When did Jesus became the Messiah, Christ, Savior.
a] At the very start of creation?
b] He always was, even trillions of years before theFather started in Gen 1:1?
c] When He was born on earth?
d] When His ministry started?
e] When He was resurrected?
f] When He ascended to heaven?
g] Just after He destroyed the forces of evil and raises the death as described in Revelation.
h] Some other time?
:hithere:
My first reaction was to think b.. But! That is His Sonship.. So, I'm thinking A, "at the foundation/beginning of the world", after all the Father alluded to Him as savior in Genesis 3 after Adam and Eve's disobedience, although it seems obvious to me, the Father planned it, not like it was some spur of the moment thing.. Or a reaction, as if something occurred which took Him by surprise. :laughing7:
A good question, love a quiz, hope I got it right.. :thumbsup:
English is a diverse language at times.
I.M.O the position was planned when the earth was being planned;
but the fulfilment of that position was when Christ presented the blood before the throne in heaven- [Heb 9;24]
Christ held the Jews back from following Him because He knew He had to be sacrificed for us, otherwise the Jews would have wanted Christ to lead them against the nations by force; totally opposite to true love.
The concept of sacrifice had to be learnt so as to appreciate the whole process.
The law had to be there as a temporary guide to acceptable behaviour.
This all setting up the need for true love which excels beyond attempted/fake love.
All a master plan made whilst there were angels/heavenly beings already created. Then Hebrews 1 explaining how Christ was made lower than angels, like we currently are, but raised above angels, like we will be in the glorious future. Even the angels did not know about this [ Eph 3;10].
Exciting that the coming world is not subjected to angels Heb 2;5- and we will be there with Christ, in Christ, as joint heirs to this glorious age.
:Chinscratch: I think I'll change my answer to f. :gsmile:
Quote from: Ross on February 07, 2018, 03:54:39 AM
but the fulfilment of that position was when Christ presented the blood before the throne in heaven-
..I agree about the planning too.. and the rest..
Quote
English is a diverse language at times.
I.M.O the position was planned when the earth was being planned;
but the fulfilment of that position was when Christ presented the blood before the throne in heaven- [Heb 9;24]
Christ held the Jews back from following Him because He knew He had to be sacrificed for us, otherwise the Jews would have wanted Christ to lead them against the nations by force; totally opposite to true love.
The concept of sacrifice had to be learnt so as to appreciate the whole process.
The law had to be there as a temporary guide to acceptable behaviour.
This all setting up the need for true love which excels beyond attempted/fake love.
All a master plan made whilst there were angels/heavenly beings already created. Then Hebrews 1 explaining how Christ was made lower than angels, like we currently are, but raised above angels, like we will be in the glorious future. Even the angels did not know about this [ Eph 3;10].
Exciting that the coming world is not subjected to angels Heb 2;5- and we will be there with Christ, in Christ, as joint heirs to this glorious age.
:thumbsup:
Just throwing in some idea's to muddle the water... :laugh:
An animal lamb atones for sins when it dies. But has to be perfect to be accepted. That would rule out anything before His death. But...
Rev 13:8 ..... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Resurrection is a gift from God. Something Jesus earned but not do Himself.
Ross is right about sprinkling blood in heaven. But is that when He became the Savior? The sprinkling was indeed part of the atonement. But it wasn't done by Lamb-Jesus but by Priest-Jesus.
Is Jesus playing (at least) two roles that should not be mixed up to find the correct answer?
Who saves? The lamb that dies or the priest that sprinkles?
God may have made a plan trillions of years before Jesus walked this planet. God even back then knew the outcome with 100% certainty. But does that really count? King David never was called king until he actually was king. The Apostles weren't apostles by birth but became so at much later age. God gave some major OT figures a new name, but before that time they were always referenced to with their old name/title.
This had me going ...
1 clue is , Because the name
Jesus Christ is a earthly name , there is no name
under heaven that salvation can come though .
2 clue is the WORD of God made flesh ,,
3 clue I have considered the words of Paul testimony , that in the 3rd heaven these words were unlawful for a man to utter /speak of ,, so it is speaking of the heavenly language of angels ministering spirits
and the 4 clue
Being King & High Priest
Melchizedek
Hebrews (chapters 5,6, and 7)
First being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Without father, without mother, without descent, having
neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abides a priest continually.
So it is without beginning or end like a circle of life or the wheels
within the wheels duality creating the sparks that fly . what was hidden within the wheels as the outer wheels create the sparks of movement book of Ezekiel , the son of man and the son of God both in motion , which is very hard to comprehend without the Holy Spirit teaching .
Gods consuming fire of jealous love /law No other gods before Him , placing all glory in His one of a kind Son , Son of God , till God be all in all .
Revelation of Jesus Christ , Alpha & Omega the beginning and end , the first and the last , perfection / completion the circle of Life Galilee = "circuit, district"
cir·cuit
ˈsərkət/Submit
noun
1.
a roughly circular line, route, or movement that starts and finishes at the same place.
"I ran a circuit of the village"
synonyms: lap, turn, round, circle
"two circuits of the course"
2.
an established itinerary of events or venues used for a particular activity, typically involving public performance.
"the alternative cabaret circuit"
verb
1.
move all the way around (a place or thing).
This where Jesus promises to meet Him in Galilee in his return The derivations of this verb are:
The masculine noun גיל (gil), meaning
rejoicing (Psalm 45:16, Isaiah 16:10).
The feminine noun גילה (gila), also meaning rejoicing (Isaiah 65:18).
The masculine noun גיל (gil),
meaning a circle or age. The phrase בן גילו (ben gilu) literally means
'son of circle' and denotes someone born at the same time, contemporary.
To me it is hidden from mans sight , his own understanding or wisdom and only the Spirit of Christ knows , by the Spirit of God /Father working in a man and just begins to scratch the surface
QuoteJust throwing in some idea's to muddle the water... :laugh:
You got that right bro , just like the angel of the Lord stirring up The Pool of Siloam (Hebrew: בריכת השילוח, Breikhat Hashiloah) was a rock-cut pool on the southern slope of the City of David, /Bethesda ,
so whom ever desires to be in that pool can be healed when dipped in it .....
The fifth chapter of the Gospel of John describes such a pool in Jerusalem, near the
Sheep Gate, which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. It is associated with healing.
:HeartThrob:
I personally believe this Revelation or unveiling of Jesus Christ in the earth has been going on since He died at the cross , rose up in GLORY to become the Lord master of the dead and the living to sit at the right hand of the Father
and comes down when ever GOD THE FATHER calls the Word to Life in anyone , like a thief in the night .. these are the mighty works of the Living God .
no man knows nor the angels , but the Father only ... Mark 13
31Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
32But as for that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come....
Word judges you on the last day
John 12 ...47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them,
I do not judge him.
For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:
The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.
Gods word will not return to Him Void/but Living to GOD , THE LIVING GOD
Isaiah 59:21
"As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."
It Is real truth More scripts that testify of Him
it is so important to understand the change , the old heavens and earth must pass away first , before the new heavens and earth begin new in the twinkling of a eye , that is fast!!!! 1 Corinthians 15:52: We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. all , not some or a few but ALL , Because if one can believe Jesus WORD by the Fathers Spirit , we can begin to rest in this great hope , He is our true rest , as it is going to happen Just as He said it did , does and will happen .
Jer 10 The Sovereignty of God
...9Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish, And gold from Uphaz, The work of a craftsman and of the hands of a goldsmith; Violet and purple are their clothing; They are all the work of skilled men.
10But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
11Thus you shall say to them, "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens."...
Genesis 21:33
Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God.
1 Samuel 17:26
Then David spoke to the men who were standing by him, saying, "What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should taunt the armies of the living God?"
1 Kings 8:60
so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no one else.
Psalm 10:16
The LORD is King forever and ever; Nations have perished from His land.
Psalm 29:10
The LORD sat as King at the flood; Yes, the LORD sits as King forever.
Psalm 42:2
My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?
Psalm 68:8
The earth quaked; The heavens also dropped rain at the presence of God; Sinai itself quaked at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
Psalm 76:7
You, even You, are to be feared; And who may stand in Your presence when once You are angry?
Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
Isaiah 40:15
Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket, And are regarded as a speck of dust on the scales; Behold, He lifts up the islands like fine dust.
In awe of THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD a feeling of reverential of the nature of, due to, or characterized by reverence.respect mixed with fear and wonderment .
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2018, 08:53:12 AM
Just throwing in some idea's to muddle the water... :laugh:
An animal lamb atones for sins when it dies. But has to be perfect to be accepted. That would rule out anything before His death. But...
Rev 13:8 ..... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Resurrection is a gift from God. Something Jesus earned but not do Himself.
Ross is right about sprinkling blood in heaven. But is that when He became the Savior? The sprinkling was indeed part of the atonement. But it wasn't done by Lamb-Jesus but by Priest-Jesus.
Is Jesus playing (at least) two roles that should not be mixed up to find the correct answer?
Who saves? The lamb that dies or the priest that sprinkles?
God may have made a plan trillions of years before Jesus walked this planet. God even back then knew the outcome with 100% certainty. But does that really count? King David never was called king until he actually was king. The Apostles weren't apostles by birth but became so at much later age. God gave some major OT figures a new name, but before that time they were always referenced to with their old name/title.
oh no! I may have to change my answer again! :doh: :thinking: I've highlighted the clues :Chinscratch:
but I still don't know.. "Jesus savior of the world.."
Quote from: rosered on February 07, 2018, 12:48:31 PM
I personally believe this Revelation or unveiling of Jesus Christ in the earth has been going on since He died at the cross , rose up in GLORY to become the Lord master of the dead and the living to sit at the right hand of the Father
and comes down when ever GOD THE FATHER calls the Word to Life in anyone , like a thief in the night .. these are the mighty works of the Living God .
Wow! Love that Rose! And great post and verses..
Quote from: rosered on February 07, 2018, 12:48:31 PM
For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should taunt the armies of the living God?"
I've always loved that line!! :laugh2: :Peace2:
Thank you Sis Marie , you are always so kind and inclusive , I so love that about you :HeartThrob:
You have such a big heart sis :girlheart:
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on February 07, 2018, 08:53:12 AM
Just throwing in some idea's to muddle the water... :laugh:
An animal lamb atones for sins when it dies. But has to be perfect to be accepted. That would rule out anything before His death. But...
Rev 13:8 ..... the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Resurrection is a gift from God. Something Jesus earned but not do Himself.
Ross is right about sprinkling blood in heaven. But is that when He became the Savior? The sprinkling was indeed part of the atonement. But it wasn't done by Lamb-Jesus but by Priest-Jesus.
Is Jesus playing (at least) two roles that should not be mixed up to find the correct answer?
Who saves? The lamb that dies or the priest that sprinkles?
God may have made a plan trillions of years before Jesus walked this planet. God even back then knew the outcome with 100% certainty. But does that really count? King David never was called king until he actually was king. The Apostles weren't apostles by birth but became so at much later age. God gave some major OT figures a new name, but before that time they were always referenced to with their old name/title.
Good stuff , Bro T , always good too see you posting again and over it :laughing7:
Bro Ross is on it !!! :banana:
I believe we all began whenever it was that God thought to make us. I also think it is very likely that we have been in God's thoughts for eternity. We are a part of Him, made in His image and likeness.
I believe Jesus was always a part of the Father, and I believe He is eternal. I do believe in the Trinity, not because of roles, needs, or titles, but because God is Love, and in this Love, the three persons exist in a union, that I believe we could not understand, here on earth. A union so connected, that in that connection, their love is so deep and encompassing, that each gives the other the honor of being equal in this loving connection. Superiority is a relationship that can bring disharmony. There may be different roles, but if each is not respected and loved and thought of as an equal, it can open the door for difficulties. I believe one of the reasons that God created marriage was to have a visible demonstration on earth of how love that respects and holds the other up, as an equal, can transform people, and the world, at large. We also, sadly, needed to see what happens when that does not happen in a marriage and the toll it can take on the people involved, as well as in society. Just like the model of the Trinity, love can bind us together and make us one in heart. Of course, despite even in the best example of family, only God can perfectly orchestrate this type of oneness.
That is one of the reasons I so believe in UR. I don't believe God loves any of us more than another. Not in the purest sense. We might have different roles, but I believe in His mind, we are all equally cherished.
I believe that God having a son was part of the plan of Redemption from eternity, as God knew what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden.
Jesus birth and mission was foretold in the Old Testament, for generations. Even in the Garden, after the apple incident, Jesus' role was foretold.
So, my vote is from Eternity for God, and from the beginning of time, down here.
My :2c:
BTW, you guys and gals are doing an amazing job with this question!
D.
Quote from: rosered on February 08, 2018, 02:19:59 AM
Thank you Sis Marie , you are always so kind and inclusive , I so love that about you :HeartThrob:
You have such a big heart sis :girlheart:
Quote
..thank you dear, you're such a sweetheart! :cloud9:
Quote from: Dandelion on February 08, 2018, 01:23:41 PM
I believe we all began whenever it was that God thought to make us. I also think it is very likely that we have been in God's thoughts for eternity. We are a part of Him, made in His image and likeness.
I believe Jesus was always a part of the Father, and I believe He is eternal. I do believe in the Trinity, not because of roles, needs, or titles, but because God is Love, and in this Love, the three persons exist in a union, that I believe we could not understand, here on earth. A union so connected, that in that connection, their love is so deep and encompassing, that each gives the other the honor of being equal in this loving connection. Superiority is a relationship that can bring disharmony. There may be different roles, but if each is not respected and loved and thought of as an equal, it can open the door for difficulties. I believe one of the reasons that God created marriage was to have a visible demonstration on earth of how love that respects and holds the other up, as an equal, can transform people, and the world, at large. We also, sadly, needed to see what happens when that does not happen in a marriage and the toll it can take on the people involved, as well as in society. Just like the model of the Trinity, love can bind us together and make us one in heart. Of course, despite even in the best example of family, only God can perfectly orchestrate this type of oneness.
That is one of the reasons I so believe in UR. I don't believe God loves any of us more than another. Not in the purest sense. We might have different roles, but I believe in His mind, we are all equally cherished.
I believe that God having a son was part of the plan of Redemption from eternity, as God knew what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden.
Jesus birth and mission was foretold in the Old Testament, for generations. Even in the Garden, after the apple incident, Jesus' role was foretold.
So, my vote is from Eternity for God, and from the beginning of time, down here.
My :2c:
BTW, you guys and gals are doing an amazing job with this question!
D.
:thumbsup: :Chinscratch: I think though sister, you have been the one to hit the nail on the head! :friendstu:
I believe Jesus became Savior when he died (Heb. 9:16-17).
CHB
:Chinscratch: ..this is getting curiouser and curiouser.. How they can all sound on the mark! :mock:
marie, :girlheart:
CHB
Quote from: marie glen on February 09, 2018, 10:14:30 PM
:Chinscratch: ..this is getting curiouser and curiouser.. How they can all sound on the mark! :mock:
Maybe option 'g' I just added sounds on the mark too? :friendstu:
gee, could it be g? :Chinscratch: :dontknow: I'm thinking no, because I remember how He said to the Samaritan woman "I am He.." Of course she had called Him "that prophet" (who would tell them all things) but I assume Messiah/Anointed One is what she was referring to.
Is it the verse in Psalm 2 "This day have I begotten You"..
Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession. [I love those verses! Jesus is "the decree" - He is THE law! THE life and light.. and Logos, THE truth..]
begotten = #G3205 yalad ► yalad: to bear, bring forth, beget
But... when was "today" John the Baptist called said when Jesus was baptized the Father's voice said "This is my Son, the beloved whom I am well pleased.." have approved.. He's the decree!
:Chinscratch: h] Some other time? ..?
He was always the Son, preeminent, etc "before Abraham, I am" ..but was specially anointed as Messiah/Savior and "brought forth" to the world's eyes, at His baptism?
It's a tricky question? as it could be said He was Messiah as soon as intended by the Father..?
But anointed for the office ( :doh: ) ...He of course being the Son before, and had the Holy Spirit.. but was anointed for the office at His baptism?
Okay.. I'm settling on and sticking with h - (honest? or, I hope I don't have to change my mind again.. I'm feeling kind of fickle.. :laughing7:
Well that "today I have begotten you" is a very puzzeling statement.
First look here (http://tentmaker.org/forum/topics-for-established-members/jesus-is-not-the-only-begotten-son-of-god/msg161531/#msg161531)
As you wrote Jesus was alive when Abraham was alive. So even if Jesus was quite young to God's standards He was older than just begotten on baptism day. (newborn baby)
If Jesus never existed until Mary gave birth to Him, He was begotten by the HS 9 months earlier. So at baptism He was begotten 30 years and 9 months earlier. Not today.
Simply put, begotten is usually understood as being born (or perhaps made pregnant). But that can't be aligned with baptism day. Not with a 30 year old earthly Jesus. Not with a Jesus that was at the very least several centuries (Abraham) old.
So I can only conclude that verse is misunderstood or mistranslated. Or of course, a little of both.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 06:52:10 AM
Well that "today I have begotten you" is a very puzzeling statement.
First look here (http://tentmaker.org/forum/topics-for-established-members/jesus-is-not-the-only-begotten-son-of-god/msg161531/#msg161531)
As you wrote Jesus was alive when Abraham was alive. So even if Jesus was quite young to God's standards He was older than just begotten on baptism day. (newborn baby)
If Jesus never existed until Mary gave birth to Him, He was begotten by the HS 9 months earlier. So at baptism He was begotten 30 years and 9 months earlier. Not today.
Simply put, begotten is usually understood as being born (or perhaps made pregnant). But that can't be aligned with baptism day. Not with a 30 year old earthly Jesus. Not with a Jesus that was at the very least several centuries (Abraham) old.
So I can only conclude that verse is misunderstood or mistranslated. Or of course, a little of both.
Brother T ,
I see this mostly likely as , THE WORD OF GOD ,all along , but was made flesh = Jesus Christ .[in that birth =body = time ]
as the simple result =truth for me that helps give some contentment for now
So the bottom line is it is UR , in the idea that God spoke everything into being , and the WORD is what judges everything and will never return to God / Spirit void / empty .
White Wings
Quote
Begotten.. curious word..
Yep.. that's why I went with
brought forth.. And that whole idea of not being until born on earth.. or in the womb, I agree, that's just crazy talk!
Here's another idea.. from the Song of Moses after the Red Sea, they sang how Yhvh had become their salvation. Making me think Jesus becomes each one of our savior when we come to belief / knowing..
But! That doesn't mean He wasn't "Savior of the world" all along..
I only stopped in to make that quick comment..
I'm thinking (therefor) that He is and has been and always will be Savior, because He is "the decree". There is no life for any creature, man or angel, except through Him.
Therefor, He being preserver, sustainer of the life force and being alive, He is forever Savior, God having planned, visualized, preknew the whole edifice before ever creating.
:Peace2: :2c: (imo)
b
Quote from: marie glen on February 12, 2018, 05:05:21 PM
Therefor, He being preserver, sustainer of the life force and being alive, He is forever Savior, God having planned, visualized, preknew the whole edifice before ever creating.
God also planned you before creating. Does that mean you are at least as old as the earth?
I think this is the parallel verse. http://biblehub.com/psalms/2-7.htm
our spirits are as old as God.....there is nothing else..He made us/our[spirits]from His own spirit substance]
you have been with me from the beginning[the Word of God come inflesh][Godshares His substance/consciousness with us that we
maylive.] :2c:inHim we live and move and have our being.
Quote from: sheila on February 12, 2018, 06:34:17 PM
our spirits are as old as God.....there is nothing else..He made us/our[spirits]from His own spirit substance]
you have been with me from the beginning[the Word of God come inflesh][Godshares His substance/consciousness with us that we
maylive.] :2c:inHim we live and move and have our being.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
I agree and I disagree.
Agree: We orginate from God.
Disagree: We are as old as God. We a pots orginating from the Great Potter's wheel, but we didn't exist before He took us of that wheel.
Yeah, I'm fully aware it's about the all-in-one thing. Like, let's say 20 billion spirits in one. But it just doesn't feel right to me to say I'm as eternal as theFather....
:2c:
..just the 'material/substance"of what were made of is..there wasn't anything else but Him..and He made us from His own substance..
we didn't come into being until He thought to[willed] to bring us forth from His substance. trying toclear up whatImean,not debate.
(1John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
My understanding of this verse is, Jesus couldn't have been Savior of the world before he was born.
CHB
Maybe this helps a bit.
Was Jesus King of the Universe 2000 years ago?
This might and might not help us Eccl 3
Solomon was given a wisdom about God that no man had ever possessed before and left these Words for us , But Jesus proclaimed at His arrival that a greater than Solomon is Here speaking of this TIME he was sent forth out of God ...
9 What does the worker gain from his struggles?
10 I have seen the task that God has given the children of Adam to keep them occupied.
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time.
He has also put eternity in their hearts, but no one can discover the work God has done from beginning to end.
12 I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and enjoy the good life.
13 It is also the gift of God whenever anyone eats, drinks, and enjoys all his efforts. [This scripture is a lot as Paul's with the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking , but peace and joy and the Holy Spirit .. and it would be though the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ / Words this is also by the Spirit of prophecy that it would be known ]
14 I know that everything God does will last forever; there is no adding to it or taking from it. God works so that people will be in awe of him.
15 Whatever is, has already been, and whatever will be, already is. However, God seeks justice for the persecuted.
The Mystery of Injustice and Death
16 I also observed under the sun: there is wickedness at the place of judgment and there is wickedness at the place of righteousness.
17 I said to myself, "God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every work."
18 I said to myself, "This happens so that God may test the children of Adam and they may see for themselves that they are like animals."
19 For the fate of the children of Adam and the fate of animals is the same.
As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath.
People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile.
20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.
21 Who knows if the spirits of the children of Adam go upward and the spirits of animals go downward to the earth?
22 I have seen that there is nothing better than for a person to enjoy his activities because that is his reward.
For who can enable him to see what will happen after he dies?
WE can now see so much more by the testimony of Jesus that whomsoever hears His Voice will LIVE
EVEN IF HE DIES ..
John 5 The Father and the Son
16Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, "To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working."
18Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19So Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.
22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
30I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This who witness is about raising the dead to Life from the grave , now many think it is literal graves and this is a truth and there is a spiritual witness that many that are flesh and blood in bodies also are being raise to Life in the Spirit of Christ whom is in God this WORD is what is judging us now
This is a power message of Life though the Sprint of Life by the same Word that His how faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying .
To me it is the same voices / living waters from above in Genesis 1
The Second Day: Firmament
6Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day....
a cup of cold water is the same cup that those that spiritual drink from will never thirst again imho ...Matt 10 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is My disciple, truly I tell you, he will never lose his reward."
Hearing the living waters or voices from above ...JESUS' "VOICE AS THE SOUND OF MANY WATERS"
Revelation 1, the Almighty. ·
"And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters." (Revelations 1:15)
Ezekiel 43:2
and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory.
Daniel 10:6
His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.
Revelation 14:2
And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps.
Revelation 19:6
And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns.
This is the good news of the gospel preached though out the whole scorched earth .
..but the Lamb was slain before the founding of the world.In Him dwelt ALL the fullness...spirit without measure. How wasHeslain
before the founding of the world? unless to be apportioned out unto them that were given the spirit in measure....to resurrect
into the fullness/make ONE/UNIONof the fullness inHeaven. He was rich and made Himself poor for us...sharing His inheritance?
bringing the poor into His dwelling place? GivingHis life..spirit force portion/fullness..that we may live?
14 I know that everything God does will last forever; there is no adding to it or taking from it. God works so that people will be in awe of him.
Is it really me that has to start bickering about the meaning of English words... :laugh:
Eternal has no beginning and has no end.
Forever has a beginning but has no end.
In other words God is eternal but all of His creations are everlasting at best.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 09:14:02 PM
14 I know that everything God does will last forever; there is no adding to it or taking from it. God works so that people will be in awe of him.
Is it really me that has to start bickering about the meaning of English words... :laugh:
Eternal has no beginning and has no end.
Forever has a beginning but has no end.
In other words God is eternal but all of His creations are everlasting at best.
It is a circle of Life , the end Revealing of Jesus Christ Revelation to/from the beginning Genesis , and GOD SAID /Spoke , it was good ... till it be perfect /complete ... :banana:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God.
I do believe the Spirit of Truth and Word of Truth are ONE and the SAME bro T ...
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world....
THIS IS MY SON HEAR HIM
I believe Jesus is GODS VOICE
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets.
2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,
whom He appointed heir of all things,
and through whom He made the universe.
3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature,
upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high....
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God.
JESUS would say this in my opinion bro T , because he was both the Son of man and the Son of God
SO no flesh can boast , we can only boast in GOD as Jesus Christ always did
for what good works do you condemn me.Idothe worksofthe Father....the GOOD AND PERFECT WILL OF THE FATHER...
Hebrews 2;10 perfection comes from the suffering[of evil]being obedient unto the death of our flesh.
:thumbsup: Rose,I agree. He did not boast in his flesh..even though he had no sin..but exalted and glorified the Father's name.
I have not held back..I have declared thy name.
Quote from: rosered on February 12, 2018, 09:50:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God.
JESUS would say this in my opinion bro T , because he was both the Son of man and the Son of God
SO no flesh can boast , we can only boast in GOD as Jesus Christ always did
So Jesus rebuked those people for being 50% right, and explains with a teaching that's also just 50% correct?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2018, 06:52:56 AM
Quote from: rosered on February 12, 2018, 09:50:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God.
JESUS would say this in my opinion bro T , because he was both the Son of man and the Son of God
SO no flesh can boast , we can only boast in GOD as Jesus Christ always did
So Jesus rebuked those people for being 50% right, and explains with a teaching that's also just 50% correct?
Hi Bro T ,
For me , I do not see it as 50 % wrong or 50% right . But the true nature in Jesus Christ as a Son of God , a living creature and Holy Thing that it is .
Jesus was showing them a different way to think and judge things , not according to appearances , those things can be so deceiving playing on our emotions ,not what is real or correct , but in error .
Those riddles , Like if you seen me you have seen the Father .
and in another place , the way you treat this weak little guy over here it is the same as you have done it to me ..
This makes no sense what so ever to the natural mind /carnal minded human being and seems so silly to them , but uses logic to a proper or reasonable way of thinking about or understanding something. : a particular way of thinking about something. : the science that studies the formal processes used in thinking and reasoning.
This is why we have two minds that war with each other and on one hand you have some facts and on the other hand those facts do not line up with these facts that make it so confusing , that makes everyone [double minded ] and unstable reasoning .
I do believe this is why we have the scriptures to line us out , in a narrow path of life and off that broad path of confusion and destruction and loss .
The scripture that we consider is Jesus Christ taking ''every thought captive '' from a mind that is an enemy against the Spirit , so this natural mind is an enemy and all about death and loss and suffering etc ,all temporary and bad things and so Jesus mind would take this mind and bind it up in captivity , so the mind of Christ can rule over your body and emotions and plant good thoughts of truth and hope in there to grow and mature , cutting off the bad thoughts so they cannot mature , burn them up by the fire of His jealousy and love for us all ,
and give us some kind of peace and rest and hope now in this life and most certainly in the life that is coming to everyone when death is utterly destroyed and is Christ full on power over death . "Christ" is not Jesus' last name (surname). "Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "anointed one" or "chosen one." This is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Mashiach, or "Messiah." "Jesus" is the Lord's human name given to Mary by the angel Gabriel (Luke 1:31).
Messiah meaning the anointed One chosen by the Holy Spirit ,the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
2.
a leader or savior of a particular group or cause.
Just as Joshua was in His time [Day ] so is Jesus Christ in His time [Day]
this is the rest promised of God from the toil of vanity to the cause of Gods glory and work raising the dead to Life again
given them entrance to rest in Him doing the works on the Sabbath rest [the 7th Day ] Genesis 2 The Seventh Day: God Rests
1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made....
Hebrews 4 The Sabbath Rest
...7God again designated a certain day as "Today," when a long time later He spoke through David, as was already stated: "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." 8Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God....
Jesus heals on the Sabbath day is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath rest or evil ?
3So Jesus asked the experts in the law and the Pharisees, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?"
4But they remained silent. Jesus heals on the Sabbath 3 He told the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand before us." 4 Then he said to them, "Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
I am more than convinced that the 1000 year reign of Christ or the Day of the Lord is the Sabbath rest
Jesus is doing the works of the Father in that DAY so HE can present TO THE LIVING GOD the living , completely destroying death, abolishing the death covenant of old as to annulling it . death is the last enemy to be destroyed
till God be all in all
1 Corinthians 15 The Order of Resurrection to LIFE IN CHRIST . Christ's Resurrection Guarantees Ours
20 But as it is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at his coming, those who belong to Christ.
24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he abolishes all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be abolished is death.
...27For "God has put everything under His feet." Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him.
28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?...
The Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh is the guarantee of baptism from the death to Life again by hearing His Voice and Live ...
Everyone will rise in Christ , His Word and Spirit of truth is the guarantee and promise of Gods glory IN THE END THAT GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL . :dsunny: :banana: :HeartThrob:
So sorry this has been made long , but it is the scriptures that must line up and must be included to be the proof of Truth we all love and live by in the Spirit of Life in Christ ,
The Revelations of the Lord Jesus CHRIST is showing us how it is done , The veils removed by His glorified flesh , It is Johns vision , witness and testimony of the Day of the LORD being in the Sprint on the Lords SABBATH DAY /1000 year reign ..
A SON DAY , a REVEALING of the sons of God to the glory of the Fathers Love for the world that gave us His Son /Sabbath day rest ...
Quote from: rosered on February 13, 2018, 12:44:25 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2018, 06:52:56 AM
Quote from: rosered on February 12, 2018, 09:50:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God.
JESUS would say this in my opinion bro T , because he was both the Son of man and the Son of God
SO no flesh can boast , we can only boast in GOD as Jesus Christ always did
So Jesus rebuked those people for being 50% right, and explains with a teaching that's also just 50% correct?
Hi Bro T ,
For me , I do not see it as 50 % wrong or 50% right . But the true nature in Jesus Christ as a Son of God , a living creature and Holy Thing that it is .
Sorry but I can't agree.
Jesus could for example have said: Yes, I'm very good
because I do everything I see the very good Father do.
That way He would have giving full credits/praise to theFather and still not saying He's (Jesus) is not good.
But He made it clear only theFather is good. That's what He literally said.
Sure I can agree Jesus was giving words of wisdom/teaching as He always did. But the thing is that His teachings where always 100% true. Never a imperfect compromise as a teaching tool. Jesus was very capable to explain everything without resorting to half truths as a teaching tool.
That was one of the reasons He was hated so much. He had a perfect answer for every question and not a single letter could be even remotely used to attack Him with.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 15, 2018, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 13, 2018, 12:44:25 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2018, 06:52:56 AM
Quote from: rosered on February 12, 2018, 09:50:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 12, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God.
JESUS would say this in my opinion bro T , because he was both the Son of man and the Son of God
SO no flesh can boast , we can only boast in GOD as Jesus Christ always did
So Jesus rebuked those people for being 50% right, and explains with a teaching that's also just 50% correct?
Hi Bro T ,
For me , I do not see it as 50 % wrong or 50% right . But the true nature in Jesus Christ as a Son of God , a living creature and Holy Thing that it is .
Sorry but I can't agree.
Jesus could for example have said: Yes, I'm very good because I do everything I see the very good Father do.
That way He would have giving full credits/praise to theFather and still not saying He's (Jesus) is not good.
But He made it clear only theFather is good. That's what He literally said.
Sure I can agree Jesus was giving words of wisdom/teaching as He always did. But the thing is that His teachings where always 100% true. Never a imperfect compromise as a teaching tool. Jesus was very capable to explain everything without resorting to half truths as a teaching tool.
That was one of the reasons He was hated so much. He had a perfect answer for every question and not a single letter could be even remotely used to attack Him with.
:2c:
I agree 100% :iagree: Only God can praise His son .
and Jesus could only Praise His Father
In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah show up.
If they were not just a 'trick' of God how could they be there without being raised to life again?
They never gave honor to Jesus (on earth) because they never met Him. They were holy men but never had the luxery like we have to state things like "Jesus was nailed to the cross but 3 days later He met Mary"
On top of that the most important point for this discussion; the death of Jesus was still months away. So He hasn't paid the wages of death yet back then.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 18, 2018, 08:41:12 AM
In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah show up.
If they were not just a 'trick' of God how could they be there without being raised to life again?
They never gave honor to Jesus (on earth) because they never met Him. They were holy men but never had the luxery like we have to state things like "Jesus was nailed to the cross but 3 days later He met Mary"
On top of that the most important point for this discussion; the death of Jesus was still months away. So He hasn't paid the wages of death yet back then.
:2c:
Good question ,
I have wondered to WW .
But other scriptures tells us that they were many predestined in Christ/anointed for a certain purpose already , Like Moses and Elijah all the old testament witnesses , but those things were hidden , a mystery , done behind the veil .
It was not till the fullness of time Christ come in the flesh , this time as the son of man and son of God to go to the cross as a Open Show of His authority over the world
But He was always Apha and is and will be Omega . First & last .
Colossians 1:16
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 2:10
And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 18, 2018, 08:41:12 AM
In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah show up.
If they were not just a 'trick' of God how could they be there without being raised to life again?
They never gave honor to Jesus (on earth) because they never met Him. They were holy men but never had the luxery like we have to state things like "Jesus was nailed to the cross but 3 days later He met Mary"
On top of that the most important point for this discussion; the death of Jesus was still months away. So He hasn't paid the wages of death yet back then.
:2c:
Elijah was taken up to heaven.. I've thought perhaps the writer was wrong and the second guy was Enoch.. but that would be merely some sort of wild guess.. That and the two witnesses are a mystery to me..
In the Old Testament of course, the animal sacrifices represented Jesus' sacrifice and were accounted like it, yet had to be repeated as the blood of animals could not remedy the situation like the life blood of Jesus..
He was slain from the foundation/blueprint of the world..I think His saying "why do you call me good?" Implied, "being a man like you" - The speaker implying that a man can be "good".. Jesus speaking from the position of man.. I've wondered about the verse "the captain of their salvation made perfect" - tested/tempered/made stronger - "through the things He suffered" because I think of Him as
always perfect, which I have no doubt of..
He became my savior when I found out about it.. Yet while I was yet a sinner He died for me, so actually was my savior when He paid the price ("slain from the foundation"?).. But as sustainer, preserver, all things made through Him.. From the Father's point of view, always the savior? Or became savior when He physically paid the price.. but the OT sacrifices were a type and figure (but also substance?) until the real thing..
He 'became' savior when it was needed? "Slain at the foundation of the world" but the rebel angels having rebelled in thought before the creation of the universe.. as by time Eden the rebel thinking was fully matured/fully rotten.. And we know fruit takes time to mature..
But Jesus' had to be Lamb without blemish, to be able to pay the wages of sin.
Without blemish = good
Some understand Eliyah been taken to heaven as never died. Personally I'm not so sure about that, but it would him appearing to Jesus less problematic.
Deut 34:5-7. Moses was dead and buried
In 1 Sam 28, Saul speaks with dead Samuel. But the views about differ too. Some say it was really Samuel, others think it was a demonic illusion.
I can only see that everything written up to the time Jesus come in the flesh body in the appearance of sinful flesh , was doing the works of God and speaking only what the Father told him too , because He knew what purpose he come to do and that was open heaven by the cross and His own mortal death showing us how it is done , but was healing and opening the minds and hearts of many under the law of sin and death while he walked the earth as a man in mortal flesh , but we Know He was the Spirit of truth and the great Sword to divide those under the law od darkness and sin nature & death and those that were given mercy and grace under the new law and living way of Life in Christ ..
Everyone born of woman is under the law of sin and death , back than as well as now , Till Christ comes
the transfiguration was the law and prophets with Jesus forming the head to rule after Christ death and the new covenant
was immediately taken in effect ..
That is why the urgency in so many scriptures tell us it is the last hour .
or the time is near
Or Jesus own Words we are to believe it , NOW IS THE TIME John 4 ...22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth."...
John 4:21
"Believe Me, woman," Jesus replied, "a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
John 5:25
Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 5:28
Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 18, 2018, 04:13:51 PM
But Jesus' had to be Lamb without blemish, to be able to pay the wages of sin.
Without blemish = good
Some understand Eliyah been taken to heaven as never died. Personally I'm not so sure about that, but it would him appearing to Jesus less problematic.
Deut 34:5-7. Moses was dead and buried
In 1 Sam 28, Saul speaks with dead Samuel. But the views about differ too. Some say it was really Samuel, others think it was a demonic illusion.
I believe their flesh died as in Adam all die , but their spirits rose up to Gods glory from the earth they believed in God
Gods Word as truth as much as they were given to know [Spirit of measure ]
Only JESUS CHRIST had /has the Spirit without measure .