Does Pharaoh Typify Satan?

[rosered]

Jugghead: "IMO ..... the "carnal mind" is the serpent, it is the devil, it is Satan and of course the first thing the carnal mind does is deny that this is true, the "carnal mind" always finds someone or something else to blame so it is not held accountable."

They're very similar yet different.  Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" and he and his spirits work in the children of disobedience.  You can't just reduce him to the "carnal mind."  If he and his evil messengers were not actually spirits that can possess people, there would be much less evil in the world.  They possess people with ideas and speeches, subtly changing the truth a little bit, or putting some reward to make people do the wrong thing.  I also read in a certain book that Satan is able to supercharge the air, causing certain moods to those who are in the area - there's no reason to doubt something like this, Satan has certainly been given quite a lot of power.

It would be better to say, "The carnal mind is highly SUSCEPTIBLE to Satan and his evil spirits."

What you posted is NOT true.  Satan may be "the WORST spiritual mind" - but he's not flesh and blood nor is he the "carnal mind."

Also: Jesus Himself clearly talked to Satan (when He was tempted and other times as well).  If you and I can't see these spirits, it's because it has not been given to us to see them.  You still need to believe that they are there.  "And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see.  And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha." - he didn't just see some "wrong theologies" or that the encamping host of Syria were "carnal-minded" - he saw the Hosts of God, true, he didn't see Satan (or it doesn't mention it), but Jesus saw and talked to Satan (many, many times).

You should read the whole Bible.  God is the Father of spirits and they are all under His control.  Yes, He can and DOES send lying spirits to convince people to do and believe what He intends.  There is one truth, namely Jesus Christ in Whom The Holy Spirit, God the Father dwells.  He is lord of all - including that spirit named Satan.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." - the faith given from God, and none other

If what I have come to understand and believe is a lie then I shall die and be cleansed of it

and this same principle applies to you as well

If what you have come to understand and believe is a lie then you shall die and be cleansed of it

To God be the glory in the due time appointed to all by Him

  I am going to have to agree with   Jugghead , as to this  carnal mind  being the enemy against the Spirit   Romans 8 ;7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


  the serpent was more subtle  than any beast of the  field   , crafty   ,  with wisdom of the world  , but that is his limits and boundaries  , that serpent was cast our of heaven    when Jesus become the ruler  Prince of princes   over death 

  This  beast  satan is the same old dragon of OLD   spoken out through the scriptures    having 7 heads and ten horns 

   they rule the earthly    kingdoms       Jesus  dealt with them  king of the earth   by the power of the Holy Spirit upon Him

  simply   prince over the power of the air  can mean    the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air 

the atmospheric region    not as    always a spirit but as an influence   of  the mind ,  of authority , by their speech and great swelling words   and vain flatteries  ,  I remember it is about TRUTH and  how the serpent twist the truth  into lies ..



    a spirit is simply Strong's H7307 - ruwach
רוּחַ
Transliteration

ruwach

Pronunciation

rü'·akh (Key)


Part of Speech

feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)

From רִיחַ (H7306)

TWOT Reference

2131a

Outline of Biblical Usage
wind, breath, mind, spirit

breath

wind

of heaven

quarter (of wind), side

breath of air

air, gas

vain, empty thing

spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)

spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour

courage

temper, anger

impatience, patience

spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)

disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse

prophetic spirit

spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)

as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being

spirit (as seat of emotion)

desire

sorrow, trouble

spirit

as seat or organ of mental acts

rarely of the will

as seat especially of moral character

I consider the news media        a powerful influence over the masses  and it is always about  earthly things  mostly

   I can see lower   air and dense as thick  darkness  clouding over mans  reasoning  with Gods Spirit so much  higher in power

  I can see that the love   for knowledge   and worldly wisdom   and not  the love for  God  and His Wisdom   being  the  downfall    because it is temporary    and it is corrupted      by mixing    both that the carnal mind is subjected too and influenced by   
  Mind of the beast is  in total disobedience    against the Mind of Christ[anti-Christ]   from  total obedience to the    desire of God     a higher and more perfect    Wisdom  and ways and reasoning ...

  They are very interchangeable  in the sense of influence   to  being subject to corruption      dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.
"the journalist who wants to expose corruption in high places"
synonyms:   dishonesty, unscrupulousness, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, misconduct, crime, criminality, wrongdoing; More
2.
the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.
synonyms:   alteration, bastardization, debasement, adulteration
"these figures have been subject to corruption"

    When in fact the    Truth can only Come  by the incorruptible  Word of God    as a seed   planted  in the heart and as the Light exposes   a seed  planted in our bodies   of corruption  , by the watering of the  Word , it can begin to sprout   new growth in the truth and  grace   , the mortal body can never inherit the  things of the Spirit     , there is no  good thing in the flesh   , but in the Spirit  of Life  that rises up out of it ...   
  for me and my  :2c:  I can only see the body as a catalyst   that judges  things   by the     outward appearance of things without the Spirit of  God being able to discern    the truth from the lies   working within us ...

a person or thing that precipitates an event.       , this influence of satan to Judas    was tempted by    the carnal mind , the   Spirit had not been given yet  ,   He was influenced  by the     Sanhedrin  , those seats of appetites not wanting to loose there   place of power over the people    , I see them all sitting in darkness , like the  beast    in  Revelations 16  receiving the  mark

  They rejected the LIGHT   they loved the darkness more than the light   and this is the result    ...10And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish

11and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds.

12Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East....


synonyms:   stimulus, stimulation, spark, sparkplug, spur, incitement, impetus
"the governor's speech was a catalyst for debate"

  DIvision   , because you can only stand in the truth   , anything  that tries to  Kill the TRUTH  dies  trying

43Why do you not understand what I am saying?

It is because you are unable to accept My message.

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.

He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth,

because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45  But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!...


  It took both  the serpents    Lie  /influence    to tempt Eve    and the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil    to produce     the mixing of good and evil     
AND THAN   falsely ACCUSE   them before God night and day   , and it is  both   working against    the truth   ,  I can see it as a mind of the beast  carried by thoughts    as breaths or  spirits  spoken   and than actions  done by them as disobedience  to the will of God    , His desire being that no one should perish but that all should come to repentance.  a change of minds   to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness."

Definition of influence for English Language Learners. : the power to change or affect someone or something :

the power to cause changes without directly forcing them to happen. :

a person or thing that affects someone or something in an important way.

  the tree of life  is separate     and full of TRUTH  AND LIFE     

[marie glen]

I do believe it's likely both.. It's always an intriguing study to bring up some of the verses.. both on the enemy/opposer/slanderer.. and also verses about angels..

A partial list..

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
   - when you resist those bad impulses.. they will flee

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
   - seem like good ideas..

Ephesians 6:11-12
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil (greek slanderer). For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks (laleó: to talk) out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god (theos: God, a god) of this world/age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light (augazó: to shine forth) of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon (drakón:  a dragon or huge serpent, mythical monster) was thrown down, that ancient serpent (ophis: a snake, serpent) who is called the devil (diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely) and Satan (Satanas: adversary), the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels (aggelos: an angel, messenger) were thrown down with him.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons (daimonion: an evil-spirit, demon; a heathen deity) believe—and shudder!

Revelation 20:1,2
Then I saw an angel (aggelos: an angel, messenger) coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain, and seized the dragon, the ancient (archaios: original, ancient, primitive) serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him (autos: he, she, it, they, them, or same) for a thousand years.

John 16:11
and in regard to judgment, because the prince (archon:  a ruler, governor, leader, chief, leading man) of this world has been condemned.

John 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast (ekballo: I throw, cast, put out, banish, bring forth, produce) out (exó: outside, without).

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil (diabolos: slanderer, false accuser) took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

1 John 4:4
Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he (ho, hé, to: the) who is in you is greater than he (ho, hé, to: the) who is in the world.

Luke 11:18
And if Satan also is divided against himself (heautou: of himself, herself, itself), how will the kingdom of him (he, she, it, they, them, same) stand? For you say that I cast out demons (daimonion: an evil spirit, a demon, a heathen deity) by Beelzebul (Beelzeboul: Beelzebul, a name of Satan, title of Satan which stresses he is the prince over demons.. demonic [like?] flies).

Luke 10:18
And he said to them, "I saw Satan (Satanas: adversary) fall like lightning from heaven". (interlinear - "out of the heaven having fallen")

I wonder how this could be applied to satan as a nonliving force? As enmity? "out of heaven having fallen"..?

James 1:13 - Let no one say, being tempted -- 'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one - YLT

Matthew 4:1
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Jude 1:9
But when the archangel (archaggelos: a chief angel, i.e. archangel) Michael, contending (dialegomai: to discuss, to address, to preach) with the (ho, hé, to: the) devil (diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely, the slanderer), was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you (su: you)."

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

1 Timothy 3:7
Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the (ho, hé, to: the) devil (diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely, slanderer).

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities (exousia: power to act, authority, - it does say influence, spiritual power) against the (ho, hé, to: the) cosmic powers (kosmokratór: a ruler of this world) over this (ho, hé, to: the) present darkness, against the (ho, hé, to: the) spiritual forces of  evil (ponéria: iniquity) in the (ho, hé, to: the) heavenly places (epouranios: of heaven).

2 Corinthians 2:10-11
Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Luke 4:3
The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."

Matthew 13:39
And the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.

Job 1:7
The Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."

2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders..

[jugghead]

And what I see as "the prince of the power of the air" are words that proceed from "the father of lies",

just as Christ (the Word/the prince of peace) proceedeth forth from God (our heavenly Father) (John 8:42)

so does the anti-Christ (a word/prince of anti-peace/unrest) proceed forth from the father of lies causing everything against peace

If Christ is the Word of God would not the anti-Christ be the anti-word of the adversary to God, are not thoughts converted to words by the mixture of sound and moving air spoken by the tongue? Do not thoughts originate in the mind?

When air/breath is redirected through the larynx it produces sound, sound is the power of air/breath and the tongue forms that sound into words, and words are thoughts manifested outside the body.

"the prince of the power of the air" are the words of the spirit of the world (the father of lies), a world that is carnally minded and as a whole "one carnal mind" that deceives the children of God

my  :2c:

[rosered]

 

  Amen ! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:  Thanks    CST  Marie  and Jugg ...  the dead know nothing  about GOD Even we have to be taught of the Holy Spirit  to live

  I see the WORD  of   TRUTH/ GOD  in full power   the dead shall  Hear His VOICE   AND LIVE ,,, 

as the prideful and arrogant  boast great things   and the   great swelling words   as hot air and great noise that actually speak against  GOD /TRUTH /LOVE !



2Peter 2 deliverance from False Prophets

...17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18With lofty but empty words, they appeal to the sensual passions of the flesh and entice the ones who are just escaping from those who live in error.
19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to corruption. For a man is a slave to whatever has overcome him....
Berean Study Bible ·
Psalm 73:8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression; They speak from on high.

Ephesians 4:17
So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.



2 Peter 2:2
Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed.




Jude 1:16
These men are discontented grumblers, following after their own lusts; their mouths spew arrogance; they flatter others for their own advantage.



 
It is the  voice  /Breath of God breathing in them from the Spirit and making the    living waters  voice  of many waters from Above   in unity  and as One .



  1John 4 Testing the Spirits
...5They are of the world. That is why they speak from the world's perspective, and the world listens to them.


6We are from God.

Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.


7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God.

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God....

John 8:23
Then He told them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

John 10:3
The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

John 18:37
"Then You are a king!" Pilate said. "You say that I am a king," Jesus answered. "For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice."

  When Jesus   returned    He  breathed on them they received the Holy Spirit  as a wind that blows and   changes the mind and heart   towards God

    to respire re·spire
rəˈspī(ə)r/Submit
verb
breathe.
"he lay back, respiring deeply"
(of a plant) carry out respiration, especially at night when photosynthesis has ceased.
literary
recover hope, courage, or strength after a time of difficulty.
"the archduke, newly respiring from so long a war"


   Very  Beautiful really when you consider  every particle   and speck   is of Gods Word spoke into Being  by His own  Holy  breath   God is everything  and in everything .

[marie glen]

Amen Rosie.. :cloud9:

[sheila]

...we ALL have sojourned in EGYPT/this world..where we have been taken captive to sin to do the will of Pharoah/Prince of this world. when we leavethis world..we willnever

  return.......we allhave a pass-over..where we will inherit our own promised land.  Pharoah won't let go! even though God instructed him

to through Moses[God hardened hisheart]  when you see allthese things..lookup,your deliverance draws nigh. :2c:

[Jason]

Then repent and be cleansed. There are a lot of things that are wrong with the concept of Satan many of which are demonstrated in your post above.

Many stories exist about Satan in society that inform our concept, Faust, Robert Jonhson, The Divine Comedy, even Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey; none of them have explicit support from the Bible, so what parts of our concept do have explicit support from the Bible? Well, none so far as I can tell, the word Satan appears even now and then whenever it does people have read it as a proper noun of the same being and tried to put all the bits together and tried to formulate a narrative about this being which the Bible only seems to speak about implicitly at best.

Given the capacity of these beings to lead people astray in the way you say they can and like to think that God would have given us some better warning and information about this great enemy which would be preserved clearly in the Bible.

You say that if it wasn't for Satan we'd be a lot less evil but that's just the problem, who's to say how much less evil we'd be and who'd have the nerve to measure it. If the carnal mind is enough to put us at estrangement from God that's evil and dangerous enough, we don't need some invisible agency we don't know whether we've encountered or not to give us an excuse for our supposed 'worst' behavior. That makes it hard to know where our responsibility ends and therefore what it's justified to correct us for, or indeed, what the point would be of doing so.

Matthew 8:28-34 28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" 30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs." 32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.

Mark 1:21-34 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Drives Out an Impure Spirit
21 They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. 22 The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. 23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!"
25 "Be quiet!" said Jesus sternly. "Come out of him!" 26 The impure spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.
27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, "What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him." 28 News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee.
Jesus Heals Many
29 As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30 Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they immediately told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.
32 That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.

So... the "carnal mind" came out of those two men, and went into the pigs and made them commit suicide.  Well... that's about the sum of what you guys are saying... (notice that this isn't even "Satan" who was possessing these men, they were lesser "demons")... Are you going to make some sort of claim that the "insanity"/"carnal mind" of these men was so great, that when Jesus restored them to their right mind, he had to transfer the "insanity"/"carnal mind" into the pigs?  Did not the demons beg Him to go into the herd of pigs?  Are you going to make some sort of claim that the writers of the gospels were in gross error thinking that demons exist?

New International Version
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him.

New Living Translation
Jesus demanded, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, for he was filled with many demons.

English Standard Version
Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," for many demons had entered him.

Berean Study Bible
"What is your name?" Jesus asked. "Legion," he answered, because many demons had gone into him.

Berean Literal Bible
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," because many demons were entered into him.

New American Standard Bible
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.

King James Bible
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Christian Standard Bible
"What is your name?" Jesus asked him. "Legion," he said, because many demons had entered him.

Contemporary English Version
Jesus asked the man, "What is your name?" He answered, "My name is Lots." He said this because there were "lots" of demons in him.

Good News Translation
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is 'Mob,'" he answered--because many demons had gone into him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"What is your name?" Jesus asked him." Legion," he said--because many demons had entered him.

International Standard Version
Jesus asked the man, "What's your name?" He answered, "Legion," because many demons had gone into him.

NET Bible
Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion," because many demons had entered him.

New Heart English Bible
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion," for many demons had entered into him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But Yeshua asked him, "What is your name?" But he said to him, "Legion", because many demons had entered him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He answered, "Legion [Six Thousand]." (Many demons had entered him.)

New American Standard 1977
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion, because many demons were entered into him.

King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is your name? And he said, Legion: because many demons were entered into him.

American King James Version
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is your name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

American Standard Version
And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many demons were entered into him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus asked him, saying: What is thy name? But he said: Legion; because many devils were entered into him.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus asked him saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: for many demons had entered into him.

English Revised Version
And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many devils were entered into him.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many demons had entered into him.

Weymouth New Testament
"What is your name?" Jesus asked him. "Legion," he replied--because a great number of demons had entered into him;

World English Bible
Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion," for many demons had entered into him.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus questioned him, saying, 'What is thy name?' and he said, 'Legion,' (because many demons were entered into him,)

If "Satan" is the "carnal mind", and he's also one of two of "the anointed cherubs that covereth" and Moses had to make the tabernacle according to the true pattern in heaven, then the "carnal mind" has been at the throne of God until Jesus ascended and sat at the right hand of God the Everlasting Father, and "made war with (Satan) the "carnal mind" (and his slightly less carnal minds? (demons)), the devil, and cast him out."  How exactly is Satan the "carnal mind" (of everyone) if he is specifically one of two "anointed cherubs that covereth"?  If you have to have a spiritual mind to be "seated in heavenly places with Christ" then how has the "carnal mind" been truly seated at the throne of God since the days of Moses (at least)?  Now we know that the "sons of God" or "morning stars" or "angels" sang and shouted for joy when God laid the foundation of the earth from the book of Job.  God Himself said that Job wasn't there.  If the "carnal mind" was the enemy (in Job's fleshly body), and yet it was also the "anointed cherub that covereth" which WAS at the throne of God, how was Job not there?  We also know that (Satan) the "carnal mind" drew a third part of the "sons of God" or "morning stars" or "angels" down to earth with him.  Hmmm... if it's talking about actual stars/suns then I'm pretty sure the earth would be absolutely demolished.  There's just no way that you can actually say that spirits don't exist.  Not if you look at all of the scriptural evidence.  You may not believe, but you're only denying the "holy prophets/apostles" and Jesus Christ Himself as far as I can tell.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but do it with actual scripture (AND/OR ask The Holy Spirit to correct me), not just your ideas.

Now maybe I'm just "insane"/"carnally-minded"/"Satan" and Jesus Christ can come and cast my "insanity/"carnal mind"/"Satan" into a herd of pigs and I'll be cured.  I'm not doubting Jesus Christ, I'm doubting your theology that "spirits" (other than humans) don't exist.

2 Chronicles 18:18-22 18Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 20Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' "'By what means?' the LORD asked. 21"'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 22"So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Was this "spirit" just some "breath of wind" or the "carnal mind" WITHOUT a body??? How was it still the "carnal mind" when it was not flesh???  If it indeed was the "carnal mind" then why did God have to put it into the mouth of the prophets (were they spiritual and God had to force them to be carnal to accomplish His purpose? - oh, yeah, that's likely... it's so easy to always be spiritual, so much so that God had to revert these prophets to carnality... yep!)

Furthermore, Jesus Christ Himself decreed that nobody has ascended into the heavens.  Therefore, "all the multitudes of heaven" couldn't possibly have been humans.  The only logical conclusion would be that there are indeed "spirits" - both good and evil.  Or maybe the "carnal mind" is "all the multitudes of heaven".  I don't quite get why Adam and Eve were cast out if that is the case... why then are there still "carnal minds" in heaven?

New Living Translation
"And the spirit replied, 'I will go out and inspire all of Ahab's prophets to speak lies.' "'You will succeed,' said the LORD. 'Go ahead and do it.'

English Standard Version
And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'

New American Standard Bible
"He said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.'

King James Bible
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

Christian Standard Bible
"So he said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "Then he said, 'You will entice him and also prevail. Go and do that.'

Contemporary English Version
"I'll make Ahab's prophets lie to him." "Good!" the LORD replied. "Now go and do it. You will be successful."

Good News Translation
The spirit replied, 'I will go and make all of Ahab's prophets tell lies.' The LORD said, 'Go and deceive him. You will succeed.'"

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"So he said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "Then He said, 'You will entice him and also prevail. Go and do that.'

International Standard Version
"'I will go,' he announced, 'and I will be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets!' "So the LORD said, 'You're just the one to deceive him. You will be successful. Go and do it.'

NET Bible
He replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD said, 'Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed.'

New Heart English Bible
"He said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "He said, 'You will entice him, and will prevail also. Go forth, and do so.'

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"The Spirit answered, 'I will go out and be a spirit that tells lies through the mouths of all of Ahab's prophets.' "The LORD said, 'You will succeed in deceiving him. Go and do it.'

JPS Tanakh 1917
And he said: I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said: Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also; go forth, and do so.

New American Standard 1977
"And he said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.'

Jubilee Bible 2000
And he said, I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail; go out and do even so.

King James 2000 Bible
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, You shall entice him, and you shall also prevail: go out, and do even so.

American King James Version
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, You shall entice him, and you shall also prevail: go out, and do even so.

American Standard Version
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answered: I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said: Thou shalt deceive, and shalt prevail: go out, and do so.

Darby Bible Translation
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice [him], and also succeed: go forth, and do so.

English Revised Version
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out and do even so.

World English Bible
"He said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "He said, 'You will entice him, and will prevail also. Go forth, and do so.'

Young's Literal Translation
and he saith, I go out, and have become a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He saith, Thou dost entice, and also, thou art able; go out and do so.

It's not really my point to "blame" my sins on Satan or anything like that.  If spirits (other than humans) don't actually exist, then what is God actually doing in these scriptures?  Don't just go along with the crowd, actually search the scriptures (and sure, use multiple versions).

Besides all of this, from these scriptural examples (assuming the "carnal mind" is Satan) we could then infer that you have to be the "carnal mind"/"demon-possessed" to know Jesus Christ.  These "spirits" knew Him.

All of the consequences are staggering if you truly believe the "carnal mind" is Satan.  If that is the case then all we're warring against is flesh and blood (our carnal nature).  If Satan is not an actual being, who actually opposes Jesus Christ and God, then who was it saying things such as "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.  Does Job fear God for nothing? Have not you made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he has on every side? you have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.  Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.  But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face."  - was "carnally-minded" Job just talking to God and tempting God to harm (Job) himself?????  How did this "carnal mind" go forth from God's throne and smite Job?  Why did God have to tell this "carnal mind" not to kill Job?

Besides all this, how does this "leviathan" the wicked, piercing, crooked serpent (Satan) behold all high things and how is he a king over all the children of pride?  If all people's minds are Satan (the "carnal mind"), then why are there "None so fierce that dare stir him up:"?  People stir up other people all of the time...   :sigh:

[Jason]

Anyway, Jesus would not refer to Satan as "the father of lies" NOR as "a murderer from the beginning" if he wasn't a specific entity.  If you are going to choose not to pay attention to "the" and "a" in these cases, then you may as well revert back to not believing that "all" means "all".  Therefore then... you don't believe in The Victorious Gospel of Christ.

Well... that's only if you choose this path, I guess.

I'm not trying to cause division, simply pointing out that it's absurd to think Satan is the "carnal mind".  How can the "carnal mind" flee from you if you flee from fornication?  Will your "carnal mind" just leave and never come back?  What about the parable about the strong man... is the "carnal mind" a man?  Did Christ (being the stronger man) merely defeat the "carnal mind"?  What about Judas?  Was he the only apostle who had a "carnal mind" (even though they hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet)?  Yet you say that the "devil" he had was only his "carnal mind".

There are probably millions MORE absurdities that take place other than the ones I've pointed out if Satan is merely the "carnal mind".

[jabcat]

I personally happen to agree with you Jason that the adversary or satan is an entity, a distinct spiritual being - that takes advantage of our weak spots and influences our mind if allowed.

There are various POVs and this could turn into a hot button divisive argument.   

Here's to  :Peace2: ful  dialogue.  :)

[rosered]

I personally happen to agree with you Jason that the adversary or satan is an entity, a distinct spiritual being - that takes advantage of our weak spots and influences our mind if allowed.

There are various POVs and this could turn into a hot button divisive argument.   

Here's to  :Peace2: ful  dialogue.  :)

  Hi   bro James      I sure do not  cause  any  problem for anyone   . nor stir up a hornets nest  :laughing7:  [figure of speech]


   What is impossible  to explain in words what  people feel  is emotions  and the seat of emotions is the   human heart .
That no human can judge their own hearts  much less anyone else's   , of what they will   act on   or do   in any given  situation   .


  God is LOVE  the strongest and most powerful   emotion    the human heart can experience , most   any heart is driven by desires  animal by nature and the human   is one of the most complicated creatures God ever made   with complexity , as with a nature and ability to be most like  Himself ..

  That when subjected  to the Word of God  , becomes a  new creature in Christ   having the breath of God in them or they would  be inanimate   and more like an object  without life  form  not alive, especially not in the manner of animals and humans.
"inanimate objects like stones"
showing no sign of life; lifeless.
  Oddly enough  God s WORD   describes  and  compares  our hearts as hardened like stones  .  Lacking feelings  of  emotions  as dead [nothingness / vanity ]
  Yet vanity can also mean , self will ,  being  strong   love and desires and prideful   wisdom  and of the earthly glory  and fame


   If you can see  swines flesh as  a human being that eats anything or anyone  up , is saying that they have no self control

The Bible teaches us to  have self control   .

How do we devour one another except  by anger   and pride  ? a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.
"the team was bursting with pride after recording a sensational victory"
synonyms:   pleasure, joy, delight, gratification, fulfillment, satisfaction, a sense of achievement
"take pride in a good job well done"
2.
a group of lions forming a social unit.
verb
1.
be especially proud of a particular quality or skill.   This   is another strong  emotion  , God told Cain to get a handle on  , Cains anger/ pride  was  caused by jealousy    another strong emotion  from anger   and selfish ambition and desires to serve ones self   more than God   or His desire that none should perish  off the  face of the earth  , till love be   completed in them  from God . 
 
It  causes one to kill   another  ,  that disobedience  against   the   truth .    than is sin and error   born from a desire to  rule over    God , not God rule over them .   
  God is  described as many    Holy , pure and  good  attributes , regard something as being caused by (someone or something).

   We have knowledge  of good and evil    and get to  pick one or the other    as our   substance and source   of reason ,
When God said let us reason together   , not apart from God .
  When one reasons with  any group of  others  mankind becomes  dangerous  , causing self harm   and harm towards   others   

  causing  to rule over them  by force   , making them subject to   desires   of the self willed   and  NOT THE WILL OF GOD
  will and desire are very interchangeable  words    in     meanings .
  reasoning
noun
1.
a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
"the minister resigned for personal reasons"
synonyms:   cause, ground(s), basis, rationale; More
2.
the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
"there is a close connection between reason and emotion"
synonyms:   rationality, logic, logical thought, reasoning, cognition; formalratiocination
"postmodern voices railing against reason"
verb
1.
think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
"humans do not reason entirely from facts"
synonyms:   think rationally, think logically, use one's common sense, use one's head/brain; More


  We have  boundaries  that God has made   for the  benefits    of all   to LIVE by   ,  When you  go past a boundary   God has made ,  you break   a rule   and trespass   against   God and  your fellow  mankind   .
  Evil is a force that is opposing    GOOD        the tree of knowledge  of good and evil is the source   of   mixing   both good and evil desires      a desire    is a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.

  As is a strong   lust to do something  as   a  very strong sexual desire.
"he knew that his lust for her had returned"
synonyms:   sexual desire, sexual appetite, sexual longing, ardor, desire, passion;  libido, sex drive, sexuality, biological urge; lechery, lasciviousness, concupiscence; informalhorniness, the hots, randiness
"his lust for her"
verb
1.
have a very strong sexual desire for someone.
"he really lusted after me in those days"
synonyms:   desire, be consumed with desire for, find sexually attractive, crave, covet, ache for, burn for; informalhave the hots for, fancy, have a thing about/for, drool over
"he lusted after his employer's wife"

  God made   man  as male and female   in the beginning   as Adam    before    Eve was even formed out of him

  There is our greatest clue   in Genesis  chapter one   ..    meaning origines    of how birthing  somthing happens    and why and what for and  as to   whom is the source   or cause for it to happen   .

Anyone  whom reads the Bible and  looks deeper into the   meanings  will be able to tell  all Origin/birth    come by Gods Word and Spirit of Life   , the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived.

How did   Gods pure  and Holy Word   that  is incorruptible    become   so corrupted ?

  By mixing  , plain and simple explanation   , and GOD will separate and divide   and make new  from what was MIXED  and ruined   by  a little evil destroys much good ...

Incorruptible not susceptible to corruption, especially by bribery.
synonyms:   honest, honorable, trustworthy, principled, high-principled, unbribable, moral, ethical, good, virtuous
"an incorruptible man"
2.
not subject to death or decay; everlasting.
synonyms:   imperishable, indestructible, indissoluble, enduring, everlasting
"an incorruptible substance"

  corrupted verb
past tense: corrupted; past participle: corrupted
1.
cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms:   alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"

What is impossible for man to do not knowing what is good and evil  IS yet without   mixing them   , is only POSSIBLE  WITH GOD .
GOD   is the only origin  of what is in pure form   and untainted by the world and spotless   , untouched    and HOLY  without

  any outside influences     to  change   ..
   Everything else God made is subject to change   .

  I have to stop   here it is getting way to long for the average reader to  focus on any  longer .

  But the simple truth is what  starts  in innocence   and becomes corrupted by   many outside influences  of knowledge by mixing  good and evil till the complete  and perfect comes .   
Jesus Christ is the  PURE WORD OF GOD   that returns to   GOD   unspotted by the world  and judges the world as corrupted

and is the separating factor  everything is judged by,  for and though .  This   WORD OF GOD    is teaching  that everything will be  compared too  or for ,  or against . the occupation, profession, or work of a teacher.
2.
ideas or principles taught by an authority.
  an adversary is one's opponent in a contest, conflict, or dispute.   
 
Does anything or anyone think that  there is any Higher  Wisdom than  Gods  own ?   
All will know better   than that   ,  in the end  result   , than from the beginning that all of Gods creation is being subjected too .
  Each in their own order   , seems to me that  ,if God had already finished His works   already  FROM   the beginning

we are just now beginning to grasp  some of   Gods wisdom  and learn what His own righteousness is in the earth  really means .  .
 
  Its a Word , against all words  formed against Him ,   that everyone will  be tested by .  His Word is a  consuming fire .
   
and the tongue is the world of iniquity   James 3   and little member that is  a devil ,  full of unruly EVIL  ,  that nothing can tame but GOD HIMSELF  , after you suffer because of it for a while .


  James 4 What causes fights and quarrels among you?

Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight.


You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

"God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble."

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

So your tongue is  compared to the  the devil  and your heart is   a seat of   desires   and we fight against God  and each other  ,    because  the world is     full of evil  and the world    is dead   to   a HOLY GOD   , He raises  you up out of  the dead to Life in Him  by His Word of LIFE  and By His Spirit of life , Jesus was    our   greatest  example  of that and if we cannot learn and see that  we have no  living  hope    but are  still dead in sin and error   yet to be released by  death and its rider

namely yourself  ..  Job   40   has helped me to see    something    a very powerful   WORD OF TRUTH 

   God told Job  , Did you know your own right arm can save you ?   wayyyyy back then 


11"Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
            And look on everyone who is proud, and make him low.

      12"Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him,
            And tread down the wicked where they stand.

      13"Hide them in the dust together;
            Bind them in the hidden place.

      14"Then I will also confess to you,
            That your own right hand can save you.

Is not Jesus CHRIST  at the right hand of POWER   ALWAYS ?

Here  is a really awesome  article Question: "Why does Scripture emphasize the right hand of God?"

Answer: The Scripture has several words translated "right" and the usage of the term, "right hand" ranges from a direction, to the opposite of wrong, what is just or what conforms to an established standard, and to a place of honor or authority. In the case of division or appointment in the Bible, the right hand or right side came first, as when Israel (Jacob) divided the blessings to Joseph's sons before he died (Genesis 48:13-14).

In addition, a person of high rank who put someone on his right hand gave him equal honor with himself and recognized him as possessing equal dignity and authority. And this is what the Apostle Paul writes of Jesus Christ in Ephesians. "And what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age" (Ephesians 1:19-21). Here we see God exalting Jesus above all others by seating Him at the right hand of the Father.

The term "God's right hand" in prophecy refers to the Messiah to whom is given the power and authority to subdue His enemies (Psalm 110:1; Psalm 118:16). We find a quote in Matthew 22:44 from Psalm 110:1, which is a Messianic Psalm. "The Son of David" is claimed by the LORD Jesus Christ as He is the "greater son of David" or the Messiah. In this passage of Matthew 22, Jesus questions the Pharisees about who they think the "Christ" or the Messiah is. "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is He? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make Thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?" (Matthew 22:41-45, KJV). The position of the Messiah is at God's right hand.

The fact that Jesus Christ is at the "right hand of God" was a sign to the disciples that Jesus had indeed gone to heaven. In John 16:7-15, Jesus told the disciples that He had to go away and He would send the Holy Spirit. So the coming of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-13) was proof positive that Jesus was indeed in heaven seated at the right hand of God. This is confirmed in Romans 8:34 where the Apostle Paul writes that Christ is sitting at God's right hand making intercession for us.

Therefore, what we can say is that "God's right hand" refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God (John 1:1-5). The fact that Christ is "sitting" refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done and when the fullness of the gentiles is brought in (Romans 11:25), Christ's enemies will be made His footstool as the end of the age comes, all prophecy is completed, and time is no more.

  If none of this is   taken    as personal   than were do any of us stand in  the TRUTH  ?  Being the standard  everything is    measured  by and for and through   .  and what is double minded  really mean ? ,  the beast head/authority / mind  has to go in order for the Mind of Christ to  come and  take   all  power   & authority   over the heart and mind /soul /life and body ..

[CST]

Thanks, I don't think you need to quote all those different versions of the same text I pretty sure I get the point, the story of the Gadarene swine does look pretty specific and make it hard to believe it doesn't actually mean some real beings have actually possessed this man, but what are these beings. What are 'demons' are they simply fallen angels that have deteriorated, or are they a special type of evil beings that we have no idea when they come from, except that somehow god must have created them.

People stir up other people all of the time...

Quite right they do... and that's not all they stir up. Before we continue I need to make clear what has so far not been clear because I've simply been following on from a possible misunderstanding of the words of jugghead. What I need to clarify is that while I think in a certain sense the carnal mind is Satan I do not believe that Satan is the carnal mind. Satan is a Hebrew term for 'adversary' and is is used to refer to different and various adversaries throughout scripture.

Job is a strange book that confuses a lot of its readers, many people who have set their mind and heart to study it struggle to get their head around it. The main thrust of the text is that a righteous man (even though the Bible makes clear that in an absolute sense there's no such thing)  has a sudden change in fortune whereby he essentially loses everything and goes into despair. After this a group of three friends of rather dubious nature attempt to console Job in ways that are less than honourable. Needless to say I don't trust these 'friends'.

I don't take the opening of Job literally and this is important for my further understanding of the story. To me in Job the characters of the court represent prayers and supplications of man brought to God, these three 'friends' are envious of Job's success and bring their complaints to God, Satan represents this process. This interpretation, to me, explains why, in Job, at the end of the story God reprimands the three 'friends' for their behaviour while 'Satan' is never seen again.

Now, to your more specific points. I'll go with the one from Chronicles (and Kings, it's in Kings too) first because you've mentioned it previously and so I've already been thinking about it.

The question you ask about the nature of the deceiving spirit is a very important one. It's certainly hard to believe that it is a demon because God co-operates with it and seems to condone it's plan and actions even if we might think it seems morally dubious.

But why does God need to do this? The concept of deceit here suggests knowing the truth and yet giving the opposite. The idea of having to send a deceiving spirit into the mouths of all Ahab's prophets suggests that Ahab's prophets are legitimate, that they correctly foresee Ahab's defeat and death and would tell him so, unless God intercedes to prevent them doing so. This is a concept that makes no sense, if they intend to tell Ahab the truth would they not notice if this lying spirit in their mouth makes their tongue say otherwise, a concept which the literal reading of the text suggests? Zedekiah didn't seem to think so, he was clearly highly offended by the suggest he wasn't telling the truth to Ahab but he clearly wasn't and Michaiah upbraids him by making a prophesy that, unfortunately, the full resolution of which is not contained in the text of Bible.

All that said though, Ahab's attitude to Michaiah - I hate him he never prophesies anything good - coupled with what Ahab does to him after he makes this prophesy seems to more more than enough reason for his other prophets to be sycophantic and be dishonest about what they foresee and only tell Ahab what they think he wants to hear so the idea that God needs to actively put some objective deceiving spirit in their mouths to get them to lie to him - and apparently not notice they're lying - seems to confer a degree of integrity of them it doesn't seem consistent to imagine that they possess.

The material about Legion is a lot harder I concede, the demon Legion does seem to engage directly with Jesus in conversation even though it's hard to imagine exactly what meant to be happening, are they speaking through the mouth of the swine heard? They seem to be but if they are you've got a very rare event, the Bible is written as though such things are common and if people running into demons and them haranguing them like this is something that happens every day yet it not something that we tend to see much about on the news. Also when the demon says 'we are many' is that a collective many or just many, many. What would be the difference between a man being possessed by one demon and many they all make his life impossible so wouldn't one be enough? And if there are all these demons why aren't we all possessed?

What's Jesus excising here. I don't believe in demons in the way they seem to be presented here. But I do believe that Jesus has a powerful command over nature and nature is more than it appears to us the Bible just presents it more objectively than it actually is.

The Bible does seem to suggest that demons exist and possess people but it also say that God will not test people beyond their strength and yet demons seem to possess people and when they do they people they possess have no power to get shot of them on their own which seems to violate that concept.

I recognise that taken to it's conclusion whatever a demon is meant to represent could be said to have the same problem but it makes more sense than God allowing objective enemies we can not see or fight in the majority of cases to blunder around our planet which he gave us to steward and corrupt us without warning or sufficient protection. That idea does not fit with God's merciful nature.

[jugghead]

The logic in why I believe what I do is, religion teaches a concept of hell that people who believe in UR no longer believe, so why continue to believe in the concept of Satan the way religion teaches?

There are three things I no longer trust

1. religion
2. the people of religion
3. the words they speak

[CST]

I certainly see your point but people of the Christian religion are trying to teach the Bible as they think it should be said so at least some of the things they teach must be correct, mainly the love derived stuff I expect. That only becomes a problem in our pretty universal failure to actually practice it.

For me if I thought the Bible teaching on Satan and demons was clearer and more explicit I feel I would be compelled to accept it, but I'm dubious about accepting something that isn't clearly defined and seems to deny sense.

[rosered]

  I can only Hope   God helps us understand   His Word of truth , over speculation ,  I am learning as well  , I will never   say I   know  ,  I will always say I need you God,  to know  YOUR TRUTH   and  what you want us to  understand .

  the man/men  at the Gadarene Gergesa, also Gergasa or the Country of the Gergesenes, is a place on the eastern (Golan Heights) side of the Sea of Galilee located at some distance to the ancient Decapolis cities of Gadara and Gerasa. It is mentioned in some ancient manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew as the place where the Miracle of the Swine took place, an exorcism performed by Jesus who drove demons out of two possessed men and into a herd of pigs.

All three Synoptic Gospels mention this miracle, but only Matthew writes about two possessed men instead of just one, and only some manuscripts of his Gospel name the location as Gergesa, while the other copies, as well as all versions of Luke and Mark, mention either Gadara [city of tombs ]or Gerasa [Gergesenes means "those who come from pilgrimage or fight."] (see Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39, Matthew 8:28-34).

  gods are idols of the  heart that   mankind loves to worship   many gods  , selves included  , they do not know any better   , the dead know nothing , this man  or men   knew   violence .


When you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you will be as gods  and against the true and ONE God   as   defiant   knowing they were naked  , hiding themselves from God and  making for themselves  coverings  by their own hands ..  gen 1  children of disobedience ..  adjective. 1. characterized by defiance; boldly resistant or challenging: a defiant attitude. Origin of defiant.



  You are gods , Strong's H430 - 'elohiym
אֱלֹהִים
Transliteration

'elohiym

Pronunciation

el·ō·hēm' (Key)


Part of Speech

masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)

Plural of אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)

TWOT Reference

93c

Outline of Biblical Usage
(plural)

rulers, judges

divine ones

angels

gods

(plural intensive - singular meaning)

god, goddess

godlike one

works or special possessions of God

the (true) God

God


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2606
AV — God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1


Psalms 82   the gods of this world ... judges and princes
...5They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7"Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."...


John 10:34
Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?

Psalm 8:5
Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!

Psalm 82:1
A Psalm of Asaph. God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers.

Psalm 89:26
"He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'

Ezekiel 28:2
"Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas'; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God--

Zechariah 12:8
"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.


Psalm 14:4
Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?

Psalm 46:2
Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea;

Proverbs 2:13
From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness;

Isaiah 59:9
Therefore justice is far from us, And righteousness does not overtake us; We hope for light, but behold, darkness, For brightness, but we walk in gloom.

Jeremiah 4:22
"For My people are foolish, They know Me not; They are stupid children And have no understanding. They are shrewd to do evil, But to do good they do not know."

Jeremiah 23:12
"Therefore their way will be like slippery paths to them, They will be driven away into the gloom and fall down in it; For I will bring calamity upon them, The year of their punishment," declares the LORD.



Cutting himself with stones     This is only one of many interpretations   , someone shared with me long go and it helped 

Being locked up under the law that no human being  can keep  all the law  , the law was written  on two stone tables by the finger of God   and  was  being destroyed trying to keep   all the law   by all these   religious beliefs  and pagan  worshippers
Because the   carnal mind is an enemy against the Spirit  of God , this man  seeks to find truth in the world   and not   THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD  , the confusion by mixing   had this man looking for God among the dead / tombs , ones no better off than he was ..

4Though he was often bound with chains and shackles, he had broken the chains and shattered the shackles. Now no one had the strength to subdue him. 5Night and day in the tombs and in the mountains, he kept crying out and cutting himself with stones. 6When the man saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees before Him....     

  What torments the mind ?    The  weakness of the flesh   in the inability to change  our course  ,  Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD in power to change   one from violence   by mercy  , the law had always come  by violence till   John the Baptist

  taking it by force  as robbers and thieves  ,   when Jesus come He would finish  to work of God by Love and mercy and grace
  making   spirits of just men perfect/ complete   knowing the Love of God though mercy and great grace   
...   
Jesus Testifies about John
...11Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence, and the violent lay claim to it. 13For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John....

Matthew 3:15
"Let it be so now," Jesus replied. "It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way." Then John permitted Him.



Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.


Jesus was  going to bring in the new covenant of grace  by His own blood  shed as a  great covering for sin   by Gods grace

for the forgiveness of  sins   by His cross  with such violence  and sinners  against Him as we are to also   take up our cross and die to selfish ambition and  desires    and    give up the ghost ,,,  or that  spirit ruling in our hearts that has taken on many unclean spirits     dwelling in the heart and seat of   appetites   as anti -christ   ... 

  If it were possible  even the very elect would be deceived       Matt 24 ;24 The Abomination of Desolation
...23At that time, if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There He is,' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance....



  Hebrews 12 ...2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith,

who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners,


so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood....


Take up your cross the innocent/lamb    are silent before their accusers     and wait on the Lord  to raise them up   out of death  and violence   many times as a better resurrection  than in past times   as we practice   righteousness   
1 John 3
6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning./rebelling ./slandering .


No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.


7Little children, let no one deceive you:


The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.


8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.


This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil....Strong's G1228 - diabolos
διάβολος
Transliteration

diabolos

Pronunciation

dē-ä'-bo-los (Key)


Part of Speech

adjective
Root Word (Etymology)

From διαβάλλω (G1225)

Outline of Biblical Usage
prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely

a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,

metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God,

may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him    :sigh:

An  adversary    against God ..
  Peter was  told to   get behind the Lord   when He tried to keep Jesus from going to the   Cross  , it looked as if  it was   Gods will    that no one perishes  ,  especially Jesus  ,    but Jesus was sent to do just that     and the Lord said ,  For this reason I was sent , you are mindful of the things of   GOD but the things that be of men      ...

preserve   themselves    and have a  flesh and blood king to rule over them  , but flesh and blood has never inherited the things of God and never can   be so
   the Cross looked weak and  pitiful to the  outward appearance  of things , causing  even more unbelief and doubt   and failure  , but they did not understand the power of God by His own Spirit  to raise up Jesus Christ  in all authority    and now taking away    the  works of satan's power over mankind    , that   the covenant  of death was broken by the new covenant  of grace in  our Lord  JESUS CHRIST BEGIN TO RULE over all mankind      ..  from the beginning death had ruled   in the hearts of mankind  and a law of themselves    , till Moses and the law   was  the ministration    of death for those whom loved death and   died without mercy that never showed mercy    either   ,  exposing the hypocrisy   of pride   and respecter of persons  in the earth by violence  and hatred  and calamity ,  chaos  and  confusion and every evil work of their hands  under the sun , hidden in the  dark heart  of mankind  .

  Whom   killed  the called and chosen of God  as the law and prophets  died  by the violence  and lastly Gods own Son , there is no more  excuses  left  but  to wait upon but the Lord   Jesus Christ ,  the LIGHT HAS COME  ,  Himself and all those gathered  up  from the earth  into Him already as the Living Word   and His feet are   in the earth   teaching us   Truth by HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS Being the Light and  knowledge of Gods    Wisdom  to Shine in the darkness  and His marvelous    Light , there is no darkness  in Him at all  . everything is exposed by it   openly   shown to us .

  But it was made known to all whom believe in the power of Jesus Christ cross     that mercy and grace was given to those whom showed mercy and grace towards others    in the same manner it was   shown and given to them  openly  by the Light of HIS COMING  to us   whom hate  the darkness  and ignorance of not knowing the True and Living God  but to serve Him with a pure heart  towards God first and foremost  of love , full of mercy and every good work   ...
The Wisdom from Above     not the subtle beastly  wisdom     that causes  hurt and harm to the innocent .

13Who is wise and understanding among you?

Let him show it by his good conduct, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.

14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast in it or deny the truth.

15Such wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every evil practice.

17But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, accommodating, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.

  The tree of Life   are those eating its fruits and doing those things its fruits brings   from the HOLY SPIRIT   gifts  by the Father of lights and spirits    of just men  being made perfect  / completed     in Christ ...   

[rosered]

The logic in why I believe what I do is, religion teaches a concept of hell that people who believe in UR no longer believe, so why continue to believe in the concept of Satan the way religion teaches?

There are three things I no longer trust

1. religion
2. the people of religion
3. the words they speak

  Amen to that  :HeartThrob:
  pure region  undefiled ,  corrupted and ruined by Babylons  pomp and pride .     come out of Her my people !   so I can receive you into Myself   

  are to  help the fatherless and the widow    from Baylons   curses  and plagues     in my opinion

    made a widow  ,  has no husband ,  Jesus is to be our true husband , head and authority   over His own  Body /true  church 
  and fatherless are those whom do not  know our HEAVENLY FATHER    as their  true  and LIVING GOD

call no man father   Matt 23 Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
(Luke 11:37-54)

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2"The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensomea loads and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, 7the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of 'Rabbi' by which they are addressed.

8But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter.

15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You traverse land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes it sacred? 18And you say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'

19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes it sacred?

20So then, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the One who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the One who sits on it.

23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.

27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and every impurity. 28In the same way, you appear to be righteous on the outside, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' sins. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?

34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem
(Luke 13:31-35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch: very interesting.. about the adversary..

I'm very much into literal, whenever literal fits.. with sometimes a spiritual aspect or interpretation also. After all, the coming of Jesus was literal.. and that much most Christians agree on. :laughing7:

To me the angels - the Word seems to say are messengers.. the faithful messengers, being what we think of as angels. Because of the verse "left their first place", I think they, like humans have rationality and reasoning ability.

Now didn't God know potentially that thinking creatures can make choices?!

Then, according to the story, the seduction of Eve to disobey God's one rule, and so early on! Why didn't the first seduction to obey God's rule occur perhaps hundreds of years later.. and to one born some time after there was only the two!

Well, it's obvious, the Father wanted the effects of disobedience to be in all "pas"(?) "the whole".

He seems very orderly to me!

It's my theory rebel angels serve the top(?) purpose to speed things along! Having much more power, especially over the "air"... And more "global" reach, which I think of as being an important part of this - global, that is - of what I think of as God's truth and universal law proving drama. [Actually, the same story and portrayal, over and over, in every life, every age, every nation, etc, including "the whole" world.. global and collective, that sin ='s ruin. In this drama. (But God is the savior of all! All in heaven and Earth, being gathered into Jesus.

[rosered]

Anyway, Jesus would not refer to Satan as "the father of lies" NOR as "a murderer from the beginning" if he wasn't a specific entity.  If you are going to choose not to pay attention to "the" and "a" in these cases, then you may as well revert back to not believing that "all" means "all".  Therefore then... you don't believe in The Victorious Gospel of Christ.

Well... that's only if you choose this path, I guess.

I'm not trying to cause division, simply pointing out that it's absurd to think Satan is the "carnal mind".  How can the "carnal mind" flee from you if you flee from fornication?  Will your "carnal mind" just leave and never come back?  What about the parable about the strong man... is the "carnal mind" a man?  Did Christ (being the stronger man) merely defeat the "carnal mind"?  What about Judas?  Was he the only apostle who had a "carnal mind" (even though they hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet)?  Yet you say that the "devil" he had was only his "carnal mind".

There are probably millions MORE absurdities that take place other than the ones I've pointed out if Satan is merely the "carnal mind".

    Dear Jason ,
  Understanding    bible meanings   
  How  does    satan flee from you ?,
  Well if he represents  darkness ,  than when you draw to the Light / Christ    , he has to flee
     the dark and the works of darkness flees from the light
  turn on a light in a dark room and see if you can see the dark anymore .?  BAM instant light  ,  that is how you can  compare it   
  the carnal mind  dwells in the darkness  , ignorant of God totally GOD IS SPIRIT  ,  Carnal mind is the mind of a beast  ,  7 heads    are earthly kings on satans  head    with ten horns   , horn can be  powers to persuade        pertaining to or characterized by the flesh or the body, its passions and appetites; sensual: carnal pleasures. not spiritual; merely human; temporal; worldly: a man of secular, rather carnal, leanings.

  look what the still yet carnal do  here in   Pauls   babes are carnal still   1 Cor 3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ.

I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it.

Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere human beings?

1 Corinthians 2:6
Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom--but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment.16"For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.



Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming.

Hebrews 5:13
Everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness.


It is foolishness  to the natural    man , his mind cannot reason with Spiritual things at all   ,

  Thus the need for the mind of Christ

  I do believe the wrestling is between both minds and makes us unstable in all our ways     

  Definition of double-minded. 1 : wavering in mind : undecided, vacillating. a double-minded man unstable in all his ways. —James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Psalm 119:113
I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law.

James 1:7
That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

James 4:8
Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

  Still  in the world and  of it ,  we are supposed to be in the world but not of it ..

[jugghead]

IMO the purpose to having the mind of Christ is to think outside the box that religion puts all things.... and IMO; to put limits on anything keeps you from the infinite; that which has no limits

[Jason]

So who is Satan according to the Scriptures? The Bible teaches that Satan is the adversary or foe of every Christian. He is the initiator of sin in the Garden of Eden and he is the Antichrist which everyone fears will be a human being of super magnitude. He is the progenitor of false gospels along with being the progenitor of false teachers. He does not have the authority to do as he pleases as he is still under the authority of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not omnipotent nor omniscient and does not possess the ability to indwell a believer since the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. The Bible also portrays him as a defeated foe which has been judged and will be cast into the lake of fire for ages on the last day along with unbelievers. One grand scheme Satan has is to deny his own existence which, if successful, will free him up to do his work of deception.

Remember during the early years of the FBI when J. Edgar Hoover refused to believe the Mafia existed? His refusal to acknowledge their existence for many years allowed them to become very strong and well entrenched in many areas of society. So this is Satan's strategy also. If he can convince people he does not exist, he will become strongly entrenched in the world and not only the world, but in the church as well, where many are denying his existence already.

(Gen 3:14-15) And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: {15} And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Who was in the serpent? If Satan was the flesh of man then we have a problem. Adam and Eve were created in a pristine environment and were created pure themselves. Sin was not yet in the world but came in through an outside source. If Adam and Eve had the innate ability to sin, then we can charge God as creating them with sin in them already rather than them being created pure with the ability to sin, when sin was presented to them from an outside source. If Satan does not exist, did Eve hold a conversation with herself in the Garden of Eden? If she did, then what was the purpose of factoring in a serpent in the conversation? If you notice the content of verse 15, it speaks of an impending war, does this mean we are at war with serpents? The contents speaks of the coming war between Christ and Satan which will culminate on the last day when he is thrown into the lake of fire.

(1 Chr 21:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Did mere human flesh or a non-existent being provoke David? The usage of the name "Satan" in this verse and in Job 1 & 2 (12 times), Zechariah 3:1-2 (3 times), and Psalm 109:6 occurs these 17 times in the Old Testament as a Proper Noun. Okay, do you remember proper nouns from English 101? A proper noun is a noun which names or designates a particular or specific being or thing. Since flesh is not in view, and flesh is a thing, it must be a being.

(Job 1:6-7) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {7} And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Now where does the throne of God exist? In heaven or on earth? He is in heaven which means this episode in Job could not be flesh but has to be a supernatural being. If a mere mortal stands in the presence of God, they would be struck dead. Remember Moses who only got a glimpse of the glory of God? What would happen if a mere man stood in the presence? That would be instant death.

(Mat 4:1-10) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. {2} And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered. {3} And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. {4} But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {5} Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, {6} And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. {7} Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {8} Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; {9} And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. {10} Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Here is the narrative of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness. Notice the personal pronoun "him" used in verses 7, 9, & 10. The word "him" is the word "autw" (auto) which is the same word used 3 times. It is a personal pronoun, singular and in the dative case. The dative case may also be referred to as the case of personal interest. In the three instances above it is used to express to whom or for whom the action of the verb is done. So we see in the 3 verses the words "said" and "saith" which are two verbs denoting action. We can also plainly see that the devil is the recipient of the action of those verbs. If Satan does not exist, then who was Jesus speaking to? His flesh? Impossible because the grammar will not allow it. The words of Jesus were aimed right at Satan and because the dative is used in this case, he was speaking to another being. The three uses of "him" are also singular which means the words of Christ were aimed at a single person.

In verse 3 we have the same scenario with the same word except for one difference. This time the tempter came to Christ, "to him." So here the tempter was speaking to Christ which means, by the dative again, we have a dialogue taking place between two persons, Christ and Satan. Therefore, if someone wants to deny the existence of Satan, they must definitely cut the temptations of Christ out of their Bible.

(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

If Satan does not exist, then why is the Bible explicitly stating that Satan has a kingdom. The word "his" is the same word as we saw in Matthew 4 except this occurrence is not in the dative it is in the genitive case which shows ownership or possession. You see the personal pronoun is used here instead of the antecedent noun "Satan." The word "himself" is also a personal pronoun except this word is in the accusative case which normally shows who is the receiver of the action of the verb. Both "cast out" and "divided" are the verbs in question with "himself" as the receiver of the action. So here we see that if Satan's kingdom is divided or he casts himself out, his kingdom will fall. This language tells us we are dealing with a bona fide kingdom and not a mythological or medieval invention.

(Mark 4:15) And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

As soon as an unbeliever hears the word of God being preached, Satan has the ability to steal or cause this person to forget what they heard. His fallen angels will also do this type of work. No one knows how many angels rebelled with Satan but he has many.

(Luke 10:18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Now if Satan is a synonym for the flesh or doesn't exist, what person was up in heaven falling? The word "fall" is the Greek word "piptw" (pipto) which may also be translated "fall down, fall in ruins, fail, go astray, perish." This verse definitely speaks of the fall of a being named Satan. This verse could be speaking of Satan's being expelled from heaven or his fall in the Garden of Eden, but whatever it specifically points to, it reveals an actual personage involved.

(Luke 22:31-32) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: {32} But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The word "sift" here means to put through a great trial as Satan had desired to test Peter probably on the scale he tested Job. The words "desired to" are very strong in the Greek and signifies that Satan demanded to have Peter. The name "Satan" in this sentence is in the Nominative case which shows the subject of the sentence. Peter is not the subject here but Satan who comes and demands that Christ give Peter up to him for testing. Again, how then can Satan be the flesh or non-existent.

(Rom 16:20) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

In this verse "Satan" is in the Accusative case which means he is the receiver of the action of the verb. The verb in this case is "bruise" which means "smashing, breaking or shatter." These are all figures of what will happen to Satan on the last day.

(2 Cor 2:10-11) To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; {11} Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

The words "his devices" reveal to us that Satan's schemes or plots are real. The Corinthians were to forgive the man who sinned against God in 1 Corinthians 5 lest Satan takes advantage of them with one of his devices or schemes. The word "his" again reveals in personal pronoun form that this is a real person.

(2 Cor 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Paul is warning the people about Satan's schemes. One of the major schemes is that Satan will be transforming himself (middle voice verb) into an angel or messenger of light. He will come with all deceptive gospels to lead astray as many as possible. Satan here is in the nominative case which means once again he is the subject of the sentence. Satan exists according to this passage also.

(Rev 12:7-10) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. {10} And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Here is a straight forward portion of Scripture which gives some detail between the forces of Christ and the forces of Satan. If Satan does not exist, then who is Michael waging war against? Then who is being cast out of heaven? This surely cannot be speaking of some human who is clothed with flesh, since there is no flesh in heaven because it is a spiritual place. Not only was Satan cast out of heaven but also his army of demons.

(1 Pet 5:8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Here we see that the devil is our adversary and he comes in the manner of a roaring lion. The roaring lion is a hungry animal seeking prey and Satan sees Christians as prey although he cannot have us, he will do what he can to hinder us.

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

If Satan does not exist or is a synonym for the flesh, then who is the angel from heaven binding for a thousand years, which is figurative for the Sabbath Period? What human being can live for a couple thousand years?

(Rev 20:7-8) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Here we see the rest of the story which began in Verse 1. When Satan is to be loosed from his prison or his binding, then he will once again be given permission to roam free and deceive the nations in a final deception.  Satan has deceived many that he doesn't exist. He is deceiving the nations as you read this article.

(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

Here is the rest of the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say. Satan who deceived them will be cast (thrown) into the lake of fire to the ages of the ages. In the same breath, verse 11 speaks of the Great White Throne judgment of all the unbelievers. Then if Satan is the flesh or does not exist, who is getting thrown into the lake of fire before the great judgment of the unbelievers even begins?

(Isa 14:12-17) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Shining one, son of the dawn! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! {13} For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: {14} I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. {15} Yet thou shalt be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the pit. {16} They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; {17} That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

This passage of Scripture has been so falsely interpreted by the "Satan doesn't exist" crowd. They have applied this passage to Christ because it speaks of a light bearer. However, look at the rest of the passage and let us ask the following questions: Did Christ weaken the nations? Did Christ have a prideful heart and seek to exalt himself? Did Christ make the world a wilderness? Did He destroy the cities and have prisoners? These statements only apply to Satan and not to Christ.

Furthermore, Satan is a light-bringer, even if it's false light that he brings.  He brings the glory of the law, the ministration of death.  God caused Moses face to shine so that the people couldn't even look upon him.  Thus it is with Satan as well.  He is "O Shining one" who deceives people with his brilliance, miracles, etc.

He is also clearly Leviathan (and by extension also clearly Behemoth), that wicked piercing serpent (Isaiah 27, Job 41, Job 40).  God resists the proud.  His chief characteristic is pride.

But hey, he doesn't exist!... and for that matter neither do other angels (non-human messengers) such as Gabriel.  Tell Daniel and Gabriel that Satan doesn't exist.  Tell Peter, Paul and every other saint.  Tell Joseph, Mary, and Zacharias that the angel they saw doesn't exist.  They will tell you that you're Satan's property.  Tell Judas Iscariot that he betrayed Jesus Christ Himself of his own "carnal mind" and that Satan had no part in it.  Tell Daniel that he didn't see Jesus Christ, and that Gabriel didn't strengthen him.  Tell Daniel that Gabriel lied to him, and Jesus Christ did not come to aid Gabriel in his fight against the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" - Satan.

Also while you're at it, tell Mary Magdalene and the other Mary that they definitely did NOT see "the angel (messenger) of the Lord whose countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow" - who made the keepers shake in fear and become as dead men.

You see, there aren't any of these "angels", they definitely aren't "sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation."

After all, "dost thou think that I am not able now to call upon my Father, and He will place beside me more than twelve legions of angels (messengers)?" - such as Gabriel, and... right here, right at this moment is what Jesus Christ was speaking about - not humans slowly traveling to where He was (they appear like lightning, one second they are not there, and then they are the next second) - "yea, while I am speaking in prayer, then that one Gabriel, whom I had seen in vision at the commencement, being caused to fly swiftly, is coming unto me at the time of the evening present." - hmmm... but nooooooooooo, we don't believe in these angelic messengers of God, only men and God exist, definitely no Satan or angels...

"What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
    the son of man that you care for him?
7 You made him a little lower than the angels (messengers);
    you crowned him with glory and honor
8 and put everything under his feet."

Yeah, Satan's most prominent characteristic is pride.  God resists Satan (the proud).  Does the bible matter?  Is the "truth about the truth" insignificant? (most likely all of you have read books which aren't a version of the bible - the "truth about the truth about the truth").

[Jason]

Also I guess I didn't change the "everlasting part" in the very start of previous post, I obviously meant until God becomes All in All but missed that portion.

[Jason]

This Satan is the chief of the ways of God (meaning His crowning creation, or what should've been... maybe after he's cleansed in the lake of fire).  He that made him can make His sword to approach unto him.  - Behemoth, Piercing, Wicked Leviathan - is covered by the shady trees, hmm shady (corrupt) trees.  They cover him with their shadow (lies, ridiculous Hollywood garbage that makes it seem like there's no way he could ever exist, not to mention knowledge about words or simply translating things differently to cast doubt upon his existence).  They say he doesn't exist.  None is so fierce that dare stir him up.  His heart is as firm as a stone (he's set in his ways of pride/iniquity/vanity etc?).  "nether millstone the lower of a pair of millstones, as the type of something hard and unyielding," - plenty more of these types of descriptions in Job 40, 41 and Isaiah 27 CONFIRMS Leviathan is Satan.

If the Master had known what hour the thief would come, He wouldn't have suffered his house to be broken up.  Doesn't that say something quite astounding about Satan?  I mean, in the Genesis account it would seem that God did not know that Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil at first... (or was he just lying? no, He can't/won't lie).

I mean... it's so obvious that Satan is an actual evil angel...

[jabcat]

  [edited by Jason]  Does the bible matter?  Is the "truth about the truth" insignificant? (most likely all of you have read books which aren't a version of the bible - the "truth about the truth about the truth").

Jason, we make room here for more than one interpretation/understanding of scripture - within what is deemed "reasonable" bounds.  That's not always easy, but it's the moderators' jobs to assess and determine that.  That's why we encourage posting as IMO, I believe, as I understand, etc., rather than one person pushing their individual understandings on everyone else as absolute "fact" with no room for discussion other than "then you just don't believe the Bible", "you're not a believer", etc.  Please post as requested above, and that will leave room for others to respond without it turning into a "I'm right/you're wrong" struggle/unnecessary divisiveness and harshness.  Thanks.

[jabcat]

Thank you for your edit.  That will help us move forward.   :thumbsup:

[Jason]

Gotcha, but Jesus spoke with authority.  Given that I haven't actually heard God speaking to me (at least not clearly) everything I posted is all what I believe.  Sorry for posting it in such a manner.

[jabcat]

He did.  We're not Him.  And this is someone else's venue.  Thanks for understanding.

I know it's frustrating to strongly believe something, and then see others have such different understandings of what may seem so obvious to you/me/us (and conversely, them), etc..... and passion is a good thing.  But that's part of the imperfect human experience for us all I suppose (IMO  :LH:)

As I said earlier, I actually personally agree with what you're posting.  But that doesn't matter re: the specifics of posting.  It's just a proven formula that seems to work better (or at least preferred by those who run the boards) than what has occurred in the past here, and still does occur in many other places - arguing, insulting, name-calling, power struggling, "somebody's gotta win" every argument - that can occur if room isn't made for opinion/understanding. 

I've actually decided that from the next new member on, I'm going to send out a personal email at account approval to be sure and review the "First Post" section prior to making a first post.  It lays these things out there, including a statement that making a first post indicates agreement to abide by these forum guidelines.  Apparently people are missing it, as first posts are showing up in various places besides that particular "required" first post board.  So I'm taking responsibility for being sure folks are aware of that, and you're the last one that sneaked in under the wire ;)   :laugh: 

Thanks again, it's a process.  Onward and upward.   :dsunny: