Reading the account of the plagues of Egypt in the OT with Moses, Pharaoh, and the children of Israel, it seems to me that Pharaoh typifies Satan.
What I mean is that there are certain plagues where Pharaoh hardened his heart, and others where God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God says that He raised up Pharaoh for this very purpose: to show forth His signs and wonders. Could it be the same with Satan, the devil? (to a much greater extent)
I am just wondering if others think the same. (yes, I believe in UR)
I am curious because I'm sure there are many who would say they will never forgive Satan. (I believe they will forgive him through Jesus Christ, such as how the Jewish lady in one of your videos couldn't forgive the Nazi except through Jesus Christ's power.)
Quote from: Jason on March 02, 2018, 04:10:40 AM
What I mean is that there are certain plagues where Pharaoh hardened his heart, and others where God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God says that He raised up Pharaoh for this very purpose: to show forth His signs and wonders. Could it be the same with Satan, the devil? (to a much greater extent)
Quite likely - I.M.O satan given a task and the power to carry that out to the letter.
1 John 3;8 " The one who sins is of the devil because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
THE SON OF GOD APPEARED FOR THIS PURPOSE;
THAT HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL."
IMO ... by giving "the traducer" a name (the devil) and by giving "the accuser" a name (Satan) and since the first thing that comes to mind with these two is "evil" we tend to forget their original meanings:
traducer means: one who speaks maliciously and falsely of; slander;defame
accuser means: one who accuses
when the words traducer and accuser are used; it describes all of mankind
but when the words (names) are used (the devil or Satan); we tend to only assign them to the evilest of people throughout history
So how crafty and subtle is the carnal mind that it can take the focus off itself and deny that it is not the devil, yet it traduces (speaks maliciously and falsely of others) and also deny that it is not Satan, yet it accuses others.
IMO ..... the "carnal mind" is the serpent, it is the devil, it is Satan and of course the first thing the carnal mind does is deny that this is true, the "carnal mind" always finds someone or something else to blame so it is not held accountable.
and this same principle applies to the word "evil", its original meaning means: hurtful; by using the word "hurtful" it can describe all of mankind, but use the word "evil" and it is assigned to describe a much smaller group of people.
How crafty is the carnal mind to use a more intense description (evil) to take the focus off itself which is included in the subtle description (hurtful).
We all became the enemy of God and God let it happen to show His glory, to show us what He is capable of doing and what I fully believe it is: He is capable of saving us from ourselves.
I have no idea how long this post might stay up here before it is deleted and if I get booted for saying this, but I can no longer hold back what I have been convinced of.
Blessings to all if I am no longer a member here.
Romans 9
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
:iagree: For me , can agree with everyone of you to be honest .
Satans power , would not have any if it were not given from Above . God is in total and complete control .
What makes satan, satan ? lacking the love of God in them or very little in my opinion .
Being in the wrong [satan] siding with evil , but to not stay in the wrong , choosing to do good and cover the evil with good / love / Blood of Jesus till we can be just like Jesus .
It says everyone is naked before Gods eyes and laid bare , open [heart] .
How can the second death have no power over you or harm you as the scriptures profess to us
If we were not letting satan rule us or offended and hurt over every little thing someone does that is not to our liking ?
Boy does that not sound like everyone but JESUS CHRIST ? :eek: having the mind of Christ you can begin to overcome the world .... it is about overcoming the world in death and laying in wickedness right ?
Blessed is he whom is not offended because of ME ..
the Truth offends so many Cognate: 4624 skandalízō – properly, set a snare ("stumbling-block"); (figuratively) "to hinder right conduct or thought; to cause to stumble" – literally, "to fall into a trap" (Abbott-Smith). See 4625 (skandalon).
Thank you all for revealing some more truth that is setting us free from error /sin .
Ps ,
My hubby made a good point too .
He said , If you keep it simple and apply what you read in the bible to yourself and your own life , than you will have something to work with .
I have to agree , When you see evil /bad in others or in the scriptures or in the world and always apply it to them [figures ] or history as past or future as some big uprising , than we fail to see what we see in the mirror , the bible is like a mirror a law to refect what manner of spirit we are of .
That is what was stumbling the Scribes Pharisees and hypocrites sons of the devil so badly IMO.
They were saying it right , great swelling words of truth , but never applied it to themselves and do not do as they do .
Jesus said to those whom have ears to hear what the Spirit of truth is saying .
I recall the first time I read Jesus calling Peter Satan and to get behind him ,stumbling block , that was not doing Gods will ,
but doing what mankind does and that is making themselves comfortable and right .
What a rebuke huh?
Says JESUS CHRIST / TRUTH is a stumbling block and rock of offence for everyone ... now that is a mind blower :eek:
I personally think and could be judged for being wrong her by the LORD and fellow mankind
But folks give to much power to satan / adversary / false accuser / tempter / and slanderer
I am guilty of siding and being a partaker of all the above bad things and a world of hurt
Whom does not understand bitterness and fear that someone is evil and have nothing to do with them because you see them as the devil and yet the very thing we are doing is devilish in nature ?
Hurt people, hurt people and need healed , because our true nature is to LOVE and be loved .
GOD IS LOVE and the only source of power to love completely especially our enemies , and thought of this before
what if the greatest enemy of all was hidden within us ? but Christ comes to bind the strong man up and clean the house
and have us inspected [7 eyes of the Spirit] but if that man leaves his house to wander in dry places seeking rest and finding none , but returns with 7 more wicked than himself , the house will become desolate ...Babylons curses
Because we did not obey the Lord in stay in your cleaned house [virgin /mind / heart] but seeked Babylon [Isaiah ch 4 & chapter 5 ] clarifies Jesus parable of the strong man of the house Adams rule , in Adam all die ,
Till CHRIST comes to destroy the wicked one , that man of sin with the breath of His coming ,with the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE
and the devil is being burning up / works of evil against God and mankind in our hearts ? [lake of fire ] Jesus is our rest and our peace and all our Hope to Live and He come to send fire upon the earth and a great Division of two laws death & life that are ours . Just some thoughts to hopefully consider also , as to where we are at on this road that leads to Christ /life .
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2018, 12:46:10 PM
My hubby made a good point too .
He said , If you keep it simple and apply what you read in the bible to yourself and your own life , than you will have something to work with .
It's never that simple.
If you only understand
and do "love your neighbor and believe Christ died and rose from the dead" then you don't have to read to read the rest of the Bible. Then you are on the road to heaven so to speak.
But most of Chritianity isn't even able to do that.
They believ Christ rose because that's a freebie.
Helping the neighbor costs, so that should be avoided at all costs...
So most Christians are on the highway tp LoF :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 02, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2018, 12:46:10 PM
My hubby made a good point too .
He said , If you keep it simple and apply what you read in the bible to yourself and your own life , than you will have something to work with .
It's never that simple.
If you only understand and do "love your neighbor and believe Christ died and rose from the dead" then you don't have to read to read the rest of the Bible. Then you are on the road to heaven so to speak.
But most of Chritianity isn't even able to do that.
They believ Christ rose because that's a freebie.
Helping the neighbor costs, so that should be avoided at all costs...
So most Christians are on the highway tp LoF :2c:
Well if all those whom never had a bible in the first place are in heaven already , I would say that everything come from God
and to God it returns back to Him that was His in the first place to do with whatever He wants with it .
Jesus Christ is the greatest servant of all and serves everyone and God first and foremost , doing everything He asks of HIM ..
He was the purest of pure and everyone hated Him and misunderstood him , even those that followed him , did not understand him ,
But Jesus died for the sins of the whole world , that is a heavy load to bear upon one soul , especially when he was pure and innocent of any evil doing ever . but he gave everything up and gave everything away to mankind , so many would be saved because of Him , in this life and giving them endless life to come .
Mark 10 37They answered, "Grant that one of us may sit at Your right hand and the other at Your left in Your glory."
38
"You do not know what you are asking," Jesus replied. "Can you drink the cup I will drink, or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?"
39"We can," they answered.
"You will drink the cup that I drink," Jesus said, "and you will be baptized with the baptism I undergo. 40But to sit at My right or My left is not Mine to grant.
These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."41On hearing this,
the ten became indignant with James and John. 42So Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those regarded as rulers of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them.
43
But it shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
44
and whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served,
but to serve, and
to give His life as a ransom for many." My thoughts are , it starts within you as Him cleaning up the inside first [presence of His spirit and life ] , and the outer will follow after He is ruling within
Each in their own order by His life we are raised up out of death completely in the end as we wait on Him to do it , but must obey His voice to live more and more as the Day comes to us , just as He obeyed His Fathers voice to Live
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 02, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2018, 12:46:10 PM
My hubby made a good point too .
He said , If you keep it simple and apply what you read in the bible to yourself and your own life , than you will have something to work with .
It's never that simple.
If you only understand and do "love your neighbor and believe Christ died and rose from the dead" then you don't have to read to read the rest of the Bible. Then you are on the road to heaven so to speak.
But most of Chritianity isn't even able to do that.
They believ Christ rose because that's a freebie.
Helping the neighbor costs, so that should be avoided at all costs...
So most Christians are on the highway tp LoF :2c:
It's worse than that; remember before that your expected to love God with all your heart, soul, strength. Really, all of it? How do we measure it? Do we all have the same amount? How do we know if we're not doing it right?
It's with whatever surplus we have from that 'all' we're expected to love our neighbour as ourselves (how well are we expected to love ourselves? are we excused if we don't?)
'With man it is impossible...'
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 02, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2018, 12:46:10 PM
My hubby made a good point too .
He said , If you keep it simple and apply what you read in the bible to yourself and your own life , than you will have something to work with .
It's never that simple.
If you only understand and do "love your neighbor and believe Christ died and rose from the dead" then you don't have to read to read the rest of the Bible. Then you are on the road to heaven so to speak.
But most of Chritianity isn't even able to do that.
They believ Christ rose because that's a freebie.
Helping the neighbor costs, so that should be avoided at all costs...
So most Christians are on the highway tp LoF :2c:
What she said was simple was the principle that is applied to "everything" we read in the Bible, not the simplicity of having to believe
and do only one or a few things we read in the Bible
and its not that most of Christianity isn't able to do that, "nobody" is able to do it without Christ and the works of the Holy Spirit in us
I agree with you , with man it is impossible , I think that is the whole point though , to keep asking and knocking and seeking the Lord and His help , the strength is in the Spirit , the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak , this is how we would develop a strong and faithful bond in the Christ in you the hope of glory
Coll 1 is a pretty power statement
butthis is the highlight of it ...26the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints,
27to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery,
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28We proclaim Him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. perfect is complete , there is a start of faith and we are measured by how faithful we can be in a few things
Parable of the talents Matthew 25:14–30 what will he have when He returns ?
Just some thoughts , UR it is not a ticket to freely sin and anything goes , it is just believing in the POWER OF GOD to save all mankind , conviction and chastening and comforting is all a part of the process of everyone received into His kingdom , I don't think any one is exempt , but some suffer less because they are called last and come in the last hour and miss a lot of the heat of the DAY that can mean suffering for good or evil or both , to me .
Quote from: jugghead on March 02, 2018, 06:31:56 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 02, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2018, 12:46:10 PM
My hubby made a good point too .
He said , If you keep it simple and apply what you read in the bible to yourself and your own life , than you will have something to work with .
It's never that simple.
If you only understand and do "love your neighbor and believe Christ died and rose from the dead" then you don't have to read to read the rest of the Bible. Then you are on the road to heaven so to speak.
But most of Chritianity isn't even able to do that.
They believ Christ rose because that's a freebie.
Helping the neighbor costs, so that should be avoided at all costs...
So most Christians are on the highway tp LoF :2c:
What she said was simple was the principle that is applied to "everything" we read in the Bible, not the simplicity of having to believe
and do only one or a few things we read in the Bible
and its not that most of Christianity isn't able to do that, "nobody" is able to do it without Christ and the works of the Holy Spirit in us
:thumbsup: replying at the same time ...
Many called but few are chosen :thumbsup: those that endure to the end
Paul called it a race and only one gets the prize .. many give out , the saints were overcome , along the way ...
Just some things to consider here
ah,but the serpent is more subtle/subtil than any beast of the field..and if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.. :2c:
With the human effort everyone fails , I agree it is the Lord we all will glory in ...
I do not believe anyone can fully know the LOVE OF GOD 100% yet .
I think many have come close , because those forgiven much LOVE much
The problem to me was my ego was bruised and become offended often , I knew that was not the Holy Spirit fruits of gentleness and peace and joy all those wonderful things that I read were signs of GODS LOVE working in us , but instead of getting angry all the time and accusing what I thought was the faults in others was within me :sigh: as I judged was seeing the same hypocrisy within my own soul , many times and many ways over and over again failing the tests , when tempted by satan for my own lusts and desires . and every time it was troubles and more troubles on top of them and exhausting.
Sucking the life right out of you , leaving you in tears and stressed out .
That was the only way to measure by to me ..
The standard in the Lord Jesus Christ was excellent and could never measure up without Him , So I begin to ask Him to stay , help me do this right and bless them Lord , that we can all know you , the way that pleases you ... etc , just simple steps
I do believe it is the Lord that gives everything to us by the Holy Spirit the good things and good gifts from above .
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 06:50:51 PM
ah,but the serpent is more subtle/subtil than any beast of the field..and if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.. :2c:
That is just it , sis , it bites you exactly in the same way we bite and devour others ... same measure
the Lord sends fiery serpents to bite everyone still locked up under the law , If we can see ourselves as having the same exact law of the same tree of knowledge of good and evil , as you judge so shall you be judged ..
Till you keep your eyes of Jesus and Live
simple enough to understand .
Numbers 21:6-8 "(6) And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. ... (8) And the LORD said unto Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks upon it, shall live."
:2c: I believe that the GREAT act of deliverance that God worked in the great exodus fore-shadows all mankinds deliverance from slavery to sin[desertof Sin] and
Pharoah portrayed an open display in flesh, of the invisible wicked powers and principalities[princeofthis world] that take men into captivity/slavery to sin. the
generation of Israel that come out in the exodus..were born in captivity/slavery;just as all born of Adam.
God's signs versus Pharoah's magicians lying signs.....Pharoah's/satan'sfirstborn versus God'sfirstborn.
so,yes,Pharoah portrayed in the flesh the invisible principality/throne of the wicked one...as much as any'man'can. same as Haman..the jews in captivity..but
in that instance...the plot uncovered of satan's motive..was not just slavery..but the annhilation/ 2nd death of the nation in captivity.
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 07:17:20 PM
:2c: I believe that the GREAT act of deliverance that God worked in the great exodus fore-shadows all mankinds deliverance from slavery to sin[desertof Sin] and
Pharoah portrayed an open display in flesh, of the invisible wicked powers and principalities[princeofthis world] that take men into captivity/slavery to sin. the
generation of Israel that come out in the exodus..were born in captivity/slavery;just as all born of Adam.
God's signs versus Pharoah's magicians lying signs.....Pharoah's/satan'sfirstborn versus God'sfirstborn.
so,yes,Pharoah portrayed in the flesh the invisible principality/throne of the wicked one...as much as any'man'can. same as Haman..the jews in captivity..but
in that instance...the plot uncovered of satan's motive..was not just slavery..but the annhilation/ 2nd death of the nation in captivity.
I do agree the origin of sin /error comes from the lie told by the serpent , you will not surly die ,and suffer while going though it till you die
God showed disappointment and us punishment for disobedience , like any good parent would .
turning one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so in the Day of the Lord the spirit will be saved .
It is mankind's futile attempt to make amends , When God our Father just wanted us to believe HIM in the first place .
:2c:
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2018, 06:43:44 PM
Just some thoughts , UR it is not a ticket to freely sin and anything goes , it is just believing in the POWER OF GOD to save all mankind , conviction and chastening and comforting is all a part of the process of everyone received into His kingdom , I don't think any one is exempt , but some suffer less because they are called last and come in the last hour and miss a lot of the heat of the DAY that can mean suffering for good or evil or both , to me .
and THAT is the POWER OF FAITH
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 06:50:51 PM
ah,but the serpent is more subtle/subtil than any beast of the field..and if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.. :2c:
so close that it is in the flesh of which His Spirit shall overcome
Paul spoke of'sin'slaw'in his flesh..sold under sin...the 'warring' in his body members.the 'good' he desires todo..unable to do..that which hedoes notdesire todo
he found himselfdoing.......and the blessed hope of deliverance from that very'body'of death. sin's law,captivity/sold unto slavery and death..and redemption.
if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.ever be seeking something..and look all over the house...look in the same place and check 3 times..and it's not there?
check once again..and there it is.! Jesus must open blind eyes..deaf ears....
When Adam was created He was in Gods image and a son of God , [ male & female ] no mention of Eve in the 7 days of creation and yet they were naked before God and innocent , and no mention of any children yet .
It was not until GOD put the deep sleep of Adam was she drawn out of his side /a rib as a helpmeet ,succour assistance and support in times of hardship and distress.
aid, help, a helping hand, assistance to him , the weaker vessel and what the beast used to , work of their hands to tempt them with
How many times do we see in the scriptures that they did not repent of the work of their hands and made gods of idols of
their own doing ?
Which are nothing , like the same vanity of life all mankind are subjected to ...
Mankind may not be responsible for the work of their hands , but it sure has brought a lot of temptation and suffering though them , knowing good and evil .
We are covered by the blood of Jesus / The Lamb of God whom takes away the sins of the whole world .
By the works of the FATHER THOUGH THE SON making it new and restoring that which broke the breach of the covenant with mankind in the first place showing us openly we can do nothing without God our true Heavenly Father .
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 07:17:20 PM
:2c: I believe that the GREAT act of deliverance that God worked in the great exodus fore-shadows all mankinds deliverance from slavery to sin[desertof Sin] and
Pharoah portrayed an open display in flesh, of the invisible wicked powers and principalities[princeofthis world] that take men into captivity/slavery to sin. the
generation of Israel that come out in the exodus..were born in captivity/slavery;just as all born of Adam.
God's signs versus Pharoah's magicians lying signs.....Pharoah's/satan'sfirstborn versus God'sfirstborn.
so,yes,Pharoah portrayed in the flesh the invisible principality/throne of the wicked one...as much as any'man'can. same as Haman..the jews in captivity..but
in that instance...the plot uncovered of satan's motive..was not just slavery..but the annhilation/ 2nd death of the nation in captivity.
Amen sheila :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 07:45:38 PM
Paul spoke of'sin'slaw'in his flesh..sold under sin...the 'warring' in his body members.the 'good' he desires todo..unable to do..that which hedoes notdesire todo
he found himselfdoing.......and the blessed hope of deliverance from that very'body'of death. sin's law,captivity/sold unto slavery and death..and redemption.
if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.ever be seeking something..and look all over the house...look in the same place and check 3 times..and it's not there?
check once again..and there it is.! Jesus must open blind eyes..deaf ears....
Exactly , Paul was testifying of WHOM WILL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH , Paul was experiencing His cross and begging for forgiveness in humility knowing the wrong the Lord bore for his sake . Romans 8
He knew satan was destroying his body on that cross to accuse us of weakness and error , to the world it looks so pitiful because we judge according to the flesh , but it was though the Spirit that all salvation would come though . Paul understood this concept .
I THANK THE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST would and acknowledging the power of God to save through the SON /SUN Light of the world , he left death and darkness behind Him when He met the Lord LIFE Himself .
and go on the tell of the good news of the gospel knowing that if Gods grace would save him a murderer , God could save anyone at any time and any place ....
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 07:45:38 PM
Paul spoke of'sin'slaw'in his flesh..sold under sin...the 'warring' in his body members.the 'good' he desires todo..unable to do..that which hedoes notdesire todo
he found himselfdoing.......and the blessed hope of deliverance from that very'body'of death. sin's law,captivity/sold unto slavery and death..and redemption.
if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.ever be seeking something..and look all over the house...look in the same place and check 3 times..and it's not there?
check once again..and there it is.! Jesus must open blind eyes..deaf ears....
What Paul wrote in Romans 7 is exactly what came to my mind also
Quote from: jugghead on March 02, 2018, 08:01:08 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 07:45:38 PM
Paul spoke of'sin'slaw'in his flesh..sold under sin...the 'warring' in his body members.the 'good' he desires todo..unable to do..that which hedoes notdesire todo
he found himselfdoing.......and the blessed hope of deliverance from that very'body'of death. sin's law,captivity/sold unto slavery and death..and redemption.
if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.ever be seeking something..and look all over the house...look in the same place and check 3 times..and it's not there?
check once again..and there it is.! Jesus must open blind eyes..deaf ears....
What Paul wrote in Romans 7 is exactly what came to my mind also
I agree :iagree: Love the Roman writings , I love the Lords works and ways and mostly His amazing grace upon us all .
I never ever want to be or appear prideful , I love you all and love what is shared by everyone , it helps us all and want the salvation of all more than ever , I pray for this all the time to the Father . :HeartThrob:
The 14th of this month will mark the two year point of God bringing Scherryl home .... yes, I miss her input and insights into His word and I greatly miss her companionship in that every time I walked through the door she greeted me with a hug and a kiss and while I was home how she greatly appreciated every little thing I did for her .....
but I rejoice moreso that she has been delivered from the body of death and is in the presence of our Lord and Savior, learning more and actually experiencing His Love
there is no way that I would want her back here and take her away from that
Just wanted to share that
Rick
Quote from: jugghead on March 02, 2018, 08:26:32 PM
The 14th of this month will mark the two year point of God bringing Scherryl home .... yes, I miss her input and insights into His word and I greatly miss her companionship in that every time I walked through the door she greeted me with a hug and a kiss and while I was home how she greatly appreciated every little thing I did for her .....
but I rejoice moreso that she has been delivered from the body of death and is in the presence of our Lord and Savior, learning more and actually experiencing His Love
there is no way that I would want her back here and take her away from that
Just wanted to share that
Rick
Amen , bro J
:friendstu: She was a sweet heart for sure .
A whole lots more in store , I believe !!
:thumbsup: Rick,I'l lbe so happy when He delivers His whole creation! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 09:06:13 PM
:thumbsup: Rick,I'l lbe so happy when He delivers His whole creation! :HeartThrob:
Me too
Quote from: jugghead on March 02, 2018, 09:41:51 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 09:06:13 PM
:thumbsup: Rick,I'l lbe so happy when He delivers His whole creation! :HeartThrob:
Me too
I as well :HeartThrob:
I really enjoyed reading this thread and reading everyone's posts, all of them. They were all from the heart, and no quarreling or pride. Thank God I found this site and get to be a part of this community! Love you all!
Quote from: Jason on March 02, 2018, 04:10:40 AM
Reading the account of the plagues of Egypt in the OT with Moses, Pharaoh, and the children of Israel, it seems to me that Pharaoh typifies Satan.
What I mean is that there are certain plagues where Pharaoh hardened his heart, and others where God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God says that He raised up Pharaoh for this very purpose: to show forth His signs and wonders. Could it be the same with Satan, the devil? (to a much greater extent)
I am just wondering if others think the same. (yes, I believe in UR)
I am curious because I'm sure there are many who would say they will never forgive Satan. (I believe they will forgive him through Jesus Christ, such as how the Jewish lady in one of your videos couldn't forgive the Nazi except through Jesus Christ's power.)
..sorry I haven't read the rest of the thread yet.. my comment will likely be waay behind.. But I never thought of Pharoah this way before! don't know why not..
I've heard of the King of Babylon, in the verse in Isaiah 14, where the KJV Bible calls him Lucifer (not a very good translation) and the King of Tyre, about walking about in Eden, and there's long term
controversy different ways of seeing them. Are they types of Satan? I think they likely are. I don't really believe in biblical coincidence.. I never thought of wondering about Pharoah in that way.. But it sure seems to fit. Perhaps every tyrant, etc. is a type of the arch enemy. :iagree: I think all will be forgiven - by all (yet with some satisfaction for victims on judgment day when the cruel and truly wicked experience the torment of truly facing their condition of heart and character? And they tremble before God! :ticked: Yet, they too will find room to repent and be reconciled and born again as beloved children and servants of God. Not that every victim is yet ready to hear that..)
That's another
controversy sorry not quite controversy.. Who, or what, is Satan? Which always makes me think of Rev 12:9,
And the great dragon was thrown out, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, deceiving the whole inhabited world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Young's Literal Translation
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called 'Devil,' and 'the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.the interlinear - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/12-9.htm
Quote from: jugghead on March 02, 2018, 09:39:05 AM
IMO ... by giving "the traducer" a name (the devil) and by giving "the accuser" a name (Satan) and since the first thing that comes to mind with these two is "evil" we tend to forget their original meanings:
traducer means: one who speaks maliciously and falsely of; slander;defame
accuser means: one who accuses
I think this also refers to that spirit of accusation and slander between people.. making division. Or making for division, depending on how one looks at it.
Quote
when the words traducer and accuser are used; it describes all of mankind
:iagree: ..but I still think there are 'dark entities', fallen, rebel angels/messengers of God.. Which in no way means we are not accountable for our own actions.. the playing field fo them is more global than personal, imo. I also believe there are the faithful angels. The rebel ones, chosen by God to take the rebel path, I believe for the purpose of speeding things along in this incubator/inoculation.. :gsmile:
Quote
We all became the enemy of God and God let it happen to show His glory, to show us what He is capable of doing and what I fully believe it is: He is capable of saving us from ourselves.
Absolutely!! :iagree: ...also, I believe, plainly showing everyone good from evil / what works from what can never work.. Which, pretty much, I believe, is the same thing..
:Peace2: :girlheart:
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2018, 06:43:44 PM
I agree with you , with man it is impossible , I think that is the whole point though , to keep asking and knocking and seeking the Lord and His help , the strength is in the Spirit , the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak , this is how we would develop a strong and faithful bond in the Christ in you the hope of glory
Coll 1 is a pretty power statement
butthis is the highlight of it ...26the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints,
27to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery,
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28We proclaim Him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. perfect is complete , there is a start of faith and we are measured by how faithful we can be in a few things
Parable of the talents Matthew 25:14–30 what will he have when He returns ?
Just some thoughts , UR it is not a ticket to freely sin and anything goes , it is just believing in the POWER OF GOD to save all mankind , conviction and chastening and comforting is all a part of the process of everyone received into His kingdom , I don't think any one is exempt , but some suffer less because they are called last and come in the last hour and miss a lot of the heat of the DAY that can mean suffering for good or evil or both , to me .
....Amen! :thumbsup:
Quote
With the human effort everyone fails , I agree it is the Lord we all will glory in ...
I do not believe anyone can fully know the LOVE OF GOD 100% yet .
Quote
It is mankind's futile attempt to make amends , When God our Father just wanted us to believe HIM in the first place .
Amen, amen! :thumbsup: :gsmile:
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 06:50:51 PM
ah,but the serpent is more subtle/subtil than any beast of the field..and if it would have been a snake it would have bit you.. :2c:
Quote
:2c: I believe that the GREAT act of deliverance that God worked in the great exodus fore-shadows all mankinds deliverance from slavery to sin[desertof Sin] and
Pharoah portrayed an open display in flesh, of the invisible wicked powers and principalities[princeofthis world] that take men into captivity/slavery to sin. the
generation of Israel that come out in the exodus..were born in captivity/slavery;just as all born of Adam.
God's signs versus Pharoah's magicians lying signs.....Pharoah's/satan'sfirstborn versus God'sfirstborn.
so,yes,Pharoah portrayed in the flesh the invisible principality/throne of the wicked one...as much as any'man'can. same as Haman..the jews in captivity..but
in that instance...the plot uncovered of satan's motive..was not just slavery..but the annhilation/ 2nd death of the nation in captivity.
Amen, Sheila! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jugghead on March 02, 2018, 08:26:32 PM
The 14th of this month will mark the two year point of God bringing Scherryl home .... yes, I miss her input and insights into His word and I greatly miss her companionship in that every time I walked through the door she greeted me with a hug and a kiss and while I was home how she greatly appreciated every little thing I did for her .....
but I rejoice moreso that she has been delivered from the body of death and is in the presence of our Lord and Savior, learning more and actually experiencing His Love
there is no way that I would want her back here and take her away from that
Just wanted to share that
Rick
Quote from: sheila on March 02, 2018, 09:06:13 PM
:thumbsup: Rick,I'l lbe so happy when He delivers His whole creation! :HeartThrob:
Amen, sister, you said it..
Bless you brother Rick, :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
glenda marie
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 03, 2018, 01:20:57 AM
I really enjoyed reading this thread and reading everyone's posts, all of them. They were all from the heart, and no quarreling or pride. Thank God I found this site and get to be a part of this community! Love you all!
Awww, what a sweetie you are, GodIsLove! :gsmile: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
It is always about the spirit world, when it comes to conflict, even though the words might be coming from a human.
Our relationship needs to be, in my opinion, a triangle, in the sense, from us to God, and then we react to others. Prayer puts us in that communication with God first, before we respond to others.
Even when we don't think to pray, God can intervene and give us a window into His will, in response to others, when He sees the need, I would think.
Ephesians 6:
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18Pray in the Spirit at all times, with every kind of prayer and petition. To this end, stay alert with all perseverance in your prayers for all the saints.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 03, 2018, 03:20:04 PM
It is always about the spirit world, when it comes to conflict, even though the words might be coming from a human.
Our relationship needs to be, in my opinion, a triangle, in the sense, from us to God, and then we react to others. Prayer puts us in that communication with God first, before we respond to others.
Even when we don't think to pray, God can intervene and give us a window into His will, in response to others, when He sees the need, I would think.
Ephesians 6:
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18Pray in the Spirit at all times, with every kind of prayer and petition. To this end, stay alert with all perseverance in your prayers for all the saints.
D.
Amen sister D ,
It is Lifting up the Lord to draw us all up into One / Himself as an everlasting Kingdom that cannot be destroyed , the only One whom can and does .
All about praying in the Spirit of Light and Life :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Jugghead: "IMO ..... the "carnal mind" is the serpent, it is the devil, it is Satan and of course the first thing the carnal mind does is deny that this is true, the "carnal mind" always finds someone or something else to blame so it is not held accountable."
They're very similar yet different. Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" and he and his spirits work in the children of disobedience. You can't just reduce him to the "carnal mind." If he and his evil messengers were not actually spirits that can possess people, there would be much less evil in the world. They possess people with ideas and speeches, subtly changing the truth a little bit, or putting some reward to make people do the wrong thing. I also read in a certain book that Satan is able to supercharge the air, causing certain moods to those who are in the area - there's no reason to doubt something like this, Satan has certainly been given quite a lot of power.
It would be better to say, "The carnal mind is highly SUSCEPTIBLE to Satan and his evil spirits."
What you posted is NOT true. Satan may be "the WORST spiritual mind" - but he's not flesh and blood nor is he the "carnal mind."
Also: Jesus Himself clearly talked to Satan (when He was tempted and other times as well). If you and I can't see these spirits, it's because it has not been given to us to see them. You still need to believe that they are there. "And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha." - he didn't just see some "wrong theologies" or that the encamping host of Syria were "carnal-minded" - he saw the Hosts of God, true, he didn't see Satan (or it doesn't mention it), but Jesus saw and talked to Satan (many, many times).
You should read the whole Bible. God is the Father of spirits and they are all under His control. Yes, He can and DOES send lying spirits to convince people to do and believe what He intends. There is one truth, namely Jesus Christ in Whom The Holy Spirit, God the Father dwells. He is lord of all - including that spirit named Satan.
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." - the faith given from God, and none other
So I saw a great red, angry eye in the air above me, it was about the size of me or larger. I don't even know or remember if this was a dream or vision or if I was awake. I had been saying in my mind, "Get thee hence, Satan." quite a lot in those days. There certainly are evil spirits and good spirits. This was quite a terrifying dream/vision/sight. It happened maybe a year ago at this point. I just wanted to add from my own experience that spirits are real, they're not just some "state of mind." You are a spirit, inside a living soul - a body. May that Everlasting Spirit of Truth lead us into all truth. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Jason on March 03, 2018, 07:48:42 PM
Jugghead: "IMO ..... the "carnal mind" is the serpent, it is the devil, it is Satan and of course the first thing the carnal mind does is deny that this is true, the "carnal mind" always finds someone or something else to blame so it is not held accountable."
They're very similar yet different. Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" and he and his spirits work in the children of disobedience. You can't just reduce him to the "carnal mind." If he and his evil messengers were not actually spirits that can possess people, there would be much less evil in the world. They possess people with ideas and speeches, subtly changing the truth a little bit, or putting some reward to make people do the wrong thing. I also read in a certain book that Satan is able to supercharge the air, causing certain moods to those who are in the area - there's no reason to doubt something like this, Satan has certainly been given quite a lot of power.
It would be better to say, "The carnal mind is highly SUSCEPTIBLE to Satan and his evil spirits."
What you posted is NOT true. Satan may be "the WORST spiritual mind" - but he's not flesh and blood nor is he the "carnal mind."
Also: Jesus Himself clearly talked to Satan (when He was tempted and other times as well). If you and I can't see these spirits, it's because it has not been given to us to see them. You still need to believe that they are there. "And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha." - he didn't just see some "wrong theologies" or that the encamping host of Syria were "carnal-minded" - he saw the Hosts of God, true, he didn't see Satan (or it doesn't mention it), but Jesus saw and talked to Satan (many, many times).
You should read the whole Bible. God is the Father of spirits and they are all under His control. Yes, He can and DOES send lying spirits to convince people to do and believe what He intends. There is one truth, namely Jesus Christ in Whom The Holy Spirit, God the Father dwells. He is lord of all - including that spirit named Satan.
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." - the faith given from God, and none other
If what I have come to understand and believe is a lie then I shall die and be cleansed of it
and this same principle applies to you as well
If what you have come to understand and believe is a lie then you shall die and be cleansed of it
To God be the glory in the due time appointed to all by Him
the subtil serpent and fine distinctions....I see no reason for anyone to die in the sins that Jesus removed..and took away..rather..the light come and the serpent flee.....
satan has power to put his thoughts in the corruptible image of man..and the decieved become decievers...man behaves as a beast when possesing and being possessed of
the adversary and hismind. :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on March 03, 2018, 09:37:19 PM
If what I have come to understand and believe is a lie then I shall die and be cleansed of it
and this same principle applies to you as well
If what you have come to understand and believe is a lie then you shall die and be cleansed of it
To God be the glory in the due time appointed to all by Him
I would rather be cleansed of it right now, by repenting of it, if what I believe is indeed a lie. I suppose that we each believe many small lies while yet knowing the truth that all will be saved by Father Yahweh through His Son, Jesus Christ, in due time. We're "as deceivers, and yet true" 2 Cor 6:8
My point was simply that though the "carnal mind" is like Satan (they have the same nature), yet he is a separate entity. I gave a scriptural example that spirits exist, and that Satan is one of them. These are big differences to me, and it's very important to note the difference. Jesus commanded the spirits to come out of people, and they came out. An idea doesn't "come out of" somebody and have a visible appearance. The people could see the spirits when they came out of the possessed.
Then repent and be cleansed. There are a lot of things that are wrong with the concept of Satan many of which are demonstrated in your post above.
Many stories exist about Satan in society that inform our concept, Faust, Robert Jonhson, The Divine Comedy, even Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey; none of them have explicit support from the Bible, so what parts of our concept do have explicit support from the Bible? Well, none so far as I can tell, the word Satan appears even now and then whenever it does people have read it as a proper noun of the same being and tried to put all the bits together and tried to formulate a narrative about this being which the Bible only seems to speak about implicitly at best.
Given the capacity of these beings to lead people astray in the way you say they can and like to think that God would have given us some better warning and information about this great enemy which would be preserved clearly in the Bible.
You say that if it wasn't for Satan we'd be a lot less evil but that's just the problem, who's to say how much less evil we'd be and who'd have the nerve to measure it. If the carnal mind is enough to put us at estrangement from God that's evil and dangerous enough, we don't need some invisible agency we don't know whether we've encountered or not to give us an excuse for our supposed 'worst' behavior. That makes it hard to know where our responsibility ends and therefore what it's justified to correct us for, or indeed, what the point would be of doing so.
Quote from: Jason on March 02, 2018, 04:10:40 AM
Reading the account of the plagues of Egypt in the OT with Moses, Pharaoh, and the children of Israel, it seems to me that Pharaoh typifies Satan.
What I mean is that there are certain plagues where Pharaoh hardened his heart, and others where God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God says that He raised up Pharaoh for this very purpose: to show forth His signs and wonders. Could it be the same with Satan, the devil? (to a much greater extent)
I am just wondering if others think the same. (yes, I believe in UR)
I am curious because I'm sure there are many who would say they will never forgive Satan. (I believe they will forgive him through Jesus Christ, such as how the Jewish lady in one of your videos couldn't forgive the Nazi except through Jesus Christ's power.)
Yes, Pharoh typifies Satan. You should realize that almost everything in the Old Testament is typifying. The understanding of this is called Bible Typology. The Israelite bondage in Egypt typifies the bondage of the flesh to sin. And their exodus typifies the deliverance from sin. After which there was the 40 years in the wilderness where they suffered tribulations. The crossing of the Red Sea typifies baptism. :2c:
:thumbsup: Israel...typifying the glory of the promised land..while remaining in flesh in this earth expierenced these tribulations. BUTitis really a three day journey....
the three days Christ lay in the heart of the earth before rising to recieve his kingdom. 40 days Jesus fast in the wilderness and was tempted ofsatan.
then the 'wars' totake the land....wars and desolation will continue until the end[our own personal battle of armagheddon for the possesion of our souls[bringing under
subjection to Christ]against powers and principalities. :2c:
EX[it the]ODUS[t]..our spirits return home unto God.
Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2018, 05:39:55 PM
Quote from: Jason on March 02, 2018, 04:10:40 AM
Reading the account of the plagues of Egypt in the OT with Moses, Pharaoh, and the children of Israel, it seems to me that Pharaoh typifies Satan.
What I mean is that there are certain plagues where Pharaoh hardened his heart, and others where God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God says that He raised up Pharaoh for this very purpose: to show forth His signs and wonders. Could it be the same with Satan, the devil? (to a much greater extent)
I am just wondering if others think the same. (yes, I believe in UR)
I am curious because I'm sure there are many who would say they will never forgive Satan. (I believe they will forgive him through Jesus Christ, such as how the Jewish lady in one of your videos couldn't forgive the Nazi except through Jesus Christ's power.)
Yes, Pharoh typifies Satan. You should realize that almost everything in the Old Testament is typifying. The understanding of this is called Bible Typology. The Israelite bondage in Egypt typifies the bondage of the flesh to sin. And their exodus typifies the deliverance from sin. After which there was the 40 years in the wilderness where they suffered tribulations. The crossing of the Red Sea typifies baptism.
Thanks trettp :thumbsup:
That is how I also can see many things explained also from comparing scriptures descriptions and
So many things connect to other scriptures both the new and the old
I see the dragon in Job 41 as the sea monster Leviathan that rises up from many tongues peoples and nations in revelations 13 Pharaoh was the first head , as one of the 7 heads was healed Psalms 74 , Isaiah 27 ;1-3 -ezek 30; 24-25 ezek28 ; 13,14 a covenant of death Isaiah 28 18"Your covenant with death will be canceled, And your pact with Sheol will not stand; When the overwhelming scourge passes through, Then you become its trampling place.
and the most dramatic part is it speaks softly to God and makes supplictions with God , and make a covenant with God but only God can control this Beast of the sea [ red like a dragon ] because of all the bloodshed or sins =death of the Red or dead sea , the power given to the second beast image is of Job 40 of the earth that Christ is going to empty out in the 2nd death as purified by the fire and there will be no more sea
When I think about all the poor people trapped by this sea monster it is upsetting , but they still do not understand what the scriptures prove as truth ...
Quote from: sheila on March 05, 2018, 06:02:45 PM
:thumbsup: Israel...typifying the glory of the promised land..while remaining in flesh in this earth expierenced these tribulations. BUTitis really a three day journey....
the three days Christ lay in the heart of the earth before rising to recieve his kingdom. 40 days Jesus fast in the wilderness and was tempted ofsatan.
then the 'wars' totake the land....wars and desolation will continue until the end[our own personal battle of armagheddon for the possesion of our souls[bringing under
subjection to Christ]against powers and principalities. :2c:
EX[it the]ODUS[t]..our spirits return home unto God.
yay!! :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: CST on March 05, 2018, 02:31:51 PM
You say that if it wasn't for Satan we'd be a lot less evil
...It just would take a lot longer.. (for evil to run its course)
Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2018, 05:39:55 PM
Yes, Pharoh typifies Satan. You should realize that almost everything in the Old Testament is typifying. The understanding of this is called Bible Typology. The Israelite bondage in Egypt typifies the bondage of the flesh to sin. And their exodus typifies the deliverance from sin. After which there was the 40 years in the wilderness where they suffered tribulations. The crossing of the Red Sea typifies baptism.
:thumbsup:
:Chinscratch: ..and I just fully realized.. he wasn't mentioned much in the OT because he&co. hadn't yet been limited to the earth until the manchild (Son of man) ascended to the right hand of God (Rev 12:5-9)
Quote from: marie glen on March 05, 2018, 06:36:16 PM
Quote from: CST on March 05, 2018, 02:31:51 PM
You say that if it wasn't for Satan we'd be a lot less evil
...It just would take a lot longer.. (for evil to run its course)
Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2018, 05:39:55 PM
Yes, Pharoh typifies Satan. You should realize that almost everything in the Old Testament is typifying. The understanding of this is called Bible Typology. The Israelite bondage in Egypt typifies the bondage of the flesh to sin. And their exodus typifies the deliverance from sin. After which there was the 40 years in the wilderness where they suffered tribulations. The crossing of the Red Sea typifies baptism.
:thumbsup:
:Chinscratch: ..and I just fully realized.. he wasn't mentioned much in the OT because he&co. hadn't yet been limited to the earth until the manchild (Son of man) ascended to the right hand of God (Rev 12:5-9)
I'm fairly sure that would equate to being less evil in our experience, and on the second point... Hmm, yeah that must be the reason...
Quote from: jugghead on March 03, 2018, 09:37:19 PM
Quote from: Jason on March 03, 2018, 07:48:42 PM
Jugghead: "IMO ..... the "carnal mind" is the serpent, it is the devil, it is Satan and of course the first thing the carnal mind does is deny that this is true, the "carnal mind" always finds someone or something else to blame so it is not held accountable."
They're very similar yet different. Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" and he and his spirits work in the children of disobedience. You can't just reduce him to the "carnal mind." If he and his evil messengers were not actually spirits that can possess people, there would be much less evil in the world. They possess people with ideas and speeches, subtly changing the truth a little bit, or putting some reward to make people do the wrong thing. I also read in a certain book that Satan is able to supercharge the air, causing certain moods to those who are in the area - there's no reason to doubt something like this, Satan has certainly been given quite a lot of power.
It would be better to say, "The carnal mind is highly SUSCEPTIBLE to Satan and his evil spirits."
What you posted is NOT true. Satan may be "the WORST spiritual mind" - but he's not flesh and blood nor is he the "carnal mind."
Also: Jesus Himself clearly talked to Satan (when He was tempted and other times as well). If you and I can't see these spirits, it's because it has not been given to us to see them. You still need to believe that they are there. "And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha." - he didn't just see some "wrong theologies" or that the encamping host of Syria were "carnal-minded" - he saw the Hosts of God, true, he didn't see Satan (or it doesn't mention it), but Jesus saw and talked to Satan (many, many times).
You should read the whole Bible. God is the Father of spirits and they are all under His control. Yes, He can and DOES send lying spirits to convince people to do and believe what He intends. There is one truth, namely Jesus Christ in Whom The Holy Spirit, God the Father dwells. He is lord of all - including that spirit named Satan.
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." - the faith given from God, and none other
If what I have come to understand and believe is a lie then I shall die and be cleansed of it
and this same principle applies to you as well
If what you have come to understand and believe is a lie then you shall die and be cleansed of it
To God be the glory in the due time appointed to all by Him
I am going to have to agree with Jugghead , as to this carnal mind being the enemy against the Spirit Romans 8 ;7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field , crafty , with wisdom of the world , but that is his limits and boundaries , that serpent was cast our of heaven when Jesus become the ruler Prince of princes over death
This beast satan is the same old dragon of OLD spoken out through the scriptures having 7 heads and ten horns
they rule the earthly kingdoms Jesus dealt with them king of the earth by the power of the Holy Spirit upon Him
simply prince over the power of the air can mean the air, particularly
the lower and denser air as distinguished
from the higher and rarer air the atmospheric region not as always a spirit but as an influence of the mind , of authority , by their speech and great swelling words and vain flatteries , I remember it is about TRUTH and how the serpent twist the truth into lies ..
a spirit is simply Strong's H7307 - ruwach
רוּחַ
Transliteration
ruwach
Pronunciation
rü'·akh (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From רִיחַ (H7306)
TWOT Reference
2131a
Outline of Biblical Usage
wind, breath, mind, spirit
breath
wind
of heaven
quarter (of wind), side
breath of air
air, gas
vain, empty thing
spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
courage
temper, anger
impatience, patience
spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
prophetic spirit
spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
spirit (as seat of emotion)
desire
sorrow, trouble
spirit
as seat or organ of mental acts
rarely of the will
as seat especially of moral character I consider the news media a powerful influence over the masses and it is always about earthly things mostly
I can see lower air and dense as thick darkness clouding over mans reasoning with Gods Spirit so much higher in power
I can see that the love for knowledge and worldly wisdom and not the love for God and His Wisdom being the downfall because it is temporary and it is corrupted by mixing both that the carnal mind is subjected too and influenced by
Mind of the beast is in total disobedience against the Mind of Christ[anti-Christ] from total obedience to the desire of God a higher and more perfect Wisdom and ways and reasoning ...
They are very interchangeable in the sense of influence to being subject to corruption dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.
"the journalist who wants to expose corruption in high places"
synonyms: dishonesty, unscrupulousness, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, misconduct, crime, criminality, wrongdoing; More
2.
the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.
synonyms: alteration, bastardization, debasement, adulteration
"these figures have been subject to corruption"
When in fact the Truth can only Come by the incorruptible Word of God as a seed planted in the heart and as the Light exposes a seed planted in our bodies of corruption , by the watering of the Word , it can begin to sprout new growth in the truth and grace , the mortal body can never inherit the things of the Spirit , there is no good thing in the flesh , but in the Spirit of Life that rises up out of it ...
for me and my :2c: I can only see the body as a catalyst that judges things by the outward appearance of things without the Spirit of God being able to discern the truth from the lies working within us ...
a person or thing that precipitates an event. , this influence of satan to Judas was tempted by the carnal mind , the Spirit had not been given yet , He was influenced by the Sanhedrin , those seats of appetites not wanting to loose there place of power over the people , I see them all sitting in darkness , like the beast in Revelations 16 receiving the mark
They rejected the LIGHT they loved the darkness more than the light and this is the result ...10And the fifth angel
poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish
11
and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds. 12Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East....
synonyms: stimulus, stimulation, spark, sparkplug, spur, incitement, impetus
"the governor's speech was a catalyst for debate"
DIvision , because you can only stand in the truth , anything that tries to Kill the TRUTH dies trying
43Why do you not understand what I am saying?
It is because you are unable to accept My message.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want
to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning
, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!...
It took both the serpents Lie /influence to tempt Eve and the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to produce the mixing of good and evil
AND THAN falsely ACCUSE them before God night and day , and it is both working against the truth , I can see it as a mind of the beast carried by thoughts as breaths or spirits spoken and than actions done by them as disobedience to the will of God , His desire being that no one should perish but that all should come to repentance. a change of minds to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition
to accept the divine forgiveness."
Definition of influence for English Language Learners. : the power to change or affect someone or something :
the power to cause changes without directly forcing them to happen. :
a person or thing that affects someone or something in an important way.
the tree of life is separate and full of TRUTH AND LIFE
I do believe it's likely both.. It's always an intriguing study to bring up some of the verses.. both on the enemy/opposer/slanderer.. and also verses about angels..
A partial list..
James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
- when you resist those bad impulses.. they will flee
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
- seem like good ideas..
Ephesians 6:11-12
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil (greek slanderer). For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks (laleó: to talk) out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god (theos: God, a god) of this world/age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light (augazó: to shine forth) of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon (drakón: a dragon or huge serpent, mythical monster) was thrown down, that ancient serpent (ophis: a snake, serpent) who is called the devil (diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely) and Satan (Satanas: adversary), the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels (aggelos: an angel, messenger) were thrown down with him.
James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons (daimonion: an evil-spirit, demon; a heathen deity) believe—and shudder!
Revelation 20:1,2
Then I saw an angel (aggelos: an angel, messenger) coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain, and seized the dragon, the ancient (archaios: original, ancient, primitive) serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him (autos: he, she, it, they, them, or same) for a thousand years.
John 16:11
and in regard to judgment, because the prince (archon: a ruler, governor, leader, chief, leading man) of this world has been condemned.
John 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,
John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast (ekballo: I throw, cast, put out, banish, bring forth, produce) out (exó: outside, without).
Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil (diabolos: slanderer, false accuser) took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
1 John 4:4
Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he (ho, hé, to: the) who is in you is greater than he (ho, hé, to: the) who is in the world.
Luke 11:18
And if Satan also is divided against himself (heautou: of himself, herself, itself), how will the kingdom of him (he, she, it, they, them, same) stand? For you say that I cast out demons (daimonion: an evil spirit, a demon, a heathen deity) by Beelzebul (Beelzeboul: Beelzebul, a name of Satan, title of Satan which stresses he is the prince over demons.. demonic [like?] flies).
Luke 10:18
And he said to them, "I saw Satan (Satanas: adversary) fall like lightning from heaven". (interlinear - "out of the heaven having fallen")
I wonder how this could be applied to satan as a nonliving force? As enmity? "out of heaven having fallen"..?
James 1:13 - Let no one say, being tempted -- 'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one - YLT
Matthew 4:1
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Jude 1:9
But when the archangel (archaggelos: a chief angel, i.e. archangel) Michael, contending (dialegomai: to discuss, to address, to preach) with the (ho, hé, to: the) devil (diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely, the slanderer), was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you (su: you)."
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God
Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
1 Timothy 3:7
Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the (ho, hé, to: the) devil (diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely, slanderer).
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities (exousia: power to act, authority, - it does say influence, spiritual power) against the (ho, hé, to: the) cosmic powers (kosmokratór: a ruler of this world) over this (ho, hé, to: the) present darkness, against the (ho, hé, to: the) spiritual forces of evil (ponéria: iniquity) in the (ho, hé, to: the) heavenly places (epouranios: of heaven).
2 Corinthians 2:10-11
Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.
Luke 4:3
The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
Matthew 13:39
And the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Job 1:7
The Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."
2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders..
And what I see as "the prince of the power of the air" are words that proceed from "the father of lies",
just as Christ (the Word/the prince of peace) proceedeth forth from God (our heavenly Father) (John 8:42)
so does the anti-Christ (a word/prince of anti-peace/unrest) proceed forth from the father of lies causing everything against peace
If Christ is the Word of God would not the anti-Christ be the anti-word of the adversary to God, are not thoughts converted to words by the mixture of sound and moving air spoken by the tongue? Do not thoughts originate in the mind?
When air/breath is redirected through the larynx it produces sound, sound is the power of air/breath and the tongue forms that sound into words, and words are thoughts manifested outside the body.
"the prince of the power of the air" are the words of the spirit of the world (the father of lies), a world that is carnally minded and as a whole "one carnal mind" that deceives the children of God
my :2c:
Amen ! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: Thanks CST Marie and Jugg ... the dead know nothing about GOD Even we have to be taught of the Holy Spirit to live
I see the WORD of TRUTH/ GOD in full power the dead shall Hear His VOICE AND LIVE ,,,
as the prideful and arrogant boast great things and the great swelling words as hot air and great noise that actually speak against GOD /TRUTH /LOVE !
2Peter 2 deliverance from False Prophets
...17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18With lofty but empty words, they appeal to the sensual passions of the flesh and entice the ones who are just escaping from those who live in error.
19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to corruption. For a man is a slave to whatever has overcome him....
Berean Study Bible ·
Psalm 73:8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression; They speak from on high.
Ephesians 4:17
So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
2 Peter 2:2
Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed.
Jude 1:16
These men are discontented grumblers, following after their own lusts; their mouths spew arrogance; they flatter others for their own advantage.
It is the voice /Breath of God breathing in them from the Spirit and making the living waters voice of many waters from Above in unity and as One .
1John 4 Testing the Spirits
...5They are of the world. That is why they speak from the world's perspective, and the world listens to them.
6We are from God.
Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us.
That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God.
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God....
John 8:23
Then He told them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
John 10:3
The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.
John 18:37
"Then You are a king!" Pilate said. "You say that I am a king," Jesus answered. "For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice."
When Jesus returned He breathed on them they received the Holy Spirit as a wind that blows and changes the mind and heart towards God
to respire re·spire
rəˈspī(ə)r/Submit
verb
breathe.
"he lay back, respiring deeply"
(of a plant) carry out respiration, especially at night when photosynthesis has ceased.
literary
recover hope, courage, or strength after a time of difficulty.
"the archduke, newly respiring from so long a war"
Very Beautiful really when you consider every particle and speck is of Gods Word spoke into Being by His own Holy breath God is everything and in everything .
Amen Rosie.. :cloud9:
...we ALL have sojourned in EGYPT/this world..where we have been taken captive to sin to do the will of Pharoah/Prince of this world. when we leavethis world..we willnever
return.......we allhave a pass-over..where we will inherit our own promised land. Pharoah won't let go! even though God instructed him
to through Moses[God hardened hisheart] when you see allthese things..lookup,your deliverance draws nigh. :2c:
Quote from: CST on March 05, 2018, 02:31:51 PM
Then repent and be cleansed. There are a lot of things that are wrong with the concept of Satan many of which are demonstrated in your post above.
Many stories exist about Satan in society that inform our concept, Faust, Robert Jonhson, The Divine Comedy, even Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey; none of them have explicit support from the Bible, so what parts of our concept do have explicit support from the Bible? Well, none so far as I can tell, the word Satan appears even now and then whenever it does people have read it as a proper noun of the same being and tried to put all the bits together and tried to formulate a narrative about this being which the Bible only seems to speak about implicitly at best.
Given the capacity of these beings to lead people astray in the way you say they can and like to think that God would have given us some better warning and information about this great enemy which would be preserved clearly in the Bible.
You say that if it wasn't for Satan we'd be a lot less evil but that's just the problem, who's to say how much less evil we'd be and who'd have the nerve to measure it. If the carnal mind is enough to put us at estrangement from God that's evil and dangerous enough, we don't need some invisible agency we don't know whether we've encountered or not to give us an excuse for our supposed 'worst' behavior. That makes it hard to know where our responsibility ends and therefore what it's justified to correct us for, or indeed, what the point would be of doing so.
Matthew 8:28-34 28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" 30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs." 32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Mark 1:21-34 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Drives Out an Impure Spirit
21 They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. 22 The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. 23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!"
25 "Be quiet!" said Jesus sternly. "Come out of him!" 26 The impure spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.
27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, "What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him." 28 News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee.
Jesus Heals Many
29 As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30 Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they immediately told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.
32 That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
So... the "carnal mind" came out of those two men, and went into the pigs and made them commit suicide. Well... that's about the sum of what you guys are saying... (notice that this isn't even "Satan" who was possessing these men, they were lesser "demons")... Are you going to make some sort of claim that the "insanity"/"carnal mind" of these men was so great, that when Jesus restored them to their right mind, he had to transfer the "insanity"/"carnal mind" into the pigs? Did not the demons beg Him to go into the herd of pigs? Are you going to make some sort of claim that the writers of the gospels were in gross error thinking that demons exist?
New International Version
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him.
New Living Translation
Jesus demanded, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, for he was filled with many demons.
English Standard Version
Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," for many demons had entered him.
Berean Study Bible
"What is your name?" Jesus asked. "Legion," he answered, because many demons had gone into him.
Berean Literal Bible
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," because many demons were entered into him.
New American Standard Bible
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
King James Bible
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Christian Standard Bible
"What is your name?" Jesus asked him. "Legion," he said, because many demons had entered him.
Contemporary English Version
Jesus asked the man, "What is your name?" He answered, "My name is Lots." He said this because there were "lots" of demons in him.
Good News Translation
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is 'Mob,'" he answered--because many demons had gone into him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
"What is your name?" Jesus asked him." Legion," he said--because many demons had entered him.
International Standard Version
Jesus asked the man, "What's your name?" He answered, "Legion," because many demons had gone into him.
NET Bible
Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion," because many demons had entered him.
New Heart English Bible
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion," for many demons had entered into him.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But Yeshua asked him, "What is your name?" But he said to him, "Legion", because many demons had entered him.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He answered, "Legion [Six Thousand]." (Many demons had entered him.)
New American Standard 1977
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
Jubilee Bible 2000
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion, because many demons were entered into him.
King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is your name? And he said, Legion: because many demons were entered into him.
American King James Version
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is your name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
American Standard Version
And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many demons were entered into him.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus asked him, saying: What is thy name? But he said: Legion; because many devils were entered into him.
Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus asked him saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: for many demons had entered into him.
English Revised Version
And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many devils were entered into him.
Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many demons had entered into him.
Weymouth New Testament
"What is your name?" Jesus asked him. "Legion," he replied--because a great number of demons had entered into him;
World English Bible
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion," for many demons had entered into him.
Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus questioned him, saying, 'What is thy name?' and he said, 'Legion,' (because many demons were entered into him,)
If "Satan" is the "carnal mind", and he's also one of two of "the anointed cherubs that covereth" and Moses had to make the tabernacle according to the true pattern in heaven, then the "carnal mind" has been at the throne of God until Jesus ascended and sat at the right hand of God the Everlasting Father, and "made war with (Satan) the "carnal mind" (and his slightly less carnal minds? (demons)), the devil, and cast him out." How exactly is Satan the "carnal mind" (of everyone) if he is specifically one of two "anointed cherubs that covereth"? If you have to have a spiritual mind to be "seated in heavenly places with Christ" then how has the "carnal mind" been truly seated at the throne of God since the days of Moses (at least)? Now we know that the "sons of God" or "morning stars" or "angels" sang and shouted for joy when God laid the foundation of the earth from the book of Job. God Himself said that Job wasn't there. If the "carnal mind" was the enemy (in Job's fleshly body), and yet it was also the "anointed cherub that covereth" which WAS at the throne of God, how was Job not there? We also know that (Satan) the "carnal mind" drew a third part of the "sons of God" or "morning stars" or "angels" down to earth with him. Hmmm... if it's talking about actual stars/suns then I'm pretty sure the earth would be absolutely demolished. There's just no way that you can actually say that spirits don't exist. Not if you look at all of the scriptural evidence. You may not believe, but you're only denying the "holy prophets/apostles" and Jesus Christ Himself as far as I can tell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do it with actual scripture (AND/OR ask The Holy Spirit to correct me), not just your ideas.
Now maybe I'm just "insane"/"carnally-minded"/"Satan" and Jesus Christ can come and cast my "insanity/"carnal mind"/"Satan" into a herd of pigs and I'll be cured. I'm not doubting Jesus Christ, I'm doubting your theology that "spirits" (other than humans) don't exist.
2 Chronicles 18:18-22 18Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 20Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' "'By what means?' the LORD asked. 21"'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 22"So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Was this "spirit" just some "breath of wind" or the "carnal mind" WITHOUT a body??? How was it still the "carnal mind" when it was not flesh??? If it indeed was the "carnal mind" then why did God have to put it into the mouth of the prophets (were they spiritual and God had to force them to be carnal to accomplish His purpose? - oh, yeah, that's likely... it's so easy to always be spiritual, so much so that God had to revert these prophets to carnality... yep!)
Furthermore, Jesus Christ Himself decreed that nobody has ascended into the heavens. Therefore, "all the multitudes of heaven" couldn't possibly have been humans. The only logical conclusion would be that there are indeed "spirits" - both good and evil. Or maybe the "carnal mind" is "all the multitudes of heaven". I don't quite get why Adam and Eve were cast out if that is the case... why then are there still "carnal minds" in heaven?
New Living Translation
"And the spirit replied, 'I will go out and inspire all of Ahab's prophets to speak lies.' "'You will succeed,' said the LORD. 'Go ahead and do it.'
English Standard Version
And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'
New American Standard Bible
"He said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.'
King James Bible
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
Christian Standard Bible
"So he said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "Then he said, 'You will entice him and also prevail. Go and do that.'
Contemporary English Version
"I'll make Ahab's prophets lie to him." "Good!" the LORD replied. "Now go and do it. You will be successful."
Good News Translation
The spirit replied, 'I will go and make all of Ahab's prophets tell lies.' The LORD said, 'Go and deceive him. You will succeed.'"
Holman Christian Standard Bible
"So he said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "Then He said, 'You will entice him and also prevail. Go and do that.'
International Standard Version
"'I will go,' he announced, 'and I will be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets!' "So the LORD said, 'You're just the one to deceive him. You will be successful. Go and do it.'
NET Bible
He replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD said, 'Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed.'
New Heart English Bible
"He said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "He said, 'You will entice him, and will prevail also. Go forth, and do so.'
GOD'S WORD® Translation
"The Spirit answered, 'I will go out and be a spirit that tells lies through the mouths of all of Ahab's prophets.' "The LORD said, 'You will succeed in deceiving him. Go and do it.'
JPS Tanakh 1917
And he said: I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said: Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also; go forth, and do so.
New American Standard 1977
"And he said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.'
Jubilee Bible 2000
And he said, I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail; go out and do even so.
King James 2000 Bible
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, You shall entice him, and you shall also prevail: go out, and do even so.
American King James Version
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, You shall entice him, and you shall also prevail: go out, and do even so.
American Standard Version
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answered: I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said: Thou shalt deceive, and shalt prevail: go out, and do so.
Darby Bible Translation
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice [him], and also succeed: go forth, and do so.
English Revised Version
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Webster's Bible Translation
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out and do even so.
World English Bible
"He said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "He said, 'You will entice him, and will prevail also. Go forth, and do so.'
Young's Literal Translation
and he saith, I go out, and have become a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He saith, Thou dost entice, and also, thou art able; go out and do so.
It's not really my point to "blame" my sins on Satan or anything like that. If spirits (other than humans) don't actually exist, then what is God actually doing in these scriptures? Don't just go along with the crowd, actually search the scriptures (and sure, use multiple versions).
Besides all of this, from these scriptural examples (assuming the "carnal mind" is Satan) we could then infer that you have to be the "carnal mind"/"demon-possessed" to know Jesus Christ. These "spirits" knew Him.
All of the consequences are staggering if you truly believe the "carnal mind" is Satan. If that is the case then all we're warring against is flesh and blood (our carnal nature). If Satan is not an actual being, who actually opposes Jesus Christ and God, then who was it saying things such as "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Does Job fear God for nothing? Have not you made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he has on every side? you have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face. Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face." - was "carnally-minded" Job just talking to God and tempting God to harm (Job) himself????? How did this "carnal mind" go forth from God's throne and smite Job? Why did God have to tell this "carnal mind" not to kill Job?
Besides all this, how does this "leviathan" the wicked, piercing, crooked serpent (Satan) behold all high things and how is he a king over all the children of pride? If all people's minds are Satan (the "carnal mind"), then why are there "None so fierce that dare stir him up:"? People stir up other people all of the time... :sigh:
Anyway, Jesus would not refer to Satan as "the father of lies" NOR as "a murderer from the beginning" if he wasn't a specific entity. If you are going to choose not to pay attention to "the" and "a" in these cases, then you may as well revert back to not believing that "all" means "all". Therefore then... you don't believe in The Victorious Gospel of Christ.
Well... that's only if you choose this path, I guess.
I'm not trying to cause division, simply pointing out that it's absurd to think Satan is the "carnal mind". How can the "carnal mind" flee from you if you flee from fornication? Will your "carnal mind" just leave and never come back? What about the parable about the strong man... is the "carnal mind" a man? Did Christ (being the stronger man) merely defeat the "carnal mind"? What about Judas? Was he the only apostle who had a "carnal mind" (even though they hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet)? Yet you say that the "devil" he had was only his "carnal mind".
There are probably millions MORE absurdities that take place other than the ones I've pointed out if Satan is merely the "carnal mind".
I personally happen to agree with you Jason that the adversary or satan is an entity, a distinct spiritual being - that takes advantage of our weak spots and influences our mind if allowed.
There are various POVs and this could turn into a hot button divisive argument.
Here's to :Peace2: ful dialogue. :)
Quote from: jabcat on March 08, 2018, 08:10:18 AM
I personally happen to agree with you Jason that the adversary or satan is an entity, a distinct spiritual being - that takes advantage of our weak spots and influences our mind if allowed.
There are various POVs and this could turn into a hot button divisive argument.
Here's to :Peace2: ful dialogue. :)
Hi bro James I sure do not cause any problem for anyone . nor stir up a hornets nest :laughing7: [figure of speech]
What is impossible to explain in words what people feel is
emotions and the
seat of emotions is the human heart .
That no human can judge their own hearts much less anyone else's , of what they will act on or do in any given situation .
God is LOVE the strongest and most powerful emotion the human heart can experience , most any heart is driven by desires animal by nature and the human is one of the most complicated creatures God ever made with complexity , as with a nature and ability to be most like Himself ..
That when subjected to the Word of God , becomes a new creature in Christ having the breath of God in them or they would be inanimate and more like an object without life form not alive, especially not in the manner of animals and humans.
"inanimate objects like stones"
showing no sign of life; lifeless.
Oddly enough God s WORD describes and compares our hearts as hardened like stones . Lacking feelings of emotions as dead [nothingness / vanity ]
Yet vanity can also mean , self will , being strong love and desires and prideful wisdom and of the earthly glory and fame
If you can see swines flesh as a human being that eats anything or anyone up , is saying that they have no self control
The Bible teaches us to have self control .
How do we devour one another except by anger and pride ? a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.
"the team was bursting with pride after recording a sensational victory"
synonyms: pleasure, joy, delight, gratification, fulfillment, satisfaction, a sense of achievement
"take pride in a good job well done"
2.
a group of lions forming a social unit.
verb
1.
be especially proud of a particular quality or skill. This is another strong emotion , God told Cain to get a handle on , Cains anger/ pride was caused by jealousy another strong emotion from anger and selfish ambition and desires to serve ones self more than God or His desire that none should perish off the face of the earth , till love be completed in them from God .
It causes one to kill another , that disobedience against the truth . than is sin and error born from a desire to rule over God , not God rule over them .
God is described as many Holy , pure and good attributes , regard something as being caused by (someone or something).
We have knowledge of good and evil and get to pick one or the other as our substance and source of reason ,
When God said let us reason together , not apart from God .
When one reasons with any group of others mankind becomes dangerous , causing self harm and harm towards others
causing to rule over them by force , making them subject to desires of the self willed and NOT THE WILL OF GOD
will and desire are very interchangeable words in meanings .
reasoning
noun
1.
a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
"the minister resigned for personal reasons"
synonyms: cause, ground(s), basis, rationale; More
2.
the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
"there is a close connection between reason and emotion"
synonyms: rationality, logic, logical thought, reasoning, cognition; formalratiocination
"postmodern voices railing against reason"
verb
1.
think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
"humans do not reason entirely from facts"
synonyms: think rationally, think logically, use one's common sense, use one's head/brain; More
We have boundaries that God has made for the benefits of all to LIVE by , When you go past a boundary God has made , you break a rule and trespass against God and your fellow mankind .
Evil is a force that is opposing GOOD the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the source of mixing both good and evil desires a desire is a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.
As is a strong lust to do something as a very strong sexual desire.
"he knew that his lust for her had returned"
synonyms: sexual desire, sexual appetite, sexual longing, ardor, desire, passion; libido, sex drive, sexuality, biological urge; lechery, lasciviousness, concupiscence; informalhorniness, the hots, randiness
"his lust for her"
verb
1.
have a very strong sexual desire for someone.
"he really lusted after me in those days"
synonyms: desire, be consumed with desire for, find sexually attractive, crave, covet, ache for, burn for; informalhave the hots for, fancy, have a thing about/for, drool over
"he lusted after his employer's wife"
God made man as male and female in the beginning as Adam before Eve was even formed out of him
There is our greatest clue in Genesis chapter one .. meaning origines of how birthing somthing happens and why and what for and as to whom is the source or cause for it to happen .
Anyone whom reads the Bible and looks deeper into the meanings will be able to tell all Origin/birth come by Gods Word and Spirit of Life , the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived.
How did Gods pure and Holy Word that is incorruptible become so corrupted ?
By mixing , plain and simple explanation , and GOD will separate and divide and make new from what was MIXED and ruined by a little evil destroys much good ...
Incorruptible not susceptible to corruption, especially by bribery.
synonyms: honest, honorable, trustworthy, principled, high-principled, unbribable, moral, ethical, good, virtuous
"an incorruptible man"
2.
not subject to death or decay; everlasting.
synonyms: imperishable, indestructible, indissoluble, enduring, everlasting
"an incorruptible substance"
corrupted verb
past tense: corrupted; past participle: corrupted
1.
cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms: alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"
What is impossible for man to do not knowing what is good and evil IS yet without mixing them , is only POSSIBLE WITH GOD .
GOD is the only origin of what is in pure form and untainted by the world and spotless , untouched and HOLY without
any outside influences to change ..
Everything else God made is subject to change .
I have to stop here it is getting way to long for the average reader to focus on any longer .
But the simple truth is what starts in innocence and becomes corrupted by many outside influences of knowledge by mixing good and evil till the complete and perfect comes .
Jesus Christ is the PURE WORD OF GOD that returns to GOD unspotted by the world and judges the world as corrupted
and is the separating factor everything is judged by, for and though . This WORD OF GOD is teaching that everything will be compared too or for , or against . the occupation, profession, or work of a teacher.
2.
ideas or principles taught by an authority.
an adversary is one's opponent in a contest, conflict, or dispute.
Does anything or anyone think that there is any Higher Wisdom than Gods own ?
All will know better than that , in the end result , than from the beginning that all of Gods creation is being subjected too .
Each in their own order , seems to me that ,if God had already finished His works already FROM the beginning
we are just now beginning to grasp some of Gods wisdom and learn what His own righteousness is in the earth really means . .
Its a Word , against all words formed against Him , that everyone will be tested by . His Word is a consuming fire .
and the tongue is the world of iniquity James 3 and little member that is a devil , full of unruly EVIL , that nothing can tame but GOD HIMSELF , after you suffer because of it for a while .
James 4 What causes fights and quarrels among you?
Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want,
so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
Y
ou adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone
who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
"God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble."
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners,
and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it,
but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow.
What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes.
All such boasting is evil. If anyone,
then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them. So your tongue is compared to the the devil and your heart is a seat of desires and we fight against God and each other , because the world is full of evil and the world is dead to a HOLY GOD , He raises you up out of the dead to Life in Him by His Word of LIFE and By His Spirit of life , Jesus was our greatest example of that and if we cannot learn and see that we have no living hope but are still dead in sin and error yet to be released by death and its rider
namely yourself .. Job 40 has helped me to see something a very powerful WORD OF TRUTH
God told Job , Did you know
your own right arm can save you ? wayyyyy back then
11"Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
And look on everyone who is proud, and make him low.
12"Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him,
And
tread down the wicked where they stand. 13"
Hide them in the dust together;
Bind them in the hidden place. 14"
Then I will also confess to you,
That your own right hand can save you. Is not Jesus CHRIST at the right hand of POWER ALWAYS ?
Here is a really awesome article Question: "Why does Scripture emphasize the right hand of God?"
Answer: The Scripture has several words translated "right" and the usage of the term, "right hand" ranges from a direction, to the opposite of wrong, what is just or what conforms
to an established standard, and
to a place of honor or authority. In the case of division or appointment in the Bible,
the right hand or right side came first, as when Israel (Jacob) divided the blessings to Joseph's sons before he died (Genesis 48:13-14).
In addition, a person of high rank who put someone on his right hand gave him equal honor with himself and recognized him as possessing
equal dignity and authority. And this is what the Apostle Paul writes of Jesus Christ in Ephesians. "And what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age" (Ephesians 1:19-21). Here we see God exalting Jesus above all others by seating Him at the right hand of the Father.
The term "God's right hand" in prophecy refers to the Messiah to whom is given the power and authority to subdue His enemies (Psalm 110:1; Psalm 118:16). We find a quote in Matthew 22:44 from Psalm 110:1, which is a Messianic Psalm. "The Son of David" is claimed by the LORD Jesus Christ as He is the "greater son of David" or the Messiah. In this passage of Matthew 22, Jesus questions the Pharisees about who they think the "Christ" or the Messiah is. "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is He? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make Thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?" (Matthew 22:41-45, KJV). The position of the Messiah is at God's right hand.
The fact that Jesus Christ is at the "right hand of God" was a sign to the disciples that Jesus had indeed gone to heaven. In John 16:7-15, Jesus told the disciples that He had to go away and He would send the Holy Spirit. So the coming of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-13) was proof positive that Jesus was indeed in heaven seated at the right hand of God. T
his is confirmed in Romans 8:34 where the Apostle Paul writes that Christ is sitting at God's right hand making intercession for us.Therefore, what we can say is that "God's right hand" refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God (John 1:1-5). The fact that Christ is "sitting" refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done and when the fullness of the gentiles is brought in (Romans 11:25),
Christ's enemies will be made His footstool as the end of the age comes, all prophecy is completed, and time is no more. If none of this is taken as personal than were do any of us stand in the TRUTH ? Being the standard everything is measured by and for and through . and what is double minded really mean ? , the beast head/authority / mind has to go in order for the Mind of Christ to come and take all power & authority over the heart and mind /soul /life and body ..
Thanks, I don't think you need to quote all those different versions of the same text I pretty sure I get the point, the story of the Gadarene swine does look pretty specific and make it hard to believe it doesn't actually mean some real beings have actually possessed this man, but what are these beings. What are 'demons' are they simply fallen angels that have deteriorated, or are they a special type of evil beings that we have no idea when they come from, except that somehow god must have created them.
QuotePeople stir up other people all of the time...
Quite right they do... and that's not all they stir up. Before we continue I need to make clear what has so far not been clear because I've simply been following on from a possible misunderstanding of the words of jugghead. What I need to clarify is that while I think in a certain sense the carnal mind is Satan I do not believe that Satan is the carnal mind. Satan is a Hebrew term for 'adversary' and is is used to refer to different and various adversaries throughout scripture.
Job is a strange book that confuses a lot of its readers, many people who have set their mind and heart to study it struggle to get their head around it. The main thrust of the text is that a righteous man (even though the Bible makes clear that in an absolute sense there's no such thing) has a sudden change in fortune whereby he essentially loses everything and goes into despair. After this a group of three friends of rather dubious nature attempt to console Job in ways that are less than honourable. Needless to say I don't trust these 'friends'.
I don't take the opening of Job literally and this is important for my further understanding of the story. To me in Job the characters of the court represent prayers and supplications of man brought to God, these three 'friends' are envious of Job's success and bring their complaints to God, Satan represents this process. This interpretation, to me, explains why, in Job, at the end of the story God reprimands the three 'friends' for their behaviour while 'Satan' is never seen again.
Now, to your more specific points. I'll go with the one from Chronicles (and Kings, it's in Kings too) first because you've mentioned it previously and so I've already been thinking about it.
The question you ask about the nature of the deceiving spirit is a very important one. It's certainly hard to believe that it is a demon because God co-operates with it and seems to condone it's plan and actions even if we might think it seems morally dubious.
But why does God need to do this? The concept of deceit here suggests knowing the truth and yet giving the opposite. The idea of having to send a deceiving spirit into the mouths of all Ahab's prophets suggests that Ahab's prophets are legitimate, that they correctly foresee Ahab's defeat and death and would tell him so, unless God intercedes to prevent them doing so. This is a concept that makes no sense, if they intend to tell Ahab the truth would they not notice if this lying spirit in their mouth makes their tongue say otherwise, a concept which the literal reading of the text suggests? Zedekiah didn't seem to think so, he was clearly highly offended by the suggest he wasn't telling the truth to Ahab but he clearly wasn't and Michaiah upbraids him by making a prophesy that, unfortunately, the full resolution of which is not contained in the text of Bible.
All that said though, Ahab's attitude to Michaiah - I hate him he never prophesies anything good - coupled with what Ahab does to him after he makes this prophesy seems to more more than enough reason for his other prophets to be sycophantic and be dishonest about what they foresee and only tell Ahab what they think he wants to hear so the idea that God needs to actively put some objective deceiving spirit in their mouths to get them to lie to him - and apparently not notice they're lying - seems to confer a degree of integrity of them it doesn't seem consistent to imagine that they possess.
The material about Legion is a lot harder I concede, the demon Legion does seem to engage directly with Jesus in conversation even though it's hard to imagine exactly what meant to be happening, are they speaking through the mouth of the swine heard? They seem to be but if they are you've got a very rare event, the Bible is written as though such things are common and if people running into demons and them haranguing them like this is something that happens every day yet it not something that we tend to see much about on the news. Also when the demon says 'we are many' is that a collective many or just many, many. What would be the difference between a man being possessed by one demon and many they all make his life impossible so wouldn't one be enough? And if there are all these demons why aren't we all possessed?
What's Jesus excising here. I don't believe in demons in the way they seem to be presented here. But I do believe that Jesus has a powerful command over nature and nature is more than it appears to us the Bible just presents it more objectively than it actually is.
The Bible does seem to suggest that demons exist and possess people but it also say that God will not test people beyond their strength and yet demons seem to possess people and when they do they people they possess have no power to get shot of them on their own which seems to violate that concept.
I recognise that taken to it's conclusion whatever a demon is meant to represent could be said to have the same problem but it makes more sense than God allowing objective enemies we can not see or fight in the majority of cases to blunder around our planet which he gave us to steward and corrupt us without warning or sufficient protection. That idea does not fit with God's merciful nature.
The logic in why I believe what I do is, religion teaches a concept of hell that people who believe in UR no longer believe, so why continue to believe in the concept of Satan the way religion teaches?
There are three things I no longer trust
1. religion
2. the people of religion
3. the words they speak
I certainly see your point but people of the Christian religion are trying to teach the Bible as they think it should be said so at least some of the things they teach must be correct, mainly the love derived stuff I expect. That only becomes a problem in our pretty universal failure to actually practice it.
For me if I thought the Bible teaching on Satan and demons was clearer and more explicit I feel I would be compelled to accept it, but I'm dubious about accepting something that isn't clearly defined and seems to deny sense.
I can only Hope God helps us understand His Word of truth , over speculation , I am learning as well , I will never say I know , I will always say I need you God, to know YOUR TRUTH and what you want us to understand .
the man/men at the Gadarene Gergesa, also Gergasa or the Country of the Gergesenes, is a place on the eastern (Golan Heights) side of the Sea of Galilee located at some distance to the ancient Decapolis cities of Gadara and Gerasa. It is mentioned in some ancient manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew as the place where the Miracle of the Swine took place, an exorcism performed by Jesus who drove demons out of two possessed men and into a herd of pigs.
All three Synoptic Gospels mention this miracle, but only Matthew writes about two possessed men instead of just one, and only some manuscripts of his Gospel name the location as Gergesa, while the other copies, as well as all versions of Luke and Mark, mention either Gadara [city of tombs ]or Gerasa [Gergesenes means "those who come from pilgrimage or fight."] (see Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39, Matthew 8:28-34).
gods are idols of the heart that mankind loves to worship many gods , selves included , they do not know any better , the dead know nothing , this man or men knew violence .
When you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you will be as gods and against the true and ONE God as defiant knowing they were naked , hiding themselves from God and making for themselves coverings by their own hands .. gen 1 children of disobedience .. adjective. 1. characterized by defiance; boldly resistant or challenging: a defiant attitude. Origin of defiant.
You are gods , Strong's H430 - 'elohiym
אֱלֹהִים
Transliteration
'elohiym
Pronunciation
el·ō·hēm' (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Plural of אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)
TWOT Reference
93c
Outline of Biblical Usage
(plural)
rulers, judges
divine ones
angels
gods
(plural intensive - singular meaning)
god, goddess
godlike one
works or special possessions of God
the (true) God
God
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2606
AV — God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1
Psalms 82 the gods of this world ... judges and princes
...5They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7"Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."...
John 10:34
Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?
Psalm 8:5
Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!
Psalm 82:1
A Psalm of Asaph. God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers.
Psalm 89:26
"He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'
Ezekiel 28:2
"Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas'; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God--
Zechariah 12:8
"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.
Psalm 14:4
Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
Psalm 46:2
Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea;
Proverbs 2:13
From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness;
Isaiah 59:9
Therefore justice is far from us, And righteousness does not overtake us; We hope for light, but behold, darkness, For brightness, but we walk in gloom.
Jeremiah 4:22
"For My people are foolish, They know Me not; They are stupid children And have no understanding. They are shrewd to do evil, But to do good they do not know."
Jeremiah 23:12
"Therefore their way will be like slippery paths to them, They will be driven away into the gloom and fall down in it; For I will bring calamity upon them, The year of their punishment," declares the LORD.
Cutting himself with stones This is only one of many interpretations , someone shared with me long go and it helped
Being locked up under the law that no human being can keep all the law , the law was written on two stone tables by the finger of God and was being destroyed trying to keep all the law by all these religious beliefs and pagan worshippers
Because the carnal mind is an enemy against the Spirit of God , this man seeks to find truth in the world and not THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD , the confusion by mixing had this man looking for God among the dead / tombs , ones no better off than he was ..
4Though he was often bound with chains and shackles, he had broken the chains and shattered the shackles. Now no one had the strength to subdue him. 5Night and day in the tombs and in the mountains, he kept crying out and cutting himself with stones. 6When the man saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees before Him....
What torments the mind ? The weakness of the flesh in the inability to change our course , Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD in power to change one from violence by mercy , the law had always come by violence till John the Baptist
taking it by force as robbers and thieves , when Jesus come He would finish to work of God by Love and mercy and grace
making spirits of just men perfect/ complete knowing the Love of God though mercy and great grace
...
Jesus Testifies about John
...11Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence, and the violent lay claim to it. 13For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John....
Matthew 3:15
"Let it be so now," Jesus replied. "It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way." Then John permitted Him.
Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Jesus was going to bring in the new covenant of grace by His own blood shed as a great covering for sin by Gods grace
for the forgiveness of sins by His cross with such violence and sinners against Him as we are to also take up our cross and die to selfish ambition and desires and give up the ghost ,,, or that spirit ruling in our hearts that has taken on many unclean spirits dwelling in the heart and seat of appetites as anti -christ ...
If it were possible even the very elect would be deceived Matt 24 ;24 The Abomination of Desolation
...23At that time, if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There He is,' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance....
Hebrews 12 ...2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith,
who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners,
so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood....
Take up your cross the innocent/lamb are silent before their accusers and wait on the Lord to raise them up out of death and violence many times as a better resurrection than in past times as we practice righteousness
1 John 3
6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning./rebelling ./slandering .
No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.
7Little children, let no one deceive you:
The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.
8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.
This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil....Strong's G1228 - diabolos
διάβολος
Transliteration
diabolos
Pronunciation
dē-ä'-bo-los (Key)
Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
From διαβάλλω (G1225)
Outline of Biblical Usage
prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God,
may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him :sigh:
An adversary against God ..
Peter was told to get behind the Lord when He tried to keep Jesus from going to the Cross , it looked as if it was Gods will that no one perishes , especially Jesus , but Jesus was sent to do just that and the Lord said , For this reason I was sent , you are mindful of the things of GOD but the things that be of men ...
preserve themselves and have a flesh and blood king to rule over them , but flesh and blood has never inherited the things of God and never can be so
the Cross looked weak and pitiful to the outward appearance of things , causing even more unbelief and doubt and failure , but they did not understand the power of God by His own Spirit to raise up Jesus Christ in all authority and now taking away the works of satan's power over mankind , that the covenant of death was broken by the new covenant of grace in our Lord JESUS CHRIST BEGIN TO RULE over all mankind .. from the beginning death had ruled in the hearts of mankind and a law of themselves , till Moses and the law was the ministration of death for those whom loved death and died without mercy that never showed mercy either , exposing the hypocrisy of pride and respecter of persons in the earth by violence and hatred and calamity , chaos and confusion and every evil work of their hands under the sun , hidden in the dark heart of mankind .
Whom killed the called and chosen of God as the law and prophets died by the violence and lastly Gods own Son , there is no more excuses left but to wait upon but the Lord Jesus Christ , the LIGHT HAS COME , Himself and all those gathered up from the earth into Him already as the Living Word and His feet are in the earth teaching us Truth by HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS Being the Light and knowledge of Gods Wisdom to Shine in the darkness and His marvelous Light , there is no darkness in Him at all . everything is exposed by it openly shown to us .
But it was made known to all whom believe in the power of Jesus Christ cross that mercy and grace was given to those whom showed mercy and grace towards others in the same manner it was shown and given to them openly by the Light of HIS COMING to us whom hate the darkness and ignorance of not knowing the True and Living God but to serve Him with a pure heart towards God first and foremost of love , full of mercy and every good work ...
The Wisdom from Above not the subtle beastly wisdom that causes hurt and harm to the innocent .
13Who is wise and understanding among you?
Let him show it by his good conduct, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast in it or deny the truth.
15Such wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, accommodating, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.
The tree of Life are those eating its fruits and doing those things its fruits brings from the HOLY SPIRIT gifts by the Father of lights and spirits of just men being made perfect / completed in Christ ...
Quote from: jugghead on March 08, 2018, 07:07:43 PM
The logic in why I believe what I do is, religion teaches a concept of hell that people who believe in UR no longer believe, so why continue to believe in the concept of Satan the way religion teaches?
There are three things I no longer trust
1. religion
2. the people of religion
3. the words they speak
Amen to that :HeartThrob:
pure region undefiled , corrupted and ruined by Babylons pomp and pride . come out of Her my people ! so I can receive you into Myself
are to help the fatherless and the widow from Baylons curses and plagues in my opinion
made a widow , has no husband , Jesus is to be our true husband , head and authority over His own Body /true church
and fatherless are those whom do not know our HEAVENLY FATHER as their true and LIVING GOD
call no man father Matt 23 Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
(Luke 11:37-54)
1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2"The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensomea loads and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5
All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, 7the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of 'Rabbi' by which they are addressed.
8But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.13Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter.15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You traverse
land and sea to win a single convert,
and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.16Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes it sacred? 18And you say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes it sacred?
20So then, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the One who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the One who sits on it.
23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.
27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and every impurity. 28In the same way, you appear to be righteous on the outside, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' sins. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?
34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem
(Luke 13:31-35)
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say,
'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
:Chinscratch: very interesting.. about the adversary..
I'm very much into literal, whenever literal fits.. with sometimes a spiritual aspect or interpretation also. After all, the coming of Jesus was literal.. and that much most Christians agree on. :laughing7:
To me the angels - the Word seems to say are messengers.. the faithful messengers, being what we think of as angels. Because of the verse "left their first place", I think they, like humans have rationality and reasoning ability.
Now didn't God know potentially that thinking creatures can make choices?!
Then, according to the story, the seduction of Eve to disobey God's one rule, and so early on! Why didn't the first seduction to obey God's rule occur perhaps hundreds of years later.. and to one born some time after there was only the two!
Well, it's obvious, the Father wanted the effects of disobedience to be in all "pas"(?) "the whole".
He seems very orderly to me!
It's my theory rebel angels serve the top(?) purpose to speed things along! Having much more power, especially over the "air"... And more "global" reach, which I think of as being an important part of this - global, that is - of what I think of as God's truth and universal law proving drama. [Actually, the same story and portrayal, over and over, in every life, every age, every nation, etc, including "the whole" world.. global and collective, that sin ='s ruin. In this drama. (But God is the savior of all! All in heaven and Earth, being gathered into Jesus.
Quote from: Jason on March 08, 2018, 06:51:46 AM
Anyway, Jesus would not refer to Satan as "the father of lies" NOR as "a murderer from the beginning" if he wasn't a specific entity. If you are going to choose not to pay attention to "the" and "a" in these cases, then you may as well revert back to not believing that "all" means "all". Therefore then... you don't believe in The Victorious Gospel of Christ.
Well... that's only if you choose this path, I guess.
I'm not trying to cause division, simply pointing out that it's absurd to think Satan is the "carnal mind". How can the "carnal mind" flee from you if you flee from fornication? Will your "carnal mind" just leave and never come back? What about the parable about the strong man... is the "carnal mind" a man? Did Christ (being the stronger man) merely defeat the "carnal mind"? What about Judas? Was he the only apostle who had a "carnal mind" (even though they hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet)? Yet you say that the "devil" he had was only his "carnal mind".
There are probably millions MORE absurdities that take place other than the ones I've pointed out if Satan is merely the "carnal mind".
Dear Jason ,
Understanding bible meanings
How does satan flee from you ?,
Well if he represents darkness , than when you draw to the Light / Christ , he has to flee
the dark and the works of darkness flees from the light
turn on a light in a dark room and see if you can see the dark anymore .? BAM instant light , that is how you can compare it
the carnal mind dwells in the darkness , ignorant of God totally GOD IS SPIRIT , Carnal mind is the mind of a beast , 7 heads are earthly kings on satans head with ten horns , horn can be powers to persuade pertaining to or characterized by the flesh or the body, its passions and appetites; sensual: carnal pleasures. not spiritual; merely human; temporal; worldly: a man of secular, rather carnal, leanings.
look what the still yet carnal do here in Pauls babes are carnal still 1 Cor 3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ.
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it.
Indeed, you are still not ready.
You are still worldly. For since
there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are
you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos,"
are you not mere human beings? 1 Corinthians 2:6
Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom--but
not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For
they are foolishness to him, and he
cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment.16"For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?"
But we have the mind of Christ.Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness.
But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried
around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming.Hebrews 5:13
Everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness.
It is foolishness to the natural man , his mind cannot reason with Spiritual things at all ,
Thus the need for the mind of Christ
I do believe the wrestling is between both minds and makes us unstable in all our ways
Definition of double-minded. 1 : wavering in mind :
undecided, vacillating. a double-minded man unstable in all his ways. —James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Psalm 119:113
I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law.
James 1:7
That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
James 4:8
Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Still in the world and of it , we are supposed to be in the world but
not of it ..
IMO the purpose to having the mind of Christ is to think outside the box that religion puts all things.... and IMO; to put limits on anything keeps you from the infinite; that which has no limits
So who is Satan according to the Scriptures? The Bible teaches that Satan is the adversary or foe of every Christian. He is the initiator of sin in the Garden of Eden and he is the Antichrist which everyone fears will be a human being of super magnitude. He is the progenitor of false gospels along with being the progenitor of false teachers. He does not have the authority to do as he pleases as he is still under the authority of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not omnipotent nor omniscient and does not possess the ability to indwell a believer since the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. The Bible also portrays him as a defeated foe which has been judged and will be cast into the lake of fire for ages on the last day along with unbelievers. One grand scheme Satan has is to deny his own existence which, if successful, will free him up to do his work of deception.
Remember during the early years of the FBI when J. Edgar Hoover refused to believe the Mafia existed? His refusal to acknowledge their existence for many years allowed them to become very strong and well entrenched in many areas of society. So this is Satan's strategy also. If he can convince people he does not exist, he will become strongly entrenched in the world and not only the world, but in the church as well, where many are denying his existence already.
(Gen 3:14-15) And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: {15} And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Who was in the serpent? If Satan was the flesh of man then we have a problem. Adam and Eve were created in a pristine environment and were created pure themselves. Sin was not yet in the world but came in through an outside source. If Adam and Eve had the innate ability to sin, then we can charge God as creating them with sin in them already rather than them being created pure with the ability to sin, when sin was presented to them from an outside source. If Satan does not exist, did Eve hold a conversation with herself in the Garden of Eden? If she did, then what was the purpose of factoring in a serpent in the conversation? If you notice the content of verse 15, it speaks of an impending war, does this mean we are at war with serpents? The contents speaks of the coming war between Christ and Satan which will culminate on the last day when he is thrown into the lake of fire.
(1 Chr 21:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Did mere human flesh or a non-existent being provoke David? The usage of the name "Satan" in this verse and in Job 1 & 2 (12 times), Zechariah 3:1-2 (3 times), and Psalm 109:6 occurs these 17 times in the Old Testament as a Proper Noun. Okay, do you remember proper nouns from English 101? A proper noun is a noun which names or designates a particular or specific being or thing. Since flesh is not in view, and flesh is a thing, it must be a being.
(Job 1:6-7) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {7} And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Now where does the throne of God exist? In heaven or on earth? He is in heaven which means this episode in Job could not be flesh but has to be a supernatural being. If a mere mortal stands in the presence of God, they would be struck dead. Remember Moses who only got a glimpse of the glory of God? What would happen if a mere man stood in the presence? That would be instant death.
(Mat 4:1-10) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. {2} And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered. {3} And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. {4} But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {5} Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, {6} And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. {7} Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {8} Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; {9} And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. {10} Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Here is the narrative of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness. Notice the personal pronoun "him" used in verses 7, 9, & 10. The word "him" is the word "autw" (auto) which is the same word used 3 times. It is a personal pronoun, singular and in the dative case. The dative case may also be referred to as the case of personal interest. In the three instances above it is used to express to whom or for whom the action of the verb is done. So we see in the 3 verses the words "said" and "saith" which are two verbs denoting action. We can also plainly see that the devil is the recipient of the action of those verbs. If Satan does not exist, then who was Jesus speaking to? His flesh? Impossible because the grammar will not allow it. The words of Jesus were aimed right at Satan and because the dative is used in this case, he was speaking to another being. The three uses of "him" are also singular which means the words of Christ were aimed at a single person.
In verse 3 we have the same scenario with the same word except for one difference. This time the tempter came to Christ, "to him." So here the tempter was speaking to Christ which means, by the dative again, we have a dialogue taking place between two persons, Christ and Satan. Therefore, if someone wants to deny the existence of Satan, they must definitely cut the temptations of Christ out of their Bible.
(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
If Satan does not exist, then why is the Bible explicitly stating that Satan has a kingdom. The word "his" is the same word as we saw in Matthew 4 except this occurrence is not in the dative it is in the genitive case which shows ownership or possession. You see the personal pronoun is used here instead of the antecedent noun "Satan." The word "himself" is also a personal pronoun except this word is in the accusative case which normally shows who is the receiver of the action of the verb. Both "cast out" and "divided" are the verbs in question with "himself" as the receiver of the action. So here we see that if Satan's kingdom is divided or he casts himself out, his kingdom will fall. This language tells us we are dealing with a bona fide kingdom and not a mythological or medieval invention.
(Mark 4:15) And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
As soon as an unbeliever hears the word of God being preached, Satan has the ability to steal or cause this person to forget what they heard. His fallen angels will also do this type of work. No one knows how many angels rebelled with Satan but he has many.
(Luke 10:18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Now if Satan is a synonym for the flesh or doesn't exist, what person was up in heaven falling? The word "fall" is the Greek word "piptw" (pipto) which may also be translated "fall down, fall in ruins, fail, go astray, perish." This verse definitely speaks of the fall of a being named Satan. This verse could be speaking of Satan's being expelled from heaven or his fall in the Garden of Eden, but whatever it specifically points to, it reveals an actual personage involved.
(Luke 22:31-32) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: {32} But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
The word "sift" here means to put through a great trial as Satan had desired to test Peter probably on the scale he tested Job. The words "desired to" are very strong in the Greek and signifies that Satan demanded to have Peter. The name "Satan" in this sentence is in the Nominative case which shows the subject of the sentence. Peter is not the subject here but Satan who comes and demands that Christ give Peter up to him for testing. Again, how then can Satan be the flesh or non-existent.
(Rom 16:20) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
In this verse "Satan" is in the Accusative case which means he is the receiver of the action of the verb. The verb in this case is "bruise" which means "smashing, breaking or shatter." These are all figures of what will happen to Satan on the last day.
(2 Cor 2:10-11) To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; {11} Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
The words "his devices" reveal to us that Satan's schemes or plots are real. The Corinthians were to forgive the man who sinned against God in 1 Corinthians 5 lest Satan takes advantage of them with one of his devices or schemes. The word "his" again reveals in personal pronoun form that this is a real person.
(2 Cor 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Paul is warning the people about Satan's schemes. One of the major schemes is that Satan will be transforming himself (middle voice verb) into an angel or messenger of light. He will come with all deceptive gospels to lead astray as many as possible. Satan here is in the nominative case which means once again he is the subject of the sentence. Satan exists according to this passage also.
(Rev 12:7-10) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. {10} And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Here is a straight forward portion of Scripture which gives some detail between the forces of Christ and the forces of Satan. If Satan does not exist, then who is Michael waging war against? Then who is being cast out of heaven? This surely cannot be speaking of some human who is clothed with flesh, since there is no flesh in heaven because it is a spiritual place. Not only was Satan cast out of heaven but also his army of demons.
(1 Pet 5:8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Here we see that the devil is our adversary and he comes in the manner of a roaring lion. The roaring lion is a hungry animal seeking prey and Satan sees Christians as prey although he cannot have us, he will do what he can to hinder us.
(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
If Satan does not exist or is a synonym for the flesh, then who is the angel from heaven binding for a thousand years, which is figurative for the Sabbath Period? What human being can live for a couple thousand years?
(Rev 20:7-8) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Here we see the rest of the story which began in Verse 1. When Satan is to be loosed from his prison or his binding, then he will once again be given permission to roam free and deceive the nations in a final deception. Satan has deceived many that he doesn't exist. He is deceiving the nations as you read this article.
(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
Here is the rest of the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say. Satan who deceived them will be cast (thrown) into the lake of fire to the ages of the ages. In the same breath, verse 11 speaks of the Great White Throne judgment of all the unbelievers. Then if Satan is the flesh or does not exist, who is getting thrown into the lake of fire before the great judgment of the unbelievers even begins?
(Isa 14:12-17) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Shining one, son of the dawn! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit. {16} They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; {17} That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
This passage of Scripture has been so falsely interpreted by the "Satan doesn't exist" crowd. They have applied this passage to Christ because it speaks of a light bearer. However, look at the rest of the passage and let us ask the following questions: Did Christ weaken the nations? Did Christ have a prideful heart and seek to exalt himself? Did Christ make the world a wilderness? Did He destroy the cities and have prisoners? These statements only apply to Satan and not to Christ.
Furthermore, Satan is a light-bringer, even if it's false light that he brings. He brings the glory of the law, the ministration of death. God caused Moses face to shine so that the people couldn't even look upon him. Thus it is with Satan as well. He is "O Shining one" who deceives people with his brilliance, miracles, etc.
He is also clearly Leviathan (and by extension also clearly Behemoth), that wicked piercing serpent (Isaiah 27, Job 41, Job 40). God resists the proud. His chief characteristic is pride.
But hey, he doesn't exist!... and for that matter neither do other angels (non-human messengers) such as Gabriel. Tell Daniel and Gabriel that Satan doesn't exist. Tell Peter, Paul and every other saint. Tell Joseph, Mary, and Zacharias that the angel they saw doesn't exist. They will tell you that you're Satan's property. Tell Judas Iscariot that he betrayed Jesus Christ Himself of his own "carnal mind" and that Satan had no part in it. Tell Daniel that he didn't see Jesus Christ, and that Gabriel didn't strengthen him. Tell Daniel that Gabriel lied to him, and Jesus Christ did not come to aid Gabriel in his fight against the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" - Satan.
Also while you're at it, tell Mary Magdalene and the other Mary that they definitely did NOT see "the angel (messenger) of the Lord whose countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow" - who made the keepers shake in fear and become as dead men.
You see, there aren't any of these "angels", they definitely aren't "sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation."
After all, "dost thou think that I am not able now to call upon my Father, and He will place beside me more than twelve legions of angels (messengers)?" - such as Gabriel, and... right here, right at this moment is what Jesus Christ was speaking about - not humans slowly traveling to where He was (they appear like lightning, one second they are not there, and then they are the next second) - "yea, while I am speaking in prayer, then that one Gabriel, whom I had seen in vision at the commencement, being caused to fly swiftly, is coming unto me at the time of the evening present." - hmmm... but nooooooooooo, we don't believe in these angelic messengers of God, only men and God exist, definitely no Satan or angels...
"What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
the son of man that you care for him?
7 You made him a little lower than the angels (messengers);
you crowned him with glory and honor
8 and put everything under his feet."
Yeah, Satan's most prominent characteristic is pride. God resists Satan (the proud). Does the bible matter? Is the "truth about the truth" insignificant? (most likely all of you have read books which aren't a version of the bible - the "truth about the truth about the truth").
Also I guess I didn't change the "everlasting part" in the very start of previous post, I obviously meant until God becomes All in All but missed that portion.
This Satan is the chief of the ways of God (meaning His crowning creation, or what should've been... maybe after he's cleansed in the lake of fire). He that made him can make His sword to approach unto him. - Behemoth, Piercing, Wicked Leviathan - is covered by the shady trees, hmm shady (corrupt) trees. They cover him with their shadow (lies, ridiculous Hollywood garbage that makes it seem like there's no way he could ever exist, not to mention knowledge about words or simply translating things differently to cast doubt upon his existence). They say he doesn't exist. None is so fierce that dare stir him up. His heart is as firm as a stone (he's set in his ways of pride/iniquity/vanity etc?). "nether millstone the lower of a pair of millstones, as the type of something hard and unyielding," - plenty more of these types of descriptions in Job 40, 41 and Isaiah 27 CONFIRMS Leviathan is Satan.
If the Master had known what hour the thief would come, He wouldn't have suffered his house to be broken up. Doesn't that say something quite astounding about Satan? I mean, in the Genesis account it would seem that God did not know that Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil at first... (or was he just lying? no, He can't/won't lie).
I mean... it's so obvious that Satan is an actual evil angel...
Quote from: Jason on March 09, 2018, 02:15:04 AM
[edited by Jason] Does the bible matter? Is the "truth about the truth" insignificant? (most likely all of you have read books which aren't a version of the bible - the "truth about the truth about the truth").
Jason, we make room here for more than one interpretation/understanding of scripture - within what is deemed "reasonable" bounds. That's not always easy, but it's the moderators' jobs to assess and determine that. That's why we encourage posting as IMO, I believe, as I understand, etc., rather than one person pushing their individual understandings on everyone else as absolute "fact" with no room for discussion other than "then you just don't believe the Bible", "you're not a believer", etc. Please post as requested above, and that will leave room for others to respond without it turning into a "I'm right/you're wrong" struggle/unnecessary divisiveness and harshness. Thanks.
Thank you for your edit. That will help us move forward. :thumbsup:
Gotcha, but Jesus spoke with authority. Given that I haven't actually heard God speaking to me (at least not clearly) everything I posted is all what I believe. Sorry for posting it in such a manner.
He did. We're not Him. And this is someone else's venue. Thanks for understanding.
I know it's frustrating to strongly believe something, and then see others have such different understandings of what may seem so obvious to you/me/us (and conversely, them), etc..... and passion is a good thing. But that's part of the imperfect human experience for us all I suppose (IMO :LH:)
As I said earlier, I actually personally agree with what you're posting. But that doesn't matter re: the specifics of posting. It's just a proven formula that seems to work better (or at least preferred by those who run the boards) than what has occurred in the past here, and still does occur in many other places - arguing, insulting, name-calling, power struggling, "somebody's gotta win" every argument - that can occur if room isn't made for opinion/understanding.
I've actually decided that from the next new member on, I'm going to send out a personal email at account approval to be sure and review the "First Post" section prior to making a first post. It lays these things out there, including a statement that making a first post indicates agreement to abide by these forum guidelines. Apparently people are missing it, as first posts are showing up in various places besides that particular "required" first post board. So I'm taking responsibility for being sure folks are aware of that, and you're the last one that sneaked in under the wire ;) :laugh:
Thanks again, it's a process. Onward and upward. :dsunny:
Gonna take this opportunity to throw out a bunch of various but hopefully related thoughts - more in general than specifically.
As far as the topic; I guess I have absolutely no disagreement with everything you (Jason) have posted about this topic. I personally believe in layers of scriptures, that things have a spiritual significance, and that some things are even HIGHLY symbolic. On the other hand, I believe some things are literal and/or point to a literal concept, and should not be over spiritualized. Now here's my guess. I'd guess some in this thread think you, me, and maybe a couple others, would be over-literalizing some things; while I'm also guessing we might think some others are over-spiritualizing some things. All looking at the same scriptures, all believing the Bible, but still coming up with significantly different takes on it. Strange huh? Honestly, I personally don't truly get it, i.e., why many things aren't more clear-cut to us. Seems we humans - even ardent believers - still can be miles apart on what I'd call non-essentials. Confuses me. I guess that's where living in peace with one another as "much as depends on me" comes in. Unify as much as possible, even with - maybe in - disagreement. Sounds like a tough trick to me, but I guess a worthy goal to strive toward.
rosie, you and I for instance, apparently see this particular topic fairly differently ( a few others too). But that's OK. I value your friendship through the years, fellowship on these boards, etc., and on a topic like this, I think we'd both refuse to 'divide" over it. It's not worth it. We both believe in trusting and following Jesus, and He will hold us in His grasp and lead us along. If it were an "essential" of the faith, such as if you came out one day and said "Jesus isn't the son of God", then you bet I'd divide with you over it. Well, at first I'd try to convince you otherwise - probably briefly, actually - and if you refused to believe, then I'd move on. Our fellowship would be hindered if not broken, ("don't even eat a meal with such a one"). OTOH, I'd encourage you to do the same, if I found myself in obvious, open apostasy. Confront me, try to "redeem" me, if not, then shake the dust and leave me in God's hands. But over probably 95% of the scriptures, that are obviously important, even vital - yet not the very most basic essentials of the faith - IMO, it's just not worth ripping each other up over it. Admittedly, been there and done that, guilty. But I don't think it's the ideal. :2c:
-------
Oh well, anyway, to the ACTUAL OP, does Pharaoh typify satan...I don't think I've ever actually weighed in on that. I think I'd say yes, as in typify, symbolize, represent, be a symbol of. But mainly, I think satan is satan and pharaoh was pharaoh. And as Forrest Gump said, "THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT". :laugh:
IMO
The Spirit of God has been and is with us always.
There is no doubt we live in God.
Amen. :HeartThrob:
:dsunny: :friendstu: :thumbsup:
I did actually realize this morning that Pride is the biggest enemy we face. We overcome Him by The Spirit of God. I had never really thought of Satan as Pride Himself until this morning.
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2018, 03:43:24 AM
Gonna take this opportunity to throw out a bunch of various but hopefully related thoughts - more in general than specifically.
As far as the topic; I guess I have absolutely no disagreement with everything you (Jason) have posted about this topic. I personally believe in layers of scriptures, that things have a spiritual significance, and that some things are even HIGHLY symbolic. On the other hand, I believe some things are literal and/or point to a literal concept, and should not be over spiritualized. Now here's my guess. I'd guess some in this thread think you, me, and maybe a couple others, would be over-literalizing some things; while I'm also guessing we might think some others are over-spiritualizing some things. All looking at the same scriptures, all believing the Bible, but still coming up with significantly different takes on it. Strange huh? Honestly, I personally don't truly get it, i.e., why many things aren't more clear-cut to us. Seems we humans - even ardent believers - still can be miles apart on what I'd call non-essentials. Confuses me. I guess that's where living in peace with one another as "much as depends on me" comes in. Unify as much as possible, even with - maybe in - disagreement. Sounds like a tough trick to me, but I guess a worthy goal to strive toward.
rosie, you and I for instance, apparently see this particular topic fairly differently ( a few others too). But that's OK. I value your friendship through the years, fellowship on these boards, etc., and on a topic like this, I think we'd both refuse to 'divide" over it. It's not worth it. We both believe in trusting and following Jesus, and He will hold us in His grasp and lead us along. If it were an "essential" of the faith, such as if you came out one day and said "Jesus isn't the son of God", then you bet I'd divide with you over it. Well, at first I'd try to convince you otherwise - probably briefly, actually - and if you refused to believe, then I'd move on. Our fellowship would be hindered if not broken, ("don't even eat a meal with such a one"). OTOH, I'd encourage you to do the same, if I found myself in obvious, open apostasy. Confront me, try to "redeem" me, if not, then shake the dust and leave me in God's hands. But over probably 95% of the scriptures, that are obviously important, even vital - yet not the very most basic essentials of the faith - IMO, it's just not worth ripping each other up over it. Admittedly, been there and done that, guilty. But I don't think it's the ideal. :2c:
-------
Oh well, anyway, to the ACTUAL OP, does Pharaoh typify satan...I don't think I've ever actually weighed in on that. I think I'd say yes, as in typify, symbolize, represent, be a symbol of. But mainly, I think satan is satan and pharaoh was pharaoh. And as Forrest Gump said, "THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT". :laugh:
Bro James ,
It is nothing I wanted to prove to anyone , and do not have to be right , I think being loving is right and a peacemaker , I hope no one is offended over this thread ... Satan is allowed to eat our flesh that his his lot /portion and food
But what will he do when there is no more flesh to eat any longer ? , I believe his work will be done ! ,
Oh destroyer ,
Isaiah 33 1Woe to you, O destroyer, While you were not destroyed;
And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.
As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed; As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.
2O LORD, be gracious to us; we have waited for You. Be their strength every morning, Our salvation also in the time of distress....
I believe we all will be very much praising God for everything He has done and humbled by Him in every way .
I confess in my searching out the scriptures , I am learning too .
I have by now learned never say never :laughing7:
As far as Satan goes , I do believe God uses him for proving a point , a learning tool if you will and I always called Satan a beast on a short leash .
Greater than us most certainly and serves everyone as well , He can only go as far as God allows him to go .
I see the 7 heads on Levathains heads as Kings of the earth and one is Pharaoh , You are right I do see them as Symbolic [Image of the Beast] corruptible at that , none are still kings of the earth now , they all died as men .
I see satan as an image , as a messenger of bad news ,a serpent , certainly not mortal or flesh but thrives on devouring it , in our minds eye we can see the damage done by his presence in the earth God has given him certain wisdom and powers over the masses , peoples over the ages as well ..
He does serve God in ways , a most undesirable job description ever .
Satan is the total opposite of Jesus Christ in ever way .
But all things work together for the good of those whom Love the Lord God and are called according to His purpose .
I must clarify , I understand at this time satan as a serpent of old , a serpent is of cunning wisdom and symbolically a beast that God created on the 6th day , Just as Jesus is Symbolically a Lamb of God We also know and believe that These things are also spiritually symbolic as well .
and both have opposing minds that think entirely differently , one is of the world only a power , Satan/serpent is cut off from any knowledge of the the heavens now after the great war in heaven Rev 12 and the other wisdom from above Lamb of God is of all things heaven and earth and below .all power .
Genesis 1
24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth
and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
9 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit.
You shall have them for food.
30 And uto every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth,
everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 vAnd God saw everything that he had made, and behold,
it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning,
the sixth day. We are symbolically compared to many things as well , our flesh is as grass , and trees planted by the waters and tender shoots , wheat and tares . sheep and goats , birds of the air men as brute beasts etc ... many scriptures of symbolic meanings to at least consider .
I value friendships also Brother , and yours as well and never want you to think bullying is ok , it is never ok . I hope no one ever thinks that or acts in such ways as that on this forum.
We are all trying to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH , that the Lord will set His whole creation free from , One beautiful Day . :HeartThrob: :friendstu:
Quote from: Jason on March 09, 2018, 04:29:36 AM
IMO
The Spirit of God has been and is with us always.
There is no doubt we live in God.
Amen. :HeartThrob:
:dsunny: :friendstu: :thumbsup:
I did actually realize this morning that Pride is the biggest enemy we face. We overcome Him by The Spirit of God. I had never really thought of Satan as Pride Himself until this morning.
:dsunny: :friendstu: :HeartThrob: yay!! the pride of life 1 john 2
15Do not love the world or anything in the world.
If anyone loves the world,
the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world —
the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life — is not from the Father but from the world. 17The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever.
Everything here is very temporary and full of hate and opposes the Love of God big time :dsunny:
:angelharp:
Hello everyone,
I enjoyed this thread and all of the viewpoints.
I am at a point where I feel that I don't know a lot (and probably none of us do). It makes for a tricky time trying to teach my kids, but I also in a way think it's preferrable to those who teach with an authority that they don't really have. It's true that Christians all have so many different interpretations of truth. When I take a step back I really just try to pray and ask for guidance, but ultimately I don't know if God wants to tell us all the answers. I sometimes think He wants our trust without knowing it all, and just leaning on his day to day guidance. Of course that's hard too.
I don't know if Satan is metaphorical or literal and how much power it wields.
One thought I have on this subject is that of fairness. Wouldn't those people who were unknowingly decieved by an evil being think it hugely unfair that they are then judged for their actions? This life is hard enough to seek the light and do good...let alone having an invisible spirit or beings working against us.
But who am I to judge God's plan and motives, I know He is Love and works all things for the ultimate good.
I have experienced evil in this world as we all have and I always think it's possible that there are unseen evil forces (Satan demons etc) but it very well could be that all of the evil comes from the pit in our own minds and hardness of heart. Or both.
I also think the more power we give to evil the stronger it becomes, whether or not the evil is a being or a thought.
Jesus recognised a difference between the kingdom to come- His- and the ruler of this present kingdom - satan.
John 18;36 " Jesus answered [Pilate],
' My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world then My servants would
be fighting to prevent Me from being handed over to the Jews;
but as it is, My kingdom is NOT from here."
Paul recognises this in Colossians 1;13
" He has rescued us from the tyranny of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom
of His beloved Son."
God transferring us out of the current kingdom or the enemy - Satan- into the coming kingdom of His Son Jesus.
Would be why Paul stated in the 3rd chapter that we are now hidden "in Christ" until His return. So I.M.O our protection is for this age from the full power of Satan, but we go through things to learn- pretty much like being in a classroom and going through scenarios, at the end of the day you leave the classroom and the data is recorded in the brain, yet not overpowering us.
I.M.O these is indeed a real adversary- but am I focussing on him, or Jesus. Whichever format we see him should not matter as he is merely a distraction throwing all sorts of concepts onto our plate; we just need to sort the healthy from the rubbish which requires spiritual perception/wisdom which is only In Christ; so why go anywhere else?
Quote from: Jason on March 09, 2018, 04:29:36 AM
I did actually realize this morning that Pride is the biggest enemy we face. We overcome Him by The Spirit of God. I had never really thought of Satan as Pride Himself until this morning.
Which suggests that you may be learning to revise your position on Satan, Satan cannot be an independent being and our pride at the same time, historically pride has been associated with the carnal mind which you have been denying that Satan is.
As for you long post, where to begin, I know I'll have to delete the quote from it because this will get too long.
So, firstly Satan is actually taught as being God's enemy first and our enemy second his endeavor is to hurt God by hurting us, that's how the symbol is presented. Of course knowing thsi still doesn't mean I believe in the existence of an actual fallen angel who wanders the Earth attempting to get us to sin or goes to God and tries to persuade Him to allow him to put us to tests God already knows whether we'll pass or not, that's not the point.
Also it's not fair and seems disingenuous to compare my denial of the existence of the character of Satan with Hoover's denial of the Mafia (which I actaully don't remember and young-ish and English). Hoover's denial was absolute and allowed the Mafia to carry on regardless, however I believe in God and my responsibility to Him, therefore if Satan tempts me it's still on me to recognize and resist that temptation irrespective of where I feel it comes from and I know that I need God to give me the strength to do that. I believe Satan exists I just don't think the term means what you think it does but I still think whatever it is poses a potential danger to me and others.
When you talk to me about the Garden of Eden you seem to be imagining I take that story historically minus the actually role of Satan which I don't, I believe it may have taken place in some other spiritual realm which humans have (or had) connection to but I struggle to hold that it could have happened in actual history when the science doesn't support it, though I do know the science could be incorrect for any number of reasons. So, year, I kind of think Eve was taking to herself but perhaps the internal dialogue didn't go down quote as presented in the Bible. I'm pretty opened minded about this because I've adapted my thoughts about it several times.
Quote(1 Chr 21:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
(2 Sam. 24:1) 'Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."'
So should we read that 'Satan' = 'the anger of the LORD' here? There are numerous ways people have interpreted the contradiction here but they seem strangely inclined to reject that one. It doesn't much matter I think, whichever interpretation you pick it's not finally provable.
I've already described what I think about the use of the term 'Satan' in Job, in Zechariah it's clearly being used for prophesy. the Psalmic reference is the most interesting, you have referenced either the KJV or the Webster translation it would seem. I can tell this because, despite your claim, multiple modern translation no longer use the proper noun here. Yes, I know English grammar, kind of, but the OT was written in Hebrew which has different grammar rules. The translators supply the grammar they think fits when translating it, I expect Greek grammar is better but it still does correspond to English in the way you would like it to, to make your argument work.
Quote(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
I have written a set of articles on why I believe what I believe on some of what I hold to be the more important point s of the Bible, which is why I don't want to answer too much of this point here, but what I will say is that I suspect you may be missing the point. I wouldn't at all put it past Satan (if he exists) to divide his kingdom against it's self because Satan is evil and evil has no common sense of the king Jesus is expressing here, if he did he would think 'opposing God - worse idea EVER!'. And due to Satan obvious lack of common sense we can be rest assured that his kingdom, in fact, will not stand and that Jesus has already overthrown it.
Quote(2 Cor 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Paul's claim here is interesting, it seems to be alluding to this Pseudepigraphal text:
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/adamnev.htm
Of course, it just as possible and perhaps probable, that the writer of the test had this verse in mind.
Quote(Isa 14:12-17) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Shining one, son of the dawn! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit. {16} They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; {17} That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Wow, I don't know why the Satan doesn't exist crowd would do this, obviously it's not Jesus. The passage is part of of prophesy against Babylon and it's king who is the actual subject of the text, I thought this was clearly understood by everyone.
I'd like to answer more of you points but I think that's enough to be going on with, and I do not believe the Bible doesn't matter just because I understand it differently to how you do. I thus believe differently which may or may not be correct but I expect my beliefs will remain as long as I feel I can defend them.
QuoteQuote
(Isa 14:12-17) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Shining one, son of the dawn! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit. {16} They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; {17} That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Wow, I don't know why the Satan doesn't exist crowd would do this, obviously it's not Jesus. The passage is part of of prophesy against Babylon and it's king who is the actual subject of the text, I thought this was clearly understood by everyone.
I'd like to answer more of you points but I think that's enough to be going on with, and I do not believe the Bible doesn't matter just because I understand it differently to how you do. I thus believe differently which may or may not be correct but I expect my beliefs will remain as long as I feel I can defend them.
Hi CST ,
Yes how in the world did that Lucifer ? latin , the.only latin word in the KJV get in there and remain ?
That is why I called that ol serpent a beast of the sea , many peoples tongues and nations and it is a prideful lot those kings of the earth that have risen up in pride only to be brought low and die as men
but it was Symbolically under satan's/ adversary influence in my opinion
But the word "heylel" could also be derived from the primitive root word "yalal". This is mentioned far less often by scholars as the potential source for the word "heylel", but this is grammatically just as much a possibility for being the root of "heylel" as is the word "halal". If this is the correct root word, then the word "heylel" in Isaiah 14:12 is not unique at all, because the word "heylel" derived from the root word "yalal" is also found in some other verses in the Old Testament.
Supposed to be Halal the howler , wailer not Lucifer the light bringer and disguising himself angel of light fallen angel
It is the king of tyre a [rock] not the True ROCK Jesus Christ .
We had a fellow whose moniker was Halal meaning howler but did not know it at the time lol , what a discovery that was
I hope you guys keep on leaning and sharing your posts . Blessings to you all
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2018, 03:43:24 AM
Gonna take this opportunity to throw out a bunch of various but hopefully related thoughts - more in general than specifically.
As far as the topic; I guess I have absolutely no disagreement with everything you (Jason) have posted about this topic. I personally believe in layers of scriptures, that things have a spiritual significance, and that some things are even HIGHLY symbolic. On the other hand, I believe some things are literal and/or point to a literal concept, and should not be over spiritualized. Now here's my guess. I'd guess some in this thread think you, me, and maybe a couple others, would be over-literalizing some things; while I'm also guessing we might think some others are over-spiritualizing some things. All looking at the same scriptures, all believing the Bible, but still coming up with significantly different takes on it. Strange huh? Honestly, I personally don't truly get it, i.e., why many things aren't more clear-cut to us. Seems we humans - even ardent believers - still can be miles apart on what I'd call non-essentials. Confuses me. I guess that's where living in peace with one another as "much as depends on me" comes in. Unify as much as possible, even with - maybe in - disagreement. Sounds like a tough trick to me, but I guess a worthy goal to strive toward.
rosie, you and I for instance, apparently see this particular topic fairly differently ( a few others too). But that's OK. I value your friendship through the years, fellowship on these boards, etc., and on a topic like this, I think we'd both refuse to 'divide" over it. It's not worth it. We both believe in trusting and following Jesus, and He will hold us in His grasp and lead us along. If it were an "essential" of the faith, such as if you came out one day and said "Jesus isn't the son of God", then you bet I'd divide with you over it. Well, at first I'd try to convince you otherwise - probably briefly, actually - and if you refused to believe, then I'd move on. Our fellowship would be hindered if not broken, ("don't even eat a meal with such a one"). OTOH, I'd encourage you to do the same, if I found myself in obvious, open apostasy. Confront me, try to "redeem" me, if not, then shake the dust and leave me in God's hands. But over probably 95% of the scriptures, that are obviously important, even vital - yet not the very most basic essentials of the faith - IMO, it's just not worth ripping each other up over it. Admittedly, been there and done that, guilty. But I don't think it's the ideal. :2c:
-------
Oh well, anyway, to the ACTUAL OP, does Pharaoh typify satan...I don't think I've ever actually weighed in on that. I think I'd say yes, as in typify, symbolize, represent, be a symbol of. But mainly, I think satan is satan and pharaoh was pharaoh. And as Forrest Gump said, "THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT". :laugh:
... :cloud9: :ty: James
! that was
awe-some..
Quote from: rosered on March 09, 2018, 03:51:34 PM
I hope you guys keep on leaning and sharing your posts . Blessings to you all
Amen Rose! :thumbsup: :gsmile: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup:Jabcat Satan is Satan..Pharoah is pharoah..used as a pawn by the kingdom of darkness to hold Israel in captivity! :2c:
I believe that denying Satan's existence is by extension denying Jesus Christ's existence. Normal serpents don't talk, nor do they tempt or beguile people. Isn't Satan the god of this age, the prince/ruler of this world, Leviathan, Behemoth, that old dragon, the serpent, the devil? If we're being honest when we talk about infinity, then doesn't reducing Satan to non-existent or the "carnal mind" go 100% against that idea? It would be honest to give him the credence that Jesus Christ gave him - the prince/ruler of this world.
I believe it's blasphemy to say Satan does not exist. Leviathan is also referred to as a whirlpool. Any ship of faith that denies a whirlpool or storm or Destroyer's existence will be destroyed. It probably already has been. You don't just say that a whirlpool doesn't exist and then proceed to go through it, otherwise you get sucked in and your ship is wrecked and all the passengers die. In the case of Euroclydon, the ship was destroyed but the passengers lived (by abandoning ship). We literally get our term "nor'easter" from Euroclydon which signifies the STRENGTH of a storm. Flesh is weak, Spirit is strong; so it is with Satan - the Spirit of evil. He is the chief of the ways of God. Namely because God is using him to bring about His (God's) will.
The difficulty in reconciling the statement in 1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan . . . moved David," with that of 2 Samuel 24:1, "the Lord moved David," is not problematic. All temptation is permitted by God, but not caused by God. When evil spirits tempt us, they do so by permission (Job 1:12, 2:6; Luke 22:31). Satan therefore provoked David to number the people, and God allowed him to do so. God allows those things which serve to advance His holy and perfect will.
When I said that Satan is Pride Himself I meant that it's his chief characteristic, he wants to be God and sadly enough, he is the god of this world. His schemes are working, because God is letting Satan be the god of this world. If it were not so, how would that detestable doctrine of "eternal torment" be so prevalent? I believe when you deny Satan's existence, you deny God.
I think that Satan brings the most glory to Jesus Christ. This is so, because the one to whom the most is forgiven will be the one who loves his Master the most. Satan is that one. :HeartThrob: True LOVE is unfathomable to fleshly man. His name is Yahweh. His Son is Jesus Christ (or Yahshua - Yah saves/delivers). Without Satan as the Resistor, would God get Himself even nearly a fraction of the honor and glory He gets with Satan?
Ahhh, the greatness of God. Yet we have that tiny little dot of existence known as Mount Everest... prideful man thinking that it will exist for eternity(est?) or that it is so high that it is eternally(est?) tall...
I laughed my butt off when God put this thought in my mind.
Yet, God plays with Satan as with a bird.
Shall you not be cast down even at the sight of Satan? Job was.
"There go the ships (of faith?): there is that Leviathan, whom you have made to play therein." - did not David know about Satan?
I would just like to finish with the scripture, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." - for I believe this is what has happened when you deny Satan's existence.
Jason
Why do you think Satan is so angry ?
and why does he only have a short time ?
What do you think that means ?
Rev 12 ...11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death.
12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time."
13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child....
So Satan uses bodies to do his dirty work in, I see this as Satan in King Herod in the above scripts . This Beast that was ,and is and yet to come , Like Hitler was also in his time and many more anti Christs spirits using the carnal mind to rule over it and body and your life is focused on death and horrid violence , hurt and harm with suffering and destruction, greed evey despised thing ,not Life .
I actually think it is both an evil spirit and carnal mind that conceive such vile things to do as the prey on the innocent and their bodies are the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction ..
So the carnal mind is an enemy against the Spirit , going to keep this short lol , so here are some heavy hitters to at least consider
Satan is not your friend or to be commended for anything :sigh: , I think you may be right about PRIDE and GOD hates pride , He humbles everyone especially Satan , I think that is why Satan is so angry .
Romans 8 ...6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:
It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God....
Colossians 2:18
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind,
James 4:4
You adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God.
Leviathan made a covenant of death with God in Job 41 But Jesus is annuling it , so it is a short work in righteousness in the earth that JESUS WHOM IS LORD of lord and KING of kings and conquers every last enemy even Death its self and that really burns Satan up with fury .
Is anyone saying they don't believe there's a satan? Or more so there are different interpretations as to what that is? That's what I see, but hey, I've been wrong many times before :laugh:
QuoteI believe that denying Satan's existence is by extension denying Jesus Christ's existence. Normal serpents don't talk, nor do they tempt or beguile people. Isn't Satan the god of this age, the prince/ruler of this world, Leviathan, Behemoth, that old dragon, the serpent, the devil? If we're being honest when we talk about infinity, then doesn't reducing Satan to non-existent or the "carnal mind" go 100% against that idea? It would be honest to give him the credence that Jesus Christ gave him - the prince/ruler of this world.
Just to play "Devil's advocate" it could be interpreted that the carnal mind is the god of this age. Even as Believers in Christ, do we still struggle with living in the flesh? Does that not have the most power over us, which only Christ in us is greater than?
Just hypothetically speaking here. Not studied well enough to make a strong opinion, but I lean a tiny bit more than before on Satan being the flesh. At gunpoint, though, I would still say he exists. Not as some omnipotent character, but as doing God's purposes, as God is always in control.
Quote from: Jason on March 10, 2018, 03:29:38 AM
I believe that denying Satan's existence is by extension denying Jesus Christ's existence. Normal serpents don't talk, nor do they tempt or beguile people. Isn't Satan the god of this age, the prince/ruler of this world, Leviathan, Behemoth, that old dragon, the serpent, the devil? If we're being honest when we talk about infinity, then doesn't reducing Satan to non-existent or the "carnal mind" go 100% against that idea? It would be honest to give him the credence that Jesus Christ gave him - the prince/ruler of this world.
I believe it's blasphemy to say Satan does not exist. Leviathan is also referred to as a whirlpool. Any ship of faith that denies a whirlpool or storm or Destroyer's existence will be destroyed. It probably already has been. You don't just say that a whirlpool doesn't exist and then proceed to go through it, otherwise you get sucked in and your ship is wrecked and all the passengers die. In the case of Euroclydon, the ship was destroyed but the passengers lived (by abandoning ship). We literally get our term "nor'easter" from Euroclydon which signifies the STRENGTH of a storm. Flesh is weak, Spirit is strong; so it is with Satan - the Spirit of evil. He is the chief of the ways of God. Namely because God is using him to bring about His (God's) will.
The difficulty in reconciling the statement in 1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan . . . moved David," with that of 2 Samuel 24:1, "the Lord moved David," is not problematic. All temptation is permitted by God, but not caused by God. When evil spirits tempt us, they do so by permission (Job 1:12, 2:6; Luke 22:31). Satan therefore provoked David to number the people, and God allowed him to do so. God allows those things which serve to advance His holy and perfect will.
When I said that Satan is Pride Himself I meant that it's his chief characteristic, he wants to be God and sadly enough, he is the god of this world. His schemes are working, because God is letting Satan be the god of this world. If it were not so, how would that detestable doctrine of "eternal torment" be so prevalent? I believe when you deny Satan's existence, you deny God.
I think that Satan brings the most glory to Jesus Christ. This is so, because the one to whom the most is forgiven will be the one who loves his Master the most. Satan is that one. :HeartThrob: True LOVE is unfathomable to fleshly man. His name is Yahweh. His Son is Jesus Christ (or Yahshua - Yah saves/delivers). Without Satan as the Resistor, would God get Himself even nearly a fraction of the honor and glory He gets with Satan?
Ahhh, the greatness of God. Yet we have that tiny little dot of existence known as Mount Everest... prideful man thinking that it will exist for eternity(est?) or that it is so high that it is eternally(est?) tall...
I laughed my butt off when God put this thought in my mind.
Yet, God plays with Satan as with a bird.
Shall you not be cast down even at the sight of Satan? Job was.
"There go the ships (of faith?): there is that Leviathan, whom you have made to play therein." - did not David know about Satan?
I would just like to finish with the scripture, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." - for I believe this is what has happened when you deny Satan's existence.
Jesus is Lord, (or should that be Jesus is LORD) . There I've just said what according to Paul can only be said by the Holy Spirit which, of course, I believe exists as I believe Jesus Christ exists and can say so. As I believe that Jesus is Christ, Jesus is law and Jesus is God. It doesn't mean I believe in the being known as Satan.
You may believe it blasphemy to say Satan does not exist, why? Blasphemy is to speak such as to malign God I'd have thought that the existence of such a being as Satan has more potential to malign God than his non-existence.
Leviathan is a word found more commonly in the Phonetic religions of Isreal's neighbours than it is in the Bible, where it only has three references which are not explained. It doesn't automatically sound like Satan given that it seems to be restricted to the sea in it's operation while Satan is clearly supposed to be active on land in human communities. I can't see where in those references Leviathan is referred to as a whirlpool, of course I believe whilpools exist they are natural phenomena and I know to avoid them.
You are missing my point about 2 Samuel, it clearly states the the LORD incited David against Israel because He was angry, it doesn't mentioned Satan. Why was God angry and why does he have to incite David against them if He is? Can't he just smite them like He did when they were led by Moses. Why does He need to involve David who He's presumably pleased with at this point? It's a very strange set up.
I'm dubious that when Paul used the term 'god of the world' he meant Satan in that case. If he did he was being a bit careless I feel given as that would give Satan a bit more credit than he is due, Satan is no sort of god and saying he is comes too close to justifying his claims on the throne which also appear to be reference in another non-biblical description of Satan (Satanael) which seems so blasphemous I don't wish to continue reading.
And at this point I'm sorry to say I feel that you are blaspheming, Satan is certainly not the one that loves God most. There are many stories about how Satan feel, none are in the Bible, of course, but they all seem to have one thing in common, that God refused Satan something and as a result he hates God and he hates us being in the image of God.
God does not need anything external to bring Him glory, He made all things and there is nothing greater than Him. He is entitled to all worship, all glory and all praise on account of being God and He will no one except Himself the opportunity to bring Him glory least they should also bring bring themselves glory and be able to boast. This is the blasphemy I believe you are committing in saying Satan will bring glory to God.
You ask if David did not know about Satan, honestly I have no idea. I doubt he understood Satan as any of us do even if your are right in you belief in Satan as a character; I doubt that the understand of that character has remained unchanging throughout time.
What do you mean you want to finish with scripture, scripture is the only authoritative text we have on this matter, so what exactly do you mean?
You wrote earlier:
QuoteI also read in a certain book that Satan is able to supercharge the air, causing certain moods to those who are in the area - there's no reason to doubt something like this, Satan has certainly been given quite a lot of power.
What book was this? Because if it wasn't the Bible than it has no authority for you to make your claim about how much power Satan has been given or the claim that there is no reason to doubt it. If it's not the Bible there's every reason to doubt it.
Do you think it is a winning argument to claim that "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."? Because the church professing it's self to be wise tends to claim roughly as you do. Thinking differently about Satan is the minority view I believe, is that anyway to gauge if it is right or not?
The Bible text does indeed often personify evil as Satan, but than the Bible also personifies a lot of other things, Death, Destruction, Sin, even Hades (I doubt John intends to give credence to the Greek god) but I don't think that we tend to believe these actually represent real beings that exist.
We all know Jesus Christ is Father Yahweh's right hand. Who is His left hand? I believe that there has to be another power that is just about equal to Jesus Christ, which would be Satan the devil. Well... it's fairly obvious to me. I believe that people who say Satan doesn't exist are giving way too much credit to flesh (that they are worshipping the creation rather than the Creator), and that they are not submitting themselves under God's mighty right hand, Jesus Christ. It just doesn't make sense to me to say that there are goats on the left hand and the righteous on the right hand, and yet saying that there is no ruler over the goats on the left hand. Obviously God controls both of his hands, and they are both working to do His will. I believe it is sheer arrogance to deny Satan's existence.
I think those worms (humans) who don't believe in birds (angels/spirits) will be the first to get caught in their beaks.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood. I believe those who don't believe in Satan don't actually believe this.
So, this is my line of thinking. Sadly, you don't get it if you say that Satan will not love Jesus Christ the most. If he exists, then of course he is the root of sin, and being forgiven after being sent into the lake of fire and purified, then being the one who was forgiven the most, he will love his Master the most. Even the blind Pharisee, Simon, could understand this reasoning of Jesus Christ.
Don't think that I'm saying Satan loves Jesus Christ right now. You're not actually reading what I'm saying if that's what you think. I'm talking about the end, when God is all in all. We can't love God without Him first loving us. If Satan is shown the most love by being forgiven the most, then of course he will love back the most. Do we actually believe Jesus Christ?
Therefore if all will be reconciled, Satan will love God the most.
I am not sure eternal things quantify like that,Jason, but I do believe Satan exists, and I do believe He will be forgiven. Jesus said to the mother of James and John, when she asked if her sons could sit at His right and left in the kingdom, that it was" not His to give". Some things are way above our pay grade and imo we need not speculate beyond the pale of scripture.
Where it is clear we can be clear, where it is not we "see through a glass darkly and ought to be in a mode of "Come, let us reason together" when we discuss. I believe the existence of Satan is clear, but the exact position he will be in in the age of ages is not. In any case, we should present our opinions from the scriptures and not speak in judgmental terms of those who disagree with us.
Quote from: Jason on March 10, 2018, 11:44:22 PM
We all know Jesus Christ is Father Yahweh's right hand. Who is His left hand? I believe that there has to be another power that is just about equal to Jesus Christ, which would be Satan the devil. Well... it's fairly obvious to me. I believe that people who say Satan doesn't exist are giving way too much credit to flesh (that they are worshipping the creation rather than the Creator), and that they are not submitting themselves under God's mighty right hand, Jesus Christ. It just doesn't make sense to me to say that there are goats on the left hand and the righteous on the right hand, and yet saying that there is no ruler over the goats on the left hand. Obviously God controls both of his hands, and they are both working to do His will. I believe it is sheer arrogance to deny Satan's existence.
I think those worms (humans) who don't believe in birds (angels/spirits) will be the first to get caught in their beaks.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood. I believe those who don't believe in Satan don't actually believe this.
So, this is my line of thinking. Sadly, you don't get it if you say that Satan will not love Jesus Christ the most. If he exists, then of course he is the root of sin, and being forgiven after being sent into the lake of fire and purified, then being the one who was forgiven the most, he will love his Master the most. Even the blind Pharisee, Simon, could understand this reasoning of Jesus Christ.
Don't think that I'm saying Satan loves Jesus Christ right now. You're not actually reading what I'm saying if that's what you think. I'm talking about the end, when God is all in all. We can't love God without Him first loving us. If Satan is shown the most love by being forgiven the most, then of course he will love back the most. Do we actually believe Jesus Christ?
Therefore if all will be reconciled, Satan will love God the most.
Now you're getting worryingly close to making the suggestion that made me uncomfortable on Saturday. In the case of the parable of the sheep and the goats the king is the same king in both parts of the story who is the Son not the Father, there's nothing to suggest there needs to be additional agencies at each of his hands.
As EW points out James and John's mother tries to get Jesus to put her sons at His left and right hands it suggest she didn't think what was at the right side had to be in any way at odds or opposed to what is at the left.
I always felt Jesus was being poetic and if I felt there was a need for another agency to be at God's left hand I'd put the Holy Spirit there before I gave the place to Satan.
And when forgiven Satan may, in principle, love God most of all those who have been forgiven (although we'd meant to love God entirely so...) but Jesus loves God the most and He has shown it by His perfect obedience and that will never change.
IMO ... just because something is not believed as truth does not automatically make it a lie, truth is truth whether it is believed or not ....
and IMO to believe what another says is a lie, and then speaks what they believe, do we not become an accuser of the brethren. a son of our father "thee accuser"?
I do my best not to accuse anyone of anything, I state what I believe and only that, if what others believe differs from what I believe, I have to put to death the accuser in me, not giving him power to accuse anyone through my tongue and I do that by merely stating why I believe what I do.
I will not and I refuse to condemn anyone to death in my own heart just because they do not believe what I believe, I will silence myself before I become an accuser.
my :2c:
It is possible, even when we disagree heartily on things, to discuss them. The key is that according to the rules of the forum, we ought to discuss them in a collegial (friendly and intelligible) manner, and the discussion must be hinged within the scriptures.
Speculations can be voiced, but not prophecied.....discussed but not declared, etc- because we arent here to resolve all the mysteries about which Christians have divided for thousands of years, altho resolving those mysteries is a worthy pursuit per each individual on the journey of truth.
Establishing the fact that the salvation of all is a foundation doctrine of Jesus Christ and His apostles is the real function of the board, so while (I think) we allow pretty loose reigns in discussing peripheral doctrine, there will never be room for debating, declaring and prophecying concerning them- not because that is a bad thing to do in general- but because it runs contrary to the core purpose of the forum, which is to provide a scripturally sound environment where people can learn about the salvation of all without being affronted concerning other dubious(to you or me)things they embrace. People will not accept our message if we try to reorient their beliefs on everything in one bite from varying perspectives held by the more active people on the board.
So it is never personal, nor is it generally judgmental(saying whether you are "right" or "wrong")- it is about maintaining an atmosphere conducive to our purpose- a purpose I think most of us generally share and understand.
That doesnt mean that when it comes to foundations, moderators will not say, at times, "This runs seriously contrary to our understanding of scripture and we will not allow you to teach it here". We will do that on occasion- it doesnt make us right but it does keep the parameters of the site in view- to teach the salvation of all in a concrete, rather than oblique, way....because that is a task that can be accomplished reasonably without departing from the pure milk of the Word.
I am posting this around on a few threads today to avoid longer conversations and to make sure it gets seen. Peace to all. :o)
I definitely didn't mean Satan will love God more than Jesus Christ, I meant more than the rest of us, due to the fact that if he is forgiven more, he will have more reason to praise and love God. In the portion of scripture where Jesus was saying this saying of His, He obviously is the Master being referred to. For the starting part of my last post, I suppose that it would make sense to clarify it a bit more. Jesus Christ stands in the place of God in the case of the goats and sheep, and is the Ruler of the sheep, so in this case it would make sense to say He is both the Highest (being that God resides in Him), and also the right hand. If that is the case, then it would make more sense (than it does before explaining this) to say that He can also have a ruler (aside from Himself) over the goats on the left hand, which would be Satan. Yes, He is Lord over Satan too, I'm sure we all agree to that.
Now, nowhere in scripture does it actually say Satan is on the left hand of God, but it's an assumption I'm willing to make, due to the fact that the goats go on the left hand (of Jesus Christ).
Sorry if my beliefs offended you guys, obviously none of us know the entirety of the truth, but I won't change my belief that Satan is a real entity (rather than just our "carnal minds").
I suppose that these scriptures might aid my point (that Satan is a real, separate entity from humans), but I can convince nobody of anything apart from Yahwah and His Son, Yahwasua. "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve." Luke 22:3 "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;" John 13:2 "And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." John 13:27
Indeed, I don't think I've ever suggested that Jason is lying in stating his belief in the existence of a physical being called variously Satan, the Devil and Beelzebub in the Bible and Satanael, Diavolo, Mephistopheles and others in more popular and historic culture. But Jesus puts a huge amount of weight behind the importance of disseminating the Truth and it is a lesson I try to follow though, being human, am never entirely successful in doing so and can perceive three other ways people can disseminate falsehoods without realising they are doing it:
Ignorance - particularly popular ignorance like the historical belief that the world was flat.
Denial - not wishing to believe otherwise for your own purposes, like the current belief that the world is flat.
Haste - making claims with actually thinking about the implications and consequences of what you are saying (there's probably are better word for this flaw)
As humans we are susceptible to all three failings and they contribute to keeping us in the dark. The latter is particularly prevalent in discussions like this but the second is rather dangerous too. The nature of the discussion reduces the danger of the former as, if it has significant bearing, someone is likely to make you aware of that which you are ignorant of sooner rather than later.
Jason, I believe you when you say that you neither meant to say that Satan loves God right now or that he will eventually love God more than Jesus, but the absence of clarification gave this impression. It's one of the errors we make from time to time I've no I've made it before although I try not to.
Nevertheless the parable of the sheep and the God's, I imagine, refers to historical shepherding practices that I would presume the disciples, who, I remind you, are the only audience to this teaching, would recognise. There's no real need to invoke a different shepherd for the sheep then the goats, the same shepherd has charge over both, that's the point. Although, it may be slightly more complicated than that but that's not a discussion for this post.
Secondly, while I understand your reference to the teaching about love being proportionate to forgiveness I feel there is a flaw in your reasoning. While I agree that the master in the parable represents Jesus (God) Jesus also told the parable of the unforgiving debtor in which the master must certainly represent Jesus (God). But when forgiven the servant certainly does not behave like he loves God the most on account of the huge amount of forgiveness displayed in that parable, he seems to behave like he immensely resents it. Otherwise he would have behaved as he should have behaved and the parable wouldn't unfold as it does.
So while we can say those forgiven the most should love God the most, it appears that it doesn't necessarily follow that they will.
Hi Jason :hiya: I don't think different views is a problem at all.. the key, I think is to agree to not agree.. we can't agree on everything.. not yet.. I think thee's things we all wish others would hear us more clearly about - some being likely right and some others likely not so right.. If self gets in there, then we have to defend our view no matter what.. rather than learn and maybe sand off some rough edges in our belief about it.. I think satan is a literal being.. Michael and Gabriel literal faithful angels.. and the Prince of Persia which stood in Gabriel's way (it was Gabriel, wasn't it? that's bad memory as I just read it the other day..) - Prince of Persia blocking Gabriel I figure is a literal spirit.. "Take as literal what can be taken as literal" ..and look for the literal meaning in the not literal :laughing7: I don't think the forum cares if we have different views.. not at all.. :Peace2: :girlheart: Welcome to the forum Jason! It's nice having you here! [And everyone of course!] And I surely agree we all have enough suspicion, accusing/slandering kind of spirit/attitude.. we don't need demons to help it along.. (tho i think they do, usually, though not always, on a global & collective scale however.)
I would just like to say, that it's quite a big presumption to assume that Satan and his angels will be saved (and I'm sorry for doing so, it was presumptuous of me - though I first read it in "God's Plan For All" - a book about UR). I am doubtful of it now. The reason for this is that all of the blood of every righteous person who has and/or will be slain on earth is going to be shed because of these evil beings. Yahwasua Himself said it. He also said that they (scribes/Pharisees/Jews) are the children of Satan. He mentioned Abel and Zacharias, and then proceeded to say that the blood of every righteous person ever killed would be on their hands - that they were going to fill up the measure of their fathers (Pharisees/Sadducees/Jews/Brood of vipers/Generation of serpents). Essentially the whole gist of it is that this "generation" - which basically includes them, their ancestors, and their descendants - are the children of Satan. It may be that they are actually literal devils inhabiting flesh and blood bodies. I have to say I'm inclined to believe so now. Yahwasua said that Judas (for example) IS a devil - not that he was being possessed by one. "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" John 6:70 - yes, Satan possessed him as well, but the meaning that I get from this is that he actually was a devil inhabiting a flesh and blood body.
All things are possible for Yahwah, so it's possible that Satan and his devils will be saved (after paying for their crimes) but at the same time, are there not some vessels fitted for destruction?
We all know that it's Yahwah's will to save all men (humans), but what about devils? I'm not quite so sure anymore.
I think it's a lot easier to argue the case for all men (humans) being saved (the world) than it is to argue for the entire creation/universe.
Here's the thing; these scribes/Pharisees knew Yahwasua is the Son of the highest God - Yahwah, yet they called Him a devil. They knew He was going around doing miracles, healing, etc. This race/generation of murderers of everyone who will ever be killed were calling the Holy Spirit [the Spirit of Yahwah, the self-existent One, the Father of Yahwasua and His brothers/sisters the Eloheem who together all received of Yahwah's Holy Spirit (the fullness residing in Yahwasua)] the spirit of Beelzebub/Satan. From what I can see, this particular race or generation is responsible for "that great city Babylon - and in her was found the blood of all that were slain upon the earth" - literally every murder that ever happens.
Yes, Yahwah is not a respecter of persons, and it may be that He will save even Satan and his devils, but since we don't know if it's Yahwah's will to save them it takes quite a leap of faith. I guess we don't know for sure if it's His will to save them and so I definitely don't want to presume such a thing.
The matter of the evil angels' salvation seems to be a stumbling-block for me believing in universal salvation. I have no doubt about the Power of Yahwah, just doubt about whether it's His will to save them. It's quite an odd thing to think about what they will have to suffer if they are really to be heirs of salvation (in addition to all humanity). "We are perfected through suffering." Is the lake of fire a mirror of pain that reflects their own acts back upon them? Will they feel the exact same pain as they inflicted? We know that you reap what you sow - and this is a Galatians epistle teaching (from Paul - the biggest biblical proponent of universal salvation), so that would seem logical. I guess my point is basically this, since Yahwah is not a respecter of persons, then those who do evil will have their evil repaid to them and that's the fact of the matter. Then, if the evil angels were to be allowed into the Kingdom of heaven, wouldn't they have to also do "the Work of God" - which is believing on the name of his Son Yahwasua and loving one another. Will they do this in the lake of fire? I suppose all of this amounts to, "why not just believe all will be saved and stop asking questions?" and perhaps this is the whole point of all of this dialogue FOR PAUL SAID, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus (Yahwasua) Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2
Anyway, sorry for all presumptions on my part. "Let all men be liars, and God be true."? :footmouth: (oddly enough we have no autographs (as far as I know - have I actually seen them?)), so for all we know, anything and everything we know could be wrong) - and herein does Paul's proclamation that LOVE is what matters most become most important (though that's how it should always be), for everything else will fade away
Jason said:
"so for all we know, anything and everything we know could be wrong) - and herein does Paul's proclamation that LOVE is what matters most become most important (though that's how it should always be), for everything else will fade away"
This is often my thought. I try to put my trust and faith in God and try to love, and the rest is just noise sometimes. Try is the key word, I feel this life is such a struggle sometimes.
One passage that gives hope of the salvation of all created beings is Romans:
consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
The inclusivity of "the creation" is what stands out to me.
Like I mentioned in some other posts, I don't feel like I know (or any of us truly that know) the answers to all of these mysteries, such as the nature of evil/Satan/demons/angels, among other theological questions. Though Christians are supposed to be "one body" there are something like 33,000 Christian denominations, I'm sure divided over all these details that, as some like to say, are us trying to see "through the glass darkly."
One thing that I feel at peace with since believing in UR is that we don't have to be "right" to be "saved" and avoid "hell."
Just my :2c:
Amen, GiL :dsunny: :cloud9:
Quote from: Jason on March 14, 2018, 03:11:56 AM
some vessels fitted for destruction
..but not 'for ever' (imo)
Quote
that great city Babylon - and in her was found the blood of all that were slain upon the earth" - literally every murder that ever happens
"mystery babble" -all untruth? responsible for all death..
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Is the lake of fire a mirror of pain that reflects their own acts back upon them? Will they feel the exact same pain as they inflicted? We know that you reap what you sow -
Imagine the horror to wake up fro the grave, n God's Presence, and realize you oppressed or killed thousands.. or raped hundreds.. or whatever it is the world's worst evildoers do (if angle and mankind's choices are being let to run their course to prove good from evil.. doesn't that imply letting even the greatest evils to be done? otherwise what would be "proven"? What good from evil demonstrated?
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and herein does Paul's proclamation that LOVE is what matters most become most important (though that's how it should always be), for everything else will fade away
Amen! you said it! :iagree: totally..
I believe these verses are verses which lead some of us to believe even satan&co will ultimately be saved -
Ephesians 1:10
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Colossians 1:20
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And also the idea that satan&co was allowed, by God, to become as evil doing as they have.. for His purposes - I believe to speed things along.. That Babel Tower was too soon for apocalypse (failure/ruin) but if only humans like sheep wandering.. cold take a LOT longer to reach the truth proving culmination.
I really loved reading everyone's replies ..
Deeply felt and substantial thoughts .
Something that helped me understand , is knowledge is what causes division , worldly wisdom .. the tree of knowledge of good and evil and its temptation to keep eating of it .. death is found in it .
Love never does cause divisions because it heals all wrong and does not keep a record of it .[ forgiving is forgetting all the former things behind us and moving forward] Let it be .
Love is the unity and universal language . The wisdom from above Only God can solve or make it known .
My greatest comfort is knowing God changes everything , but He never does . Not all sleep but will be changed ..
I have never shared this with anyone , but if it is any comfort to anyone else and could give them peace within also
He said this world is not His , and consider it is only by faith in Him , not of ourselves and worldly wisdom , where the carnal [beastly ] mind operates and decides everything under the power of slavery to sinful desires and the love of money/mammon is the ROOT of all evil .greed gives rise to selfish or wicked actions and ambitions . there is no amount of mammon or power to fill that void ,it is a bottomless pit ...
Some use knowledge to take advantage of the poor in spirit
God made leviathan without fear ,, Even anyone who has even read the Word of GOD , knows the beginning of real wisdom is the fear of the Lord .. even the devils know and trembles at His Word .
But God made this one without fear , with fear of the Lord comes , a place in our hearts /minds with respect and honor
Jesus did this perfectly , our glorious example , making and showing us a way to Truth in the Life of Christ , no longer living as a beast but as a son of God ,,,
This place is the grave [ many bibles call hell / judgement ]
David helped me to see it , I was like a beast before you ... mark of the beast , it is the number of a man , and there will be no buying or trading or selling the wisdom of the world that is earthly , sensual and devilish ,, that twist the TRUTH into lies
The power in the serpents lie was twisted by one WORD '' NOT '' God did not say , you shall not surly die
...16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
Adams DAY was 930 years and experienced death every day from the point he ate of this tree on ward . What did he gain but more worldly wisdom as a king of the earth and having dominion over all God gave him , minus the garden now ..
That the tree of Life was in and guarded by the Flaming sword /JESUS CHRIST /Truth that no man could enter without being put to death by his own works of his own hands .
Psalms 72
21When my heart was embittered And I was pierced within,
22Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You. 23Nevertheless I am continually with You; You have taken hold of my right hand....
Job 18:3
"Why are we regarded as beasts, As stupid in your eyes?
Psalm 49:10
For he sees that even wise men die; The stupid and the senseless alike perish And leave their wealth to others.
Psalm 49:20
Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, Is like the beasts that perish.
Psalm 92:6
A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this:
Proverbs 30:2
Surely I am more stupid than any man, And I do not have the understanding of a man.
Ecclesiastes 3:18
I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."
So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before you.
Psalm 69:5 O God, you know my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from you.
Psalm 92:6 A brutish man knows not; neither does a fool understand this.
Proverbs 30:2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.
Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in my heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that ...
Psalm 32:9 Be you not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: ...
Isaiah 1:3 The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib: but Israel ...
Mankind / Adam buys and dells the truth all the time to one another for greedy gain , What they consider important and worldly ,
Those whom love the Lord are not to be of the world anyl onger in it but not of it .. a friend of the world is not a friend of GOD
James 4 ;4 Warning against Pride
...3And when you do ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may squander it on your pleasures. 4You adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God?
Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God. 5Or do you think the Scripture says without reason that the Spirit He caused to dwell in us yearns with envy?...
Our divisions come from being in both , and the two edged Flaming Sword divides the soul and the Spirit one hand in the world and the other hand in God
What would a man exchange for his soul / life ? ,
what good does it do to gain the whole world and loose his soul /life being a slave to death ?
[ Hebrews 4 12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
The WORD judges us all by the standard
[a level of quality or attainment] of TRUTH , What is truth to us ?
We are taught of God that love is the standard that the whole world is measured from and by and though and for .. GOD IS LOVE ..
We have become desensitized by all this evil and death down here , the news media has nothing but bad news to report, slander and every evil thing you can imagine , Knowledge of good and evil has increased we have become like dead people walking , when we love it is always taken advantage of .. Give someone an inch of mercy and love and they want to take a mile from you .. or use you up like a stomping ground , Jesus called all those whom had come before Him were robber and thieves
John 10Jesus the Good Shepherd and whom ever Hear His Voice will LIVE ... HE IS THE WAY TO THE TREE OF LIFE ... no one can enter except though Him only ... that Truth / Sword ..and just like sheep be prepared to die in the Lord ..
...7So He said to them again, "Truly, truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture....
This is why faith in God is such a very precious thing and worth more than any gold the world offers us ,
When He makes all things new everything will be changed , evil can never ever enter our minds again , as it has never entered His presence and lived .
death is the last enemy and will not exist when LIFE consumes it all ...
I was going to stay quiet lol :laughing7: says a fool is known by a multitude of words and the wise when silent
Ecclesiastes 10:14
Yet the fool multiplies words. No man knows what will happen, and who can tell him what will come after him?
But I also recall Paul saying , He was a fool for Christ sake and become a fool and no longer seeking the wisdom of the world any longer , so am I than
1 Cor 3 Worldly Wisdom
...17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him;
for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
18 Let no one deceive himself.
If any of you thinks he is wise in this age,
he should become a fool,
so that he may become wise.
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight.
As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness." [ not the devil catching us but it is God whom catches us in our own ways of doing things ] 20And again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."
21Therefore stop boasting in men. All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephasc or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.
Love is the purest motive that the Holy Spirit would guide our hearts and minds towards ,
the love of God though the Lord Jesus Christ ,,His Voice we follow after , God has made a way of escape though His one of a kind and only Son , and many sons will come out of His body , hid in Christ till they be revealed ... and known as they are known of God our True Heavenly Father .
We love God because He loved us first and gave Himself for us while we were yet sinners Christ died for us , and bought us back from the dead with His own blood , so we can now LIVE for God though Jesus Christ strengthening us daily , the inner man of the heart for God all truth is in Him ..
His Word / His Son ,will not return to Him empty .. but accomplish what it is sent out to do and that is save , salvation is of God
The Bible teaches us in I Corinthians 15:57: "Thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." To be saved, admit to God that you are a sinner. in error . we are really lost without His guiding us to Life .. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation, but it is only by God's grace—His undeserved mercy—that we can be saved.
I have heard ,'' Let go and let God '', many times now , it is a simple and true saying , as we rest in Hope staying alive though Him and ready to die those things that hinder us all . wait on the Lord to reveal Himself / Life to us .
Amen Rose.. I think it's the difference between being in the Spirit or carnal.. Carnal must defend its view, whereas in the Spirit can seek truth with others.. paring things down to the truth, together..
In forums, I've figured out.. or so it seems to me, carnal believers are like a closed door. Even the outward or superficial? attitude of love, togetherness, acceptance and welcome, like can be seen in many churches, is missing. It's simply 'my view versus your view' rather than simply saying what one's view is and listening to what another's view is.. and letting it leaven perhaps.. As a seeking truth of the topic together.
I think this is what Jesus said in Mt 24 about His return.. will He find faith? His servants "providing meat for the household in due season" [feed my sheep.. he broke the bread and gave to his disciples which gave to the people..] or will He find them beating up on other members of the household? Man! Do we ever see this occurring in Christian discussion forums! Oy.
I think some folks wander in here to peaceful, cooperative tentmaker forum, kind of battle worn and scarred.. defensive.. And for a while it may be with that attitude of 'my view versus your view'.
The 'closed door' feeling I get in forums when it's obvious someone is only talking and not listening, when I can tell they responded to my response, but didn't really read it.. they did not hear it.. It's totally 'my view versus your view' - no room for discourse.. closed door.. All we can do is say a prayer and shake the dust.. :friendstu:
sometimes we have to get out of God's way.Will God reap what He sowed? God planted good seed..in the field of this earth[man] an enemy sowed tares. God will up root
what He did not plant..and the enemy that is uprooted accuse God of reaping where He did not sow!but the enemy of God has reaped what he sowed!the enemy's one talent
has always been as the accusor/condemer of the works of God's hands! God gives this talent of accusation/condemnation to the one who has ten[Jesus]andHe says...
'the Prince of this world is judged that his works are wicked" :2c:
Quote from: Jason on March 14, 2018, 03:11:56 AM
I would just like to say, that it's quite a big presumption to assume that Satan and his angels will be saved (and I'm sorry for doing so, it was presumptuous of me - though I first read it in "God's Plan For All" - a book about UR). I am doubtful of it now. The reason for this is that all of the blood of every righteous person who has and/or will be slain on earth is going to be shed because of these evil beings. Yahwasua Himself said it. He also said that they (scribes/Pharisees/Jews) are the children of Satan. He mentioned Abel and Zacharias, and then proceeded to say that the blood of every righteous person ever killed would be on their hands - that they were going to fill up the measure of their fathers (Pharisees/Sadducees/Jews/Brood of vipers/Generation of serpents). Essentially the whole gist of it is that this "generation" - which basically includes them, their ancestors, and their descendants - are the children of Satan. It may be that they are actually literal devils inhabiting flesh and blood bodies. I have to say I'm inclined to believe so now. Yahwasua said that Judas (for example) IS a devil - not that he was being possessed by one. "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" John 6:70 - yes, Satan possessed him as well, but the meaning that I get from this is that he actually was a devil inhabiting a flesh and blood body.
All things are possible for Yahwah, so it's possible that Satan and his devils will be saved (after paying for their crimes) but at the same time, are there not some vessels fitted for destruction?
We all know that it's Yahwah's will to save all men (humans), but what about devils? I'm not quite so sure anymore.
I think it's a lot easier to argue the case for all men (humans) being saved (the world) than it is to argue for the entire creation/universe.
Here's the thing; these scribes/Pharisees knew Yahwasua is the Son of the highest God - Yahwah, yet they called Him a devil. They knew He was going around doing miracles, healing, etc. This race/generation of murderers of everyone who will ever be killed were calling the Holy Spirit [the Spirit of Yahwah, the self-existent One, the Father of Yahwasua and His brothers/sisters the Eloheem who together all received of Yahwah's Holy Spirit (the fullness residing in Yahwasua)] the spirit of Beelzebub/Satan. From what I can see, this particular race or generation is responsible for "that great city Babylon - and in her was found the blood of all that were slain upon the earth" - literally every murder that ever happens.
Yes, Yahwah is not a respecter of persons, and it may be that He will save even Satan and his devils, but since we don't know if it's Yahwah's will to save them it takes quite a leap of faith. I guess we don't know for sure if it's His will to save them and so I definitely don't want to presume such a thing.
The matter of the evil angels' salvation seems to be a stumbling-block for me believing in universal salvation. I have no doubt about the Power of Yahwah, just doubt about whether it's His will to save them. It's quite an odd thing to think about what they will have to suffer if they are really to be heirs of salvation (in addition to all humanity). "We are perfected through suffering." Is the lake of fire a mirror of pain that reflects their own acts back upon them? Will they feel the exact same pain as they inflicted? We know that you reap what you sow - and this is a Galatians epistle teaching (from Paul - the biggest biblical proponent of universal salvation), so that would seem logical. I guess my point is basically this, since Yahwah is not a respecter of persons, then those who do evil will have their evil repaid to them and that's the fact of the matter. Then, if the evil angels were to be allowed into the Kingdom of heaven, wouldn't they have to also do "the Work of God" - which is believing on the name of his Son Yahwasua and loving one another. Will they do this in the lake of fire? I suppose all of this amounts to, "why not just believe all will be saved and stop asking questions?" and perhaps this is the whole point of all of this dialogue FOR PAUL SAID, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus (Yahwasua) Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2
Anyway, sorry for all presumptions on my part. "Let all men be liars, and God be true."? :footmouth: (oddly enough we have no autographs (as far as I know - have I actually seen them?)), so for all we know, anything and everything we know could be wrong) - and herein does Paul's proclamation that LOVE is what matters most become most important (though that's how it should always be), for everything else will fade away
What? [mod edit]
You seem to have moved from arguing a position I disagree with but can sympathize with, it being your understanding of an historical teaching of the church with a position that has so far as i know no one has ever held before.
Up to this point I'd have acknowledged that I probably held the minority and more heretical position but now you seem to have amended your view on the salvation of the fallen angels and expressed a view point that only you and, I must imagine, those that think like you hold.
You actually suggest you believe that several human beings are devils disguised as human beings. Now Elvis said that about someone once but I'm fairly sure he was not being literal.
What you are suggesting is an idea that, so far as I know, no church has ever taught and seems to be a convenient way of identify characters in the Bible who won't be saved, even while we claim that all will be saved because, despite appearances, they are not humans and so don't fall into the category of those who will be saved. At which point youcan say that of anyone you don't like and don't want to forgive to claim why they won't be saved and so you don't have to which undermines a great deal of the benefits of UR.
Jesus didn't teach this, yes He may have said, allegorically, that Judas was a devil but He also said he chose Judas.
On top of this Jesus went around, according to you, excising demons, which you believe in, all the while having a chief agent of Satan in his own number. Jesus told people not to concern themselves with the mote in their neighbour's eye before they had got rid of the beam in their own eye. So, on your theory, maybe Jesus should be getting rid of the devil in His own number before dealing with them elsewhere.
According to the Bible, Jesus and His disciples all performed exorcisms, yet you say one of them was an actual devil. Wouldn't that seem to give credence to the suggestion of the Pharisees that Jesus is excising demons by the power of Satan? Maybe Judas is doing it behind His back? No, of course, he isn't.
Think about what you are saying!
Of course, while you agonize over whether Satan and the demons will be saved or not I don't have that concern. In your picture, they are real characters who need to be saved at least in principle but the question is can they have it? I my picture the answer is 'no' because they are not characters and not only do they not need saving be that must not be saved because they are symbolic agencies that represent everything we need saving from.
Yes
Sistas .... Only when we can see it that way ,,,God did sow everything in death , so a new Life can and does come and spring forth out of it , for God so loved the world That HE GAVE everything .
we are just blessed and on the receiving end His blessings , no doubt about it , and Gods garden of Life will not ever fail Him .
I will never claim to know everything , that is just being arrogant , seems when we are so sure of anything it crumbles before our very eyes , GOD IS TRUE .... and faithful as promised ..
Our waiting on Him in humility shows great promise , Love never fails and when we Do love God first and seek HIS KINGDOM , everything does seem to fall into place and it is a place of peace even with our enemies
It seems arrogance is in spiritual youth ... [carnal yet in many ways ] and the need for being forgiven for Gods name sake applies , scripture testifies of it , it is good to believe it , it is the young men that have overcome the evil one ..
and the fathers know it from the beginning , turning the hearts of the fathers back to the children , these are the prayers answered , the prayers of a righteous man avails much good to all ... and what pleases God .
I do believe spiritual maturity comes with being seasoned and discerning spiritual things in high places and it is the works of GOD doing it , we can never take any credit , but give the rightful credit where it is due .
In our LORD JESUS CHRIST being both the LORD OF the dead and the living His WORD is the TRUTH
and nothing can ever prevail against that , but will crumble and come to a complete end of itself .
Says death is the last enemy to overcome in the world , not satan , but DEATH itself , when the deception is removed the truth frees us all.
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 20:14-15 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21 2But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.
24By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
25Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.
26And into the city will be brought the glory and honor of the nations.
27But nothing unclean will ever enter it,
nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I cannot help but think of Jesus telling the disciples , students of the Word , when they were experiencing the power of the HOLY SPIRIT working in them to have power over all the enemy [death] , they were thrilled , but Jesus told them a TRUTH , be rejoicing that their names were written in the Lambs book of life ! ..
To me and my :2c: this is the ultimate goal to be found in Him ... His Spirit of truth making everything NEW & glorious , we could never be anything but obedient , Keeping His WORD ALIVE in hope loving everyone as God does ..
and the royal law of How we can honor God though the Lord Jesus Christ /Living Word .
,,, James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...7Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called?
8If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors....
Leviticus 19:18
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
Matthew 7:12
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.
Romans 13:8
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.
Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.
James 2:19
You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder!
James 4:11
Brothers, do not slander one another.
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the Law and judges it.
And if you judge the Law, you are not a practitioner of the Law, but a judge of it.
I do believe it will be when we are all considered equal as a family of GOD and everyone is important to God , He makes that known in His Word in many ways and when respect is given and we esteem everyone with regard to boundaries , treat them as you like to be treated things will change .
But the testing and trials of faith will not end till we get it right and than move on to other things .
I am just now after all this time learning this !!! Being overcome by the world and not overcoming the world fully yet :sigh:
Every time I think it is going well , than bam , its not , evil is present and a little evil destroys much good !! [leaven ]
evil has to be exposed to the Light in order for it to be done away with in Christ , hardened hearts must be broken in order to be made new .
Humbled is a contrite ,a'' broken heart" before the Lord Whom will never despise it .
The Glory of the New Covenant
...13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. 15And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts....
Acts 13:15
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue leaders sent word to them: "Brothers, if you have a word of encouragement for the people, please speak."
Acts 15:21
For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
2 Corinthians 3:6
And He has qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:15
And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Ephesians 4:18
They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.
I do believe we are seeking to have the heart of Flesh in Jesus Christ to keep us Alive and that is necessary knowledge to seek after
Without the pliable love of God entering His rest is impossible with out Him changing us , we bow the knee and confess our need for His life changing love to overcome the world because the saints were overcome by the world ...
Rev 13 The Beast from the Sea
...6And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.
7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain....
It is all GODS as it is written !!!! and named them all for HIS GLORY !!!
Psalm 89:11
The heavens are Yours, the earth also is Yours; The world and all it contains, You have founded them .
pSALMS 147It is Good to Sing Praises to Our God
...3He heals the brokenhearted And binds up their wounds. 4He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them. 5Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite....
Genesis 15:5
And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high And see who has created these stars, The One who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name; Because of the greatness of His might and the strength of His power, Not one of them is missing.
All things are possible with God we got to keep that hope alive .. :HeartThrob:
Jason..the evil spirits on the Pharisee's knew who Jesus was...not the men[pharisee's/sadducee's]for if they had known He was the Lord of glory..they would not have crucified
him.there are two nations down here...God's spirit seed sons in flesh[Israel]..and an invisible evil spirit seed[tares]nation. that is why we do not judge by the
appearance of the eyes. satan and evil spirits are 'tools"..they provide the wicked negative contrast' portion[TOKOGAE]in this temporal exercize with evil.
the enmity between the serpent seed and the woman's. :2c:
it was for the reason the Pharisee's were blinded[decieved]by satan that Jesus said they were 'blind'guides!He prayed for them who were used of satan to crucify Him as
they knew not what they did. Because they insisted they could see He let them remain in their decieved state. :2c:
Judas had a 'devil"liar..first measure of corruption,,,thief[helped himself to the moneybag/begrudged 'waste 'of perfume poured out on Christ=2nd measure of corruption
leading unto betrayl of Christ for silver..as satan entered into him with the sop..becoming a murderer....portraying fully the corrupt image/likeness/personality of satan.3rd.
Judas repented for his part in it..but it was really the wicked work of the prince of this world.the liar/thief/man-killer.satanmeantitforevil..but Godfor thegood. :2c:
:2c: Judas..portraying satan who did not keep his position in heaven..no-one lost but the son of perdition...that the scriptures may be fulfilled..also as'himwho would
have been better off to have not been born[his works/arm better to be cut off,his eye better to be plucked out],it is this 'little'member of the whole that it is better to be cut
off...that the whole body[all men raised upinChrist] not perish.Better that the adversaries seed never bore in our flesh.[woe to the earth the devil has come down toyou]
he lost his position in heaven..and on this earth...twice dead. satan bruised our heel..but Christ crushed his head.
Just as inthe daysof Noah..sons of God saw daughters of men..marrying and giving in marriage. demonic 'men of sin' have infiltrated churches and brought forth doctrines of
devils..which make for many spots and wrinkles in the churches.foolish virgin[silly women] class that miss out on the wedding supper[true sayingsof God] on this side.
never-the-less....all men will be delivered from all the places they have been scattered..each in his order...they will pass under the rod and Hewill bring them into the bonds
of the covenant of LIFE.write the royal law of love in their hearts and minds..wipe away all tears.
...the High Priest prophesied when the giving of Christ up to the cross drew nigh...that it was better for one to perish that the nation may live. Christ bore thosesins
as the Lord's lot/goat of Atonement...and in His final act of atonement He will place those confessed sins on the head of Azazel's scapegoat.......
Judas goats lead sheep/men to slaughter. :2c:
Quote from: rosered on March 14, 2018, 08:23:28 PM
,,, James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...7Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called?
8If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors....
Yes, but is it OK to favour God?
Quote from: sheila on March 14, 2018, 08:55:51 PM
Jason..the evil spirits on the Pharisee's knew who Jesus was...not the men[pharisee's/sadducee's]for if they had known He was the Lord of glory..they would not have crucified
him.there are two nations down here...God's spirit seed sons in flesh[Israel]..and an invisible evil spirit seed[tares]nation. that is why we do not judge by the
appearance of the eyes. satan and evil spirits are 'tools"..they provide the wicked negative contrast' portion[TOKOGAE]in this temporal exercize with evil.
the enmity between the serpent seed and the woman's. :2c:
Evil spirits on the Pharisees? So are the Pharisees doing what they accuse Jesus of doing? Is the kingdom of Satan divided against its self after all?
If the Pharisees had demons why didn't Jesus just excise them instead of reprimands which were obviously meaningless. The Pharisees opposed Jesus to protect their own interests demons had nothing to do with it.
Quote from: sheila on March 14, 2018, 09:16:06 PM
Judas had a 'devil"liar..first measure of corruption,,,thief[helped himself to the moneybag/begrudged 'waste 'of perfume poured out on Christ=2nd measure of corruption
leading unto betrayl of Christ for silver..as satan entered into him with the sop..becoming a murderer....portraying fully the corrupt image/likeness/personality of satan.3rd.
Judas repented for his part in it..but it was really the wicked work of the prince of this world.the liar/thief/man-killer.satanmeantitforevil..but Godfor thegood. :2c:
Careful, I think it's generally held Judas did not repent (although I may be wrong it may just be the NLT), he experienced remorse but he did not repent. I can't conclusively speak to that but I do believe that suicide is certainly not the best expression of repentance.
I think there is the assumption that Judas by hanging himself.. did deeply regret (imo, anyway:) So likely repented toward God and the Lord Jesus.. The verse, none were lost but the son of perdition, is like all the others.. "But not 'for ever'!" [imo, that is, of course :smile: ]
"He who dwells in love dwells in God" I believe that's God's major measuring stick (imo).. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if when we all see Him, we all realize we didn't understand half so much as we now so strongly think we do.. :HeartThrob: :laughing7:
:girlheart:
Quote from: marie glen on March 15, 2018, 03:47:02 PM
I think there is the assumption that Judas by hanging himself.. did deeply regret (imo, anyway:) So likely repented toward God and the Lord Jesus.. The verse, none were lost but the son of perdition, is like all the others.. "But not 'for ever'!" [imo, that is, of course :smile: ]
"He who dwells in love dwells in God" I believe that's God's major measuring stick (imo).. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if when we all see Him, we all realize we didn't understand half so much as we now so strongly think we do.. :HeartThrob: :laughing7:
:girlheart:
Amen , and amen again , beautifully said!! :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
If Love keeps no record of wrong doing and God is love .
I do not see how anyone can get past that without examining their own hearts motives :laughing7:
I have considered , but do not know , when they shuck hulls [ bodies of death]
Knowing the Spirit goes back to God who gave it in the first place and , all souls /lives are His
Makes me very confident in the LORDS judging the whole world in righteousness
and sis I have finally learned to rest in that hope ...
We have our own personal battles that wage war against the Holy Spirit in many ways .
A good part of that is not understanding the will of God , and that is .
It is Gods will no one perishes , being long suffering and patient towards us all and subjecting His whole creation to vanity to prove the point ,HE IS GOD , and there is no other gods before Him ...
None can or will boast in anything but the Lord when the knowledge is made fully known .
and LOVE is what was , and is and will complete and perfect us all , not any without the other being included ..
Just a hope alive , till we can experience the real deal going down . I can be wrong here , but I want to forgive so I can be forgiven of wrong doing and the Lord will not hold it against us /me / anyone .
Hope makes us not ashamed , because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us to speak so boldly and waiting on the Lord to bring everything into the Light and not to judge anything before He comes to do this , His finished work so perfectly in everyone .
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: Amen, sister.. :gsmile:
QuoteQuote from: rosered on March 14, 2018, 09:23:28 PM
,,, James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...7Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called?
8If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors....
Yes, but is it OK to favour God?
Hi CST ,
I am convinced already many will be bowing the knee in this short life , as we can realize our powerlessness of ourselves against evil . and many are yet to learn at the end of their souls / lives .[last day in the earth ]
Conviction is of the Holy Spirit teaching us something is wrong here , in my heart and there is an empty void , nothing in the world can fill .
I do believe it is when the pride of life has run its course and you cry out to God in pain and loneliness , knowing something is a miss . pleading your need for Him to come and take a hold of it for you , humbled by Him .
I recall the first time I actually felt guilt over wrong doing , and was very young .
I did not know God whatsoever , but I knew God was the reason I felt this way .
I do believe it is when you begin to consider the Lord in your life , and it begins to take shape and form somthing in you that was asleep and not awakened yet . Jesus Christ will rise in your heart and give Light where the darkness dwelt .
I believe it is Christ Spirit joined with the Fathers Spirit in a union to do the works that pleases GOD though the Holy Spirit , that is everyone gathered already and waiting upon us , remember the angles rejoice in heaven over one sinner whom repents and changes his mind from the beast mind to the mind of Christ being obedient to the law and will of God the Holy Father that none should perish . This will draw many of men to Christ /anointing Light by doing the good works though your salvation and glorify God though Jesus Christ .
I also believe you can ignore that conviction and fall into a world of hurt .
With pain and sorrow with suffering and bitterness of the soul [mind of the beast that does not know the will of God ] , the longer you put it off the more death you do experience .
You can harden your heart , just as Pharaoh did and GOD can cut us off from His Love /Holy Spirit witness , being the only power and source of REAL LOVE comes from HIM /HOLY SPIRIT gifts and hardening it even further and never find rest for your souls till it is is broken in defeat .
and just as a beast gnaws its tongue in pain , will also blaspheme Gods good name of which we are called to honor Just as Jesus still does .
So I know without Him we can do nothing of ourselves but die and know the depths of satan and death is our wages for this working in us and though us there is no real peace for the wicked , but troubles come to those whom hold out and allow the evil one to rob God and you of your salvation , being partakers with them have made your life a slave to sin and error .
The dead know nothing as they ought , When Jesus told a disciple when he went to bury his father , He told him , let the dead bury the dead , you come follow me .
He was going to lead him to Life in Christ and win many souls to the LORD by the good works being manifested in the earth and writing them down for our benefit to this very day .. The cross of the Lord Jesus CHRIST brought the new covenant in to effect and death would loose its sting and power over the lives of many , by ONE whom gave His own Life to the world and take away the sins of the whole world though Him , He would gather them up one by one the fragments that remain .
The Word of Life as we hear His voice by faith believe in Him and by the Holy Spirit receive the gifts of God by being faithful in a few things and many more will be added unto you as we continue to obey His voice and grow in truth and grace and
shall live and never die . the kingdom of heaven is yours , seek it first and everything else will be added unto you as an abundant life in our Lord Jesus Christ living in you and though you ,strengthening you , joined with joy and unspeakable and full of glory !!
Luke 9:60
But Jesus told him, "Let the dead bury their own dead. You, however,
go and proclaim the kingdom of God." I would say we should all take heed to our calling brother while heaven is open to receive anyone , of whomsoever will :dsunny:
I believe in
The Big What If(s):
• the scriptures are all corrupted by the seed of Satan (Cain and his descendants)
• the white western people are Israel's descendants (this one could be kind of obvious)
• "you are all (white western descendants of Adam) sons and daughters of the most high" - of Yahwah
• these sons/daughters (Eloheem - including Yahwasua (Jesus)) of Yahwah were with Yahwah before the foundation of the world
• all other races hate white people because white people "are not of this world"
• Cain's (Satan's) descendants control the world (banking systems, government, schools, churches, etc.) - they call themselves Jews (but they are not, they do lie, they're Edomites)
• Yahwasua (Jesus) knew these above facts (well, I suppose you can't call them facts if you don't believe them), and therefore declared that these "Jews" (Edomites) and their ancestors/descendants were going to be responsible for every murder ever to happen
essentially the whole principle here is that Cain and his descendants are devils in flesh and blood bodies, while the Eloheem/Adamic race are sons/daughters of Yahwah in flesh and blood bodies - if this is true, then it makes sense for Yahwasua (Jesus) to call Judas a devil (quite literally) and then it also makes sense for Him to call these "Jews" (Edomites) the children of the devil (Satan)
I'm definitely not saying to avenge yourselves (for those who take the sword must die by the sword, God will repay, vengeance belongs to Him, "you do not know what spirit you are of", etc.). I don't want any of you to be puffed up by this knowledge either (if you will actually believe it). Here it is though. I do have to say I'm inclined to believe it. If these things are true, then it also makes sense that Yahwasua (Jesus) was also Melchizedek and that John the Baptist was Elijah. It also then makes sense that the children are "partakers" of flesh and blood, rather than just literally being flesh and blood.
Oh, btw, how could the disciples of Yahwasua baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost if they don't know their Names?
There is power in the real names of the highest God ("Then said David to the Philistine, You come to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to you IN THE NAME of Yahwah of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day will Yahwah deliver you into my hand; and I will smite you, and take your head from you; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; THAT ALL THE EARTH MAY KNOW THAT THERE IS A GOD IN ISRAEL. And all this assembly shall know that Yahwah saves not with sword and spear: for the battle is Yahwah's, and he will give you into our hands.") and His first-begotten from the dead, and that's why these names have been obscured.
Well... that's that. If you can believe it, then it's through Yahwah's Spirit. Glory be to Him and Our Saviour Yahwasua.
Just a couple of requests for clarification, in case I'm misunderstanding;
do you believe the scriptures (accurately translated, rightly divided, spirit-revealed) are trustworthy (taking into account translation issues)? Or corrupted to the point of not being a final say in faith in practice?
do you believe the white race is a chosen, superior race?
Please very specifically answer these 2 questions.
Thanks.
Quote from: marie glen on March 15, 2018, 03:47:02 PM
I think there is the assumption that Judas by hanging himself.. did deeply regret (imo, anyway:) So likely repented toward God and the Lord Jesus.. The verse, none were lost but the son of perdition, is like all the others.. "But not 'for ever'!" [imo, that is, of course :smile: ]
"He who dwells in love dwells in God" I believe that's God's major measuring stick (imo).. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if when we all see Him, we all realize we didn't understand half so much as we now so strongly think we do.. :HeartThrob: :laughing7:
:girlheart:
As I understand, in the Christian faith, for repentance towards God to mean anything it has to be followed by right action, such as Judas trying to reconcile himself to the other disciples who he had also betrayed. He didn't, he went off and hanged himself which is generally held as a wrong action. Hence why Christian communities often feel they have reason to doubt his repentance. That are the 'curse of God' that is often understood to have befallen his mortal remains after death.
Quote from: Jason on March 16, 2018, 02:45:02 AM
I believe in
The Big What If(s):
• the scriptures are all corrupted by the seed of Satan (Cain and his descendants)
• the white western people are Israel's descendants (this one could be kind of obvious)
• "you are all (white western descendants of Adam) sons and daughters of the most high" - of Yahwah
• these sons/daughters (Eloheem - including Yahwasua (Jesus)) of Yahwah were with Yahwah before the foundation of the world
• all other races hate white people because white people "are not of this world"
• Cain's (Satan's) descendants control the world (banking systems, government, schools, churches, etc.) - they call themselves Jews (but they are not, they do lie, they're Edomites)
• Yahwasua (Jesus) knew these above facts (well, I suppose you can't call them facts if you don't believe them), and therefore declared that these "Jews" (Edomites) and their ancestors/descendants were going to be responsible for every murder ever to happen
essentially the whole principle here is that Cain and his descendants are devils in flesh and blood bodies, while the Eloheem/Adamic race are sons/daughters of Yahwah in flesh and blood bodies - if this is true, then it makes sense for Yahwasua (Jesus) to call Judas a devil (quite literally) and then it also makes sense for Him to call these "Jews" (Edomites) the children of the devil (Satan)
I'm definitely not saying to avenge yourselves (for those who take the sword must die by the sword, God will repay, vengeance belongs to Him, "you do not know what spirit you are of", etc.). I don't want any of you to be puffed up by this knowledge either (if you will actually believe it). Here it is though. I do have to say I'm inclined to believe it. If these things are true, then it also makes sense that Yahwasua (Jesus) was also Melchizedek and that John the Baptist was Elijah. It also then makes sense that the children are "partakers" of flesh and blood, rather than just literally being flesh and blood.
Oh, btw, how could the disciples of Yahwasua baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost if they don't know their Names?
There is power in the real names of the highest God ("Then said David to the Philistine, You come to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to you IN THE NAME of Yahwah of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day will Yahwah deliver you into my hand; and I will smite you, and take your head from you; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; THAT ALL THE EARTH MAY KNOW THAT THERE IS A GOD IN ISRAEL. And all this assembly shall know that Yahwah saves not with sword and spear: for the battle is Yahwah's, and he will give you into our hands.") and His first-begotten from the dead, and that's why these names have been obscured.
Well... that's that. If you can believe it, then it's through Yahwah's Spirit. Glory be to Him and Our Saviour Yahwasua.
OK, first of all, Cain has no seed so they can't have either corrupted the scriptures or be either Jews or Edomites or is control of the world's financial, political and social institutions. They are dead, they were drowned in the great flood. The only survivors being Noah and his family, Noah being descended from Cain's brother Seth. Or do you think you know something about the history of these events that the Bible doesn't tell us?
Secondly, as eluded to in jabcat's second question, several other aspects of that post smack of racism both general (white supremacy) and specific (antisemitism) though I concede you have not specifically nailed your colours to any of these masts because you have posed them as questions. Which I suspect is why jabcat has felt the need ask what you believe and I feel the same way because if the answer is 'yes' on that issue then as far as this discussion is concerned you and me are done because it scarcely seems worth continuing to discuss the literal meaning of the Bible on Devils and Demons when you believe that a vast proportion of he human population, some of which are our friends and maybe even family, are destined to Perdition, because they are in fact Devils in human clothing. Such thinking doesn't sound like any form of UR I can reasonable recognize.
Quote from: Jason on March 16, 2018, 02:45:02 AM
I believe in
The Big What If(s):
• the scriptures are all corrupted by the seed of Satan (Cain and his descendants)
• the white western people are Israel's descendants (this one could be kind of obvious)
:faint: :gsad: :feint:
Jesus said He came only to the 'lost' sheep of Israel.. and where was He? So we can see this is spiritually lost, not physically.
..This particular teaching has been around for a long time.. But you know, by time the Median King Cyrus said "let all Israel, in all my kingdom go home", Assyria where the northern tribes (called 'lost') had been carried off to, was part of that kingdom.
And a few years later a census was taken (I forget what chapter) and all twelve tribes were accounted for.. Anna the prophetess at the temple at Jesus' circumcision was from the tribe of Asher.
And all Cainites would have perished at the flood. As only the family of Noah was on the ark. (Cainites w/ a prominant brow?)
North in the state I live in a few years back a group embraced these "offspring of Cain" type teachings and there ended up being murder and all sorts of things.. (If I remember right.) It's easy to fall for. Always, man has sought to cast blame.. surely we can't all be responsible for the state of life? There's one race responsible, the
human race.
:Peace2:
I actually for a short time wondered if EA could be true.. eternal annihilation.. maybe some people God was not the one who created them, but very soon, by following where such leads.. (very bad fruit) I rejected that.. After that the only thing left was UR. :smile:
Quote
(Edomites) and their ancestors/descendants were going to be responsible for every murder ever to happen
No verse says this. Watching the evening news disproves this.
Quote
essentially the whole principle here is that Cain and his descendants are devils in flesh and blood bodies, while the Eloheem/Adamic race are sons/daughters of Yahwah in flesh and blood bodies
....sounds like white folk are divine and no need to repent at all.. (no logic)
:2c:it's not the Holy spirit putting those kinds of thoughts in people's heads.doctrines of demons causing division/strife. smh
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2018, 12:57:10 AM
:faint: :feint:
What on Earth is the difference between these two emojis meant to be. And for the information of whoever designs these emoticons 'feint' is not meant to be an alternative spelling of 'faint' (swoon) but in fact is a word that either means 'faint' (unclear) and is also used as a word to mean 'deceive' or 'act falsely' or the 'faint' ruled lines paper. I repeat it does not mean faint' (swoon) and I don't know why this site has two virtually identical emojis for exactly the same thing.
Quote from: sheila on March 17, 2018, 04:40:48 AM
:2c:it's not the Holy spirit putting those kinds of thoughts in people's heads.doctrines of demons causing division/strife. smh
Amen sis !!
The Lord warned, When I return will I find faith in the earth ?.
Without faith in Him and His works it is impossible to PLEASE HIM ... without Him we can do nothing of ourselves .
That error of evil the works of darkness , increasing the knowledge of earthly sensual and devilish wisdom of the world and placing doubts in the hearts of the hearers.
Holy Spirit works by convicting us of sin [cleansing us from the filth of the lies ]and chastens us[ scourging every one received , and learning righteousness of Him with the mind of Christ and comforts us with Words of Life
But every little detail of the law must be fulfilled first , bringing them to brokenness nothing , in order for the Lord to come heal the broken hearted and poor in spirit .
Quote from: rosered on March 17, 2018, 02:55:12 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 17, 2018, 04:40:48 AM
:2c:it's not the Holy spirit putting those kinds of thoughts in people's heads.doctrines of demons causing division/strife. smh
Amen sis !!
The Lord warned, When I return will I find faith in the earth ?.
And if He doesn't does that mean no one will be saved in the first order? At this rate 'in the earth' will likely be the only place He finds faith, 'on the Earth'? Forget it.
scripturally.to faint..means to die....but we 'faint not"but mount up on eagle's wings[our spirits rise up from our 'dead bodies/carcass".good emoji imo...to describe
such thouhts as listed..for death/not life was surely being spewed[draon breath] Father,have mercy on your people..that they not be victims of such 'draon-head'meat..
but be founded on truth ,understanding and love. All men are sheep..and you alone can lead them to green pastures and waters of life...and deliver them from allplaces
they have been scattered.
feint=amock blow or attack/pretense.like 'fake someone out" I find both of Marie's emos very accurate. :2c:
I too :iagree:
If we have any kind of confidence in the power of the HOLY SPIRIT to teach us ALL TRUTH . not of ourselves
The testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy , it is the HOLY SPIRIT of Truth .
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
...25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you.
26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. 27Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid....
John 16:13
However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
Acts 1:4
And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss.
Jerusalem The name "Shalem", whether as a town or a deity, is derived from the same root as the word "shalom", meaning peace, so that the common interpretation of the name is now "The City of Peace" or "Abode of Peace". ... Other midrashim say that Jerusalem means "City of Peace".
God put the warning in the bible in the end of anyone adding to or taking away from the BOOK OF LIFE
the Whole book testifies of the Lord Jesus Christ , I believe that warning was put in there on purpose for this very reason , but if you have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ in you , you will never fall from His grace ...
...10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness.
11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells within you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it....
John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.
Acts 2:24
But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
Acts 2:32
God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
Romans 6:4
We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that,
just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:2
For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
It is about being in the right Spirit and whom leads you to Life and is IN YOU and frees you from the slavery of sin ...
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2018, 12:57:10 AM
:faint: :feint:
What on Earth is the difference between these two emojis meant to be. ...I don't know why this site has two virtually identical emojis for exactly the same thing.
:dunno: :search:
The one on the rite has no hair. The one on the left has hair. I relate more to the bald one. I must be an age thing. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2018, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2018, 12:57:10 AM
:faint: :feint:
What on Earth is the difference between these two emojis meant to be. ...I don't know why this site has two virtually identical emojis for exactly the same thing.
:dunno: :search:
It is a way of euphemistically repeating yourself without anyone noticing...
:banana:
I am responding to the post in which Jason wrote that white western people are superior/chosen, there are actual devils in human form, among other things. I feel pretty uncomfortable with those statements and I wanted to share several Bible verses that refute any such claim. I know others on TM do not share this view but I worry about anyone coming to this site and reading that post and thinking it is something representative of UR or representative of what others think here.
Acts 10:34-35 New International Version (NIV)
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Galatians 3
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Numbers 15:15
For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the Lord.
Revelation 7:9 ESV
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Revelation 5:9-10
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
Matthew 28
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Romans 10:12 There is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him
1 Corinthians 12:13
We were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink
James 2:9
If you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers
Ephesians 2:
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Remember, Gentile basically means non-Jew, so the above passage shows that "the two groups" i.e. every human are one in Christ.
Also note the verses that talk about people from all nations and all languages.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on March 18, 2018, 02:19:51 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2018, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2018, 12:57:10 AM
:faint: :feint:
What on Earth is the difference between these two emojis meant to be. ...I don't know why this site has two virtually identical emojis for exactly the same thing.
:dunno: :search:
It is a way of euphemistically repeating yourself without anyone noticing...
:banana:
:laugh2: :laugh2: I like them because they faint first one then the other.. (I often repeat myself anyway..)
I, for one, am emoji
addicted? dependant?
P.S. - Thank - you, GodIsLove! Great verses! :thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 18, 2018, 03:00:44 AM
I am responding to the post in which Jason wrote that white western people are superior/chosen, there are actual devils in human form, among other things. I feel pretty uncomfortable with those statements and I wanted to share several Bible verses that refute any such claim. I know others on TM do not share this view but I worry about anyone coming to this site and reading that post and thinking it is something representative of UR or representative of what others think here.
Acts 10:34-35 New International Version (NIV)
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Galatians 3
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Numbers 15:15
For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the Lord.
Revelation 7:9 ESV
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Revelation 5:9-10
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
Matthew 28
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Romans 10:12 There is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him
1 Corinthians 12:13
We were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink
James 2:9
If you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers
Ephesians 2:
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Remember, Gentile basically means non-Jew, so the above passage shows that "the two groups" i.e. every human are one in Christ.
Also note the verses that talk about people from all nations and all languages.
QuoteActs 10:34-35 New International Version (NIV)
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Does anyone else feel that the second clause of this sentence qualifies and limits the first clause. It suggests God actually favors those who 'fear him and do what's right'. Which I don't think anyone would really find surprising but it means that showing no favoritism is probably not an absolute statement. It just means He favors things like 'justice' and 'righteousness', rather than the trivial things we show favouritism over.
In answer to your main point, I think it's pretty clear most of us find what Jason says uncomfortable. I know I find it particularly so because of the 'What if...' context he used to seem to distance himself from saying he actually believed these things even though if he doesn't, why mention them?
You have provided great quotes although I fear that people who already hold this position have devised ways to get around them.
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2018, 06:16:28 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on March 18, 2018, 02:19:51 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2018, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2018, 12:57:10 AM
:faint: :feint:
What on Earth is the difference between these two emojis meant to be. ...I don't know why this site has two virtually identical emojis for exactly the same thing.
:dunno: :search:
It is a way of euphemistically repeating yourself without anyone noticing...
:banana:
:laugh2: :laugh2: I like them because they faint first one then the other.. (I often repeat myself anyway..)
I, for one, am emoji addicted? dependant?
P.S. - Thank - you, GodIsLove! Great verses! :thumbsup:
After reading that comment, Marie, I've taken more of a look at them and seen that it's more complicated than that, they create a completely staggered effect, meaning they fall together, right first and left first at various different times.
MusicLover - I don't think 'euphemistically' is the word you mean given what a euphemism is.
EW (who Marie didn't quote) - the hair difference wasn't one of the differences I'd noticed. I'd been drawn to how the mouth moves and how both mouths end up in different positions, and supposedly suggest a slightly different emotion, before the faint.
I think this emoticon thing is an odd part of the discussion, but maybe that's just me. Not sure it really is even worth thinking about?
no..jc...I think it's becoming ridiculous...critiqueing to the level of straining gnats.I suppose we will be expected to'gulp down camels'next :sigh: :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on March 19, 2018, 07:41:08 PM
I think this emoticon thing is an odd part of the discussion, but maybe that's just me. Not sure it really is even worth thinking about?
I think so! I mean, wouldn't it be awesome to have the next 10 pages filled with arguments about pixels on a screen? :winkgrin:
QuoteMusicLover - I don't think 'euphemistically' is the word you mean given what a euphemism is.
Well, I think it was. Just stretching it a bit...
For example, if I put :dontknow: :dontknow: twice, you would ask, why are you copying yourself?
But, if I put :dontknow: :dunno2: in this way, I am repeating myself, but making it less blunt in repeating myself.
Yeah, that probably doesn't work, but this conversation has deviated from the original enough already. :rolllol:
Quote from: jabcat on March 19, 2018, 07:41:08 PM
I think this emoticon thing is an odd part of the discussion, but maybe that's just me. Not sure it really is even worth thinking about?
Maybe, but emoticons are generally light and humorous and the direction of this discussion had got more than a bit dark.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on March 19, 2018, 08:07:48 PM
QuoteMusicLover - I don't think 'euphemistically' is the word you mean given what a euphemism is.
Well, I think it was. Just stretching it a bit...
For example, if I put :dontknow: :dontknow: twice, you would ask, why are you copying yourself?
But, if I put :dontknow: :dunno2: in this way, I am repeating myself, but making it less blunt in repeating myself.
Yeah, that probably doesn't work, but this conversation has deviated from the original enough already. :rolllol:
I'm not sure how a word that described how humans sometimes invent and/or appropriate other words in order to replace words that a listener might find tasteless and be uncomfortable hearing can be applied to emojis which exist to express emotions, any emotions in picture form.
And I think the emoticons you are using are different. The second is an indifferent 'I don't know' the second is more a 'aarrggh, I don't know, please stop asking me! I don't want to think about it'
I myself just see it as a simple example of the thread itself as a whole, seeing an obvious difference but both stating the same thing .....
and what I mean by that is:
we are different individuals but we are both (or more) stating the same thing in that we are both (or more) stating "what we believe"
This may be :offtopic: , but I have an :idea2:. I have been watching as :hijacked: concerning Emoticons. I'm kind of a :cyberworld: :newb: , so I don't know how, but a U.R. Goodnews message using Emoticons :dontknow: . There's even one for a part of the title for this thread :icon_farao: . We could make an e-tract.
"All souls (people) belong to Me." - LOVE
(sorry for any message contrary to this that I posted before)
:Peace2: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:) (I know I've contributed to emoticon exhaustion on this thread but I know no better way to express my feelings on the above post)
Quote from: Jason on March 21, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
"All souls (people) belong to Me." - LOVE
(sorry for any message contrary to this that I posted before)
:Peace2: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 22, 2018, 09:02:21 PM
Quote from: Jason on March 21, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
"All souls (people) belong to Me." - LOVE
(sorry for any message contrary to this that I posted before)
:Peace2: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: Patinak on March 23, 2018, 07:10:40 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 22, 2018, 09:02:21 PM
Quote from: Jason on March 21, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
"All souls (people) belong to Me." - LOVE
(sorry for any message contrary to this that I posted before)
:Peace2: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Oh. ...I was wondering what all the smiley faces were for... :dsunny: :gsmile: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Hooray, Marie has done something original and shown she is an original. Or, alternatively, boo, Marie has done something original and shown she is an individual. Not quite some what the point of that repetition was.
Quote from: CST on March 26, 2018, 03:22:12 PM
Hooray, Marie has done something original and shown she is an original. Or, alternatively, boo, Marie has done something original and shown she is an individual. Not quite some what the point of that repetition was.
Hey, I wouldn't have repeated the other ones. Just thought it would be funny if that kept going for a page long...
You have such a great sense of humor. Truly astounding
I thought you might be, but without establishment or explanation I'm not sure how you expected it to take.
Yeah, that's true...
But, isn't it when you explain a joke it is said to not be funny anymore?
Quote from: Jason on March 21, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
"All souls (people) belong to Me." - LOVE
(sorry for any message contrary to this that I posted before)
:Peace2: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
...I was joining the celebrating.. as a wonderful thing occurred.. :gimmefive:
Amen, Glenda!
My addition of the emoticons was an "Amen" to GodIsLove's emoticons.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious.
Pat
Quote from: MusicLover123 on March 26, 2018, 10:09:54 PM
Yeah, that's true...
But, isn't it when you explain a joke it is said to not be funny anymore?
I get that... at the same time if people don't know you expect them to be involved in something it probably won't be too long before someone either breaks the pattern or asks what's going on.