of ages is not. In any case, we should present our opinions from the scriptures and not speak in judgmental terms of those who disagree with us.

[CST]

We all know Jesus Christ is Father Yahweh's right hand.  Who is His left hand?  I believe that there has to be another power that is just about equal to Jesus Christ, which would be Satan the devil.  Well... it's fairly obvious to me.  I believe that people who say Satan doesn't exist are giving way too much credit to flesh (that they are worshipping the creation rather than the Creator), and that they are not submitting themselves under God's mighty right hand, Jesus Christ.  It just doesn't make sense to me to say that there are goats on the left hand and the righteous on the right hand, and yet saying that there is no ruler over the goats on the left hand.  Obviously God controls both of his hands, and they are both working to do His will.  I believe it is sheer arrogance to deny Satan's existence.

I think those worms (humans) who don't believe in birds (angels/spirits) will be the first to get caught in their beaks.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood.  I believe those who don't believe in Satan don't actually believe this.

So, this is my line of thinking.  Sadly, you don't get it if you say that Satan will not love Jesus Christ the most.  If he exists, then of course he is the root of sin, and being forgiven after being sent into the lake of fire and purified, then being the one who was forgiven the most, he will love his Master the most.  Even the blind Pharisee, Simon, could understand this reasoning of Jesus Christ.

Don't think that I'm saying Satan loves Jesus Christ right now.  You're not actually reading what I'm saying if that's what you think.  I'm talking about the end, when God is all in all.  We can't love God without Him first loving us.  If Satan is shown the most love by being forgiven the most, then of course he will love back the most.  Do we actually believe Jesus Christ?

Therefore if all will be reconciled, Satan will love God the most.

Now you're getting worryingly close to making the suggestion that made me uncomfortable on Saturday. In the case of the parable of the sheep and the goats the king is the same king in both parts of the story who is the Son not the Father, there's nothing to suggest there needs to be additional agencies at each of his hands.

As EW points out James and John's mother tries to get Jesus to put her sons at His left and right hands it suggest she didn't think what was at the right side had to be in any way at odds or opposed to what is at the left.

I always felt Jesus was being poetic and if I felt there was a need for another agency to be at God's left hand I'd put the Holy Spirit there before I gave the place to Satan.

And when forgiven Satan may, in principle, love God most of all those who have been forgiven (although we'd meant to love God entirely so...) but Jesus loves God the most and He has shown it by His perfect obedience and that will never change.

[jugghead]

IMO ... just because something is not believed as truth does not automatically make it a lie, truth is truth whether it is believed or not ....

and IMO to believe what another says is a lie, and then speaks what they believe, do we not become an accuser of the brethren. a son of our father "thee accuser"?

I do my best not to accuse anyone of anything, I state what I believe and only that, if what others believe differs from what I believe, I have to put to death the accuser in me, not giving him power to accuse anyone through my tongue and I do that by merely stating why I believe what I do.

I will not and I refuse to condemn anyone to death in my own heart just because they do not believe what I believe, I will silence myself before I become an accuser.

my  :2c:

[eaglesway]

 It is possible, even when we disagree heartily on things, to discuss them. The key is that according to the rules of the forum, we ought to discuss them in a collegial (friendly and intelligible) manner, and the discussion must be hinged within the scriptures.

Speculations can be voiced, but not prophecied.....discussed but not declared, etc- because we arent here to resolve all the mysteries about which Christians have divided for thousands of years, altho resolving those mysteries is a worthy pursuit per each individual on the journey of truth.

Establishing the fact that the salvation of all is a foundation doctrine of Jesus Christ and His apostles is the real function of the board, so while (I think) we allow pretty loose reigns in discussing peripheral doctrine, there will never be room for debating, declaring and prophecying concerning them- not because that is a bad thing to do in general- but because it runs contrary to the core purpose of the forum, which is to provide a scripturally sound environment where people can learn about the salvation of all without being affronted concerning other dubious(to you or me)things they embrace. People will not accept our message if we try to reorient their beliefs on everything in one bite from varying perspectives held by the more active people on the board.

So it is never personal, nor is it generally judgmental(saying whether you are "right" or "wrong")- it is about maintaining an atmosphere conducive to our purpose- a purpose I think most of us generally share and understand.


That doesnt mean that when it comes to foundations, moderators will not say, at times, "This runs seriously contrary to our understanding of scripture and we will not allow you to teach it here". We will do that on occasion- it doesnt make us right but it does keep the parameters of the site in view- to teach the salvation of all in a concrete, rather than oblique, way....because that is a task that can be accomplished reasonably without departing from the pure milk of the Word.

I am posting this around on a few threads today to avoid longer conversations and to make sure it gets seen. Peace to all. :o)

[Jason]

I definitely didn't mean Satan will love God more than Jesus Christ, I meant more than the rest of us, due to the fact that if he is forgiven more, he will have more reason to praise and love God.  In the portion of scripture where Jesus was saying this saying of His, He obviously is the Master being referred to.  For the starting part of my last post, I suppose that it would make sense to clarify it a bit more.  Jesus Christ stands in the place of God in the case of the goats and sheep, and is the Ruler of the sheep, so in this case it would make sense to say He is both the Highest (being that God resides in Him), and also the right hand.  If that is the case, then it would make more sense (than it does before explaining this) to say that He can also have a ruler (aside from Himself) over the goats on the left hand, which would be Satan.  Yes, He is Lord over Satan too, I'm sure we all agree to that.

Now, nowhere in scripture does it actually say Satan is on the left hand of God, but it's an assumption I'm willing to make, due to the fact that the goats go on the left hand (of Jesus Christ).

Sorry if my beliefs offended you guys, obviously none of us know the entirety of the truth, but I won't change my belief that Satan is a real entity (rather than just our "carnal minds").

I suppose that these scriptures might aid my point (that Satan is a real, separate entity from humans), but I can convince nobody of anything apart from Yahwah and His Son, Yahwasua.  "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve." Luke 22:3 "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;" John 13:2 "And after the sop Satan entered into him.  Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." John 13:27

[CST]

Indeed, I don't think I've ever suggested that Jason is lying in stating his belief in the existence of a physical being called variously Satan, the Devil and Beelzebub in the Bible and Satanael, Diavolo, Mephistopheles and others in more popular and historic culture. But Jesus puts a huge amount of weight behind the importance of disseminating the Truth and it is a lesson I try to follow though, being human, am never entirely successful in doing so and can perceive three other ways people can disseminate falsehoods without realising they are doing it:

Ignorance - particularly popular ignorance like the historical belief that the world was flat.
Denial - not wishing to believe otherwise for your own purposes, like the current belief that the world is flat.
Haste - making claims with actually thinking about the implications and consequences of what you are saying (there's probably are better word for this flaw)

As humans we are susceptible to all three failings and they contribute to keeping us in the dark. The latter is particularly prevalent in discussions like this but the second is rather dangerous too. The nature of the discussion reduces the danger of the former as, if it has significant bearing, someone is likely to make you aware of that which you are ignorant of sooner rather than later.

Jason, I believe you when you say that you neither meant to say that Satan loves God right now or that he will eventually love God more than Jesus, but the absence of clarification gave this impression. It's one of the errors we make from time to time I've no I've made it before although I try not to.

Nevertheless the parable of the sheep and the God's, I imagine, refers to historical shepherding practices that I would presume the disciples, who, I remind you, are the only audience to this teaching, would recognise. There's no real need to invoke a different shepherd for the sheep then the goats, the same shepherd has charge over both, that's the point. Although, it may be slightly more complicated than that but that's not a discussion for this post.

Secondly, while I understand your reference to the teaching about love being proportionate to forgiveness I feel there is a flaw in your reasoning. While I agree that the master in the parable represents Jesus (God) Jesus also told the parable of the unforgiving debtor in which the master must certainly represent Jesus (God). But when forgiven the servant certainly does not behave like he loves God the most on account of the huge amount of forgiveness displayed in that parable, he seems to behave like he immensely resents it. Otherwise he would have behaved as he should have behaved and the parable wouldn't unfold as it does.

So while we can say those forgiven the most should love God the most, it appears that it doesn't necessarily follow that they will.

[marie glen]

Hi Jason :hiya: I don't think different views is a problem at all.. the key, I think is to agree to not agree.. we can't agree on everything.. not yet.. I think thee's things we all wish others would hear us more clearly about - some being likely right and some others likely not so right.. If self gets in there, then we have to defend our view no matter what.. rather than learn and maybe sand off some rough edges in our belief about it.. I think satan is a literal being.. Michael and Gabriel literal faithful angels.. and the Prince of Persia which stood in Gabriel's way (it was Gabriel, wasn't it? that's bad memory as I just read it the other day..) - Prince of Persia blocking Gabriel I figure is a literal spirit.. "Take as literal what can be taken as literal" ..and look for the literal meaning in the not literal :laughing7: I don't think the forum cares if we have different views.. not at all.. :Peace2: :girlheart: Welcome to the forum Jason! It's nice having you here! [And everyone of course!] And I surely agree we all have enough suspicion, accusing/slandering kind of spirit/attitude.. we don't need demons to help it along.. (tho i think they do, usually, though not always, on a global & collective scale however.)

[Jason]

I would just like to say, that it's quite a big presumption to assume that Satan and his angels will be saved (and I'm sorry for doing so, it was presumptuous of me - though I first read it in "God's Plan For All" - a book about UR).  I am doubtful of it now.  The reason for this is that all of the blood of every righteous person who has and/or will be slain on earth is going to be shed because of these evil beings.  Yahwasua Himself said it.  He also said that they (scribes/Pharisees/Jews) are the children of Satan.  He mentioned Abel and Zacharias, and then proceeded to say that the blood of every righteous person ever killed would be on their hands - that they were going to fill up the measure of their fathers (Pharisees/Sadducees/Jews/Brood of vipers/Generation of serpents).  Essentially the whole gist of it is that this "generation" - which basically includes them, their ancestors, and their descendants - are the children of Satan.  It may be that they are actually literal devils inhabiting flesh and blood bodies.  I have to say I'm inclined to believe so now.  Yahwasua said that Judas (for example) IS a devil - not that he was being possessed by one.  "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" John 6:70 - yes, Satan possessed him as well, but the meaning that I get from this is that he actually was a devil inhabiting a flesh and blood body.

All things are possible for Yahwah, so it's possible that Satan and his devils will be saved (after paying for their crimes) but at the same time, are there not some vessels fitted for destruction?

We all know that it's Yahwah's will to save all men (humans), but what about devils?  I'm not quite so sure anymore.

I think it's a lot easier to argue the case for all men (humans) being saved (the world) than it is to argue for the entire creation/universe.

Here's the thing; these scribes/Pharisees knew Yahwasua is the Son of the highest God - Yahwah, yet they called Him a devil.  They knew He was going around doing miracles, healing, etc.  This race/generation of murderers of everyone who will ever be killed were calling the Holy Spirit [the Spirit of Yahwah, the self-existent One, the Father of Yahwasua and His brothers/sisters the Eloheem who together all received of Yahwah's Holy Spirit (the fullness residing in Yahwasua)] the spirit of Beelzebub/Satan.  From what I can see, this particular race or generation is responsible for "that great city Babylon - and in her was found the blood of all that were slain upon the earth" - literally every murder that ever happens.

Yes, Yahwah is not a respecter of persons, and it may be that He will save even Satan and his devils, but since we don't know if it's Yahwah's will to save them it takes quite a leap of faith.  I guess we don't know for sure if it's His will to save them and so I definitely don't want to presume such a thing.

The matter of the evil angels' salvation seems to be a stumbling-block for me believing in universal salvation.  I have no doubt about the Power of Yahwah, just doubt about whether it's His will to save them.  It's quite an odd thing to think about what they will have to suffer if they are really to be heirs of salvation (in addition to all humanity).  "We are perfected through suffering."  Is the lake of fire a mirror of pain that reflects their own acts back upon them?  Will they feel the exact same pain as they inflicted?  We know that you reap what you sow - and this is a Galatians epistle teaching (from Paul - the biggest biblical proponent of universal salvation), so that would seem logical.  I guess my point is basically this, since Yahwah is not a respecter of persons, then those who do evil will have their evil repaid to them and that's the fact of the matter.  Then, if the evil angels were to be allowed into the Kingdom of heaven, wouldn't they have to also do "the Work of God" - which is believing on the name of his Son Yahwasua and loving one another.  Will they do this in the lake of fire?  I suppose all of this amounts to, "why not just believe all will be saved and stop asking questions?" and perhaps this is the whole point of all of this dialogue FOR PAUL SAID, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus (Yahwasua) Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2

Anyway, sorry for all presumptions on my part.  "Let all men be liars, and God be true."? :footmouth: (oddly enough we have no autographs (as far as I know - have I actually seen them?)), so for all we know, anything and everything we know could be wrong) - and herein does Paul's proclamation that LOVE is what matters most become most important (though that's how it should always be), for everything else will fade away

[GodIsLove]

Jason said:

"so for all we know, anything and everything we know could be wrong) - and herein does Paul's proclamation that LOVE is what matters most become most important (though that's how it should always be), for everything else will fade away"

This is often my thought. I try to put my trust and faith in God and try to love, and the rest is just noise sometimes.  Try is the key word, I feel this life is such a struggle sometimes.

One passage that gives hope of the salvation of all created beings is Romans:

consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.


The inclusivity of "the creation" is what stands out to me.

Like I mentioned in some other posts, I don't feel like I know (or any of us truly that know) the answers to all of these mysteries, such as the nature of evil/Satan/demons/angels, among other theological questions. Though Christians are supposed to be "one body" there are something like 33,000 Christian denominations, I'm sure divided over all these details that, as some like to say, are us trying to see "through the glass darkly."

One thing that I feel at peace with since believing in UR is that we don't have to be "right" to be "saved" and avoid "hell." 

Just my  :2c: