Jesus started to be the savior/Christ at.....?

[WhiteWings]

When did Jesus became the Messiah, Christ, Savior.
a] At the very start of creation?
b] He always was, even trillions of years before theFather started in Gen 1:1?
c] When He was born on earth?
d] When His ministry started?
e] When He was resurrected?
f] When He ascended to heaven?
g] Just after He destroyed the forces of evil and raises the death as described in Revelation.
h] Some other time?

:hithere:

[marie glen]

My first reaction was to think b.. But! That is His Sonship.. So, I'm thinking A, "at the foundation/beginning of the world", after all the Father alluded to Him as savior in Genesis 3 after Adam and Eve's disobedience, although it seems obvious to me, the Father planned it, not like it was some spur of the moment thing.. Or a reaction, as if something occurred which took Him by surprise. :laughing7:

A good question, love a quiz, hope I got it right.. :thumbsup:

[Ross]

English is a diverse language at times.
I.M.O the position was planned when the earth was being planned;
but the fulfilment of that position was when Christ presented the blood before the throne in heaven- [Heb 9;24]
Christ held the Jews back from following Him because He knew He had to be sacrificed for us, otherwise the Jews would have wanted Christ to lead them against the nations by force; totally opposite to true love.
The concept of sacrifice had to be learnt so as to appreciate the whole process.
The law had to be there as a temporary guide to acceptable behaviour.
This all setting up the need for true love which excels beyond attempted/fake love.
All a master plan made whilst there were angels/heavenly beings already created. Then Hebrews 1 explaining how Christ was made lower than angels, like we currently are, but raised above angels, like we will be in the glorious future. Even the angels did not know about this [ Eph 3;10].
Exciting that the coming world is not subjected to angels Heb 2;5- and we will be there with Christ, in Christ, as joint heirs to this glorious age.

[marie glen]

    :Chinscratch: I think I'll change my answer to f.  :gsmile:

but the fulfilment of that position was when Christ presented the blood before the throne in heaven-

..I agree about the planning too.. and the rest..

English is a diverse language at times.
I.M.O the position was planned when the earth was being planned;
but the fulfilment of that position was when Christ presented the blood before the throne in heaven- [Heb 9;24]
Christ held the Jews back from following Him because He knew He had to be sacrificed for us, otherwise the Jews would have wanted Christ to lead them against the nations by force; totally opposite to true love.
The concept of sacrifice had to be learnt so as to appreciate the whole process.
The law had to be there as a temporary guide to acceptable behaviour.
This all setting up the need for true love which excels beyond attempted/fake love.
All a master plan made whilst there were angels/heavenly beings already created. Then Hebrews 1 explaining how Christ was made lower than angels, like we currently are, but raised above angels, like we will be in the glorious future. Even the angels did not know about this [ Eph 3;10].
Exciting that the coming world is not subjected to angels Heb 2;5- and we will be there with Christ, in Christ, as joint heirs to this glorious age.

   :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Just throwing in some idea's to muddle the water...  :laugh:

An animal lamb atones for sins when it dies. But has to be perfect to be accepted. That would rule out anything before His death. But...

Rev 13:8 ..... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Resurrection is  a gift from God. Something Jesus earned but not do Himself.

Ross is right about sprinkling blood in heaven. But is that when He became the Savior? The sprinkling was indeed part of the atonement. But it wasn't done by Lamb-Jesus but by Priest-Jesus.
Is Jesus playing (at least) two roles that should not be mixed up to find the correct answer?
Who saves? The lamb that dies or the priest that sprinkles?

God may have made a plan trillions of years before Jesus walked this planet. God even back then knew the outcome with 100% certainty. But does that really count? King David never was called king until he actually was king. The Apostles weren't apostles  by birth but became so at much later age. God gave some major OT figures a new name, but before that time they were always referenced to with their old name/title.

[rosered]

This had me going ... 
  1 clue is , Because the name Jesus Christ is a  earthly name  , there is no name under heaven  that salvation can come though .
2  clue is the WORD of God made flesh   ,,
3 clue  I have considered the words of Paul testimony  , that in the 3rd heaven  these words were unlawful   for a man to utter /speak of ,, so it is  speaking of the heavenly  language of   angels  ministering spirits

  and the 4 clue
Being   King &   High Priest
     Melchizedek   

  Hebrews (chapters 5,6, and 7)

First being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abides  a priest continually.

So it  is   without beginning or end   like a circle  of life or the wheels within the wheels   duality  creating the sparks that fly .    what was hidden within the wheels as the outer wheels   create the sparks of movement  book of  Ezekiel  ,  the son of man and the son of God    both in motion   , which is very hard to comprehend  without the Holy Spirit teaching .

Gods consuming fire  of jealous love /law     No other gods before Him , placing all  glory  in His one of a kind Son , Son of God , till God be all in all .

Revelation of Jesus Christ   , Alpha & Omega   the beginning and end   , the first and the last  , perfection / completion the circle  of Life   Galilee = "circuit, district"
cir·cuit
ˈsərkət/Submit
noun
1.
a roughly circular line, route, or movement that starts and finishes at the same place.
"I ran a circuit of the village"
synonyms:   lap, turn, round, circle
"two circuits of the course"
2.
an established itinerary of events or venues used for a particular activity, typically involving public performance.
"the alternative cabaret circuit"
verb
1.
move all the way around (a place or thing).
This where  Jesus promises to meet  Him in Galilee  in his return

The derivations of this verb are:

The masculine noun גיל (gil), meaning rejoicing (Psalm 45:16, Isaiah 16:10).
The feminine noun גילה (gila), also meaning rejoicing (Isaiah 65:18).
The masculine noun גיל (gil), meaning a circle or age. The phrase בן גילו (ben gilu) literally means 'son of circle' and denotes someone born at the same time, contemporary.


To me it is hidden from mans sight    , his own understanding  or wisdom  and only  the Spirit of Christ knows  , by the Spirit of God /Father  working in   a man  and just begins to scratch the surface   

Just throwing in some idea's to muddle the water...  :laugh:

  You got that right bro   , just like the angel of the Lord stirring up The Pool of Siloam (Hebrew: בריכת השילוח‎, Breikhat Hashiloah) was a rock-cut pool on the southern slope of the City of David, /Bethesda  ,

so whom ever  desires to be in  that pool can be healed  when dipped in it .....   

The fifth chapter of the Gospel of John describes such a pool in Jerusalem, near the Sheep Gate, which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. It is associated with healing.

  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  I personally believe this   Revelation or unveiling of Jesus Christ in the earth has been going on since He   died  at the cross , rose up in GLORY   to become the Lord  master of the dead and the living   to sit  at the right hand of the Father 
  and comes down when ever GOD THE FATHER  calls   the Word  to Life   in anyone  , like a thief in the night .. these are the mighty works of the Living God .

  no man knows  nor the angels  , but the Father only ...  Mark 13
  31Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

32But as for that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

33Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come....

  Word judges you on the last day

  John 12 ...47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them,
I do not judge him.

For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:

The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

Gods word will not return to Him Void/but Living to GOD , THE LIVING GOD


Isaiah 59:21
"As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."


It Is real   truth More  scripts  that testify of  Him 
it is  so important to  understand the change  , the old heavens and earth must pass away first  , before the new  heavens and earth  begin new  in the twinkling of a eye    , that is fast!!!! 1 Corinthians 15:52: We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.   all , not some or a few but ALL   , Because if one can believe Jesus   WORD by the Fathers Spirit , we can begin to rest in this great hope  , He is our true rest ,  as it is  going to happen  Just as He said it   did , does  and will happen .

Jer 10 The Sovereignty of God
...9Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish, And gold from Uphaz, The work of a craftsman and of the hands of a goldsmith; Violet and purple are their clothing; They are all the work of skilled men.

10But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
11Thus you shall say to them, "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens."...

Genesis 21:33
Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God.

1 Samuel 17:26
Then David spoke to the men who were standing by him, saying, "What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should taunt the armies of the living God?"

1 Kings 8:60
so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no one else.

Psalm 10:16
The LORD is King forever and ever; Nations have perished from His land.

Psalm 29:10
The LORD sat as King at the flood; Yes, the LORD sits as King forever.

Psalm 42:2
My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?

Psalm 68:8
The earth quaked; The heavens also dropped rain at the presence of God; Sinai itself quaked at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Psalm 76:7
You, even You, are to be feared; And who may stand in Your presence when once You are angry?

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Isaiah 40:15
Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket, And are regarded as a speck of dust on the scales; Behold, He lifts up the islands like fine dust.

In awe of  THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD a feeling of reverential of the nature of, due to, or characterized by reverence.respect mixed with fear and  wonderment .

[marie glen]

Just throwing in some idea's to muddle the water...  :laugh:

An animal lamb atones for sins when it dies. But has to be perfect to be accepted. That would rule out anything before His death. But...

Rev 13:8 ..... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Resurrection is  a gift from God. Something Jesus earned but not do Himself.

Ross is right about sprinkling blood in heaven. But is that when He became the Savior? The sprinkling was indeed part of the atonement. But it wasn't done by Lamb-Jesus but by Priest-Jesus.
Is Jesus playing (at least) two roles that should not be mixed up to find the correct answer?
Who saves? The lamb that dies or the priest that sprinkles?

God may have made a plan trillions of years before Jesus walked this planet. God even back then knew the outcome with 100% certainty. But does that really count? King David never was called king until he actually was king. The Apostles weren't apostles  by birth but became so at much later age. God gave some major OT figures a new name, but before that time they were always referenced to with their old name/title.

oh no! I may have to change my answer again! :doh: :thinking: I've highlighted the clues  :Chinscratch:
but I still don't know.. "Jesus savior of the world.."

I personally believe this   Revelation or unveiling of Jesus Christ in the earth has been going on since He   died  at the cross , rose up in GLORY   to become the Lord  master of the dead and the living   to sit  at the right hand of the Father 
  and comes down when ever GOD THE FATHER  calls   the Word  to Life   in anyone  , like a thief in the night .. these are the mighty works of the Living God .

Wow! Love that Rose!  And great post and verses..

For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should taunt the armies of the living God?"

   I've always loved that line!! :laugh2: :Peace2:

[rosered]

  Thank you Sis Marie , you are always so kind and inclusive , I so love that about you  :HeartThrob:

  You have such a big heart  sis  :girlheart:

 

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2018, 08:53:12 AM
Just throwing in some idea's to muddle the water...  :laugh:

An animal lamb atones for sins when it dies. But has to be perfect to be accepted. That would rule out anything before His death. But...

Rev 13:8 ..... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Resurrection is  a gift from God. Something Jesus earned but not do Himself.

Ross is right about sprinkling blood in heaven. But is that when He became the Savior? The sprinkling was indeed part of the atonement. But it wasn't done by Lamb-Jesus but by Priest-Jesus.
Is Jesus playing (at least) two roles that should not be mixed up to find the correct answer?
Who saves? The lamb that dies or the priest that sprinkles?

God may have made a plan trillions of years before Jesus walked this planet. God even back then knew the outcome with 100% certainty. But does that really count? King David never was called king until he actually was king. The Apostles weren't apostles  by birth but became so at much later age. God gave some major OT figures a new name, but before that time they were always referenced to with their old name/title.

  Good stuff , Bro T , always good too see you posting again and over it  :laughing7:


    Bro Ross is  on it !!! :banana:

[Dandelion]

I believe we all began whenever it was that God thought to make us. I also think it is very likely that we have been in God's thoughts for eternity. We are a part of Him, made in His image and likeness.

I believe Jesus was always a part of the Father, and I believe He is eternal. I do believe in the Trinity, not because of roles, needs, or titles, but because God is Love, and in this Love, the three persons exist in a union, that I believe we could not understand, here on earth. A union so connected, that in that connection, their love is so deep and encompassing, that each gives the other the honor of being equal in this loving connection. Superiority is a relationship that can bring disharmony. There may be different roles, but if each is not respected and loved and thought of as an equal, it can open the door for difficulties. I believe one of the reasons that God created marriage was to have a visible demonstration on earth of how love that respects and holds the other up, as an equal, can transform people, and the world, at large. We also, sadly, needed to see what happens when that does not happen in a marriage and the toll it can take on the people involved, as well as in society. Just like the model of the Trinity, love can bind us together and make us one in heart. Of course, despite even in the best example of family, only God can perfectly orchestrate this type of oneness.

That is one of the reasons I so believe in UR. I don't believe God loves any of us more than another. Not in the purest sense. We might have different roles, but I believe in His mind, we are all equally cherished.

I believe that God having a son was part of the plan of Redemption from eternity, as God knew what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus birth and mission was foretold in the Old Testament, for generations. Even in the Garden, after the apple incident, Jesus' role was foretold.

So, my vote is from Eternity for God, and from the beginning of time, down here.

My  :2c:

BTW, you guys and gals are doing an amazing job with this question!

D.

[marie glen]

  Thank you Sis Marie , you are always so kind and inclusive , I so love that about you  :HeartThrob:

  You have such a big heart  sis  :girlheart:

 

..thank you dear, you're such a sweetheart! :cloud9:

I believe we all began whenever it was that God thought to make us. I also think it is very likely that we have been in God's thoughts for eternity. We are a part of Him, made in His image and likeness.

I believe Jesus was always a part of the Father, and I believe He is eternal. I do believe in the Trinity, not because of roles, needs, or titles, but because God is Love, and in this Love, the three persons exist in a union, that I believe we could not understand, here on earth. A union so connected, that in that connection, their love is so deep and encompassing, that each gives the other the honor of being equal in this loving connection. Superiority is a relationship that can bring disharmony. There may be different roles, but if each is not respected and loved and thought of as an equal, it can open the door for difficulties. I believe one of the reasons that God created marriage was to have a visible demonstration on earth of how love that respects and holds the other up, as an equal, can transform people, and the world, at large. We also, sadly, needed to see what happens when that does not happen in a marriage and the toll it can take on the people involved, as well as in society. Just like the model of the Trinity, love can bind us together and make us one in heart. Of course, despite even in the best example of family, only God can perfectly orchestrate this type of oneness.

That is one of the reasons I so believe in UR. I don't believe God loves any of us more than another. Not in the purest sense. We might have different roles, but I believe in His mind, we are all equally cherished.

I believe that God having a son was part of the plan of Redemption from eternity, as God knew what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus birth and mission was foretold in the Old Testament, for generations. Even in the Garden, after the apple incident, Jesus' role was foretold.

So, my vote is from Eternity for God, and from the beginning of time, down here.

My  :2c:

BTW, you guys and gals are doing an amazing job with this question!

D.

    :thumbsup:   :Chinscratch: I think though sister, you have been the one to hit the nail on the head! :friendstu:

[CHB]

I believe Jesus became Savior when he died (Heb. 9:16-17).

CHB

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch: ..this is getting curiouser and curiouser.. How they can all sound on the mark! :mock:

[CHB]

marie,  :girlheart:

CHB

[WhiteWings]

:Chinscratch: ..this is getting curiouser and curiouser.. How they can all sound on the mark! :mock:

Maybe option 'g' I just added sounds on the mark too?  :friendstu:

[marie glen]

gee, could it be g?  :Chinscratch:  :dontknow: I'm thinking no, because I remember how He said to the Samaritan woman "I am He.." Of course she had called Him "that prophet" (who would tell them all things) but I assume Messiah/Anointed One is what she was referring to.

Is it the verse in Psalm 2 "This day have I begotten You"..
Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."

7 "I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession. [I love those verses! Jesus is "the decree" - He is THE law! THE life and light.. and Logos, THE truth..]


begotten = #G3205 yalad ► yalad: to bear, bring forth, beget

But... when was "today" John the Baptist called said when Jesus was baptized the Father's voice said "This is my Son, the beloved whom I am well pleased.." have approved.. He's the decree!

:Chinscratch: h] Some other time? ..?

He was always the Son, preeminent, etc "before Abraham, I am" ..but was specially anointed as Messiah/Savior and "brought forth" to the world's eyes, at His baptism?

It's a tricky question? as it could be said He was Messiah as soon as intended by the Father..?

But anointed for the office ( :doh: ) ...He of course being the Son before, and had the Holy Spirit.. but was anointed for the office at His baptism?

Okay.. I'm settling on and sticking with h - (honest? or, I hope I don't have to change my mind again.. I'm feeling kind of fickle.. :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Well that "today I have begotten you" is a very puzzeling statement.
First look here

As you wrote Jesus was alive when Abraham was alive. So even if Jesus was quite young to God's standards He was older than just begotten on baptism day. (newborn baby)

If Jesus never existed until Mary gave birth to Him, He was begotten by the HS 9 months earlier. So at baptism He was begotten 30 years and 9 months earlier. Not today.

Simply put, begotten is usually understood as being born (or perhaps made pregnant). But that can't be aligned with baptism day. Not with a 30 year old earthly Jesus. Not with a Jesus that was at the very least several centuries (Abraham) old.

So I can only conclude that verse is misunderstood or mistranslated. Or of course, a little of both.

[rosered]

Well that "today I have begotten you" is a very puzzeling statement.
First look here

As you wrote Jesus was alive when Abraham was alive. So even if Jesus was quite young to God's standards He was older than just begotten on baptism day. (newborn baby)

If Jesus never existed until Mary gave birth to Him, He was begotten by the HS 9 months earlier. So at baptism He was begotten 30 years and 9 months earlier. Not today.

Simply put, begotten is usually understood as being born (or perhaps made pregnant). But that can't be aligned with baptism day. Not with a 30 year old earthly Jesus. Not with a Jesus that was at the very least several centuries (Abraham) old.

So I can only conclude that verse is misunderstood or mistranslated. Or of course, a little of both.

  Brother T ,
  I see this   mostly likely   as  , THE WORD OF GOD  ,all along , but  was made flesh = Jesus Christ .[in that   birth =body = time ]

  as the simple  result =truth   for me that helps    give some  contentment   for now 

  So   the bottom line is it is UR , in the  idea   that God spoke everything into being  ,  and the WORD is what judges everything  and will never return to God / Spirit void  / empty .

[marie glen]

White Wings 

Begotten.. curious word..

Yep.. that's why I went with brought forth.. And that whole idea of not being until born on earth.. or in the womb, I agree, that's just crazy talk!

Here's another idea.. from the Song of Moses after the Red Sea, they sang how Yhvh had become their salvation. Making me think Jesus becomes each one of our savior when we come to belief / knowing..

But! That doesn't mean He wasn't "Savior of the world" all along..

I only stopped in to make that quick comment..

I'm thinking (therefor) that He is and has been and always will be Savior, because He is "the decree". There is no life for any creature, man or angel, except through Him.

Therefor, He being preserver, sustainer of the life force and being alive, He is forever Savior, God having planned, visualized, preknew the whole edifice before ever creating.
:Peace2: :2c: (imo)
b

[WhiteWings]

Therefor, He being preserver, sustainer of the life force and being alive, He is forever Savior, God having planned, visualized, preknew the whole edifice before ever creating.

God also planned you before creating. Does that mean you are at least as old as the earth?


I think this is the parallel verse. http://biblehub.com/psalms/2-7.htm

[sheila]

our spirits are as old as God.....there is nothing else..He made us/our[spirits]from His own spirit substance]

you have been with me from the beginning[the Word of God come inflesh][Godshares His substance/consciousness with us that we

maylive.] :2c:inHim we live and move and have our being.

[rosered]

our spirits are as old as God.....there is nothing else..He made us/our[spirits]from His own spirit substance]

you have been with me from the beginning[the Word of God come inflesh][Godshares His substance/consciousness with us that we

maylive.] :2c:inHim we live and move and have our being.

:thumbsup:    :dsunny:

[WhiteWings]

I agree and I disagree.

Agree: We orginate from God.
Disagree: We are as old as God. We a pots orginating from the Great Potter's wheel, but we didn't exist before He took us of that wheel.

Yeah, I'm fully aware it's about the all-in-one thing. Like, let's say 20 billion spirits in one. But it just doesn't feel right to me to say I'm as eternal as theFather....
:2c:

[sheila]

..just the 'material/substance"of what were made of is..there wasn't anything else but Him..and He made us from His own substance..

we didn't come into being until He thought to[willed] to bring us forth from His substance. trying toclear up whatImean,not debate.

[CHB]

(1John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

My understanding of this verse is, Jesus couldn't have been Savior of the world before he was born.

CHB