Matthew 10:33

[JamesH]

How would an EU explain this verse to someone who's a skeptic of universalism who says this verse means Christ will reject you before the Father permanently?

Matthew 10:33-but whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

[marie glen]

..in that it doesn't say "for ever" and "ever".. like the translators so often run with a verse or choose the most extreme possible application of a word.

Earlier in the chapter is when Jesus said a town that rejects him, it will be easier for Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment 'Day' than for that town. If it was me who was asked about it, I'd probably go into why I think Judgment 'Day' is a very long day indeed.. and how I figure if Jesus fulfilled the Spring Holy Days via His first advent, then the long second advent is prefigured by the Fall ones of Trumpets (Rev 8-11,13-19), Day of Atonement (Lev 23:26-32) and Tabernacles (Rev 21:3) - as the three peaks of the advent.

Making Judgment 'Day' to be a fulfillment of Day Of Atonement. And how it's likely(?) only at the end of Judgment 'Day' that it is said those whose names are (still?) not recorded in the Book of Life, will go to the lake of fire. (Which I think of as the baptism of fire all alive will go through but each in their own time.)

But mostly.. it's that whole thing of adding "forever" so many times that people read it when it hasn't even been inserted! In the interlinear versions of some verses, at least some of them which have been translated with "forever" in it, in the original, it's not even there as aionios! I don't know very much about Greek, but it seems to me if there's no sort of 'time' word in the verse, where did they get forever? Speaking of other verses besides Mt 10:33.. that forever is read so often and assumed it's now habitual to assume "forever" when thinking of condition after death. Rising still in one's sins, is simply assumed to be a forever (and ever) thing, but it doesn't really say that any where, as far as I can see..

When I first looked up forever in the Strong's Concordance book, I remember, how surprised I was that there was no forever. Soon enough I realized (dah) that it was "for" "ever".. But how elusive the verses became, as to forever! Then there's all the all verses, etc. It just becomes more and more dumbfounding how missed Universalism is! :faint:

[jugghead]

also if it is taken within its original meaning "to contradict" it makes more sense .....

"But whosoever shall contradict Me before men, him will I also contradict before My Father which is in heaven"

Which in this understanding it lines up with "how you judge another, you shall be judged" or "how you measure another is how you shall be measured"

and by this it relates to "what you sow you shall reap" ..... if you sow contradiction so shall you reap contradiction ..... which relates back to Genesis in "producing seed after its kind"

[Patinak]

Rick,

Tell me where you came up with 'contradict' as the original meaning for ἀρνέομαι?

I'm not challenging you on this, I'm just wondering, from where?

The Matthew 10:33 verse never really made sense to me as written, especially when you look at Peter's famous 3 denials! (same ἀρνέομαι).

Pat

[jugghead]

Rick,

Tell me where you came up with 'contradict' as the original meaning for ἀρνέομαι?

I'm not challenging you on this, I'm just wondering, from where?

The Matthew 10:33 verse never really made sense to me as written, especially when you look at Peter's famous 3 denials! (same ἀρνέομαι).

Pat

E-Sword through its concordance from the KJV

[rosered]

How would an EU explain this verse to someone who's a skeptic of universalism who says this verse means Christ will reject you before the Father permanently?

Matthew 10:33-but whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

  I enjoyed reading everyone posts  :dsunny:
Hi James  ,

Well when you read  Matt 10 , we must realize  Jesus was  establishing  a new and Living way  to his chosen disciples  , those 12   and the message was for them  to Not be afraid of   what man can do to them .. but where two or 3 are gathered in His name HE  WOULD BE IN THE MIDST OF THEM with the Holy angels warriors of heaven   and fighting for them with the SWORD of His mouth .  the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH   speaking .

  At the time  everyone was under the old law of  Moses , the eye for eye and tooth for tooth and all the kingdom had come though violence      ,

Jesus was telling them  to expect opposition   , the very same opposition  he was rejected by and  called the son of the devil 
  If you read Luke 12   they both are  along the same accounts    and message .

The Lord said He come to  bring division   , He was going the separate the old [ tree of knowledge  of good and evil , the ministration of death  and EXPOSING SIN ] from the new  [ tree of Life ]   reconciling the world   though the gospel  message  by love and forgiveness of sin   and covering sin  with His own blood  , He knew He was  going to the cross to lay down his Life to take it back up again  and receive total  POWER and glory from the heavens earth and below   , being both the Lord of the dead and the living  , all would be  HIS   given by the Father ...

Having Him in our midst is far better than being on your own , this is what it means to me  , because the  Baptism of Christ death was to set the whole world on fire .."I have come to set the world on fire, and I wish it were already burning!

He baptizes us with Holy Spirit and fire ... making  his messengers[angels ]   spirits / winds  and ministers a flame of
fire   Hebrews  1 ;7   Regarding the angels, he says, "He sends his angels like the winds, his servants like flames of fire."

We have to remember  two things   about faith    Jesus told Nicodemus   everyone born of the Spirit is like the wind and you hear the sound of it , so are those born of faith  , being the substance   , this  substance to me is the  smearing of Holy Spirit oil   and  you become  rubbed  as  a light ,  a flame  , and  are setting the world on fire  ,   But the deposit  , is the incorruptible  seed  , Word of God that never dies ... 

  and if the Lord had not left us a seed we also would be the same as Sodom and Gomorrah , those are the chosen  out of the world   that the Lord Himself said and Spoke about saying  be in the world but not of it   , staring with the twelve  and  adding to this daily      John 17   this prayer is the   anointing of the High Priestly Prayer........

Jesus opened heaven for all and  is in the presence  of God Himself interceding  on our behalf   , we are all   depending on the mercy of God  and just as it is given to you , you in turn must also be merciful   to those   whom need it just as you did  ,

  we all must come to the end of the age  , that is  under the law of Moses and  come to Christ , He will make all things new 

I do believe  folks do not understand the way the  bible speaks to us .especially Jesus  words ..  we are all   as Adam under the old nature of sin and death  and the law is good   to put to death that old man of sinful nature   on the cross and exposing the sin  by the LIGHT OF DAY Christ
   Matt 5   Binding on earth as it is in heaven and loose on  earth as it is loosed in heaven 

  What does one  bind   the  angels messenger bind  up ?
49So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth....

Matthew 13:39
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Matthew 13:40
As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.

This age is those bound under the law  , just as it is written  ,  those whom show no mercy will die without mercy under 2 or 3 witnesses  , those whom depend and trust in this law

  they are captive to it and tied up by it  and  need to  loosed and freed from it , Just as Lazarus was  , when Jesus /Truth set him free   from death  and   clothed in grave clothes  , Jesus Christ is this Resurrection .... that is always   

  He was and Is and will be     the   Resurrection  Life .

So to me the  world is a fiery   place    of burning and being consumed  and we are told to keep our minds and hearts on the Lord  and not the world unless we become entangled with it again ...  nor turn back to the law  and ministration of death , but press on and forward and never looking back  , or become as Lots wife  a pillar of salt   OUR example .. Of looking back at our old life and not  able to  be free from sin  nature but constantly  exposing sin nature in ourselves and others  , she was not set free when God gave her opportunity   to flee  and was consumed by   it .  as Sodom and Gomorrah

  Paul  said ,I want to know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified   , from that point on he pressed forward and  even received great opposition from the world  , but counted it as joy  to be  like Jesus , His Master  builder  ,because He knew Gods grace was sufficient  to cover him and  every ones  sins   , giving the ministry of reconciliation  to save all that is lost ...


    Being in the presence of the Lord is the Holy Spirit and fire  baptism , bearing fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT and fire to God , You are clean by the WORD I HAVE SPOKEN  the truth sanctifies sets apart as or declare holy; consecrate , separated  and freed from sin
John 15  3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you.

Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me....
Stay with Jesus , to deny Him  , would be foolish   and suffer  loss ,  your works are burned up /consumed as corrupted  , but yet saved by fire ,  Just as Paul confirms   by Jesus works   
free gift eternal life   in Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive .
Romans 6 The Wages of Sin
...22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life.


23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  free gift of eternal life

The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon (in American English) and æon, originally meant "life", "vital force" or "being", "generation" or "a period of time", though it tended to be translated as "age" in the sense of "ages", "forever", "timeless" or "for eternity".

  Only the SPIRIT OF GOD  IS timeless   and made  in Gods Image  , HIS SON is our proof, incorruptible as  raised up  though death   we Live though Him  ,   as now  bearing the corruptible image of Adam [mankind  ] is temporary   [age ] But God is making all things new   , HE ALONE will be Glorified in that DAY       ...https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+43%3A18%2CIsaiah+43%3A19%2CRevelation+21%3A5%2CIsaiah+65%3A17%2CEphesians+2%3A15%2CEphesians+4%3A24%2CHebrews+8%3A13&version=ESV

[sheila]

o'wow...contradict makes so much more sense. Jesus said '..andye shallallfallaway" Peter contradicted the Lordwith 'notme"..and

reaped contradiction...denied Him 3 times before the cock crow.

[jugghead]

What I also see in this is Peter's contradiction of himself to others and who he was, contradicting those who saw him as a disciple .....

1. This man was also with Him (Luke 22:56)
2. Thou art also of them (Luke 22:58)
3. This fellow was also with him (Luke 22:59)

If we do not believe who we are IN Christ when it is told to us, is that not contradicting Christ IN who Christ says we are?

What I also see is: mankind as a whole is Christ crucified, separated as Moses and Elias,

those of the law
and
those of the prophets, prophets of Grace

During the age of the law, they had the prophets of who was to come .... Christ, who is the Grace of God
now, since He has already come we have the prophets (or disciples) of Grace for ALL of mankind

That both (all) are reconciled IN Christ, mankind will become one when God causes both to work together as one in understanding, first individually and then corporately ..... it has to take place IN us first before it can be manifested IN the world, which we are seeing the signs of it now through the many different kinds of people coming into UR.

All have a purpose for its time (age), then "all in all", the age to come of which we speak, of which is the Unknown God of which Paul spoke

[marie glen]

also if it is taken within its original meaning "to contradict" it makes more sense .....

"But whosoever shall contradict Me before men, him will I also contradict before My Father which is in heaven"

Which in this understanding it lines up with "how you judge another, you shall be judged" or "how you measure another is how you shall be measured"

and by this it relates to "what you sow you shall reap" ..... if you sow contradiction so shall you reap contradiction ..... which relates back to Genesis in "producing seed after its kind"

    :thumbsup: oh! That makes a lot of sense.. but of course the translators chose the most extreme use of the word, and it's habitual for everyone to assume forever should be inserted..

http://biblehub.com/greek/720.htm - #G720 arnéomai – properly, deny (refuse); hence, contradict, refuse to affirm or to confess (identify with); disown (repudiate). See also 4716 /staurós ("cross").

Rick,

Tell me where you came up with 'contradict' as the original meaning for ἀρνέομαι?

I'm not challenging you on this, I'm just wondering, from where?

The Matthew 10:33 verse never really made sense to me as written, especially when you look at Peter's famous 3 denials! (same ἀρνέομαι).

Pat

   :shock: :doh: That makes a lot of sense too! :thumbsup:


And amen Rose.. "the former things" (temptations, judging, evil thoughts of any sort) "shall not come to mind"

- Isaiah 65:17:
-- World English Bible
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Young's Literal Translation
For, lo, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

     :banana: :banana:

ET - the doctrine - contradicts Him, the Logos, Love.. (...? makes us 'judges' - "what God has declared clean call it not unclean.." ...? When we are aware of CU/UR, we view our fellow person who is not yet saved, differently.. No longer contradicting God's attribute of "mercy" and "love" and "righteous judgment".)

[jugghead]

Seeing all of this in Day One of Genesis in that God separated the light from the darkness

Separated Grace from the law (Christ crucified), the law understood as "darkness" in the sense of "not clearly understood (seen)"

but now they (law and grace/ law and the prophets) are being reconciled in One, that One being Christ with the end result being "all in all"

The transfiguration is a picture of the full work of God, showing all of physical time (seen as spiritual growth of mankind) in this one example,

[Simmo]

wow so interesting reading all that. thnxs yes contradict makes sense. This is a verse i love to share in a universalist discussion. If you deny me [in you] I will deny you [denying me in you] [and carry on loving you in you :)]

[in brackets expands how I understand this, even though I may just say the normal bit in outside the brackets]

Hey could I ask for some prayers. I planning on visiting a different church tomorrow - Quaker - with my wife coming too. Could really do with it going well. Thanks. (I would put in the prayer area - but feel I know u guys here better ;)

[CHB]

Yes, this makes sense. Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24) "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me". Also Paul said, If we are not in Christ then we are none of his. Not the exact words here but something similar, don't have time to look it up right now.

CHB

[marie glen]

wow so interesting reading all that. thnxs yes contradict makes sense. This is a verse i love to share in a universalist discussion. If you deny me [in you] I will deny you [denying me in you] [and carry on loving you in you :)]

[in brackets expands how I understand this, even though I may just say the normal bit in outside the brackets]

That's very interesting! I'll have to be pondering that. I know the sentiment is 100% correct and right on!

Hey could I ask for some prayers. I planning on visiting a different church tomorrow - Quaker - with my wife coming too. Could really do with it going well. Thanks. (I would put in the prayer area - but feel I know u guys here better ;)

   :Pray: :Pray: all goes super..

[JamesH]

2 Tim 2:12-If we endure,we will also reign with him. If we deny him,he also will deny us.

Would you translate 2 Tim the same way?

[marie glen]

      "if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;"

I always think, why is it so habitual for folks to associate "for ever" with these verses? Is Paul saying this is an eternal thing? Or when does He deny? During the reign? Actually I don't think there's any hint of time at all in the verse. :Chinscratch: very interesting..

[jugghead]

Good point MG, because that is also how I view the word "habitual" ..... just another form of "tradition"

If "tradition" was a person; a father, he gives birth to a son named "habit"

if "for ever" was a person; a father, he gives birth to a son named "end"

Since "for ever" is taken within the context of time rather than in the context of Christ, Christ being our "End"  ..... then "time" by default, becomes an enemy .... in which the seed of "fear" can be planted and grow into the "fear of death" in "this age" and in "the age to come" (after physical death) where then the "fear of death" will be cast out - will be put to death, by the purifying process of the "Lake of Fire" the baptism by Fire.

We will either experience this process (Baptism by Fire) in "this age" (the physical age) or after we die in the "age to come" (the Spiritual age)

Those who experience "the second death" (Baptism by Fire) before they physically die have no fear of physical death, death is not an end (an enemy) but a new beginning, therefore our fear of physical death is cast out, they see it as a transference from "one age to the next age" (there is more to this but am pushed by time in this age to go to work - my job)

And if all of this is taken out of the context of "time" as we understand it, then we see it is just a transfer from one place to another, from darkness into Light; in more words ...... FROM "an age of darkness" into "an age of Light" with "time" only being used as a tool to measure our growth in understanding in both ages, but without pride in this age by what we have come to understand about the "next age"; the next age becomes the next step in our growth in understanding

Just me rambling on in how I understand things

Blessings

[Simmo]

wow so interesting reading all that. thnxs yes contradict makes sense. This is a verse i love to share in a universalist discussion. If you deny me [in you] I will deny you [denying me in you] [and carry on loving you in you :)]

[in brackets expands how I understand this, even though I may just say the normal bit in outside the brackets]

That's very interesting! I'll have to be pondering that. I know the sentiment is 100% correct and right on!

Hey thnxs Marie, first one went well. I've more to add on the above but will respond in my next reply cause it follows on from there. Have a feeling reading the "mirror translation" was key to unlocking the above verse but will have to check to be sure. Could really do with a small group of brothers / sisters I could pray with regularly I think there might be a forum for that will have to check lol
Hey could I ask for some prayers. I planning on visiting a different church tomorrow - Quaker - with my wife coming too. Could really do with it going well. Thanks. (I would put in the prayer area - but feel I know u guys here better ;)

   :Pray: :Pray: all goes super..

Thnxs Marie, and the first week went well. I'll chat more bout those verses in replay to the next reply :)

[Simmo]

2 Tim 2:12-If we endure,we will also reign with him. If we deny him,he also will deny us.

Would you translate 2 Tim the same way?

Hi James, sorry for long delay, and yes the 12b - 13 following on from 12 in these verses from Timothy is key to unlocking my understanding of their meaning.

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

I read it like this:

12b If our [fleshly] man contradicts him [in us]
He [in heaven & in us] will contradict [our fleshly man - represented by Esau whom he 'hated' (figuratively only in reality he loved Esau, cared for Esau by sending an Angel to give sustainance, made a great nation of Esau and blessed Esau also).
For even if we (our memory of our fleshly old man) are faithless [in contradicting the reality of him in all of us]
He remains faithful [in us] never contradicting himself in heaven and in us.

lol idk if i will be making this clearer or less clearer but a favorite of mine many see it as threatening "just like to my mind I saw 'you cannot fight against God and win" as threatening initial even though it "felt" good hearing The Word of God. 

Now the verse in Timothy is one of my favorite "Gospel of Inclusion" verses. - He spoke many things in parabels.....


Simmo  :dsunny:

[sheila]

my  :2c: If we die with Him  we shall also ]live with Him[tasted death for every man..pattern for God's spirit/son/seed in flesh for

allmen]..ifthe same spirit be in ye as is in Christ Jesus.]

if weendure[seed/spiritoflove that never fails] we shall also reign with Him[all enemies under our feet/victory over allthe powerof

enemy]

if we disown[contradict] Him ,He will disown/contradict us[Iknow ye not...thus a spirit that fails the test of saying the Wordof Godcome

in flesh is of a different spirit [think differentspirit/satanspeakingthrough Peter/contradicting Jesus going to thecross..thenJesus saying

'get behindme,Satan!"]thus adifferent spirit is  speaking.[theadversary].and has no part in Him]and He disowns it speaking through us


..if we are faithless[put nofaith in Him as our saviour]He will remain faithful[in His love for us and laying down His life/fulfilling

His role as Saviour of the whole world as sent forby the Father.

For HE CAN NOT DISOWN HIMSELF[for He is Saviour of the world..redeemer..and we are His/bought with Hisblood] :2c:

[sheila]

you know..we can contradict Him so very quickly and easily without even knowing it[the sin in our flesh speaking against that

'Word of God come in flesh"and not even realize it.Thankfully,He prayed the Father to forgive us for not knowing what we do. :2c:

[marie glen]

in flesh is of a different spirit [think differentspirit/satanspeakingthrough Peter/contradicting Jesus going to thecross..thenJesus saying

'get behindme,Satan!"]thus adifferent spirit is  speaking.[theadversary].and has no part in Him]and He disowns it speaking through us

     :Chinscratch: ...that's very interesting, Sheila..

you know..we can contradict Him so very quickly and easily without even knowing it[the sin in our flesh speaking against that

'Word of God come in flesh"and not even realize it.Thankfully,He prayed the Father to forgive us for not knowing what we do. :2c:

          :cloud9: :cloud9: Amen!!

[marie glen]

       ...the first week went well.

     :thumbsup: I'm glad it went well!