How would an EU explain this verse to someone who's a skeptic of universalism who says this verse means Christ will reject you before the Father permanently?
Matthew 10:33-but whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven.
..in that it doesn't say "for ever" and "ever".. like the translators so often run with a verse or choose the most extreme possible application of a word.
Earlier in the chapter is when Jesus said a town that rejects him, it will be easier for Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment 'Day' than for that town. If it was me who was asked about it, I'd probably go into why I think Judgment 'Day' is a very long day indeed.. and how I figure if Jesus fulfilled the Spring Holy Days via His first advent, then the long second advent is prefigured by the Fall ones of Trumpets (Rev 8-11,13-19), Day of Atonement (Lev 23:26-32) and Tabernacles (Rev 21:3) - as the three peaks of the advent.
Making Judgment 'Day' to be a fulfillment of Day Of Atonement. And how it's likely(?) only at the end of Judgment 'Day' that it is said those whose names are (still?) not recorded in the Book of Life, will go to the lake of fire. (Which I think of as the baptism of fire all alive will go through but each in their own time.)
But mostly.. it's that whole thing of adding "forever" so many times that people read it when it hasn't even been inserted! In the interlinear versions of some verses, at least some of them which have been translated with "forever" in it, in the original, it's not even there as aionios! I don't know very much about Greek, but it seems to me if there's no sort of 'time' word in the verse, where did they get forever? Speaking of other verses besides Mt 10:33.. that forever is read so often and assumed it's now habitual to assume "forever" when thinking of condition after death. Rising still in one's sins, is simply assumed to be a forever (and ever) thing, but it doesn't really say that any where, as far as I can see..
When I first looked up forever in the Strong's Concordance book, I remember, how surprised I was that there was no forever. Soon enough I realized (dah) that it was "for" "ever".. But how elusive the verses became, as to forever! Then there's all the all verses, etc. It just becomes more and more dumbfounding how missed Universalism is! :faint:
also if it is taken within its original meaning "to contradict" it makes more sense .....
"But whosoever shall contradict Me before men, him will I also contradict before My Father which is in heaven"
Which in this understanding it lines up with "how you judge another, you shall be judged" or "how you measure another is how you shall be measured"
and by this it relates to "what you sow you shall reap" ..... if you sow contradiction so shall you reap contradiction ..... which relates back to Genesis in "producing seed after its kind"
Rick,
Tell me where you came up with 'contradict' as the original meaning for ἀρνέομαι?
I'm not challenging you on this, I'm just wondering, from where?
The Matthew 10:33 verse never really made sense to me as written, especially when you look at Peter's famous 3 denials! (same ἀρνέομαι).
Pat
Quote from: Patinak on January 17, 2018, 05:50:12 AM
Rick,
Tell me where you came up with 'contradict' as the original meaning for ἀρνέομαι?
I'm not challenging you on this, I'm just wondering, from where?
The Matthew 10:33 verse never really made sense to me as written, especially when you look at Peter's famous 3 denials! (same ἀρνέομαι).
Pat
E-Sword through its concordance from the KJV
Quote from: JamesH on January 16, 2018, 02:24:53 AM
How would an EU explain this verse to someone who's a skeptic of universalism who says this verse means Christ will reject you before the Father permanently?
Matthew 10:33-but whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven.
I enjoyed reading everyone posts :dsunny:
Hi James ,
Well when you read Matt 10 , we must realize Jesus was establishing a new and Living way to his chosen disciples , those 12 and the message was for them to Not be afraid of what man can do to them .. but where two or 3 are gathered in His name HE WOULD BE IN THE MIDST OF THEM with the Holy angels warriors of heaven and fighting for them with the SWORD of His mouth . the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH speaking .
At the time everyone was under the old law of Moses , the eye for eye and tooth for tooth and all the kingdom had come though violence ,
Jesus was telling them to expect opposition , the very same opposition he was rejected by and called the son of the devil
If you read Luke 12 they both are along the same accounts and message .
The Lord said He come to bring division , He was going the separate the old [ tree of knowledge of good and evil , the ministration of death and EXPOSING SIN ] from the new [ tree of Life ] reconciling the world though the gospel message by love and forgiveness of sin and covering sin with His own blood , He knew He was going to the cross to lay down his Life to take it back up again and receive total POWER and glory from the heavens earth and below , being both the Lord of the dead and the living , all would be HIS given by the Father ...
Having Him in our midst is far better than being on your own , this is what it means to me , because the Baptism of Christ death was to set the whole world on fire .."I have come to set the world on fire, and I wish it were already burning!
He baptizes us with Holy Spirit and fire ... making his messengers[angels ] spirits / winds and ministers a flame of
fire Hebrews 1 ;7 Regarding the angels, he says, "He sends his angels like the winds, his servants like flames of fire."
We have to remember two things about faith Jesus told Nicodemus everyone born of the Spirit is like the wind and you hear the sound of it , so are those born of faith , being the substance , this substance to me is the smearing of Holy Spirit oil and you become rubbed as a light , a flame , and are setting the world on fire , But the deposit , is the incorruptible seed , Word of God that never dies ...
and if the Lord had not left us a seed we also would be the same as Sodom and Gomorrah , those are the chosen out of the world that the Lord Himself said and Spoke about saying be in the world but not of it , staring with the twelve and adding to this daily John 17 this prayer is the anointing of the High Priestly Prayer........
Jesus opened heaven for all and is in the presence of God Himself interceding on our behalf , we are all depending on the mercy of God and just as it is given to you , you in turn must also be merciful to those whom need it just as you did ,
we all must come to the end of the age , that is under the law of Moses and come to Christ , He will make all things new
I do believe folks do not understand the way the bible speaks to us .especially Jesus words .. we are all as Adam under the old nature of sin and death and the law is good to put to death that old man of sinful nature on the cross and exposing the sin by the LIGHT OF DAY Christ
Matt 5 Binding on earth as it is in heaven and loose on earth as it is loosed in heaven
What does one bind the angels messenger bind up ?
49So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth....
Matthew 13:39
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
Matthew 13:40
As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
This age is those
bound under the law , just as it is written , those whom show no mercy will die without mercy under 2 or 3 witnesses , those whom depend and trust in this law
they are captive to it and tied up by it and need to loosed and freed from it , Just as Lazarus was , when Jesus /Truth set him free from death and clothed in grave clothes , Jesus Christ is this Resurrection .... that is always
He was and Is and will be the Resurrection Life .
So to me the world is a fiery place of burning and being consumed and we are told to keep our minds and hearts on the Lord and not the world unless we become entangled with it again ... nor turn back to the law and ministration of death , but press on and forward and never looking back , or become as Lots wife a pillar of salt OUR example .. Of looking back at our old life and not able to be free from sin nature but constantly exposing sin nature in ourselves and others , she was not set free when God gave her opportunity to flee and was consumed by it . as Sodom and Gomorrah
Paul said ,I want to know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified , from that point on he pressed forward and even received great opposition from the world , but counted it as joy to be like Jesus , His Master builder ,because He knew Gods grace was sufficient to cover him and every ones sins , giving the ministry of reconciliation to save all that is lost ...
Being in the presence of the Lord is the Holy Spirit and fire baptism , bearing fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT and fire to God , You are clean by the WORD I HAVE SPOKEN the truth sanctifies sets apart as or declare holy; consecrate , separated and freed from sin
John 15 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you.
Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you
bear fruit unless you remain in Me.... Stay with Jesus , to deny Him , would be foolish and suffer loss , your works are burned up /consumed as corrupted , but yet saved by fire , Just as Paul confirms by Jesus works
free gift eternal life in Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive .
Romans 6 The Wages of Sin
...22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life.
23For the wages of sin is death,
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. free gift of eternal life
The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon (in American English) and æon,
originally meant "life", "vital force" or "being", "generation" or "a period of time", though it tended to be translated as "age" in the sense of "ages", "forever", "timeless" or "for eternity".
Only the SPIRIT OF GOD IS timeless and made in Gods Image , HIS SON is our proof, incorruptible as raised up though death we Live though Him , as now bearing the corruptible image of Adam [mankind ] is temporary [age ] But God is making all things new , HE ALONE will be Glorified in that DAY ...https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+43%3A18%2CIsaiah+43%3A19%2CRevelation+21%3A5%2CIsaiah+65%3A17%2CEphesians+2%3A15%2CEphesians+4%3A24%2CHebrews+8%3A13&version=ESV (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+43%3A18%2CIsaiah+43%3A19%2CRevelation+21%3A5%2CIsaiah+65%3A17%2CEphesians+2%3A15%2CEphesians+4%3A24%2CHebrews+8%3A13&version=ESV)
o'wow...contradict makes so much more sense. Jesus said '..andye shallallfallaway" Peter contradicted the Lordwith 'notme"..and
reaped contradiction...denied Him 3 times before the cock crow.
What I also see in this is Peter's contradiction of himself to others and who he was, contradicting those who saw him as a disciple .....
1. This man was also with Him (Luke 22:56)
2. Thou art also of them (Luke 22:58)
3. This fellow was also with him (Luke 22:59)
If we do not believe who we are IN Christ when it is told to us, is that not contradicting Christ IN who Christ says we are?
What I also see is: mankind as a whole is Christ crucified, separated as Moses and Elias,
those of the law
and
those of the prophets, prophets of Grace
During the age of the law, they had the prophets of who was to come .... Christ, who is the Grace of God
now, since He has already come we have the prophets (or disciples) of Grace for ALL of mankind
That both (all) are reconciled IN Christ, mankind will become one when God causes both to work together as one in understanding, first individually and then corporately ..... it has to take place IN us first before it can be manifested IN the world, which we are seeing the signs of it now through the many different kinds of people coming into UR.
All have a purpose for its time (age), then "all in all", the age to come of which we speak, of which is the Unknown God of which Paul spoke
Quote from: jugghead on January 17, 2018, 03:27:21 AM
also if it is taken within its original meaning "to contradict" it makes more sense .....
"But whosoever shall contradict Me before men, him will I also contradict before My Father which is in heaven"
Which in this understanding it lines up with "how you judge another, you shall be judged" or "how you measure another is how you shall be measured"
and by this it relates to "what you sow you shall reap" ..... if you sow contradiction so shall you reap contradiction ..... which relates back to Genesis in "producing seed after its kind"
:thumbsup: oh! That makes a lot of sense.. but of course the translators chose the most extreme use of the word, and it's habitual for everyone to assume forever should be inserted..
http://biblehub.com/greek/720.htm -
#G720 arnéomai – properly, deny (refuse); hence, contradict, refuse to affirm or to confess (identify with); disown (repudiate). See also 4716 /staurós ("cross").Quote from: Patinak on January 17, 2018, 05:50:12 AM
Rick,
Tell me where you came up with 'contradict' as the original meaning for ἀρνέομαι?
I'm not challenging you on this, I'm just wondering, from where?
The Matthew 10:33 verse never really made sense to me as written, especially when you look at Peter's famous 3 denials! (same ἀρνέομαι).
Pat
:shock: :doh: That makes a lot of sense too! :thumbsup:
And amen Rose.. "the former things" (temptations, judging, evil thoughts of any sort) "shall not come to mind"
- Isaiah 65:17: --
World English Bible
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Young's Literal Translation
For, lo, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart. :banana: :banana:
ET - the doctrine - contradicts Him, the Logos, Love.. (...? makes us 'judges' - "what God has declared clean call it not unclean.." ...? When we are aware of CU/UR, we view our fellow person who is not yet saved, differently.. No longer contradicting God's attribute of "mercy" and "love" and "
righteous judgment".)
Seeing all of this in Day One of Genesis in that God separated the light from the darkness
Separated Grace from the law (Christ crucified), the law understood as "darkness" in the sense of "not clearly understood (seen)"
but now they (law and grace/ law and the prophets) are being reconciled in One, that One being Christ with the end result being "all in all"
The transfiguration is a picture of the full work of God, showing all of physical time (seen as spiritual growth of mankind) in this one example,
wow so interesting reading all that. thnxs yes contradict makes sense. This is a verse i love to share in a universalist discussion. If you deny me [in you] I will deny you [denying me in you] [and carry on loving you in you :)]
[in brackets expands how I understand this, even though I may just say the normal bit in outside the brackets]
Hey could I ask for some prayers. I planning on visiting a different church tomorrow - Quaker - with my wife coming too. Could really do with it going well. Thanks. (I would put in the prayer area - but feel I know u guys here better ;)
Yes, this makes sense. Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24) "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me". Also Paul said, If we are not in Christ then we are none of his. Not the exact words here but something similar, don't have time to look it up right now.
CHB
Quote from: Simmo on January 20, 2018, 03:42:47 PM
wow so interesting reading all that. thnxs yes contradict makes sense. This is a verse i love to share in a universalist discussion. If you deny me [in you] I will deny you [denying me in you] [and carry on loving you in you :)]
[in brackets expands how I understand this, even though I may just say the normal bit in outside the brackets]
That's very interesting! I'll have to be pondering that. I know the sentiment is 100% correct and right on!
Quote
Hey could I ask for some prayers. I planning on visiting a different church tomorrow - Quaker - with my wife coming too. Could really do with it going well. Thanks. (I would put in the prayer area - but feel I know u guys here better ;)
:Pray: :Pray: all goes super..
2 Tim 2:12-If we endure,we will also reign with him. If we deny him,he also will deny us.
Would you translate 2 Tim the same way?
"if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;"
I always think, why is it so habitual for folks to associate "for ever" with these verses? Is Paul saying this is an eternal thing? Or when does He deny? During the reign? Actually I don't think there's any hint of time at all in the verse. :Chinscratch: very interesting..
Good point MG, because that is also how I view the word "habitual" ..... just another form of "tradition"
If "tradition" was a person; a father, he gives birth to a son named "habit"
if "for ever" was a person; a father, he gives birth to a son named "end"
Since "for ever" is taken within the context of time rather than in the context of Christ, Christ being our "End" ..... then "time" by default, becomes an enemy .... in which the seed of "fear" can be planted and grow into the "fear of death" in "this age" and in "the age to come" (after physical death) where then the "fear of death" will be cast out - will be put to death, by the purifying process of the "Lake of Fire" the baptism by Fire.
We will either experience this process (Baptism by Fire) in "this age" (the physical age) or after we die in the "age to come" (the Spiritual age)
Those who experience "the second death" (Baptism by Fire) before they physically die have no fear of physical death, death is not an end (an enemy) but a new beginning, therefore our fear of physical death is cast out, they see it as a transference from "one age to the next age" (there is more to this but am pushed by time in this age to go to work - my job)
And if all of this is taken out of the context of "time" as we understand it, then we see it is just a transfer from one place to another, from darkness into Light; in more words ...... FROM "an age of darkness" into "an age of Light" with "time" only being used as a tool to measure our growth in understanding in both ages, but without pride in this age by what we have come to understand about the "next age"; the next age becomes the next step in our growth in understanding
Just me rambling on in how I understand things
Blessings
Quote from: marie glen on January 21, 2018, 04:18:38 AM
Quote from: Simmo on January 20, 2018, 03:42:47 PM
wow so interesting reading all that. thnxs yes contradict makes sense. This is a verse i love to share in a universalist discussion. If you deny me [in you] I will deny you [denying me in you] [and carry on loving you in you :)]
[in brackets expands how I understand this, even though I may just say the normal bit in outside the brackets]
That's very interesting! I'll have to be pondering that. I know the sentiment is 100% correct and right on!
Quote
Hey thnxs Marie, first one went well. I've more to add on the above but will respond in my next reply cause it follows on from there. Have a feeling reading the "mirror translation" was key to unlocking the above verse but will have to check to be sure. Could really do with a small group of brothers / sisters I could pray with regularly I think there might be a forum for that will have to check lol
Hey could I ask for some prayers. I planning on visiting a different church tomorrow - Quaker - with my wife coming too. Could really do with it going well. Thanks. (I would put in the prayer area - but feel I know u guys here better ;)
:Pray: :Pray: all goes super..
Thnxs Marie, and the first week went well. I'll chat more bout those verses in replay to the next reply :)
Quote from: JamesH on January 25, 2018, 09:45:26 PM
2 Tim 2:12-If we endure,we will also reign with him. If we deny him,he also will deny us.
Would you translate 2 Tim the same way?
Hi James, sorry for long delay, and yes the
12b - 13 following on from 12 in these verses from Timothy is key to unlocking my understanding of their meaning.
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himselfI read it like this:
12b If our [fleshly] man contradicts him [in us]
He [in heaven & in us] will contradict [our fleshly man - represented by Esau whom he 'hated' (figuratively only in reality he loved Esau, cared for Esau by sending an Angel to give sustainance, made a great nation of Esau and blessed Esau also).
For even if we (our memory of our fleshly old man) are faithless [in contradicting the reality of him in all of us]
He remains faithful [in us] never contradicting himself in heaven and in us.
lol idk if i will be making this clearer or less clearer but a favorite of mine many see it as threatening "just like to my mind I saw 'you cannot fight against God and win" as threatening initial even though it "felt" good hearing The Word of God.
Now the verse in Timothy is one of my favorite "Gospel of Inclusion" verses. - He spoke many things in parabels.....
Simmo :dsunny:
my :2c: If we die with Him we shall also ]live with Him[tasted death for every man..pattern for God's spirit/son/seed in flesh for
allmen]..ifthe same spirit be in ye as is in Christ Jesus.]
if weendure[seed/spiritoflove that never fails] we shall also reign with Him[all enemies under our feet/victory over allthe powerof
enemy]
if we disown[contradict] Him ,He will disown/contradict us[Iknow ye not...thus a spirit that fails the test of saying the Wordof Godcome
in flesh is of a different spirit [think differentspirit/satanspeakingthrough Peter/contradicting Jesus going to thecross..thenJesus saying
'get behindme,Satan!"]thus adifferent spirit is speaking.[theadversary].and has no part in Him]and He disowns it speaking through us
..if we are faithless[put nofaith in Him as our saviour]He will remain faithful[in His love for us and laying down His life/fulfilling
His role as Saviour of the whole world as sent forby the Father.
For HE CAN NOT DISOWN HIMSELF[for He is Saviour of the world..redeemer..and we are His/bought with Hisblood] :2c:
you know..we can contradict Him so very quickly and easily without even knowing it[the sin in our flesh speaking against that
'Word of God come in flesh"and not even realize it.Thankfully,He prayed the Father to forgive us for not knowing what we do. :2c:
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2018, 01:48:15 AM
in flesh is of a different spirit [think differentspirit/satanspeakingthrough Peter/contradicting Jesus going to thecross..thenJesus saying
'get behindme,Satan!"]thus adifferent spirit is speaking.[theadversary].and has no part in Him]and He disowns it speaking through us
:Chinscratch: ...that's very interesting, Sheila..
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2018, 02:00:19 AM
you know..we can contradict Him so very quickly and easily without even knowing it[the sin in our flesh speaking against that
'Word of God come in flesh"and not even realize it.Thankfully,He prayed the Father to forgive us for not knowing what we do. :2c:
:cloud9: :cloud9: Amen!!
Quote from: Simmo on January 31, 2018, 11:50:28 PM
...the first week went well.
:thumbsup: I'm glad it went well!