why do animals suffer pointlessly ?...please help this guy I know

[darryl]

somebody I know and really care about drew my attention to this article and expressed to me that a loving God who ultimately saves every human would not allow innocent animals who are surely sentient beings (able to feel and sense things) to suffer pointlessly as they do. I'm  trying to help this person find the true God of love who saves all humanity as I believe He does but I am finding it difficult to come up with a cogent answer to the charge of God's pointless cruelty to animals. As UR's we believe human suffering has a purpose but what about all the terrible suffering of animals? e.g. battery chicken farming where these animals are raised in the most appalling conditions only to end up being cruelly slaughtered. 'Halal' slaughter whereby the animal has it's throat cut hanging upside down and the blood drains out of it while it's still alive and conscious(happens to billions of animals every year).The cruel manner of slaughter of cats and dogs in China for food...cruel owners of animals...animals eating each other in the wild...awful animal diseases  etc etc the list goes on.As an animal lover I find this argument against the goodness of God difficult to counter...I still believe God is good but must accept people like this guy I know finds it difficult to accept God's goodness because of this animal cruelty issue.
Anyway, here's the article (in italics) and it's very disturbing...please help me find an answer so I can help this guy I know believe that God is truly loving
The Bible doesn't say too much about why God created animals, other than to say he did, and gave mankind dominion over them (Genesis 1:26). Whatever his reasons, God obviously chose not to spare animals from pain and suffering. Why?
Human suffering vs. animal suffering
In many ways, the problem of animal suffering is even more problematic than the problem of human suffering, because many of the standard explanations offered for why humans suffer are worthless when applied to animals.
For example, Christians often say that humans suffer as a consequence of sin, and because we are all sinners. But the animals never sinned against God, and thus they should not be punished as if they share our guilt. They seem to suffer only as collateral damage in a conflict between man and God.
Other Christians say suffering must exist in order for humans to experience the full extent of free will, but what is free will to an animal?
And still other Christians reason that it's okay that humans suffer, because God will reward us eternally in heaven, but what eternal reward awaits animals?
Is God guilty of animal cruelty?
What is perhaps most alarming about animal suffering is just how many diseases and defects are endemic to specific kinds of animals. It's as if predation and accidents alone were not enough suffering, so God had to design specialized bacteria, viruses, parasites, and diseases to multiply the suffering of animals.
Take, for example, the Tasmanian Devil discussed earlier. Even at birth, poor design ensures that his odds of dying outnumber his odds of surviving. But those that do survive are more than likely to contract Devil Facial Tumour Disease, a fatal contagious cancer that causes large growths on the devil's face, making it difficult for them to eat or see, and putting the entire species at risk of extinction.
Why? What has this innocent animal done to offend God? Did its ancestors partake of the forbidden fruit? Does its suffering help to increase its faith? Or help it to experience the full extent of free will?
If God created this world for humans, why include the animals in our suffering?
Can we trust a God who abuses animals?
The fact that innocent animals suffer through no fault of their own should be very disconcerting to the faithful, for if God is willing to allow the innocent to suffer, why should we believe he will reward the guilty?
If the innocent are made to suffer without cause, then God cannot be benevolent, because a benevolent God would never allow suffering that wasn't absolutely necessary. The believer is in the unenviable position of having to explain why a good God has chosen to extend human suffering to innocent animals, and believers have come up with several justifications.
"Animals don't feel pain!"
17th-century Catholic philosopher René Descartes once argued that animals were just like machines, that did not feel pain because they did not have a spiritual mind (an idea that later became widely accepted).
Modern theistic philosophers like Michael Murray still argue that animals cannot feel pain at the same level humans do because they lack self-awareness (a highly controversial philosophy).

Professor Bernard Rollin disagrees, and facetiously recommends that anyone who denies animals feel pain should test their hypothesis by using a pair of vice grips to squeeze the balls of a large doberman.
While animals can't tell us directly that they feel pain, it can be inferred by their similar reactions to it. If you've ever accidentally stepped on a dog's toes or tail, you know they respond to pain. Animals vocalize their pain, they withdraw from it, and they will even change their behavior to avoid it. Animals can also experience the opposite of pain, like a dog who enjoys having his belly rubbed.
We can also infer that animals suffer pain because they share much of the same anatomy and neurological makeup as humans, and they even respond positively to the same pain relievers we use. These similarities make it obvious that animals do feel pain, and there are numerous peer-reviewed studies that have reached the same conclusion.
Speaking from personal experience, I once witnessed a dog get run over by a car. He laid there in the street, yowling in agony for several minutes (in much the same way a human would). I can't imagine looking at this dog and saying, "That dog didn't really experience pain because he has no soul!" or "That would've been significantly more painful had he been self-aware!" No matter the degree, that dog was clearly capable of suffering. And for all we know, not being self-aware may even make pain more confusing and stressful.
"Maybe animals go to heaven."
Many Christian theologians have already ruled out this possibility:
"Our souls are rational–theirs aren't–and ours are rational because they're spiritual, not material."
Catholic.com
"...if the word 'soul' is used to refer to an immortal soul that one day will inhabit heaven or hell, then no, animals may not be said to possess a soul. This is the only conclusion that can be drawn, respecting the instruction on the subject found within the Word of God."
ApologeticsPress.org
And the Bible does seem to segregate men from the animals:
Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
1 Corinthians 15:39
But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
2 Peter 2:12
So it doesn't seem to matter that a 40-year-old chimpanzee is much smarter and has suffered longer than a 3-day-old baby, if they both die, it's the human that goes to heaven, and the chimpanzee that "perishes."
But what if animals did go to heaven?

Just for kicks, let's imagine that' the case. This raises a lot of interesting questions, like: Do all animals go to heaven? Elephants? Horses? Apes? Chimps? Dogs? Cats? Snakes? Rats? Birds? Mice? Mosquitoes? Ants? Gnats? Plants? Amoebas? Bacteria? Or does God draw the line somewhere?
If single celled organisms are allowed into heaven, do all the cells that make up my body go to heaven? Or just the soul they hosted? (Because they have served me well, and I think they deserve a vacation from all my abuse.)
If single celled organisms are not allowed into heaven, how many cells must an animal have before it does qualify for heaven? 10? 1000? 1,000,000?
Or perhaps it's not a matter of cell count, but intelligence. If that's the case, is that 40-year-old chimpanzee worth more to God than the 3-day-old baby?
And what about ocean life? Do whales and dolphins go to heaven? How about fish? Even ugly fish? Like the anglerfish? Or do ugly fish go to hell? Does heaven have an ocean for these occupants? Or do they just float around us in heaven? Even the ugly ones? Because I don't want ugly fish floating around me in heaven.
What about extinct animals? Will heaven be filled with friendly t-rexs, pteradons, and trilobites?
And finally, even if all animals did go to heaven, no amount of heavenly reparations could ever change the fact that what God did to them was wrong. If a man murders a child, no amount of apologies or reparations will ever justify his murder, the act will always be wrong. Even if we come to forgive the murderer, that doesn't mean we think murdering children is okay — his actions were still wrong, and they forever will be. Likewise, even if all the animals forgive God for torturing them when they were not guilty, it will always be wrong for God to have done so.
Allowing animals into heaven may help us feel better about their suffering, but it's not Biblical, and it seems to raise more issues than it solves. And even if God did allow animals into heaven, it doesn't change the fact that what God did was wrong.
"Humans need animals."
The majority of animals don't need to exist to ensure human survival. If life was perfect for animals in Eden, God could've left most of them there after evicting Adam.
But even assuming humans can't exist without animals (and God was unable to design any other alternative), this still doesn't explain why God didn't just design all animals as herbivores, to limit their suffering (and constant fear of being hunted). It also doesn't explain why he would choose to inflict additional kinds of diseases upon them.
"Animals should just be grateful that God didn't make things worse."
There is a Calvinistic idea that animals, like humans, are basically deprived creatures that should feel lucky that God shows them any grace at all. But I would argue that God's benevolence obligates him to extend grace, especially to his innocent creations.
The argument of last resort
Finally, when all else fails, the believer can still claim there is an explanation, even if we don't know what it is. This reasoning sounds like this:
We do know that God is just and that when we get to heaven we will find ourselves in complete agreement with His decision on this issue, whatever it may be.
GotQuestions.org
This is like saying, "Never mind that God's actions seem nonsensical and cruel, just keep believing! And when you die, you'll find there really was a good reason for all those animals to suffer, just as there really was a good reason for God to allow children to be raped and murdered! There's no absurdity God can't explain away!"
As I've said before, if we accept that all nonsense can be explained away in the afterlife, then all religions become equally viable, since all their absurdities (the reasons we have come to denounce them) can also be explained away in the afterlife.
Conclusion
I can only imagine a couple scenarios in which one might justify the suffering of animals, but both are problematic.
1) Animals don't actually suffer. If animal suffering is an illusion, then God has mislead us with a deception. And why would God deceive us?
2) Animals deserve to suffer. Since animals can't intentionally do evil, the only plausible explanation is to suppose that before they were animals, they had the mental capacity to sin. But if animals don't have immortal souls, this doesn't seem very likely (and most Christians don't believe in reincarnation).
If God exists, he appears to be a sadist, for he creates suffering for no other reason than it brings him pleasure. God was not forced to design animals, or to give them the capacity to suffer, or to design predation or specialized bacteria or viruses or parasites... but he did.
Still... we don't know what we don't know, and God may have a good explanation. Assuming he does, he is still guilty of placing us in a deceptive environment, one that leads us to conclude he is evil, for only an evil creator would torture the innocent. We only know what we know, and what God has given us to know is a creation that that bares false witness against its "benevolent" creator, which again would lead us to conclude that God is malevolent.
If there is no God, the fact that animals suffer is nature's testimony to the fact that nature does not distinguish between humans and animal. Nature has no mind to respect one and curse the other, they are all the same.
Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals.
~Ecclesiastes 3:19

[darryl]

disappointed no responses so far...hmmmmm, maybe nobody else has an answer either :dunno2:

[sheila]

I have company right now..but plan on replying Darrel :friendstu:

[GodIsLove]

Present Suffering and Future Glory
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

My only answer is the passage above...in the new heavens and new earth there will be no suffering; if the whole creation waits and the whole creation will be delivered, I'm guessing that includes animals but we just don't know the details of how it will happen.

[darryl]

Present Suffering and Future Glory
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

My only answer is the passage above...in the new heavens and new earth there will be no suffering; if the whole creation waits and the whole creation will be delivered, I'm guessing that includes animals but we just don't know the details of how it will happen.

thanks...that does help.

[darryl]

I have company right now..but plan on replying Darrel :friendstu:

no problem !..I'm just getting a lil 'snippy' in my old age...a bit 'testy' !...impatient... lol !  its my birthday today, 64 years young !...

[rosered]

 its my birthday today, 64 years young !...

  Happy Birthday Darryl . :grouppray:

  I agree with  Godislove ....    our hope is in the newness of life   

   Many animal sacrifices were made under the old covenant law   :sigh:   

  I did not answer because I don't know   why either .
  But I loved my little  pomeranian  like a  member of the family  and many animals  over the course of  a life time  .

  Our hope it to see them again too  ,   I would think  , love holds no bounds

[darryl]

its my birthday today, 64 years young !...

  Happy Birthday Darryl . :grouppray:

  I agree with  Godislove ....    our hope is in the newness of life   

   Many animal sacrifices were made under the old covenant law   :sigh:   

  I did not answer because I don't know   why either .
  But I loved my little  pomeranian  like a  member of the family  and many animals  over the course of  a life time  .

  Our hope it to see them again too  ,   I would think  , love holds no bounds

tky tky for wishing me Happy Birthday , Rosered ! ...yes, its a milestone for me reaching 64 !....I never thought I'd get this old !..... :banana:...a day to be happy I guess n not worry about philosophy, theology etc etc....'animal cruelty' ? = probably not the best thread to put up on my birthday which is supposed to be a happy day !..yes, be nice if we saw our pets again in Heaven ! :dsunny:

[rosered]

tky tky for wishing me Happy Birthday , Rosered ! ...yes, its a milestone for me reaching 64 !....I never thought I'd get this old !..... :banana:...a day to be happy I guess n not worry about philosophy, theology etc etc....'animal cruelty' ? = probably not the best thread to put up on my birthday which is supposed to be a happy day !..yes, be nice if we saw our pets again in Heaven ! :dsunny:


  Well  if your dancing around like that Banana   !!!!!  I would sure say you are doing great for 64 years  young  bro , Hope it was a  :HeartThrob:   
beautiful day for you Darryl    and many more   God willing     :friendstu:     

        Rose

[Ross]

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

The abuse of these animals is indeed shocking. Life, if we look around us is shocking. I.M.O we have to go through this to expose the underlying principles which are motivating acts which cause serious side-effects.

The suffering of man has been pretty intense- wars, tortures, mass murders, raping, pillaging, theft, abuse, mental abuse.
Man can think, supposedly, yet does this sort of thing.
Cain killed Abel. That was pretty early in the piece.

Paul points out that the wisdom of man is foolish.
Also points out to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 15 that if the things of this age were what life is all about, then we should be pitied most of all.
He had mentioned earlier that the things of this age are temporary.

Isaiah also mentioned the coming creation being pretty good;

Is 65;17 " For behold Me creating New heaven and New earth, and the former shall not be mentioned,
                neither shall they come to heart."
Is 65;25 " The wolf and the lamb shall feed in unity, and the lion will eat straw like an ox.
                But as for the serpent, dust shall be his food.
                They shall not harm, nor shall they destroy in all My holy mountain, says Yahweh."

Man tries to blame God for everything, when man carries out actions which are perverse.
Unfortunately this person is blaming God. When a child makes a mistake can they blame their parents? Yet we try to blame God.
You would know all this Darryl, I'm sure. The challenge of convincing others is not easy. The simplicity of the truth is not always accepted.

[itivino]

Happy birthday Darryl!

I don't think animals suffer needlessly - I think they are being perfected just as we are, and that each individual one of them was designed and created by God. Just because He is our (humans') father doesn't reduce His beautiful relationship to the animals. Their suffering is undeserved, it is our fault they suffer, all the more reason there will be justice for them as well. The God of Jesus, the God of little children, loves the animals in a way we can't yet imagine.

It goes hand in hand with the UR I believe. To try to extrapolate God's plan for the animals from a couple few verses, completely arbitrarily and out of context of the rest of the Bible and Jesus, is just worship of the letter.

God doesn't waste anything, He doesn't create with one hand and wipe out of existence the same thing with his other. There is no reason to think animals have no soul, just that they have a different kind. Anyone who has one knows that animals are capable of loving - maybe it is out of instinct that they love, but love is also necessary to ourselves as well. It's not denigrating to say that animals only "love" out of "instinct" - love is necessary to our existence as well.

I think one reason they suffer because it teaches us to love those less than ourselves. It teaches us pity, and love towards our lower brothers and sisters which is absolutely necessary to our perfection. Not only do we have to love our brothers and sisters, but also our lower brothers and sisters. I think for many people, they begin by loving animals before they can love people, only because animals are much more lovable than people.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.--Romans, viii. 19.

George Macdonald has a piece on this in the Hope of the Gospel. God is childlike, and one thing is for sure, that children love animals. God does not care for suffering - he doesn't create for the sole purpose of suffering and misery, that comes from the same thinking as penal substitution, that God is satisfied by suffering.
http://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/hope-of-the-gospel/12/

"Be we have not to do with the dead only; there are those which live and suffer: is there no comfort concerning them, but that they too shall at length die and leave their misery? And what shall we say of those coming, and yet to come and pass--evermore issuing from the fountain of life, daily born into evil things? Will the consolation that they will soon die, suffice for the heart of the child who laments over his dead bird or rabbit, and would fain love that father in heaven who keeps on making the creatures? Alas, they are crowding in; they cannot help themselves; their misery is awaiting them! Would those Christians have me believe in a God who differentiates creatures from himself, only that they may be the prey of other creatures, or spend a few hours or years, helpless and lonely, speechless and without appeal, in merciless hands, then pass away into nothingness? I will not; in the name of Jesus, I will not. Had he not known something better, would he have said what he did about the father of men and the sparrows?"

[darryl]

Happy birthday Darryl!

I don't think animals suffer needlessly - I think they are being perfected just as we are, and that each individual one of them was designed and created by God. Just because He is our (humans') father doesn't reduce His beautiful relationship to the animals. Their suffering is undeserved, it is our fault they suffer, all the more reason there will be justice for them as well. The God of Jesus, the God of little children, loves the animals in a way we can't yet imagine.

It goes hand in hand with the UR I believe. To try to extrapolate God's plan for the animals from a couple few verses, completely arbitrarily and out of context of the rest of the Bible and Jesus, is just worship of the letter.

God doesn't waste anything, He doesn't create with one hand and wipe out of existence the same thing with his other. There is no reason to think animals have no soul, just that they have a different kind. Anyone who has one knows that animals are capable of loving - maybe it is out of instinct that they love, but love is also necessary to ourselves as well. It's not denigrating to say that animals only "love" out of "instinct" - love is necessary to our existence as well.

I think one reason they suffer because it teaches us to love those less than ourselves. It teaches us pity, and love towards our lower brothers and sisters which is absolutely necessary to our perfection. Not only do we have to love our brothers and sisters, but also our lower brothers and sisters. I think for many people, they begin by loving animals before they can love people, only because animals are much more lovable than people.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.--Romans, viii. 19.

George Macdonald has a piece on this in the Hope of the Gospel. God is childlike, and one thing is for sure, that children love animals. God does not care for suffering - he doesn't create for the sole purpose of suffering and misery, that comes from the same thinking as penal substitution, that God is satisfied by suffering.
http://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/hope-of-the-gospel/12/

"Be we have not to do with the dead only; there are those which live and suffer: is there no comfort concerning them, but that they too shall at length die and leave their misery? And what shall we say of those coming, and yet to come and pass--evermore issuing from the fountain of life, daily born into evil things? Will the consolation that they will soon die, suffice for the heart of the child who laments over his dead bird or rabbit, and would fain love that father in heaven who keeps on making the creatures? Alas, they are crowding in; they cannot help themselves; their misery is awaiting them! Would those Christians have me believe in a God who differentiates creatures from himself, only that they may be the prey of other creatures, or spend a few hours or years, helpless and lonely, speechless and without appeal, in merciless hands, then pass away into nothingness? I will not; in the name of Jesus, I will not. Had he not known something better, would he have said what he did about the father of men and the sparrows?"

great response !...thank you !...tky also for the birthday wishes !  :dsunny:

[darryl]

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

The abuse of these animals is indeed shocking. Life, if we look around us is shocking. I.M.O we have to go through this to expose the underlying principles which are motivating acts which cause serious side-effects.

The suffering of man has been pretty intense- wars, tortures, mass murders, raping, pillaging, theft, abuse, mental abuse.
Man can think, supposedly, yet does this sort of thing.
Cain killed Abel. That was pretty early in the piece.

Paul points out that the wisdom of man is foolish.
Also points out to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 15 that if the things of this age were what life is all about, then we should be pitied most of all.
He had mentioned earlier that the things of this age are temporary.

Isaiah also mentioned the coming creation being pretty good;

Is 65;17 " For behold Me creating New heaven and New earth, and the former shall not be mentioned,
                neither shall they come to heart."
Is 65;25 " The wolf and the lamb shall feed in unity, and the lion will eat straw like an ox.
                But as for the serpent, dust shall be his food.
                They shall not harm, nor shall they destroy in all My holy mountain, says Yahweh."

Man tries to blame God for everything, when man carries out actions which are perverse.
Unfortunately this person is blaming God. When a child makes a mistake can they blame their parents? Yet we try to blame God.
You would know all this Darryl, I'm sure. The challenge of convincing others is not easy. The simplicity of the truth is not always accepted.

thanks, Ross m8 !...gr8 response ! :dsunny:

[darryl]

tky tky for wishing me Happy Birthday , Rosered ! ...yes, its a milestone for me reaching 64 !....I never thought I'd get this old !..... :banana:...a day to be happy I guess n not worry about philosophy, theology etc etc....'animal cruelty' ? = probably not the best thread to put up on my birthday which is supposed to be a happy day !..yes, be nice if we saw our pets again in Heaven ! :dsunny:


  Well  if your dancing around like that Banana   !!!!!  I would sure say you are doing great for 64 years  young  bro , Hope it was a  :HeartThrob:   
beautiful day for you Darryl    and many more   God willing     :friendstu:     

        Rose

thx, Rose !...yes, it was a good day !...I'm in beautiful New Zealand atm having a gr8 time !...cheers !

[rosered]

       Dear itivino  !!

Amen ,   
  I find your thoughts powerful in proving Gods love for all His creation  , very uplifting    and  a merciful  truth .

How we treat the  animals    proves a lot doesn't it ? ..   being kind or cruel proves a nature in us working  of God or not of  Him , God is love   , animals show  every thing in  nature a human does  .

    but we were all as beasts before the Lord    Ecc 3 ...17

I said to myself, "God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man," for a time for every matter and for every deed is there.

18I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."

19For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same.

As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Blessings  always in the Lord , Rose 

thx, Rose !...yes, it was a good day !...I'm in beautiful New Zealand atm having a gr8 time !...cheers !

  Cheers Bro D! 
   You have an awesome place to Live , New Zealand  is breathtaking  by the pictures I have seen ,  the green  of living  things is glorious    , and   I am 60 not so far behind you   brother   lol , but within   my spirit    I feel     young and vibrant  of heart .

  truly      as the old   is pershing ,  the new   Life in Christ  takes root  within us ,  To Gods glory     and power  we can still  ever rejoice   in Him !!   :banana:     :dsunny:       

[rosered]

 
  Bro Ross , is correct in saying  ,

We cannot blame God for everything   done under the sun    . 
They want God to stop this cruelty  against animals and yet , not mankind ?   

I think  many are angry , because of sin  , Not God  , but want it to end   , anger is a part of  suffering  , that  can  destroy  any good  that  will come  ,    we must learn to pray for   Gods peace to come  , it surpasses  understanding  things  , His peace is what will sustain us   as we wait in the Lord   for answers .

Man and animals are not so far apart in nature    , satan is called a lion seeking to devour   .

  Not all animals are kind by nature  nor are humans ,  unfortunately  they are just as bad as a   wild animal that cannot be tamed   .
   If you ever seen and animal suffering in  great pain   they will attack  anything coming near them to  help   ease their suffering     , it is just the nature of the beast     

Animals often feed off of other lesser and weaker 
  I saw a cat with a mouse last  night and    it seems cruel   how they   are  , but it is nature taking its course   
  It does as it is instinctively   born to do .

ONly God can change the nature   to His  own  nature    or maybe his own nature is in there    and although the  body dies the  Spirit and soul belongs to Him   to make new in His   perfect creation that corruption cannot  touch , when     the all   surrounding peace of God makes everything at peace   within one another   

      Isaiah 11  5Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
            And faithfulness the belt about His waist.

      6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
            And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
            And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
            And a little boy will lead them.

      7Also the cow and the bear will graze,
            Their young will lie down together,
            And the lion will eat straw like the ox.

      8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
            And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den.

      9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
            For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
            As the waters cover the sea.

      10Then in that day
            The nations will resort to the root of Jesse,
            Who will stand as a signal for the peoples;
            And His resting place will be glorious.


  Sounds as if it is the Lord doing this   work  ,  making peace  with all His creation  with Himself and one another        a place of rest   for all that have suffered    in this life     and will forget the pain   , that is behind them   ,  with so much joy   in that  moment  it takes  root in Jesse ,,     Our Lord Jesus Christ  ruling His new    world   without  sin nor evil ever to enter  it  ever more ...
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

no problem !..I'm just getting a lil 'snippy' in my old age...a bit 'testy' !...impatient... lol !  its my birthday today, 64 years young !...

Happy late birthday!!  :banana: :banana: God bless!

I haven't read any of the thread yet.. was scrolling down to see how far behind I am and saw this.. Hope you had a very nice one.. :Peace2:

[marie glen]

this guy I know finds it difficult to accept God's goodness because of this animal cruelty issue.
Anyway, here's the article (in italics) and it's very disturbing...please help me find an answer so I can help this guy I know believe that God is truly loving

:Chinscratch: Surely it's because the creation is a whole.. So either the universe/the whole is healthy and perfect -- as a reflection of God's Perfection.. Or it's not healthy and is imperfect.. And I feel (pretty strongly) that God is letting imperfection run its course.. otherwise, if it's only half way, what will it prove?

And unfortunately, in reality, or logically, it would seem imperfection is a bottomless pit of potential.. With imperfection (surely?) you are bound to have oppressors, masters at cruelty, and all sorts of evil..

It's the nature of the beast as the saying goes.. metaphor, but the truth of it is very literally true.. The opposite of love as ruling force is for self concern and self interest to rule.. This makes me assume that it's of the utmost importance that all know, and learn, that the way opposite of love/God ruling, can never, ever work.. How to prove that without letting it run its course?

In other words, Creation is a whole. How will all learn good from evil unless evil is let to it run its course? -- which course, will prove to all and is writing upon every mind and heart that life cannot be lived -- life cannot be -- without God who IS life (surely?) -- but who is also Perfection. Making imperfection the opposite of life. And therefor always apocalypse, for every one of us, individually, but also collectively - creation being a whole. To avoid it all, God could have chose to never create rational creatures, who could think, reason, even make choices. :dontknow: Creation's a whole, how ya gonna separate and divvy it up somehow..? In the longterm, all the suffering will be as a moment - Also, being Life, God suffers it all! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[marie glen]

What a great thread! Amen to all of the above!!

This thread has taught and helped me realize how likely it is our animals and all animals will also be returned to life.. Because... they have suffered..

[Abigail]

My husband just finished washing out pus from our baby rabbit's inflamed eyes. Such things deal with us.

It is sobering to be confronted with this great responsibility God gave to us, to care for His creation. I believe God was serious when He gave the earth to mankind to have dominion over it, or, as I believe dominion means, to care for it and rule over it as good and righteous kings. When the kings fell, they took their kingdom with them, just as it did not go well with the people of Israel when they had an evil king. I think curses are a kind of spiritual laws that work like natural laws (consequences). When someone sins, that effects himself and the domain he has authority over. Even to the point that the creation itself is disturbed (earthquakes, changing natures of some animals etc.).

I just read in 'The Call' from Rick Joyner (translated back from Dutch):
"Wisdom turned to me and looked me straight in my eyes. He said: 'I love My creation. I love the beasts of the field and the fish of the sea. I will restore the things and make them as the were meant to be, but first I need to restore humanity. I not only came to redeem, but also to restore...' These words echo the beloved quoted verses from Romans 8. Makes sense, since when the kings will be restored, the kingdom follows.

[marie glen]

Amen, Abigail.. that was very nicely said..  :thumbsup: :cloud9:

[darryl]

       Dear itivino  !!

Amen ,   
  I find your thoughts powerful in proving Gods love for all His creation  , very uplifting    and  a merciful  truth .

How we treat the  animals    proves a lot doesn't it ? ..   being kind or cruel proves a nature in us working  of God or not of  Him , God is love   , animals show  every thing in  nature a human does  .

    but we were all as beasts before the Lord    Ecc 3 ...17

I said to myself, "God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man," for a time for every matter and for every deed is there.

18I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."

19For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same.

As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Blessings  always in the Lord , Rose 

thx, Rose !...yes, it was a good day !...I'm in beautiful New Zealand atm having a gr8 time !...cheers !

  Cheers Bro D!  1....cheers !
   You have an awesome place to Live , New Zealand  is breathtaking  by the pictures I have seen ,  the green  of living  things is glorious    , and   I am 60 not so far behind you   brother   lol , but within   my spirit    I feel     young and vibrant  of heart .

  truly      as the old   is pershing ,  the new   Life in Christ  takes root  within us ,  To Gods glory     and power  we can still  ever rejoice   in Him !!   :banana:     :dsunny:     

yes....New Zealand is very beautiful....I am originally from New Zealand, born in New Zealand,  but these days I actually split my time tween here and the UK ( I'm a dual citizen of both )  ...a good life !  :dsunny:

[darryl]

no problem !..I'm just getting a lil 'snippy' in my old age...a bit 'testy' !...impatient... lol !  its my birthday today, 64 years young !...

Happy late birthday!!  :banana: :banana: God bless!

I haven't read any of the thread yet.. was scrolling down to see how far behind I am and saw this.. Hope you had a very nice one.. :Peace2:

thanks, Marie...yes, it was a good birthday...64 is quite a milestone !...thx for your birthday wishes !

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: I'm almost right behind ya.. 63 in May..

[darryl]

:thumbsup: I'm almost right behind ya.. 63 in May..

woaaa !...well, we're all getting up there !...my Dad was 95 and a half when he passed n my Mum was 92...so hopefully I have a few years yet !...hehe :banana: