‘free’ will

[MHz]

The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:

Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.

Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:

When you make a post that is equal to calling me a fool and I have a 'sane reply' does the title of 'fool' belong in your corner of the debate?? Just curious.

As to your reply I believe I will go with what the translators said about how the 1611KJV came along rather than your version that has no references at all other than your own words. The qualifications needed to write the 4 Gospels was completed by the evening of the return and the gift of understanding all languages was given in Acts:2 so that is the earliest date the Gospels could have been written and Revelations was the last one at about 100AD based on they are the words of eye -witnesses. Free free to jump all over that topic.

THE TRANSLATORS TO THE READER
Preface to the King James Version of 1611

THE BEST THINGS HAVE BEEN CULMINATED

S. Jerome maketh no mention of the Greek tongue, wherein yet he did excel, because he translated not the old Testament out of Greek, but out of Hebrew.

Aquila, of whom we spake before, translated the Bible as carefully, and as skilfully as he could; and yet he thought good to go over it again, and then it got the credit with the Jews, to be called accurately done, as Saint Jerome witnesseth.

If you ask what they had before them, truly it was the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, the Greek of the New. 

I doubt very much that they were liars.

Your post makes one thing clear, you haven't read the preface to that Bible.

I have one more quote to make from that document.

[darryl]

The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:

Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.

Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:

Please   James H ,
    How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him  and was His friend ?
  I guarantee you Abraham had no   worldly wisdom , texts  and  textual critical scholar  teaching Him  about God .

   The Holy Spirit is our teacher as  well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way  Truth   and Life  , 
 

  We can learn from any   Bible if the Lord anoints you  to understand  it and opens its seals for you ..

knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies   , show some love bro  :HeartThrob:

i have so much in my head...head knowledge.............sometimes it needed to remind us not to get 'puffed up' with it all................love is the thing n the most hardest thing to 'get'......i wish i were more loving but im a work in progress, i guess.............love is really what its all about but people are hard to love, often/sometimes ?

[JamesH]

The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:

Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.

Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:

Please   James H ,
    How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him  and was His friend ?
  I guarantee you Abraham had no   worldly wisdom , texts  and  textual critical scholar  teaching Him  about God .

   The Holy Spirit is our teacher as  well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way  Truth   and Life  , 
 

  We can learn from any   Bible if the Lord anoints you  to understand  it and opens its seals for you ..

knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies   , show some love bro  :HeartThrob:

i have so much in my head...head knowledge.............sometimes it needed to remind us not to get 'puffed up' with it all................love is the thing n the most hardest thing to 'get'......i wish i were more loving but im a work in progress, i guess.............love is really what its all about but people are hard to love, often/sometimes ?

It's a work in progress in me as well. Sorry to all here if I went over the red line!

[marie glen]

 :HeartThrob: God bless!!  :cloud9:

[eaglesway]

NP James. Wasnt replying to anyone specifically.  :Peace2:

[rosered]

:HeartThrob: God bless!!  :cloud9:

  Ditto   sis Marie  :HeartThrob:    Love serves everyone well  , God is   the power of Love  that  everyone thrives on
What amazing grace  we have been given  to know  the Lord and are a part of His body of believers   .

1 John 4 Love Comes from God

7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God.

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9This is how God's love was revealed among us:

God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him....    :HeartThrob:

  Love is real , not some fake form of flattering , being real  , is  sharing the truth in love is   the greatest thing  ever  :dsunny: 

I believe this is Tentmakers goal  ,by sharing the UR  message  and  to hold the head /Jesus Christ , as the  scattered Body comes together in   perfect unity  in  the Love of GOD .

[marie glen]

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:   .... :cloud9:

[whatistruth]

I will briefly give you two examples.

+ A christian
- Other believer or godless

conversation 1

+ Jesus is God
- wait a minute. You said, "jesus is god's son"    which one ?
+ both
- How ?
+ I dont know. He is god. He is everything.
- I'm confused. you say, God is only one.   + Yes. But nobody can tell you that. God can tell you.God chooses and speaks people.
_Wait wait... I'm trying hard for long.  Why does God make sense of me? Doesnt he love me?
+ God loves everyone but god choose..
-wait... Why did not God choose me? +I dont know. We can not understand God.
- OK. I prefer to be in my own belief.  (or I give up. ) and I believe in my own creator why I want to know your God? Would you like to believe my creator while you your faith?
+ No. the believer will not even wonder other gods. faith requires that.
-Thank you. I don't want either.  Goodbye.

conversation 2

- You are constantly criticizing my belief. whereas in your belief, there are wars, famines, diseases and discrimination and heart harden up !
+ We can not understand God.
- but you are looking at us as blind believers. You say it's my responsibility because I didn't call the god. but when I search your god, I do not like and I have difficulty in understanding him. And many faithful Christians hated God because of what they read and see.
Muslims or other believer also see miracles and are connected more to their own god. your god pushes them more pagan.
+ I dont know. Just pray.
- I do. But God accepts the prayer of a Muslim too. How do I know that the sign that came to me came from your god?
+ I dont know.
- well... thank you. goodbye.

And many many examples...

I do not believe in free will. And I will never believe!!!

[rosered]

I will briefly give you two examples.

+ A christian
- Other believer or godless

conversation 1

+ Jesus is God
- wait a minute. You said, "jesus is god's son"    which one ?
+ both
- How ?
+ I dont know. He is god. He is everything.
- I'm confused. you say, God is only one.   + Yes. But nobody can tell you that. God can tell you.God chooses and speaks people.
_Wait wait... I'm trying hard for long.  Why does God make sense of me? Doesnt he love me?
+ God loves everyone but god choose..
-wait... Why did not God choose me? +I dont know. We can not understand God.
- OK. I prefer to be in my own belief.  (or I give up. ) and I believe in my own creator why I want to know your God? Would you like to believe my creator while you your faith?
+ No. the believer will not even wonder other gods. faith requires that.
-Thank you. I don't want either.  Goodbye.

conversation 2

- You are constantly criticizing my belief. whereas in your belief, there are wars, famines, diseases and discrimination and heart harden up !
+ We can not understand God.
- but you are looking at us as blind believers. You say it's my responsibility because I didn't call the god. but when I search your god, I do not like and I have difficulty in understanding him. And many faithful Christians hated God because of what they read and see.
Muslims or other believer also see miracles and are connected more to their own god. your god pushes them more pagan.
+ I dont know. Just pray.
- I do. But God accepts the prayer of a Muslim too. How do I know that the sign that came to me came from your god?
+ I dont know.
- well... thank you. goodbye.

And many many examples...

I do not believe in free will. And I will never believe!!!

  Ok   ..  :HeartThrob:

ONE  example of  experiencing  GOD  and everyone has a story to tell about God after they experience Him   , it is His story in us  working though  the void /empty place of not knowing  God  at all .

  We can only obey what we know right ?
what if we do not know anything yet about God ?

How  can we really know God  ?
I was 23 years old and did not know God   , but had heard about God my whole life  from   others   as a little child .

  But it did not concern me yet .
But in my pain and emptiness I cried out to God   and nothing come  from that ,what I could see at the time  .  :sigh:
My brother had died in a tragic accident   at 20   and could not understand why God would do that .
  I did not like Gods ways     because  I could not understand them at all .  all  I   saw was death and hate and loss , misery .
  But it was really , I could not  like my ways  towards God  in reality   :sigh:

I got worse  and worse   and hated  life  and become very  destructive    towards  myself and others  , I could not see Gods love for my own pain   and torment  and how ugly  it all seemed to be .
I did many stupid things   and become reckless   and  was not caring any more   about anything  .

  I was doing drugs and drinking  and had a bad wreck     , this end  was a new beginning for me , everyone has their own end of things and beginning of  new things   as God teaches us though our   own experiences    that we can share with others and hope they can relate to them in some ways   .

We all have bad things happen to us all the time   , we suffer though  learning what good and evil is    ,  and means to us as individuals    as well as  being able to empathise and sympathise with others     as a whole .  The sufferings of Christ  to do good and be hated for doing good  in a world that does not ''get you '' at all. :sigh:

We cannot  do that without  suffering ,  the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.  Who would ever help  if they did not understand pain  and loss ?

God sends messengers to help us  , His Spirit of Life is in people working His will  /desire to save us from more pain and torment and fear of death     .

My grandparents   showed me God though examples, I never  heard  them as much as I do right now  and they have been  gone from this world  for many years now ,   but it  is  still    what they did  for me at the time   that changed   the path , it was    show mercy to me when I   did not deserve it .     I thought is God really like this ?  loving me  when  I was still being bad  :sigh:

  I was so deep in my sinful state  and  death was all I could relate to  , when they  helped me  , when I did not deserve it  , but should keep on suffering    for my mistakes    , conviction   came though their Love for God    and me  both
  I than wanted to know more about this JESUS   THAT SAVES  US 

It was my mistake not knowing  GOD or believing in Him  before the time He come though  my grandparents   hearts , but was not my time yet  , Till God started somthing new   , I was born again right there  , in that moment  , when I realized God s Holy Spirit  was convicting me of sin with MERCY   !!

LIKE A FLOOD it come though me  and  washed away  my sin of unbelief     , that seed of faith had been planted in Love  in my heart , from that time on it has been a journey of ups and downs and all arounds    , but the Lord is faithful and never leaves us or forsakes us because once in your heart  He wants to stay    in you and finish what He started   ,
Everyone can have this same hope  living in them ,   but it is in our most weakest moments  His love begins to SHINE though the darkness   in everyone  whom  begins to see the Light   and in Gods timing everything will be made known , we have to wait on Him to do it       all    in us  each one according to   His desire  and order

  This is only  one of  millions of testimonies    of why we speak  of the faith of God  working in us    and though us     God will send   what we need,  when we come to the end of ourselves    and no longer want to   be ignorant about Him any more  and not know what is happening  to the world and what we can do to make all the difference  in the world  though faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST 
Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin   and calling you out of it  , into His  wonderful Life  and light  as we are chastened of Him and  taught of Him ,what  true righteousness means  to God  Our Holy Heavenly Father    and are comforted when we obey   the truth  in ways the world has never known before now .   

  I believe in Jesus Christ  whom is the LIVING ONE  among the dead       and the HOLY HEAVENLY FATHER  whom Jesus Christ will make perfect before  Him ,  that we can all glory  in the LIVING GOD  without ever  ending .

Because we Love Him now
whom first loved us without us knowing Him at all   .  We trust God will finish what He started long before we come to be
known   as we are  even now .:HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen, most (if not all) Christian Universalists do not believe in "free will" - the Eternal Torment gospel says God will not cross a person's 'free-will' and that's why the many (so many) will perish (or worse).

So my argument with them - or one argument with them, would be.. How can it possibly be a 'free-will' choice for them if they do not have all the details?!? :eek: Isn't a 'free-will' choice, one in which the person fully understands all aspects of the choice they are making?

So although we are surely(?) not robots or a mere ant farm, but are in the image of God and able to think and reason.. The Word of God plainly says "God chooses" who will come to believe during this lifetime. And "He is a righteous judge"! How can it be possible He would condemn anyone, let alone millions when "no one comes to Jesus unless the Father allows it"!?

If, anyone is 'punished' after this life.. it cannot last "forever". That, to me, is the number one rebuttal to the ET idea (i.e., gospel). Yes, sin destroys - but not 'for ever'! I believe most, if not all who were not saved before they die, will "repent" upon Judgment 'Day' (Universal 'Day' Of Atonement, imo. In Israel days, it was a collective/national day of repentance and reconciliation.)

"How shall they believe unless they are told?"
:HeartThrob: God bless you, Whatistruth.. :gsmile: And amen, Rosie!

[rosered]

Amen, most (if not all) Christian Universalists do not believe in "free will" - the Eternal Torment gospel says God will not cross a person's 'free-will' and that's why the many (so many) will perish (or worse).

So my argument with them - or one argument with them, would be.. How can it possibly be a 'free-will' choice for them if they do not have all the details?!? :eek: Isn't a 'free-will' choice, one in which the person fully understands all aspects of the choice they are making?

So although we are surely(?) not robots or a mere ant farm, but are in the image of God and able to think and reason.. The Word of God plainly says "God chooses" who will come to believe during this lifetime. And "He is a righteous judge"! How can it be possible He would condemn anyone, let alone millions when "no one comes to Jesus unless the Father allows it"!?

If, anyone is 'punished' after this life.. it cannot last "forever". That, to me, is the number one rebuttal to the ET idea (i.e., gospel). Yes, sin destroys - but not 'for ever'! I believe most, if not all who were not saved before they die, will "repent" upon Judgment 'Day' (Universal 'Day' Of Atonement, imo. In Israel days, it was a collective/national day of repentance and reconciliation.)

"How shall they believe unless they are told?"
:HeartThrob: God bless you, Whatistruth.. :gsmile: And amen, Rosie!

  Amens sister Marie ,  just don't know   GOD    yet , in Gods time .......right !!   wait on the Lord
Each in his own order GOD  calls  us up out of death .....

  :dsunny:   LOVE /GOD never fails    :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

:banana: I found the absolute proof for free will  :banana:

:friendstu: We are all written freely in the will and Testament of Christ  :declare:

[jugghead]

For me, I can believe in "free will" in only one way and that way is:

If God gave us the authority to have a free will, the only thing I see accomplished by free will is that we were given the ability to "not believe" God, and in the same way "not believe" the truth

which by this "free will" ..... it can only cause our death in "unbelief"

of course this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me

I myself, see it as God wanting us to relinquish "give up" this ability to choose to "not believe", choose to cause our own death

my  :2c:

[marie glen]

  Amens sister Marie ,  just don't know   GOD    yet , in Gods time .......right !!   wait on the Lord
Each in his own order GOD  calls  us up out of death .....

  :dsunny:   LOVE /GOD never fails    :HeartThrob:

Amen sister!  :cloud9: :HeartThrob:

:banana: I found the absolute proof for free will  :banana:

:friendstu: We are all written freely in the will and Testament of Christ  :declare:

     :gimmefive: :thumbsup:

For me, I can believe in "free will" in only one way and that way is:

If God gave us the authority to have a free will, the only thing I see accomplished by free will is that we were given the ability to "not believe" God, and in the same way "not believe" the truth

which by this "free will" ..... it can only cause our death in "unbelief"

of course this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me

I myself, see it as God wanting us to relinquish "give up" this ability to choose to "not believe", choose to cause our own death

my  :2c:

    :Chinscratch: That must be true.. otherwise we'd all believe from birth! Wouldn't we..? :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

IMO the issue of where our wills begin and end as God conforms us to the image of Christ and brings us into the glorious liberty of the children of God is too nuanced to be capsulized in simple tereems like "fr will". What does free mean? where are the limits of freedom? Is it possible to be free within limits?

Is it possible that freedom grows with responsibility in the stewardship God gives ?

I believe so. To the one unto whom much is given much is required.

When is the will of a person completely free?

IMO thats an easy question- when they are perfected in love. The one who is perfected in love is totally free. When John heard the voice of God it was as the "rushing of many waters. Is the water that pours over a waterfall free? Well there are two ways to look at that. The water is free to flow and fall with the river it is rushing out  into space.

This why freedom from the fear of death is so wonderful.

Is the water in a pond as free as the water in a river or a fountain or a waterfall? perhaps. It is a matter of function and purpose.

I believe freedom is the end result of love perfect love. For frem Christ has set us free. The one who the Son sets free will be free indeed(in full reality).

The tiny theological boxes through which this issue is discussed generally is the reason why a phrase like "free will" has become such a hot button issue. What does it even mean? How can it describe such an expansive range of concepts and paradigms?

It can't as far as I am concerned, but that does not mean I do not recognize freedom as an importance essence of what we are being taught by the Holy Spirit- breaking us out of our theological boxes, haelpings us to see how we are going to set the whole creation free from futility(Rom 8).

"The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you dont kno where it is going or from where it comes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit"....... Sounds pretty free to me ;o)

[darryl]

The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:

Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.

Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:

Please   James H ,
    How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him  and was His friend ?
  I guarantee you Abraham had no   worldly wisdom , texts  and  textual critical scholar  teaching Him  about God .

   The Holy Spirit is our teacher as  well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way  Truth   and Life  , 
 

  We can learn from any   Bible if the Lord anoints you  to understand  it and opens its seals for you ..

knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies   , show some love bro  :HeartThrob:

i have so much in my head...head knowledge.............sometimes it needed to remind us not to get 'puffed up' with it all................love is the thing n the most hardest thing to 'get'......i wish i were more loving but im a work in progress, i guess.............love is really what its all about but people are hard to love, often/sometimes ?

It's a work in progress in me as well. Sorry to all here if I went over the red line!

no need to apologise, brother....we're all on the Journey !  :dsunny:

[whatistruth]

I know we have the ability to make a choice. But we do not create environments. And many things... I just do not believe in theology that holds people responsible for everything.
Briefly, I do not believe in the concept of free will other than universalism. (Some little)
And I love you all my sisters and brothers.  :HeartThrob:

See you soon.

[rosered]

  Amen   John ,  :thumbsup:
Free to Love as we should   God first and everyone  in the same   way without  fear and torment of  failure  .
  God knows in our weakness   , He alone is our strength .
Without Him we will do  nothing  , but boast in great things , but unable to accomplish  anything  .

  I have always considered it  ,   It is what God is doing for all , though  the Lord Jesus Christ , not what we do for him .

Paul planted and considered it nothing  as Apollos waters as nothing , but our duty and joy    to share  in the LOVE OF GOD  as a reward  of being a faithful  witness  also  . like those before us , to Gods glory in the earth .

It should be our joy   and good pleasure to  serve the Living God   with a pure heart  towards Him as doing everything as unto the Lord  Himself  !
Not loosing sight of Him in everything done  under the Son , Our Lord Jesus Christ .

  I cannot emphasize it enough  , with fear and awe of how we handle the Word of Life   .  We have  so great a cloud of  witnesses  !

1John 1;1 The Word of Life
(Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23)

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life.

2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us.


And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write these things so that our joy may be complete.


5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light,

and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.


7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.   

  Jesus  Christ working   is us   righted  from wrong  and death to Life and    truth from error  and Light from the darkness   and knowing good from evil and walking in the Spirit
 
from lying down in  the grave of wickedness   , to rest in hope and   from a prison  , to freedom in Christ .

[Andrew]

This is the translation from the message bible

"And I,as I am lifted up from the earth, will attract everyone to me and gather them around me. He put it this way to show how he was going to be put to death"



I just want to be sure of something. He's not just talking about the people who showed up at the Crucifixion is he? I know it may sound like a dumb question but I just want to be sure.   

[marie glen]

This is the translation from the message bible

"And I,as I am lifted up from the earth, will attract everyone to me and gather them around me. He put it this way to show how he was going to be put to death"



I just want to be sure of something. He's not just talking about the people who showed up at the Crucifixion is he? I know it may sound like a dumb question but I just want to be sure.   

  :mshock: Good point!! I never thought of that interpretation before! That He was referring to those who gathered to the cross as He was upon it.. And truly, I have to say, it makes as much sense and logic as the idea that "attracting/drawing all to Him" somehow doesn't mean "all"..

As we can see - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm - the word "all is - #G3956 - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm -

"pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole, every kind of
Definition: all, the whole, every kind of" // (sometimes, every kind of)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I believe God never made 2 plants or 2 animals, planets or 2 anything the same... Diversity is obviously important. Jesus chose his disciples because of who they were...son of thunder, the beloved and so on... individuality is cool.
It sounds like a contradiction to say this but we all come together as one...we all march to heaven together or not at all.
We all stand together.
It's all love.
:dsunny:

Amen!! He "is love"! And "Love never fails"! One body, one church..

Free will is an unbiblical term and no one will have a completely free will until the restoration of all things is complete in them. This is the glorious liberty of the children of God. "For freedom Christ has set you free"...".The one who the son of man sets free will be free indeed"..."you will know the truth and the truth will make you free"

Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Neither are we completely without the exercise of our wills, because God is raising children, training sons and daughters and raising faithful stewards. It is a learning process and freedom is granted as maturity deepens.

"If anyone will be my disciple let them deny themselves(say "No" to their own will) and pick up their cross(say "Yes" to God) and come follow me.

Injecting the polar extremes of Calvinism(man has no will) and Arminianism(man's will is inviolable) into any discussion leads to fruitless, endless confusion.

Common sense approves a more moderate view in between the extremes and when people tell you not to listen to common sense they are really telling you to forsake wisdom for their precious doctrine.

That was amazing!!!  :ty:

    :iagree: Amen!

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:  :laugh:  :banana:  :LH:

[marie glen]

 :laugh2:

         ..I thought of you in upstate NY when I passed through last month.. :Peace2:

[GodIsLove]

:laugh2:

         ..I thought of you in upstate NY when I passed through last month.. :Peace2:

I'm in upstate NY too! Ithaca

[eaglesway]

Just down the road in Binghamton.